The Man Charlotte Never Saw Coming with Evan Handler... (S6 E4 "Pick-a-Little, Talk-a-Little")

0:01 Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte?

0:08 Guess who's here today on Are You a Charlotte, you guys?

0:12 It is finally Evan Handler. Yay, yay, yay, yay, yay. You're going to hear a lot about.

0:19 When Evan first came on the show. He has a lot of memories. A lot of things went on that I didn't know about. You're going to hear all of it here. We are also going to rewatch the Pick a Little, Talk a Little. It's episode 604. It was directed by David Frankel and written by Julie Rottenberg and Elisa Ziritsky.

0:40 It's a good one. And of course, it's really, really fun to have Evan here. It's exciting.

0:44 I had to watch the first show when you came without you, which was really sad. You know, it was like a little, because we watch in order, generally speaking. But what we wanted to do with you here today is two things. Number one, we do have a show, Pick a Little, Talk a Little, which you chose. that you wanted to talk about, apparently.

0:59 Yes? I sort of pitched that era.

1:01 Yes, it's a good era. Absolutely.

1:03 It's when things are, there's a little bit of conflict now happening. It's not just the initial when we meet, right? Which I think is great. But I want to talk about it all. Whatever you remember, Evan came here, you guys, just to update you. And he said, do you want to hear about my rough landing there? And I was like, what are you talking about? I don't remember anything rough.

1:22 I remember it being smooth as anything. So I want to hear so badly.

1:27 Okay.

1:27 Please tell me.

1:28 Well, watching the show last night was interesting because, you know, we're talking about Harry and Charlotte and whatever. But immediately that episode had, he's just not that into you. Yes. Which- you know, was such a thing.

1:41 A huge thing.

1:42 And then, and then Charlotte's set the date, set the date. Right. And I had the thought, I thought, you know, this is pre-meme, but one of the things about the show that I think works so well is that there were memes in the show.

1:54 We didn't know what memes were.

1:55 Dialogue memes. Totally. Things that became banners. Yes. Like, like, like those two things.

2:02 Absolutely.

2:02 And others along the way.

2:03 Because the writing was just so good.

2:05 Yeah. But it also, but I mean, it also, it was very good, but it had, it made these proclamations that became slogans that people could then repeat to each other.

2:13 Yes, absolutely.

2:14 Absolutely.

2:15 And much more so even now, right? Because there is social media and there are memes. And I do think that's part of why we live on in the way that we live on, you know, which is wonderful luck.

2:26 For us, right?

2:27 But I also think that, I think that the writing, because if you think about like, I know you remember, you know, how unusual we were as a show compared to the other shows on TV at that time, right? Like there were not other shows like us. There still really aren't, right? There's more similarity now because people have expanded and can do what they want. But in terms of the writing and the way that they were able to kind of like grab onto things and kind of a bit of ahead of things sometimes in a way, like at some point, I don't think it's happened yet.

2:57 We say early on in the show, like, well, did you Google him? Someone's going on a date and you say, did you Google him? And I remember we were like, what?

3:04 We're saying what?

3:05 So it hadn't been used as a verb before.

3:07 And here we are, right?

3:08 Here we are.

3:09 Like so many things like that. But he's just not into you.

3:11 It's just so incredible, obviously. Yes.

3:14 And I also have my own thing about that because I don't think it's true.

3:17 I don't think it's true either, Evan. Tell me why you don't think it's true.

3:20 Well, Annabella Shiora asked me to dance once.

3:24 Okay.

3:24 And I said no.

3:25 Oh, no.

3:26 If Annabella Shiora is watching, I wasn't not into you.

3:30 But why did you say no?

3:31 I was just terrified and self-conscious. Okay, okay. And an idiot.

3:35 Okay, clearly.

3:36 But I mean, you can go back in time specifically. I mean, I was doing Six Degrees of Separation at the time, a huge play.

3:43 Yes, I'm probably.

3:44 But I had vanished because of desperate health issues for a year before that.

3:50 Oh, it was that time.

3:51 And they had consumed five years before that. Right. And the Naked Angels Theater Company was doing their benefit. And they asked me, the skinny bald guy from Six Degrees, to play Mahatma Gandhi in a sketch.

4:08 Okay.

4:09 And my old friend Bruce McVitie, since passed away, The joke was he claps Gandhi on the back in a friendly way and Gandhi shoves him hard in the chest and the crowd loses it because Gandhi's been violent.

4:21 Got it.

4:22 So later I'm sitting at the bar by myself. Annabelle Ashura says, you want to dance? And, you know, that whole era, I was in this huge Broadway production, but I had disappeared for a year. There had been five years I'd been fighting for my life. Everybody had been dating. Everybody's talking about their auditions. Like I was going to hospitals and getting slips of paper. And taking them into corners and looking at the numbers before going to the doctor's office to see, you know, was I going to continue to exist? So I was a terribly traumatized being. Yeah.

4:54 And feeling really, really cut off from the dating stuff and everything everybody had been doing for five years. Right. And there's no reason Annabella should have known that. But so I had a really hard time, I think, reintegrating. Of course. And feeling like, wow, I lost five years.

5:14 Of whatever I've been doing. Yeah, that's so hard.

5:17 And so there was a lot of that. And there were some, there were a lot of... uh, uh, lovely and more than lovely women that I ran away from because I had no idea how to integrate that into everything else that I.

5:29 Was, that I was there going through.

5:31 I do also think, and I, I think it's funny in the show. Like, I think that the thing that's great about, he's just not that into you is that it's kind of just so direct and takes the onus off it.

5:41 Like he doesn't think you're thin enough.

5:44 Right.

5:44 I'm just saying there's some positives, but then obviously it's so simplistic that, It's completely taking out of context that people have lives they're living.

5:52 I don't think Berger.

5:53 Who spoke the words, had Evan Handler in mind when he spoke them. I don't either. Nor did the writers who fed Berger.

5:59 No, definitely not. Definitely not. Definitely not.

6:02 But to take it back to Harry and Charlotte, because you said what the world is doing and what they're so observant about, when I was looking to come on the show and finally did come on the show, I.

6:12 Thought- Wait, you were looking to come on our show?

6:16 Well- I auditioned for it, is what I mean.

6:19 No, no, no.

6:19 I auditioned for the role of Harry. When I was hoping to come on the show.

6:23 Just trying to make sure.

6:27 I thought that was a brilliant proposition. You know, the show was already so good at doing so many things. And I hadn't been a regular watcher. But in catching up, I thought, well, I mean, look, you take the woman who's the most rigid in terms of what she thinks a man must deliver to her.

6:42 Definitely.

6:43 And give her a man who does... on the surface, the least to deliver those kinds of things she thinks she must have. And that's great. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, what more can you ask for in terms of a setup for a storyline?

7:02 But when you got there, what's the bumpy part of getting there?

7:06 Well, you know, I arrived at Sex and the City I had already been a working actor for 20, 25 years as an adult.

7:16 Yes.

7:17 If you consider 17 or 18 an adult. You know, in spite of the illness, I had done like seven Broadway shows in a nine year period.

7:26 Wow.

7:27 I had done some TV series. I had done the West Wing. I had done Peter Melman's show. It's like, you know, which was the first Seinfeld offshoot. It looked like it might become a big story. Like I'd been around. Yeah. And I'd done a lot of new American plays, two playwrights they were onto in Pulitzer Prizes, three Neil Simon plays on Broadway, whatever, on and on. Yeah. That's all to say, every single one of those jobs started with somebody saying to me, this is going to change your life.

