Raising Capable Kids (with Lenore Skenazy) #103

0:08Jon @WholeParent Today, I am joined by the one and only Lenore Scanese, journalist, speaker, and founder of the Free Range Kids Movement and the president of Let Grow, an organization working to make childhood independence normal again. You might know her as the mom who made national headlines as the worst mom in America when she let her nine-year-old ride the New York City subway by themselves.

0:33Jon @WholeParent What followed was a much bigger conversation about fear and safety and independence and what modern childhood has become. Her book, Free Range Kids, one of my early uh introductions to this movement, helped start a movement around raising kids who are safe, self-reliant, and uh remarkably capable without parenting from a place of constant anxiety.

0:55Jon @WholeParent I'm really excited for this conversation because it connects so deeply to what we've been talking about here at Whole Parent and exploring in kind of this prolonged series about what kids lose when adults organize childhood for them around fear and control and constant supervision, and what happens when we actually begin to trust them again.

1:15Jon @WholeParent Lenore, thank you so much for being here today.

1:18 Thank you for that introduction. I've I've done a bunch of podcasts, and so far that's my favorite. Thank you.

1:23Jon @WholeParent Well, you know, you are a hero of mine. Uh we've also had another let grow kind of hero, Peter Gray, on the podcast not long ago. And you talk about similar things, but I want to really get into the autonomy piece for you and the free play piece for you. A lot of our conversation with Peter was about this whole dialogue about phones and technology.

1:47Jon @WholeParent And I think you and I could talk about that ad nauseum for the next hour if we wanted to. But I think what's more helpful is actually to go into like the the other aspect of that. You obviously are one of the co-authors, our contributors to the anxious generation. And the part of the book that you helped to write was about free and autonomous play and kind of releasing these uh anxieties that we have.

2:12Jon @WholeParent So what do you think uh or do you think maybe I should first do that? Do you think that we are raising the most supervised generation of children in history? And if so, what do you think that that does to kids psychologically?

2:26 So let me ask you, how many people are going to be seeing this versus hearing this? Because I just have an amazing graph that that can just explain everything in one um lousy but beautiful but uh impressive graph.

2:38Jon @WholeParent Well, a lot of people are going to be thank you for teeing me up for that. A lot of people are going to be listening to this, but the whole parent podcast just moved over to video platforms. So if you're listening on the three most popular platforms, on Apple, on Spotify, or on YouTube, you should be able to watch this video as well as listen.

2:58Jon @WholeParent So may maybe the majority of people are going to be watching. I want you to show it to us.

3:03 I'm going to show it to you, but I will also walk us through this, which is that there was just a study done uh this year by the Institute for Family Studies that asked parents, what age will you let them, you let your kids, you know, leave the house, leave the block, leave the neighborhood. And the amazing thing to me is that the majority of parents of kids age 14 will not let them leave the block.

3:28Jon @WholeParent Wow.

3:29 Yeah. Yeah. To me, that's that's just that's just wild. Um, especially because having been on this beat for so long, I've collected all sorts of interesting, you know, factoids and uh studies, and there was a uh a series of child development books. I know you're getting your PhD in child development.

3:47 Maybe you've read these books um they were out by either Louise Bates Ames or Louise Ames Bates, I can't remember. But either she's one one or the other is her. And she wrote a uh a series of books in the 70s, reprinted in the 80s, about different age kids. And uh the one I'm gonna refer to is Your Six-Yearld Loving and Defiant.

4:07 And this was a book for uh just about what kids should be like as they enter first grade. And she gives a checklist of things that neurotypical six-year-olds could do as they start the school year. Um, stand on one foot for ten seconds, you know, count to a hundred by tens, uh, tell their left hand from their right hand.

4:29 And of course, can they go four to eight blocks in any direction, you know, to school, to a store, to a friend's house, or to the park. So the graph I made, which you're hopefully uh now uh YouTube watchers will see, shows that this is the this is the one block that we allow 14-year-olds to walk now, and this is the four to eight blocks that we allowed six-year-olds, kids less than half their age to walk now.

4:59 And it's it's like a it's like a skyscraper next to a hut if you look at the actual graph that I made, and as I said, I'm I'm not great at making graphs, but the but the point is there, which is that how did we go in a generation or two from trusting kids to be in the world, competent, looking both ways and crossing the street, knocking at a friend's house, getting a popsicle, being part of the world, to constraining kids on their block when they're 14, which is your your freshman, loving and defiant.

5:32 And and it is such a a wild disparity that that's what just keeps me talking about it. It's like it's as if we started thinking that, like, well, of course, we shouldn't teach math until children are 16, or you know, we should keep children in the crib until, you know, until we have to pry them out. I mean, it's it's a very different way of looking at kids, but it doesn't have anything to do with reality because in two generations the you know, we have not evolved or devolved to the point where kids can't do anything, but we treat them as if they can't.

