Vicki Gunvalson from Real Housewives of Orange County

Hello, hello, our unhinged friends.

I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam, a psychotherapist in New York City. We're best friends and Bravo super fans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is Unhinged. And on camera. Welcome back.

Sorry, we were just discussing how that we've been.

Delayed in our posting, but.

We are going to get our shit together for the holiday season.

It feels like things are now picking up, right? Like, there's now more stuff coming out. I feel like we're in a little bit of, like, a low, slow period. Well, yeah. Like, I feel like things needed to kind of stack up.

And now I was, like, going through all the Bravo shows, and I was like, holy crap, we have a lot of housewives.

It's Potomac, Salt Lake, New York.

Um... OC.

OC.

And then Southern Charm.

Is about to come out.

Southern Charm. Oh, and we just finished Ultimate Girls Trip, so that just wrapped. I'm really excited for Southern Charm. I think the Housewives, I love them, but like... It is nice.

When we have Housewives and one of the other shows kind of going at the same time to give a reprieve from like the Housewives dynamics. Because, you know, Housewives is so the women, too.

So it's like you don't... get that much dating dynamics and different gender dynamics.

Well, I feel like so much of The Housewives becomes about status and money, and I feel like the other shows, that is less the centering dynamic of what's happening.

Which, okay, so our subject today is Vicky. We're finally getting into it. I guess.

So I had to catch up on OC. I was like super behind.

It took me like an entire day of like watching. I didn't realize I was so many episodes behind and I kind of felt the season was like a dud. But I think you mentioned like you were liking the season and like it did pick up in a very interesting way and like a lot because of Vicky and then I did some re-watching and I did feel like I felt like Vicky was such a huge subject because she's been on the show for so long but then it kind of started to feel a little bit more consumable to me because I was like she kind of repeats a lot of the same patterns which I'm sure we're going to get into.

Which makes her feel very authentic right like even though she is kind of this like big character like her whole personality feels so strange and I never met anyone like this like I can't think of anyone in my life I'm like they're like like she is out there but in a way that feels really authentic.

I don't know. I'm in a first season show right now and really struggling with like who to center it.

On and all these different questions.

And I feel like Vicky was not necessarily the center of that first season. Nor do I think she should have been. Like she's the kind of character that like you get to know over time and she becomes like.

Someone that you're really interested in right because you start to see her quirks and like you're saying the patterns and these like idiosyncrasies or.

Whatever that word yeah which like on the show i'm currently on has a similar thing where they kind of cast it around this one woman and she is very interesting but she's very hard to consume like from a first episode because she's just not a very oh, I get that woman or I know that woman or that's someone I like. Like, I felt that way about... Like, Lori worked under her in those early seasons. And she was sort of, like, this housewife that lost everything. And then Vicky was sort of, like, training her to be her own independent woman. And, like, she was someone who, like, you immediately just, like, liked and was warm. And, like, Vicky never had that feeling. But after seeing her ultimate girl strip and really thinking... When they were going on

and on about, like, she didn't get her flowers and O.C. And then, like, she really started it. And you're like.

vicky started housewives and then i was thinking about it and i was like.

Something that i feel like is a little unfair for vicky in a way is like she didn't of all the housewives everybody for the most part knew what they were signing up for except for vicky like vicky actually didn't know what she was signing up for do you know what i mean like she was signing up for a show about her cul-de-sac and the women who lived there in like their gated community She did not know this was going to be 20 years of, like, everything that spawned from it. And, like, you know, were there, like, sky tops? And, like, yes, they did have, like, a looks aspect to it, but there was no expectation.

Well, it's like there's a benefit and a challenge to that, right? Like, I think there is something really helpful for her in having, like, something that gives her a one-up on all the others of having come in with no model of, like, this is... what you're signing up for. It's like when you're the first one to present in class, now everyone compares themselves to you. And so you're not comparing yourself to everyone else, which I think is really helpful for Vicky because I do think she struggles with really, really deep insecurity.

Which I mean, I don't even know what really fits her molds. Cause like Tamra, Tamra fits that OC housewife thing perfectly. and in a way Lori did too. Um, Gina didn't really, but, um, then, then Vicky, because like I said, I feel like Vicky is not a very superficial person. Like there was a lot of talk on the, and this is kind of getting into a whole nother subject, but like in ultimate girl strip, her like plastic surgery that she ended up getting because Slade talked about her. Like, I don't think she would have done that if not for the show and the public attention. And like, The show that she signed up for was not that. Like, you had to present in the way housewives present nowadays.

You know, when we talk about plastic surgery and all that stuff. Like, she just was a mom who worked and was interesting and, like... Mm-hmm. That's all she was expected to do, you know, and it evolved into this massive engine. So I guess I do want to give her her flowers in the sense of that she's very resilient.

The fact that she started this show, it was a completely different thing than what it is now. And 20 years later, she came back to do this season again. And, like, she's gone through so many phases of Housewives and, like, stayed with it. Even when she was off of it, she would, like, still come to BravoCon. And nobody else from the original OC, like, they pop up at these parties and stuff, but nobody else has been consistently on it the way she does. So there is something about her that's, like, very special, very unique, very adaptable. So, yeah, I want to give her, I guess, open with, like...

you know she has a lot of faults but like that is something that I'm pretty impressed with because she's the only housewife who's ever been able to do that I guess and like in a sense too like why her I guess because she does have this daddy down personality where it's kind of like is she that compelling I don't know I.

Really appreciate that because in general I think I have a hard time with Vicky and so I'm wanting to like while we dive into her hold space for both, like, what she means for this thing that, like, means so much to me of, like, being the housewives and, like, that she is sort of the, one of the creators of it. And without her, I don't think we would have all these other franchises and all these other things.

And so I also want to give her flowers for, like, kind of, like, being the, whatever.

The Joan of Arc of it all. Yeah. dead at that i don't know if she deserves that but okay.

But i i also like of if if we look at like all the housewives she would not even make it to my top 10 like matt rushmore yeah there are really i find her very hard while she's like unique and eccentric and i love the word odd duck because i do feel like that.

Describes her well that does really.

Well it's a really a great description of her But she also is really mean and really judgmental. And her judgment doesn't ever feel like fun. Like I never experienced like there are certain like Elisa Renna who can be really judgmental, but it's fun or like, right. There's these housewives like a Giselle. She's so judgmental, but there's like a fun side to it with Vicky. Her judgment doesn't feel like it's coming from a fun place. It feels like.

It is a complete projection of her own insecurity.

Oh, it's funny that you say this fun place because last night I was with a bunch of girlfriends and it was one of my friends who's not really friends with my other friends. But I wanted to hear about this wedding she went to. And I was like, I need to hear about this wedding. And she kept being like, no, I like them. And like, I'm not usually judgment like this.

And I was like, no, we're judging this wedding. Like, this is what we need to do. Like, let's get into it.

Right. And, like, you're not wanting to do it because you want to, like, make those people feel bad.

Or be mean.

Yeah. It's not about it's not about the intention is not to hurt anyone. And obviously, you know, I think Giselle, some of these people who can do fun judgment can also cross the line.

Yeah.

And not be intentional about understanding the impact of their own behavior. But I think with Vicky, she. Doesn't care. And I guess that feels like the difference is she really just like does not care about the impact of it.

I think it's interesting you say that because catching up on all of it, like Carmela this season, you know, obviously she's quite mean to her, but like all of her judgment and everything she's saying, I think is in a sense fair because I'm like, it is weird. Like there's a lot of things that aren't being said. Like, oh, did you live in Rancho whatever? Santa Fe, whatever the fuck that is.

