The Post-it That Ended It All with Jane Leeves... (S6 E6 "Hop, Skip, and a Week")

0:01 Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Hi, everyone.

0:09 Welcome back to Are You a Charlotte? Today, we have a really fun guest. It's Jane Leaves, who you may know from many, many, many shows. But she was on Frasier for 11 years, 11 seasons. And she has a new book coming out called Daphne and Me. And she has a lot of good memories and funny things to say. And we are going to rewatch Hop, Skip, and a Weak.

0:31 It is episode 606, written by Amy Harris and directed by Michael Engler.

0:36 And it is the post-it note. Da-da-da-da. Enjoy. All right, this is exciting. It's a very big episode, but also.

0:44 We have the incredible Jane Leaves, who has a bunch of things to tell us about, one of which is her book, which we have an early, early copy of, Daphne and Me.

0:52 Let's start with the book, because as we were talking about, I'm super fascinated by the process of writing a book. What was it like for you? And tell us what the book's about. It's terrifying. It was absolutely terrifying. I was approached to write it by a publishing company, and I said, no, no, sorry, I'm not that person. And my husband and my daughter said, Mom, if you want to write, if you write this, I will write it with you. How could I turn that down? Nice. My daughter, you know. Yes. And she's such a fantastic writer. So we set about doing it. And the hardest thing was because I didn't I wanted to have character and I wanted it to have style. And the hardest thing was finding that. And it was my daughter who found the

1:35 voice for it because she imitates me all the time. And so she actually found a sort of, it's a self-deprecating, because I'm English, but humor-driven book about 11 years, concentrated 11 years of my life where I found success. I got married and I had children. all in that time period. Amazing. So it was Frasier, your time on Frasier, which was a great, great show. Such a great show. And 11 seasons.

2:07 That's crazy. I don't remember it being that long. Yeah. Wow. It's, it's an incredible thing to look back on because, you know, as actors, we go from job to job to job and six years, if you're lucky, seven sometimes, but 11 years is a huge chunk of life to be with the same people day in, day out. Definitely. And it was, um, But it was an amazing experience for all of us.

2:30 You know, Kelsey was already known, but the four of us, David, Perry, John and myself, you know, it was a unique experience. And I spoke with Jesse Tyler Ferguson about this because he had the same experience where you're suddenly on a hit show. It took off immediately. You didn't have time to sort of go, well, it's building momentum and we're getting there. It was out of the gate, this major hit.

3:01 And the four of us, you know, we were lucky enough on our show to have a green room, which actors have, you know, in theatre and what have you, a place where we can congregate. And we used to spend all our time in that green room and go through everything that we went through together. And guest casts would come in. And that was sort of important for me to sort of have a chapter about that, about how important it was to have this concentrated space where we went through births, deaths, marriages together. And also guest stars would come in. We'd have the most amazing guest stars from James Earl Jones to people like Buzz Aldrin, Elvis Costello. Wow. And they sort of all There was something magical about that space where they sort of felt

3:47 at the ease to open up. That's wonderful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a really, really life-changing experience. The thing that I think is interesting to think about separate from.

3:58 it being a kind of a magical space that you guys created, this is in the days of.

4:03 Network TV, right? So like, this is important for our listeners who, some of whom are maybe our age and some are younger. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Back in the olden days we had, you know, it was a proper sitcom where you guys were performing once a week in front of an audience. Correct. Yeah.

4:17 And so when you say a green room, you mean like a place where everyone could get together, not everyone in their trailers.

4:23 Right. So it was kind of, a more communal... Absolutely. We didn't have trailers. We inherited the soundstage from Cheers, our predecessor. And we had... There were six little dressing rooms in a corridor... Two bathrooms at the end and this green room. And that was it. And I mean, not once did any of us say, I want a nice trailer. Yeah. But it would have changed the whole experience for us, I think. Definitely, definitely. But you really got to know each other because we were forced into this.

4:52 You know, the dressing rooms were tiny with little cardboard walls in between them. Right. So the only space we had was that green room, really. Right, which is fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah. And also, as we were talking about earlier, we... The cell phone wasn't really a factor then. Right. So, I mean, because if you think about it now, people may sit in that green room, but they probably be looking at their phones and scrolling. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I mean, I feel like it's both like.

5:19 Like, you know, if you're on a regular set with trailers, right, then you have your chairs at Video Village and you're probably sitting around there and.

5:26 Then people have their phones. But then I find a lot of times, depending on.

5:30 The set and who's there and whatever, right, I do feel like people want to talk.

5:34 Like, you know what I'm saying? So at a certain point, I feel like the phones come down. They do, yeah. And sometimes there's something.

5:40 I know when we were working on And Just Like That, there would be things that would happen, but then we would all talk about them, right? So you might see something happen on the phone, but then everyone would discuss, which I think is kind of what we're missing.

5:51 We need those conversations. it's that, you know, experiences to be together. Absolutely. Absolutely. And especially as actors, you know, that human connection is vital. Yes. Yes. So true. So true.

6:04 So in the process of writing the book, were you more thinking about kind of illuminating what it was like to be a part of Frasier?

6:13 Yeah. Got it. Yeah. That was what the publishers were interested in. And so I just started doing that immediately. But then they said, no, we want to hear about your personal experience, what it was like for you. It has to be more personal. Of course it does. But it was my daughter who really, really helped me do that because I'm a really private person and I don't really go anywhere or do anything. And so it took her to sort of pull stuff out of me. So, but it was such a great, it was great because now she's, You know, your kids are always your kids and you love them. And you can't really be their friend when they're young. But now I like to call her my best friend. That's nice. Which is lovely. I mean,

7:00 she's still my baby, but she's also my best friend now. Because she's an adult. Yeah. And I think we've gained a greater understanding of each other through doing this. Of course.

7:11 Because, so you were single when you got the show and then you met your husband during the show. You got married, then you had her and your son.

7:17 Yes, and my son. Oh, okay.

7:18 So that's amazing for her to get to relive that with you through the process of writing the book, because how would she ever know all these details?

7:25 You probably would not have any reason to be telling her all these stories, right? And telling her stories about how I met her dad and what it was like in the first date and how soon we moved in together and all that stuff. That's so cute. How old is she? She's 25. Oh, that's perfect. And so she was already writing. She was a writer. Amazing. What a great experience. It was incredible. Yeah. And we, I, I just, um, I'm so glad she pressured me to do this because it really has, um, it's sort of informed our future relationship, I think. And we tell each other everything now. So I do think sometimes children can like push us in ways where we might not even think of going. Oh, absolutely.

8:06 You know? Yeah. It's really interesting. It is. I think that, Her understanding of me now, because she wrote the foreword and she said, you know, I was always trying to prove your incompetence. That's interesting. Wow. It just takes it to a different level. It does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really does.

8:26 That kind of introspection on both of your parts and then also for the relationship. But also I just think it's so interesting to be able to share who you were before you were a mother with your children.

8:38 Oh, yes. And she, you know, I never sort of dwelt on my past with her, but she saw the struggles I went through. And, you know, I went to an all-girls school, a boarding school, and it was brutal. Oh. Oh, yeah. I mean, I talk about it in the book. Interesting. I was studying to be a ballerina and, you know, I had teachers throw ashtrays at me and, you know, It was crazy.

