When Love Turns Toxic: Carrie, Berger & Cults with Bethany Joy Lenz... (S6 E5 "Lights, Camera, Relationship)

0:01 Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Are You a Charlotte?

0:10 Today, fun guest, Bethany Joy Lenz from One Tree Hill and the wonderful podcast, Drama Queens.

0:18 And she's going to rewatch with me.

0:20 We are now at episode 605, Lights, Camera, Relationship, which first aired July 20th 2003, directed by Michael Engler, written.

0:31 By Michael Patrick King.

0:33 This is a super fascinating conversation where we're going to talk about cults, you guys.

0:38 I have to confess, I have never seen One Tree Hill.

0:41 You know what? It's never too late to start.

0:44 Well, you have a 15-year-old daughter.

0:46 I'm sure she's going to start watching soon.

0:48 Oh, would she? Is this?

0:49 Yes. I mean, my daughter just started watching it, which is so weird to walk in her bedroom and she's like sitting there watching Young Me on the screen and she looks up at me.

0:56 She's like, Mom, I love your Oh my gosh, adorable.

0:59 But yeah, if yours is watching any of the old Dawson's Creek or is she like, she's not doing any of that right now?

1:06 She likes, what's that one that's about to come back on Netflix? I can't remember.

1:11 Off Campus? No.

1:12 Oh. You're talking about the older shows. That's on HBO, first of all, isn't it?

1:16 No, no, no. That's the hockey one that you're thinking of.

1:18 Oh, that's on Prime.

1:19 No, no, no, no.

1:21 There's sex in that Off Campus. In Off Campus? There is? Because Hannah told me to watch it.

1:24 Yeah.

1:25 Yeah. A lot of boobs. Are you serious? Right off the bat, yeah. Excuse me.

1:29 I did not know my daughter was watching that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's in the other room. I'm going to make her come in.

1:33 No, it's like very sexually active college kids. And a lot of slow-mo of men with shirts off that have been misted and oiled.

1:44 You know what I'm saying? I mean, what else would they be? Right.

1:47 I mean, it's fully, like, you know. Okay, we'll have a conversation in the car.

1:52 Yeah, no, no.

1:53 It was a definite no for my daughter. No, she didn't even want to. She didn't know what it is.

1:57 She's a little behind, which is great, you know? But she likes— I can't remember what the heck the show's called. People die. She's very upset because her favorite character died, but then he's coming back. I don't even understand. Teen Wolf?

2:10 No, no, no.

2:11 It's going to come to me.

2:12 Okay, all right.

2:12 It's going to come to me. But no, I haven't let her watch Sex and the City yet. I mean, kind of obviously.

2:17 And I don't know with One Tree Hill because I haven't seen it, but this is what's weird about it. So when Amy Sugarman asked me to do this podcast— What she held out as a good example of what to be was your podcast, Drama Queens.

2:35 Oh, that's so nice. So I listened to Drama.

2:37 Queens without having watched One Tree Hill, so I was like, I don't know what they're talking about.

2:41 Right.

2:41 But they're super interesting, and I really like them, and you were so in charge.

2:47 I'm, thank you. And also I'm just so, I so relate to that feeling of not knowing when somebody says do a podcast, there's an intimidation factor to that of like, well, I don't, I'm not really sure what to do or what to say. Like I'm happy to talk to people I know and just have conversations, but having everybody out in the world hear it. I don't invite everyone into my living room. Right.

3:09 It's a leap. It's a leap. Yeah, it's a big leap.

3:11 And the pressure of feeling like it has to be done right or I have to say interesting things. But I found that it was actually so much easier. But I wasn't doing it alone. I mean, I had my two girlfriends to do that with. So this is really impressive that you're– You took that and kind of spun it into your own thing here. Thank you.

3:28 Thank you. I don't know. It seems like it's going pretty well.

3:33 Yeah. I mean, I enjoy it, but I'm a perfectionist and sometimes I'm, you know, I struggle because I think there's a weird thing about.

3:43 you know, what we normally.

