A Very Charlotte Friendship with Melanie Shatner...

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte?

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Are You a Charlotte? Today we have one of my best friends on.

Her name is Melanie Shatner-Gretsch, and she has a wonderful podcast with her dad, William Shatner, called No Time But Now. And she and I are going to recap. We're going to talk about a bunch of friend stuff, and then we're going to recap. It's called The Perfect Present. And it's episode 603 and the air date is July 6, 2003.

And it's a fun talk. I love her so much and I love her podcast with her adorable dad. So please enjoy.

I'm very excited, you guys. Melanie is here. Finally.

You guys, my really like oldest, oldest friend in the world is here.

Melanie Shatner-Gretsch. So excited to have you here.

And when I was.

Planning the podcast, I was over at her house and her daughter, her youngest daughter was there.

Who's obsessed with you.

She's so sweet. Willow's so sweet.

It's so funny that her daughters have now discovered sex in the city, which, you know, most of their lives, they didn't have any reason to know about or whatever. It's adorable and so sweet and fascinating, right? Like who would have ever thought?

Honestly, and like knowing you, they're like, Can we call her? You know, like, we can, actually.

Of course you can call me. Always. I love them so much.

They both just think you're incredible.

Oh, they're so impressive. It was so nice to talk to Willow. She was one of my early... Um, when I, you know, because Netflix having sex in the city and younger people becoming, you know, aware of it in a different way. And when we were at your house, it must've been in the, in the fall, I want to say, uh, before we started this, you know, and I was.

Talking to her about it and just hearing her points of view.

And I love thinking about like generationally the differences and the similarities and, you know, like we talked a little bit, I think about guests and she was, you know, put me onto some people that I was like, Oh, okay. Okay.

Love to hear what the young ladies think.

But I think they, like, both of them, I know, started it, went through the whole season, was so sad, or the whole show, so sad it ended.

And then it's just start over.

And then it reminds me of, like, I mean, this so ages us, but, like, I love Lucy, you know?

Yeah.

Like, that just became sort of, like, it was on.

In background and made you feel comfortable. I feel like that is for them. Listen, it's the best compliment.

It's the best compliment, for sure. And I love to think about that. It's so funny between us and friends, right?

Yeah.

I mean, it's amazing and wonderful to be a part of anything that lives on in this way, as you know.

The cultural zeitgeist, yeah. Because of your dad, right?

Well, I really actually was thinking even more than friends. Like, Star Trek and Sex and the City, I mean, what other shows … Had movies and then additional shows.

Good point.

Yes, Star Trek.

Star Trek was like the first one. And I remember how weird it was when they did the first movie. Yeah. Because we grew up on Star Trek, you know, I mean, you differently because he's your dad, right? But for me, you know, it was like our after school watch or whatever.

You know what I mean?

Like on the reruns by that point, I guess. Didn't they make it originally in the 60s, right?

When we were born, basically. But so then it was like replaying when we were young.

Yeah.

Which I don't know your relationship to the show because he's your dad. It's totally, totally different.

Yeah.

I mean, I didn't watch it in the same way, but I still watched it.

Right.

I mean, it was hard.

You couldn't really avoid, like it was part of our culture, you know, and it still is.

And like this.

Right. It's true.

And I mean, it's such a.

Bizarre, bizarre thing because as you remember- it was so not obvious that that was the case when we started.

Well, do you remember?

Probably not.

So in 1990, no, I guess it was before 1999, right? When did you film the pilot?

I think we filmed it in 97. Okay, that makes perfect sense.

Does it? Yeah, because it was before I got married.

What year did you guys get married?

99.

Got it.

And I remember you went to New York to do it, and we were... Thick as thieves at that time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I remember you coming back after having done the pilot, and you stayed at my house.

I did? You did. I don't know.

I have no clue. memory of why. Me neither. But maybe.

Maybe because remember how I had, I had a house that I leased and then I had the house that you and Joel ended up staying in when you were pregnant.

Right. But I don't know if I bought it yet or it was being worked on.

I think maybe it was being worked on. Right.

And so I stayed in your house when it was being worked on. And then you guys stayed in my house when your house was being worked on.

But you, you, I mean, yes, but let's also say, because you are, and this is something people should like, I'm so happy to be able to like be saying like, you are the kindest, most generous, most loving friend.

Thank you. Truly. You are. No, you are.

And, and I remember when you stayed at my house and I don't think it was that long, but you stayed and we, I remember talking about like you were worried about the pilot and, and Sarah Jessica Parker was so well known that I was thinking for sure this is going to go.

And you were like, I know, like you were- Right.

No, I really didn't know.

Anxious about it.

And it took forever for them to pick it up, I felt like, you know?

Yeah. And I mean, then I ran into her, which I think I've told this story. I ran into her over by my new house. So it must have been after that. And I asked her, like, have you heard anything? Because I didn't know her well enough to call her at that point.

