Charlotte Takes the Plunge with Melanie Shatner... (S6 E3 "The Perfect Present")

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Welcome back, everybody. This is part two with one of my bestest, oldest friends in the world, Melanie Shatner-Gretsch. We are recapping The Perfect Present and just talking girlfriend stuff. All right, let's talk about the episode. The episode is called The Perfect Present, which is interesting.

We get into this very interesting phase of naming of the episodes, right? It's like kind of, Interesting esoteric titles we start getting into. And it is directed by David Frankel, directed both Devil Wears Part of One and Devil Wears.

Part of Two. Wow.

Yes. And had previously directed Miami Rhapsody, where Sarah Jessica works with Pat Field, who then she brings to us. Yeah. It's all connected to David Frankel. And Jenny Bix wrote Jenny Bix, who had breast cancer twice during our show. Wow. And was one of my first, you know, close, close friends to go through the whole, the whole situation. Yeah.

And she's doing great. So it's wonderful.

Yes, yes, yes.

And she was, I mean, so strong through the, like, wow. Because this was back. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is when we were doing the Revlon Walk, which is where they were studying tamoxifen. They were funding the research for tamoxifen. I know.

Isn't that incredible?

Isn't it? Yeah.

I support Susan G. Komen. I'm on their board.

And they are responsible for, like, I wish that I had the numbers on me. I never thought we'd talk about that. But, like, they're responsible for so much medication and medicine. There's some statistic like every single person who's had breast cancer has been impacted by the work they've done. Wow.

Like there's not a person in any country anywhere.

Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. That's wonderful to support them.

Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. Here we go. So in this episode, this is when we've got Berger, who's super interesting. It's a great storyline. Is it? Yes. You like it? Loved it. Tell me.

What do you love? Well, I love, well, this is like in the beginning, right? Where it's like, but then yet you, in this episode, you really see this guy. Something's wrong.

That's what I was waiting for.

I love the... I mean, I know, right?

So this is when he double flips off his ex-girlfriend on the answering machine. Yes. Which is really interesting. And there really are these little tells almost in every episode of Burger where you're like, something's off. But also he's got this writer... And writerly, you know, repartee with her and write and play. And, you know, she has kind of an intellectual match with him, which we haven't really seen. Yes. Right?

So I can see what the writers are doing. But also, I mean, also we know where it's going, right? But like every single episode, I'm like, oh, look at that.

Well, you know, you're so right.

Like if you look at it from like that bird's eye view, there's tells in every one.

Yep. Yeah, there really are. And then it.

Culminates in the.

It culminates in the post-it.

The post-it, which is like brilliant.

So brilliant.

It's a brilliant.

But the other thing that I love about it is that he also gives us the episode where he tells Miranda that her date just wasn't, he's not just, he's just not that into you. Which then spawns a book and a movie and whatnot. Because he's kind of a truth teller.

Right.

But he's also like not very worked out in his own stuff. Right. So he's insightful. Right. But not maybe about himself. Right. And he's also just probably not the best match for Carrie. But I also really like that she's trying. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I don't remember like at the time... I don't think that I thought objectively about any of it, right? We were just in it, you know? And I just thought it was great that we got Ron, you know, from Band of Brothers, which is how we originally knew him. And he was so different, obviously. But it's interesting. It's hard for me, when I'm watching, to invest in them. Maybe because I know where it's going. I'm not quite sure why.

I agree.

Yeah?

I agree. And yet I still love that little.

Because it's so compact.

But, like, I....

I still love the development for Carrie.

Yes. You know? Well, because we see her trying. And also he seems kind of normal. Like he is a writer and everything, but he's normal. Right. He's got an ex-girlfriend. He's got like this cute little apartment, kind of like her little apartment, but a guy version. Right. You know, like there's similarities and they seem comfortable. He's like the good on paper guy. Totally. He's a good on paper guy. Yeah. Yes, Melanie.

That's right. That's what it is. He's good on paper, and so she's in it, and you kind of feel like, yes, she should be in it. But then you're watching it, and you're like, something's not right. Something's not right. And this is the one where Big calls her. Right. And I have to say, I'm finally liking Big in my rewatch, because the first couple seasons, I was like, he's horrible.