3:44 Do, meaning acting on a show, which is, you know, hugely collaborative. There's so many people involved. And obviously you're trying to be the absolute best in your role, right? But also you're hoping that everything comes together. And I'm used to in the Sex and the City and just like that world, all of us are perfectionists, right? So I'm, you know, you can relax because, you know, everyone is going to be super nitpicky.

4:07 About every detail, right?

4:09 So, like, for this, I feel like I want everything to be, like, so good.

4:15 Now, what does so good mean? Not sure, right? That's the amorphous part of a podcast. It could be anything, basically.

4:21 And so many people do it excellently in so many different ways.

4:25 Definitely, definitely. Well, I thought that Drama Queens was an excellent rewatch.

4:29 Thank you.

4:29 You're welcome.

4:30 I'm so glad.

4:30 And I loved how I was like, oh, so one of them has the notes. That would be you, Joye. And then you just keep everyone on track, which was so great. The hard thing is that I have to be that person but also be talking.

4:41 Yes. Hard.

4:42 That is hard.

4:43 Hard, man. And by the way, to give credit to the other girls on that, we often rotated with that. Like there were days when– maybe the few that you listen to, I happen to just be like on it. You seem very much. Yeah. But we– That's kind of the great thing about having a few different people is that you can rotate and somebody would check in and I'd be like, guys, I didn't sleep last night and I barely watched the episode. I need help. Somebody fill me in.

5:05 Got it, got it, got it.

5:05 Yeah.

5:06 That's nice.

5:06 So that would happen a lot, but we carry each other's load. It's just me.

5:08 It's just me. But that's okay.

5:10 Everyone who listens seems very patient. I haven't looked at the reviews lately. So as far as I know, everybody's very patient and supportive.

5:19 Which is great. But do you miss it doing Drama Queens?

5:21 I actually do.

5:22 Yeah.

5:23 And I was thinking about doing another podcast, but I also, again, it's like. If it's just going to be me, I think about my bandwidth. And as we just were talking about earlier, I'm homeschooling my daughter. I'm on a series. I'm writing a book. And I'm just trying to have a life with my dogs and relax.

5:38 Yeah, that's a lot. So it feels... I look at.

5:40 My bandwidth and I have to be... As much as I would love to say yes to everything, I have to be a little more judicial. But I think there's a... time when I'll probably do this again.

5:48 Well, that's nice.

5:49 I did really enjoy it.

5:50 I did think you were so good at it.

5:51 Thanks. Yeah, yeah.

5:52 I thought you were really good at it.

5:53 But let's just talk about the book for a second because it's so crazy to me. So you wrote a nonfiction book about your life and now you have a fiction book.

6:03 Like this is so rare.

6:04 Yes. Okay.

6:05 How did this happen?

6:08 Well, I've always written. I've been a writer since I was very young and I would write screenplays and books and musicals. And actually, I never finished a book. I would start things and then put them away. But it was always just sort of my own little hobby that I nurtured. And so when the memoir opportunity came up, I was prepared, which I just wasn't expecting. And I always thought I would write a book one day. I'd walk through bookstores and be like, I want to be on these shelves. But again, bandwidth and opportunity and time.

6:39 And so... I wrote the memoir and really loved the experience and thought if this can twist me into what I really want to do, which is fiction, I want to go for it. I want to try it. So I took an amalgam of experiences from my own life and friends' lives and just some things that I've invented and was able to put everything together into this story. Wow.

7:05 And it was great. It was like, healing in some ways for me to process some stuff. And it was also really fun to write about the Victorian era and do it. I love research. I could just live in, just be a professional researcher because I just love it so much. Nice.

7:21 Yeah.

7:22 So that's kind of how it happened. I just pitched some books and my publisher was like, yeah, let's do it. Wow. So when you wrote.

7:29 Your first book, your memoir, did you, how did the idea of writing a memoir come mesh with the actual reality of exposing so much about your life?

7:41 I think at that point, I mean, look, I was in a cult for 10 years. Like the first thing about leaving that environment is walking around, like trying to lose the embarrassment of saying that out loud, because it feels really embarrassing. And then as time goes by, it became like, you know, the card trick I had in my back pocket. The dinner table's quiet for long enough.