And she was like, no. And she seemed really like she didn't care. And I was like, oh, no, she doesn't care.

Oh, no.

But I think for.

Her at the time too, because television had been this very specific locked in network TV thing. Right.

Because HBO was pretty new.

Exactly.

They had just had Larry Sanders as Wally was our last guest. He was on Larry Sanders and, Dream On. Do you remember Dream On? You know, that was.

It, right? And Arliss. We forgot Arliss. Oh, my God.

Yeah, that was it, right? So it was like shows for guys who also were watching boxing on there, you know? So the idea that our show, about four single women in their 30s, right, running around New York City in their heels, would have a life, it was a stretch.

We didn't know.

And then even separate from that, the initial response, kind of culturally was one of shock. Right. And like, should they be saying these things and blah, blah, blah.

It was so shocking.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I remember you had moments of, of, of, of Melanie is not like, like, um, uh, like a explicit type of, uh, you know, you're, you're like kind of, she's kind of Charlotte, like basically people.

Okay.

So we don't even have to really ask her which of the characters she is.

Basically she is Charlotte. Exactly.

But, like, I remember at the.

Time, and I remember even being, like, kind of apologetic, like, you don't have to watch it, Mel.

Like, you don't have to watch it.

No, but I loved watching it. Thank you.

But also, you were having babies.

You were in a very different, you know, place, which, obviously, that was what you wanted, and I was so happy for you.

You were a big supporter of that.

I was so excited because you wanted it so much, and I knew you were going to be such a brilliant mother, which you have been.

Well, and then that was, like, another one of those moments with you where you— I remember we moved out of our house, and I was like so many months pregnant, and we.

Didn't know where to go. And you were in New York filming the show, and you were like, just stay at my house. Yeah. What?

I guess I'm from Los Angeles, but people just don't do that. Or maybe you just had bad friends before you.

Not at all. Not at all. I think also, I think the thing that I am so thankful for with you is the time in our lives that we met. It was a time when, you know, I had moved out here. I didn't really have friends out here, right? I was just like, oh, trying to act. And, you know, you were here, you were very grounded. You've always been very, very grounded, which I really needed.

To be around.

Mm-hmm. And you grew up here, but also just your, who you are as a person, you're like a very grounded human being and you love yoga and you love, we used to talk about health and dieting and meaning like in healthy ways and you know, all of our alternative medicine.

Acupuncture, all of it. Right.

All of those things we had in common, but also like we did the way we met was that we were, we, first of all, we would be on auditions together. Yes.

Well, we, Did we meet on the auditions?

I believe we met first on auditions and started chatting. Because remember how not everyone in the room would chat?

Yes.

Because it was like, you know, a competitive room, right? But you were always so nice. And we both had brown hair. So we were in the brown haired girls room. And then eventually we got that commercial down in the train station. Yes.

And we were there for like a week. Yes.

And that was when we really took like a next step in our friendship of like, oh no, we're really, you're nice and I'm nice.

And you know what I mean?

Do you remember though, that we both lied about our ages to everybody?

No. Yeah.

We both lied about our age.

I don't remember how many years that we shaved off, but we both shaved them. And then you had become well-known. And so your birthday was like, maybe it was when you turned 40.

I don't remember, 30 or 40, because we've been friends a long time. And I was like, no, I'm the same age.

And I remember calling you going, we don't have to lie about our ages together anymore.

Oh my God, that's so funny.

Yeah, I remember that when we were auditioning, you had to say that you were one or two years either above or below the age of the character. They couldn't get their mind around if you were any other age, right?

They would just be like, out.

Right.

So we would just say whatever we had to say.

And I think we were 28. And you had to remember it.

Were we 28?

We were 28 for a long time.

Were we 28? That's cool, that's cool. I can't remember. I was trying to remember what year we met, and I really don't know.

I really don't know, because the 20s are like.

a wash. Yeah.

Right?

But like, what year did you meet Joel, your husband?

I think I was 20. I think I was 28.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it's funny that I picked that age. But yeah, yeah, 28.

Got it. That's good.

That's a good age.

It was good.

It was like older than some, and.

You know.

Younger than the rest of us. That's for sure.

That's for sure. Briefly, I'm going to recap our friendship. So, We were friends. We were actresses together. I remember one time, it was Thanksgiving, and I think I just wasn't going home because everyone's in South Carolina. And you guys had me over to your house, which was a house on the beach in Malibu.

Do you remember this?

Yeah, we rented a house. My dad rented a house there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So her dad is Lynn Shatner. I loved that house. It was so adorable. And it was so warm.

And to be on the beach in Malibu at Thanksgiving, I was like, oh.

Yeah.

I'm like.

I'm accepted into the LA life.

It's like so beautiful, but it was also your family. So it was really warm.

It was a good time in my family.

