Dara Torres' Guide to Longevity & Building Confidence Beyond Sport

0:00 Everyone was putting such emphasis on my age. My philosophy was if you dive in the water and the water doesn't know your age, what does it matter how old you are? So Nolan Ryan can pitch a no-hitter at 44 years old and Jack Nicholas can hit a hole in one at 46. Why can't a 41-year-old mom, you know, make the Olympic team?

0:15 I had no idea what I was gonna do, but the one thing I did know is in my head, I was gonna win a gold medal.

0:20 I think you could ask anyone, certainly in my generation, what female athlete comes to mind as the greatest of all time, your name would be there. I mean, as a five-time Olympian.

0:29 I think, you know, you listen to your body and you just keep growing and evolving. You know, obviously you slow down a little bit. I mean, that's just human nature. But, you know, I'm still working out every day. Started a new career, you know, at the age of what was I, 57? For me, it's just about challenges and challenging yourself and just keep moving forward.

0:48 Dara Torres.

0:50 Welcome to the Whoop Podcast. Thank you. I, you know, and I think about Michael Phelps, Tiger Woods, LeBron James, and and there's Dara. Like you are right. And I when I think about the greatest athletes of all time, you pop into my head right alongside those folks. And but I think the fact is, like, I think you could ask anyone, certainly in my generation, on the street, and you ask them what female athlete comes to mind as the greatest of all time, your name would be there.

1:22 I mean, as a five-time Olympian, and I know you're so humble, and I'm sorry, these are I know I could see the embarrassment in your face, but but I I think for our listeners, like I what you've been able to accomplish across your lifetime is is Herculean by every stretch of of, you know, by by every account.

1:38 And and I and I think what's most remarkable is how you've been able to stay grounded and centered through it all. You know, like just listening to the various interviews that you've conducted over the course of the last 20 years and just watching you as a a broadcaster and um how you compete with such grace and compassion.

1:56 And I, you know, it's it's really a testament to who you are as a as a woman and as a person um and as a competitor, you've been just an extraordinary example for so many. So thank you. God, if I'm ever down, I'm gonna go see. Yeah, you need to come top me up right now. No, but it's just I I I don't I know you're living it every day, so you don't you don't it's not you don't realize it, but for those of us on the outside who have been observing your career for the you know the last 30 years, you know, like we we we look up to you, you know.

2:21 Thank you. It's very sweet. Yeah. So I I am excited about this conversation today. I mean, this is uh the longevity of your career to to be able to compete into your 40s at at a high level. And I mean, I think even like now, if we were to look at the fittest woman on earth who is in your age bracket, you are not.

2:41 I would have wanted to finish high. I mean, come on, there's no way. Um but but I you know it's just really a conversation about resilience and and now you're a head coach uh at Division I program Boston College. You are um running the swimming and diving program there, and so you know, uh you've really I think put together this um extraordinary, I think, uh life and career, and and I'm excited to dig dig in today.

3:05 Thank you. So yeah, well it's it's uh we're gonna keep coming back to it, but um you know, when you think about this notion of reinvention, you know, I I think that's kind of a core feature of just if you can just talk through the five Olympics and just give us a little bit of a timeline. Uh and then I I think the the reinvention piece is gonna come up naturally.

3:29 Definitely will.

3:30 Um, so my first Olympics was in 1984, and I was I just finished my junior year in high school, so I was 17. Uh the event that was my best event was a non-Olympic event, and now it's been an event from that four years later, the 88 Olympics on, uh, which was the 50 freestyle. And so I ended up making the team on a relay.

3:50 But it's really funny because I was like in the Olympic Village and just like, oh my god, there's Michael Jordan, oh my god, there's Patrick Eurin, oh my god, Mary Lou Renton, you know, Carl Lewis. And it was like, wait, I'm here too, you know. And I it didn't really like hit me that I was there too.

4:03 I was just like, yeah. 17. And I and I wanted pictures of everyone, and just you know, so it was that Olympics was definitely kind of like a blur because um it was just it was in my hometown. It was just so cool to be there. Um, I swam my first race in the prelims in in on the relay and did horribly, like horribly.

4:23 And I'm like, oh my god, they're not gonna let me go come back and swim at night, they're gonna put someone else on it. And I guess after much talk and stuff, um the coaches decided to put me on and I swam my best time. It was great, but I think I was just so nervous. Like before my race, I had to go to like a tent, and because I was like flushed and sweating, and you know, I just I wasn't used to like the 10,000 people there watching, or used to like your parents and maybe your brother or sister, and that's it, you know.

4:47 And so um it was a little overwhelming to say the least, but um, it was a great experience, and uh you know, like I said, it was kind of a blur, and I look back on the pictures and it just um it brings back great memories, but uh I definitely was not mature at that point. Then I go to my next Olympics in 1988 in Seoul Korea, and um that was I was in the middle of a of a um eating disorder, and um you know you're at University of Florida, yeah.

5:13 University of Florida, yeah. I was in my third, just going into my third year, uh finishing my third, my junior year, and it was it was a lot, you know. I think emotionally I wasn't really there. Um, there were a lot of expectations on me because going into those Olympic Games, I had the fastest time, and then I just kind of blew it.

5:30 And was you know the eating disorder, if I may ask, a manifestation of just the pressure and expectations?