8:04 It's like, well, I was in a cult for 10 years. I didn't want to talk about that. And then I just got more and more comfortable with it that I think by the time I was writing the memoir, it was 10 years past when I had left.

8:14 Oh, got it.

8:15 And had done so much work and therapy and just processing and forgiveness and forgiving myself and others. And there was so much work I had done that it felt more like an opportunity to share just a thing that happened in my life. And there was not really a lot of shame around it. There wasn't really a lot to hide or feel embarrassed about because I just think we all go through weird things, make weird choices, get involved with things that we didn't know what it was.

8:43 Like it just happens. It's life. Right.

8:46 But was the response kind of what you had envisioned it would be? I didn't know what.

8:53 Was going to happen. I had no idea if this thing was just going to like come out in the world and ever be like.

9:00 You never know these days. You never know.

9:03 I had no idea that the response was going to be so... I really hoped that people who had been involved in, whether it was self-help or religious or any kind of abusive environment like that would be able to connect and maybe either they would recognize it if they were starting to get involved and they'd go, oh, and maybe not get involved. Or maybe if they had been and they didn't know what it was, it would give them some language to process it. So I hoped all those things, but I wasn't really sure. So yeah, it's been really cool that I still get messages every day from people, even women who are just in abusive relationships and got out. If it wasn't a cult, it was still, the top notes are all the same in those environments.

9:42 So if our listeners haven't read your book, and I think I listened to you talk about it on a podcast.

9:47 I don't know whose, but I didn't read it. Sorry, because the kids and you know how it is, right?

9:52 I get it. Thank you so much.

9:54 But what I vaguely remember, because yours was interesting because it seemed to be Christianity.

10:02 Yeah. A version of it.

10:04 A version of it.

10:05 Like a bad, real bad offshoot.

10:06 But I mean, some of the good things of Christianity in the beginning, right? It seems innocent enough. Yes. And then it got into a high control situation.

10:14 Yes.

10:15 And so if some of our listeners don't know just the basics about what to look out for, what would you say to somebody? who might be in a relationship or a group that they feel.

10:24 Because I myself, especially in my 20s, I mean, I'm one of those people, if there's a documentary about any kind of a cult, I totally am watching it. Yeah. And I'm just like, oh, God, I'm so thankful. So thankful that that didn't happen to me because it so easily could have.

10:40 You know what I'm saying? Yes.

10:41 And there are some things I look back on that I'm like, oh, that was going in that direction of like the high control situation.

10:48 And I'm so glad I got out.

10:50 Absolutely.

10:51 Absolutely. And I'm very.

10:53 trusting and blah, blah, blah. Less as I grow older, thank the Lord.

10:57 I know. Me too. But that's hard too because you don't want to walk through life being hard and jaded and not trusting.

11:03 I'm not really concerned about that.

11:06 I was for a while. I mean, I still feel like I have so many walls up that I have to, it's a real conscious effort to choose to trust someone because I don't want to be just closed off. I want to trust, but I have a lot of, my spidey sense is very highly, highly tuned at this point.

11:26 I think that's great.

11:27 Yeah.

11:30 But so what would you say to someone?

11:31 Yeah.

11:32 What to look out for.

11:33 And if you read Jennifer Vampires, you'll see that there, there are kind of markers of this along the way. But I'm trying to think to truncate, like, I would say that. It's really important. I tell my daughter this all the time. It's really important to watch what people do and not what they say. Like, don't just listen to what they say. You have to pay attention to what people are doing. And if there are situations where, well, first of all, if it starts to feel like you can't trust anyone outside of this group or this relationship or this family or this work environment, whatever that abuse is, attaching itself to, that's a huge red flag. Like you've got to be able to, even if you're, even, and

12:17 I'm still a Christian, but as someone who has a set of beliefs about the big questions in life, I love talking to people from other faiths and other experiences of life because I can learn things that I never knew. And that has no bearing on my ability to have a connection with God. But when I was in that group, that was a huge no-no. You don't go talk to anybody else that believes different things than you because you might get brainwashed. Oh my gosh.

12:47 Wow.