Such a good time. Such a good time. And so lovely to be around because your dad was always the sweetest.

He's sweet. That's one thing.

On our podcast that I'm really happy that people are seeing.

Is that like, he's a fun, sweet dad.

Yes, I thought the same thing when I listened, you know, because obviously I know him a little bit from you and through the years, you know, his like devotion and, you know, commitment to your family is very intense.

And I don't know that people know that.

I think he's like such a figure in our culture because he's written the books and he's been acting forever and he does so many things and now he's doing.

A rock album.

I mean, what's going to be at Coachella? My daughters are like, what the heck?

Exactly.

Like he's a force.

Yeah.

A cultural force and like so inspiring for so many people because he is the... ripe old age of 95 is that crazy it's so insane and he's just so inspiring and impressive but what i'm more impressed about because you are doing this podcast together which i love so much because of course i love you and i love him and i love what you've.

Been through and the fact that you're sharing it with everyone.

And the fact that you just dive right in like so both melanie and her dad are at stage four cancer at the same time and they're here to talk about it they're fine so this is what i want to say to all of our listeners because i know it's a weird crossover but the thing that i love about it is that podcasts can be they're they're anything and everything right.

So there are people out there talking about.

Pop culture and whatever gossip whatever and then there's people like yourselves talking about near-death experiences.

Well, we're talking about near-death experiences and it's like pretty, and honestly, like with people who've had genuine near-death experience, talking about it with people who are doctors, people who are just living extraordinary lives, like my dad, who, you know, get old and still are.

Vibrant and moving forward. But there's never, I mean, it's just part of.

Who I am and my dad as well. And I probably got it from him is just seeing the humor and, if I'm going to go early, which I, you know, can we knock on something like that? I don't, but, but I really have gotten to this place. I mean, none of us know, and I'm not going to take one second. I'm not going to have this one conversation that I'm not going to fully be with you and enjoy you and love you. And, and, and that's going to bring out humor from me and joy for me.

So it's like, it's not, I mean, You know, it's not.

Like, wah, wah.

Oh, no, not at all. We're talking about our cancer.

No, no, no, not at all.

We're talking about living and surviving it and how to keep surviving it.

Absolutely.

But I just love the depth and the, like, you just jump off the cliff into the unknown.

And it's beautiful.

It's beautiful to have all the different voices, too, come together and go to a deep place, you know?

And, like, I can't remember who I had on. Oh, Cynthia.

I think it was Cynthia the last time, but... one of the people on, you know, you have the Instagram page for the podcast, right?

And she was like, oh, I was driving my car.

And I was like, oh, Cynthia and Kristen going to make me laugh. And then I was crying and I had to pull over. It's like, I'm really sorry, but this is how it is.

And that's life.

Right. And then also because, you know, sometimes we're talking about, you know, I think in that case, we were talking about 9-11 and then we came, we, you know, shifted the show to Reflected and you know, Michael's beautiful writing on the show and, you know, it brought us to tears and, you know, that was part of our lives.

Like this was a real thing that happened to everyone.

You know?

And as you've said, and it's been written on the show that it's like a love story to New York.

Yes.

You can't.

Exactly.

You can't do that without.

Exactly.

Right.

But that's, it's just a beautiful thing.

It's a beautiful thing that you're in dad, you're, you're dead and you can come together and do this.

And also it's crazy what you went through. Both I would agree.

Right? And so just the gist of my personal experience. So I was in New York filming, sadly, and Melanie... adorably sends me this long text one day. Thank God I was at home or I would have just like fallen like apart at work or whatever. And she's like, I just don't know if I've told you, I can't, I can't remember if I've told you what's going on here.

And Joel was like, have you told Kristen? Thank God her darling husband was like.

You got to tell Kristen.

And you were, you'd been, you'd already known for a little bit, but you hadn't finished your chemo and whatnot.

I think you'd already had your surgery.

But I was, of course, panicked. But you were reassuring me on the text, like your sweet, sweet self. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God. And I wasn't here, so I felt horrible. But I mean, you were, everyone really had gathered. And your dad, you told me right away, was one of your.

Absolute- Biggest supporters.

Rocks. Yeah. Right.

Because I went a year before, I was in treatment for like a year and a half. And it was about a year before he got diagnosed.

Right.

So I was in it alone for a while. And I had had regular chemo, like just the harsh, lose your hair, lose the weight, that one.

That one.

And then, um, and then I had surgery and then I had radiation and then I was put on a, um, immunotherapy with a little chemo drug in it for another year.

So that's when you and I, yeah.

And at that point I pretty much, I didn't know it was going to be okay, but I knew I was okay then.

Right.

And now, you know, you have to wait. I'm three years out.

You have to wait.

You have to wait five to test it before you can actually say I'm good.

Right.

But, um, That's something my dad and I talk about all the time because my dad, who I think is just like two years out, he will say, I'm cancer-free.