5:36 Um I it honestly it there was a lot of pressure in college to be a certain weight, and we got weight every week, and we got he would bring the scale to the school plane when we go on trips, and it was just like I think, and then someone suggested I'm like, wait, what are you doing? You know, and then it just became like a habitual thing.

5:52 And and you know, because if you didn't make the the workouts were so hard that we did at University of Florida, and and I actually I love the coach and I loved how he would think outside the box and not just do old school stuff, which was great. And that's something that I'm I've learned when I, you know, started my coaching a couple years ago.

6:10 You know, it's one of those things that he just thought if if you look intimidated on the starting blocks, your competitors will be intimidated, and you know, and they didn't know back then, like guys, you know, whatever, it was male coaches, and and so um they weren't trying to do harm.

6:25 No, they were not trying to do any harm at all.

6:27 And and I made the choice. It's not like they forced me anything. I made the choice, but I didn't want to be stuck doing extra workouts if you didn't make weight because the work I was so exhausted as it was. So that's what kind of happened. And so I think just mentally and physically, I just wasn't there.

6:41 I mean, I I won a silver and a bronze, but it still just wasn't a good Olympics for me. And then fast forward, I retired after I graduated college. I was working at NBC Sports, and I saw um I was actually logging tape. And I know you're old enough to know what that is, right? When I say that to young kids, they have no idea what I'm talking about.

7:00 But um, Brian Botano was doing an interview and and I was logging like different um quotes, and um he started talking about making a comeback, and I don't know, it just kind of resonated with me. And I'm like, oh, it'd be cool, like I don't swim in two years, like maybe I'll make a comeback. And then I just was like, okay, I'll just do it, you know.

7:16 And and back then in '92, like you didn't see a lot of athletes competing post-college because you normally there was no money in swimming, and normally you'd have to like get a job and stuff. And so I was able to to get support and to go. I had 11 months. I made the decision 11 months before Olympic trials and and just decided to do it.

7:37 And and it was a wonderful experience. It was in Barcelona, and uh I only made a relay, I didn't still didn't get that individual event after after three Olympics. I just figured it that's just my fate, you know, and and um was one of the team captains, just you know, it was it was good to be. I was the oldest one on the team, they called me grandma at 25, and you know, I know, I know, it's crazy.

7:59 So the the idea is that you peak in your early 20s. The idea was like late for girls at least, late teens, like early 20s. So, and that was it. I'm like, okay, I'm done. I've been to three, I have four medals, like you know, no one could say they've been to three, yeah, whatever. And then um, I got a job and was working in in New York and doing some modeling and TV, and um, and then got the itch a year before 2000.

8:23 And at that point I was 33, and I was like, well, this, you know, I'd be the oldest, that'd be kind of cool, you know. And for me, it's all about like challenges, like you know, making a comeback at 25, that was a challenge. And now I'm doing something that not many people do at 30. Yeah, at 33, and I hadn't touched the water.

8:40 Um, and so I went into those um, those sort of the training and Olympic trials with not high expectations, you know, because I didn't know what was going to happen, but I don't know, it just went well and I ended up qualifying in five events and finally won three individual uh bronze medals and then two golds, and the realized I'm like, okay, now I'm like really done.

9:00 That's it, like I'm uh, you know, no more. And it was it was fun kind of being the oldest, but I had been out of the loop for so long that I didn't really have like friends on the team, you know. I was kind of like, you know, what am I doing here? You know, and and so I was like, okay, now I'm really done, like that's it.

9:15 I gotta concentrate, maybe have a family and move on. And then I guess it was uh I had my daughter and um well right before right before let's see, I I got pregnant with my daughter.

9:25 Okay.

9:26 And um, like a month, and I was swimming off and on just for fun. And a month before I had her, actually a week before I had her, um, my my old my old coach who I wasn't swimming with at the time, he was like the head coach at this club I was swimming in. I was swimming with a master's coach. And he came up to me and asked if I would swim at Masters Nationals that were being held at this pool, and I was like, No.

9:47 And he's like, Well, it's only it's like in a month, so it's like three weeks after you deliver. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't think my doctor's gonna let me do that, you know? And and so um I don't know.

9:55 You've been swimming all during your pregnancy, but just like three days a week.

9:58 Okay. And so, so, you know, for me, okay, there's the other challenge again, you know, and I'm like, oh, this might be good actually. But I had told him no, and then I had Tessa, and after a week and a half, I asked my doctor, and he's like, just be careful, like it's fine. And so three weeks after I had her, I swam at Masters Nationals and actually did okay.

10:16 And I'm like, okay, this isn't bad, you know. And that was and that was done. I'm like, okay, now I'm really done. And then my daughter's dad was like, well, there's another meet, like in a f in a couple months, and he was swimming too. And um, he said, let's let's go to that, we'll take tests, and then you could be done.

10:30 I'm like, okay, well, I went to that meet, and that was a little under two years before 2008. He was like, Let's do it. I said, fine, and we go and I, I don't know, one of the events I qualified for trials, and I, and then all these like older people started coming up to me, and they're like, You have to do this, and and you need to represent middle-aged people, and da-da-da-da.

10:48 I'm like, okay, yeah, no problem, you know. And so I get back, and the first thing I do is I turn to my daughter's dad. I was like, What did I say I was gonna do? He's like, compete again. I'm like, oof, you know, and I was like, Well, let me go see my doctor. And so I went to my doctor, my orthopedic guy, because I've had numerous surgeries, and I'm like, Can you just do an x-ray of my body?