7:57 You know that? Are you ready? No way. Are you ready? Wow. Your life is never going to be the same again. Wow. And I had 20, 25 years of that. So- I got Sex and the City. I was only hired for four episodes because that's the way they introduce men on the show. Wait, what?

8:13 Even you?

8:14 Oh, yeah. You're hired for a few episodes at the end of one season with their option to renew for the next season if they want.

8:22 Oh my gosh.

8:23 I don't know what's in store.

8:25 They don't tell you.

8:26 I've heard whisperings. Got it.

8:28 Did I tell you?

8:29 Because I thought maybe I wanted to read for a burger.

8:31 Oh, you did?

8:32 No, no, no. You don't want that. You don't want that.

8:33 No, definitely don't want that.

8:35 Maybe this is going to go on for a while with Charlotte. I didn't realize this. But anyway.

8:41 Wait, did you and I talk about this or no?

8:44 Ever? You mean this stuff?

8:45 Yeah.

8:45 I don't think so.

8:46 I don't either.

8:46 No, no.

8:47 Did you purposefully not talk to me about it?

8:50 Well, this whole story leads to why I purposely didn't talk to anybody about much of anything.

8:53 For a long time.

8:54 Oh my God, please continue.

8:55 Okay, I can't wait.

8:56 Go ahead, go ahead.

8:56 Because it felt like every time I did anything, I got in trouble.

8:59 Oh no, what?

9:00 I only remember one trouble and it wasn't actually you, but go ahead.

9:03 Well, there was one trouble that was me, actually, of all the things that came my way. Okay. And that eventually Michael came and talked to me about, like, what's going on here and do we straighten this out? Okay. There was one that I had to say, okay, that's me.

9:18 What?

9:18 But these others- I don't think so. Okay.

9:21 Oh my gosh.

9:22 So I entered Sex and the City like I entered every job. It's another gig. I'm happy to be here. I'm going to bring everything I can to it. And I'm going to go back on the heap afterwards, you know, and I'm going to be an actor who goes to auditions and that's the way it is. Right. And I think that rubbed a lot of people there the wrong way.

9:41 Like just that. I think they, nobody said this to me. Okay. But I think, and it's not the only place I've experienced it, But I think they wanted to see a lot more jumping up and down of gratitude of, I'm so lucky to be here. I can't believe my fate has changed. I can't believe you have lifted me out of obscurity into a new realm.

10:05 Listen, I never thought that.

10:08 Well. But I'm just maybe I'm wrong.

10:10 No one ever said that to me. No one ever said that to me either. I'll tell you what I remember and what I loved so much about you. And when I look back at the show, I have a lot of other thoughts as well as one does 30 years later, 25 years later, whatever it is.

10:22 We're talking about things that happened a long, long time ago. Exactly.

10:25 But I love your point of view. And this is part of why I wanted to do the podcast, right? Because when you're acting, you can't always hear all this. Like there's not time. Sometimes there's not space in a weird way. And the thing that I appreciated so much about you, and when I look back on it even more so, is that you came and you were not precious about any of it.

10:47 You were like, like, I.

10:48 Remember your audition. Do you remember that I came and read with you? And you had that muffin and you stuffed it in your mouth.

10:54 And I was like, well, him, him. Because you were not like fragile in any way. You were not nervous at all. I was very nervous. You were?

11:02 Oh my God, yes.

11:03 Well, you covered it so brilliantly, Evan. See, this is what I mean. Like you didn't need me to take care of you, right? Which was so great. Which is not saying that Kyle had. I just, because at that point we were a big deal, right? The show.

11:16 And so it seemed because the other person who'd read, I've said this before and I feel really bad about it, but like was just like, Nervous, right?

11:26 Like really obviously nervous.

11:27 I know the other guy who read it. He's a great actor.

11:29 And I've seen him give.

11:30 Some of the best stage performances I've ever seen.

11:32 And so had Michael Patrick.

11:34 And so look, I was alerted in advance. Liz Tuchillo was an ex-girlfriend of mine. She was new on the writing staff.

11:40 Right, I'd forgotten that.

11:41 I got a call from Liz saying, I overheard a conversation today between Sarah Jessica and Cynthia, who both knew me from around New York. Yeah. Never close, but we were always in the similar circles. Of course, right. That you would be great for a new role. That I've already been pitching someone for weeks already.

11:59 The other guy.

12:00 And he's already been reading. And all I thought at that time was- why you been pitching him and not me?

12:07 Totally, totally, totally.

12:09 And she was like, because you're a star already. He needs it, you know, whatever.

12:13 Got it.

12:14 Anyway, so I had just moved to Santa Monica four days earlier.

12:18 Wow.

12:18 And I flew myself to New York to read.

12:20 Incredible.

12:21 And I read. you know, in what was then a pretty grimy area of Long Island City.

12:28 Very grimy, yes, Long Island City, yes.

12:30 And I was told, now can you wait two and a half hours for Kristen to come in and read with her? So I was huddled in doorways, you know, looking at my script over and over again for hours before you got there. Oh, no! I didn't know.

12:42 And you saved that muffin? I was going to say, oh my God, you went out and bought some muffins.

12:46 I knew muffins.

12:47 Oh my God.

12:47 Adorable. Adorable.

12:49 And then when I came, did you think like, yes, I got this. This went well.

12:53 Because we had, I thought we had chemistry right away.

12:56 But it was a long pause before the offer came.

12:59 Well, that's what they did to me as well, if that makes you.

13:02 Feel any better. And later I asked Michael about it. I did research. I think he asked around a lot.

13:08 Well, I think we learned at that point that we needed to. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Interesting.

13:13 So I got there and I was just kind of doing my thing of being kind of, you know, trying to be cool and unfazed.

13:22 I thought you were doing a great job.

13:26 I didn't realize until I got there. how really, you know, what a worldwide juggernaut it was, you know, the, how much attention was being paid to every utterance, you know, and, and, and, and, and there's a lot of intrigue, you know, Sarah and MPK would be talking a lot about why was this in the paper? Who leaked that?

13:45 And I thought, really, they're like.

13:47 Really trying to control things to that degree.

13:49 You know, we couldn't talk to at a restaurant.

13:52 We had one dinner together at West where eventually I got married. And you were very concerned about how close people were.

13:58 It was scary.

13:59 And who could hear and things like that. It was scary.

14:01 It was very scary.

14:01 And that was all really, I mean. Weird, I'm sure. I had been around well-known people for years and years, but it was a different level.

14:08 Did you think I was just very, very paranoid?

14:11 I thought you were kind of paranoid.

14:13 Yeah.

14:14 The problem was that you'd go out, you'd have a conversation and then some weird version of it would end up in the post.

14:20 I learned when we were doing one of the movies, I sat down at PJ Clark's and told people I had a hiccups on the set today, you know, and the next day, page six.

14:28 Bonkers.

14:28 Production shut down from Evan Handler's hiccups.

14:31 Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

14:33 Yeah.

14:33 Some nonsense would end up.

14:35 So some things like that happened actually within the society itself, you know, um, Michael got reports, I mean, you know, wardrobe arrives in these sealed, zippered wardrobe cases.

14:55 Yes.

14:55 You know, like a suit bag, whatever. Yes. And I had a memory that Pat wanted different shoes. Right. And I said to the wardrobe person who brought it, I mean, I'm brand new, you know, I think Pat wanted different shoes. And Michael would call me and say, I got told today that you refused to wear the wardrobe that was brought to you.

15:14 Oh, Lord.