6:06Jon @WholeParent Yeah, and what's so interesting is that actually in your example of like waiting to teach kids math until they're 16, we actually demand far higher levels of academic competency. Right? And we demand far higher levels of cognitive competency. We're demanding.

6:25 And sit still in competency. Yeah, and stare at the teacher in competency.

6:30Jon @WholeParent Totally, totally. And and we like we we we demand these levels of almost developmentally inappropriate from our kids. And one reason why we have resisted kind of traditional school is because it is not even traditional anymore, right? Traditional school is was no screens. Traditional school was kindergarten was not called first grade for a reason.

6:56Jon @WholeParent Like it was it was fundamentally different. It was about emotional and social emotional development and or what we used to call play. Play. Yeah. And now it's you know, if your kid can't read, are they really ready for kindergarten yet? Which is which is such a difference. And so we've kind of, in some ways, we've expected too much of kids.

7:17Jon @WholeParent And in other ways, we vastly underestimate their competence and their their ability.

7:24 It it is so interesting, right? Because it is the yin and the yang, and I I wish I had it in front of me. I I have my package waiting for me at home, of these developmental um uh what would I call them, like a lesson plan that are for preschool teachers. And the lessons are for teaching your child to hop.

7:44 You know, tell the child to stand on one foot while gently lifting the other. Now recommend that they lift themselves off the ground with both feet, but only one foot lands. So it's this gobbledygook of ex you know, excess explanation of something that all kids do automatically. But we've turned it into this boring, didactic, academic lesson.

8:07 And imagine being a teacher and standing up there and having to teach children, okay, today, children, we will frolic. To frolic, we must, you know, right, get four feet away from each other because we don't want to hit each other and you need enough personal space. It's just Exactly. It is such a weird, I mean, that's what I keep saying.

8:24 It's just a strange way of looking at kids. Yes, they should be reading, but of course they can't understand how to hop. There's a there's a there's a whole page on how to bounce a ball, and it's like hold the ball in front of you and let it go and notice that when it hits the ground that it comes back up.

8:39 It's like, who doesn't notice that?

8:41Jon @WholeParent Yeah, it was it's like it's like common core for play. Right? It's like it's like how do I how do I like how do I drain all the fun?

8:51 Exactly.

8:53Jon @WholeParent How do you just suck every ounce of creative expression?

8:57 And I think it's and assume no no um no curiosity, right? You know, no play drive, no, no desire to have fun, no desire to move. I mean, all of this is rewritten as if you've got this very rudimentary robot in front of you that you need to program, and otherwise it won't do anything. And that's that's like if we're gonna get to like the basic idea that has changed now, which is we think that we must and can and should control every possible input and output of our kids, which is why we have the 14-year-olds still on the same block, which is why we track them at schools, which is why we want the pictures coming home from the daycare and from the camp, you know, was my child smiling in the corner

9:44 of this picture today? If not, I'm gonna pick up the phone and call the director. And and it all has to do, I mean, it's like this is why parents are so anxious now, because if you're told that you must know every single thing that is happening to your child every single instance, and somehow be able to interpret whether that's good or bad or needs tweaking or a therapist or a coach or a tutor, um, you are going to be driven crazy.

10:09 And that's what the Surgeon General figured out a couple of years ago, that that parenting has become impossible, and parents are completely stressed, and childhood has become impossible, and children are completely stressed, and to me it's the same, it's like you didn't write about it this way. I think it's the exact same problem, which is that you've eviscerated childhood from the kids.

10:30 You know, they're always in a car, they're always in an adult organized activity, and then you've made the adult always be driving the car and always be running the activity or dropping them off at the activity or watching the activity. And so all you need to do, it's I had a friend who once explained there used to be a couple of different worlds when I think when you were growing up, and certainly when I was growing up, there was the kid world, which is filled with, you know, kicking and hopping, right?

10:54 And having fun and candy and hopping on your bike and you know, and and getting mad and then figuring out how to get over that and going back to the ballgame. And then there was parent world, which was extremely boring to us kids, but fascinating to parents. We're talking about politics, we're talking about who's getting an operation, who lost their job, who's having an affair.

11:12 Interesting if you're an adult. Um, and then there was some family time when you were together at dinner or you were on a vacation or you were at, you know, church or synagogue. But now it's just all the same. And even when the parents aren't with the kids physically, they are getting this torrent of information from all the organizations and from the schools that are showing them.