11:06 And like, not that anyone ever does that, but I'm like, Can you do an x ray and just make sure everything's okay? He's like, why? And I said, uh, well, I think I'm gonna make a comeback. I want to make sure like I can do this like body-wise, because I am like, you know, 39. And he was like, he's like, sure.

11:19 And I don't even know if he took pictures. He's like, yeah, everything looks good. I'm like, great, you know, and and so she's gonna do it anyway. Right, I know. So so that was it, and I decided to make a comeback. And I think the biggest there were a lot of differences from my first Olympics and just throughout the years, everything from technology changing, the pool changing, um, but most of all, I think just the maturity.

11:39 And everyone puts such an emphasis on my age going into those Olympic Games and having a kid and like physically what you can do. Right, what I can do. And I'm thinking, well, okay, so Nolan Ryan can pitch a no-hitter at at 44 years old, and Jack Nicholas can, you know, uh hit a hole in one at 46. Why can't a 41-year-old mom, you know, make the Olympic team?

11:58 So that's kind of what my attitude was. Now, I had no idea what I was gonna do, but the one thing I did know is in my head, I was gonna win a gold medal. Like that was it. Like, I was gonna win a gold medal. And I kept that thought, even the days that I was like exhausted, I kept that thought in my head.

12:12 But the training was much different. Like I, when I trained in in uh seven years before that um for the 2000 Olympics, it was all about getting muscle and you know, taking creatine and getting huge, you know. And yeah, and and this time around it was so different because um I had a uh a uh strength coach who, you know, really just knew the body, and we did mostly like body weight training.

12:37 Yeah. And and I remember like my first session, my coach walked in, the one who said who wanted me to swim in the meat, he ended up being my coach. Um, he was like, What are you doing? I had like little three-pound like dumbbells, and I'm like kneeling on a balanced ball, and I'm like doing like, you know, um just some flies and stuff.

12:54 And um, I'm like, I don't know, this is what he wants me to do. And and he just was kind of against it. He wanted me to do lap pull downs and you know, chest press and all this stuff. And I said, tell you what, I go, I I have less than two years into the Olympic Games. Why don't we just see how it goes this year?

13:09 And then I'll have a whole nother year to like gain more muscle if that's what you want me to do. And so that sum that next summer year goes by, and um I break an American record, I'm doing my best times. And so he's like, Hey, do you have your strength trainer's phone number? I want the other kids to do this.

13:24 So so the training changed a lot, you know? And do you think that was more of a product of where you were at age-wise?

13:30 Like, would that same training methodology methodology work for a collegiate athlete?

13:35 100%, because he works with the best athletes in the world, like Sidney Crosby and and Taylor Hall, and like all these, he works with the customer.

13:42 So it's lots of our heavy and more muscle endurance then to lower weight, higher reps.

13:47 Yeah, and and really working, it's really working the little muscles that like so simmer is really use the front of their body like when they're pulling the water and stuff. So they that's why we're hunched over a lot. Um, and so he would work the muscles like in between the scapula shoulder blades, you know, to try to get it.

14:03 That's most relevant.

14:04 Yeah, and to have like a straight line when you're in the water and stuff. And so that was a little bit different. Also, you know, I went from nine workouts a week to five workouts a week. And in my head, I'm like, okay, like how is this gonna work? Yes. Yeah. And I was always a type, like after practice, I'd go for a run or I would do something, you know, and I'm like, five workouts.

14:22 Like, that's I had like three days off or two days off, and you know, it just it was nuts for me. And so it took a while for me mentally to understand that this is what I need. I can't compare myself to like 18-year-old kids, which I was swimming with in the same lanes.

14:36 We're probably doing more volume than they need to, to be honest.

14:38 Yeah, a hundred percent.

14:39 A hundred percent. That's yeah. My um expertise is in recovery science. So I basically look at the effect of recovery on performance. Yeah. So and and have looked at every single discipline, swimming included, and um, more is not better, that is for sure.

14:52 No, a hundred percent. And and so, you know, it but it took me a while mentally to kind of get over that hump, knowing that I need to do what's best for me, not what everyone else is doing. And so, you know, those eliminators.

15:02 How did you block out that noise? Because that that that is a that it's like your your why that's your wiring. I know.

15:09 Like how did you I this is one thing that a coach taught me a long time ago was that I had to trust the process and trust the story that he was bringing to me. And so I had to do that. And and my coach then also had a a degree in physiology and uh like a master's in and stuff. So he really knew the body inside and out.

15:26 He'd do lactic lactic testing and you know, all this stuff.

15:29 So yeah, so he just kept you in ranges that he knew was were functional already.

15:34 Yeah, he'd do finger pricks all the time for us. But those Olympics probably I think what makes it so different from all the others is that I saw things much differently through the eyes of a 41-year-old than I did as 33 and 25 and 17, you know. Um, so it um it it was just it was I I was much appreciated.

15:53 Like, like I appreciated the, you know, the workers that worked there. I'd say thank you, even though they spoke Mandarin, you know. And like I just it was just I was so happy to be there. And I think the kids were like bouncing off the walls like I did at 17 and 21. Um, but it was just just being there and being a part of that, and you know, just not listening to the outside outside noise and just doing what I needed to do was just it was awesome.

16:17 And I also thought at some point, you know, I could share it with Tessa. So yeah. Yeah. So that was that was a long story for the differences between the first and the first thing.