9:03 Listen, sometimes I think about the things we all went through, and now you're like, our kids would.

9:08 Never. Never. Never. Yeah. But she couldn't believe this was allowed. Definitely. Did you tell your mom? No, I didn't tell my mom. Oh, definitely. We have similar situations, yeah. It didn't enter our minds to go tell people. No, no. Right? We thought, oh, gosh, I'm so... incompetent. That's why the ashtray was hurled in my direction. Right. And the teacher, when I duck, she said, don't duck. And that's an actually just let it hit me straight on. Also ashtray smoking while she was teaching a ballet class. Oh my God. Yeah. Well, I mean, it probably really set you up well for a business, right?

9:50 Like hearing no, isn't necessarily that hard after you've had big, I.

9:55 Think that's checked at you. Yeah. I think that's it. Interesting. Interesting. So when you like, and I mean, I.

10:02 Know this is a weird question, but I go through this about sex in the city. You know, you never know when something's going to hit.

10:09 Right. You never know what you're going to be a part of, if it's going to work, if it's not going to work, if you're going to have a great experience and maybe it doesn't work. Do you know what I mean? You never know. Right.

10:17 And I mean, I feel like Frazier had these incredible, you know, uh, it was a spinoff of Cheers, which was an incredible show. And you had Kelsey Grammar, who was very well known playing the very much beloved character. But did you, did you really have a sense when it began that it was going to be just this like canon?

10:34 Yeah, you did. It was magical. It was magical from the start. I think what was so great was that we walked it, you know, Cheers left, we inherited their crew, their director, a few of the writers, you know, um, We just walked into this well-oiled machine already. Yeah, that doesn't happen. And I credit Jimmy Burrows as well. The great, great Jimmy Burrows. Yeah. He just had a way of building confidence in you and building confidence in the writers and the producers. Definitely. You know, he just, anybody who worked on a set with Jimmy was empowered. Yes, absolutely.

11:17 From the wardrobe to the lighting to, you know. No, he really was.

11:19 Also because he was such a confident leader. Like he just had that ease, that confident ease. Not like a pushy leader. Just like everything's great. You've got this, you know, like I did. He was doing Will and Grace and I was a guest star on there.

11:38 And I knew him. Yeah, I knew him, but I had never worked for him. So it was so nice to experience the magic, you know, and I was so nervous because we didn't perform in front of an audience. Right.

11:50 And that's partly why I wanted to do it because I felt like this is kind of a very, very specific thing to do a show. truly old fashioned sitcom where the cameras are moving around and you're not really moving around that much.

12:02 But the speed with which he does everything. Yes. You have to be on it. Right. But then he would sometimes tell me to slow down. Oh, really? Yes.

12:10 Like in his way where he would go like, wait, three beats here. And then a magical laugh would happen. And you would just be like, how does he know?

12:18 Right. Yeah. How does he know? But that's the thing. It's like he gives you all these skills and he makes you think you've come up with it, you know? Definitely. It was just amazing. Definitely. And was he there the whole time? No. Okay. He did most of the first season. Amazing. And then he said, you don't need me anymore. Yeah.

12:36 And he was off, you know. Right, right, right. I mean, he, he helped so many of us on so many shows. So many. That was the joy of Jimmy. You look at the legacy he's left behind. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. It's incredible. Did you watch the comeback? Did you see him acting on the comeback? I did. It was, it was like nice and painful at the same time. Yeah. Yeah.

12:54 I'm so happy Michael got him to do that though. Oh, it was a wonderful thing. Yeah. He and Lisa spoke at Jimmy's memorial about, about him and it was so funny and, Yeah. Yeah. His memorial was so funny, just really funny and uplifting. Perfect. And you just looked around and you just saw these fabulous actors and comedians and crews that he worked with. Wow, wow. You know, and he touched so many lives. Absolutely. So many lives. Oh, absolutely.

13:24 And he changed the way... Most people in that area of comedy work now. I agree. What was great about him was he encouraged discussion. Yeah. Was that your experience with him? Oh, for sure. I mean, when I was there, it was... there wasn't that much need for discussion. It was kind of later in the show. Right. So everyone was really confident and he set everybody up. He was there a lot. Right.

13:50 Um, I think there was some drama with the writers when I was there, the head writers, I think had been pushed out. It was like some crazy thing was going on where I was just like, what is happening? But because he's so calm, you were just like, well, Jimmy's got it.

14:03 You know what I mean? Like he's, he's, you just do whatever he says and you'll be fine. Yeah. Our creators said that, um, You know, they'd previously worked on a sitcom, The Jeffersons, I think it was. And when they were brought over to Cheers to be writers, they were watching a run through rehearsal and the writer went over to Jimmy and said, Woody, I have a question for Woody. Could you ask him? And he says, standing right there, honey, tell him yourself. But he encouraged that open dialogue between the actors, the writers, all departments. And it made it so creative. Right. You didn't feel like your voice wasn't heard. You had a voice. Every single creative person had a voice.

14:48 Well, that is one thing I had noticed when I went and did Friends, because Friends, at the point that also later in the show when I did a guest star on Friends, they had, I want to say, 10 writers, like so many writers.

14:59 So many writers, yeah.

15:01 And it was very much that there was like an actor camp and a writer's camp in kind of an old school way, right? Whereas like on Sex and the City, Michael made it that every writer, like whoever's show it was, they were there all the time.

15:12 Yeah.

15:13 Because it wasn't, you know, the official sitcom way to... film weaver single camera and so we all knew the writers anyway and they were always around and then the one who wrote it was there and you know very much a part of Every scene.

15:26 And if you had questions. They were there. Absolutely. Absolutely. And even before, like if we did the read-through and then we had questions, you know, it was like a process. They were part of the process. But doesn't that sort of invite creativity? Absolutely. Because an actor can say to a writer, I'm not sure I understand. Oh, I understand it now. Or the writer can go, oh, that's a great idea. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely.

15:47 And I think it was very, you know, like not necessarily the case in the olden days that there was that free.

15:54 Definitely not. Definitely not. Let's talk again about the book just so I'm sure I've got all the details. When does it come out? October 20th. Awesome. Awesome.

16:15 And are you just going to do like, like a whole press tour?

16:17 What do you do? I've got the book tour. I think we're on a plane every day for like six days or something, you know, you just go from city to city. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to sort of meeting, um, you know, the Frasier fans who I'm hoping will buy the book, but It's really nice when you meet people who love your show. Absolutely. I'm sure you know that when they come up to you and they say, I don't mean to bother you, but I just want to say it. And I'm like, you're not bothering me. I love to hear that. That's nice. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

16:46 I think also for the Frasier fans, I feel like my parents were massive, massive Frasier fans, you know, and just huge Cheers fans and Kelsey fans and all of the above.

16:55 You know, I feel like sometimes... I feel like the world has moved so quickly.

17:00 You know, we're now in this crazy streaming world where people are lucky if they get three seasons.

17:05 Yes.

17:05 You know, so it's just a very, very different world. And I feel like our world that we started in, you know, meaning like how it used to be structured and that you could be a fan for a long time and people miss that.

17:18 Yeah, I think so. I think it's just, you know, the... just so much to watch now there's too much yeah sort of the talent pool has been stretched to its limits um Yeah, and there's something sort of comforting about having your show that you watch every week. Yes, it's a connection. And a connection, and the family would sit around and watch. Yes, yes. I think people miss that.