15:14 And I was like, whoa.

15:15 Paranoid.

15:16 That's weird. That's a very different version of what I thought had transpired.

15:19 I had that happen too one time before you came. So this is interesting.

15:23 Yeah. And a couple of things, like two or three things happened like that.

15:26 So kind of like miscommunications.

15:28 And one day I handled very badly.

15:31 What day?

15:32 What day?

15:33 We did a scene on the bed where we make the bargain that I will wax my back if you, I don't even remember what.

15:40 Yeah, what do I say I do? Something. I just watched it.

15:42 It's not the scene where you see the back for the first time.

15:45 But it is a discussion. I remember drama about the back.

15:48 And it was the first time, you know, everything's shot in groups of two, so it's out of order of two episodes. It was the first time that I was very new. It might have been my third or fourth shooting day. I don't know. And it was the first time that Michael wasn't on the set kind of running things. He wasn't the director.

16:06 Right.

16:07 Uh, and, and one of the other executive producers was there kind of overseeing, which I didn't even know. And I didn't know that person. And I think it might've been that person's first day kind of doing that post too, but I'm not sure. And I kept getting a note. Don't be so nice. We don't want you to be so nice. It's too nice. It's too nice. It's too sweet.

16:28 Stop being sweet. Oh, and you know, mea culpa, I didn't know what else to do. I mean, I generally, really make it a point to arrive with three and four choices of what to do.

16:41 Yeah.

16:42 This had been one of the audition scenes. Oh, which I have a hobby watching films and TV shows trying to spot the audition scene.

16:49 Totally.

16:50 I think people hit like a different, it's like 100% suddenly, suddenly they're like at a different speed or something.

16:55 Definitely. Definitely.

16:57 There's less friction, more friction. I don't know.

16:59 Definitely.

16:59 Um, so, so, I would break this down in many ways for actors and directors. Like, don't ever be stumped for something else to do and something else to bring to it. Yeah. No matter how unuseful a note is, you have to turn it into something that you can do with it.

17:21 Really good point, yeah.

17:22 So I failed at that.

17:24 So they wanted you to be less nice, but you felt like you kept being nice.

17:27 You know, it's really better to tell an actor something to do and not just to keep telling them what not to do.

17:32 Of course.

17:33 So when... After this bad day that I'll go back to, Liz came to my dressing room. I was told Michael wanted to see me. Okay. He was going to come to my dressing room.

17:42 Okay.

17:42 Oh my God. And Liz came first and she said, you know, this is a big deal. Like they're talking about letting you go.

17:47 What?

17:48 And, and what happened was really bad the other day.

17:53 I don't even remember this.

17:54 And, and what you said was really bad. What? And the scene doesn't work. What? And she said, why couldn't you just like, you took, you took a couple of bites of pizza and you talked with your mouth full and that was good. Right. But like, why didn't you like put the whole slice of pizza in your mouth?

18:11 Oh Lord. Take eight bites.

18:13 Oh my.

18:13 And I said, well, that, I wish you'd been there. I wish, I wish you'd told me that's great because, because. It wasn't don't be so sweet. I think they wanted me to be gross. They wanted to see something that she could find disgusting.

18:29 Right, right, right, right, right.

18:30 Besides the back.

18:31 Something like bigger.

18:32 And something also. So that then when he grabs her and they kiss, she's like, do I really want to kiss this guy? Right. And I watched the scene again last night. And yeah, I took a couple of bites of pizza. I spoke with my mouth full, but it's mild.

18:43 Got it.

18:44 It just needed to be much more extreme. Got it. But what I did was, that is really, you know, could be a firing offense is I actually said, listen, this is the scene I auditioned with and I got the part. So like, as if to say, so what are you giving me problems about? Like it's already been approved from up high.

19:06 Oh, got it.

19:08 And that was, you know, that's a terrible way to.

19:11 So Michael came to my dressing room.

19:13 Oh God. And this is just before the night we were going to shoot. The scene with the zebra skin rug, me showing you the bachelor apartment.

19:20 Oh yeah, that was a hard scene. I remember that.

19:22 Well, I was told you're on thin ice. They're talking about getting rid of you. This is so stressful. Michael told me, listen, you know, I keep getting calls from different departments. This happened, that happened, that happened. Attitudes don't last here. And I need you to last. And I was very taken aback. Because I said, okay, let's take this really methodically, one step at a time. I've never, ever, ever been, had any complaints about an attitude. So first, you were with me through two episodes. Did anything happen then? No, Michael said.

20:04 Oh, Michael, Michael, right.

20:05 Good, good, good. And I was happy. Did anyone ask me? So I think I have explanations for two of these things. One, I didn't handle that well. Okay? That's bad. That's bad. I did the best I could. I thought I was giving the best I could give, but bad news. But, you know, in terms of the rest and attitude, and he told me it's all about the party here. It's all about the party.

20:33 Wow.

20:36 Interesting, right? Yeah. And I said, so listen, I will say one thing. Like, I'm not a cheerleader. Like, if what you're telling me is you're looking for somebody who's like, going to be like, pom poms and cheering from the sidelines, like, you're never going to get that from me.

20:56 And boo, I'm mad.

20:56 Like, I will come, I will be well prepared. I'll give everything I have to it.

21:00 Yeah.

21:00 I'm intelligent, you know, but, and we kind of struck a bargain. He said, okay, okay. He said, you know, prepared, blah, blah, blah. No attitude, no cheerleading. And John Melfi was sent that night to watch us film that scene.

21:17 With the zebra.

21:19 And I said, I better come up with something. Oh, my good Lord. And I went to the prop people. I said, I need a key ring. I would want to be chewing gum. And I just decided to, you know, just like kind of, you know, I don't know, you know, just out of thin air, try to. but with something that was going to seem a little more and a little more like twirling the keys and just playing up the.

21:41 Angle of this is where I.

21:42 Spent my bachelorhood and showing off the stuff and whatever. And they felt I hit it out of the park and things smoothed down after that. But it was like a second audition of like, you know, to get the pickup for the next season.

22:00 I do not remember this at all.

22:13 I think we didn't really, you know, spend a lot of time or bond.

22:15 We didn't, but I thought some of that was because of Elisa.

22:18 At all.

22:18 You know what I mean?

22:19 Not at all. No, no, no. No?

22:20 Well, because you met and fell in love with and got married to your wife kind of all simultaneously to this, right?

22:27 Yeah.

22:27 I mean, I wasn't going out either. You know what I'm saying? Right.

22:30 But no, Elisa was amazing because I didn't realize how much sex in the city was going to change my existence until... my first official date with Elisa. We had spent some time together. We'd taken a walk in Central Park. We were each seeing somebody else. Finally, I said I would come back to New York if you're ever not seeing anyone. And we did. And we went on a date.

22:56 We had dinner up near Lincoln Center at a Japanese restaurant I knew there. And we walked to 43rd Street or so to see Stanley Tucci and Edie Falco do Frankie and Johnny and the Claire de Lune. And we could not get to the theater because people were screaming and shrieking, Harry, oh my God, Harry, crowding around for photographs.

23:21 And I'm having this simultaneous experience of, I already sensed that this was a woman who was different than anyone I'd ever met before that I was, that I had stronger interest in. And, I thought there's no way someone can't be affected by what they're seeing and can't be seduced by what's going on here. And she has no idea that this hasn't been my existence before this moment right here. And how am I going to be able to tell how much is me or what's happening? Yeah.

23:54 And.