11:32 And then you have tracking, which is showing you exactly where your kid is, and you've geofenced them, and why did he go a block in the wrong direction? Is he being kidnapped or is he getting a candy bar? Either way, I better check in because either way it's bad for them. Right? Maybe one worse. And so it's it's just there's no break from each other.

11:50 And actually, if you could tease apart those worlds again, kids would be happier, parents would be happier, and everyone would be less anxious because you're not being micromanaged and you're not expected to create the perfect child. And if you you know turn away to sneeze for a second, all bets are off.

12:06Jon @WholeParent Yeah. You know, and I I know that we're not here to talk about the anxious generation, but I think that one of the things that we mentioned before we jumped on and hit record was that I think that one of the great tragedies of the massive success that the Anxious Generation has been is that when I read the book on the first day that it came out, I mean, literally the first day that it came out, I read it cover to cover.

12:31Jon @WholeParent Uh partially that was of sex.

12:33 That's a fast reader. I mean, that's like I couldn't do that.

12:36Jon @WholeParent Well, I w so first first I went to seminary, so I had to be able to read books that long in a day. That was just part of the seminary education. But also, and I won't say that I read every word, it was more, you know, a reading reading for information. Um part of this was selfish impulse that I needed.

12:51Jon @WholeParent I needed evidence for what I was saying in Punishment Free Parenting, which of course you gave me so beautifully. But when I when I walked away from that book, my first instinct was not these people hate phones, or these people hate social media. It was there is there is some stuff going on with social media.

13:10Jon @WholeParent We can, you know, in another podcast, another time we can talk about whether how how how solid that data is and and or or isn't. But my main takeaway was actually the the bigger piece of that book to me, maybe even more words dedicated to it in the manuscript, which is that uh free and autonomous play is what is causing and driving anxiety.

13:33Jon @WholeParent I don't think that a book solely about social media and and technology use for kids would could be called the Anxious Generation because it really is a combination of the lack of free and autonomous play. So draw that line for me. You obviously uh have been doing this a long time since you had a nine-year-old who rode the subway, but draw that line for me, and that was new for you in that moment.

13:55Jon @WholeParent You know, that was a kind of a cultural zeitgeist moment where all of a sudden uh that that became this hot topic. Uh but but draw the line for me, because I can't even imagine if that article came out today, how what the blowback would be, you know, in comparison to what it was like then. And and where do you think that this started?

14:18 Okay, so I'll just so briefly the the the subway incident was that our younger son, who was nine, had been asking me and my husband if we would take him someplace and let him find his own way home by subway. And I did. He did find his own way home by subway. We live in New York City, he's on the subways all the time, so this was not something he couldn't do.

14:35Jon @WholeParent It was like He wasn't he wasn't kidnapped. You didn't find him kidnapped, no. You didn't find him in Algeria or something. You like at home just as he made her home just exactly as you expected.

14:47 Right. Um a little happier, a little taller, you know, uh proud that he had done something in the real world. And the blowback was because not only had I let him do something by himself, also everybody thinks that the New York City subways are, you know, basically hell. And, you know, they're they're not beautiful, but they are really safe, and six million people take them every day, and so I knew that if anything was going wrong, he could find somebody to help him, and in fact he did.

15:12 He was confused about the uptown versus downtown trains. And he asked a stranger who did not kidnap him, but actually said no, go to this way and took the right train. Um the the blowback in part was I also didn't give him a phone. Uh and that was considered um, you know, insane. But I I wanted him to see if he could do it by himself, and I gave him back then there were there were there were uh you know phone booths.

15:37 There were still public phones, because this is almost 20 years ago, and so I gave him some quarters, you know, if you desperately need to call me. But I really thought that he could do this by himself, and and that was what I was trying to say in my article, is just that we've forgotten how much kids can do on their own.

15:52 And so when when the anxious generation came up, so so John, Jonathan Haidt, and I, and Peter Gray, and uh a man named uh Dan Chuckman all together started let grow. And our whole goal was to make it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back some independence. So that was before phones became an issue.

16:16 And you know, whatever issue phones are, even if you took away every phone in America from everybody under 32, that would still not change how different childhood had already become before the phones. And that's what LeG Gros was was really dedicated to. It's to looking at how come we stop letting kids do almost anything on their own.

16:40 And it's not just free play. I mean, the subway ride is not play. I mean, it's fun and it's exciting, but it really just independence. Can I make my way in the world? And so um Jonathan Height talks about phones being an experience blocker because when you're on your phone, you're not on your bike, you're not baking, right?

