Aidan vs. Berger: Who Was Worse? with Bethany Joy Lenz.... (S6 E5 "Lights, Camera, Relationship)

0:01 Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Welcome back, everybody, to Are You a Charlotte? Today, fun guest, Bethany Joy Lenz from One Tree Hill, part two. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. All right, let's go back. Let's go back to the menfolk. Okay, so wait, the burger thing, so crazy to me watching this episode.

0:26 I didn't remember any of what they go through, and it was super fascinating.

0:31 Yeah.

0:31 Like, I really, really was with Carrie in this, you know, like.

0:37 I was, too.

0:37 Yeah.

0:38 Yeah. And as much as I love Ron Livingston as an actor, and it made me love him even more because he's so good in this part.

0:45 I mean, he's really good.

0:46 It's hard to pull off. It's true.

0:47 It's really hard.

0:48 Likeable, but also selfish.

0:50 So selfish. I mean, yeah, I don't even know. Like, I don't even know. I mean— I don't even know.

0:56 There was just a little, but there was a childishness to that that I really could not get on board with. But I totally was with Carrie in this episode. And it was like, you know what, man? Oh, this was one of the things I wrote down in my notes. It was something to the effect of, I wish I had them in front of me, but it was something to the effect of if you, if we make excuses, we're looking at this behavior and making excuses and he's, oh, he.

1:21 Says, I don't want to be that guy. Oh, that, yes.

1:25 Remember?

1:26 That was good. And that line. That was really good.

1:28 I think like the amount of times I have been told that by men.

1:32 Oh, really?

1:33 Yes.

1:34 Oh.

1:34 That I've been in relationships with and they do make stupid choices or do something stupid and they're like, I don't want to be this guy.

1:41 Okay.

1:42 Help me not be this guy.

1:44 Help me. You know, that's the implication. Interesting. I don't want to be this guy. I just... That's kind of... That's not great.

1:51 No, and the thing is you have to.

1:52 If somebody.

1:53 I just think if a guy says that to you or if anyone says that to you.

1:55 It's like... Then don't. But I'm not here to.

2:00 To facilitate your process of not being the person. Definitely.

2:03 Because what they're doing is telling you who they are. That's a good point.

2:06 I am this guy.

2:07 This is great. This is who I am. I don't think I've ever had a guy say this to me. No? I don't know about this. No, I don't know about this.

2:13 I've heard this a handful of times.

2:14 This is super interesting. I mean, when he finally said that, I'll tell you what I liked about it.

2:18 Okay.

2:19 I was like. at least he has some awareness that he's being an asshole. Right.

2:24 Which is what we always think when they say that.

2:26 Oh, got it. You think, okay, there's hope. He knows. Right. Because they never say that. Right. Like I've been in situations. This is so sad.

2:37 Okay.

2:39 I've been in situations with people where you're just waiting for some acknowledgement, some basic acknowledgement of, And you're like, if they could just take responsibility, things would be so much easier. Not that it would necessarily change my actions or my wanting to be in this or not be in this, right? But it would at least facilitate an honest conversation.

3:02 Yeah.

3:02 Right?

3:02 Yeah.

3:04 I guess that's a commentary on my exes that I'm giving right now. If any of you are listening— No, it's true. Take responsibility, right?

3:14 Yeah.

3:14 That's like the one part. And I'm not really sure that he was, but at the point in the scene when he finally says that, it's a relief because you're also like, she's so frustrated. Do you know how crazy you're being? Exactly.

3:24 Yeah. Right, right. So I think, I'm trying to think now what would be a more acceptable answer for me anyway.

3:30 Yeah.

3:30 Because hearing, I don't want to be that guy just tells me why. This is who I am. But we here, we're trained to hear, oh, he doesn't want to be that, so he cannot.

3:41 Well, because that's what he's actually saying, right? But is he? I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, right? And you're saying, no, no, no, you should look at that and go like, no, that's who he's actually being. He's saying this is who I am. So believe it.

3:51 Yes, so believe it. But if somebody is taking responsibility, what does that look like? It's... I don't want to be this guy. And so therefore, this is what I'm going to do.

4:00 To make some changes. That would be nice.

4:03 Just some kind of like, it's not like, I don't want to be this way. You know how many times in my life I could say that about myself? Like getting out of bed too late, being lazy about things, like so many things.

4:13 In my life.

4:13 Sure, I guess I hadn't thought about this. I don't want to be this way. But am I actually going to do anything to change it? I'm probably getting really too.

4:19 Like philosophical about it. No, no, I like it very much. I like it very much.

4:22 It bugged me when I heard that.

4:24 I mean, this is good. I like that. For me, I was relieved because I was like, is he going to just continue like being a jerk and what like forcing her? I tell you, this is what bugs me. This is what bugs me. And I think the situation that I found myself in, they're like. gaslighting in a way of like, I'm not being a jerk. What's wrong with you? Right. That's the worst. Right. I think that's what I've dealt with more. Right. And so you see Carrie kind of escalating because she's just like, what the heck is going on? Like, I don't want to get on the motorcycle. Then I get on the motorcycle. Then you dig your, my nails into your side and you don't seem to pay any attention. Do you know what I mean? And now you're, you know, looking at me

5:07 like I'm crazy while I'm shouting at you. Like everything's put on her. Right. Which is the worst. Yeah. Like the worst. So then he goes, I don't want to be this guy. I was like, oh, thank God. Thank God. He has some awareness that he's being a jerk and he can at least say that. So I guess it's like the first step.

5:23 Right.

5:23 But then really, if you want like a full person that you could actually be with or work with or whatever, they would need to say. a more complete, like, I don't want to be this way. I'm being this way because my book deal got dropped and I feel like, and I, it's really hard to stand next to you when you're, you know, doing great and buying me, you know, $ 800 Prada shirts. And you know what I'm trying to say?

5:47 Like a full thing.

5:48 But sometimes I guess the only way to really see if they're taking responsibility is time. You have to be able to see what happens next. Because that also is what, how covert narcissists work is they'll, it's push, push, push, push, push until you can't take it anymore and you're about to leave. And then they're like, I'm terrible. I'm so sorry.