12:48 Ironically.

12:48 Wow, yeah. Into thinking something different. And So anything that's like infantilizing you, making you feel like you need someone else to be in charge of your decisions, that's a big red flag. That's good. The love bombing thing is also, again, top notes are all the same, whether it's a relationship or a group. If it feels like it's up and down, if you notice this pattern of like, I feel really emotionally high and loved and surrounded and then I'm dropped down and suddenly nobody's talking to me and I feel like the outcast and then, What do I do? What do I do to get love again? And then I'm back in the love. That's, you're in a bad zone.

13:24 That's so good.

13:25 That's so good.

13:26 So you should do a podcast where you talk to different people about these things.

13:30 Maybe I should. That'd be awesome.

13:32 Because I feel like, I feel like sometimes, you know, there's like the pluses and the minus of social media, right? And some of the negatives are that, I mean, obviously people are super negative on social media.

13:42 That's number one. But number two is that sometimes things get distilled down into kind of like group speak, right? Yeah. Without really being delved into.

13:50 And I'm not against it because I feel like there's more awareness than there used to be about things such as what we're talking about. Yeah. But then also we actually need to have conversations about it to kind of, you know, pull out what's underneath these ideas.

14:06 Yeah. And personalize them too. Yeah. Because it isn't just one size fits all. No. Even though with these narcissistic characters– there is a sense of a playbook. There's actually a great.

14:18 Oh my God, I know.

14:18 Have you seen it? No, I haven't seen it yet.

14:20 You have to watch it.

14:21 Tell us about it.

14:21 It's called The Narcissist Playbook.

14:22 I kind of know them. I love them.

14:24 Yeah, Mark Vincente and Bonnie Peace. They did a documentary called The Narcissist Playbook and it does detail whether it's a cult leader or an abusive relationship thing. Wow, okay.

14:34 I need to watch it.

14:35 Yeah, it's so good. But these characters do have a very specific pattern that they work from, but how we experience it It's so easy to make excuses because you think, oh, well, that's just my personal situation if you're looking at something as a blanket statement. So, yeah, we do need to have those conversations. And it's part of what my novel is about, too, is this narcissistic, how it works inside of an actual relationship and how often the community around the victim is. either doesn't know what they're looking at when they see the abuse or they suspect something, but they don't want to get involved.

15:12 It's a little too messy. That happens a lot, doesn't it?

15:14 And that's the most horrifying thing for somebody who leaves an abusive relationship or a narcissistic or manipulative relationship and they go and they need support and the people around them are like, It's a little messy. Like, I don't want to get involved. You know, relationships can be hard. Like, I don't want to talk bad about people. And nobody understands what actually happened and how you're falling. You feel like you're a crazy person.

15:40 Right, right.

15:41 You feel crazy.

15:41 There's a gaslighting element.

15:43 In isolation trying to heal, and it's really difficult.

15:46 Yeah, that is an interesting point of view, because I do feel like if you were to say to people, would you want to help someone who is trying to get out of an abusive relationship?

15:54 They'd say yes. Yes.

15:55 But then in the moment or on the day, something, there's like a disconnect. He never did anything wrong to me, so I don't. Right, or I never saw that, or things like that. And I do feel like some of that is because We're just conditioned not to believe women, you know.

16:16 Which is so sad. Absolutely. And there's enough people with narcissistic mothers who have experienced that kind of abuse from women as well.

16:25 That's interesting. That makes it even more complicated.

16:27 That makes it harder to decipher, well, who's the— and the biggest— one of the biggest narcissistic tools is to go— look at the victim and go, you're the narcissist.

16:34 Right.

16:34 And so they call the victim the narcissist and the victim's going, am I? Oh, listen. ChatGPT, give me a narcissist quiz, am I? You know, which basically means you're not because you're looking into it.

16:45 The first place. Of course, of course. Well put. That's well put. So when does your book come out?

16:50 It comes out October 20th.

16:52 Oh, how exciting.

16:52 Yes, The Betrayal of Cora Wexford.

16:54 It's very, very impressive looking.

16:56 Thank you. I painted this cover.