Because of the show. Like, are you just doing this because of the show?

That's, like, the kind of unspoken thing you think that might be happening?

I don't know. But it's like, I don't like that. I don't like it when it's like. If they're on there, let's, even if that's like a truth that she's only living there for the show. like let that just be because you questioning it one just like where's that.

Gonna go it comes out of the gate yeah right.

And then so what if she says yeah i moved here to be on the show like that then what like right like we have to suspend some disbelief in the setup that they're giving us that like none of reality is all completely real and that has to be okay and so that's why it feels like what is the point of this vicky Well, because if she did move there for the show, they know that. And so bringing it up is meant to put her in some position as less than to make Vicky feel powerful. And that's what I don't like about it is that it is a kind of like a power dynamic for Vicky.

Well, and like I think if this was first season, you didn't know these people. The note you would get is like, why is she out the gate being mean to this girl? Like we need to justify it. And what they've done with Vicky is that they've set up. She's mean to new girls. So she just does this as a pattern. What it is, is it's like a power thing, right? Like, and I think part of this is her being this like, don't of arc or whatever, like this, you know, creator of this franchise in a way.

There's a way that the power of that, I think, fulfills a piece of her own, like, feelings of like value and self-worth. And that she very easily feels threatened by others.

And so as soon as, like, new people come in, she's almost like a dog pissing on her territory. I'm here, you're there, and I need you to know that.

And to be honest, her coming back this season, it really feels that she did not want this or need this or really want to be on the show anymore.

Like, I'm not getting a sense.

Of, like, It's almost like she's doing Bravo a favor because it's the 20th anniversary.

That's interesting. I could see why you see that. My sense is she really wants it and wants to hold on to the relevancy it gives her. And again, that like value and esteem it gives her. But she also does not want to be put in a position to be made to feel like vulnerable or less than. And so. What she thinks being there is going to be versus what it is really I think that's where you're seeing what you're feeling like oh she doesn't seem like she wants to be here it's like she wants to be here but she wants to be here in a way where she gets to kind of like play God and be above everyone but like that's not how it's going to work no one's going to let her be in that position where she doesn't get held accountable or. get

into the mix of things.

Well, I think when you have a pause on Housewives, we've seen a couple different ways that women react when they come back.

Mm-hmm. And, like.

you know, for Tamara, it was sort of like, let me balls out and give everything because I can't lose this again. Whereas I feel like Vicky is like, she took her time away being like, I can control this thing. And when I come back, I'm going to handle things differently because now I'm in control of my, and with her relationship. So the two things that I guess were the biggest things.

Well, let's name off the top that this is a very hard thing to talk about because this is someone who's been on the show for 20 years. I feel overwhelmed. Like even when I was like, writing down my notes and trying to organize my thoughts about what do I want to say about Vicky I felt so overwhelmed so really first off to everyone I just want to say for myself I'm sorry if we kind of feel all over the place because I just feel like there's so much here and so I.

Guess I want to oh okay interesting because I feel like it's a little bit consumable well maybe because I started I started out feeling that way and then i got into it i was like okay these are the two things i feel like i want to talk about i mean i think i think the third topic for us yeah i would think the third topic would be like her relationship with the women but like her independent i would say is her relationship with work because we saw that a lot come up on ultimate girl strip and this season of oc and then obviously that's a big storyline for her in general and then her relationship with Men.

And I also feel like those things are kind of interrelated.

But yes. So of those two topics, which one do you want to start with?

The other things I want to add in that I feel like I guess feel very interesting to me is her relationship with her health. I think there's a lot of things that have come up over the years about that that are interesting. both knowing her history of like being young and having these health issues and then how you know how that's created an anxiety for her wait what was her health issues when she was young she had i think some sort of ear cancer some like or oh this is five she had surgery to remove a benign inner ear tumor losing half of her hearing in one ear and underwent several more surgeries over the year eventually losing her hearing in that year Well, that's why she can't hear anyone. That's why she doesn't have

a good relationship to the women. Yeah.

She can't hear the guy she's dating either.

In 2021, I think she had a reemergence of some kind of cancer, but I could be wrong about that.

I saw that in my research that I was doing. Well, I feel like a lot of what's going on with her health right now or in general is like, she seems to be, when you talk about relevance and clinging on to this relevance of being on the show, it feels like that at work too. Like she's so clinging on to, I run Coto Insurance. I mean, her son is working there doing a lot. It seems like she could certainly pass the baton and retire and enjoy her life and her many, many dollars. But it's like, it seems like she's afraid if she lets go of that.

So let's start there. Let's start with the work.

Yeah.

Because I think that's a really interesting part of Vicky and I think that was part of her like initial story of being this sort of like independent woman who ran this business who right like she had this marriage but she was she the breadwinner with Dom?

They were I would say more like it seemed like more of equal situation. Equal partnership. I think probably towards the end she made a lot more money because of housewives you know.

Right. Right. But the whole thing was that she was, you know, successful business entrepreneur. And I feel like so much of her, I just get the sense that Vicky is such a deeply insecure person. Like I would be so curious to know more about her like childhood and growing up, which I feel like we don't know enough about.

We know like some things, but I get the sense that she's so Like, I wonder if she was bullied for the way she looked or things like that. And because I get this sense that work became her way of feeling value within herself and feeling protected. And so without that, there's so much vulnerability and fear of like, what is my value in the world? Am I safe, right? Like, can people hurt me if I don't have this thing that becomes the like.

You know, barrier, the boundary between me and them. So I just get the sense that it becomes this thing that proves that she has value in the world. And I feel like we see that play out even in Ultimate Girls Trip, right? She's in the car with these other women who have big personalities. And I think she does also have a big personality, but they have really strong interpersonal skills. And I get the sense that Vicky has very poor interpersonal skills. Yeah. And when she can't integrate in a dynamic, she opens up that laptop.

Yeah. And she's like, I have to work.

It becomes this boundary of like, it is not safe for me to try to relate to these people. And so let me make myself seem like it's not that I'm not relating to them because there's something wrong with me. It's because I'm busy.

Well, and I think the disrespect to the women is like, they're like, this is our job and you're getting paid and this is your job.

And working on your laptop is not television. I wonder if she's slightly like neurodivergent in some way now that I'm thinking about it. I, you know, I obviously can't diagnose that, but I just get the sense that interpersonally she really struggles. Like she seems to not be able to read social cues, right? Like she, she will say the thing that all of us as adults are like, okay, even if you're thinking about it, don't say that thing.

Even what you're saying about the thing with Carmela and me not living there, like, okay, all the other women probably know that too, but they're not going to bring it up because they know like, why say that?

And like, she has no, like, I was saying, too, like she has like a overachiever, like she you know, like that person who's like got to get straight A's.

But again, I think that's because she knows there's no there's some part of her that recognizes there's no other way for me to relate to other people. And so my value is going to be within achievement. Yes.

And so also I know this was kind of a hot topic on the Internet, the interwebs. And I didn't really necessarily agree with it, though. I understood the point was that like when she was in Atlanta, she felt so uncomfortable in like a black space, basically.

And I didn't get that sense.

I think she got she was uncomfortable in all the parties. I didn't I didn't I guess maybe because I saw that before I watched the episode. I was like really looking for it. And I was kind of like, no, this just seems like Vicky is uncomfortable.

I agree, but I do think there was another level of discomfort. in a more black space for her.

Well, I mean, OC is very white, so that didn't surprise, I guess the whole concept of that didn't surprise me.