And I'm like, you can't say cancer-free. And I hate the word remission.

He'll always say, because it's not coming back. And that's the difference between us where I'm like, okay, I have to be okay.

If it does, it does.

And that helps me. What helps him is just- Whatever helps.

And I think that's what's super interesting about going through something like that is that you learn so much about yourself and what you need.

Yeah.

You know?

Well, you just said a mouthful, lady.

Did I?

Because, you know, I think we grow up as Charlottes not really knowing how to take care of ourselves because we're always taking care of other people. And that's a beautiful part of being a Charlotte. But it also is costly to your health sometimes if you don't learn.

To take care of yourself.

Absolutely.

So that took me through this to actually go, what do I need?

What do I want?

I remember laying in bed, and this is something I'm writing about all of this, like a memoir-ish type thing about getting through it, but getting through it to the beautiful stuff. And I remember in a very hard part in the chemo, because the chemo itself is not, I don't, I don't recommend it.

Right.

I mean, I recommend it if you're sick, but I don't recommend getting sick.

Yes.

But I remember thinking, you need to pick something else to survive for than my kids and my husband. Like, that's what I had in my mind.

Like, they can't do without me. They can't do it. And I, I one day was laying in bed and I thought, you need something bigger.

Wow.

It's not enough to survive for someone else.

That's how you got in this place.

Wow.

You need to figure out, do you want to be here?

Yeah.

That, that wasn't any, that didn't, I didn't answer that right away to myself.

Me and myself had a very deep conversation and I told myself, let's answer this honestly. And I'm not sure what else I have that I want to survive for. And then it didn't take long, but I was like, no, I have so much I want to do, so much I want to say, so much I feel, so much, you know, and then I let that start to grow authentically.

And then when I got through all this, I was like.

I want to talk about cancer.

I want to talk about healing. I want to talk about healing from cancer, but also from those childhood wounds that make you feel like you have to take care of everybody and taking care of yourself is something wrong to do.

Right.

You know?

Yes.

I do know. A little deep. No, it's excellent. It's excellent deep. I love deep. It's really good.

But also I feel like, It's a very interesting thing to say that you can't just be thinking I've got.

To stay alive for my husband and kids.

Some people could.

Right.

But I mean, I do think that.

That's like the kind of knee jerk reaction that people would have. And I know it's like, obviously, if you get sick, I mean, you are the linchpin of your family.

I mean, so is Joel. I don't mean to take away from Joel at all.

I think so too.

I think they all rely on me very heavily.

Yes.

And I don't mean, there are no three people on the planet. I would take a bullet. I would jump in front of a train. I would do anything for these three people.

Human beings.

Yes.

And I think they're extraordinary. And I know they don't want to lose me. Of course. But I also thought, I have to let them be okay if I'm gone. I can't take that on, too.

No. You know?

And some people might, because they were older. Let's also say they were 20, whatever. If they were five, I might not have had that same thought.

Oh, of course.

You know?

Of course.

But I mean, the truth is, I think it's like such a big, big picture thing, right? Because obviously there's many people who, who get cancer and die when their kids are tiny.

Yeah.

I mean, this sometimes just is something that you cannot control and you can. Yeah.

And I think, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think that it matters what your belief system is. And mine is that it's sort of ordained and I believe in God and I really do.

And I believe that it's mapped out.

Right.

And so if someone's taken, that is the most tragic thing in the world, especially for the young children is, But then something about their lives get informed and their life is completely changed now.

Of course.

And in my belief....

That whatever transition that took was supposed to happen, even though it's horrible. Of course.

And I think that I share that with you, you know, the sense of a like larger spiritual picture. Yeah. And we might all say different words. I love the conversation that your dad and you had about this.

Yeah, that was really funny and enjoyable.

But I mean, yours and mine is pretty closely aligned in terms of like, there is like a sense of purpose and fate.

And that doesn't mean that things are easy.

It can mean that things are very hard because that's what you need to learn from. Certainly both of us have had many things happen in our lives where I think this is kind of the best way way we could be looking at it right it's it.

It's the most good we can bring to it at least we agree on that like yes someone else may listen and be like i don't know.

And and of course and everyone's got their own way and i think that the big challenge is to find a way to get through life where you're using the things that are happening around you or to you to.

Grow Because that's really what it's about.

That's all it's about.

Right?

Yeah. And it might look differently to different people or you might call it different things, but you need to find a way for you that is.

Kind of serving your growth as a human being.

Right.

In different ways, that's going to mean different things to different people, right?

Right, right.

But for you, who really had lived your life for other people, for you to be able to say in your sickness, I can't live just for them.

It's not enough.

Because I think that contributed to my sickness.

Yeah, absolutely. And it makes perfect sense. Perfect, perfect sense.

But also, I mean, one of the things that Joel, I think, said to me at the time was that, you know, this couldn't be Willow and Kaya's story. Right.

