21.35: The Four Acts of Kishōtenketsu

0:00 [SPEAKER_01]: This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons and friends. [SPEAKER_01]: If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com slash writing excuses. [SPEAKER_01]: Season 21, episode 35. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Writing Excuses. [SPEAKER_02]: The 4X of Kisho Tenkatsu.

0:25 [SPEAKER_01]: tools not rules for writers by writers. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Mary Rebenett. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Aaron. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Howard. [SPEAKER_01]: And we are talking about a different narrative structure that we're going to be deconstructing. [SPEAKER_01]: We've done some things like Save the Cat.

0:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Here is Journey. [SPEAKER_01]: This time we are deconstructing an Asian structure that appears in different names in China and Korea and Japan and Vietnam. [SPEAKER_01]: It is not a conflict-based structure, which the Western 3x structure is. [SPEAKER_01]: The pieces are introduction, development, twist, and conclusion.

1:03 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a fair chance that if you think you haven't seen it, you probably have. [SPEAKER_01]: If you've been watching anime, if you saw the movie Parasite, this shows up in a lot of different places, yes, anime can be definitely conflict driven, but a lot of times what we're looking at is this change that happens over the course of the story.

1:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I love Asian cinema very, very deeply. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very important to me, and there's a lot of stories that I love. [SPEAKER_02]: I read works in translation as well. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a criticism I see leveled at particular Asian movies quite a bit. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they also know for being very violent, very dramatic in certain ways.

1:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Like we see that with sort of the rise of Korean cinema more recently. [SPEAKER_02]: But there's also these groups of like one car-wide, who is [SPEAKER_02]: One of my very favorite film makers all time, Chung Kang's breasts in the mood for love, these are two of my favorite films of all time, and people always say that they're incredibly slow, right?

2:03 [SPEAKER_02]: They're very often referred to as very slow and meditative, whereas I find them very tense and quite thrilling and engaging in a lot of ways, but they don't follow this Western three-act narrative structure. [SPEAKER_02]: right they don't follow this rising and then following they don't follow sort of the steps that we've talked about in terms of save the cat.

2:21 [SPEAKER_02]: They have their own structure which feels very distinct and unique and you know I find it very satisfying to move through these steps in a way that there is tension but not conflict in the same right. [SPEAKER_02]: right, if you look in the movie in the mood for love, the tension is that these two characters have a deep connection to each other, she is married, he is not, and there is a will they won't they, but by God that they never results, right, and a lot of people find them would be very unsatisfying, because it doesn't result.

2:52 [SPEAKER_02]: But in their commitment to the lack of resolution, there is stuff that you learn about what it is to exist in a modern society, what it is to be a person, what it is to be in love, all of these things that make for an incredible experience. [SPEAKER_02]: But you have to go in with the mindset of this isn't a rom-com.

3:09 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not going to get a romance structure out of this. [SPEAKER_02]: What you will get is a very human story that is about experience. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a novel that I read to Tommy Galixie. [SPEAKER_01]: And the first part of it, like I know Kishotan texts who exist, and I also forget that it exists.

3:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the first part of it, I'm like, this was recommended to me, but why was this recommended to me? [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's just this whiny college kid who's making stupid mischroises. [SPEAKER_01]: And then it resets, and I'm like, oh, that was our normal establishment. [SPEAKER_01]: And he goes, there are, it's literally four acts where he's like, I could have made this other choice.

3:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you see him develop as a character, having made this other choice. [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's this twist where you realize, oh, nothing about this. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that it was, you know, like a parallel universe, but this kid is actually resetting. [SPEAKER_01]: It's fascinating and once I kind of realized, reminded myself of this, it takes the story in different ways.

4:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not the same kind of conflict of story. [SPEAKER_01]: There's conflict that happens at it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that's not the driver of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say, I think, also it's what engine in some ways is driving your storytelling.

4:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So I, one of the things that I really think is interesting about Kisha Tenketsu in a really traditional, my understanding of it traditionally is that often the [SPEAKER_00]: the 10 in it is another story. [SPEAKER_00]: So you'll have like establishment of and like a world movement through that world.

4:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Something outside of the world of the story that you're currently in and then something that gives you an understanding of how these two things are actually like part of some greater narrative. [SPEAKER_00]: And so in some ways, it is a journey of understanding. [SPEAKER_00]: And it puts a little bit of the onus on you as the reader, watcher, listener, player.

5:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people argue that Super Mario is actually Kishotanketsu, I don't know why, but I'm just saying it. [SPEAKER_02]: He's asking me why I blew his train for four minutes up here, Kishotank. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm now playing that game. [SPEAKER_00]: And actually I won't find the article that explains that and we'll put it in the show notes so you can know why do you think a lot of JRPGs do follow Kishan tend to do model in in a way that feels very distinct from say help by where it does a RPG exactly because I think that a lot of western storytelling is very catharsis based like [SPEAKER_00]: I will follow an emotional journey, and at the end, I will get an emotional release.

5:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas this is more okay, I will follow a knowledge journey, and by looking at different stories, I will understand my world differently. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're expecting one and getting the other, you're going to end up really disappointed. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, yes, all of that, and I want to give an example that's literature, which is a little bit of poetry, which is, this is a Japanese poem and I'm reading an English translation.

6:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So, key, daughters of Italia in the Hanmachi of Osaka, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So there's our establishment show. [SPEAKER_01]: The elder daughter is 16 and the younger one is 14. [SPEAKER_01]: 10. [SPEAKER_01]: Throughout history, Damio killed the enemy with bows and arrows. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a big twist there.

6:34 [SPEAKER_01]: What do we do? [SPEAKER_01]: Ketsu. [SPEAKER_01]: The daughters of Atoya killed with their eyes. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, oh, I see how all of these things go together now. [SPEAKER_01]: And that I think is when you talk about this [SPEAKER_01]: It's not information, it's understanding the connections and seeing a new network that you haven't seen.

6:58 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the challenges for Westerners like me, who love structure and want to understand Kishota and Ketsu, is that, for instance, the word twist. [SPEAKER_03]: When I think of twist, I think of a plot twist. [SPEAKER_03]: But in Kishotan Ketsu, twist can mean plot twist, but it can also mean a contextual shift that forces us to...

7:26 [SPEAKER_03]: to learn a completely new thing that invites us into a completely new place so that when we get to Ketsu, when we get to the the resolution, um, everything we've been told flows together. [SPEAKER_03]: And there's this temptation to look at the four acts of Ketsu and say, well, wouldn't that just map onto a three-act structure where the big fat [SPEAKER_03]: Well, in terms of carving a pie into four pieces, sure, you've made four pieces, but the reason this is a separate structure is that those things are, they have different jobs.

8:12 [SPEAKER_03]: The twist that you described, the kid is actually resetting, that's the sort of thing in a superhero film [SPEAKER_03]: You know, to act sooner, that would be, that would be our inciting incident, that wouldn't be our twist, that would be the setup for a completely different type of story.

8:35 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I think it's so important to look at this structure, look at this structure. [SPEAKER_03]: as its own thing, because it tells different stories than the kinds we, and I say we speaking for Western dudes like me are accustomed to telling. [SPEAKER_02]: In Korean we call this key song, [SPEAKER_02]: That is what we cranes call it.

9:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and you know, I want to talk about and break it down a little bit in terms of the film parasite Which I think is the thing a lot of people have seen that's relatively well known in the West But perfectly follows this structure, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And so the thing I'm particularly wanted hit was the John stage, which is the twist [SPEAKER_02]: Um, which is, you know, Howard, you're right, that it doesn't have to be a plot twist and parasite it is a plot twist, right?

9:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So the key is the meeting of the characters when we see them in their home. [SPEAKER_02]: They're like folding pizza boxes, right? [SPEAKER_02]: The song is then starting to infiltrate the way into the family, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Getting this job as the caretakers to these kids. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then the Chun is the incredible shopping reversal where they discovered this entire house under the house and this man living down there, right?

9:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And that completely inverts everything we've come to understand about this movie about the role. [SPEAKER_02]: that this lower class family is playing in the story of trying to infiltrate the way into this upper class family. [SPEAKER_02]: When actually there's an entire other family, literally living beneath it, right?

10:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And it is this contemplative thing that is a deep critique of both capitalism and post-war Korean society in this way that it's a complete reversal. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think one thing that people really struggle with when watching Asian cinema is a feeling at the end of what the hell was it supposed to get from that, right?

10:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Because Parisians ends in this like orgy of violence of this incredible very violent scene that happens at this child's birthday party. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a desire to take that and say, oh, so [SPEAKER_02]: this should what's the moral lesson we're taking away from this and there isn't one there's a process lesson that you're taking away from it there is you are drawing connections between the four parts of this movie that almost operate as stand-alones right i would actually argue that the movie centers which came out last year follows a kishantan ketsu structure more than it follows a traditional western three actor say the cat structure because it has a similar thing at the end of what you're like

11:05 [SPEAKER_02]: God damn, what do I take away from this thing? [SPEAKER_02]: I've experienced so much, but it has the normal at the beginning where you meet the smoke stack twins, you meet the young musician, the preacher boy, and then you sort of like the story starts when they get into the speak easy or into the Duke joint, and then you have the reversal, which is the vampires, and then the conclusion, which is [SPEAKER_02]: bonkers.

11:32 [SPEAKER_02]: But each of those things feel really distinct as phases of the movie and I think that movie maps much more onto that structure than it does onto a traditional western one and I think that's part of what makes the movie feel so dynamic and generative. [SPEAKER_01]: These are all fantastic.

11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: We should take a break and then come back and talk about some of how we can apply this if we want to play with [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so coming back into this, I'm going to, again, using Wikipedia, thank you to whoever has done the work of this, Kishotin Ketsu, we've said that most cultures have this in Asia, and what's interesting is that each of these syllables actually has a meaning, these are, it's basically, these are just the words.

12:26 [SPEAKER_01]: the Japanese characters for key, key can also that character can also mean to rouse to wake up or to get up, which is I think a really interesting way to think about what is happening at the beginning of the story. [SPEAKER_01]: In Western terms, it is the call to action, but it doesn't have to be that.

12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: show comes from a show coup which can mean which is development but it can also mean acquiescence or hearing or listening. [SPEAKER_01]: It can be in be informed or receiving. [SPEAKER_01]: Tinko can be the ten is twist where it can mean it but it can also mean like revolve or turn around and change.

13:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Ketsu comes from the character for that. [SPEAKER_01]: Kekku can also mean result or consequence outcome effect coming to a fruition or bearing fruit. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think when you actually think about, like, I found looking at those to kind of help me unpack that a little bit more.

13:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, when you, if you were thinking about, oh, I want to sort of play with this, um, one thing that I would like approach myself as the same way that I approach adding, trying any new tool, which is to deal with it in micro instead of saying, I'm going to write a novel that's using this format, say, let me try this just in one scene.

13:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I agree. [SPEAKER_00]: Great. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we shouldn't. [SPEAKER_00]: Not at all. [SPEAKER_03]: Go for it. [SPEAKER_03]: I, in extreme Dungeon Mastery's second edition, we talk briefly about Keshut and Ketsu. [SPEAKER_03]: We talked about each of the story structures and analyze it as if Star Wars had been written using that structure.

14:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And we kind of remap, retell a little bit. [SPEAKER_03]: with Kishotan Ketsu, what we decided to do is, well, it ends the story ends with Obi-Wan being struck down by Vader. [SPEAKER_03]: The twist happens, the twist happens earlier, and this is the story of an ordinary [SPEAKER_03]: own oh no bad guys and then a resolution which is the master is vanishing and and Luke will become the replacement.

15:01 [SPEAKER_03]: This is not a perfect mapping but it helped me understand that by telling it in this way the by slicing this out of Star Wars, Star Wars was no longer about [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Luke versus Empire, Rebels versus Empire, it was now about the journey of one person, and it occurred to me, you know, I bet I could write individual character arcs.

15:31 [SPEAKER_03]: aside from whatever novel, whatever piece I'm working on using that form and then thread them into the form that I'm working with and that might end up as a very satisfying way to tell those stories. [SPEAKER_01]: I think [SPEAKER_01]: This is a thing that is a great idea is to just write the thing you're going to write and then in the same way we've talked about using other platforms as a diagnostic tool, layering it on afterwards just to like if I group things in a different way does that offer me any opportunities.

16:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But also remembering that one of the things this has in common with the other structures we've talked about is that there is a beginning in an end. [SPEAKER_01]: There is an establishment of normal and then there's the consequences, the result, the of whatever exploration that we've been in.

16:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Just one thing that I want to point out about the yield stage, the kick-coost stage, is that it is not conclusion, it is not resolution, right? [SPEAKER_02]: In Western structure, we have that, you know, conclusion or climax or something along those lines, instead it is an ending of the story.

16:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Right and those are different things because you can end in a moment that is inconclusive in a different way That's not just like you know inception does the top fall over not that's inconclusive But that story has a resolution before then in a lot of [SPEAKER_02]: In a lot of Eastern media, you will see an ending that is much more ambiguous.

17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It is a stop to the action because this particular story has reached an end, but not a resolution or conclusion in a sort of either more realistic or thematic way. [SPEAKER_02]: I misspoke. [SPEAKER_03]: I said resolution and I meant to use the word reconciliation because it is, it is the part of the story where I must reconcile the twist with the normal world [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, you got me thinking about how I would move Star Wars into this specific structure, which is interesting, as somebody who doesn't really know it very well.

17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: But I always, whatever I think about Star Wars, I'm most interested in how that map got in that droid. [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't there a map in it right at some point? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's all movie about that. [SPEAKER_02]: Just very good. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, I didn't see it. [SPEAKER_00]: So, for example.

17:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So sorry about that. [SPEAKER_02]: Two words. [SPEAKER_02]: Many series is one of the best things ever made that leads into them. [SPEAKER_02]: We would love it. [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot of information about that. [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely right after severance getting on that. [SPEAKER_00]: But what I think is interesting is I think for me what I would do is Luke the character is keeps receiving basically the heroes call it.

18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Luke is being called into action. [SPEAKER_00]: He refuses. [SPEAKER_00]: Luke is being called into action in a different way. [SPEAKER_00]: He refuses. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he meets [SPEAKER_00]: the pilot dude and that guy is very active and that gives him an example but he still refuses to do anything and then I would actually do like the last moments of I don't know why he dies in this process the person who put the map in the droid like taking the last steps towards something and then I might end with Luke flying to the dust star.

18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So to me that's really it's a conceptual level, it's about do you take the heroes call what does it mean to be the person who makes something happen versus the person who things happen around which is a completely different story. [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to mean nothing to you, but you I just had this incredible brain wave.

18:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Then actually because in my head I was like, oh, the Andor stories are trilogy. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a Star Wars trilogy inside of it But really, it's a Kishotan Ketsu where a new hope is the fourth step in it, right? [SPEAKER_02]: The first three the twist is Rogue one. [SPEAKER_02]: You've now blue screened our entire The new normal is Andor season one [SPEAKER_02]: the beginning of the action is end or season two where he is a revolution in the rebellion is beginning and then three the reversal is then getting the plans and then four is the entire arc of a new hope which is just the end of end or story.

19:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is amazing, everyone in the room is kind of staring at each other. [SPEAKER_01]: Marshall, our engineer is rubbing his head and looking like we've [SPEAKER_01]: completely broken. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to wrap up. [SPEAKER_01]: The one thing that I'm going to flag is the same thing that we flagged with a three-act structure is that in a four-act structure the structure that they do not have to be a vehicle length.

19:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Most of your time is probably actually spent in [SPEAKER_01]: Show, don't tell, I guess, in this case. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so, uh, but just just bearing in mind that if you're trying this, um, that it doesn't have to be equal parts. [SPEAKER_02]: I've also seen it done where most of it is key actually where you really spend a lot of time in the normal world and then the back half is a little compressed between the other three steps.

20:25 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think the main takeaway is like three extractor, it doesn't have to be quarter half quarter. [SPEAKER_02]: It can be very flexible on how you apply it to your fiction. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can have smaller twists within the larger twist, just like we've been talking about macrocosm and macrocosm that you can do that with this too.

20:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You can have smaller iterations of this within the larger story. [SPEAKER_01]: So with that, I think it is time for us to go to our homework. [SPEAKER_01]: And our homework is actually something that I talked about during the show, which is to take something that you've already written.

21:02 [SPEAKER_01]: and then group it into a kishu tin ketsu structure to see what opportunities you might have to add something. [SPEAKER_01]: This has been writing excuses. [SPEAKER_01]: You're out of excuses. [SPEAKER_01]: Now go right. [SPEAKER_01]: Writing excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends.

21:24 [SPEAKER_01]: For this episode, your hosts were Mary Robinette Koal, Dong Wan Song, Aaron Roberts, and Howard Taylor. [SPEAKER_01]: This episode was engineered by Marshall Car Jr., mastered by Alex Jackson, and produced by Emma Reynolds. [SPEAKER_01]: For more information, visit writingexuses.com.