23:55 we went through the whole process of B being revealed on the show and that kind of happening everywhere we went together. And I got to see that this is a person who just found it kind of, I mean, for people who don't know, she's an Italian immigrant, had only been in the US for two years. She's a chemist.

24:15 She was doing biomedical research at hospital for special surgery.

24:18 She, so, so, She's very different in many ways.

24:21 Like Harry and Charlotte.

24:23 Yes, yes.

24:23 You know, non-Jewish, non-American, non-entertainment industry. Right. And I was having that experience simultaneously. At the same time, I was wanting to say to her, could we pick this up in six months or so? Because I'd like to play with this for a while over here. Which, thankfully, I didn't do.

24:39 Thank God.

24:41 So, and I got to see that she was very amused by it. Right. And very intrigued.

24:48 But not.

24:49 But not at all overwhelmed or captivated.

24:56 That's a great thing, yeah.

24:57 It was really like how strange that I'm suddenly thrust into this kind of Hollywood American experience. And it gave me great appreciation of her.

25:08 Right. Which is a wonderful thing. Wonderful thing.

25:11 And there were a lot of jokes about this stuff because the first two big gigs I did were Sex and the City and then Californication.

25:18 I know.

25:18 Which is even worse. So she witnessed an awful lot of romance and sex stuff that I've also never been asked to do before in my life anyway.

25:25 That's so funny.

25:28 I know.

25:28 I couldn't watch Californication because it gave me nightmares.

25:31 Nightmares.

25:32 Okay.

25:32 Nightmares. It was a lot. It was a raunchy show. I know.

25:35 I turn on one day, you're wearing some SNMs.

25:36 I was like, no.

25:38 Down, down, no. Not watching. It's really messing.

25:42 With my subconscious. That might have been in a later Jump the Shark days.

25:46 Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it.

25:47 But even early on, I couldn't.

25:48 It still was a lot.

25:49 You know, like as much as you did, she watched all of it. Did she? Yeah, she was disgusted by some of it. I get it.

25:54 I get it. I can't even.

25:56 I couldn't do the reverse. I would be very uncomfortable with with a mate who was doing what I was doing on those shows. She was she was phenomenal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:05 Absolutely phenomenal.

26:06 She didn't like it. I mean, she was clear about she was kind of disgusted by it.

26:10 Yes, I'm aware.

26:11 But with you, she would just make jokes that once I repeated and you didn't like it.

26:15 I know.

26:15 You repeated it and I was like, I don't need to hear that. I want to be friendly with them.

26:22 You know what I mean? The girlfriends or the whatever, right?

26:24 I think Elisa has very, very warm feelings toward you. I'm so glad. And to bring it up to date, I mean, then we wouldn't see each other for years between films and stuff.

26:33 Except for one time at the farmer's market.

26:35 Well, and also once at an airport when my daughter had peed on all her clothes when she was very young. She was running around in just a long, I love New York t-shirt.

26:43 I totally forgot about that.

26:45 Uh, uh, we were both going to North Carolina. Oh my God. Yes. But we wound up with kids at the same school. Yes.

26:51 That was crazy.

26:51 And, and, and had really warm interactions about that. And Sophia would come and say, I saw Kristen today. She was so nice. She was so nice. I love Sophia.

26:59 I love Sophia.

26:59 Cause I remember when you, you know, I remember the whole process. I won't get into detail, but I mean, obviously she's amazing.

27:05 And so I really think it took years for us to develop, you know, uh, uh, a casual and friendly relationship as opposed to just the cautious professional one that I think I kind of. I also think for.

27:17 Me, I think at the time that you came was such an incredibly bizarre time at work, right? Because a, yes, we had all grown up together in that, in that show, but also it was finally this huge, humongous thing that we had worked so hard to make it right. And not that we ever thought that it would be big, like it got, but to make it successful and, And then the weirdness that we were surrounded by at all times, right?

27:42 It got to all of us. It was a weird way to live.

27:46 And it continued.

27:47 I mean, it continued through the movies and just like that. It taught me a little. I can say it taught me. I still don't know anything. But, you know, there have been a few times. I mean, I've been a guy. I don't usually do a publicist. I just kind of just do my thing. Right. But the few times that I have. it has been so clear to me, it's project dependent.

28:09 Yeah.

28:09 I mean, there are just projects that every outlet wants to write about and talk about and mention as much as possible for any reason. Yep. And then other ones that it doesn't matter.

28:19 They're just- No, you can beg and plead and they still won't.

28:22 It's weird. And just any excuse to get these titles and these names and- It's true. It's intense.

28:28 It is.

28:28 It's intense and strange. And also think at that time, because of Sarah's pregnancy, right? Which was the weird season five. But you come in season... When does he first show up?

28:40 The last few of season five. Got it.

28:41 So you really came. It was a crazy time. And remember, we were supposed to do more.

28:45 Which I had no way to know.

28:46 Of course not.

28:47 Right.

28:47 Of course not.

28:48 We were supposed to continue on, but then we had to go home because she was pregnant and we had to make sure that that went okay, which thank the Lord it did.

28:56 But I remember just being.

28:59 At that point, like I tell everyone on the podcast and involved in the podcast, like the beginning, excuse me, I remember a lot, you know, offstage, right? Or backstage, behind the scenes, whatever it's called. But then we get to a certain point where it's like life took over. Like the drama around the show became bigger in my mind than the show, right? But in a way, what was great rewatching, especially when you show up, because we kind of, I mean, I love Kyle, as you know, it.

29:27 Was a great thing. That was really the first, like.

29:30 Really, really meaty storyline that I had gotten, right?

29:34 Like a long through line and all that. But we've milked that thing.

29:37 I mean, at a certain point I was like, wait, what are we doing? We've broken up twice, three times. I don't even know what we're doing, right?

29:43 When I was rewatching it. So when you finally show up, thank the Lord, you are a breath of fresh air.

29:50 Yeah, but it's just the two, the duo, it's such a great bookend for Charlotte and for you, you know?

29:55 Yes.

29:56 She gets the guy that she thinks fits all the, categories. And it's a flop, you know, and, and not only is.

30:02 It a flop, she tries everything. Like she tries and she tries and she tries. But the thing that struck.

30:07 Me watching that I hadn't really been objective about. So Kyle has his.

30:13 Way and it's different in different roles.

30:15 Right.

30:15 But like, he keeps everything very close to the chest and you're not really sure what's going on. And that really worked for.

30:21 Trey because also Charlotte's like, What is the problem here? What is the problem? Like, because it doesn't totally make sense, right? Everything looks perfect, but yet it's not perfect. And she's like, can we go to therapy?

30:33 Can we do this?

30:33 And he won't do anything, obviously, because it doesn't seem like he really wants to work on it, right? Then he's like, I just want to play golf. That works so well because Kyle keeps, sorry, microphone, keeps the cover on. You know what I'm saying? You can't read that guy, you know?

30:48 Right.

30:48 You're the total opposite when you come. Like, yes, you're doing all these things and they've got you in a slightly wider tie and all the signs are there that you're different. But also it's your energy, your energy and your connection to me. And they push in on you so much in the beginning. And it's so good because you're just so present. And you don't feel like, oh, there's all these layers of this guy that we can't see.

31:13 You just feel like, did you see the scene?

31:15 Did you rewatch the scene where like Anthony has told me that I should just have casual sex with you?

31:21 I didn't rewatch it, but I remember it. Well, yes, ugly sex. It's fucking hysterical. Yes.

31:25 And so I'm in bed and I'm like, get out. I just think you should get out. And you're like, okay. You're just so adorably funny.