Which I think is also super powerful.

Well, and he was super powerful in, like, his, like, nothing is happening to you.

You're fine. You're going to be fine. Right. And, I mean, I think he willed it.

Right.

And that's what he needed. That's what he needed. And that's what works. And that's like your dad, too, saying, I'm fine. I'm cancer-free.

Right.

He's willing it in his words. And who's going to argue with Bill? Not me.

No.

Okay? No, I don't recommend that. I don't recommend that at all.

No, not me at all. Not me at all.

But one of the things, even when we were still working— And I can't remember if I told Sarah Jessica. I think I might have told Sarah and Cynthia about you because we also talk about, you know, we know Willie sadly got pancreatic cancer and died. It was horrible, obviously. And we have so many friends who've gotten breast cancer.

And Jenny Bix, when we were doing the show.

It's insane right now.

It's fully insane, right?

Yeah. Mel's mammogram she had gotten. Melanie is very focused and health-oriented previous to this, right?

So she had been doing all the things on time.

She's not like myself, who's scared to death and lets it stop me from going, which you're obviously a really good.

engine for me to not do that. Um, she's on it.

Right.

And, and it had missed it.

I had done ultrasound and mammogram and I was doing, um, the doctor I was seeing, she wanted me to do mammogram and then come in six months later and do an ultrasound. So I was going, cause I had very dense breasts. So that's why you do the, the ultrasound and that's supposed to be protective. One time it was recommended to me to do an MRI one time. And I did talk about this on the podcast, but it's, it, really scared. I didn't want to get an MRI and insurance doesn't cover it. So I said, well, insurance doesn't cover it. And the doctor was like, well, you're okay.

Just keep doing the ultrasound and the thing.

And I let it go.

And for someone with really dense breasts, you need to know. Now I know it's expensive and I know insurance doesn't cover it.

So I know that is the effed up part of our healthcare system.

And that's why we speak about it. That's why we speak about it. Because things need to change. So if it's making you mad, then do what you need. Write the letters and whatever. I know Katie Couric was working on a bill, which she said is not going anywhere right now.

Oh, no.

Called Find It. Early, maybe. Find It App. Find It Early.

Got it. Act.

Find It Early Act. Find It Early Act.

Got it. Did it.

Okay.

And it was about getting... MRIs available for women with dense breasts.

I mean, it's pretty flippin' simple.

So simple, and we know that it works.

And we know that it works.

People should not have to pay.

And people should not have to pay.

Now, if you can't afford it, and you're like me because I could have afforded it and I was scared and I didn't do it, that's a mistake. And if you have dense breasts, even once every five years, force yourself to cough up the money if you have it and get yourself into one of those machines. That would have made my life, I would have still had cancer, but I would have had it, I would have caught it at stage zero, stage one.

And that is a.

Whole other game.

That is more than an inconvenience and it's very scary, but it's not a lot more than an inconvenience. I mean, I know occasionally it comes back, blah, blah, blah, but like mostly it doesn't and you're good, you know, and you're not fighting for a year and a half ingesting so much toxic whatever that You know?

Yeah, I do know. I do know.

I did go, I did go, as you know, we discuss this stuff all the time. I did go, I mean, there's also these blood tests now, right? So like one of the things, because I have a functional doctor in New York who told me to get those and I was really scared to get that.

Of course.

Which, I mean, it's so interesting because it's, we're getting all these other blood tests because also I'm older, right? Right.

We are the same age. We are older.

And we're happy to be here. And that means you have to pay more attention, right? So we're already getting all these other blood tests.

You just add one on.

And then I went to a different OBGYN who had a different one she wanted me to do, which I guess is like genetic testing.

Oh, that's really smart. Yeah.

So now I've done the genetic, I've done the blood and I've done the MRI, but then you have to keep it up.

I just did. I did the colonoscopy recently, like a week or two ago.

And the doctor called me two days later. And when I saw her name up, I was like, Oh God.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

And she goes, hi, it's Dr.

Beth.

And I was like, oh, why are you calling? And she was like, no, no, no. I'm just calling to tell.

You you're all good. Oh, thank God.

I love that. I love that.

I mean, it is so interesting because on the one hand, it's scary. But on the other hand, well, it's scary because you don't want to.

Have cancer, right?

So just remember, like, I don't want to find it later. I want to find it now.

The earlier the better.

You've got to keep cleaning house. You've got to keep cleaning house. I like that. I like that. To put it in a Charlotte way. Absolutely a Charlotte way. Absolutely.

It's just super fascinating to have a window into two people, Melanie and her dad, Her dad's Bill Shatner.

He's super hilarious.

Just hearing them talk about the experiences that they both went through.

Bill had melanoma.

Yeah.

Stage four also.

Yes.

In his 90s.

Yes.

He's, fine. He's absolutely fine. Which is amazing.

Yeah.