16:59 What? I know.

17:00 Let me look closer.

17:01 Oh.

17:02 That's amazing. I've never painted a person before. I always just paint abstract. And then my editor was like, Joy, you paint. Why don't you paint the cover? It's beautiful.

17:11 How do you do all these different things, Joy? It's so many.

17:14 It's a gift of creativity that I'm so grateful that I have. Sometimes it feels like a curse because my brain just never stops and it can be hard to slow down. But I do have, like, I love that I have creative outlets. It makes me really happy.

17:26 It's quite amazing. So paint to write your acting skills. You're an excellent podcaster. I don't know what category that would be in. And I'm sure there's things I don't know that you do.

17:36 That's a lot.

17:37 Very impressive.

17:37 I don't do math.

17:39 I don't do math either. I don't do math either.

17:52 All right, so now we're going to watch a really, really odd and interesting episode called Lights, Camera, Relationship.

17:58 What?

17:59 We're in the very interesting sixth season. I mean, some of this is so funny to me because some of it I remember, some of it I don't, right? So I remember, like, my stuff I'm remembering now better. I went through a phase where I remember nothing, and now I'm remembering it. you know like behind the scenes right yes but I'm I I don't know what's gonna happen when I'm.

18:18 Watching which is kind of cool that happened to me a lot yeah I was like I have no idea what's gonna happen yeah which I love it's really fun and this episode is written by Michael Patrick King and directed by Michael Engler.

18:29 So I as I was telling you when you got here I did watch two last night by mistake and so now my brain's gonna be jumbled but we're in the burger era era yes era I love.

18:39 Ron Livingston as an actor. He's amazing. He's great.

18:41 He's a great actor.

18:42 We need him to come on the podcast because is this not the episode that Rosemary is also in?

18:47 Or is it the next one?

18:48 His wife, Rosemary DeWitt, is also.

18:50 In our show.

18:51 Oh, I didn't know they were married. It's the next one.

18:52 She was not in this episode, but I love her. She's in the next one.

18:54 She has a tiny part. I'm like, was this your first part? I didn't even know. Because she comes in and just like that— Do they meet on your show?

19:01 I don't think so, but I started thinking because they're not in any— there' s no— Oh.

19:05 Okay, there's no crossover.

19:06 She's in Miranda's law office.

19:07 Their trailers could have been next to each other, though. It's true.

19:10 We need to get to the bottom of this, but I see Ron— I' ve seen him not that— I mean, like two years ago, something like that, maybe more, maybe three.

19:20 It feels like something would have been mentioned. I mean, I feel like they would have told me.

19:23 Yeah, that's a big deal.

19:24 I don't know for sure, but they're an amazing couple. I love them very much. I want them both to come on together. Wouldn't that be fun?

19:29 Yes.

19:30 I know.

19:30 But I don't know where they are. If you guys are listening, please come on the podcast.

19:35 I think he is very good. I think Berger, as I'm re-watching, it's a hard part to play.

19:41 Because when he first comes, I had forgotten literally everything.

19:49 The only thing that.

19:50 I believe is remembered about Berger is the post-it note, right? Like that's the thing that lives on, right?

19:55 But like he comes on, he's wearing these white t-shirts. They sit on a park bench and eat McDonald's.

20:00 He's so charming.

20:01 He's so charming and he's smart.

20:02 And they have very funny writer repartee where they trade words and they discuss words, which is like so Michael Patrick King. Like if you use the wrong word, Michael Patrick King's like, no, that is not the right word. Well, God forbid if you text some emojis to a writer.

20:16 Don't do it, okay? People, that's just a word of advice.

20:19 Do not text emojis to writers in a general way, especially Michael Patrick King.

20:24 He does not like that. He wants words. He loves words. Express yourself. They love words. Writers love words.

20:30 So I feel like that is the really fun part of their relationship that I'd fully forgotten about. She kind of meets someone who's her equal in kind.

20:38 Of her milieu. He writes fiction, but he's sharp and funny and all these things.

20:46 And then we've got this insane motorcycle story that I totally forgot about.

20:51 I was dying.

20:53 I was dying.