6:05 I hate that I'm terrible. And you're like, okay, you acknowledge it. Great.

6:08 There's hope.

6:08 You get back on the boat with them. Then again, the same thing happens over and over. So if it becomes a pattern, then it's a problem. But maybe with this guy, it's just the one thing, but she hasn't been with him long enough to really know.

6:19 No, it's not just the one thing. But then we see that it- No, but this is the thing. This is the thing that's interesting that I had a little- breakdown when I saw this. So in the first episode where he meets her at the publishers, right, they meet in the office, then they go and they have the McDonald's on the bench. She's flirting, flirting. He's flirting, flirting.

6:40 It's so exciting for her because she's in the post-Aiden, post-big, like, single carry, which is, you know, long and stressful, right, for her. And she's like, oh, there is hope, right? And then she finally gets up the nerve to say, would you be my plus one to this book party? And he goes, oh, well, my girlfriend's parents are coming.

6:57 I completely forgot about that.

7:00 Everyone does. I totally had, too. I was like, wait, we had a red flag at the get-go. And he doesn't, he says it super casual, right? Like, oh no, I can't because my girlfriend, and she's like, huh? Why are you out sitting on a park bench eating lunch with me? Flirting your little butt off with me. Do you know what I mean? Then he breaks up with the girlfriend later, but that's so... Covert narcissist, right? Yes. Isn't it?

7:22 It absolutely is.

7:23 So we had a red flag.

7:25 We have to have another food source to go to.

7:27 Right?

7:27 Does he break up with the other girlfriend in a Post-it note too? Did Karen ever find out?

7:30 We don't even know. We don't even know. We just casually hear that she's gone later, the next episode or whatever. That's bad news. It's bonkers. Or maybe it's a couple episodes we don't see him. Bad news bears. I know, right? Yeah. But see, this is super, super helpful for me because I don't remember anything. any of this and I don't think at the time and I feel this way very often when I'm looking at Mr. Big you know for for us I was I was you know um we were like in New York I I graduated college in 87 and moved to New York or Hoboken as close as I could get to New York you know we were so used to Mr. Big's you know we never thought twice like I never doubted that she should be with Mr.

8:15 Big.

8:15 Never crossed my mind. Until he stands her up at the wedding, but that's obviously much later in the film, right? But, you know, I was just like, Mr. Big is great.

8:25 Yeah.

8:25 Right? That was my... Same. I always felt that way when I was younger. Now you rewatch and you're like, what? Right? So it's super interesting to look at these guys and the relationships and how well written they are from the lens of today and Because I never thought any of these things. Yes. And also, I know the actors, right?

8:43 So that also colors my whatever. Of course. I was just like, what? Any relationships with these people?

8:47 Yeah.

8:47 I was like, wait, he breaks up with her in a post?

8:50 What? I know.

8:51 I didn't see any.

8:52 Now it's like, wait, Aiden, can we get Aiden back and like tie this up? Because he was the best. Did you watch In Just Like That, though?

9:00 No. I'm sorry.

9:02 No, it's okay.

9:03 I'm just going off of Texas City. It's okay. You can get the, you can get, you can find out.

9:07 Oh, gosh.

9:07 Okay. You can watch In Just Like That and find out. Oh, no. Don't break my heart. Though I'm sure some people, I mean, look, I'm not going to rewatch In Just Like That because I don't have the space yet from it. But I do think at some point I might because obviously also like, You know, this is a very long time that we've been writing these shows, you know, and we have incredible writers, obviously.

9:31 And some of our fans do not like what we did with characters and just like that. I love to watch the comments about the characters because there's obviously Team Aiden, there's Team Big. I think some of those things are mixed up now, right, in the lens of 2026. But I also think that some people are just like, some people are like, I always hated Aiden, so it made perfect sense what you did in And Just Like That.

9:55 And then some people are like, what on earth did you do to Aiden? And then Just Like That. Oh, no. so it's like whatever and i mean it to me not having re-watched it all yet i thought it made sense easton did it make sense to you and just like that aiden but you don't like him do you.

10:15 You've always disliked Aiden why he's always been focused on himself he didn't care about Carrie for who she is it is true.

10:24 He didn't totally see her. Like, he didn't want her to smoke in the beginning. Like, little signs. There were little signs. She was always trying to fit into the box that Aiden wanted her to be in.

10:33 I'm going to have to actually just rewatch Sex and the City now to be able.

10:35 To pick up some of that. Because that's just my memory of him was like, he was great. Well, of course, you're also going on the energetics and the chemistry that they had, which was incredible.

10:43 Yes.

10:44 Right?

10:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:45 That's what's confusing. Yes, Easton, do you agree as a guy? I do.

10:49 I'd like to hang out with Aiden. I mean, he's got good vibes. I don't think he's the best for Carrie. I always think back to my motherboard myself.

10:57 Oh, good one.

10:59 Carrie's computer dies and he gets her a new computer, an Apple, a brand new iMac laptop. And she says, I don't want a new computer. I want the one that I had. And Aiden's like, well, I got you a new computer. Why aren't you happy?

11:13 Like that. That's a good example. That's a really good example. It is interesting, though, because I also feel, I mean, these are fictional characters, okay? Everyone don't get worried. Sometimes in my comments, everybody's like, you do know they're fictional characters. I've just really, you know, because I know all the people, right?

11:38 So it's hard to be objective about the work. But then now that we're objective about the work and the writing, the writing's so good and so layered that, like, there's two sides to everything. You know what I'm saying? Like, in so many ways.

11:51 Yeah, absolutely.

11:51 And now that we're really looking at Burger, I'm like, well, Gee, she never should have been over there. But I also love that she tried. I do too. Right? She needed to try someone different. And he's super, super different.

12:01 Yes.

12:02 Right?

12:02 Yes.

12:03 Okay. That was a lot about Carrie. Speaking of trying something different.

12:06 Yeah. Anthony wants Charlotte to date.