I mean, he's tough as nails.

Okay.

Treatment was, I mean, he doesn't refer to it this, and if he heard this, he would go, well, he's probably not going to listen. So his treatment was simple compared to mine. I mean, it was an immunotherapy and he, and it, you know, two years into it, it did start to affect things, but Side effect-wise, but it was simple.

Right.

It really was.

It's not chemo.

It's not, and it took care of everything. It just took care of everything. It was in his lung, in his brain. I mean, and it just went away.

That's incredible. Wow.

Yeah. And he's 95, and he's about to play Coachella, you guys. It's so impressive. It's so crazy.

It's so crazy.

So anyway, I really, really recommend their podcast, No Time But Now.

Because there isn't.

About living, okay? It's about living. It's about living.

And the thing that's so interesting is to be able to listen to them talk about what they both went through, being there for each other, and then interviewing experts of all different natures.

Like you had Gabor Mate on. Incredible.

I love him. He's like my hero. Honestly, he is.

Absolutely.

Really is.

And he's writing a book now that'll be out.

In April that's about adult children and their– relationships with their parents. And he's going to come back on. And I was like, will you do us, like work on us? And he's like, yeah, if you let me.

You're so brave.

My dad's slippery. I don't think he'll, you can ask him a direct question. He won't directly answer.

Oh, listen, I listened to that one.

And I was like, this is super interesting because Mel's trying to dig deeper and Bill's skittering sideways over here.

But you know what?

It's all good. It's all good.

He's a different generation and I know you will keep trying.

And also this is what's great.

Like, and he, I love that, that your dad acknowledges you in terms of like your research and your persistence and your depth with which you approach everything. And he said, I don't even know if I would have known how much. And I'm like, that's so.

Good that he's seeing this other side of you. Thank you. So sweet to listen to.

It's an inspiring story. to get to witness on the podcast as well.

Thank you, my friend. All right, so now you're here.

You're here with me. Let's talk sex in the city.

Let's talk sex in the city.

All right, so take us back because you are a little viewpoint. Into when I got this crazy job many, many, many years ago. Yes.

And so we were here. We were still auditioning, right? Like, you were still acting.

Yes.

Yeah.

I hate that we have to say that out loud, but yes. Why? Oh, my God. It was just— I hated it. I was always so anxious. It really was not for me.

I mean, it's an anxiety-provoking thing to do.

It really is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It really is.

Yeah.

But— You did it, and that was part of your journey. It was part of your development or whatever. That was a part of you.

Like in my mind, when people are young and they want to act, one of the things I think that goes through my head is I think that they want to go on a discovery journey about themselves, and they're just calling it this.

It's so true because you really need to have that want to— To do all the things that you have to.

Do to go to acting classes, dig up stuff and explore yourself and have people direct you and talk to you about yourself and whatever. But it's kind of more intensive than if you just say like, oh, I'm going to go to therapy.

But it's so true.

Though I will say this. I mean, for one, Joel's an actor as well. And like, I would just, I just couldn't do what he was doing. And also I would say even my daughter, Kaya, When she was in high school, she did all the plays.

Right.

And I remember like watching her and going, she wants people.

To watch her. Right, right.

I was like, don't watch. Please don't watch.

I feel that way in life too. I feel very torn between the two. You know, it's a balance.

Like I want people to watch what I make, but I don't necessarily want them to watch the rest of the time.

I'm torn about it all. That's interesting. You know, I know.

Which I think is inherent in my, What I've made, do you know what I mean? Like, I want to be seen, but then I don't want to be, I want too much focus.

Yeah, but my God, you've really done such amazing work and so good at it.

Oh, thank you. People do watch in the millions.

Which is amazing.

You know?

But I think that's part of what I.

I think everyone must feel that way. But, like, in the millions— I don't think everyone does.

I don't think everyone does.

You know what I think? What? I think there's a difference between, like, an entertainer— Yes.

who wants everyone and is always entertaining— Yes.

and an artist-actor.

Yes, yes, definitely.

I feel like artist-actors probably all feel like you do.

It's possible.

I want to do the work, but that's Joel.

Yes.

It's exactly Joel. Joel and I are very similar. Very similar.

I want to do the work. The work is everything to me.

Right.

But God, let's not talk about it.

Absolutely.

I was thrilled to be a part of it, right? And I was thrilled that I was a part of it with my friends, that we were together. Right.

I don't ever want to be, like, alone on a one sheet.

Got it.

I don't ever want to be, like, at a press junket, like, by myself.

Got it.

You know what I'm saying?

I want to be in a group where we're making something together. Right.

It's kind of almost like a theater experience, you know?

Well, and also, you guys had that striking lightning thing with, like, how friends were, where they— that group just— It was like a quilt, you know? And that's how you guys were as well. So everybody's feeling that. We're just like voyeurs on what it's like to have a community around you.