17:40 I think so, absolutely. Because everybody's off in their different rooms watching their thing. I know. What are we going to do? I know, bring them back together. Right? Yeah. I mean, there's just so few shows that you can do that with now. Yeah.

17:51 I mean, in general, but also now, I don't even know. Like, it would be really hard to find a show that my son, my daughter, and I all like.

17:58 All like, yeah. I mean.

18:00 Movies, I feel like there are more and that's why the family movies do so well at the theaters. And then they're always like surprised.

18:06 And I'm like, we need something people. I need something to take the kids to.

18:11 Let's talk about this particular episode of Sexy City, which is a trip and a half, man. We are finally at a hop, skip and a week. which is also like the weirdest title like sometimes I'm.

18:22 Like what were we thinking with our titles it's a great title though you like it yes I do okay good I mean it's super it's super interesting and she does say it or whatever in the voiceover and this is the episode I mean it's directed by Michael Engler written by Amy Harris we had Amy on and I feel like we talked a little bit about I think this was her second script I want to say that she had her name out by herself yeah really she'd been around for a long time she was Darren's assistant when we started Wow. Yeah.

18:50 And he really was her big, you know, mentor. And then he when he left, Michael Patrick was like, yes, Amy, you have to write a script by yourself.

19:00 You're ready. Do it. And she talked about how the first one she wrote that she just cried for like a week, like funny things that you would never, never know or think about, you know. Just the stress of it all and trying to be responsible. And finally having the opportunity as well. Yes, yes, yes. It's a lot.

19:17 It's a lot. A lot for a young writer. And this is a big episode. It's a huge episode. I mean, so much happens.

19:23 And the thing, whenever we do talk to one of our writers, because at this point I think we had six women writers and Michael Patrick.

19:29 Oh, wow. Right.

19:30 Michael is the one that people are usually aware of. And so it's been really great to have the women on and hear them talk about it. I worked with Michael Patrick. He was on Murphy Brown, I think.

19:38 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, he's so great. He's so great, of course.

19:42 And he ran a really, you know, he runs a tight ship, like in the olden days, but also like a very... um, he's promoting people and bringing people along the whole, the whole way, which is so nice.

19:55 Yeah. And they're all still good friends and we all see each other. It's amazing. Yeah. Are you friends with your writers? These are them. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all of your writers. Yeah. We, we, you're, I still see casting directors, writers. That's nice. It's lovely. That's nice. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, we all just work together, you know. Yes. Yes. So yes. Yes.

20:15 All good friends. That's fantastic. I know. It was really nice. All right, so what, did you watch Sex and the City back in the day? Oh, yeah. What was your, okay. Yeah. Okay. One that hit me particularly was the one where Miranda's mom died. Yeah, my motherboard myself. That's a great episode. That's such a beautiful episode, yeah. Great episode.

20:31 That was our two writers who write together, Julie and Elisa, that was their first script.

20:35 Wow. Yeah. for us isn't that insane.

20:38 Insane i know michael patrick went to them and said i i think you need to write miranda's mom's death and they were like.

20:45 What well he said you can do it i mean that had such depth to it.

20:48 Right they're great writers they're great writers they were on and just like that yeah yeah they're lovely lovely people and this.

20:54 Episode as well you know there's one moment in there that You are breathtaking. Thank you. It's when you see Harry for the first time. It looks like a 1940s movie shot, you know, when you see your face. It was so beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was very stressful. It was? I remember. Yeah. Why? Because Michael Engler, the director....

21:21 Tell me if you've ever had this experience yourself as an actress. So we were in rehearsal and we were shooting in a location and it was very dark. It had no windows. It was like a basement or something. In a synagogue, maybe it was something so like not beautiful, right?

21:37 But they were going to try to make it look better.

21:39 So, you know, when you get to a location and there's a lot of like stress and hurry, scurry, trying to make it look better.

21:44 So we're in the rehearsal and I knew this was very important, right?

21:47 Because I mean, Michael would always include us and talk about the whole arc and, you know, this is going to happen and this is going to happen. So I'd had it in my head, right, that we were going to have the breakup and that then we were going to have this.

21:56 And it was, you know, I'd had a while to work on it.

21:59 So I had a really deep, you know, emotional thing I'd been working on because Charlotte had been so mean to Harry when they break up, like really said things she should never, never.

22:13 Never have said. Right.

22:14 And has to kind of live in that, you know, for a while and the, you know, deep regret and sorrow for being so mean to him, you know, even though he wasn't perfect himself, but she didn't have to be how she was, you know? So I had really worked hard on it. So we're in rehearsal and, And Michael Engler said to me in rehearsal, they're scurrying around trying to get stuff. And he's talking about how he's going to move the camera where like, cause they say the two women are saying like.

22:43 The, yeah, the good looking guy left. There's just the fat. Right. Exactly.

22:48 So that he's moving the camera during then. And so then he goes, um, so Kristen show me, you know what you're going to do.

22:55 And I was like, um, what can't really, can't really show you right now what I'm going to do. I'm just going to save it. And he goes, no, no, no. I need to see it. I know. I know. So I was stressing just like your face just now. So I was like, because I.

23:10 Really needed to protect it. You know, when you're trying to protect it.

23:15 And you know yourself as an actor. Say, don't make me do this. Exactly. You'll regret it. That's what I said. You know yourself as an actor. Exactly. So then I go to my trailer. There's a knock at the door. Open the door. And it's Michael and Amy, the writer. And she's just standing there. She doesn't know what to do.

23:31 And they're like, you know, you need to show us. And I'm like, in the trailer? I said, you got to trust me. You got to trust me.

23:38 So then I had to like hide till it was time. Like I went to the makeup trailer.

23:43 Do you know what I mean? Like I was trying to hide to like protect. Because you know yourself, you know, and at that point I was pretty confident that I had it, but I wasn't going to have it if I had to keep showing them leading up to cameras rolling, you know? No, that's a magical moment. And you say that.

23:59 And here's the thing, Jimmy Burroughs, If we did a, you know, if we had, I remember having this really emotional scene with Niles. It may not have been Jimmy. It was someone. And they said, right, we don't need to see that until we shoot it. Nice. Nice. That's. them understanding because all you're trying to do is recreate it right you're trying to you're not living in that moment right you're trying to recreate that moment that's right that's right so your instincts were you know right and.

24:26 I'm so glad i followed them i was scared because i'm usually a really good girl and i do what they want.

24:30 But you see i picked it out and i yeah yeah yeah totally i was it was visceral. Yeah. Yeah.

24:36 And I mean, I'm so happy with that. You know, it's one of those times where you're like, thank God I listened to my instincts.

24:42 Right. And I had the confidence to do that. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely.

24:46 But I remember being so stressed about it, you know, but also really like as an actor, when you know that you're going to have an opportunity to do a good emotional scene, that's important to the arc, you know, so important to Charlotte, right. You want to be able to really be there and be present to all of it and Thank God it worked.

25:04 And a good director, you know, will understand that. Right. I mean, yeah, whatever. I don't know what's up with him, but whatever. No, Jimmy would like, if we were over-rehearsing something, he'd come up and bat us on the head and say, leave it alone. No way. Save something for the audience. I love that. Yeah. That was... Something I learned from him is, like, if it's there, don't mess with it.