16:59 You're not doing something in the 3D real world. But the original experience blocker is parental fear because we really started taking away kids' chance to go outside, to knock on a friend's door long before the phones came along. It really things changed, I'd say, and and John says too, in the 80s, with the with the ramping up of the idea of stranger danger, uh, with pictures of missing kids on milk cartons that were missing little asterisk that should have said missing, I was taken in a custodial dispute between my divorced parents.

17:35 Or I ran away after mom married a jerk. The vast majority of kids who who are missing are not taken by strangers, right? And there isn't, you know, it's just we really got the the percentages wrong, and and you might have read this or heard me say this before, but I will ask you, since your listeners slash viewers might not know, it's like if you wanted your child to be kidnapped by a stranger, how long would you have to keep them outside without you supervising them for them to be statistically likely to be taken?

18:07Jon @WholeParent I can hold up my book and flip to the page where I asked that very question.

18:11 All right. Uh let's hear the answer.

18:12Jon @WholeParent Uh yeah, I I let me see, let me see if I can find it easily. But um I believe it's in the uh the boundaries, the boundaries chapter. I think it's like 10,000 years, right? Is that is that about right?

18:26 You're off by a factor of several hundred thousand, but yes, you're getting there. Right.

18:30Jon @WholeParent Yeah. So it's so what's what is the answer?

18:32 Because I'm not the answer is is seven hundred and fifty thousand years.

18:36Jon @WholeParent Seven hundred and fifty thousand.

18:39 You know, but ten thousand works.

18:40Jon @WholeParent You know, it was yeah, it was yeah. Oh, there we go. There we go. Yeah, I found it here. Man, that's cra that for on page exactly 100 for those looking. There you go. Punishment preparenting. But but that that's such a crazy statistic for parents. So what do you say to those parents who say, uh, I'm just keeping my child safe?

19:02Jon @WholeParent Right? What do you think that they're misunderstanding about the difference between real danger and let's call it imagined danger?

22:40 Well, of course, nobody feels that they're imagining it. And and all the instances that have ever, you know, made it to the press have sort of borne their way into our brains. And so I understand the fear. I mean, there's actually a psychological explanation that I'm sure you know this, the availability heuristic.

22:58 The easier it is for you to um bring something up in your brain from like the files that are there, the more likely you think it is to happen. And of course, I was just reading about Law and Order SVU is the longest running um drama on television. I mean, it has just surpassed every every metric. It's just amazing.

23:19 And and actually somebody was writing about how it was different from Law and Order. Law and Order was really about law, like arresting a person, and order, you know, going to trial.

23:29Jon @WholeParent Getting a conviction, yeah.

23:30 Right. But this is Sam Waters. Yeah. I I had Sam Waterson come speak at my college long ago. I I loved him even before Law and Waterstone. Anyways, the point being that now it is a lot more graphic. There's a lot more of the, you know, the the actual terror and horror of, you know, the idea of a child or somebody else being being snatched and and violated.

23:51 And it and it and it is visceral. So I understand the fear. But there is also um, you know, that's the fear of them being taken, which is, as we've discussed, extremely unlikely. The the opposite fear, and the fear that people are starting to feel, I'd say, more about phones and social media, is one that we should also feel about um kids not getting any experience in the real world, not seeing that we trust them, not being able to go to the store, buy something, and realize, oh my God, I forgot to get the change, and then the embarrassment and the ultimate triumph of going back and saying, excuse me, um, I forgot to get the change.

24:33 Oh here, I was hoping you'd come back. Or going past a dog that barks and you're you're startled, but then you realize, like, oh no, it's a friendly dog and he just wants me to wave. You just your your children are are waiting, their brains are waiting for the real world and experiencing it to develop them.

24:53 You're you're studying child development. Is that not true? Right? That kids need to be interacting, especially with their friends, without an adult there and figuring out, you know, what are we going to do today? And and um, was the ball in or out, or can we both be the moms because it's boring to be the baby?

25:10 You know? Just all these interactions are really great for the kids. So with by taking out a certain risk, however minimal it is, the the risk of them standing alone at the bus stop or walking to school, it doesn't mean that there's no risk. It just means you're introducing another risk, which is what does it mean to be um not trusted and not developing these daily social emotional skills that only happen when a kid is making their own way.

25:38 So you know, one is dramatic, one is on law and order. You don't see the, you know, you don't see time-lapse photography from the kid on, you know, on a supervised play date at seven to them at 32 having trouble at work because that's a pretty, pretty long show. But it doesn't mean that there isn't that risk as well.

25:59Jon @WholeParent And I don't I wonder about this. I wonder if you can speak to this. One of the things that I often think when I think about stranger danger and and these other what we'll call overprotection is that actually we make those horrible things more likely to happen because our kids do not get exposure to how to avoid on how to avoid those things.