20:54 I mean, my main thought when the motorcycle happens in this episode, which is to go to Smith Jared, though he's not quite named that yet.

21:02 Jerry Jared's play in Brooklyn or wherever the heck we are, right? Yeah.

21:07 Honey, I don't go into Burroughs. Oh, I know.

21:09 Oh, I know. And I'm like, yeah, I remember the days when we didn't go into Burroughs.

21:12 I remember that.

21:13 Well, it's not the same, but yes, I remember it. But like, look at Carrie. Who would think, yeah, I'm.

21:20 Putting that girl on the back of my motorcycle to go to like an event.

21:25 I really struggled with that.

21:27 Right?

21:27 Yeah, I watched that and- I just felt like the level of selfishness of, first, I'm going to put her on the motorcycle. Okay, you show up at the house thinking it's going to be, but then you see her come out of the house. Yeah, come on. And the purse has the strings.

21:42 Use your eyeballs.

21:43 It's just not a thing.

21:44 And the hair.

21:45 And the hair.

21:45 I was very concerned about the hair. Yes, but then she's like.

21:48 Saying okay so he convinces her to do it then he goes really fast which obviously makes her so.

21:53 Uncomfortable but also her face she looks so mad yes like dude.

21:56 Use your eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah but he can't like he's in this selfish mode yeah but then not just only to do that but then he gets up he abandons her on the red carpet embarrassing and then abandons her for the night I know and leaves because he cannot get out of his own self pity.

22:14 I was so I know, but this is the other part that really surprised me watching it. She gets to a place at the end where she misses him and wants to call him.

22:25 That made me so sad, and I was also kind of surprised. Like, where's our Carrie?

22:30 Yeah. You know? I know.

22:31 It's interesting.

22:32 The excuses that we make because it's like, oh, he lost his job. He's feeling bad. Right. This is the measure of someone's character is when they're down and out, when things are really tough. That's true. What kind of person do they turn into, and why are we making excuses for people who turn into terrible people when things are hard?

22:47 People actually complain about Carrie that she doesn't have empathy and sympathy. She totally does. You didn't know there was Carrie haters.

22:53 Yeah, there's Carrie haters. Yeah. I know, I know. I'm not one, obviously.

22:56 No, I'm not either.

22:57 But, like, in this episode, the fact that she finds her way out of being mad, in my mind, rightly so, right?

23:05 Yes.

23:05 To be like, oh, you know, I feel bad for him. And look, I feel bad for him, too, if I can, like, backpedal a bit. that his, you know, contract were so out of order of what happened, but everyone listening knows that his book deal got dropped and he hasn't.

23:19 Even told her because she's doing well.

23:22 Right.

23:23 What an awkward, awkward relationship situation to be in. Yes.

23:26 You know, you do feel bad, but it's so crazy how he acts. But I also think it's super interesting because so she comes out, she looks the way she looks.

23:36 He's like, yeah, we're getting on the motorcycle.

23:38 Oh, insane right and i mean if you know sarah jessica at all the look on her face.

23:45 Is when she gets off the motorcycle when no when she get before she gets on.

23:48 Not to mention when she gets off like i mean no she's mad she's mad okay she's mad that's mad like she doesn't get mad that often she's mad she's like mad and um like.

24:03 Like, not seen.

24:04 Yes.

24:05 And having to just go along with it. Yes.

24:07 And, like, it's awkward.

24:08 Yeah.

24:08 Like, the awkwardness. And she's someone who can kind of make anything work, right?

24:12 Yeah.

24:12 And when I say she, I mean Carrie.

24:13 Yeah, yeah.

24:13 But whatever, it's all bled together in my mind. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

24:17 But it's so interesting. And then when she gets off, she's really mad because she says, didn't you.

24:21 Feel me digging my hands? And he was like, I thought you were excited or something. It's a nightmare to watch that, right?

24:29 But also because I remember being young and being like wanting to make accommodations for somebody who was going through a hard time. And I was proud of her even for yelling at him after she got off the motorcycle. Because there was a time in my life when I would have gotten off the motorcycle and been like, That really bothered me. You really were going, you know, I asked, you know, I still would have been so afraid to just let myself Be honest. So I'm glad that she did.