Which is just like luck, you know? It's just like this incredible thing that happened.

And that was with our writers as well as, you know, the actors, like to have that. group feeling of making something that we love so much together.

And it was so hard. You know, it was hard.

Like I just saw recently, I can't remember what actor was talking about it, saying like, I don't like to give, oh, it's Tom Cruise. He was like, I don't want to give interviews because I don't want to talk about how hard it is or something like that. Like he was like, I just want you to see it and enjoy it.

but it is hard work. Right.

And I was like, it is.

And I remember that we all went through that too, because we didn't have social media when we started. Right. And we were like, people would come up and, you know, of course, you know, all the ins and outs of how hard we worked, but people would come and be.

Like, isn't it so much fun? And we'd be like, yes, because we feel.

Like that's what they wanted to hear. 16 hour days are so much fun.

Exactly. In the five inch heels, you know what I mean?

Outside on the streets at 5 a.m., you know, whatever.

And, I mean, we love doing it.

Of course.

It doesn't mean we didn't love doing it.

And you know you're lucky.

Of course.

But you're human.

It's exhausting.

But I think that us kind of not talking about that for a while, somehow we bridged this area of, like, no social media, only traditional press. Right. Right.

Where we would put a good face on everything.

Right.

Because we thought that was what was expected of us.

Right. And we wanted people to enjoy the show without hearing how little sleep we.

Got and how much our feet hurt and all of the things.

Right. And then bridging into it still being on the air. And now we have social media and people know so much more about the how things work to make something.

Right. And so now we talk about it honestly. And the people are like, why didn't you ever talk about that before? It was a totally different time.

Right.

And we don't want to be seen to be complaining.

Right.

You know.

Right.

It is what it is.

But it is fun now to rewatch and try to remember like all the things that were going on, you know.

And it was like such a different time.

Oh, yeah.

Such a different time. And I just remember coming home.

And Lisa had had her baby, Arden, right, who's my goddaughter. Yeah, yeah.

And I would like, who am I going to see, Mel first or Lisa? And I got to see both.

I got to get out there because I'm like missing stuff.

I felt like I was missing so much regular life.

Right. Do you remember Kaya's little birthday party where Snow White or someone came?

Yes, Cinderella, I think.

Oh, my God, it was so good. It was so good.

By the way, my dad showed up at that party. He had a motorcycle accident, which I– It's not funny, but, like, he fell off his motorcycle, and he was bleeding, and he walked through the door. Wait.

I remember this.

Was it a three-year-old birthday party?

It was little.

Yes.

And with Cinderella and her little wand.

Yes.

And there's my dad, like, bleeding. I do remember this. And then he's, like, had, like, a poo bear, and he's, like, here's a.

Oh, my God. There's blood on your hands. Could you please go clean it up? That man is so tough. He is so tough.

The thing that I remember about this, because... I can't remember what year Kai was born. What year would she have been three in?

2005.

Got it. So the show is, the show is like at its height basically.

So Cinderella is there, a character, you know, actress or whatever playing Cinderella. And she turns to Kai, the birthday girl, and she says, you know, You're going to meet your Prince Charming one day. And she's like, I don't want Prince Charming. And I was like, go, Kaia.

She's always been her own. She's just her own self. She is just so perfect.

So amazing.

We call it Kaya-isms because she just comes up with things where you're like, whoa, you're right.

Like at three, you know. I know.

I know.

I was so impressed.

I was like, she's amazing.

She goes deep.

And like allowed to be herself, you know, so much by you, Joel.

So adorable. I was like, yes, yes.

Woman power.

Exactly.

Woman power. Woman power. All right. Let's talk about the show for a second because we'll just talk about your kids forever. So this episode I watched this morning. So it's fresh in my mind. Sometimes I have to watch two and then they get all jumbled up. This is interesting because it's so we'd had the fifth season, which is when Sarah was pregnant with James.

And then Cynthia gets pregnant with Charlie.

Oh, wow.

And so we had, but no one really knew that part. But we went on a break.

Oh.

Because it was too hard. You know, it was too hard to hide the pregnancy.

Right. And it was so worrisome for her to work that hard. It was just not. Right.

Right, you know. So luckily she goes off. She has James. Everything goes smoothly. Cynthia has Charlie, everything goes smoothly.

And then they were like, you guys are going to get back to work and you're going to work for a whole calendar year, which we did.

My gosh.

It was intense. It was intense.

So we come back and I think that they really stressed and like, really were like, what are we going to do?

Plot wise, we've got to map everything out. We've got to get everything going.

And you can tell when we come back in this season, because this is 603, right? There's the third one in that they're like, they're putting all the pieces together. You know what I'm saying? They're building the blocks that are going to get us through the final season.

It's interesting. It's really interesting. And I don't remember.