26:24Jon @WholeParent Like for example, this is something that happened in our front yard maybe a year ago. I basically my kids play outside with kids next door every day. And they play in the front yard, they play in the backyard, and the parents next door are from Jordan and so they have a a lower threshold, they have a greater threshold for autonomy.

26:46Jon @WholeParent They're not constantly watching them than many American families. But they're also they have also been inculcated and indoctrinated to a uh to some extent into the American Stranger Danger idea. And so a guy pulls up uh and we have a sign outside of our house that people regularly stop and read because it's a historic home and it has some information about the person who built it and this inventor.

27:11Jon @WholeParent It also happens to be a stop on the Pokemon Go app. So people stop there for that reason as well. But pulls up gotta catch him all pulls to the side and I don't know if he was reading the sign from his car. I don't know if he was um uh doing you know checking into the polka stop or whatever I don't know if he was just a you know a utility guy who just needed to pull over and use his phone but he pulls to the side and they were all playing in the front yard and they he saw them and he said hey that's it and I saw this from the front porch and the kids their kids ran inside and my son kind of followed them in and he said and the the story came back the next day to me and they said were you outside

27:56Jon @WholeParent when that guy tried to kidnap us and I said tell me more about that and he said they said well you know he he stopped in a he had a car a big car it was like a minivan so got a big car and he stopped and he tried to get our attention to get us to go into the van and I thought that was so interesting because my son who has many has has been taught from a very young age go if you if you want ketchup at McDonald's or whatever, go ask for it.

28:30Jon @WholeParent Right? In fact my son exclusively asks for water at McDonald's I never do because when he asks they don't charge him because he's they charge you for water if an adult charge you for water at McDonald's so it's 30 cents or something and I don't want to pull out my credit card for it. So I I'd sell I I send him right to save 30 cents.

28:48Jon @WholeParent I'm that cheap. And he and he he's talks to strangers all the time. And he said I don't think that guy was trying to kidnap him he just said hi. I don't think that that's you know if if he had told me to get into his car and don't tell you will you help me? Yes right don't tell your mom or dad I have something secret to show you in my car that would have been one thing but he just said hi.

29:11Jon @WholeParent But these kids because they had no exposure any exposure felt like a threat. And so I wonder sometimes have you come across that where the limited exposure actually makes kids and I think about this because then that that safe adult the adult that they think is safe who we know statistically is more likely to harm them right right there.

29:33Jon @WholeParent We say right stranger danger stranger danger stranger danger and then it's an uncle stranger danger stranger danger stranger danger and then it's the the religious leader or it's the person from church or synagogue or mosque. What what happens then if they don't have that exposure? So sometimes I wonder if that's right if that's a real thing.

29:52 So um there's so many things I want to talk about. I'm gonna start by talking about something called primals. I don't know if you've read about primals primals are your world view you know do you think that most people are pretty good that the world is pretty you know pretty fair pretty decent um or do you think that everyone is out to get you and don't be a patsy and you know only suckers trust um the there was a huge long study done of um kids raised some of them with um uh you know a nice worldview right that the primal was that the world is pretty good people are pretty nice um versus the you know suspect everybody of the worst and both sets of parents both types of parents are trying to give

30:40 their kids the optimal childhood that they think will set them up for a good life right I mean nobody's trying to to undermine their kids but the ones who were giving them I'd say the negative primal the that you cannot trust anybody and and you're a jerk if you do and you'll be taken advantage of and let me let me set you up for success, they were not set up for success.

31:01 They were studied over the decades and the people with the with the the mean world primal did worse on almost every measure their health their jobs their marriages their mental health and so it it can feel like you're setting your kid up for um wisdom but actually it's it's the opposite you've created this distrust and when I think about the studies done now of the the generations my generation boomer we're the ones who trust the most and then it keeps going down and the current generation of young people has the lowest trust ever recorded.

31:40 And and if we think that trust is something that not only you know helps a culture but helps the individual succeed in terms of having a better relationship and having a better life and even better mental health you don't want to send your kids out thinking that every time somebody says hi to you, they are not only a danger they're they're out to murder you right that is not going to help you.

32:03 So one of the things that um that gets that has been thwarted by not giving kids enough experience in the real world interacting with strangers with friends with other people's parents with with the world is that if you think about what a childhood used to be and we were looking at that chart before where six year olds were walking around the neighborhood versus now not even allowed off the block, every interaction is a chance to learn a little bit.

32:31 Oh that guy was a jerk but now he's become a little nicer or I won't talk to him again he's always gruff or that lady is so nice or that was really fun let's try it again. Every human interaction is calibrating your risk ometer right and and generally since most people are pretty good and don't wish ill on children you you get a pretty realistic view of the world.