24:57 Oh, I was really glad she did.

24:58 But, jeez, that's a tough thing to navigate.

25:01 Really tough, but also, like, I don't even know why he leaves her on the red carpet. That makes no sense because also he's wearing the Prada shirt. He takes his jacket off, and there's the reveal of the red Prada shirt, which you're like, oh, you know what I mean? But then they get on the red carpet, and I do— it just reminds me. I had this— great actress and comedian who I don't want to name her because I don't want to be I don't want to be in her business or whatever but when she's on the podcast she came she's really funny she's young she's in her maybe she's 30 I don't know but.

25:33 She had a boyfriend who was also an actor. And then they broke up.

25:36 And she's part of this really happening group of youngsters, you know, doing really great in our business. And she really wanted a boyfriend. And she said all of her friends were criticizing her. Like, why do you want a boyfriend? Because young people don't like to.

25:49 Be in couples, right?

25:51 And she was like, but I.

25:52 Just want someone that I could take to these events and then kiss them at the end of the night, which I totally understand, right? But on the other hand, from my perspective— after being in this business for 30 years, right? I was like, listen, it's really hard to find someone that you can take to these events who's going to be okay with it.

26:09 Yes.

26:10 Right?

26:10 Yes.

26:10 That's what I thought about watching this storyline. Because she's asking him, his book deal has just been dropped, right? She doesn't know it or whatever. I can't remember where we are in the trajectory of her knowledge.

26:20 She knows it, and that's why on the carpet when somebody says, who's your date's name? Oh, yes. And she says, Jack Berger, he's also a writer.

26:26 Right.

26:26 And that sends him over the edge.

26:28 Right, but she's trying to be supportive.

26:30 Of course.

26:31 It's so impossible. And that is supportive.

26:33 Right? Right.

26:34 And I just feel for her so much.

26:36 It's very, very awkward. But where, I don't know, like, is there no human, is it hard to be humble? Is it that hard for him to just be like, thanks, honey, that was really sweet of you?

26:47 I don't think that, I think as a guy, and I'm only going from what people have told me in the past, okay? It's, you have this dichotomy of thinking that you have to be a certain way, right? How you've been conditioned and socialized your whole life. And you're supposed to be doing great at all.

27:05 Things at all times.

27:07 And if you, if you aren't, you feel so bad about yourself that to them, I don't think that feels like support. That feels like she's trying to help him. And that's like pushes their button that they're not doing well.

27:20 Yeah.

27:20 That makes sense.

27:20 It does make sense. And it, I think her question in the episode is really interesting that she's, cause she's talking with Samantha who's, with Jerry Smith. Right. And who is accepting her support.

27:34 Oh, well, he's special.

27:36 He really is.

27:37 I know.

27:37 I know. But her question of, is this younger generation of men really okay and really not threatened by... Or are they just acting? Are they just acting like it?

27:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:46 It's good.

27:47 And I think time has told that they were not really okay. I think That obviously you have to take it on a person-by-person basis, which is why Jerry Jared, i.e. Smith Jared, is okay because he's a special, special person. Which is why he can make it work with Samantha.

28:03 Yeah.

28:03 You know? Yeah. And as we know what's coming, he goes deeper and deeper and he's just super impressive.

28:09 Yes.

28:09 But that's just that person. That's not his whole generation.

28:12 That's right.

28:12 I mean, I haven't found a generation of men who can just be fine with the woman being.

28:19 I mean, I think there are people who can. you find being super supportive and the woman is the star of their relationship or whatever it is.

28:24 Yeah.

28:25 Or maybe they're shifting roles, right?

28:27 Yeah. I don't really know those people. I mean, it's hard to say sweeping things like that over an entire generation of people.

28:35 I mean, do you think there's like glimmers of hope, you know?

28:38 Yeah.

28:38 Yeah. Glimmers of hope about maybe the traditional male-female, you know, roles getting mixed up a bit.

28:47 Yeah.

28:48 In a good way.

28:48 Yeah.