Right, whether she is intentionally racist, my guess is she holds some internalized racism from, you know, yeah, being in mostly white spaces and yeah and if she doesn't have good social skills and doesn't know when to not say it like oh my god remember that moment where she's talking to kyle and kyle is crying about the anniversary of her wedding the separation vicky says yeah she is like most insensitive response of like yeah you shouldn't have left him or you shouldn't have done that like And it totally felt like, you know, that was the room, Vicky.

And it makes me I don't know. I'm on some like neurodivergence with her because I feel like she cannot read the room. Like she cannot like understand what and going back to even like what was happening when she I don't remember all the parts. I have terrible memory from having two children and overworking myself. But. When she was on Ultimate Girls Trip at Dorinda's, like, she did not know how to integrate herself in that space. That's what I'm saying.

And it felt like she could never read the room.

Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. I felt like Atlanta was maybe, the people were being a little too harsh on her because I felt that she had that in every party. Like, I didn't feel that it was, like, too much exceptional in Atlanta because she was.

The same way in Dorinda.

But it's interesting when you say the inner ear thing because I almost wonder... That's such a critical time at age five because you're just starting school. You're just starting to make friends. So it's like, and then you can't hear them and.

You're in hospitals. Or you can't hear well. You mishear things probably.

Yeah.

And then like that would really impede your social skills.

Oh, you're so right.

I bet that totally impacted that early childhood development.

Right.

That like key.

Social emotional development time of like early elementary school. Oh, you're so right.

But then I think that some of what you're saying does make her a good housewife because that scene with Kyle was the most interesting. I would say probably for me, one of the most interesting. No, she's definitely a great housewife because of that. Because to me, I was like, that was the question I feel like I've been wanting anyone to fucking ask her.

Like, why are you leaving him then?

Like, make it work, you know?

Well, she didn't say why. She was like, yeah, that was a mistake. Yeah, that was a mistake. But I think, I guess kind of saying that was a mistake.

Like, fix it then. Because I am kind of sick of Kyle being like, this is.

A tangent, but like, you know, oh God, I'm so sad. And then divorce him or be with him.

But like, make a choice. And like, you're Well, I think now he doesn't want to be back in a marriage. Oh, he plays her like a fiddle. And he's going to continue to.

And it's just very weird. And she's back. So I guess we'll watch it again next season.

Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, so I guess. Well, I'm just I'm I'm so sitting with what you were saying about this idea that like having all of these medical issues at five years old. The impact just, like, going to the hospital has on you socially. The impact of not being able to, like, hear as well as everyone else.

And how that likely has, because what we see with her, she's so controlling. And what that does to your sense of, like, needing to control when you can't control your body and you can't control yourself. Sort of like these very specific things about yourself, how that then translates into, like, needing hyper control of your environment and the things around you.

It's making me have a lot more empathy for her.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the control factor, too.

I mean, when you go back to the famous family van moment, right? Like, that's something you see from her a lot. She's very... type A things need to be a certain way and like.

And then when they're not she absolutely loses control.

Another recurring theme this season in an ultimate girl strip which I found really interesting was her going on and on about I messed up with Don and I should have stayed with Don because I think it's something.

I've thought from her for a while but like she was really so in love with Brooks that I feel like she didn't maybe process that Dawn breakup so much.

And then hearing that.

And then, so I did some rewatching of the Dawn and cause I was like, of the Dawn, the Dawn situation. This was like, what was their relationship? Like, I just wanted to kind of just get a flavor for it more than anything. And like, when you talk about control, that's something I felt like I saw a lot with the Dawn situation is like the way they spoke to each other. Well, it was interesting because the way they spoke to each other was quite harsh and mean. But then you kind of see this turn where they really worked on their relationship. They renew their vows and they're super soft and kind to each other. And then it goes back again to like being very mean. But with Dawn.

Is he mean too? I don't remember these early seasons. Yeah.

Well, so I watched the scene that was really interesting.

So early season....

She's going to Mexico and he's like not invited. She's like taking the kids and going to Mexico. It's just a very layered like every aspect of this date scene had like layer upon layer of basically like. She's going to Mexico with her kids. And then Dawn is going with her brother to go fishing. And she's like, this is how it's always been.

I go with the kids. And the kids are not Dawn's children.

Right. Which is something that I think maybe newer fans don't know. That Dawn was the stepfather. And they had this other dad, Mike, who was... Well, within the scene, we get into the whole Mike thing. So they're debating because Gina is like, Vicky, you need to go on vacations with your husband. Like, why would you not take him?

And she's like, no, I just want to be with my kids and my sister. And he'll just distract that. So he's not invited, basically, which is fair. You can have trips without your husband. And then I guess within that, there's a lot of judgment in other seasons where the guys are like, you guys have a different marriage because they do things independently. Which is fair, too. You should spend time with your husband. So then they get.

Into that argument.

And then she's also going to Chicago to see her family. And they're going to have a family barbecue. And she wanted to invite Mike, the kid's father. And then Dawn, like, flips out and is like, this guy has never been around. Why would you invite him to this thing? And she's like, it's for Brianna because Brianna has a relationship with him.

And da, da, da, da.

And then she's like, you should have adopted these kids. You never adopted the kids. And he's like, don't throw that in my face. I, like, I raised them with you. And they, you know, without any, any whatever. And then he's like, you know, you should have never married that deadbeat guy.

And it's just so mean.

Like, but she's also kind of being very mean. So they're matching each other's energy.

So I don't know.

I wish I watched the scene because that's I think it's interesting.

Like. It feels like less that he is being mean and more. And yes, it's mean, but like there's some defense that he's feeling of. And I wonder if this is like the whole idea of their relationships where he feels he's not appreciated or understood for like what he brings to the relationship. And my guess is like constantly he's been told by her in various, you know, direct and indirect ways that he's not enough. he's not doing enough.

He's not showing enough affection. He's not, you know, giving her enough attention. He's not just not enough. And so in this moment where it's like, I'm going to invite this other guy who did nothing to the vacation. I never invite you on vacations. A part of him is just like, what the, you know, it's an explosion of that, like reoccurring all of the moments of like depletion in the account of feeling appreciated in the relationship.

Yeah, and, like, there's another scene in Napa with Simon and Tamara, and it's their anniversary, and they start herping on Don because this is the famous love tank. He doesn't fill up my love tank, which is she actually said in an interview right after, because they did these on-the-fly interviews. We call them in TV world OTFs, but they did this on-the-fly interview that they don't do anymore on Housewives, but it was kind of interesting to watch the old cuts and how they used to do things.

But so it was after the date she says it. She doesn't say it to him. But I'm sure that's been communicated to him.

Oh, yeah.

Tamara and Vicky were like harping on him, like, love her more.

Give her a kiss. And like, it's a very awkward, like, jump out of your skin scene. And Donna's just like, I'm never. He's basically like, it's never enough. Of course, it's going to come back to I'm not doing this. But it was interesting to watch the shift that happened that clearly happened. They watched themselves on TV, saw how bad their relationship dynamic was. And they made a total 180 because then you see them get renewed. She plans this whole surprise trip for just the two of them, romantic trip. They go on this thing and they renew their vows. And they were in a very good period.

And then they.