12:11 You're so good.

12:12 I mean, I just have to say, I've always loved Charlotte and Harry.

12:18 Aww.

12:18 And- I was really kind of taken aback when he was like, it's been two weeks.

12:23 You've got to get out there.

12:24 And I was like, two weeks? She's been in love with him. She's converting to Judaism.

12:28 For this man. Anthony doesn't care. Anthony's all about sex. Did you see when Anthony tells me that I need to just have casual sex with Harry? That's how my relationship with Harry starts out. I'd totally forgotten this. Yes, that's right. He takes me to a gay bar and he's like, you just be like, you know, fuck me now and get out. And I'm like, huh? What? And then I try to do it and Harry's like, okay.

12:49 He's adorable.

12:50 Oh, yeah. He's great.

12:51 He's so adorable that he's just like... Well, okay. I remember the look on your face in that episode, too.

12:57 It's like flashing in my mind of you being like, I'm going to try and do this.

13:00 Totally. I'm like, I'm going to do what Anthony said. I'm going to say these words. And I mean, Kristen, 100%. not good at this at all I'm sure that I'm playing just my own self there do you know what I mean like I don't know nothing about casual sex I'm very bad at it always have been tried really tried just not good at it yeah I've tried.

13:22 To it's not somebody always loses an eye it's just not.

13:24 Right it's not good it's not good Well put. Well put. It's not a great thing. I mean, whatever. It's great if you can do it. I'm jealous of the people who can do it. Let me put it that way. I'm just not one of them. But, you know, so I think we're going along the Anthony. So Anthony at the beginning of the Harry situation where Charlotte's like, I really like him, but he's not what I think I should be liking or whatever. And he's like, just fuck him.

13:49 You know, this whole thing. Now we're continuing down that we're now going to Anthony for romantic advice, which I partly think is because the girls are not that helpful in a way with this situation.

14:00 Yeah, I was actually pretty surprised at everyone's response around the table when you were talking about, I can't remember exactly what it was.

14:06 They think that I should just not be Jewish.

14:08 Yeah, they were like, you said, what am I going to give up my new faith because I'm not with you?

14:12 Right, and they're like, of course. Of course.

14:14 I know.

14:15 Even Miranda. I know. I was like, do you not know her? I was confused. Listen, the whole time. Okay. It's the whole time. It's the whole time of the show. And they get mad at me. The real people get mad at me when I say this. So if any of you are listening to me, I'm really sorry. But like. In the very beginning of the show, they roll their eyes at me because I'm the counterpoint, right? That's my job.

14:36 But it was so hard not to take it personally. Do you know what I mean? Because like over and over, they would just roll their eyes, roll their eyes and roll their eyes. And somehow Charlotte is never like, stop rolling your eyes. You know what I mean? But I wanted to. I wanted to.

14:50 I never thought of that.

14:51 That must have been hard. It was hard. Thank you so much for understanding. But it was my job. I mean, I do understand intellectually, like, it may, we had to have that in the conversations, right? Like we had to have, just like how Miranda has to be, you know, kind of cynical and, you know, no nonsense and whatever. And also Samantha, she pretty much sticks to her, her point of view of like, live and let live, do everything.

15:16 I do everything. I do what I want. Like, it's great.

15:19 Right.

15:20 But we needed the conflict of Charlotte being like, but what about love? You know what I mean? Whatever it was.

15:25 Right.

15:26 And then they all roll their eyes and then she just continues. You know, because she is very kind of strong and committed inside herself to her own ideals.

15:37 Yes.

15:37 Like, even if all of her best friends are going to just continually criticize her. It's interesting. But they're also very, they're, I think the fact, in terms of what you were saying also about actions, right? Like, they might roll their eyes, but they're also there. Yes. You know?

15:52 Yes.

15:52 Like, it's not like they're like, oh, poof, we won't even, you know, deal with her. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're really very... there i feel like you know like for her to cry on their shoulder or whatever when it when it needs to happen.

16:06 You know i guess that's just a part of adult friendship is just you know no one is me i'm not you you're not me we you know we can be close and connected you can support someone in the way that they have decided they want to live their life and they want to view the world but um Nobody's ever going to convince me to not be me or see the world the way I do. You know, I can learn things and grow, obviously, which we need each other for. But yeah, I think that maybe when I was younger, I imagined that friendship is kind of, we get this illusion in grade school of like, you find the people that are your you two, you twos, and that everything in life is going to be, oh yeah, we're the same.

16:46 We see it the same. We're going through the world the same way.

16:49 Mm-hmm. it's sweet for a season, but I don't think that's really what real friendship is made out of. So it's, I mean, I guess that's just part of it. You know, you, you have to have people that see things differently, but that's still hard. Cause it's still like a loneliness to it.

17:04 I do feel when I watch Charlotte, I do feel a bit like there's a loneliness, but I also feel like, um, everyone in the group of the friends on section city, um, Benefits definitely from having the others around. Yes. Right? Yeah. Like you need the other. It's like a weight and balance system.

17:24 Definitely.

17:24 Definitely. Now in my real life, I tend to just have a few friends that I've had forever.

17:30 Right?

17:30 And we do see things really pretty similarly. Yes. And that's such a joy.

17:38 Yes.

17:38 You know, like just a, like a, it's like a restful feeling. Yeah. Like you don't have to be like. Explaining yourself.

17:48 Yes.

17:48 Which is so nice.

17:49 But you have to have some of those people in your life.

17:51 But I also feel like, like you were saying earlier, also it's about time, right? Like over time, you really see who people are.

17:57 Yeah, you have to earn that.

17:59 See how they behave. And you also know what they've been through, which is, you know, so important in life.

18:04 Context is so much.

18:04 Right?

18:05 Yeah.

18:05 But, I mean, if one of them just suddenly significantly changed their mind about something important or whatever, I would have to be like, hey, wait a minute. I've known you for 35 years. Are you sure? Like, you know, but I think that's great. Right. And then if they said, yes, I'm sure I want to change my mind about whatever.