25:29 Leave it alone. Amazing. Go away. Do you mean, like, if you were, like, getting hair and makeup and running it or, like, casually? No, I remember it was Niles and Daphne meeting each other for the first time. And Jimmy works at lightning pace. You know, you rehearse the scene once and the moving on. And then David and I went off into a corner and said, what if?

25:47 And we were fiddling around. And Jimmy came up and said, leave it alone. Oh, interesting.

25:50 Leave it alone.

25:51 Interesting. Interesting. But he always wanted us to have something... to discover when the studio audience were present. Right. It was alive. Alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so cool.

26:03 That also makes it so exciting as an actor when you're actually rolling and the audience is there.

26:09 It makes it alive. It changes everything. It informs you. Oh, they think that's funny? Oh, okay. Yeah. Right.

26:14 That's the great part of a sitcom is you get that immediate response.

26:18 Yeah.

26:19 And then, uh, when I did Will and Grace, Michael Patrick came to do like the punch up on the floor, you know, there were, and there were a bunch of writers and it was so cool because you've, you've.

26:29 Rehearsed and you've learned all your lines and everything, but then they'll just throw something new at you. Did you guys do that at Frasier? Really fun. In the middle of filming, they go, Oh, wait a minute. Play this. Yeah. Try this. Love that. Yeah. Love that so much.

26:41 And I just think there's not that many people who know how to do that as a writer and actors as well.

26:46 And I don't even know now.

26:47 I mean, I heard that sitcoms are kind of coming back or something, something, hopefully. I mean, I hope there's enough of us around that still know how to do it.

26:55 And we'd love to do it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, that is something because it's like watching, even though it's not live on TV, it is live there and then. And so you get that, you get the feeling, you get the energy of that, you know, when you watch it. Definitely, definitely, definitely. All right, let's talk about Sex and the City, which was not live, okay? Though it was alive, definitely, but it wasn't live.

27:29 The thing that's really the most fascinating, I had not remembered the Post-it. Now, the Post-it lives on, obviously. But I had not remembered how they get to the Post-it.

27:40 And I didn't think it was coming in this episode. And then I was like, oh, my God, it's here.

27:44 But then the next episode, I think she takes it and shows it to us, which is what I had somehow remembered more of. I didn't remember how it all went down at the very end when you least expect it.

27:55 Yeah, and I always thought maybe that's not from him. Maybe it's something he was writing. I kept thinking, that can't be. No, me too. Me too.

28:03 And even though I know that it is him, I know it is him, and I know it's coming, but I was.

28:08 Like, no, look, they're making up. And then you're like, oh, no, and he brought other pink carnations.

28:13 But I knew in my mind I had a negative association with the pink carnations.

28:17 Because then she hits them. It's so good.

28:20 I know I'm to the end of the episode, you guys, but I was obviously really surprised because I didn't think the Post-it was coming. I thought the Post-it was not in Amy's episode. I'm so confused now about.

28:30 Because I think this author, Liz Tichillo, wrote it. The Post-it does come up in the next episode. It comes back. Okay, got it, got it. I think the next episode must be Liz Tichillo's. She has a new show called... It's called... What is it called? It's got... Hold on. It's got... Oh, an actor I love so much. I can't remember his name.

28:48 It's on Hulu and Fox, I think. It's called The Best Medicine.

28:52 It's a new show. That's based on that English show. What is that? Doc Martin. Oh, I didn't know this. Yes. Well, cool. Josh Charles. Josh Charles. Yes. He's so great. He's so great. Abigail Spencer. It's adorable.

29:07 And so that's Liz Tichillo's show, who was our final writer that we added. towards this season, which is season six. So almost at the end of the show.

29:16 Did you know it was the final season when you were doing it? Yes, yes, we did. We did.

29:20 I was in some denial though. You know, I kept saying like, why, why, why? But I didn't know that we were going to, well, we, we were supposed to do a movie and, but it wasn't definite. And so I was very hopeful that we would do the movie, which is the only reason I got through ending because and but then it took a number of years but then we did do the movie then we did a second movie then we did it just like that so it's all worked out it all works out perfectly yes yes but at the time sarah had just had her first child cynthia had had another child And I think that the, I'm wanting to have Michael Patrick back on to discuss, but I think that writing a weekly show and not that we were weekly in the way that

30:01 you guys were, Frasier was weekly or sitcom is weekly, but just writing a show is so hard and keeping the quality, you know, where you want it.

30:10 Oh, Unbelievably. My hat is off to these people. Absolutely. That is all the work. That is the work.

30:17 Absolutely. And like the weight of the responsibility. And he, at the time, because I went to him privately.

30:23 I was like... maybe you don't you know.

30:27 Because i felt like they could just like i just felt like they could just do anything you know what i mean and if they wanted to they could keep going but i think he felt that he you know they just wanted the quality to stay up where it was where it had been and the pressure of all of that and keeping it going keeping all the fans happy and you know it's a lot and then also just production in new york was so hard you know i'm sure expensive Super expensive, though we were making a lot of money for HBO, so it was fine. But, you know, yeah, for sure, it's an expensive thing. That was definitely a big part.

31:00 That must have been challenging, shooting in New York. It is, it is. It still is, you know what I mean?

31:05 And I think when we did do And Just Like That, one of the stresses was that Michael Patrick always feels like, and Sarah Jessica both, that the fans are expecting this glorious version of New York. So we needed to shoot at the ballet, right?

31:21 That was a very expensive location. Like we just couldn't, it.

31:25 Got to a point where you're just having to almost top yourself in terms of the beauty and the glory and the locations and the clothes and the this and the that. And it gets to be just, And I think we were 20 million an episode at that point.

31:41 Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a lot, obviously. That is a lot. In these days and ages.

31:46 And then they had the pit where they were like, I don't know what they've got it down to, but it's, they've got the cost down, which, you know, it's still brilliant, brilliant show.

31:53 Yeah. Right. Just a different type of show. Different type of show. Yeah. And also locations and, and what I did a medical drama of five years. And, and the great thing was I was so happy. wearing scrubs every day it was like i can't imagine it was like get out of your pajamas and put on some pajamas amazing and i was so thrilled to work and put on and you know they have sets yeah you're not on location everywhere yeah occasionally you will go on location but it's contained yes so I've never really been on one of those. Not ongoingly. You know, I can only imagine.

32:31 It must be also somewhat like, I guess it just really puts the focus on the work, right? Because you've got to kind of generate the newness or excitement or.

32:41 Whatever it is. Which is the jeopardy. Yes, the jeopardy. The medical shows. Oh, my God. The blood and the gore. The blood and the gore. I've never had to do that, and I'm really glad. Though, you know, I'm open. I'm open to being a doctor. Sure, why not? All right, let's discuss Berger. What do you think of Berger? Insecure.

32:59 People have a lot of feelings. Insecure. Yes. Just completely. I know that guy. He's insecure. You can't say one thing that he will, that wouldn't even be about him and he'd make it about him. Well, when she asked him if you're going to write at the beginning and he goes off on a thing. Yeah. That's not good. Yeah.