Just probably go back to the same thing. Because in the end, I think Don probably felt like I have to change to meet her needs. And there's no expectation on Vicky to change because I think probably Don is just someone who isn't very demonstrative, isn't very like emotional, like he's very stable and grounded. And he's not going to be an high intense partner he's going to just be consistent and loyal but he's not necessarily going to be able to do these big shows of affection and the things that Vicky's kind of saying are like that's what I need for my love tank which I think is why then when she goes to Brooks there's like a excitement there and a wanting to protect because Brooks is you know, a narcissistic love bomber who, you know,

comes in and is giving her all the things that Don didn't.

Which is interesting because when you see, I don't really know too much about Steve.

I kind of forgot about him.

But Steve and this new guy, Mike, you're kind of seeing.

A little bit of both.

I feel like these, well, Mike, I guess we'll just talk about Mike because he's who's on now. I feel like Mike is a little bit of Don and a little.

Bit of Brooks.

That's one of the scents I'm getting from the very limited what we saw. I kind of agree. And I think Steve was kind of similar.

Like, I think when she went from Brooks, who I think really wanted to be on the show, wanted a personality. He clearly picked a housewife and could see his whatever personality. you know, conscious or unconscious narcissism connected to her deep insecurity and was able to like, kind of like fill all the gaps and do all the things to make her feel seen and loved and fulfill that, that thing that was missing with Dawn. Then I think when they broke up and all of the trauma that happened there, she picked Steve as an overcompensation and, Right. Like there was this sense that like Steve didn't really want to be on the show, was kind of like more of a private person, was. But didn't she talk about their

like sex life a lot and say how like he was really good in bed or something?

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Well, she definitely has a sex. I did want to bring that up. The sex freak. Remember that I was never with three people. There is an aspect to Vicky that's got sex freak. all over it to me. And I think Dawn wasn't that for her. I mean, she never really said. I do have a good question for you, though.

Sure.

Because as I was catching up on Housewives, I was like, did Housewives ruin Vicky's life? Because she brings up the fame, and if it wasn't for the fame, she would have stayed with Dawn. But I don't know, watching some of the scenes, I was like, the dynamics in their relationship was so bad that I'm like, do I think even if the cameras weren't on, these people would still be together?

I don't know.

Do you think?

I think she's idealizing Don because she knows he was stable. And after him, she got into all these very unstable situations because even though Steve was more private and more of a calming force, he wasn't a sense of stability for her. He was very critical of her. He was very right. Like not, not okay with how she was.

And so I think Don was someone who was so accepting of all of her, right? Like even if they had conflict, he wasn't going to leave because she was big and he was little, right? Like he, he was there for it. He was willing to be a stable, consistent force, even in response to all of her, um, all of her personality and emotional intensity. And I think what she regrets about leaving Don is she hasn't been able to find a partner who I think is both stable, loyal, and trusting, but also accepts her level of emotional intensity.

Because even with Michael now, I get the sense that she has to make herself smaller to make that relationship work.

Especially with the whole, like, oh, my gosh, can we briefly talk about that scene in La Quinta or whatever? And with Gina and... Oh, not Gina. Emily and Jen leaving.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt crawled out of my skin.

I have been in those situations where you're, like, on a trip or you're with someone and you're so uncomfortable and you just.

Want to leave. And I give.

emily and jen all the flowers for just getting in that uber and fucking leaving because it was so intense you could feel through the tv the intensity and awkwardness of that whole vibe and i was a little disappointed how it was so thrown on like pushed under the rug.

After it because if if something like that happened.

In my friend group i would never speak to that person again putting you in a situation of being outside of your safe place your home And then being made to feel like the way they made them feel, I would never forgive that.

Oh, I felt that way before.

But, I mean, to me, I'm like, I don't know. It would really hurt my relationship with that person.

Oh, it does. Oh, it does. Not that it can't be repaired, but it does.

It hurts.

There's an unsafety. I know with my experience of that, I will never go to that person's home again. Not that I won't spend time with that person and go to shared places, but I will never go to a place where I don't feel I have control, some sort of control. And the fact that she was so afraid.

Because the whole situation of what they were talking about shouldn't have made Vicky.

I mean, maybe it did.

Maybe it should have. I don't know.

But it made.

The fact that she was so afraid that if she was upset, how Mike would react to her being upset, it was.

Yeah, I don't know.

As a therapist, explain to me what the fuck was going on there.

So I understood that she was saying like, please stop. This is my boundary. I don't want to talk about this. And I get why she was upset that they kept kind of pushing despite her trying to be like, hey, like, enough. Like, I don't want to talk about this thing anymore. But also, like, I think this goes to like what you were saying earlier of she wants does she want to be on the show because the show is kind of about boundary violations right like if everyone has all of these strong boundaries that no one can cross then like what are we watching right like And it's I think a bigger question we've had around I'm thinking about Vanderpump Rules the final season where Ariana and Katie have these strong boundaries

and like, is that then interesting? And so she wants to come in and control it and then feels, you know, upset when she can't control it and disengages. Well, I also think it's a fair.

Thing of like our culture in general right now, because you see so many people who go to therapy and like, you know, do this therapy speak and have their boundaries. And it's like, well, OK, we can craft a perfect life for ourselves.

Right. And have these boundaries and say, you cross my boundary. You're not in my life anymore. And this and that.

But that's not really what we're doing here on Earth anyways, because we're supposed to be learning. We're supposed to be growing. We're supposed to be challenged. And you need those– like, yes, you need to set boundaries, and sometimes that's appropriate. But also those boundaries should be challenged because that's part of the work we're here to do, I guess. Absolutely. I don't know.

It's an interesting question.

In that sense of, like, not– like, where is it fair for your boundaries to be tested? And I guess on that question with Vicky, she just had this big fight with Tammy Sue, you know, in Japan. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think it's fair for her?

Cause like, this was the same situation that happened in Palm Springs or whatever that like, she's like, I apologize.

Let's move on. Like, let's not talk about it anymore.

I said, sorry. Like, do you feel that she's fair in saying like, I said, sorry, let's not talk about this anymore. And the girls keep pushing it because I guess with the Tammy Sue situation, she was like, I said, sorry, let's move on.

But like, I think that's a fair expectation when you don't then go into the van after you've said sorry and still do the thing that you just said sorry for. And so in that case, like, I think there are things that it's like, I said, sorry, why are we harping on this? I think oftentimes I hate when housewives like harp on something. And it's one of the OG New York things that's so great is they would say sorry and move on and not kind of like hold these grudges. But I do think it is different when you say sorry and then you immediately do the thing again.

It does kind of put into question of like, OK, so you want to just move on, but like you're not moving on. You're continuing to do the bad behavior. And so there's not the repair is is not actually a repair.

Well, it sounds like, too, from Palm Springs, she spent the whole drive up talking shit about everybody. And then and then when they were like, hey, just don't call Jen low hanging fruit.

She was like, OK, but I'm definitely going to do that again. Right and the same thing that she says like oh I didn't judge I haven't judged anyone as a mother when we have like video of you judging multiple women as mothers so it's there's definitely a disconnect for her with reality is the first thing that was coming up to me and I'm trying to think like where her hearing because she often says like I don't remember things right like I think she did that in the thing with Tammy Sue of like I don't remember or even with like um shannon when shannon was like yeah i was hurt that you brought alexis on your podcast and she's like well i don't remember any of this like i don't remember the the issues and it's

sort of like where is that like a sense of convenience versus like okay do you really have like brain damage or like what was that scan she did that oh yeah that was like spots in your brain.

Yeah well and i mean like i think in general like the stress of like the show continuing to work at the level she needs to work at this relationship that she's hanging like.

Do we think she's really working though do you think maybe her like laptop is closed and she's just like pretending to work um.