28:49 I hope.

28:50 Yes, I think there has been.

28:52 I think it's just very hard to change these things.

28:55 Yeah, and there's not a lot of clear, just not a lot of clear direction and a lot of, you know, we're figuring, this is like the history of humanity though, right? Like every generation is rebelling against the generation previous to them. And we take some good things and we, some of the things that we do become, Habits that are out of rebellion, which also isn't necessarily great. But then some good stuff comes from that. But then the next generation is rebelling against us trying to be.

29:19 I mean, it's just a constant pattern.

29:21 The thing that that reminds me of is that when you hear the people, I don't know, I get the generations mixed up. But the youngsters talking about, you know, our generation always hustling.

29:33 Yeah.

29:34 You know?

29:34 Yeah.

29:34 And that that's bad. Oh, my gosh. I'm like, you guys.

29:37 I don't know.

29:40 How you're ever gonna accomplish anything.

29:41 Like the younger generation right now talking about how we're always hustling i don't think you and i might not be in the same generation but yes i think i don't think so i'm.

29:49 Very old very old i really am no i really am i am i am it's fine everyone knows everyone knows okay everyone knows it's fine We had a bunch of young ladies work on And Just Like That, which was great because we got to learn a lot about them.

30:12 Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

30:14 And first of all, they're always late, okay?

30:19 And I would say to the assistants.

30:21 I'd be like, please don't be late, okay? I know it's hard. And obviously, you know how call times are.

30:26 They're all over the map, 4 a.m., Yes, whatever it is.

30:30 10 p.m., whatever the heck. We didn't do that many nights. Exactly. On time because you have to get everything ready for everyone else, right?

30:36 Yes, and everyone else has shown up on time and they're waiting.

30:39 Right, and often these young ladies would be the last one of my group who would get there because they were the youngest of the group.

30:46 Do you know what I'm saying? And I'd be like, remember how we talked about this?

30:50 Interesting. So it's just that maybe they were never taught. Something happened. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

30:56 I know.

30:56 Me too. Because the work ethic for sure has changed out in the world, which is why I feel like I'm 45. So I don't know how old you are. I'm 61. Wait, really? Yes. I know.

31:08 It's weird. It's very shocking. I feel it's weird as well.

31:10 Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes. Nevertheless. Yes.

31:13 Well, you also, I would not guess, 45, did you say?

31:16 Yeah, 45.

31:16 Yes, I wouldn't guess that either. Well, thanks.

31:19 You know, we also spent a lot of our lives in a soundstage, which I think is very helpful in preserving.

31:25 That's true.

31:25 And I don't drink. I haven't had a drink in a long time.

31:27 Amazing.

31:28 Yeah, so I think that helps.

31:29 But I think even still the mindset of those generations maybe feel a little closer because I'm an 80s kid and there's a lot of— oh, shoot, what's it called?

31:38 Yeah.

31:39 Just the way things went about.

31:41 Analog.

31:42 Analog. Yes.

31:42 Good, good, good.

31:43 Thank you, Easton. Yes. There was a lot of just analog life that we lived.

31:49 Oh, yes. It was very different.

31:50 And the expectation of... if you don't have a solution, you find one.

31:55 Yes.

31:55 If you don't know the answer, you figure it out.

31:57 We didn't have Google.

31:58 You don't have Google. If you don't have a phone, you find, ask a stranger to borrow theirs.

32:03 Totally, all the things.

32:04 It's just like you're figuring out life and making it happen. Yes. And I see that with the younger generation that they, maybe because we've done so much for them.

32:13 Right.

32:14 That they're just conditioned that way. They don't know. So I don't want to assume that it's just a lack of care or sort of laissez-faire attitude about life. But sometimes it really feels that way. And I take it personally on some days.

32:25 Oh, it's tough, man. It's tough. I mean, I don't know either, right?

32:28 Like, I don't know.

32:29 I don't know what happened.

32:30 And I also do think COVID was a big part of it, right? Like, I don't know what that did to them, but something.

32:37 Yeah. Something for sure.

32:39 You guys, this is so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. So join us later in the week on Are You a Charlotte?