33:18 That's not good. Yeah. No, no red flags everywhere with that guy. Yeah. Red flags. I dated someone like that once for five minutes. Yeah. Did you? And I made a comment about his hands or something and he goes, what's that supposed to mean? And I'm like, I'm just, your hands are very nice. But I still, to this day, don't know what he was inferring from that. Maybe it was a size thing. I don't know. I don't know.

33:46 But it was just so insecure. And, and, and we'd go out and he'd say, I saw you looking at that guy. And I'm like, what? Are you kidding? Yeah. And I'm like, well, that is just insulting to me, you know, but I think it's, I think when you see Berger, you see that sort of insecurity. I don't think he could ever find, happiness, because he'd always be questioning every single comment out of your mouth, everything, you know. Yeah.

34:12 I do know. It's interesting. I feel like I have not seen these episodes. Like, I know I have, but I... it's uncomfortable yeah it's uncomfortable and when um you're you know you've had that the bad day and you go and sit and have dinner with them and he starts you know and you he bought me carnations and i know and then he's like men can't win yeah i know it's awkward yeah it's awkward i hadn't remembered that either it doesn't he doesn't understand women that's what i I agree. I agree.

34:45 And the interesting thing is that earlier in the relationship, he goes out when she's introducing all of us to him. And this is when he tells Miranda, he's just not that into you. And because we're asking, how's your date going? She's like, I think it went well, but he didn't come up and he said he had to work or whatever.

35:01 And we all think, well, we're like, that's so mean that he's just not that into you.

35:06 But then on the other hand, Miranda likes it. Right. Because she feels like it's kind of cutting.

35:10 Through the overthinking thing that women sometimes do trying to analyze their behavior or whatever. But then you think back on it and you're like, that's kind of his whole relationship to women.

35:23 Right. It's like. He's looking for, it's almost like he's looking for trouble. He's looking for clues. You know, instead of like getting to know the person and connecting, he's just looking for What does that mean? It's interesting because it makes me think about the fact that he's a writer too. And the thing that I like about the relationship with Carrie, the only thing I like is the fact that they're both writers and they can have in the beginning this kind of repartee about words and things, right?

35:53 But then also he's kind of looking underneath everything in a way that you would think a writer might, but it's like a cynical look underneath, not a kind of generous look underneath. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. So he's not really generous about like.

36:09 maybe, you know, Charlotte doesn't like carnations, but she still loved Harry. Because at one point I say, you know, Harry was bald and fat, but I still loved him or whatever. I don't want to say those words, but you know what I'm saying? I say whatever he didn't.

36:21 He's bald and he eats with his mouth open. Right, right. Full, full. He talks with his mouth open. Right, right, right. Which he did do a lot of in the beginning, which I remember him, Evan, being just so funny with. Yeah, so funny.

36:32 But it's interesting to watch the two of them. And it's like, I can't even believe how hard they try. Do you know what I mean?

36:39 Like I'm like, Carrie, oh Lord. You just say, don't give up. Totally. Get rid of him. Definitely. I'm very much like that. I don't, I was very pragmatic always about relationships. I would just go, no, that's not going to work. Bye-bye. Somehow it sounds better with your accent. But I think it's because I was in, you know, I was a struggling actress. I was just like, you know, surviving.

37:06 I was trying to survive and I didn't have space for that in my life. It was just like, no, sorry, bye-bye. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I was never really like that. I wish I was like that. I wish I was like that. And I do think it's interesting.

37:19 I mean, the one thing I like about it is it's such a different side of Carrie.

37:23 Yes. That you're seeing her make this effort. Yeah.

37:26 And I think that that's great to try something different and to really hang in there.

37:30 But also I'm like, oh man. The pain on her face. The pain on her face. Totally. When he breaks up with her in the cab, you know, well not breaks up, says we need a break. When he's like weird. It's just weird. It's very weird. It's very blunt and bye bye, you know.

37:42 And also it's very like, she says, well, shouldn't we go upstairs and talk about it? And he's like, no, I don't need to talk about it.

37:47 Which is like, oh. See, that's shutting a person out of your emotional life as well. Right. Right.

37:52 No, I don't think he really ever opened up to her about his emotional life.

37:56 I think that's the point. Did he have one? See, I'm... Is he even in touch with himself? Yes, exactly. I think is the major question.

38:05 And if you think about Aiden and you think about Big, neither of whom is perfect, right? There is at least, even with Big in the early years, there's something underneath.

38:15 They're aware of themselves. Yes. And they have an emotional life underneath. Yes, yes, yes. Even Big, and that's saying a lot. Yeah, that's saying a lot, yeah. It's really interesting. Yeah, with Bergen, you just got the feeling that there wasn't much of an emotional life. It was just struggling, struggling to...

38:35 to be himself. There's just a dark, there's a, it's dark. There's something dark in there. You don't want to be in there. No, sorry. I know.

38:44 I know. I, I, it's also so interesting to me because as much as the post it lives on is like a thing, like my daughter has a gift actually from our producer of the podcast. It's a sweatshirt that on the back says, I can't don't hate me, which is really funny. And people laugh when they see it because it's such a teen kind of a thing to say.

39:02 Right. Um, it makes sense. but it's so um watching it play out on the show.

39:08 Is so much worse yeah than i really had any memory of it's almost.

39:13 Like there was no you know it's almost like he hadn't emotionally grown since being an adolescent or a teenager you know yeah.

39:23 Totally but i need to find out who they wrote this about too because.

39:26 Someone was having a relationship This must have been modeled on someone. Right? Yeah, because it's so precise.

39:31 Right.

39:32 But also I.

39:32 Think they've just kept it to themselves this whole time because a lot of the other people I know who it was modeled on... This I do not know and I really need to know now because, man.

39:41 Did that happen a lot where things came from people? Because it was really their lives. It wasn't our lives because that would also be very uncomfortable and weird.

39:49 But it was a lot of different things. They were all single women at the time, you know, living in New York, writing on.

39:55 The show, but also.

39:56 trying and sometimes some some of the success issues that burger and carrie have i think were also them because here they are these like you know women in their 30s having this huge success yeah and that's got to be odd for other you know people trying to be in the same business or whatever men dating these women you know.

40:15 Yeah awkward and strange yeah so i like that i know because my when i met my husband he was he just started working as an executive at paramount and we met and it was immediate and And I loved him and, you know, but he said to me afterwards, he said, you know, I thought immediately she's an actress. I'm so boring. I'm going to have to go out and buy a motorbike and a new comforter, you know?

40:38 And I was like, me on a motorbike, are you insane? But he thought, you know, he thought that actresses needed someone, you know. I get it. I know the stereotype. So that, you know, that your writers probably experienced the same sort of thing, you know. Oh, definitely. With that successful woman. Like TV writer. Yeah. Oh, very successful woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Definitely.

40:59 Because Berger does have a whole motorcycle story. Yeah. Did you remember? No, I don't remember. Yeah, it was pretty funny.

41:05 And then he takes Carrie on it and she's not happy and it's not good.

41:09 So he's falling right into it, isn't he? He really is. The whole time.

41:15 I just think she's so cute how she tries. It's just a sweet side of Carrie.

41:20 There is a really sweet side to her in that. Yeah. It's the hope, the hopefulness, you know, before she descends into the darkness. Yeah. It's the hopefulness. And I think that's also why at the end, I mean, first of all, being broken up with on a post-it note is never okay, obviously. But second of all, that.