32:56 But if you wait till kids are 14 to let them go on their first you know visit to the bodega um on their own what you've deprived them of is all these these mini calibrations and I think of it as sort of the equivalent of learning another language. You know if you learn a language before you're 11, 12 13, you can speak it without an accent, right?

33:20 It just it comes so easily to you because it's just part of the air you breathe. And it doesn't mean you can't learn a language later on but it's harder. You have an accent and you're not as fluid as comfortable as fluent literally fluent as it so why would we deprive our kids of this opportunity to become really successful at understanding people and risk and opportunity because we're trying to keep them safe.

33:47 You've kept them safe from something they actually need that isn't dangerous.

33:53Jon @WholeParent I want to ask you a broader question. And it's what do you think childhood is actually for oh god that's a really broad question. Like why like what what what should be our goal as parents? I I know a lot of parents intellectually may agree with everything we're saying. They're still caught in the grips of fear and a culture they don't want to be that one parent who's letting their kid play out to go to the park by themselves.

34:22Jon @WholeParent They you know they know that they're gonna you look here all these stories not just the stories of the kids getting kidnapped but the stories of the parents having child protective services called because they love people that's why I have to say let grow has changed helped change the law in 13 states that have passed reasonable childhood independence laws that say neglect is when you put your kid in obvious and serious likely danger as opposed to any time you take your eyes off them.

34:48 And now there's a law that's been uh proposed in Congress. So hopefully that will pass and we won't have to worry about child protective services ever mistaking trust or independence or even poverty for neglect. Neglect is really something serious. And neglect is really abuse. Like when you're by the time you're really neglecting a kid that is abuse.

35:07 But but calibrating exactly what age you should let your kid walk to the park or play outside, that should be left to the parents. Okay.

35:14Jon @WholeParent Trevor Burrus And making that mistake is is is it's an acceptable mistake to make for parents. Like they're not going to always get this right.

35:23 Aaron Ross Powell Right and and also what you you know what one person considers a mistake another person considers wise parenting. So let's just like get ourselves out of parenting surveillance business unless a child is truly endangered unless a child is really being hurt.

35:39 Okay.

35:39 But what is the purpose of of childhood is really interesting to me and I was thinking like how would I answer that? It's an odd question. And then I started thinking like well let's think about what kids are programmed by evolution to to want and to do and what they seem to be programmed to want is to keep doing more by themselves.

36:01 Like I mean the the the phrase that you hear kids saying the most exultantly is I did it myself right it's like whether they tied their shoes or walked to school or made the you know the baking soda volcano you know doing something by themselves is is a great desire right and and then when you think of like how how our parents hardwired yes we're we're we're hardwired to love our children and to protect our children but the most exciting moment for us is when our kids do something by themselves.

36:33 I'll ask you I mean like is like when give me an example of the time you were most proud of one of your kids like just something that pops into your mind.

36:41Jon @WholeParent Yeah when they learned I mean this is a lot of what I write about in my new book that I just turned the manuscript in yesterday but I on it's it's all about siblings and when my kids learn not only do things by themselves but choose to ask a sibling for help. Right? Choose to be adaptive in that way I get I think of those moments as doubly proud because I'm both proud of the often the younger the younger sibling for having the resilience to to to push forward and try and do that hard thing.

37:17Jon @WholeParent But I'm also proud of their sibling for for moving towards them and saying I can help you with that. So I think those are the moments when I find that I'm most proud not only when my kids do things independently when they do things interdependently and collectively independently of adults.

37:35 Yeah I would be proud of that too trying to think if that ever happened in my kid's life no but the point is what you're saying is a couple things is you're proud of them figuring something out on their own and you're proud of what I would call um not just siblings but uh the the idea of mixed ages being able to give each other something that you know your four-year-old might not be able to do on their own but here I'll you know I'll take you there or here I'll point out how to do it or follow me.

38:05 And so one of the other drives in kids is to play and to be in a group of kids of different ages, the younger kids trying to be like the older kids the older kids gradually learning how to be empathic and leaders and kind and wise because they are entrusted there's the five year old who's taking care of the two year old.

38:27 There's the 10 year old who's teaching the seven year old how to play hearts right and then there's the seven year old learning not to you know cry or run away from the game because he lost because he doesn't want to look like a baby in front of the 12 year olds who have a lot you know deigned to let him play.

38:45 And so it must be that these are what childhood is about. It's about this drive for autonomy, the drive for friendship and connectedness and this drive for um for play which is where they're learning the skills that they'll need as adults. I mean you you interviewed Peter Gray as this I get everything from Peter Gray about this.