31:33 I'm like, wow, this is, didn't see this coming.

31:35 Like you can see on your face, right? Like this is odd.

31:38 And I obviously don't know what I'm doing. So I'm just trying to do what Anthony told me to do.

31:41 Right.

31:42 But you roll with it. You know, you roll with it. And then the whole back hair thing. That's what I do remember. I remember thinking to myself, why are they torturing Evan like this?

31:54 I still get asked, is that your real hair?

31:56 Oh my God. No one has hair like that.

31:59 Good God. It's a three-piece back wig.

32:01 I mean, they did too much, okay?

32:04 Too much. It was a little wolf man.

32:07 It was insane. Like it needed to be trimmed three times.

32:11 Now, you know, I will say from a personal standpoint, if anybody's interested in my personal standpoint.

32:17 We are.

32:17 That's what we're interested in.

32:20 You know- I was well into a career. I knew I wasn't doing, you know, I wasn't doing the Rob Lowe roles, you know, certainly. I wasn't doing the Christian Slater roles, you know. But I had a history of relationships with beautiful women. And then I get the role that I think Harry was described as something overbearing and unattractive. And, you know, it's all the back hair and he's ugly and ugly sex and stuff. And I don't think there's any other time other than in my mind that I'll be compared to Minnie Driver. But, you know, there's a lot of literature written about women, beautiful women, beautiful model-like women who spent some of their careers or all their careers playing the less attractive friend. and Minnie driver made

33:13 her a big splash in a movie where she was supposed to be the one who wasn't quite beautiful enough.

33:18 Overlooked and whatnot.

33:20 Totally.

33:21 And here I'm now, now I'm doing that. Basically. I'm the guy who is supposed to be not handsome enough.

33:28 And being, what did you think of that?

33:31 Well, I thought, you know, I thought what I just said, you know, I had a lot of beautiful girlfriends and I do okay for myself.

33:38 Definitely.

33:39 Uh, uh, but it's just, it's just what the role was. And, and, and, and I, and you, and I, and I understand that, you know, when you're working in the realm of film and television, you're in a different fantasy realm. I mean, people, my wife, my wife likes to watch romantic comedies and she, this says the ingredient for a romantic comedy is you need two really good looking people because you want to stare at them on the screen and you want to fantasize about them. And, and, you know, if I don't reach those heights, that's okay. I've done fine for myself. Absolutely.

34:11 But then when, you know, it's still, there's some ego thing involved in it. Of course. You're human. I mean, Harry triumphs.

34:21 Yes, absolutely.

34:23 But there was an element of that. You go through that and you see that you're represented that way and that's, I mean, that's the bill that you fit. I mean, as carefully as people cast, people are also really casting people especially in film and television for instantaneous identification. Yeah. You know, um, and, and it's why, you know, ethnicities come into play really quickly types and ethnicities and, and, um, uh, uh, you know, I'm not going to get cast as the, uh, uh, uh, Aryan white supremacist. Well, thank God I'm going to get cast as the Jewish guy more often than that.

35:03 Right.

35:04 Um, they don't always go as far as what some jobs have done. I mean, sometimes I read for a job and like, it's, you know, the name is Jim and then suddenly it becomes Simon or, or, or Jacob or something like that. Oh my God. Uh, uh, but, but, uh, uh, it is what it is. You know, you, you, you, you, you, your, your, your, your, your physicality and your instant recognizability is, is, is part of the currency.

35:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:34 In the world that we live in. For sure, for sure, for sure. And mine was kind of emphasized in a way by the fact that at a very young age, I lost my hair from that same illness. Yeah. And for a while, you know, I used to go to auditions with wigs.

35:48 Wow.

35:49 Because I had just reappeared. Nobody knew, you know, that I had changed that much.

35:53 They didn't know what had happened?

35:54 And I was still reading for, they knew what had happened, but I was still reading for college kids. Oh, wow. Nobody was bald in 1982. Michael Jordan wasn't bald in 1986. The people who were bald in 1986 were the people on St. Mark's Place where I lived who were like skinheads. So if I didn't want to play skinhead roles, I wore week's auditions to play like normal guys.

36:19 Wow.

36:19 And it took years to kind of shed that. And now it's harder to introduce. It's hard to say, hey, I could be different than what you see because it's also an identifiable label for me now. Yes, of course.

36:31 Yes, of course.

36:43 Can I go back to something you said a second ago, which I think is really interesting, and I think it might be a clue to what I think when I look at the early episodes when you show up. You said something like Harry triumphs, right? Now, you didn't necessarily know intellectually that. That Harry was going to triumph when you came.

37:01 No, I mean, Michael shared with me at some point that we would like to take this through to a marriage. Got it. The whole, we need you to last. Right.

37:09 Got it, got it, got it.

37:10 Because when it became clear.

37:11 Right.

37:12 Because I think I knew the dream, you know, because- it made so much sense.

37:16 And he, Michael was hinted at. It wasn't hinted at.

37:19 Got it.

37:20 Got it.

37:20 Got it.

37:20 Got it. Yeah.

37:20 Because I think he, you know, Michael also goes on the vibes of the people, right? So like with, with Kyle, he was supposed to be four or five also in the beginning. And then we just went with it, obviously. But then with you, I thought you were the antidote, you know, to the Trey relationship.

37:38 But I take it as great, you know, in terms of Michael's faith and everything, not only Harry triumphs, but, you know, in terms of the whole history of the franchise, you know, last man standing.

37:48 That's right, baby. That's right. Incredible. Incredible.

37:54 And also in my mind, you know, Michael's boyfriend, partner, Craig, like in my mind, you are based on Craig.

38:02 Harry is based on Craig.

38:04 And I only say that it took me a while to figure that out, but it, coincides timely wise in terms of when Craig showed up and Craig is also bald and is also just like the best person ever.

38:16 Like he is beloved.

38:17 You haven't seen Craig in a long time. I have, we have. met and spent some time together a long time ago.

38:21 He's so great. He's so great.

38:24 And I, in my mind, that's partly why I had faith also that it would all work out.

38:30 Do you know what I mean?

38:30 Because I knew Michael and Craig were wonderful and things were working out. And I was like, don't mess up Michael because we need to, you.

38:37 Know, whatever.

38:37 But I mean, I I'm reading into that. I hope Michael doesn't be, I don't think there's anything to be upset about obviously. But I, I didn't know. You know, he would take it season by season in terms of talking about the big brushstrokes, right? And just kind of running them by us. And what he told me on the podcast, actually, was that he would look at our faces while he was pitching to see the true... you know, feeling not just like what we said.

39:05 Yeah.

39:05 Which is also interesting. Cause I thought he was telling me what he'd already decided. I didn't realize there was still some litmus test going on or whatever, but he's so, you know, he functions on so many levels.

39:16 Right.

39:16 But, um, when we, like, I didn't know the, you know, I mean, also we never knew like, like for instance, when the show ended, we didn't know for sure that we were going to get to make a film.

39:26 Right.

39:26 Did you and I talk about this?

39:28 I doubt it. Really? I didn't know there was going to be a film.

39:31 You didn't have any idea? Wow.

39:35 I didn't know there'd be a second film. I heard about the third film. When that went away, I thought that was it forever.

39:42 I mean, yeah. They kept telling me that it was it forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank goodness it wasn't. Thank goodness it wasn't for us, I think. Don't you?

39:51 That what?

39:52 That we got to do it just like that.

39:53 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm very grateful for that. Me too.

39:56 Me too. I think also just for the... It was just different, different. You know what I mean?