18:23 I don't know. The sky is red. I just feel like, okay, yes. You know what I mean? But I would question it. I would question it. And I think that's important, right? Like you have to be able to have enough confidence in, and I do feel like it's kind of what happens on the show, right? Is like, everyone knows that everyone has different points of view and they're questioned and debated and we turn it over, right? Like, Yes. You know, because that's Carrie's main thing. She's asking the question. Right.

18:49 And delving in in all different ways. Maybe this, maybe that.

18:53 I don't know.

18:53 I don't know. And I do feel like that's what they do as a foursome. And that's kind of their way that they communicate, that they come together. And I think that's great.

19:00 Yeah.

19:00 It's really good. Right.

19:02 You have to have people to process with.

19:03 Right. Yes. Processing. Absolutely.

19:05 Processing. Because there are some friends you just sit, you don't really, there's not a lot of processing to be had. It's like you kind of see things the same way and everything's. That cozy, comfortable thing.

19:13 That's true.

19:13 And then you have friends that you sit down with because you know that they're going to spark something intellectually.

19:20 That's true, too. That's true, too. But my friends have had a long time. I might go to them to process something because they know me so well. Oh, yeah. That's true, too. And I can say, well, am I off or whatever? Yes. You know what I mean? They're a good barometer because they've known me forever.

19:35 Yeah.

19:36 And they can say, and this includes me. People in the fictional world who are also in the real world. Yes. Like sometimes I'll be like, I need to ask Cynthia about this because I'm just not sure. Am I off?

19:48 She knows.

19:48 Am I not off?

19:49 Right?

19:49 Yeah. And because we've also had a very interesting combination of real life friendship and professional, you know, we've gone through this. I'm sure you feel this way. Absolutely. Right? It's just family.

20:00 I mean, at that point, they're just family.

20:02 Because you've gone through so many different things together.

20:05 Yeah. Yeah.

20:05 That you wouldn't normally go through with your friends. Right. Like other sides of life, like business stuff and like having to fight for yourselves and having to kind of group together, you know, in tough situations that you might not be in with your friends.

20:21 Yeah.

20:21 Your regular friends.

20:22 I agree.

20:22 Right?

20:23 When the show picks up, season one, episode one, how long have these girls known each other?

20:29 Well, Charlotte came to the girlfriends later. They have a flashback at one point to the 80s, I feel like. And the three of them are friends. Yeah, it's brief. I think it might be in season two. I'm sure everyone listening is going to get onto the Instagram and tell me. But they have a flashback, I feel like, to call it like a dorm room type of a party.

20:50 And they're wearing like wacky 80s clothes. But then, oh yeah, no, then... We also have a weird flashback where I'm walking across Washington Square Park with Carrie, also wearing an 80s tennis outfit, and she's dressed as Madonna, basically. But why? I need to watch this episode.

21:07 I know.

21:08 I can't remember now why. I remember what we're wearing, and I remember that day, but I can't remember why we're wearing it. Is it a real flashback? Does anyone know? Someone will tell us. Hannah's like, I don't know what you're talking about. So I think that the three of them were friends for a long time. And then Charlotte comes to the friend group a little bit later.

21:26 Okay.

21:27 But for some time, right? They've been friends when we meet them in season one. Definitely, I would say 10 years, I'd say. Okay.

21:36 Okay.

21:37 So, yeah. At least for the others. Maybe for me. Because we're 30-something in the first beginning. We're 33, I think, in real life. I was 33 when the show started, which means so was Sarah. Cynthia would have been 32. Kim would have been, I don't know.

21:53 Something.

21:55 But we're playing for like a few years.

21:58 Early 30s, late 20s.

22:01 We're not late 20s. We were never in our 20s. That was the point. That was the point. Right? Because there were no shows that were like, let's focus on single independent women in their 30s. It was shocking. Okay. Oh yeah, on the cover of the magazine.

22:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:14 That's right. That was good. That hangs in my closet. It does? Yeah. Really? Who needs a husband? I know, it makes me laugh every time I look at it. Isn't it good? Isn't it good? No one told us what the title was going to say. No, they just called us up. Like, will you guys be on the cover of Time Magazine? We were like, what? What?

22:33 What?

22:34 The cover of Time Magazine? And we were in the middle. You know when you're working and you get to the point where, like, the season's really hard and you're up against the gun or whatever that phrase is and you're not going to finish? We were at that part, right, of the season. We were like, how are we going to do this photo shoot? We've got to finish. We're not going to finish. They came to Silver Cup where we filmed and photographed us on an empty soundstage, like, in between scenes, basically, like at lunchtime.

22:59 Isn't that so funny?

23:00 Yeah. The quick moments in life that suddenly become timeless.

23:02 Yeah.

23:03 But it is funny when you look at the picture because we're like, you know how they would cut, like we did stand in a weird triangle and Cynthia had to stand above us on a box and lean her head forward, which is like so awkward in a photo shoot, right? But like you can tell they cut and pasted because my head's really small and Sarah's head is bigger. And the perspective is strange, but whatever. I love it. Okay.

23:28 Charlotte.

23:28 Yes. Poor Charlotte.

23:29 She's sad. Okay.

23:31 She's basically sad and she's embarrassed. And she says, what am I going to say? She's at the coffee shop where they're trying to tell her to move on. And she says, what am I going to say? I was married, then got divorced, then fell in love with my divorce lawyer and we were going to get married, but I blew it and we split up too. And it's true.

23:45 It is sad. So then she's with Anthony in Central Park, which I love anytime we could shoot in Central Park. Such a joy. I lived right on Central Park West for a Most of the show. Loved it. I'm so jealous. Oh, my God. It was incredible. And then right before COVID, my business manager was like, you really got to let that apartment go. And I'm like, I don't want to.

24:04 But I did. It was probably good. It was probably good. But then we went back to work on it just like that. And I had no apartment. But that's okay. We lived in some very cool Airbnbs. It worked out.

24:13 It worked out.

24:14 But it's fun to shoot in Central Park. But it's also fun to shoot with Mario anytime. He's very funny. And he's so young. And he wants to pick guys out walking across the park.