I i think a little bit of both no i think she is really working but i think like she uses it as a defense mechanism on the show because she never did that before this is like a new thing i think that she there's a weird dynamic with her coming back in the sense of like she almost feels like she's doing the show a favor. And then, and then the other girls, the power dynamic doesn't feel fair.

And then the girls are questioning, like, why are we not holding Vicky accountable? And it's kind of like, well, Vicky's like, well, I just came back as a favor for the 20th year. And like, I guess this is something I want to get into more at the end.

But that speaks to what I was saying, right? Like she came back as a favor.

Yeah.

So she thinks that she is like above everyone else who's there.

Yeah.

And then when she is like put into position to be in the same place as them, she is so defensive. And it's like, well, if you're here, you have to be here. No one's going to like.

Yeah. What do you think is going on with her and Mike?

Say more.

The whole thing about Tamara saying maybe gave her the ring and took it back. Like that whole story got so convoluted. I couldn't really follow it, but like. I mean, are they good together?

I guess.

I don't know.

I don't think I can say because I just feel like we haven't seen know enough about the relationship. I think his need for privacy and her need for sort of like fame and adoration are going to come into conflict with each other.

And I don't get the sense that he I mean, he's appearing on the show.

But not really. Right. I mean, it's not like Brooks where, you know, we really saw this guy or even Steve, who was private, who we saw much more. And it's all very new. So it's hard to say. But I I get the sense that he's trying to appear because he's our partner, but it wants to control how much is seen of him. Well, and that's what's like even just physically seen of him.

Yeah.

Like I couldn't even tell you what he looks like. You could put up a line of men and I don't think I could point him out.

Oh, he has, I don't like his face. His face is kind of clear in my mind. Well, it's interesting because with Dawn, she very much had all the control and he did that. And that was their dynamic. It's interesting that we keep coming back to with Vicky, this power dynamic, right? Because with Dawn, she had all of it and she flaunted it. Like even with Gina, she's just like, I do what I want and Don does what I tell him to. And she does like, that's not going to be for a successful marriage.

So good luck with that.

And then with every man since then, she's totally ceded the control and let them have it. And so with Mike, when you say he wants to control, I don't get a sense that it's the show.

I think he's like that in their relationship. For sure.

You know, like even when they, and he tries to control her emotion. So I think Tamara saying, I think, And I think.

Steve did this too. I think they are very similar in that way. I think they do want to have... I think they are more controlling men.

Why did they break up? I don't remember their breakup.

I think he left her. They were engaged, weren't they, for a really long time? And then I think he left her. But I think she felt so much control of Don. Then... she tried to have control with Brooks, but he was really in control and that whole thing. And I think she's been choosing partners who she feels like can control her because she doesn't know how to feel a sense of control in relationships. Like she knows how to do it in every other area of her life successfully. But I think she recognizes to some extent, you know, again, conscious or unconscious degree that, like, with Dawn, there were certain emotional needs that would have never been met.

Yeah.

Even if all these other stability, right, this feeling that she would get to control and certain things would have been met, but there were things that she really wanted that were never going to be met. Then, you know, she met Brooks. He met all of those needs, but didn't meet all the other needs, right? And so I think then she's with Steve and now Michael trying to figure out, like, How can I get it all met?

Which may not be possible. Like, I don't know. Maybe it's just like, what is it that is really important to me? And like, what is it that I'm really looking for?

Yeah, I think I just saw in your notes, you said mom said she needed a validation all the time. But it's interesting with Dawn, when we go back to the hearing loss thing. You know, I was thinking of love languages a lot because the love tank thing was very much like, he's like, because I'm dealing with this on a storyline on the show I'm working on too right now where the woman's like, I need all this love and attention and like, I need him to say, like, and I'm very much a, you know, when you do the different love languages, mine's like words of affirmation.

Though they've been debunked, people.

Oh, really?

Interesting.

I think that they're helpful, but I don't think that they, you should base your relationship on them in any way. It's helpful to know, like, this is how I receive love. Like, mine was words of affirmation. I think most women are words of affirmation. Most men are physical touch, but that could just be a stereotype. Because my husband's very much words of affirmation, too, I.

Think, sometimes. Yeah, like, my husband is definitely words of affirmation.

Yeah.

I don't think I am as much, but, yeah.

I bet yours is, what is it, when they do shit for you?

Probably, like, acts of service, yeah. Yes, acts of service.

I was like, when they do shit for you?

What is that called? Acts of service, yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah so.

But when we talk about I also like quality time yeah so when we talk about hearing loss and then she's very much pushing downwards of affirmation like she needs to hear it right it's kind of interesting to think about too well I.

Think oftentimes controlling partners do give a lot of affirmation as a means of control and I don't think we like see this happening because again I think both of those relationships we didn't get A sense of them and I think because of how the show functions for those partners they want to control it that they, we didn't get to see the parts of the relationship that draw drew her to them.

Well, it was very bizarre to me that Mike showed up and was at that Palm Springs house. Like, yes, it's his house and whatever. But to me, when you say like, oh, he doesn't want to be in the show. I'm like, no. But I don't think it's the show.

I think he wanted to control what was happening there and what was seen there. I don't think he showed up to be on the show. I think he showed up to be in control of the situation.

And she does pick very controlling characters. sort of narcissistic men, you know? They all kind of fit a very... Except Don.

Like, I don't think it's fair to say Don fit into that.

Though Don did have a real mean streak in this scene that I saw from him. He was cold to her. He was like, you should have never married this guy.

Was that because he's controlling? Or was that because, again, there was, like, years and years of built-up resentment around feeling like he didn't get any affirmation for... being loyal and being consistent and you know he was constantly criticized as not enough not giving her enough affirmation not giving her enough like emotional validation not giving her enough um attention in the you know whether that's like sexual emotional whatever it was like he was constantly being told he's not enough and then you know he's seeing this guy and a I would love to talk to Don about what he thinks about her relationship history after him. I love that. What's that account that's like the fake Don Gunvalson account?

Have you ever seen those ones?

Yes.

Where he's like, pretend comments from Don.

I know.

I'm shocked that Don has never spoken. I would die.

Don, speak out. Reach out to us. We want to hear what you have to say.

Don, tell your truth, man. Tell your story. We need your story. Because we do come in on them being married.

And I'm curious what he feels now hearing, you know, Vicky say how much she regrets, you know, ending that relationship and... You know, I wonder what Michael thinks hearing that.

Another thing that I found interesting was he was 40, confirmed bachelor, didn't have kids, didn't want kids, and married her with her two kids. And we come in on the, I think they were more than 10 years married. So they were already so deep in their relationship. We don't really, like when you talk about like it was years of resentment, I mean, that tracks to me. But also I'm like, I guess I want to hold space for like, what were the things that Dawn wasn't giving Vicky that she did need? And like that relationship was never going to work if she was not fulfilled. But was that something Vicky needed to fix? It's funny too, because I see a lot of mirrors between their relationship and Shannon and

David's too.

Yeah, I could see that. I think when we think about these things, like when I'm working, if I were working with Dawn and Vicky in a couples therapy situation, I think it would be less about something either of them needs to fix and more about like, can you accept that he may not be able to meet these needs in a consistent way? And where can you notice that he is meeting your needs? And for Dawn, I would ask him to kind of like think for himself, like, can you accept that she is this more someone who needs something more emotionally intense and Where is it that you cannot let that like feeling of not being good enough interfere with your ability to see her? Because it feels like maybe that was what was happening. Like he

was starting to get blinded in those later years of the marriage with the resentment of not feeling good enough that he wasn't able to see her needs. And sometimes that will work. Like you can find a way to accept that like these are the things that feel really good about this relationship. And so those are worth focusing on.