40:02 Like, it's hard for me to remember. I don't separate them, obviously, right? Like, it's all Charlotte.

40:08 You know what I mean?

40:08 But I love her and your, our development over time.

40:13 Do you?

40:14 Yeah. I think it was a really... unusual thing to see. I mean, there's been a ton written and said about it, right? And you can go in all different directions with it. But it's just really unusual to take the same group of actors so many years later, put them in the same roles, but in a different show. Right. Different format.

40:41 Unheard of.

40:41 Different length.

40:42 Yes. Different tone. Different kind of genre in a way. And even for me as a viewer, sometimes it was unsettling. It's like, oh, you know, you're just not used to being asked or invited to do that.

41:00 Well, it never happens. And we're just so lucky that it did.

41:03 Even looking at yourself, it's strange. Exactly.

41:05 Exactly.

41:06 I mean, it is strange. It is strange. I'm not like I used to be.

41:10 Totally.

41:11 And also, I think it's also hard. And I think I might have said this on the podcast. It's hard because the way that HBO Max works, they would like if you watched an episode of it just like that, the next thing that showed up was the original Sex and the City.

41:25 So you watch this.

41:26 30 years later, and then our little young faces, it's like, huh?

41:31 Like, is this a Black Mirror episode? I don't know what's happening. Like, it's a lot.

41:35 We asked a lot of people, and obviously we know there's a whole variety of reactions to it. But let's go back into the past for a second.

41:42 So you come.

41:44 I don't remember all this that you're telling me, right? I just remember that you seemed... like confident in a way that I appreciated because also it was the character, right? Like the character was different and confident and was not trying to fit into a mold of like boyfriend, the shiny boyfriend, whatever.

42:03 You know what I mean? I just thought you were.

42:07 you had the things that were needed for that role. And I didn't have to worry about you and you could, I could just play off you, you know, like you gave me a lot to play off.

42:15 And I was like, Oh, thank God, this is awesome. And so different.

42:19 Right.

42:20 And sometimes like there's the.

42:21 Scene in the episode that we're going to watch in a second, talk, rewatch, pick a little, talk a little. where, you know, I do the whole Shabbat and, you know, it's really hard. And also I had to learn that.

42:31 I remember you practicing. Yes, yes, yes.

42:33 Oh God, it was so hard. It was so hard.

42:35 And I was so worried I'd do it badly, you know, as is Charlotte, where she'd do it badly. And then you want to watch the Mets.

42:40 And then I get very upset and I say so many mean things to you.

42:44 Yeah, yeah.

42:45 And I looked at that show and I was like, I should not have said those things.

42:50 Charlotte should not have said those things.

42:52 Harry was rude as well. I mean, Harry was not, being uh it's true sensitive or respectful it doesn't doesn't mean you say what charlotte.

42:58 Said totally i didn't think it was an appropriate response do you know what i mean i i get that i could have said more like do you know how hard i worked at this of course that was fine yeah i didn't think i needed to keep going right and i was like i'm lucky that i ever got him back because i would never say that to anyone never.

43:18 Yeah But, you know, they gave Harry a lot of dignity. Definitely. He said, I'm out of here. Forget it.

43:24 Which was good.

43:25 Yeah.

43:25 Do you remember that? And thinking like, did you think that it was done?

43:29 Had they let you know that you were coming back? Like, how did that go down?

43:33 It's an interesting question.

43:36 Yeah.

43:39 I don't know the answer to that. I assumed he was coming back, but I didn't.

43:42 I think what happened and I'd have to analyze.

43:44 I just didn't know how long the split would last.

43:47 And it wasn't that long. Right. And you know how we would do two at a time.

43:50 Right.

43:51 So I think that when I do see you at the mixer.

43:53 Yeah. I didn't think that was a question in my memory.

43:56 Got it. I don't remember that either, but obviously I don't know what you were going through. Right.

44:00 Most of my memories are just, you know, feeling inadequate on the day. watching the episode and thinking I didn't really pull it off so well. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I would, sometimes I thought, great, great moment.

44:13 I like that.

44:14 Okay.

44:15 So when you, you would go, would you watch HBO or would they, would they send you the VCR that we.

44:21 Used to get? I asked about watching dailies early on and was told not.

44:24 Right.

44:25 Cynthia was the only one that got to watch dailies.

44:27 So, and I, I had come to the place where I like to do that because I get, I get confirmation from it. It's like, okay, good. And then I don't really necessarily need to keep doing it. Right. But until then, you know, especially you're new on a show. Yeah. It's a new character. Yeah. Any TV show, you don't know what's coming next. Yeah. You find out you're a lesbian six weeks in, you know. Yes. You don't know anything.

44:50 Yes.

44:51 And everything changes. So it's good to see, is it, am I buying it? Yeah. Am I filling it as much as I want to fill it? Because sometimes- I can watch stuff and go, oh, I thought I really filled that moment. Right. And it's fine, but it really could be. Could have been better.

45:06 I feel that way as well, yes.

45:08 So that's what I felt with that Shabbat scene. It was fine. It was natural. It's believable. But I might have given it a little more oomph or something. Which maybe is exactly what Michael wants to avoid by somebody trying to soup up what they're looking at.

45:25 No, he loves to have high stakes generally.

45:28 Exactly.

45:29 Yeah.

45:30 It helps me to get confirmation. Of course. But it's the projects. It's a really weird thing to me, but the projects and people that are open to that for actors are narrow.

45:43 Very narrow now, especially.

45:44 And I think it's so funny because every tennis player, every baseball player, every basketball player is going to be considered negligent if they're not watching film with themselves. And nobody's like, no, I can't watch film myself. I'm too self-conscious when I go to bat. No, you watch.

46:00 So true. It's so true. You know what I think it's about? And I don't know for sure for men. Right. But I mean, it could it could be just across the boards.

46:07 I think that they think that we're going to watch and we're going to think that you didn't like me correctly and they don't want to hear it.

46:13 Yeah.

46:15 Like really like basic things like that.

46:18 You know what I mean?

46:19 Whereas like I do think about Cynthia, Cynthia really, really watched Daily's.

46:24 I mean, for a long time, like longer than I could even get my mind around.

46:28 And sometimes she'd try to put them on a hair and makeup and I'll be like, no!

46:32 No, I wouldn't want to have them foisted on me. It would have to be, you know, on my own, by myself. Right.

46:39 But she's just a machine, you know, and in her mind, she was trying to learn about... on film, she always felt like, oh, no, my medium is theater. This is not my medium. I don't really understand it.

46:51 Right.

46:51 So it was like a class for her, you know, which I really respect. I am too riddled with insecurities, though the rewatching has helped. But that's because I have so much distance. There is, there's nothing I can fix now.

47:03 Right. You know, so I can just be pretty relaxed.

47:06 And there's sometimes I said to Michael one time, like, oh, I was watching the scene and I thought to myself, like, what is my choice?

47:11 Did I make a choice? Like, you know, you, you'd be like, what, what, what was going into that decision or was there even a decision?

47:18 Right.

47:18 And he said, I know what you're doing. And also sometimes you, especially because our writers were so present, you were told a lot of things that they wanted you to do. Some of which made sense. Some of which were not that acceptable they were ideas because writers work in ideas which I totally understand and that's why the writing was so great like there's so many ideas in there but you have to act actions you can't act ideas you know so like I remember in one particular time and I still will feel this way forever no matter what anyone says when I proposed to myself with Kyle with Trey and then I have to go to Sarah Jessica's to Carrie's and say like I'm engaged, but I'm in shock. All they said to me the whole

48:01 time was you're in shock.