16:26 No, but I think that really sets the stage, you know, when you when you think about this this notion of longevity, right? And and I think that that has become uh very much a mainstream conversation because we're realizing that wow, we can actually control the pace of our aging, right? And and not uh through the lens of being obsessed necessarily, but just like, hey, you know, if we want to live a really quality life, like there are things that we can do to help ourselves, right?

16:53 So when you think about this longevity space generally drawing on the five, you know, the the your own career that is one of just persistence and resilience, mind, body, heart, soul. Um, you know, what where what do people get wrong about longevity?

17:09 Um well, the biggest thing that I learned is you have to listen to your body. You know, you you still think you're like 20 years old or whatever. I mean, the only thing that I can do that I did when I was younger are pull-ups, you know. I do about like sets of 10, like I don't know, three sets or four sets of 10 just to get them in every week.

17:25 So that's like the only thing I can do. But there's just stuff that like I'll try to shoot a three-pointer uh because I played basketball in high school. I can't. I don't have the strength to do it anymore, you know. So you you think you can still do what you did when you were 20, but you know, it's okay to not be able to do that, you know?

17:40 And um, you know, listen to your body as far as recovery goes and stuff. Um, I feel like that was a big lesson that I learned, especially going into, you know, my last Olympic Games, uh, was to just take care of your body and and allow it to recover.

17:54 What aspects of recovery do you feel like are most were most important for you?

17:58 More like the physical part of it. I mean, you can take certain things for recovery and you know, making sure you're eating certain foods for recovery, but for me it was like I have to feel it. Like that's how I'm wired. It's not more a mental thing, it's more like I need to feel it. Physically slowing down.

18:13 Yeah.

18:14 Yeah. I I'm I remember listening to a story you told about um I I forget which if this was your fourth Olympics or your fifth Olympics, but you know, just essentially like actually taking time off and then coming after a couple days off, like coming back to the pool and swimming your fastest times. You know, I mean that's that's obviously like no surprise, right?

18:36 And I think people miss that, especially the really elite athletes who believe more is better, you know.

18:41 That was my fourth Olympics, and I had that coach that always stuck with me. You know, that's where I started to learn about recovery was from him.

18:48 And you felt because you felt it. Yeah, and obviously your results showed that that was the the that was the there's a a a connection there that is undeniable. The rest. It is, I think too, like there's a mental side of rest as well. You know, what did you learn about the the mental piece?

19:05 Well, that's hard for me because I'm always going. Like, I don't think I the only time I allow my b my brain to shut down is just when I go to bed. Like the minute I wake up, like I'm it's just so there wasn't a lot of like I I think the only thing was understanding that I don't have to do what everyone else is doing, that I need to do what's best for me.

19:23 But other like my brain just doesn't shut down. Like it's just who I am. A lot of people know that. Yeah.

19:28 I don't think that's a bad thing, to be clear, right? Um, I think that's that's what makes you who you are and makes you so special. We have access obviously to the the most talented athletes in the world, like yourself, you know, and and um one of the things that is very clear to me is that talent matters, of course, you know, but at the top, everyone is talented, right?

19:49 When you look to the left and right, when you're in the pool, everyone is very, very good. What do you think are the core differentiators? You know, how does how does someone like you, you know, like what what makes you different in terms of your ability to achieve?

20:03 So when I was younger, my coach always would say, Oh, she, and I didn't know what he meant by this, like, oh, she has natural talent or whatever. And I remember being interviewed at 13, actually 14 at national, I won my first nationals, and um Diana Nayad, she was interviewing me for ABC Sports, and um she was like, So, so why do you think like you're so fast?

20:22 I'm like, Oh, I have natural talent, you know, and I and and of course looking back, I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe I said that. Um, but you know, I I really did. Like I could stay, I can take weeks off and then when I was younger and stand up and be able to break break like national age group records, like no problem.

20:37 But then your body changes, you become more of a woman, and then you have to actually start training and so you get your period. Yes, yes, get your you your men, you menstruate.

20:45 So you're no longer like a functionally little boy, right? Exactly.

20:49 Exactly. So and then everything changes, you know. And and um, you know, I just think that that that's one thing, but also like I don't think I think you're just born with this. Like you just like I want to win at everything, you know, like everything I do, like I want to win. Like if if I'm coaching my kids and I and they're like goofing off or doing something, I'm like, listen, I can even do that, or they're complaining about it, and then like they're like, no, you can't.

21:10 And so they they leave, I put my suit on, I get in the pool and I have a lifeguard video.

21:14 You're talking your kids, your student athletes.

21:15 My student athletes, yeah. And I get in the pool and I video, I'm like, here you go, you know? And so like I'm just ultra competitive, and I think that's something that just always has been in me. Like I used to have to be the first one done eating at the dinner table. I used to be the first one in the car and get the best seat, and you know, and so it just um it's something that I think is just who you are.

21:33 Yes, yeah. I don't think you can learn that. And do you think when you when you think about the characteristics, like are is everyone at the top like competitive like that?

21:42 I I think so. I I really do. I mean, I think there's quiet competitors and there's like loud competitors, but I think like, you know, just seeing the other athletes and and how they function, I think they're the same way.

21:53 And is it is a competition with self I know for me personally that was a real evolution. Like it was less about the the other person more about competing with myself. You know, I feel like that's the healthiest version potentially. But there is like inspiration in terms of wow, that's the bar, you know.