41:37 She's tried so hard, makes it so much more painful.

41:42 But also, thank God he's gone. And I can't wait to see next week and what all we're going to go through to process this or whatever. But I mean, thank the Lord. Oh, there were so many red flags along. Yeah. From the get go there was. So this is, let's, let's talk again about Charlotte.

41:57 So there's a little funny little thing in here in that, um, Mariska Hagartay's husband.

42:02 Yes. Yes.

42:04 And he also comes back on and just like that. And I remember it being so funny and people would say like, Oh, remember he was, um, on his, his name.

42:11 What's his name? Oh my God. I can't remember his name. Peter Herman. Peter Herman. Thank you so much. Excellent. Excellent job. Um, I had forgotten.

42:19 I knew he was in the mix of when I'm trying to date again and the moms at the synagogue are trying to fix me up with their sons. But I thought that I walked and talked with him. I didn't remember that he comes to the mixer and asks me if I want to go home and fuck.

42:33 And I'm like, no. No, thank you. It's so awkward. Your response to it was so funny. Was it? Yeah, because it was like, if somebody says that to me, I'll be like, no. But you were just like, um... No, I know. Well, Charlotte's been through a lot by this point in time. You know what I mean? That's true.

42:49 It did. It did seem a little bit like, um, Like everyone's asking you these questions. But it was almost like you were at the end of, you know, you've heard it all. I'm at the end of it. I've been out with every single doofus. Definitely. Most definitely. No, no. Definitely. It's not an exasperated, no. I know, it's funny. It's funny.

43:10 It really surprised me that that was Peter. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe that's what we had Peter do back in the day. I remember him being around. I remember him being on the set and I remember talking about Mariska. Yeah. I didn't remember that that's what we made him do. They lived two doors down from us when she was on a break. She was pregnant. Oh, yeah.

43:28 And they had their son. That's nice. It was so sweet. What a lovely family. I mean, thank God they're still together. It's nice. It's so nice. It's so beautiful. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, she's like doing so great. Wasn't she great on the Emmys? I did not watch, but I'm sure. She was great. Impressive. Very impressive. To be able to do that. She was full of glamour and class. I heard she changed her clothes a lot. I love that.

43:50 Why not? Why not? Give people a show. I would never do that. I'd be too lazy. I mean, I can't even imagine myself hosting. I think I would just die a million deaths from nerves. But sometimes it can distract you, you know. To put on a different frock. Definitely. Okay. I'll change your hair. Okay. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. I just be like, no, no, I don't have time for that. Concentrate, concentrate.

44:12 I can't put on another frock. No, that's true. That's true too. It does. I don't know. It does distract you in that way, but then sometimes that's a good thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. But I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm lazy with clothes. Are you? Oh, that's all right. Yeah. But that's why I can live through other people's looking great. But I'm shopping for clothes.

44:36 I don't like shopping. I don't. I think that they think that all actresses like shopping. And I don't know why. And especially, you must have that because of the show and the fashion. No, I do, but I don't. None of us shop. No? No.

44:47 I mean, I just think we've spent too many hours in fittings for it to be fun.

44:52 Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Like, I hate to shop.

44:54 I very rarely try anything on. I often regret that, right? I'm like, why didn't I try this on? I just walk in somewhere and buy it, or I'll buy it online.

45:02 I buy it online. Right. I buy a pair of jeans online. Right. Okay. jeans and definitely t-shirts I wear the same jeans every day and the same t-shirts well if this is your t-shirt it's very nice no this is not my t-shirt okay got it I've had this for about five six seven years very nice um but I wear their American vintage um the Jacksonville t-shirt okay I've got like thousands of them nice that's all I wear Listen, I'm the same. I just wear like a James Purse t-shirt. Yeah. What this is. Very nice. Yes.

45:33 Thank you so much. I know it's funny, the perception of actors versus how we really are. Yeah. Well, because when they see us in these roles and then whenever we're on a red carpet or something all glammed up, we didn't do any of that. that's a part of a job that's that's yeah somebody else did all that we hired them yes thank god you know what i mean these angels exist.

45:52 Thank god yes thank god for the angels yes all right let's talk about samantha because this is when we have the lovely smith boyfriend i mean he is so great he's so good looking so so good looking but also just so good with her yeah because he's so simple it's the perfect compliment.

46:10 There's a guileness to him you know definitely yeah I love the whole storyline. I had only vaguely remembered that they put the poster, which he told us was CGI, that they wouldn't let us actually put the poster up in Times Square because he was too naked, apparently. Oh, really? I know, pretty funny.

46:37 But I had totally forgotten the gays and the girls, and I'd forgotten that, like, he thinks that he's going to get some serious acting.

46:43 But then in the end, he does. He does, yeah. Which is so nice. That was a surprise because I always thought, oh, gosh, you know, this is going to crash and burn. Right. And destroy him and her. Right. And I love their.

46:54 I love the vibe between Samantha and Smith. Like she knows more than he does. He's also got his fears and his insecurities.

47:02 But he's really open about it. Like, is this really going to work? And she's like, trust me. And it's so nice. They have a very complimentary vibe. Like, you know, he's very, very.

47:12 Relaxed and chill, even though he's worried this isn't going to work. The way he goes about it is like pretty calm, you know? And the way she goes about her plan is pretty calm.

47:21 Yeah. And it's nice. And trusting. Yes. So trusting. Trusting. Yeah. Yes. It's really refreshing. It is. It is. So different for her. Such an important part of any relationship is trust. And you never really see her trust anybody. Like she was with the Richard person who was like this big wig, but she never trusted him. But then, you know, when she tells him, don't tell anyone you're in a relationship with him. Because he's single and it bites her, you know. Totally.

47:48 Totally bites her. It's so true. It's so true. Yeah, it's really interesting. And you can see she's far more invested than she would ever, ever, you know, admit to. Yes, yes. Yeah. Samantha's interesting. She's really interesting. Yeah. And it's interesting to rewatch because at the time.

48:04 you know, because of her boldness, that's what kind of the focus was always on was that she was, you know, unlike any other character and kind of like a man, but a woman and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

48:14 But when you look back, there's so much vulnerability, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And you see glimpses of it with this relationship, you know, not, not just when she says that, you know, don't, you know, don't tell anyone you're in a relationship. That's not what this is anyway, you know? Um, but when, um, When she doubts herself when they're at the bus stop looking at the poster and he's like this, you know. Yeah.

48:40 And she's not sure. And she makes the face. Yeah. The frowny face. She told Carrie not to make the face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see that she's not as, you know, sure about this. It's really sweet. It is sweet. Isn't that funny to say about Samantha? Exactly. It's sweet.

48:56 Yeah, no, it's really sweet. And I love them together so much. And who would ever have really realized that?

49:01 Like, it's interesting. All right.

49:03 Let's talk about Miranda because I'd also forgotten her storyline. And, you know, she has less screen time, but I think it's really interesting because it's basically the thing that I laughed a few times during this episode.

49:13 And one of the times was when, so after.

49:16 She goes in and, and they're, they, they say like, you've been late and you have been working that hard. And then she goes back to say, I've got to change this. You know, I've really got to cut back a lot to 50 hours.