39:08 It's like you learn how to compromise you learn how to communicate you know supposedly kids' vocabulary when they're playing is higher than when they're in a classroom and you can understand why because they're more motivated and they're less self-conscious. So they're just going forth and like letting a rip and like saying like no if you're going to go to the tree first that doesn't count because and then they explain it all.

39:30 Right? So I'd say the purpose of childhood is for us to to you know love them and give them you know it's always called the secure base. You know they know we're there if they if they need us and they can't figure something out on their own or they're they're bereft or they're you know they just need us.

39:46 We're there. We love them we're we're we're we're reliable but each each step is a little further away from us not because they love us less but because they're becoming people so our job is to get out of the way of that and let it happen and then be there for when they need us.

40:08Jon @WholeParent I love that let me tell you what I've taken away so far and I want to ask you one more question kind of to like and end our time but so far what I'm taking away from this conversation is one, kids the at least one of the central purposes of childhood is is to build the skills that kids need as adults.

40:27Jon @WholeParent And they cannot do that if we are constantly supervising and over uh helping and and constantly restricting their freedom and their autonomy. And practically what you showed us is that kids age 14 are now receiving the same or actually less autonomy than a kid who is six you know 40 years ago, 50 years ago.

40:53Jon @WholeParent And so w when I combine those two things what I hear is we've actually taken skill building that that probably required a decade or more and we've compressed it into maybe a couple years, two years. And we've said as if, like you said, we're trying to teach all of what they need for math in in a year and a half before they graduate from high school.

41:17Jon @WholeParent And the difference I think even is it's much worse because as with with academics and with other things I I I hesitate to say this because I know every teenager who can can can clip this out and use it. But the truth is you're probably not really going to use math if you're 98% of people beyond a certain level.

41:37Jon @WholeParent You're not gonna use anything beyond eighth grade math you know i unless you're unless you're in some specific engineering discipline. But you are going to use relationships. You are going to use communication you are going to use uh logic you are gonna use risk navigation and so we've actually taken the most important skills and we've those are the ones that we've greatly compressed.

41:59Jon @WholeParent So the last question that I would have for you with all of that being kind of the undercurrent and please feel free to promote let grow I think it's a wonderful organization. What is if a parent has listened to this episode and they've they've said okay you've convinced me I'm I'm I'm sold maybe I have a six year old maybe I have an eight year old that's the probably the the age range of most people who are listening up to about eight.

42:22Jon @WholeParent What can I do today? What can I do tomorrow?

42:26 How can I begin to shift this so that I am not looking at 14 and going, oh I don't want to say it's too late, but it's it's a lot later than it could have been okay so I will promote Le Gros materials but I'll start with a a simple question that any of your listeners or viewers can ask themselves now which is um think about a time that you were a kid and something that you loved doing and whether you wish your mother was with you all that time.

42:58 And generally people laugh it's like no you know I didn't want her in the treehouse. No I didn't want her you know supervising me as I you know learned how to bounce a ball for instance so um if you think you got something out of some less structured less supervised time then that's a gift that you can give back to your kids.

43:20 Let Grow makes it easier to do that. So um Let Grow, which nobody remembers the name because it's weird, but it's L-E-T Grow, G-R-O-W. We have something uh for for for parents called four weeks to a let grow kid. Week one is getting your kids to do more stuff for themselves that you've been doing for them that maybe at this point now they can start taking some of that on.

43:42 Another week is getting them more out into the world another week do stuff with friends and then another week is like plan something, you know, a picnic or an excursion or breakfast for the family. And it's just it's a very easy and I'd say felicitous way to to just start realizing how much your kid can do and how much they can amaze you and how many times they get to say, I did it myself.

44:04 I'd say more importantly for Let Grow is we have two free programs for schools that do this because John Heid our co-founder always says that a collective problem which is none of us knowing when to let our kids play outside, walk to school, you know, use a stove anymore needs a collective solution which is everybody doing it so that you're not the nut, you're not the crazy or lazy parent.

44:28 And so the let grow experience all of our stuff is free is where teachers give kids a homework assignment once a month that says go home and do something new on your own with your parents' permission but without your parents and there's a list of things you can you know climb a tree, walk the dog, make pancakes, whatever.

44:47 And then all the kids come to school and like what did you do? I got a Slurpee, what did you I got a haircut by myself I taught my sister how to paint her room. Whatever it is there's just you've brought the outside world into school which has makes school a little more exciting in in many ways. But it also it valorizes the idea of kids doing things on their own as opposed to you're the bad parent.

45:08 And if you do it once a month by the end of the year kids have all these new skills and you've normalized the idea of course my kid can go to the store of course my or at least five aisles over and get the bananas. You know of course my kid is ready to take the the brownies out of the oven using an oven mitt you know these are things that I didn't realize before and now I do and the parent feels really proud and the kid feels really proud.