And I'm gonna have to like let go of some of my other needs and accept that they're not going to be met they could open up the relationship where she could go like i don't know i would have loved to ethical non-monogamy situation between her and don like that could be really cool oh no but you know it might it could work it could not and for me a couple's therapy with them would not necessarily be about fixing or changing either of them right like it's about like what what shifts can you make to stop this cycle of you know you picking on um picking on don and then don like you either distancing himself for a while or exploding because his tank got too.

Full and it yeah it blew yeah i mean like without the show do i think that they would have lasted i don't know because i didn't i don't i mean it's interesting because she did at a moment realize oh don gives me a lot of things because she saw the other marriages and how you know i think at that time it was Tamara and Simon and Alexis and Jim. And she was like, the way they control their wives and they have to be these trad wives.

Like, Dawn never does that to me. And that's what I love about Dawn. Which is interesting because then she picked partners who want that.

I want that.

Yeah.

Well, they're very old school.

Well, it makes me think of like internal conflict she has within herself.

Right.

Like it's clear that there is this one part of her that wants to be the boss lady in charge, in control. And then I think there is a deep, deep part of her that wants to just be taken care of. Yeah. And I think sometimes for her, she gets confused between being taken care of and being controlled.

Yeah, because I think she didn't appreciate that Don did really take care of her. And now that she, in hindsight, sees that, she's like, oh, he took care of me and let me be me. And I don't think I'm going to find that again. And she's not because the guy she's with now is not that at all.

And I think the guys that are available in her age, in her dating class are going to be these, I don't know. What is she? What's she a boomer or is it before? It's giving boomer like these boomer white men in Orange County. Like now to me are all going to be kind of like in the controlling sphere of like patriarchy. And and the Dons are going to have been being been, you know, really does mean like almost like a hippie guy. Like an old hippie dude.

But isn't she MAGA? So I don't know. Maybe she deserves it all.

Yeah, who knows about that.

Which is why I still think maybe she was more uncomfortable in Atlanta than the other parties.

I do think it's interesting the dynamic with Brianna and her husband. And it made me sad, but also like, hey, okay, seeing her son Michael, he looks amazing. I feel like he's almost like taken so much of Don because he's like single.

He's living in Spain.

He's working. He's He seemed, like, deriving. And then it was really sad to me that he's, like, he doesn't speak really and see Brianna or her kids at all.

Doesn't surprise me.

It doesn't surprise me because that guy she's married to is.

He's got to be a piece of work. I imagine she's a piece of work, you know? Like, you can't be married to someone like that for this long and, I don't know. Not change or be, yeah.

Not be impacted by that.

Yeah. And I guess I guess they asked her to be on the season. She wouldn't.

Whatever, whatever. But yeah, I thought Tammy Sue being like, don't come from my family when your family has same issues was fair. What did you do?

This total diversion.

But we've been on this Tammy Sue storyline for a long time. What did you think of this?

The new stuff that happened? What's the new stuff that happened?

I mean, her just like, I guess, having a mental breakdown and crying about it.

Oh, about what happened on the show. Yeah. So I want to go back, and we're going to talk about that for a minute, just to, like, when she's having the birthday party for Ryan's daughter.

Oh, yeah.

Because to me, it's like, the issue for me with Tamara is she knows the one request that Sophia?

Mm-hmm.

Sophia's asked is don't talk about me on the show.

Do we know that though?

I guess we do know that.

Yeah.

She had that whole post that she's like, I don't want to be part of the show. And so if I don't want to be part of the show, like stop bringing her name on the show. And to have that scene with her granddaughter, where she's like, do you know who that is? That's your, like you're already violating. And we talked about this in our Tamara episode. I think Tamara has every right to choose something for herself and be on the show. She does not need to like, make choices to make her children happy. That's not what a good mother does is, is sacrifice themselves for their children in that way. But I do think there is something to acknowledge of like, okay, I know she doesn't like the show and it makes her uncomfortable that she

does not want anything to do with it. And so I am not going to bring her up on the show and I can bring up like the situation in a more nuanced and vague way that kind of like respects that boundary but she never does and.

So I also feel like from her angle though her sense is like maybe this is her only way of communicating with Sophia like I get a sense of that I.

Don't know but then she's communicating the wrong thing Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Because it still feels like she's communicating that it's Sophia's fault, whether she's doing that intentionally or unintentionally. That's sort of like the narrative she's holding is like, I keep trying and I keep getting rejected. And Sophia, like it almost ends up villainizing Sophia. And if I were Sophia, I would be like, then no, like we were never going to. It's not Sophia. That's not her name. Sydney.

Sydney.

We keep calling her Sophia.

Sophia's the other girl that's on the show. Sorry.

All that Sophia before was Sydney. Yeah, Sydney.

Sorry. Go back and correct that. It's interesting to see Sophia on the show.

She's thriving.

I mean, the other daughter.

Yeah, it seems like it. And I'm sure Sydney is thriving, too. Well, I don't know.

I mean, we don't know.

But I respect Sydney's decision to be like, I need to distance myself from this thing that I feel, you know... messed up my family and like she's allowed to have whatever narrative she wants to have about it.

But I do I guess I want to hold space I guess for Tamara in a sense of like seeing her seeing Ryan come in and her really explain some of the dynamic that went behind the scenes with Ryan that she's like he was posting all this you know MAGA stuff that I didn't agree with and I confronted him and then he confronted me about things he was unhappy about that I wasn't a good grandma but we're now working through it he's coming back into my life I guess I was like, there was a sense of, and again, maybe she just explained this in a very consumable way that I was like, oh, thank you. That's all the information I've been wanting to know for years.

But like, I was impressed with her ability to, again, like, I guess, hold a relationship with Ryan and hold him accountable in a way.

And then they were working through things.

I don't know. I was kind of like, this is the.

Tamara I want to see more of.

And I like that her family is very complicated and she does just want to keep everyone together. Because remember that scene with the brothers? I mean, we haven't seen her other son on the show for a while, but she had them sit down and talk about things because one's very liberal and one's MAGA. I don't know. I guess I want to give her a little bit of flowers because I'm impressed with her ability to.

Manage dynamics of the family. I don't think she's a bad mother. Like, I don't think she's a bad mother. I don't think that's a fair. But I do think that there is an immaturity in how she handles the Sydney. I think, The alienation that she feels from Sydney activates an earlier attachment wound for her that doesn't allow her to hold the mature perspective.

That I would like her to hold towards it.

And I wish like that was some work that she could do to reflect on like, oh, like this is activating something that puts me into a place where. I feel so scared and so hurt that I want to project the blame onto Sydney in an unconscious way and that that actually needs to be something I stop doing. Well, and yeah, I mean, I guess that would be the deeper work.

I want to do with her. I think it was watch what happens live. She said that like last year when she was in therapy, that's what she was working on a lot was, was that stuff.

But then you came on the show and did the same thing. So I guess not to say that that just, you know, progress is not it's not linear. So I want to give her grace in that way. Yeah.

So I guess back to Vicky, I will say as we sort of start to wrap up, I don't think the show ruined her life.

That was a question I did have coming at the top of this.

I don't think so. I think some of the dynamics with her relationships was going to go on with or without the cameras. And I think maybe it gave her some validation she needed that she should have just found in different ways. But I also think that she created an amazing franchise. She's lived through a lot of different lifetimes.