49:27 I have 50 hours. Okay. 55. It's so cute and funny. How have we all been there? Oh my God. Yeah. We can never cut back though. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't. No. I mean, but, but the thing is that, You know, it just highlights the fact that we as women, we carry all the guilt about that. We carry all the guilt. You never see a man go to work and say, I feel so guilty about leaving the kids today. Oh, I know. You know? Oh, I know. I mean, it's societal.

49:57 I know. But we put it on ourselves because basically my husband was fantastic. And whenever I was working, he was at home. He just said, I'm going to be daddy. That's amazing. He said, this is the job I was born for anyway. I'm going to be dad. So it gave me the freedom. But still, still. Yeah. Yeah. The guilt. Listen.

50:12 The guilt. I'm with you. I mean, I'm a single mom, right? So I definitely have the guilt.

50:16 But also the thing that makes me laugh, and when I watch this storyline with Miranda, it really reminds me, I really felt like... physically that I shouldn't leave my child when she was a baby.

50:30 They don't know. Like, it's so funny. No, they don't. But you really don't feel that. Yes, you physically cannot let go of that child. My mother actually said to me once, I'm going to have to remove, have that child surgically removed from your arms. But you know what the great thing is that my husband said to me, he said, because I said, I missed certain things. And he said, but you know what? you showed them, you showed your kids that you can work. Totally. And they don't have those stereotypes in their minds now. Totally. No, I agree. I agree. My son and my daughter can see a woman can go to work and daddy can stay home, you know. Nice. Really nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:12 That's really nice. So I just keep telling myself that. No, it's good.

51:16 I mean, look, no one is there 100%, right? And then the other thing is that even if you are there, sometimes you can physically be there, but the stress makes it too hard to emotionally be there. There's so many different like subtleties within it. You know, we just do the best we can.

51:32 Yes. And it's enough. It's enough. It is. I also think like it's something kind of weird. Like you don't feel it at the time.

51:39 You feel like I've got to be there all the time and she's going to know somehow if it's not me putting her to bed, which is also like a weird thing. Like if you have a wonderful nanny or a, you know, you're like, my mom would come a lot when I, when my first daughter was, was little and, she loves her grandma. Like this is so important. It's so important for them to have bonds with other people.

51:59 But at the time you have so much pressure in the back.

52:01 Of your head about what you are or aren't doing. I just remember because my, I have two sisters, you know, and they had children, they raise their children. They were home all the time with them. And I felt embarrassed. I felt the first, when I first had my daughter, I was too embarrassed to get a nanny. See, isn't that crazy? Oh, my God. And I was exhausted all the time because my sisters didn't have names. Oh, my gosh.

52:27 I can't. I can't. I just can't. I can't keep doing this, you know. That's hard. That's really hard. It was really a stupid thing to do. I mean, because I was exhausted. I was exhausted all the time. It's impossible to do it alone like that, like by yourself. I mean, I never.

52:42 I think also because I was a single mom and also because I didn't have any siblings.

52:45 So I was very clueless. Right. And I really needed the baby nurse. You needed the help. You know, like an expert. Like I just needed an expert to teach me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be a single mom. My hat is off to you. Thanks. it's a remarkable thing to do. Thank you. That's nice.

53:02 It's hard to remember that even, even in it, even still in it.

53:06 You don't even, it's hard to remember.

53:07 Like you're just thinking about what you didn't do or what you didn't do right.

53:11 Or you don't even. Are they great kids? Of course. They're amazing kids. They're amazing kids. Yeah. But it's never done, right? Like you're never, you're never feeling like, shoof. You're just feeling like, Oh my God. Yeah.

53:23 Like, did she do all her homework or did she just think she did her homework? Like, do I need to get in there and look at her actual homework?

53:31 Like what level of attention is needed? You know, it's a lot. It is a lot. It's a lot. It's interesting. And to do it by yourself, as I say, it's remarkable. Thank you. It is what it is. Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, why did I think I could do this? Like, you know what I mean? It's a lot. It's a lot.

53:49 It is. It's the biggest thing in anyone's life. It's huge. To be responsible for humans. The responsibility part. Yeah. Yeah. And making sure that they're good people. Oh, yeah. All right. I have a question. I have a question for you. Oh, gosh. What? No. Are you a Charlotte, Jane? I am. Are you thinking? Yeah, because I think I'm a bit of a Charlotte, but I'm a bit of a Miranda. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

54:18 I could see that. Yeah. But you don't seem, Miranda sometimes can be like acerbic. No. You don't seem that way. No, no. Right. So I'm probably, I would say I'm 90% a Charlotte. Oh, lovely. And maybe 5% of a bit of Miranda. Got it. You know what's so great is there are traits in each of the characters that, You can identify. Absolutely. And that's what's so great about the show. Definitely. The writing.

54:49 That's why people can watch it and go, oh, that happened to me. Oh, I would do that. No, I wouldn't do that. Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good writing. Yeah, but no, I'm more of a Charlotte. I'm more sort of traditional. And there's a quiet strength to Charlotte, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely have that, yeah. There's a quiet, that's where her strength lies. Mm-hmm. And considered, you know. Definitely, definitely.

55:18 Very considered.

55:18 And that took a while even for her to grow into me, me slash her, whatever you want to say, right? And I think also Michael, with the writing and knowing me and really like growing her together, you know, with him, that's where she got.

55:34 To, which is really nice. Which is great. Yeah. And yeah, there's a, there's just, she knows what she wants. Yeah. She knows what she wants. Definitely. Definitely.

55:46 And she's willing to kind of do some introspection and learning and growing herself to get there, which I think is also really important. But that's also what I love about the burger storyline for Carrie. That's Carrie trying to grow.

55:57 Yeah. Right? Trying to stay in an awkward relationship. Because she thinks that it's different and it's wrong for her. Trying something different for her. And I respect that. And sticking with it. Yeah. Right. It maybe wasn't as fun. Something so heartbreaking about it. Exactly. It's so. Oh, my sweetheart, you tried.

56:11 I know, people criticize her so much, but I'm like, no, look at her trying so hard over there.

56:16 Yeah, she's been through the ringer with guys, and she's just this guy, and she's like, well, maybe. I could shift. Right. I could try. Right. You know. Yeah. Yeah. But then thank God he goes. Yes. Because you shouldn't. You shouldn't change yourself. Not to that extent. No. No. No. And also if it's not fun. No. Ew. And if you have to watch everything you say and think, oh, how is he going to take that? Oh, definitely not. No. Oh, no, definitely. Definitely, no. Definitely, definitely. Well, thank God. Jane is here for us with the post-it.

56:47 We are at the end of the burger. Reign of burger. Good riddance, burger. Yes, it's true. So sorry. So sorry, Ron. So sorry. You did a great job. You were great. By the way, the actor was great. Yes, Ron Livingston was great. Great, perfect casting. Really good. I've just put him through the wringer, haven't I? But it was such great acting.

57:05 Yeah, no, I mean, he plays the part. This is what the part was, right? This is our job, isn't it? Play the part without apology.

57:12 And judgment. We're the ones who judge the character. Right, exactly. It's for the viewer to judge. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. That's like acting lesson 101, right? Yeah, don't judge your character. It's true. Give over to it.

57:37 Of course, when we're in the scene, in the mixer, in the Jewish singles mixer, and Charlotte gives her tearful apology, which she should give to Harry for saying the mean things.