24:24 Yeah.

24:25 It's pretty silly. That guy. Exactly. Exactly. And then, oh, then we have the naked play. The naked play.

24:33 Ooh.

24:34 Oh, my goodness. I mean, I've been talking to Jason. I've had Jason on the podcast twice already. It's great fun. But rewatching Jason is quite something. I remember this day that he had to be naked, like yesterday, because I was so stressed for him. And he was so calm, like, because he'd been a model, right? And he's talked about it really very interestingly today. And I remember at the time, because you know how those days, I mean, we've got 200 extras there. All of it. Willie's there. Everybody's there.

25:08 You know, he's up there in this god-awful play, okay? My god. I mean, oh my god.

25:14 It's like the worst community theater production of our town ever.

25:18 It's so bad. It's so bad. Until he gives his monologue. Oh, thank the Lord, right? I mean, he's just so good. He's so good. And it's so interesting how they wrote it because he's so good looking that you really don't think he's going to be good. And then he's so good. But he distracts Samantha. She's like, oh, wait. I know.

25:39 Samantha's like, what? You actually are a star. Yeah, and the way they push in, because she's going to help him anyway, which is so sweet of her. She's like, listen. I love her. I know. She's like, trust me. I know what I'm doing. The gays and then the girls. And he doesn't believe it. He doesn't believe it, which I totally am like, how is she going to do this? Like, he's naked on a billboard in Times Square. That's a...

25:59 It's like good and bad at the same time. You know what I'm saying? But then he's so great in that horrible play. And it's so beautifully written. It's so good. But the thing with Jason that he talks about interestingly, because I remember at the time, it was a lot of sitting. We're basically extras in that scene, right? We just all have to be there to support because Samantha asked us to be there. And Jason, this was his.

26:21 I think it's the second scene I've been in with him. The first scene would have been the restaurant where we first meet him, right? Which was also so much pressure because all these extras and all the women had to be ogling him. And then we all have to say a moose boosh and we couldn't say it. I remember this. Like, what's a moose boosh? And we're all talking about veganism, which at that point was brand new, you know, as a thing. And then... I remember he had to like, because he's waiting on us, right? So everyone's sitting and he, you know how it's complicated in a restaurant. There's always so many extras and props, right? And you have to like work all the business out. Yeah, the sounds and

26:54 all the silverware and plates. And I just remember, I remember feeling for him like, oh God, he's the new guy and there's so much pressure.

27:01 That's a lot to walk into.

27:02 Right? And he had to be this like incredibly good looking guy, all the things, which he is obviously. But I was like, oh man, he's doing great, you know? But then- The naked play, I remember just sitting there going like, oh my God, they're actually going to make him stand up there naked and bow. And I feel- Oh, the bow.

27:23 Right?

27:24 And the fact that it wasn't just walking. Like, it's one thing as an actor for me, I would think. It's one thing to walk out naked. It's another thing to get undressed, but not even step out of the overalls. He just pushes the overalls down to his ankles, right?

27:42 It's so vulnerable.

27:43 I know.

27:44 Oh, my gosh. I felt horrible for him. And then I remember they made him, like, turn around and then turn back around. And I was like, could you guys just ease up on this guy? And they were like, no.

27:55 They wanted to make sure they had every angle.

27:56 They did. I remember just dying for him. And I asked him, you know, what did it feel like? Like, did it feel strange, the level of objectification?

28:06 Yeah.

28:06 And he said no, that he was somewhat used to it from the modeling world, which, you know. Yeah. makes sense but then also he said he had watched how the men in the modeling world treated the women sometimes who were very young and you know just inappropriate behavior and making them feel so uncomfortable and it really made him awake to what women go through all the time wow in a really interesting way and so he thought you know i can deal with this i can handle it like it was so interesting to hear him talk about it because at the time i was like This is not right. I want to, like, cover him up.

28:39 I feel so bad for him. But he handled it with such grace.

28:43 What a perspective to take away, too. Right? It's really beautiful.

28:46 I know. Super interesting. He's very interesting. Very interesting guy. Played a very interesting character.

28:52 I can't remember if I've met him or not. I dated a guy who played his boyfriend on Midnight Texas.

28:57 Wait, was that the vampire thing? Yeah. Oh, wow.

28:59 And I heard great things about him, like just super professional, really, really nice guy. But yeah, I just thought he did such a great job.

29:07 So he plays a gay vampire? Yeah.

29:09 Or a gay cowboy, gay cowboy vampire hunter maybe?

29:12 He's a cowboy, what? Gay cowboy demon hunter maybe? Yeah. Okay, so he's not a vampire himself? I don't think he's a vampire. I think he's hunting them. Okay, who knows? I don't remember. This was a while ago. We need to find out. We're going to see him again.

29:25 But he's so great in this part as Jerry or Smith.

29:29 I don't know what you end up calling him. Yeah, it's going to be Smith. It's going to be Smith. It could become Smith either this one or the next one. Wait, and then the end of Charlotte is that this great-looking guy who works at Prada, who Carrie brings, you know, talks– Talks a little bit of Italian to me and I'm like, okay, I'm all good. I'm in, I'm in. But then I did hear people, someone said, I think maybe my notes from our producer said that I leave with them. I think we all go out together. I don't leave with him, leave with him. I'm not that quick to be better.

30:11 No, I didn't notice that.

30:12 Yeah, no, there's like little, you can hear little probably in ADR. I say like, oh, yeah, we're all going out. You know, like when we've moved on to Carrie, who's talking about, you know, thinking about being alone or whatever after Burger has deserted her with her long stringy purse. I know. Let's talk about Samantha for a second because this was super interesting for Samantha, I thought, because you really see a development and growth in her feelings for him.

30:41 But also I feel like character wise, like even compared to the whole Richard storyline, which I understand she was in love with whatever, but like it wasn't, it didn't take her by surprise like this. I like that so much.

30:58 I loved that her being like, you know what? I'm going to help you. Let me actually allow myself to put something of me into this.