45:30 So the let grow experience is just a very easy way to bring everybody along this this road towards giving kids more independence and feeling more proud. And the other the other thing for schools is we recommend that schools stay open for a let grow play club which is just what we were discussing before and you were talking about with siblings it's all ages together anybody who wants to stay after school there's an adult there but they're not organizing the games they're not solving the arguments.

45:58 They are there like a lifeguard and meantime the the the play yard or the the schoolyard is filled with you know balls and cardboard boxes and an old suitcase and some fabric and kids are figuring out what to do and who they want to play with and making new friends and making new games and having those arguments and solving them without the adult doing it.

46:19 So even if you live in a dangerous neighborhood they're at school right or a or a neighborhood where everybody goes home to travel soccer well now they have another place to go where they are learning teamwork and how to play and it is it is cheaper and and it's it's where the kids already are so you don't lose the kids who all go home and they're either in an organized activity or on a device.

46:43 And I know that some of your people are watching and some of them aren't but I I there's my favorite graph that I have to show you besides my 14 year old graph. And this was where um last summer we asked a a a Harris poll question of kids eight to twelve how would you rather spend time with your friends and the kids were given three choices old school hangout free play no no adults 1980s style or would you rather be in an organized activity like the soccer or ballet or chess you know an adult running it or would you rather be online and you could be playing video games or you know on social media whatever and and these are the results and um there's there's a giant line at uh which is do you know

47:26 what this one is probably free play. It is totally Like giant the tallest part of the graph by far. Middle is organized activities and dead last, 20 points less, is being online. So we keep saying that kids are online all the time, they're addicted to their devices. What's the problem? But part of the problem is that we're not opening the door.

47:51Jon @WholeParent There is no alternative.

47:53 There is no alternative.

47:55Jon @WholeParent When we yeah, my local mall, I said this on the the Peter Gray episode as well. My local mall recently um banned anybody under the age of 18.

48:03 Yeah. A thousand malls have done that. I was just reading a study. Yes.

48:07Jon @WholeParent And and and this is wow. I love all of this. I wish we could just talk about this forever. As the person who is the most uh anti-homework individual ever, I fully support homework of go home and do something free and autonomous with your parents' permission. Uh that is the only homework assignment that I might ever make my kids actually do.

48:27Jon @WholeParent Uh, but I I've loved this conversation. I hope that other people have gotten as much out of it as I've gotten. All of the links to Let Grow will be in the description of this, wherever you're listening or watching this episode. Lenore, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

48:45 Uh John, I not only have to thank you for having me here, but I I listened to you sum up what I was saying, and I thought, like, why can't I sum it up that way? That's exactly what I believe, and those are my beliefs. How come he's saying them so well? So thank you so much.

49:07Jon @WholeParent Thanks again for listening to this episode of the Whole Parent podcast. I hope it was worth the time that you gave it today. I hope you learned something or were challenged, or maybe it just made you smile. If it did, there's a couple of things that you can do that would really, really help me out. The first one is to go right now and subscribe to my channel at Whole Parent on YouTube.

49:29Jon @WholeParent YouTube is getting full, unabridged versions of every podcast episode ad-free right now. I am really trying to get people over there because I have so much awesome YouTube content planned and I have such a small following over there. So if you want to get the best of Whole Parent, hop over to YouTube.

49:46Jon @WholeParent There's awesome stuff there. It's going to absolutely change your life. The second thing that you can do is actually go to the link in the description. You can find YouTube there as well, but find the link for the parent lab. It's my exclusive community where I do group coaching. I have a whole course library there full of amazing educational resources for parents.

50:08Jon @WholeParent It is a subscription model where you gain access for a low monthly fee. Go ahead, check out the parent lab. There's so many amazing things in the parent lab. And if you want to grow in your parenting, it's the best way to do that. The third thing that you can do, and it probably costs you the most because it costs you vulnerability, is to share this episode or this podcast in general with people in your life.

50:30Jon @WholeParent There are parents in your life who are struggling. There are parents in your life who could use this in their life. And we know that the number one way that we can get more people to listen and watch and follow along with the podcast is by personal referral. People want to know what you're listening to.

50:47Jon @WholeParent They want to know what's helping you to parent more effectively. And so if you can do that, find somebody in your life who needs this podcast and send it to them. I would be so, so, so appreciative. Thank you again so much for your time. You can find links to everything that we talked about in the episode, including my books, Punishment Free Parenting, and Set My Feelings Free down below.

51:07Jon @WholeParent And I'll see you next time.