I also think that what had happened for me in life was that the success meant that we were super busy basically all year long, right? Like going, doing press, you know, doing the awards, doing this. Everything was kind of happening at like a crazy level. And I don't remember much.

Oh my gosh.

Well, that's so understandable.

Right?

I mean, I remember behind the scenes, better than I remember the show. So I watch it. I'm like, oh my God, I don't remember this at all. It's super fascinating.

I saw you at one of the Emmys. Do you remember that? Joel had done a miniseries called Taken. Oh, Taken.

Yeah, Steven Spielberg, not Liam Neeson. And- That was, and I think that won, actually.

What year was that? It was, don't know. Can you guys look up Taken at the Emmys?

2003 or 4, 5, 6. Got it, got it.

So around this time.

Yeah.

2003, incredible.

And you guys were nominated, and we were like, and then on that point, you were just so sweet.

What was I wearing? I don't remember.

I can't remember which one it was.

Oh, but I do remember you and Sarah, Jessica came over to me, and I had borrowed shoes from one of the girls that worked for me because I had that clothing store.

Oh, this is why she had her store.

It was incredible, you guys.

And she was like, whose shoes are those?

And I was like, damn it, I don't know. I just borrowed them.

Oh, I'm wearing, oh, this was not one of my best looks.

This is Ralph Lauren. Oh, no, you're beautiful.

Oh, it's okay.

Look how beautiful.

Oh, my God.

Thank you. You're so sweet.

They made it for me, and then, I don't know, we were like, once they make something for you, you have to wear it. You know what I'm saying? It's beautiful, though. Is it? Okay, thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've got some really big earrings on.

Do you? I like those.

Yeah, like big, remember chandelier earrings? They were like in, right?

Melanie was always very fashion forward, and I would have to go to her when I got back to L.A. to get clothes to wear around L.A., That were not Sex and the City-ish, but that were like cool LA. Because they were always very artistic, like interesting. You had very interesting things, of course, at Dari Restore.

Which was adorable and so much fun to go to. So much fun. I miss it still.

I miss it too.

I know.

It was so good for you.

I wouldn't want to do it again, but I do miss it.

Right.

It's stressful. But I think just creatively.

Yes.

It was a really great creative outlet.

Also, I would love to have you do my house as well, which is not even your job, but you're just creative. Come on.

Let's do it.

Let's go.

We'd have to call Gilly maybe and be like, hey, Gilly. She's the best. I know she is. We share people in our lives. Even when we don't know, we do. Exactly. That's right. You didn't even know. Oh, my God.

And also, what's funny, I thought about this later. When I bought the house that we're in now, we were having lunch and I showed you pictures. Because we hadn't moved in yet. Yeah.

And you said, why are there so many lines? There were a lot of like.

I did?

You did. Because you're just, you think visually. You're very visual.

That seems a little. And I was like, no.

Honey, you're super honest with me.

A little overstepping there. Not at all.

Not at all.

No, I was asking your advice. I was asking your advice.

My unedited self.

The house has a weird, like it doesn't know what it is. Right? Right.

We're so far off. We're going to rewatch. I promise you guys.

But Melanie said to me, Melanie said to me, why are there so many lines? Because there were these weird doors where the view to the pool and the ocean, the distance were obstructed by these doors that were very nineties.

And you were like, why are there so many lines? And I was like, this is a good point. And Gilly, who I didn't know that you knew, and maybe you didn't know her.

Yet, was my designer. I went to Gilly and I was like, I was checking my girlfriend, Mel. And she said, why are there so many lines? And it really got me thinking like, Maybe these doors need to go. So we took the doors out. We got 10-foot sliding glass doors. Because why not have every piece of the view that you could have? That was like the biggest design choice I made based on your comment.

It worked out beautifully.

And then Mellie finds Gilly, my designer, later. And she redoes your house for you. Yes.

Like just totally.

And has become a good friend.

Yes.

Gillian Lefowitz.

That's right.

Thank you very much.

So it's funny.

It's funny how we find those people. And also we had a whole yoga phase together as well.

Wonderful.

What was that? Where we went? Steve Ross.

Oh, my God.

Sorry.

Let's not eat.

I forgot about that place. Oh, my God.

Maha or something.

Early days. Yes. Yeah. Maha. But I think I'd already been going to Yoga Works, but then it was when all the people from Yoga Works had like fanned out and were.

Opening their own studios. Yeah, because he was at Yoga Works, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone was only at Yoga Works because there weren't that many.

Right.

And then as it gained popularity, they all started opening their own. Right.

And they all had different kind of calling cards. And that one was that they would play music. And it was kind of a cool vibe. Yeah.

But also slightly questionable sometimes. But here we are. It's all good.

It's all good.

And yoga is great in whatever form you want to do it. I think it's good not to be too precious about it.

I agree. Right?

You guys, this is so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. So join us later in the week on Are You a Charlotte?

A Very Charlotte Friendship with Melanie Shatner...

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