48:02 You're in shock. You're in shock.

48:03 That's impossible to act for an entire scene, but I'm doing my best, but it's not great. Do you mean it's not because they're just like so narrow in their idea of like, okay, Charlotte's in shock the whole time.

48:15 You can't play a whole scene in shock. Like really?

48:19 I also heard an interview with Jerry Zaks who directed many Broadway productions as well as 60 years of separation. And I think he was talking about working on Sister Act. She may have done a musical on Broadway.

48:31 Yeah, yeah.

48:33 But he talked about, you know, there's the fat character who's always eating. And there's the stupid character that always says stupid things. And he said, forgetting, of course, that that's not what makes a stupid person or a stupid character. The stupid character is trying their best to say something smart.

48:50 Every second of every day and failing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what you want to see is the attempt to be smart and the failure. Yeah, yeah. And so that's the same thing. I would think that the person who's in shock is trying their best to be aware of their surroundings. Absolutely. But failing at it.

49:03 Absolutely. Right, like there has to be some- The.

49:06 Same with the pizza scene. It wouldn't, if somebody had said to me, eat a lot more- You could have done that. Well, but in my mind, to make it active and good and actable, I would say, you know, this slice of pizza is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life i love this slice of pizza more than i love this woman right in this moment.

49:25 Oh that would have been interesting yeah yeah yeah make.

49:28 Love to the pizza right but then when you go to kiss her she's offended not only by the grossness, but by the rejection.

49:35 That's interesting. That's very interesting. The funny thing is, I love that scene. I just watched that scene the other day, and I.

49:41 Love that scene.

49:41 It's sweet.

49:42 It's sweet. It's not what they wanted.

49:43 And not what they wanted, but it's also funny because I'm just like, I'm very, like, you see Charlotte differently. because you're sweet, but you're also like unpredictable, you know, and she's just like trying to figure you out.

49:55 And then she's like, it's your hair, you know, it's a hair back hair and you've got to wax it. Like, I was like, what is going on with me right there? I don't even know.

50:02 Right.

50:02 But this is what was great is that it brought out an unusual, I thought it was great.

50:07 It's so funny.

50:08 Several of these episodes were directed by Michael Engler. Yep. Who, who has gone on to become a tremendously successful television director on many projects and, But I hadn't seen him since I had quit the play, I Hate Hamlet, that he directed.

50:23 I don't remember this.

50:26 In which Nicol Williamson, a legendary Scottish actor, who hit me on stage. This event? Oh, my God. That I quit in the performance.

50:33 Oh, my God.

50:34 Wait.

50:34 Michael Engler directed that?

50:36 Michael Engler directed I Hate Hamlet. And I was 29 or 30 years old, which is fairly young. And Michael was even younger. He was a fairly new director. dealing with this guy who quit three times during a four-week rehearsal period was significantly intoxicated a lot of the time and certainly carried the threat of violence all the time until he finally hauled off and hit me on stage in front of 500 people.

51:02 Terrifying.

51:04 And, you know, I just, I left mid-performance.

51:09 Which is also insane.

51:10 It is insane. But, you know, the choices were.

51:14 Get back out there with him.

51:15 Accept the blow and continue performing as if nothing had happened. Turn around and hit him back and have a brawl or just leave.

51:22 Right.

51:22 And it was an instantaneous decision and I chose number three.

51:26 Right.

51:27 And didn't go back, you know, but it, but it, it, there was 48 hours of silence and then it became a huge story that went on and on and on and on and on. And the phone rang with Michael calling and all kinds of people calling Paul Rudnick. I didn't return any of those calls. I was extremely raw and humiliated and everything oh uh so so we were also kind of feeling each other out for what's what's the lay of the land here yeah he also directed the episode i think where we see each other.

51:59 At yeah the mixer yeah yeah he did So wait, I just want to go. Oh, I'm so, so confused about.

52:17 Okay.

52:17 So this is interesting.

52:18 I have to like, like process what you're telling me about the beginning of it and that you were only four and that we went home for the pregnancy and we didn't.

52:27 Know when we were coming back.

52:28 And then you came back and did they ever say like, now you're here for the whole season?

52:33 Great.

52:33 Okay, great.

52:34 Picked up for a season.

52:35 Got it, got it. But you weren't in every episode.

52:37 Probably like seven out of 13. I don't know what it was.

52:40 Got it, got it.

52:41 No, I think when we do come back, we film for like a whole calendar year because that's how come they got enough that they could divide into the bonus season or whatever weird thing they called it, right? Because we had gotten this break for the babies because both Cynthia and.

52:56 Sarah had had a baby, which was great, personally. But we were just like on hold or whatever. You don't really.

53:03 That wasn't, you don't remember that as being like weird?

53:06 Oh, going on for so long?

53:08 Yeah.

53:09 Honestly, I just don't remember.

53:11 You were just rolling with it.

53:12 I mean, I had moved to Santa Monica, like I said. Then when they did pick me up for the full season, I moved everything back to New York. Oh, wow. There was a young guy who was an exec at HBO who rented my Santa Monica, New York apartment. Santa Monica apartment. Greg, somebody. Oh, yeah, Greg, sure. Yeah, yeah.

53:31 That's so funny.

53:32 He also stayed at my house at one point.

53:34 So, so, so in the meantime, I had found Elisa and we got married right around the same time we got married on the show. It was a year that we were together.

53:44 Okay.

53:44 Okay.

53:45 Okay.

53:45 It all blurs.

53:46 Um, so, so I had a lot going on too. Yeah.

53:49 Got it.

53:49 Got it. Got it. I was happy to have the show. It was by then it was airing and I was, you know, and, and, um, Elisa and I did a photo shoot for Oprah magazine, you know, in the restaurant where we got married.

54:01 Oh, that's so sweet.

54:02 And so my chemist wife is having this experience, you know, I mean, my, my gorgeous chemist wife. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't say that to flatter myself. No, no, she is. That's why Oprah wanted her in the magazine. Of course. So I was enjoying that time. I felt, you know, somewhat more, Like settled.

54:25 And like, I'm part of this.

54:26 Yeah.

54:27 Good, good, good.

54:27 I mean, I think it really took until and just like that, though, that I felt like a comfortable actor.

54:33 No way.

54:33 In the Sex and the City world. You're kidding me. Because I didn't have much to do in those films. You know, that's true because- Like scattered days here and there. You know what we had?

54:44 We had that weird Halloween thing.

54:46 I think it got cut. Yeah, it was Uncle Fester.

54:48 But it lives online.

54:49 So I'm like, where did it get put in the extras of the DVDs or whatever?

54:55 Like what on earth? You're so funny though.

54:57 Yeah, I've never seen that stuff. I've seen a couple of still photos.

55:00 It's hysterical and weird.

55:02 There's a light bulb I keep putting around the lights.

55:04 Yes, it's really funny because you're someone from the Munsters or whatever.

55:07 No, Uncle Fester.

55:08 Uncle Fester, thank you.

55:09 I should have been able to find that name quicker. It's really funny because we, hold on. See, I have to rewatch the films too. The second film we go on our trip, obviously. So we only see at the beginning.

55:22 And the end.

55:23 I had something to do in Big's Apology. Maybe that was film number one, was it? Yes. I carry a message to SJ.

55:33 You do?

55:34 In the hospital after you've had a baby. Oh, yes.

55:37 I vaguely remember this.

55:38 That was pretty much the only real scene that I had. Got it.