22:08 Um, and I think that's important, but the social comparisons can also be, you know, pretty tough.

22:13 Yeah, I think that, you know, one of the things I learned with this coach in in uh Richard Quick in 2000 when he taught me about recovery. Yeah, Stanford. You did your homework. I love that. Oh yeah, yeah. So um Richard Quick, who I swam with in 2000, um, you know, there was a point in time when I wasn't swimming with the girls, uh long story, but uh so he would coach me part of the time during the week and then I go and swim at Santa Clara.

22:37 And I and when he brought up me swimming alone with him, I was like, how am I going to do that? You know, he's like because you're not swimming against anyone here, you're swimming against yourself. And what, you know, and time. And so he taught me that too like how important it is to like be focused and be in your own lane and not worry about what everyone else is doing because there are so many times and I tell athletes this there's so many times when you go to an event you're like oh my God there's the world record holder or there's that person and then but then you don't know who's going to show up.

23:05 So you're wasting so much energy worrying about everyone else instead of just focusing on yourself.

23:10 Yeah yeah I know when you went from uh when you started training you stayed in California as a high school student to train right you had an opportunity to go down to Fort Lauderdale and potentially train but yeah and what was the just I'm thinking as like a young athlete how how did your decision making change as a young athlete versus like a 41 year old athlete like so curious about that juxtaposition.

23:38 You know it's funny because it didn't change a ton because I always wanted to do whatever's going to make me the best in a very clean sense. Let me just make that clear. Yeah like going to this team when I was 16 years old and moving away from home like this was the national championship team Mission Viejo and um you know they had so many national champions and they've won so many titles and the coach like approached me about going and I initially was going to go to Fort Lauderdale um but decided to to stay there.

24:06 And I think as I've evolved in from a girl into a woman I think I've still always been like that. So like for me you know training for 2008 like I wanted the best to be around me. And so I had the best strength coach I had these incredible stretching trainers and and it also has to do with with no ego.

24:26 You know if you have if you're working with people and trying to be the best that you can be like you all have to be on the same page.

24:31 Yeah.

24:31 And I think and I really feel like in in 08 I I left no stones unturned. Like it would kill me if I went to any Olympic games. Like for example in 88 when I had the eating disorder I knew that I wasn't at my best and that killed me to be like that. And that's one of the reasons why I decided to come back for 92 was to not have the eating disorder and see what I could do without you know having that.

24:50 So what are how did you how did you overcome the eating disorder?

24:54 Was I I reached out to a coach and said I wanted to swim and he's like he goes I'm only going to coach you if you don't have an eating disorder anymore and I was like how did you know that you know because I hadn't talked about it yet and um I guess it was just obvious you know um and I said okay and that's how I mean I was going to like a psychiatrist to help with that and because there was some mental stuff too and and I was just like well I want to do this and I want to do it the right way and I just stopped.

25:19 It's amazing.

25:20 Yeah when you have like a goal I think that really helps.

25:23 Yeah it does it does. Yeah I think that um is is such a challenge. I we've spoken to gymnasts and you know there's just certain sports where it I think volleyball too I know you competed in volleyball but um i that's an it's interesting um just having worked with uh various volleyball teams over the years um it also seems to be uh a struggle in that sport but there just seems certain sports that seem to um uh struggle with it more than others but yeah it's uh well i i it was a big issue in college and I think they put like uh some kind of like rule in that you can't weigh athletes anymore.

25:57 Yeah. So yeah. It seems like kind of quite obvious now looking back. I mean you know it's it's but there is there are performance considerations around weight and you know so it's it's like I I can see both sides of it but uh but there's a way to approach it obviously and and and and there's a way not to and um I think we we know better and we're doing better which is which is great to hear.

26:19 You're a coach now. I know shocker though I is that shocking? It it seems like such a natural evolution to me.

26:27 I I never in my wildest dream thought I'd coach because I think the hardest thing for a coach is not just you know the workouts and making sure they're in the shape they need to be in, but it for swimming it's the resting and it's called tapering and and you have to be like on and if you're not on the kid you know won't swim what they should be able to swim.

26:48 And I didn't want that responsibility. I'm like that's that's a lot of like responsibility to like if you mess up a kid's career because you didn't taper them correctly or you didn't coach them correctly and I always just shied away from it. And then this opportunity came up here where um you know they were looking for a new staff and stuff and um yeah I applied and I was kind of shocked that I got it.

27:07 I mean I know I have credentials as far as like being a swimmer but I've never coached and I think like three weeks in well first of all my first phone call after I got the job was like okay what do I do? Like get a schedule I'm like what do you mean? And he's like I go we don't have a schedule he's like no and this was June and and we were starting in August and they you had no administrative assist no administrative assistance.

27:27 And normally teams will do the schedule a year in advance.

27:29 Right. Do you have your ACC schedule which is already pretty much no we don't have an ACC we had nothing.

27:35 Oh God. Yeah and and is this two years ago? Yes 24? This was 24 and so I was like okay well do you have phone numbers? Like no kind of cool call I'm like oh my God. So I'm like literally on Google looking up like who's coaching where because I didn't know who everyone was and there were new coaches and getting their phone numbers and emails and you know just like reaching out trying to to do that and then you know equipment and and I had a budget and I already like ordered all this equipment and spent like half the budget.