I don't think the show is good for her anymore. And I don't think she should be on the show.

Interesting. Okay, my summary of Vicky. I don't think the show ruined her life. I think the show created dynamics for her that highlighted many of her deepnesses. insecurities and vulnerabilities and she did not know how to handle those and has responded to those in a lot of like unhealthy ways whether that's insecurities about how she looks and being called miss piggy and that leading to lots of like Body dysmorphia, you know, and low self-esteem about how she looks and then plastic surgery and all that. Like, I wonder if the show didn't exist, if like she wouldn't have gone down all of that road. But I think those insecurities existed way before the show and that the show just made them more intense and more publicized

and therefore more demand to change.

Change or try to.

Control them and then I think it's the same in relationships like I think she's clearly you know that quote that her mom said of Vicky like needs so much attention and affirmation but why really like I want to understand where that comes from because that's not just like yes I think there can be people who just temperamentally require more attention and more affection but my guess is there's a deeper wound there for her and whether that has to do with being like a medically frail child and what that meant for her whatever it is I like want Vicky to do the work to see to figure out how she can value herself without having to overcompensate whether that's through like proving herself through work through

making herself small for men.

Even like on this season with the knee, and she's literally hobbling along, insisting to wear heels when you have a broken knee.

Right.

Going on Japan and going on all these trips and insisting on going when you're physically unwell.

Yeah. That need for... It's just so clear. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that the show didn't ruin her, but I think it did... intensify her need for validation her need for control i don't think her marriage with dawn would have worked out even if the show didn't exist i just get the sense that like eventually that was going to come to a head it might have looked different it might have lasted longer because of the show because she saw.

Those other dynamics yeah well i also think too like there was some kind of overlap with dawn and brooks now potentially I don't want to say that's fact.

Maybe that was their ethical non-monogamy or something. That could have been great. Like if she just like was able to like be in a sexual relationship with Brooks. And I mean, that might have worked out for all of them perfectly. I don't know. Don could just be left alone.

Yeah.

Don could be left alone. Brooks may, she wouldn't have had to like protect Brooks or engage with Brooks as like deeply if he was just like kind of fulfilling her need for like sex and physical affirmation.

Oh, my God. I'm dead at this. I think we just cured Vicky. I never was in a bed with three people was actually the cure that she needed was the non-monogamous love situation.

It probably is kind of like what she needs. But, yeah, I think.

Do you think she should continue to be on OC Housewives?

She is not the problem with OC Housewives. I think OC Housewives has like deeper problems going on that I don't know. I don't know. Cause I also kind of like it.

I don't know.

Like I get, I get a little bit looking for it.

Right.

Like what are people looking for? Cause I hear all this criticism about it and that like, what do you want from these women? What are we looking for? Because I feel like they are kind of like giving us personal, they're giving us their interactional dynamics.

I don't know.

Let her stay on, let it keep going. I don't think it's going to hurt her to keep going. And I don't think it's like, I think it's, She already lacks so much self-awareness that I don't think continuing to stay on is going to make that worse. I think that's going to stay whether she's on or off the show.

And the damage is done as far as like fame. Like she's already famous. She's never like not like now she's never not going to be famous. And so taking her off the show, I don't think is actually going to heal that. I agree. I don't know.

I feel the same way about Housewives of OC in the sense that I think if it wasn't the 20th anniversary, it probably deserved a pause. Way more than Miami. I mean, Miami is so unjustly paused. I think everyone agrees with that.

Yeah.

But like, and then, but I think you're right in the sense of like, Heather's giving a lot personally.

Emily's giving a lot personally.

Where is the brokenness, I guess? But it is really kind of dull like I was that was middle episodes for.

Me I think it's that I'm just not interested in this class of women anymore like I think my interest in fair I see them all as more conservative I know not all of them are conservative but I see them as more conservative I see them as like way too affluent like I'm just not interested I think in them and that that like culture anymore like I've gotten enough of it and I think that's that's part of maybe what's happening for me in the disconnect is like And then maybe because of, like, where we are in the world right now with MAGA and, you know, the 1%.

And I feel like maybe it's just, like, I don't want to see that right now.

I kind of agree with that in that it's not giving me anything unique and interesting.

Like, I guess as I'm pitching shows. Why we want Miami is because there is a cultural aspect of it that I'm, like, ooh, I want to hear. I don't know that.

I don't know those women in my real life. Like, I want to know more about them. Yeah, I think you're fair. I think if I was going to rebuild, I would say I still am interested in Heather, even though she doesn't really belong on the show.

She lives in Los Angeles.

I think Heather should go to Beverly Hills. I think she could be interesting with them. That's fair. And Tamara, Tamara's the lead of the show. I think you need her. I actually think Emily is bringing a lot with Shane and I'm interested. I mean, her story with her son is just devastating. I mean, I just thought when she said that we live in a nightmare, I'm like, that's my worst nightmare. Gina brings nothing. I would love to see Emily on the show or Gina on the show without the other. But I think I'm more interested in Emily because I don't think Gina really brings that much.

I like Gina. So I'm sad to say that. But I do think like because of her situation with her partner and his ex that she can't show enough of her personal life. And I get why she can't because of legal stuff and wanting to protect children. And I think that's smart. But because of that, I think it makes her less interesting. Like if we could hear all about that dynamic and really get into it. And see the ex-wife even, yeah. But I totally get why she can't and I respect it. But I think it also just makes it hard for her to be.

To bring a lot. The messy reality TV producer in me is like, cast the ex-wife and let's like do this. let's fucking do it um but i don't think it might help their legal problems actually because if she agrees to it then she can't like hold anything she could try but the courts would have to like throw it yeah and then she would be in the court of opinion which would be harder on her to be honest and carmela's a good addition because she kind of fits in and she fits the oc mold from the very beginning but she brings she doesn't bring it i mean i'm not interested in her situation with her boyfriend whatever i just don't care yeah I just don't care about her enough to care what happens in her life.

I think she brought some tension with because of what like Vicky's reaction to her and that was needed. But yeah, I don't I don't know if she has like staying power.

Yeah. I mean, if I'm going to be totally honest, the only person that I care like actually care to see what happens in their life. is probably, and I don't even really like Emily this season, but probably Emily, because I do want to see what happens with her and Shane. But everybody else is just kind of like, I don't really, I'm not invested in what's happening in their lives. No.

I feel like we could toss OC and keep these women around for like the smaller projects, like the ultimate girl scripts or the wife swaps or the like, because they're interesting characters, but they're not interesting enough anymore.

Yeah.

To and then move heather to beverly hills that's my resolution.

Yeah because i do i like heather in a dynamic of women but she's so played out and then being like she's fake and she does i'm like leave heather alone heather's queen but i.

Love that heather is now just like she's like i'm a fake bitch like because everyone they're like it wasn't that much tension why was tamara blah blah blah and heather's just like yeah i didn't feel the tension but maybe that's also because i'm a fake bitch so i don't mind it i mean i just i respect heather respect I mean, I think at this point she's just punching so above her weight. Like she would kill on a show that she could actually do something.

And I mean, in a sense, Tamra too. But yeah, I think it needs a pause. I think we did the 20th anniversary for everyone's, you know, whatever. And we can, you know, hit the dial.

Hit pause on this. Put the funding into Miami.

Well, and I will say New York... I'm loving.

It's come back.

Maybe our next podcast needs to be on New York. Who do we want to dive into in New York?

Oh, I don't know.

Jessel? Erin? I feel like we should dive into one of them.

Martha Stewart is a friend of Facebook. Would you have let your child take the water from Martha Stewart's table?