31:06 Definitely, but that happens even before she sees how good he is. That's what I love, right? She's like, oh, yeah, he's my boy toy right now, and I'm going to help him. Then she sees him acting, and she's like, no, this is more. This is more than what I thought I was doing.

31:20 And the audience gets the taste that he's actually, he is a really, like we've suspected that he's a special guy because of just the way that Jason played that part.

31:28 Yeah.

31:29 But to see him in that moment, that monologue, you're like, oh, this is a poet. This is someone who is a deep thinker and a deep feeler. And he is not what we expected.

31:38 It's so good. I didn't remember that part at all. All I remember is the naked part. I had not remembered the acting part. He's great. And I love when they cut to each of us looking at him. It's so good. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. I liked it a lot. I don't remember that part. I just remember sitting there dying for him. Well, let's talk about Miranda here a little bit. I don't know exactly how we got here because I'm out of order.

32:03 But it's so interesting that now she's just like, I'm in love with Steve. Now, she had pushed him out first, right? Oh, she pushed him out so many times, Joy.

32:11 Right.

32:11 I mean, over and over again. It was like the relationship's over, and every time they try— Oh, she tortures this guy. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:16 That's why he's got another girlfriend.

32:18 So he's got a girlfriend.

32:19 He's like, look, I heard you. Message received. You don't want to be with me.

32:22 I'm out. And now she's like— This is like the fifth time he's had to say that. Yes, yes. So he's really believing her.

32:27 Oh, gosh.

32:28 And now she's had his baby, right?

32:30 Yes.

32:30 But she's told him that he did not have to have anything to do with it. She just felt— actually, she didn't feel. We all tell her that she has to tell him when she's pregnant. So she does, which is good.

32:39 Good thing.

32:40 Good thing she does. And then he's like, I want to do this. I want to do that. She's like, no, no, you don't have to do anything. He's like, no, I want to do stuff because he's a good guy, of course, as we know. But the thing that really made me laugh, and I just want to know from a female perspective, this— because I watched two last night, bear with me. Is this when, does she, does he, this is the cupcake thing.

33:01 Cupcakes.

33:01 And he shows his abs and she's leaning over and they cut to her face like, oh. I don't think I saw that. Okay, okay, because it's such a. Unless I was looking down or something. It's such a guy thing to me. That makes no sense. Like, you're not like, oh, his abs. I can't look at his abs.

33:23 Yeah, I don't think that's ever happened to me.

33:25 Me neither.

33:25 I might have done a double take at some point, but I've never felt like I needed to restrain myself.

33:31 Right? Right? I know. I know. And also, like, if you're in love with someone, it's more, to me, like what they're saying.

33:40 Yeah.

33:41 Or like the sweetness. Standing close. Right? In your eyes. Right.

33:45 Yeah.

33:45 Right. Looking at them, not their abs.

33:48 No.

33:49 I mean, I can appreciate some abs. That's fun to look at for a second.

33:51 Right.

33:51 In a different way, though. Yeah. Not like I'm so in love with this person, and then I see his abs, and it's making it really hard for me. No. No. No. I'm not wired that way. No. It was so bizarre. I do not think that Miranda's wired that way either, okay? Yeah, that was kind of a surprise.

34:06 Strange. Yeah.

34:07 Strange. And it just, I know intellectually what it took to get that shot, right? Like we had to have a close-up on David Igenberg's abs. We had to get Cynthia in the scene to for some reason bend over because he's like spilled something and then have a close-up on her bending over looking at the abs to play this moment. Oh, man. That's a lot of work. It's a lot of ab work.

34:27 I know.

34:28 I know.

34:29 It was bizarre. It was so bizarre.

34:32 Like, I felt bad for her, but also, she fully deserves it. How do you advise a friend who's coming to you and going, like, I'm still in love with him, but he's going to have cupcakes with his new girlfriend?

34:44 It's like, yeah, but you pushed him out so many times. Absolutely. I mean, I think, I don't know for sure, because as I said, I'm out of order, and I don't know how we got here from the last time that I saw them, which was... that she was just co-parenting with him right yeah but my feeling is whenever miranda gets deep feelings all of us treat her with kid gloves because it's a big deal different yeah you know what i mean we're like we're just gonna be nice we're just gonna be gentle You know what I mean?

35:17 Because if she's feeling vulnerable, that's a big deal for her, right? So that's what I took from how Carrie handles it. You know what I mean? But I do think Carrie also has the subtext of, no, you put this guy through a lot. But it's subtext. She doesn't, like, push it.

35:30 Yeah, just put the cupcakes down. Just go ahead, get your things. Yes. Leave the house.

35:34 Yes, yes. Because also, it's so sad where she's like, I can't go to the play because I'm so upset. I'm like, what the— What's happened to Miranda? I mean, I did have so many moments during this episode. I was like, well, we just, we just, we're so confident in like the writing and the acting and the way that we're doing the show at this point. I think that like, we're just, as people are complicated, right? Yeah, that totally checks out.

36:00 I think the people who come across as the hardest are covering up because they're so vulnerable and they feel so much.

36:07 Right, right, right.

36:08 So that totally checks out to me.

36:09 It's interesting that we, I feel like also tonally, this episode to me is interesting because it kind of has breath in it, like more, there's like, It used to be, and I do love this about our show early on where everything was like, I don't know how else to talk about it, but like the editing, everything was very tight and the dialogue had to be delivered in this very quick, tight way for the jokes to work and the ideas to kind of sizzle, right? But at this point, it's like we're trusting ourselves more and there's like more breath in between things sometimes. Like especially in the scene with Berger, Like, yes, she gets off that thing, motorcycle, and starts shouting at him, right? But then there's like

36:58 breath before he goes, you know.

37:00 I loved, we experienced that on One Tree Hill as well, where we would start the first season or so felt like it was a lot of that things happening. You got to move to the next thing happening so that people stay in their seats and watch the show.

37:14 But once we, once.