55:41 Well, I think you're part of the wedding, so we all stood around a lot in those outfits.

55:45 Yeah. A lot. A lot.

55:47 So there were several years there that it took to get back to doing some real scenes.

55:52 With- Yes, yes, yes. Oh, Stanford and Anthony get married. And so we're in those nice outfits for a while with the swans and Liza Minnelli.

56:03 That was lengthy.

56:04 And our little daughter, our one little daughter that we have at that point, that was a long time.

56:09 I remember that.

56:10 That was very long with not a lot to do. We were glorified extras for sure in that. I mean, the thing that I think is also so interesting, and I know that there's different guys that have come and gone or whatever, like Eigenberg has stayed also wonderfully through the years. How weird, because even like you compared it to Californication. Californication, you guys are, you and David, you're the leads.

56:38 It didn't start out that way. It didn't? No, it became more of the Evan and David show along the way.

56:43 Got it. But the women weren't the leads. Or Natasha was kind of the lead, Natasha Macalone?

56:49 Well, it was a love story with Natasha and David.

56:51 Got it.

56:52 You know, it kind of started as Marcy and I, more peripheral characters. The buddy aspect became stronger and stronger. And I think, I'm not going to say it was difficult for Pamela because I don't speak for Pamela, but Pamela was a huge component of the show.

57:09 Pamela Adlon, if anyone doesn't know.

57:11 Love her. Yes, who then went on to do her amazing show of her own. but she was not the buddy of the lead character.

57:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:19 And it became this male buddy show. Right. More and more for the middle seasons. Right.

57:25 Well, what I was going to ask was, you know, something that I think is interesting about our show in general, but especially in the beginning is, it's, we really flip the whole norm of like the guys being the leads and then the girlfriend parts. And you guys are kind of the girlfriend parts, which is challenging and, and not what people are used to or whatever.

57:45 Well, I mean, I had to consciously tell myself, you know, um, anything I'm given to do on those shows, those films, those shows, it's in service of Charlotte. It's in service of Charlotte's character. That's all. I mean, Harry exists in service of Charlotte. Harry exists. It was created in service of Charlotte, as was Trey. Yeah. You know, to show whatever she's going through. And that's just the.

58:09 Was it helpful to just remember that so that you didn't get frustrated?

58:12 Yeah.

58:13 That's good. That's good. Because I can understand.

58:15 I mean, as previous to Sex and the City, obviously just played the girlfriends.

58:20 You know what I mean?

58:20 And when you play the girlfriends, you know you're the girlfriend and you're not going to have a beginning, middle, and an end to your storyline.

58:26 Right. You're just going to be there for... whatever it is that they need or whatever.

58:31 Even when Michael called me, because nobody ever ran storylines past me, except before the last season of And Just Like That, he called to talk to me about the prostate cancer diagnosis and share that with me. And even that I realized quickly was going to be, it's still in service of Charlotte. because it's all about that break.

58:58 It's about him saying, keep this a secret, and what that is to put on a spouse, and what it is for Charlotte to carry. It wasn't an investigation of what prostate cancer is. I mean, Michael said to me, I want to do this because so many people men I know and so many men are going through this. But in terms of the show, it was really about what it meant to the main character, Charlotte, and what his request, demand put on her, which is as it should be. That's what the show is.

59:26 That's true. That's true.

59:27 I mean.

59:28 I do think it's interesting to think about, though.

59:29 And I think also one thing that I, you know, because I don't have enough distance for In Just Like That to rewatch it yet or to really be definitive, because as you said, it's a challenging show to watch and be on in some ways. I also think that at that point in time, I think Michael wanted to include things that we at this point in our lives are going through without it being.

59:57 About that, right?

59:58 Because like, we'd already killed big, everyone was mad about that, whatever, you know what I'm saying? Like, we had this fantasy that we were going to be like, super honest on and just like that, right? About middle age, life, whatever it is you want to call it. But then it's hard for people to watch us, right? And it might have been better. And not that I really mean this, but like, just theorizing. if we'd just done a new show with new characters, not that we could.

1:00:25 But you know what I mean?

1:00:26 Maybe people could have accepted it more rather than like, oh, those characters that I know and love from when they were younger. Now we have to watch them die and get cancer and whatever the heck.

1:00:36 I'm trying to say, right? Like we just put people through a lot is what I'm saying.

1:00:41 And I think at some point, Michael somewhat realized that. So I also think that's partly why, like, cause you know, there were some funny, funny moments in that prostate cancer storyline for you. Which is also, I mean, you can find funny in these things, right? But it's very complicated, isn't it?

1:00:59 Yeah.

1:01:01 And what I want to say to you, especially now that I'm hearing this stuff that I have to process about when you came on, because I still just feel really bad, but I also like in my gut, I'm like, oh yeah, I do remember that time. Like that vibe on the set, things were weird and like a little controlling because of this, like, outside world that you.

1:01:23 Couldn't... I don't remain deeply traumatized by it.

1:01:25 I'm glad of it. Thank God.

1:01:27 We got past it.

1:01:28 No, thank God. Thank God.

1:01:29 But it was interesting. It was interesting at the time.

1:01:31 It's very interesting.

1:01:32 I just wish I had known better. I don't know exactly what I would have done, but I would have tried to make it better. I don't know if I could have.

1:01:38 You know what I mean?

1:01:38 Right. Yeah. But there's no way. There's no way because we, you know, it's interesting and also we're both raising kids, you know, and it's hard to It's hard in your own life to learn and it's hard to teach people and it's hard to trust that, you know, you can't really have middles and endings without a beginning. Like you have to, you know, and when you just arrive someplace, there is no trust built between anybody. Nobody knows each other.

1:02:08 They don't know you yet.

1:02:09 They might know each other. And you just, you have to go through that period.

1:02:13 That's true.

1:02:13 And you can't get to the next period without it. No, that's true. That's true.

1:02:17 But I'm just so glad that you didn't really let it bother you too much. You didn't crumble at all. I mean, I had no idea. I had no idea. And I just think like when you look at your work, like, yes, you might think like, oh, in that moment, I could have done this or that. But in general, can you see what a.

1:02:35 You know, a lot of it I'm happy with. But the. But I'm more happy with the stuff that really terrified me. I mean, we were already, I think, into the next season when I got the script that just says Harry naked, Harry naked on the couch, Harry naked in the kitchen, Harry naked here, Harry naked there, Harry naked singing. from, what is the song?

1:02:56 Oh my God, what is the song? I can't remember.

1:03:00 Mack the Knife.

1:03:01 Yeah, yeah, oh my God.

1:03:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay.

1:03:04 That was funny.

1:03:04 Two things I'd rather not be asked to do on camera. Be naked and sing. Totally. But, you know, I watched that episode and I think I did a great job.

1:03:13 You did fantastic.

1:03:14 And I was not at all comfortable.

1:03:15 That's amazing. I didn't know that you weren't comfortable.

1:03:18 And I didn't know anything of that world. I didn't know people were going to arrive with a tray of options of, you know- uh garments to.

1:03:24 Wear to cover yes you know yes.

1:03:27 Privacy patches and pouches and things like that yes and it was it was just all improvised learning and uh uh yeah which became you know my everyday existence some.

1:03:38 Years later absolutely well it's good prep for you good prep for you for that very strange show that you left it's very rare that any of us went on to a even stranger show than our show.

1:03:49 You know what I mean?

1:03:50 So I'm glad it worked out for you. We prepped you well for that. You guys, this is so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. So join us later in the week on R U S Charlotte.