100%.

I would have filmed it probably and put it on my Instagram.

That was like the most iconic moment. I was so sad that like I have never....

Like seeing Martha Stewart on the street and had her give my child something from her lunch table. That's a new goal, though.

I don't know, because I really like the new girls.

Maybe Carol. Carol would be a good one.

Yeah, that Epstein-Files situation was... I was team Psy. I'm really interested in Psy, but we don't know enough about Psy to do a podcast on her.

I really like Psy this season, which is interesting because I didn't like her before. I thought it was so nuanced because I was both team Psy and team Carol around it.

Oh, interesting.

I do think that you know, the questions need to be asked.

Like, hey.

And I feel like I did not, I think Carol's answers were a little bit defensive. I'm not friends with her. I'm not, like, distance myself, distance myself. Where I think it would have been better if she just acknowledged, like, yeah, we're really good friends. I didn't know about that. And I, like, I hate that I didn't know because if I had known, I would have done something.

Like, I feel so.

Like, I wish she would have said something like that, something more that just acknowledged that I had a deeper friendship with this person because we all know she took the picture for a book. Like, you were around this person. You knew them. And it is possible that you didn't know all the things that were going on. And, you know, I think about, like, my friends. I don't know all the aspects of their lives.

Yeah.

I mean, you don't know about mine. I don't know what you're doing, you know, when you're working.

Sex trafficking.

And if like that was kind of like a works situation, you know.

Then work as a sex trafficker.

I mean, you could. But what I'm saying is like it is possible that she didn't fully know what was going on there. But her just trying to completely distance herself from a friendship that is like clearly documented feel like it's going to give people pause and and be like, what the fuck?

Like.

This doesn't feel totally honest. Well, yeah.

And, like, I feel like she was, like, brought it up to be like, okay, guys, now this is my chance to give my statement that I came on the show to clear my.

Right, it was like damage control.

It was almost like she came on the show for damage control, in a way.

And then Psy messed it up.

I don't know.

Also, like, I guess the Caroline.

I get it. Jessa was being horrible about the Caroline Bessette thing.

Jessa's another one that I'm like... read the room like where are your social skills.

Well I just feel like it's so funny because I love New New York I love the new New York but Aaron and Jaisal feel like they're still in the old New York and I kind of feel like maybe we should they should leave their personalities in last season because Sai came in as a different person and she's phenomenal now but Aaron and Jaisal are still playing out shit from like.

Aaron feels the same Jaisal feels like fame got to her head a little bit I can see that.

So, but yeah, I think.

It's making her unlikable where I feel like she started as, as kind of a, I do think she kind of started as like a dingbat, but a really likable dingbat.

But also for Carol, it's like, is it that hard to just like, you know, the audience really wants to know about this person.

And she was an amazing person. Like I kind of understood Jaisal's.

Point in being like, I, if I died and someone was like, it's a Jaisal tank summer, I'd be honored, you know, like, and I kind of felt like, Why didn't Carolyn take the moment to like talk about this person, how great she was and what she was really like? Because we know that love story was not really their true story at all.

I think part of it is grief, right? Like I think there's probably still a lot of grief there. Like I think she lost her husband around the same time. So those two losses like of her like best friend and her husband probably feel like completely imaginable but also like the thing with carolyn beset was like she didn't want to be a iconic figure that was her whole thing was she didn't like the when she got with um jfk jr she didn't want to be seen and so i imagine there's a part of carol that's like i want to protect what i knew about this person it was that she didn't want to be.

Famous in this way i wish she would say that then um she didn't kind of well i don't know because when she said carolyn beset summer she was like no carolyn would have hated that like she would have hated that Oh, I guess I didn't because I didn't see the love story. So I didn't know. I don't like really know. Well, it's like a kind of known history.

If you know anything about their relationship, even outside of the.

I guess I don't.

I did see their plane. That's fair.

I did see their plane. I was literally.

No. When they pulled it out of the water. I don't know. And we were crossing the Newport Bridge in Rhode Island when the plane was going underneath. It was very.

Wow. Yeah, but I agree with Sai. I could see something was activated for Sai, which I think was less about Carol and more about, like, what she was probably still feeling about David having, right? Like, there's, like, this energy towards men that she was, like, projecting onto Carol a little bit, which to me felt totally valid. That's what I'm like, wasn't that, though? I don't know. I feel like Carol's answers were lame. I feel like the sense that there was, like, an energy that she was putting into it felt like it was less about what Carol was saying and more about, like, her processing her own information.

Yeah.

And I think she's completely valid to ask. I think like two things could be true at the same time that like, and completely valid to ask these questions about something that's still unresolved in our, in our history is very relevant to this moment with everything happening with the Cornell seven. So, I don't know. I kind of support Psy in, you know, leading with those questions. And I could understand where Carol maybe felt like at times it felt like, ooh, like.

Yeah, I did like that Carol said, you know, we're holding this woman accountable because I was in some emails with this woman instead of the men who actually perpetrated these crimes.

Like, why am I getting.

you know set on fire or whatever like why is the witch getting burned you know right um.

And none of the emails she got spoke to like the thing about the girls like i don't know i might ask you how the girls are like i got what carol was saying about that that i don't i don't think you can assume that that meant the girls that jeffrey epstein is sexually violating and I don't know. Maybe I'm a Carol defender. Maybe that's not right.

Maybe I should have been more accountable. I felt like she could have just done it all. Like to me, I think she was kind of saying they preyed on me too. Like, you know, like this is what they did, you know?

I mean, that seems true though. It does seem like Carol had a name, right?

The Raziel name.

So it does seem like, I don't know how much of her relationship with Ghislaine was authentic versus Ghislaine kind of being like, this is someone who has some like, who has got a powerful last name. But again, I think she should have just been copped to the relationship. Like, yeah, we were friendly. I didn't meet Jeffrey. I don't know what was happening there.

Maybe we need to do Carol because there's an interesting dynamic where she's so down to earth and normal, but she operates in these worlds.

The worlds that are not down to earth. These are not down to earth worlds.

Yeah. And how that, and even her being on Housewives is so weird to me. Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's do a Carol.

I'm down for that.

If anyone has any other interesting people, suggestions. We still need to do Karen, too.

I'm down to do Karen.

Karen. Okay. Let's let a few more episodes play out. I want to see where she's at right now.

Oh, God.

Tia.

I want to see a little more of the. Tia.

Well, that was devastating.

Devastating. I really like Tia. I'm sad for Potomac. I didn't really watch all of last season, but I'm going to. I'm going to commit this season.

I love that for you.

Um so yeah send in your requests let us know what you think and yeah oh also somebody said we need to work on our vocal fry and like we have.

Been haven't we um i have not i don't know that i can do anything about it i don't think i said back to them that like we hate it too because i do hate my voice.

Your response was the best thing i've ever seen they were like i don't like your vocal fry and she was like we don't either but this is our voice I mean, I think we tried in the beginning and then we gave up on trying. Yeah.

I mean, if I have to be I already feel like I'm fighting postpartum brain loss, work burnout. We have brain damage. That I can't also be conscientious of how my voice sounds.

Otherwise, I'll have zero thoughts.

So I apologize for my vocal fry. I'm not going to work on it right now, but maybe in the future.

We need AI to just put like a filter like they do on Instagram, like a vocal filter.

Edit out vocal fry. All right. We love you guys.

We love you.

Committing to us despite our vocal fry. Yes, we appreciate it.

Vicki Gunvalson from Real Housewives of Orange County

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