I always liked him.

I mean, I liked him back in the day. Yeah. But then something about rewatching it from the lens of 2026... Right. You know, you're like, oh, he's so withholding. He's so this, he's so that. But I think that's what we were all used to.

But also, and I think because it's like, you're right, you know, the whole arc of him.

Right.

But that he was, but then he like. He changes. He changes. He does. And that's what you're seeing now that he's moved to Napa. He does seem hurt. Hurt and kind of slightly sad and a little bit more present. Yeah. And kind of adorable. Like you feel kind of bad for him. I felt bad for him when she tells him.

Yeah.

So first he calls her, but he's kind of ick also slightly when he's like, do you remember that red dress? But the thing that made me laugh is like the shot where she sits up straight in the bed. Yes. Totally.

Have you ever been in those situations?

Totally.

Yeah.

No. Yeah.

The phone sex thing.

Yeah. Where you're just like, hmm. Can we just pretend? Totally. And she does. Apparently that's what she does. She pretends. She phones in and he doesn't even know. But how embarrassing. Yeah, very embarrassing. But also, like, that's partly what I love about the show. And there's so many moments of it that you forget. But it's like a lens into something that you wouldn't normally see, you know? Right. Which is great.

And you feel like, oh, it didn't just happen to me.

Also, the beginning of the show where she sees his apartment for the first time. that was really relatable as well.

Like where you.

Go into someone's place and you just take in information.

Oh, absolutely. So much information. The only thing that bugs me about that one is that she walks up to that wall and she says she likes the color. And I'm sorry, she does not like that color. She's not like that color. It's a horrible pink color. It's so weird to me. Like, There must not have been time.

It must have been an actual apartment that we were filming in. I don't think it's a set. You know what I mean? Oh, that's interesting. Because the brick looks really real. Yeah, it does. As opposed to, like, he wasn't there that long that we would have built him a set, right? Right. So probably they couldn't change the paint color or whatever, so she just had to act.

Because I'm just sure she doesn't like that paint color. I'm just sure.

That would be a great question for her. Totally.

She would not remember. I would have to show it to her, and then she would remember it. But it just made me laugh. But also, it's the kind of thing because we're kind of on her back. You know, when you go into someone's house and you're just trying to be polite, right? She's trying to be polite. She's looking around. She's gathering her information. She's trying to be polite.

That's what I thought about it.

Have you ever seen that meme?

There's a guy.

It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. He, he, cause it's, I related so well. He, he says, this is what I know when people come over, this is what people, and they, someone walks in the door and they come in there and they sit down and then they start talking to him.

He says, this is what my wife thinks happens.

And the person walks in and starts looking under things and opens cabinets and goes upstairs.

And looks under the bed and everything. I'm like, that's exactly what I think. It's so true. I know. I just did a little social media thing. I don't think we put it up yet. And it's some kind of a meme out there where like someone says something like the audio is like, I'm coming over to your house. And the lady's like, my house? And then she flashes through all of the messy areas of her house. And I always clean up before my digital girlies come over. Right.

But like just off camera is all the mess that I had to move. Right. So we filmed it all.

Oh, no, that's so brave.

Which I felt really mixed about, do you know what I mean? Oh, my God. Because I'm usually hiding it. But then on the other hand, I was like, no, this is actually real.

I love it.

Right? I love it. Because you relate, but your house is actually very clean.

Oh, well, because I clean when people come over. Like, I mean, it's normally clean.

Come on. But. No, it is. But. Yes.

I am the crazy one who literally, when I go on a trip, I clean. You know, people say they clean so that it's a gift you give yourself when you come back.

That's not why I clean.

I clean because I'm pretty sure their plane is going to go down.

Oh, my God.

And if people come over after I died on my trip, I want them to think well of me.

Wow. Wow. That is so adorable. It's just the truth. But this is the thing. I thought that we were going to let the fear of flying go. Yeah. Yes.

I have let the fear of flying pretty much go.

Okay.

You know, old habits die hard.

Okay.

But that one, I literally, I went away.

I'll tell you why I went away.