57:49 Yeah. And he adorably has come with a ring in his pocket. I know. So sweet. And he sort of, it's shades of Casablanca. He even sort of, you know, of all the, but, you know, that's why I say that brilliant shot of you, which you held on to. Thank you. It's so... There's something so, you just see everything in your face the minute you see him. And it's so beautiful. And then your apology to him. And I kept thinking, oh my God, he's got, he's married.

58:21 He's with someone. He's with someone. He's going to break her heart. He's going to break her heart. Oh, that would be terrible. But you see the look on his face, you know, where he's just so. Yes, he's so sweet. I know he's so sweet.

58:33 Evan was, he's a great, you know, acting partner.

58:36 Like he's very present. Yeah, it was, it was beautiful. And then I know that's the cutest thing. And I don't know that I had known.

58:45 I mean, obviously when I got the script I knew, but I don't know that they had told me that that was how he was going to propose.

58:51 Right. Because I think Charlotte's been through, like she proposed to herself with Trey. Right.

58:56 And then she has the scene before she gets angry with him over the Shabbat thing. dinner that she makes where she says to the girls, you know, I just know we're going to get married. And Miranda and Carrie are like, oh, are you sure you want to be assuming these?

59:10 Things?

59:10 Like, let's not assume these things. And she's like, no, I just know we will, which is also, you know, kind of taking it for granted, you know, in a weird and interesting way.

59:18 Yeah. Is it, though? I don't know. I'm not sure, really. It's so deeply rooted in your soul that this guy, you know. Right, right, right. That's true. That's true. You know, when I met my husband, I said, you know, I'm going to marry you, don't you? And this was only about three weeks after I'd met him. And he was like, oh, shut up. I'm supposed to surprise you. You know, but I think you see that in Charlotte. You see that she is something so... She just recognizes. Like she knows it.

59:45 She just knows it. And maybe she's afraid of it. And that's why she sabotages it. Well, that's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point.

59:51 Because I do think also she does have these expectations, right? And even though they've been kind of blown up by Trey, they're still there, you know? So maybe that was important for her in a way.

1:00:04 To blow it up. And to see that it would come back. To have it be real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:09 And it is just such a lovely, lovely way that he does it. You know, it's like, it's very sweet.

1:00:15 But I really did think he's going to say, oh, I can't do that. You did? Well, that was good acting on Evan's part then. Yeah, it was. But right up until that moment, I thought he was going to say, I'm with someone. I'm here with someone or something. I was just like, oh, you. I'm so glad he did. That would have been horrible. Awful. Horrible. Horrible. But it was great. Yeah. But the tension there, it was beautiful.

1:00:41 Thank God it all came together. Yes. You know, like it's one of those ones where you're like, didn't know, wasn't sure, but it worked. And then I love that the first shot of the next episode is this giant ring. You know, you flagging down a taxi. Oh, that's funny. Oh, I shouldn't skip ahead. No, that's okay. That's okay. They all know. Everyone listening knows. I'm the one who doesn't know.

1:01:03 Because at this point, I don't really remember the details, you know? We did 260 something episodes. Oh my gosh. I can't remember. Some of them I watch, I have no recollection of them. That's incredible. I don't, I'm like that with books. If I read a book and I think it's great, you ask me the next day what it was about and I'm like, oh, I can't really remember. Yep.

1:01:24 It happens. It does happen.

1:01:26 With me, I remember all the beginning. And then I, like, I think once we, like had a certain success. I was, it was like so much, do you know what I mean? All the extra work that you're doing, promoting and doing all the things.

1:01:38 And it was just a lot, you know? So I think I got overwhelmed and like life took on bigger stuff and the show was lesser stuff. Whereas it used to be that the show was everything. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's interesting though. It's interesting. And I just love that what we do lives on. Yes. Isn't that lovely? It's really nice. It's so great. Yeah. Have your kids watched any? No. No. Gemma, my 15-year-old, has seen bits and pieces on airplanes and stuff. I'm not really ready.

1:02:08 I mean, she's 15, and I feel like she could in terms of the content. But, like, it's weird because it's me.

1:02:13 Yes. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, my daughter, because she said, I tried to watch it, but it felt weird. It felt like I was a stalker. Right. She said, I don't want to watch it. So even writing the book, she didn't re-watch. Fascinating. She just listened to your stories. Listened to my stories. And we also interviewed, you know, our executive producers. Oh, cool. We interviewed so many people. That's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like me here.

1:02:38 So she got to hear stories from them too, which was great. That's really good.

1:02:42 My kids know Michael Patrick and Sarah and Cynthia and everything, which is nice and kind of gives up like a different level of, you know, knowledge to it.

1:02:50 Yeah. Yeah, I have to tell you. Tell me. Tell you this. When I went into audition for Frasier, there was only one other actress. Oh, my God. Yes. Tell me, Cynthia. Cynthia Nixon. This is crazy. And I looked at her and I was like, oh, shit. You knew who she was? Yes. Well, she had built her. The theater. The theater. She was known.

1:03:11 She was known. All the actors know her. Oh, God. Yeah. Everyone knew Cynthia Nixon. Got it. I was totally intimidated. Because I think of you guys as very different. Very different. Interesting. Very different. What year was that? It must have been 93, 94. Wow. Wow. Four years before we did our pilot. That's amazing. Yeah.

1:03:32 I mean, it was crazy, but I was so intimidated when I saw her sitting there. Oh, that's sweet. That's so sweet. Well, she is. Yes, I know. I know. I know. She's amazing. She's amazing for sure.

1:03:44 I thought I knew her from the theater and I had seen the real thing, which was when she was across the street from Hurley Burley, which she was also in, which is just so.

1:03:52 Insane to even think about.

1:03:55 And I, but I don't, I think I was like so intimidated from the theater, right?

1:04:03 Theater is like, Yeah. The be all and end all, right?

1:04:07 And I didn't talk to her a ton in the beginning, like just a little, like it took me a while, you know, where Sir Jessica was really like, come here, come in my trailer, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and Kim I had already met in Vancouver, I think. strangely I don't know why but she was she was there and I was there and you know everyone would go to that Sutton Place Hotel have you ever worked in Vancouver no I haven't everyone used to go to this one hotel we would all stay there and at like happy hour would be like.

1:04:34 Just actors just actors and directors and.

1:04:36 People exactly um that's where I met Kim the first time like maybe a year before I want to say something something like that and of course I knew her from mannequin really oh right yes because i had been a while before and had been such a big deal um but she seemed so different you know in life that i that was like she seemed really actory in a good way you know like easy yeah um but it was interesting because cynthia does just like an intimidating thing in in person in.

1:05:07 A way yeah i mean because i think it's a weight she carries as an actor as well you know it's like oh yes like there's she is committed and very serious about her craft it's true it's so true and you pick up on that yes magnificent yes yes i'm just an old fluff you know just an old hack me too me too anything for a laugh me.

1:05:33 Too me too yeah i think she's less like this now than she used to be in a way you know what i mean yes like over time you know you shift and change and get what bring different elements into your vibe or whatever.

1:05:46 Yeah. All right. You're a joy. You're a joy too. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Congratulations on Daphne and me. Thank you. Very exciting. I'm so excited for you.