28:01 I'm like oof what am I going to do about travel now? You know so I was like it was I was all over the place. And then you know all these programs on the computer with recruiting as you know and and you have teamworks and you have that it's just so much it's like over software that literally three weeks in my sports administrator was like you know I really underestimated how little you know about administrative work.

28:21 I'm like look I had an agent when you hired me so I don't know what to tell you. You know so um so it's taken like two years but now I'm like in a flow and and I think that's the hardest part like the easiest part was getting on the deck and and coaching. And I think the selling point for me was you know yeah I don't have the experience and I was asked like well why should we hire you you've never coached I said because I've been coached by some of the best coaches in the world that have a combined total of 18 NCA titles.

28:46 They've coached over 50 Olympians they've been to 16 Olympic games and I said so I've I've learned a lot and I said and I guarantee you these coaches haven't coached as long as I've swum and he was like okay that's a good answer.

28:57 I love that. Yeah so yeah when you think about I know you know as athletes like we and who have been you know coached by and I was really lucky my collegiate coach was a three time Olympian she was just a a legend and one of the reasons why I chose the school that I chose was because of her. You know so people choose there even though as an athlete a student athlete you said don't pick your school because of the coach but good God you are a massive recruiting advantage.

29:25 Yeah I well I might be an advantage but we're at a disadvantage because we don't have scholarships. So um at Boston College you don't not for swimming no swimming and diving what? Yeah so it that I I hit like an Ivy League school in that sense. Yeah.

29:41 I hit road bumps all so you're expected to compete against all the other IC ACC schools that have scholarships. Yeah that seems really odd. I feel like we need to talk to the Boston College alumni.

29:52 If it was a decision they made and you know if I can raise money to get scholarships I I guess you know and I I I my first year I raised a million dollars and but that only goes so I mean if the the tuition is a little under 1000 like you know that doesn't last that long.

30:08 So yeah per year. Per year right per year.

30:12 Yeah yeah yeah I mean it's BC is incredibly it's like the IVs yeah yeah totally wow that changes yeah it's it's hard it's it's you know I don't really I I hope they know when they reach out to me the recruits or I reach out to them. I you know there there's a program called Swim Cloud where it talks about like how important education is or academics or cost or you know and I always try to go when the cost is like all the way over here I'm like okay maybe they can get financial aid but it's like in the middle I'm like I don't know if that's gonna be so how do you you know I know just from being in the Ivy League and you know it's the same sort of thing.

30:44 No it obviously you have to be extremely smart to get into Boston College to get into an Ivy League school. There's no scholarship so you've got to have with that said there's a lot of financial aid which is great. But you're still competing like I'm still competing against Stanford and I'm still competing in North Carolina and Michigan and and and and so you have to figure out okay what is the differentiator going to be right so for you when you're sitting down talking to recruit like what is the how do you sell Boston College?

31:10 Well obviously you know the academics is unbelievable. So 12% acceptance rate and beautiful campus. Yeah beautiful campus four miles away from Boston if you take the T, which is right on campus. And so those are kind of selling points but really it's it's the experience you know if if you take the the volunteer assistant coach and the associate head coach and myself you know we have over 100 years experience either in the pool or on the deck.

31:36 Amazing so so that's kind of a selling point and especially if I get kids that are more like swim more the events that I swim it's a little easier for me to sell it. But you know I mean we've had our first two years we're going into my third year so our first two years we had 179 best times ever and we broke 14 school records.

31:53 So my gosh Yeah so I mean we're doing well it's just that we you know we don't have money to bring in even faster kids too. But we have great kids you know the kids are great they work hard we have fast kids but you know it just we need to you know keep building can you attract Olympic level athletes not usually without no not really no unless it's like a circumstance where the kid comes from a very wealthy background but no yeah so when you think about the coaches that you've encountered you're taking kind of as much of the the good right and and trying to to not repeat some of the the you know I think every coach has yeah you know their idiosyncrasies that we learn over time maybe oh okay that

32:34 maybe wasn't a good approach.

32:36 How do you how do you approach what's like your kind of general philosophy in in terms of what are you what are you trying to at the end of the four years what's your hope for the student athlete?

32:46 My hope is that they leave the school with confidence going through my program. I think when they first come into my program I have to realize that everything everyone's different and that I can't expect them to train the way I trained or do what I did.

33:00 Right.

33:00 And that was a concern of the higher ups at Boston College that like how much pressure would I put on them and stuff like that. So I think having a daughter and her playing lacrosse and knowing that she's a good athlete but it just kind of wasn't her thing or whatever you know I couldn't expect her to be like me.

33:17 Even though at first when she first started playing I was like why isn't she trying hard she needs to run you know and I'm like she needs to run harder and you know and I'm like wait a minute she's not me you know exactly you know so so I I I've learned that over the years with my daughter I had to kind of prove to them that I don't expect them to be like me.

33:33 I mean you expect them to work hard and want to be there and understand they're a division one school which that's been a little learning process too my first my especially my first year. Last year wasn't as bad, but um you know I shouldn't have to remind kids that they're in a division one school, you know and you know it's just it's it's been a process I guess.

33:52 Yeah.

33:52 What do you love? Do you are there are there aspects of coaching that you really enjoy?