But I went away.

I know it was not a good idea, but not a good thing. But I went away last week and I was making the bed and everything. I thought, well, you know, because if we die, I want to do that. And I thought, Melanie, like, stop it.

Yeah. Let's stop it. Let's stop it. I mean, look, The fact that you've had any growth in the fear of flying is amazing, okay? Because it was very major.

It was very major. Stop me from going places.

Yes. And her dad takes the family on these adorable trips. Yes. And, you know. And I go elsewhere also. Totally.

And on this trip, Joel said, Please don't take that pill.

And I was like, no, I'm taking the pill.

Take that pill. I need to talk to Joel about the not taking the pill. That's how I said it. I said, you got to stop it. No. He can't control that.

It's my flying pill.

You're living in your own body and soul. If you need to take the pill, take the pill.

You take the pill.

I would love to take the pill. And I can't take the pill. Not that I'm afraid of flying. I love it so much. Do you? Yes. You didn't know this about me? I didn't. Why? Because. Ah!

Can you put it in my veins?

I wish I could. This is why I've always been so fascinated by this, right? Like, I'm fascinated. Sarah Jessica, also afraid, not to the extent of you, but not a fan, not a fan, has a ritualistic situation about getting on the plane. wants us all to do it. It's a situation. I'm like, whatever makes you happy, I'll do it. But I have no fear. I love, number one, to travel, as you know, right? And the way to travel is to fly. Number two, I love being up in the air. I want to be a bird. I love birds, right? Oh my gosh. I want to fly around so bad. I've jumped out of an airplane. What?

Yes.

Yes, I jumped out of an airplane. I jumped out of an airplane. I had a really weird whim. one time. I used to think that's crazy. Why would people do that? That's nuts, right? And then one day, one day we were filming and my publicist was talking to me about ideas for a magazine thing. And she goes, oh, they have this idea about like facing your fears. And I said, oh, huh?

What am I afraid of? I'm afraid of snakes. She was like, you could hold snakes. I was like, oh my God, I'm so scared. And then she said, what else? And I said, well, I guess we could jump out of a plane.

I just had this whim.

And then I was like, yeah, yeah, I want to do it. Now look, It was scary, okay? It really, really was. And I wouldn't do it again. I wouldn't do it again. Because everything in your body is telling you... That's not the way to live. Do not do it. Like, do not do it. I don't care if there is a, you know... what you call it, on your back parachute.

Parachute that we hope opens.

I don't care. I understand you're telling me that, but no, don't. Because you have to put your toes over the edge of the door. No. Right? To get ready. There's like a pose to get ready. And they're there telling you, and there's a guy strapped to my back. I wasn't alone. Right. Because, I mean, it's a good thing because I fully blacked out. Right?

Because your body's just like, no, no. this is not right right but then I think I would pee in my pants back up no you wouldn't no I think I would no because your body your body takes over your body's in shock it's not gonna pee in your pants but I mean that's a decent fear I guess but no no it didn't that didn't happen but um you kind of black out at least I did and then and then you wake back up and you're flying It's so beautiful.

Well, that's truly magnificent. I didn't know that.

That's pretty great. It was great. And then I land, and they're filming me, right? They're taking pictures, and they're filming me for a magazine story. And I say, first of all, my eyes— You have to send that to me. What? You have to send it to me. Oh, I totally will. I have a picture at home. My eyes are like saucers, like when you're in like a— freeze flight flight situation my eyes are saucers and i say let's go again because all of the endorphins are released in your body oh my god you know and you're just like i'm alive well it's incredible i'm not recommending to do it everybody i just want to be clear but i did have an incredible time my daughter now says she wants to do it i'm like yeah no sorry you don't

get to do it oh my god but yeah no the fear of flying and i also this is the end of why i love to fly No one can bother you.

I know a couple people who are like, there's no phones. There's no calls coming in.

There's just movies to watch. It's incredible. I love it so much, which is a good thing because I fly a lot, as you know. I miss it when I don't fly. Like COVID, the thing that I would do once I got everyone to bed and I'd wipe down the mail, et cetera, I would get in my bed and I would go on all my airline apps online.

to try to figure out how I might get to Kenya to see the elephants. Of course, there was no way. Oh, my goodness. But that was my guilty pleasure enjoyment is trying to find out who's going to fly first and fantasizing that I could go, but I couldn't. You know what I mean?