37:16 They started to trust us and let us, breathe into the characters and give space in a scene and let things take a little bit longer than they normally do. It felt so good as an actor to do that. And I feel like the episodes really benefit from that too.

37:32 Because.

37:33 People need time. That's real life. You need time to process things.

37:36 It's true. It's true. And the more you fall in love with a character.

37:39 As time goes on, you get deeper and deeper connected to these characters. You need time. Your emotions are connected to the characters and what happens to them. I agree.

37:47 But this is a comedy, right? So it's interesting to me. And people have a lot of interesting feelings about the later seasons. Like some people love the later seasons. Some people don't love the later seasons. Like I'm super curious now that I'm in it, like, Like, I see. The tone shifts. It's interesting. I personally really like it, but I think I like it because, you know, it's us.

38:09 I don't know how to put it. I like it because it's also different, and I love a show when I'm watching a show to take chances. You know what I'm saying? Like, to not feel like, oh, okay, this was how we started, so we've got to stay right in this little mold. You know what I mean?

38:24 Yeah, totally. I mean, if something doesn't work, at least you tried. You can always— change it up the next episode too.

38:30 That's true but in our world I don't think we ever say that anything didn't work I don't I'm sure they did but I can't think of what it is you know what I'm trying to say like like I feel and because this is HBO right they really trusted us they really trusted themselves yeah and and therefore us too you know what I mean it was awesome it really was awesome really really was awesome I just saw was I watching Our show, I guess, last night, they have a new, like, HBO sizzle reel kind of a thing.

39:05 Oh, yeah. New things coming up. Yeah.

39:07 About how it's like a retrospective about how, and it's like, I'm sure, I'm reading a lot into this right now. I'm totally just making this up. I have no basis in reality for it. But it basically is talking about, I think it says, it starts by saying I believe for 50 years and I'm like 50 years really HBO has been there for 50 years but you know the whole merger situation right like the merger situation is at a dire dire crossroads I don't know when we air this what will have happened but like it's ongoing as we all know and Warner Brothers is you know in the crosshairs of like so many different agendas and it's so complicated but HBO is part of Warner Brothers and, you know, it's a precious, precious entity to me and to,

39:54 you know, anyone who has worked there, I believe. And many people who have just watched us, right? So it starts by saying for the last 50 years, it basically says we change television, right? You know, it's a commercial for ourselves, but it shows the Sopranos. It shows us. It shows, you know, it was glorious. Yes, like I want to replay it in my mind, but I really...

40:16 was like, wow, do you know what I mean? Like, it's been incredible to be part of it. It's been just so incredible to be part of it.

40:23 It's true history. Right? Yes.

40:24 But you never would have known at the beginning. Never. You never know.

40:28 I know.

40:29 You never know. And that's what's really amazing about life in general, I guess, but also our business, right?

40:33 Yeah.

40:33 Like you're in something, you don't know what's going to happen. You just hope for the best.

40:37 Is it going to end up on a shelf? Am I going to be on the cutting room floor?

40:39 You don't know. Or is it going to last for 50 years? Yeah. It could be anything. It could be anything. Yeah. Any of the above, right? Super fascinating. It is an adventure.

40:47 Yeah.

40:47 Thank you for joining us, Joy. Thank you for having me.

40:50 This was really fun.

40:51 It's really fun. You're a very, very amazing, inspiring person.

40:54 Thank you. I really appreciate that. You're welcome. And I love talking with you.

40:57 You too.

40:57 I think you're so interesting and smart.

40:59 Well, thank you. I'm not as interesting as you. I need to read your book.

41:02 Your new book.

41:03 I hope you do. Yes.

41:04 The Betrayal of Cora Wexford. I hope you enjoyed its neo-Victorian suspense novel.

41:10 With a beautiful book. Painting on the front that she painted, you guys.

41:12 And I'll do the audio book. So if you're an audio book listener, which I am, I love audio books. Yeah. So that will, I'll send you a copy of that too.

41:21 Oh, that's really interesting. So you already recorded that?

41:24 No, I'm recording in the next couple of weeks.

41:26 Got it. But you yourself are recording your own fiction book. Did you do this for your autobiography or your memoir as well? I did.

41:31 Yeah, I did it for the memoir too.

41:32 Cool. Was that hard? No. No. And in fact, have you ever thought about writing a book? Or do you, have you written a book? I have had the thought. Yeah. Yeah.

41:41 If you do, it's so fun to narrate because as an actor, you can like get into the different characters.

41:47 Do I want to, though? Well, I don't know.

41:50 It's up to you. I found it to be fun. I just thought that took it as like an acting exercise. It was fun.

41:56 Was it very, I mean, I guess because you'd already written it, like did it dredge the stuff up in a way that was helpful or not helpful?

42:04 I think it was helpful. I think it was in the end helpful. Being able to put, in memoir specifically, being able to put all that on paper. I think it probably does the same thing that writing in a journal accomplishes, where getting it out of your body. And then now it's all in chronological order. It's not just like a spaghetti bowl in my brain of all these random memories that are connected somehow. Now it's like in a chronological order, and I can close the book and put it on a shelf.

42:29 Wow, amazing. It feels really good.

42:31 I don't know if you journal, but I think it probably does the same kind of thing.

42:33 I have had times in my life that I journal, but I really don't like it.

42:36 Oh, you don't?

42:37 I don't like it. I'm very fascinated by people who like it.

42:41 What don't you like about it?

42:42 I intellectually know that it's great, right? I can 100% see the benefits. I don't know if it's because I'm a single mother of two children. I went on location recently with Kevin Bacon. I love him so much, okay? And he goes... Oh, you know, I'm getting to the point where I'm missing home. I'm really missing home. And I'm like, oh, not me. I'm sleeping.

43:02 You know, and he goes, really?

43:04 And he goes, I miss my things. And I said, yeah, I mean, I know what you're saying. But when I'm at home, I never sit down. Like I'm tired. Yes.

43:12 You know what I mean? You know, I don't think I realized that you were a single mother of two. I am. That is so impressive.

43:20 Thank you. Truly.