33:56 Yeah I'll I'll tell you one quick story. So there was a kid um my first year who was in my group the whole entire time and we went to our midseason meet in November which was at BU, the Terrier Invite everyone swam pretty well and he swam horrible and he was in my group too and I was like oh my God did I do something wrong like you know and and he was really upset he was crying afterwards and I'm like well you know I go it's okay we still have that that's like we're only midseason he's like yeah but I know you're gonna start picking like the ACC team because you only allowed a certain number of athletes to go and I just know I'm not gonna be on it.

34:27 And I said well I'm the coach I didn't say that did I and he's like no and I said well you know you'll be fine and so he we got back and started training again and he was going he was leading the lane the whole entire season started going last in the lane and finally after like a couple weeks I pulled him out and I was like hey you know what are you doing?

34:44 And he said well you know I just I I don't feel confident I'm like get back in and start leaving the lane like you you need to go first like you were first coming into this you need to start leading the lane so there were a couple of little ups and downs and then uh we go to our training trip and then in January uh we swim at Harvard and he swims pretty well and and I put him on the team and you know we had some kids question that and I said listen you're not the coach like I'm the coach and there's a reason why I did this and we go to ACCs and he has some of the fastest splits on the relays and did his best times ever and his mom came up to me and just said you know thank you for believing in

35:18 him he's been through many coaches and you really knew how to speak to him and get him and that to me like was just so rewarding like that is just the best feeling when you know that you can touch someone not just the swimming wise but the fact that now he should be able to know like don't give up yeah you know like have that confidence you know don't think because you have a bad day or something happens that you can't move on from that.

35:41 Yeah that's it's like somehow your new identity.

35:43 Yeah exactly so it it was I I learned a lot that year and and that was extremely rewarding.

35:48 That's a beautiful story. Yeah yeah I know that's it definitely what keeps us coming back for sure it's so hard to leave coaching you know that yeah I know well I was a division of well head coach for 13 years and and a coach for uh at my alma mater for for another three so I mean I was in it for 16 years.

36:05 Wow so it's just a long time yeah um but but that's because of those moments you know it's it's just there's nothing better than being a part of of someone's development in in in a in a in in an environment that's very intimate right you know you see just the the best and worst of each other you know and and um and and you still got to find a way to show up you know for for for each other and and but I think that's really what makes the experience so so rewarding.

36:31 You know I I one of the things that I hear loud and clear just over the course of your career and and I think what you're implementing at at Boston College as as as a head coach is this notion of working smart. What is what does that actually mean to you um in in in in the context of of coaching?

36:46 Working smart? Yeah working instead of you know there's there's working hard but there's working smart oh no okay okay sorry yeah my fault yeah it's okay yeah um you know it's it's really watching the kids and and making sure that like there are days where uh Bruno and I will be coaching and we'll be like they really don't look good I think we should just like not do our workout and have them do a recovery or something.

37:09 And and you know so so working smart in the sense of of really reading them talking to them you know seeing what their attitude is like I had a kid this morning that I was coaching and I'm like I said what's up like what's going on and my sports administrator happened to come by and he was he was sitting watching the practice and he's like yeah he goes I had my final presentation yesterday from my internship and then I went out with my girlfriend's parents and he's and and my sports minister was like how did you know that I'm like I can just see it I can just know you know and so I think you know you can work hard but you also have to be smart too and one of the things that I'm gonna try to implement

37:42 this year is make sure that at least there's one workout a week that's just full recovery for everyone.

37:46 Yeah I love that. So yeah yeah and I I think this this idea well that's one of the things that I I learned as a coach that you know every athlete is different and they have different demands academically they have different relational demands at different points in their life and so I I kind of got out of the mindset that everyone needs to be doing the same thing every day.

38:03 Right exactly you know obviously you need a training I was a field sport right so I I need the left midafid and the right midfield are competing against each other. Like it's a little bit different than an uh being in a pool but I think a a pool gives you the opportunity uh to actually individualize and and periodize based on the the actual the individual athlete you know and their capacities and you know where they come in at you know different athletes have the ability to handle different volume and in different intensity and you know so I I I think like I I think what I hear you saying is that you by observing the athlete knowing their their tendencies and understanding them as humans you're

38:41 able to almost periodize intuitively for the individual.

38:47 Yeah well what we do is at the beginning of the season we'll bring in the freshman who we've never coached before or any transfers and be like sit down with them and be like hey like what did you do in your training like we don't want to assume that because you swim like you know middle distance that that's all you're gonna swim.

39:01 You know and and we really do try and it's hard it was it was rough last year because not all the coaches were on the same page as far as like what we were doing each day. So we'd have one person be in my group for recovery but then the next day the other coach was doing recovery so that doesn't like mesh.

39:16 So we we have a much better plan going into this next next season in a couple weeks but um you know I think it's just talking to the athletes and understanding like what has worked for them and then also just learning them and and and seeing what you know I mean I learned a lot last year. Every one of my kids that were in the sprint group did at least one you know best time ever.

39:35 And so I know I was doing something right but then there are other strokes that they might have not done as well in and so I'm like okay we need to start working more stroke and not just freestyle you know or whatever it is. And so you know I've learned I think each year and one of the things I do try to do is to implement like toys and stuff not like you know squirt guns or anything but like workout toys that we we use like a power tower, power rack or you know we swim against parachutes or just do some different stuff that it's not just constant yard.

40:03 Yeah just some novelty you know exactly I know I I find you know because I mean gosh I I I think when when I I think about the demands of your sport like there's a monotony yeah to it you know um and I I guess like when I think about the just your personal career and and the the time that you took off in between it seems like that was like a real advantage.