That was what I would do.

That's amazing. No, I love it. I love it. I love it.

Anyway.

Back to flying. So we're going to, let's work on the cleaning because no one, you're not going to go down on a plane. I'm going to work on it. And no one's going to judge you because, first of all, we know your soul. We know your being. And I'm dead. Like, who cares? Absolutely.

In this scenario. Absolutely.

Absolutely. No one cares. No one cares at all. In fact, if we went to your house and it was messy, we would probably be like, this is a win. Oh, thank God.

Finally, she's like, yeah.

Totally. But you know what? We all have our issues. If this is your issue, it could be so much worse.

But that's what it, like, made me think of when it first started the show.

I was like, oh, my God.

Looking at the house. I agree. Rex Carey. So, yes, I mean, there is a very enjoyable kind of, like, regularness to Berger and Carey.

Yeah.

Right?

I agree with that.

Like, it's not so lofty, flighty, as big and, like— as sexy, emotional as Aiden. It's more like grounded. Yeah. But also kind of doesn't work. Right.

And maybe even like pretty typical of relationships that aren't going to.

Go very long. Yep. Right?

Yep.

Well, you're trying.

Yeah. You're trying.

You're trying.

And you're trying to overlook the tells.

Oh, the tells and then like the sound machine. And he's like, oh, I'm kind of addicted. And so she doesn't want to say anything. But like, I'm like, why don't you just go home? You see, I'm old and I don't care anymore. But like, why does she stay there not sleeping? I would never stay there not sleeping.

Would you when you were 30? Oh, of course.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. She's not 30, though. She's 35. But still, I probably would have. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know.

I think.

Right. Agreed. And I don't get the feeling that it's happening.

Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Okay, Charlotte, this is when I'm finally starting my process of conversion, right?

You were.

Adorable. Thank you. Oh, my God. I love this storyline.

I thought you would like this storyline.

I love this storyline. I'm glad.

I'm glad.

And, oh, my God.

Like, one of the lines that I remember always in the show, and I haven't seen this episode in, I don't know, maybe since.

Willow or Kyle were watching it a couple years ago. Right, right.

It was like, maybe it was the last.

Episode of the last show where you're like, we've been through it. More than this.

We're Jews.

We've been through worse than this.

Oh, my God.

How cute. And your little huh.

At the end. You just did it so brilliantly.

Thank you. And it's like.

You are fully like it's not being made.

You're not making fun of Jewish.

It's like you're really like in it.

Yeah, for sure. Do you remember one time? I don't know if this was I don't know when this happened, but. There's been intermittent times during our lives where I've asked you to do press for me, and then one time we did press for the store, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like talk to an interviewer or whatever. And at some point in the history of this whole thing, you said something like, Charlotte is like Kristen's little sister.

What?

It's so good, isn't it?

Wow.

Okay. Isn't that so good and insightful, Mel? I know. Good one, right? That was good.

Isn't it? Yeah, because you're so much that, and yet there's differences.

Right, right. And anyone who knows me knows that there's differences, right? But like, and I don't feel, when I'm watching, I don't feel like I'm acting or anything, but it's like a slice. It's that part of you. Yeah. It's a slice.

Yeah.

And it's like a hopeful, like a hopeful open. Yeah. Just like hopeful and open and maybe not so... I don't know.

But you did it so well.

You really did. Thank you. No, I mean, there's surprisingly few times looking back where I'm unhappy with my choice or anything. I thought that I would have more self-criticism. But I think at this point, also, it's been so many years. And also, I... I can see my process sometimes in terms of what they were telling me to do, which is a big part of acting. There's directors and writers telling you what they were envisioning you doing, and then you're trying to find a way to also make it yours in that moment and do it as best as you can, but also please them because you love them and you want to please them. So sometimes I see that. But at this point, I love what I'm doing, and I love the writing, and I love all of it.