43:21 It's crazy. And you're just doing everything yourself.

43:25 I mean, I have some help, thank God.

43:27 Yeah.

43:27 That's why I'm here with you or my son would be back there asking us so many questions. So many. Do you know what I mean?

43:35 So great.

43:36 But yes, yes. So it's a lot. So there's a lot of things that I used to do, like reading fiction, that I really haven't done that much of lately. You know what I mean?

43:43 Yeah.

43:44 But, you know, there are phases of your life, right? And in this phase, I'm still really in it because he's eight, you know? So he's eight, she's 15. And she's, you know, 15 is pretty independent in so many ways, as you know.

43:55 But eight is not, you know, eight is still, it's still full-time job.

44:00 Intensive, intensive.

44:01 Like as a single mom, there's so many times when we think like, okay, I've got the routine now. I've got, now I get their personality and where they're at and I've got it. And then all of a sudden, as soon as you feel like you get comfortable, I mean, this is what I experienced anyway.

44:12 No, no, they change.

44:13 Yes.

44:13 And then something changes.

44:14 No, this is true. I'm You're constantly on your toes trying to stay.

44:18 Up to date. This is 100%.

44:19 Yes, yes, yes.

44:20 So it takes so much. It's true. And that's one thing I do love about social media, right? Like you can see things on social media where they talk about the mental load. Yes. Because the mental load, I think, is the hardest thing. Even if you're not outwardly like getting their shoes or whatever the heck that they left.

44:37 You're thinking like, okay, well, when we go back to school, do we want to keep the schedule that we have now? Or is he going to be too exhausted to go to basketball as much as he wants to go to basketball? Or should we do the rec leader? Should we not do the rec leader? What's going to be better for him?

44:50 You know, you're just like constantly, constantly, constantly because there's no one to share the load. And I don't even know if you had a partner, if that partner would be sure. I have no idea. Right. Yeah. I've never done it with someone. I haven't either.

45:02 Right.

45:02 There you go. So it's not even necessarily just a single mother thing.

45:06 Right.

45:06 It's just the mom. The mom has a lot of responsibility.

45:11 Yeah.

45:11 Mental, emotional and physical responsibility.

45:14 Yeah.

45:15 I feel right.

45:16 I agree.

45:16 Super interesting. You're so impressive.

45:19 Thank you.

45:19 I don't know if I knew what I was doing, but here I am. You know what? None of us would get into half the things we get into. It's so true. No, no one knows. No one knows. That's a good point. That's a good point. No, you just go, yes. Totally. Just jump. Well, you have the deep— I do believe in, you know, like— There's a deep, deep, deep level at which we're operating. And I do know for myself, because I had to really choose motherhood, right? And I didn't know.

45:42 I thought for a long time that I wasn't. I was like, no, no, no, no children for me. Don't care about getting married. Don't care about children. And then all of a sudden one day I was like, oh, no, no. I think I do. I do. Whoa. I do feel like it's like on a deep level. You know, it's a deep, like a spiritual level, really.

45:58 Don't you think? Yeah. It was for me. Yeah. I knew that was the right thing and where I belonged and what I... I knew I had a natural ability for motherhood, and just it's been a great, great joy of my life.

46:11 Oh, that's good. I don't think I knew I had a natural ability. I like how you said that. But everyone around me knew that. They were like, no, no, you're going to be great. I was like, I don't know. Isn't that interesting?

46:21 You didn't feel it for yourself. I didn't.

46:23 I felt scared. I felt scared, but that I needed to do it. I felt like I needed to do it, you know, for myself, for my growth, for like I felt like a calling kind of a situation.

46:33 Yeah.

46:34 But I was really panicked because I'm a single child. Are you an only child? Yes. Sorry. That's the word. Single child. I've lost my mind. I'm a single person now, but I was an only child. And I wasn't really around babies. I mean, I was an aunt and I was an auntie to my goddaughter, like a godmother, whatever.

46:52 But like more the fun. I'm the fun auntie, right? Like not the call me when they're sick auntie. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, I didn't know, like, the stuff, right? Like, I was like, all the stuff. I don't know the stuff. I had to learn the stuff. I don't know the stuff. Yeah, like, I took classes and stuff. You know what I'm saying? And when you adopt, you have to anyway. Like, there's a lot of classes involved.

47:14 Oh, yeah.

47:15 Yeah.

47:15 Okay.

47:16 I did all the things. But it still doesn't prepare you, of course, for a little baby. Ooh! Like, the pictures of the day that I brought my daughter home, the first day that I brought my daughter home, my eyes are like saucers. Like the amount of like fear and adrenaline that I see in my own eyes. And I mean, I'm holding her correctly. I'm doing all the things correctly, but my eyes are just like, oh my gosh.

47:42 You don't get exempt from that when you adopt because that happens when somebody, you know, they hand you the baby and they're like, see you later.

47:48 Good luck. Totally. What am I supposed to do?

47:51 It's true.

47:52 But can I say this? My nanny of, I don't know how long we've had Laura. She just, she's on maternity leave. She just had a baby and she's British. And in England, they have a school you go to, to learn to be a nanny. It's a two year. Really? Like school where they learn. about sickness about all the things developmental thing it's so impressive brilliant right i know so when she came and she also had had siblings um she was 24 when i met her which i didn't realize i was doing a play there so i was just like in desperate need of help right and she walked into my life thank thank everyone for her and now she's just had a baby she is not nervous It's impressive.

48:32 We need the class.

48:34 I know.

48:34 We all should. Maybe that should just be like mandatory for all people.

48:37 Wouldn't that be amazing? It's just a childhood care class.

48:40 How to take care of children.

48:41 I know, for men and women. Yeah, absolutely. Wouldn't that be great?

48:44 Yes.

48:45 Why don't we have that? I'll sign the campaign.

48:48 Somebody start it.

48:49 Definitely. I mean, look, we probably have some other things we need to deal with before that, but it would be great. It would be great. All right, we should stop talking because I'm going to go to areas that I should not go. But you're really fun, Joy. Thank you for joining us.