40:26 I think it was too I mean everyone's like oh there's no and I'm thinking my body recovered and you know but I was still working out I just I just energy around training everything yeah like yeah I think I was hard to sustain.

40:37 Yeah I was definitely at a bigger advantage um taking the time off and I don't think people understood that can I can I ask you so I I watched weight of gold you know which I found really powerful um and and for those who might not be aware of that documentary it basically kind of chronicles of a few different athletes but just the overarching uh I think pattern of mental health issues for folks who have competed in in Olympic in Olympics and have been a part of Olympic pipelines.

41:07 And I've certainly seen that in in my own career, you know athletes struggle when they when they end their career. Right. I wonder just having you're so you were so close to that, right? And you had lots of teammates who had probably struggled and I and I don't want to assume that you bypassed all of that but I kind of did.

41:25 You did right I guess I'm just what what what I guess when you're talking to people like what's your advice like how do you how did you sidestep that?

41:35 Have a plan. You know I I I know like believe me I know what it's like and and some people will make comebacks because they miss the sport so much and miss that like structure and and you know just routine and but I always had something going on afterwards like like when I would you know I left NBC and and when I went and you know uh went to the 92 Olympics um you know when I came back I had a plan I was gonna do TV work I was gonna do some modeling as you know and so I always had something to go back to.

42:05 Yeah you know and and it wasn't all who you were no it wasn't and and even when I like I mean you said earlier like I played volleyball in college and and in high school like I played basketball and volleyball and I'd swam and I swam so like to be so consumed with one sport I think it's much easier to burn out quicker uh than to have other distractions.

42:25 And I think distractions is super important. And and you know you're so you're so used to being told what to do and then all of a sudden it's like oh my gosh what do I do now? Like that my coach isn't here like what do I do? And I think it's important to to have a plan you know I mean you set goals when you're an athlete why don't you set goals when you're done with your sport.

42:43 Yeah and just even in the in the in the lead up you know knowing that the end might be coming you know like you have to obviously stay so so focused on on the training and and what's in front of you but at the same time I I I wonder too like yeah I think about this a lot as a parent and certainly I thought about this as a coach and I think for a lot of athletes who all they did in high school and in middle school was that sport.

43:07 Right. I think they're more vulnerable. And maybe that's part of the messaging for people listening who might be coaches, might be parents like I think you know being solely focused on one sport or one discipline whether it's the the violin or you know a middle distant runner, you know whatever it might be like I think having a variety of experiences is probably the healthy path and and as I interview athletes and and kind of collect patterns right it it seems that the individuals who were who diversified actually are the healthier have healthier outcomes.

43:40 100% I mean I I do I think diversity is really important in your life just generally right yeah just in general like it really is yeah yeah having a hobby that you really connect to outside of your work um is critical. Yeah yeah thanks for sharing that I I think that's really it's such a it's really important you know and and I hate to see people struggling you know and it happens um more than people under even know or understand.

44:05 I feel like the US Olympic committee is is getting more resources in place IOC just in in general is getting more resources in place for Olympic athletes but um but it's it's hard to not have your identity wrapped up in your sport and to degree it needs to be right but I think there the awareness I think is is part of the um the the path to to to kind of better health you know I I used to think about this a lot as a coach but you know at the end of the four years you know after they've they've been under your tutelage uh and and your your assistant coaches um what do you want them to remember about being coached by you specifically it's a good question I have no idea I mean just uh hopefully the

44:44 You kind of have to write your your episode I know I I guess just that I made a positive impact in their life somehow whether it was you know through coaching or being there for them or you know we have an open door policy they can come in and talk to us whenever they want with a bean bag in our office they can plop down and just that you know I want them to feel like we were there for them and we're kind of like a home away from home I guess.

45:07 Yeah I love that all right final question.

45:10 If someone listening feels like their best years are already behind them. Okay? And whether you know that's sport, career life, what would you tell them about what it really takes to continue growing and thriving, just evolving?

45:27 I think the biggest lesson I learned is you know everyone was pushing putting such emphasis on my age. You know I shouldn't have gotten all the publicity I got you know in 2008. It was like me and Phelps you know and um you know they put such an emphasis on my age and and my philosophy was if you dive in the water and the water doesn't know your age, what does it matter how old you are it's just like race car drivers like the car doesn't know your age you know and so I I think you know you listen to your body and um you just keep growing and evolving.

45:54 Yeah. And you know obviously you slow down a little bit. I mean that's just human nature um but you know I'm still working out every day I'm still you know I'm started a new career you know at the age of what was I 57 or whatever you know and um you know and it's all it's all new to me but you know for me it's just about challenges and challenging yourself and you know um just keep moving forward yeah and set goals.

46:20 You know it's you don't have to set goals just to be an athlete you just set goals in general.

46:23 Yeah I love that just having something that you're working toward that that means something to you. Yeah. Yeah I love that. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and insight and you've written two books you mentioned one.

46:34 Yeah just a number gold metal fitness gold metal fitness more like a workout book of what I eat and stuff yeah and that oh nice so just your basic your blueprint for you know longevity essentially which is pretty epic.

46:47 I think nine but who knows anyway I'm sure many of it still uh well that was your foundation so it's gotta it had to have had to do something right yeah well thank you so much it's been super function really fun talking to you yeah I appreciate it thanks