Oh, brilliant writing. And you getting into the pool... and saying, did you dream it?

I know, it was really good. I'd forgotten that.

I'm with you.

I had so forgotten that. All I remember about that was being so worried about how they were going to film it because I theoretically was supposed to be naked. Right. And I knew he had some idea, David Frankel, of like this aerial footage. Right. But, you know, I'm not happy naked, right?

So I was really concerned. It was really well done.

It looks fine. It looks more than fine. It's perfect. Thank you. It's very pretty. Also, because it's not, A sexual scene. Right. I was so concerned. Right. You know, like. No, I felt exactly the same. Yeah. But he did a beautiful job.

Sure did.

He did a beautiful job. Yeah. I love the whole thing. I know. And I love Evan. Yes.

Right.

Yes. He's so different. Yes. And I hadn't remembered like kind of the. the gusto that he had come with. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's refreshing and likable and real. And you can see what, you know, Charlotte's seeing. Like, he's just very present.

I agree.

Right? I agree. And like available, emotionally available.

And so good for her.

So good for her. Yeah. So good for her.

Hey, do you know my favorite Christmas ornament?

No. You gave it to me. What?

It's a purple dinosaur.

A purple dinosaur?

It's a glass purple dinosaur. Why did I give you a purple dinosaur?

You gave me a Christmas ornament one Christmas for Christmas.

And I was like, I love it.

And every time I take.

It out, I'm always like, oh, Kristen gave me this.

And in fact, I've gotten him some friends over the years.

That's adorable.

That are sort of similar, like a dolphin, a glass dolphin.

Oh, I have animals at home. I don't know if I have a dinosaur, but I mean, I love an animal Christmas ornament. Right? Right? Yes. Love it. I mean, that was the one slightly cringe moment for me, you know, to talk about the baby Jesus with the glitter or whatever. It's so Charlotte, right? But like, it's, you know... it's so precious. You know what I mean? I'm like, but whatever, this is very Charlotte. And also it reminds me that at the end of the show, I believe when we have the puppies, when Elizabeth Taylor has had the puppies, the unplanned puppies and I show them the snow, it has that kind of same quality. And I like that part of, you know, the part of Charlotte or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

It's sweet. It's sweet. It's sweet. Okay.

Okay.

Samantha, Samantha, Smith. Oh, wait. Jennifer Coolidge. We left out Jennifer Coolidge. Jennifer Coolidge. To die.

Okay, what was that like to work with her?

First of all, I barely remember, which I don't know why I barely remember. I remember that outfit because I really wanted that outfit and I didn't get to keep it because I think it's all Chanel. Oh, wow. Yeah, or Louis Vuitton maybe because I have a Vuitton bag and usually if you borrowed a whole outfit, you're supposed to wear the bag first. Because that's what they wanted you to do. But sometimes Pat was like, I don't care what they want. You know, whatever. But I just remember loving that outfit because it's got that collar and the jacket. I just loved it. I didn't get to keep it. I had to return it. It was a sample.

And I remember that I feel like it was a late night. And because we had to walk in and then all four of us. It's like a group scene, but we're at her purse party. And then also she had to go find Samantha and Smith having sex, you know. Those crazy purses, too. She's Jennifer, right?

She's Jennifer's.

All the time, right? So she's just funny and fun and special. And, like, I think when she's holding up the different purses that we're ad-libbing, right? Because, like, all of us are just like, oh, the shoes. Yeah, exactly. Because it was just based on what the props were, right? Like, they had to just be, like, crazy purses, right? And they certainly were. But, like, she was just— she riffs. She's just riffing. And Michael, I think, trusts her. Though, Frankel's directing, right?

So I guess Frankel trusted her, too. I'm pretty sure Michael's there. I mean, I think that's how it all happened. And I just remember loving her. And she would be around in our world. You know, like, she'd come to our premieres. She and Michael were friends. And so we kind of knew her anyway.

Interesting.

And then it was wonderful to have her be discovered by the world in White Lotus to a much greater degree. Yeah.

No, she was always like a.

You'd always see her far down on the call sheet.

Exactly. But around in her wonderful way. But I love how pure it is in this. It's like early days purity. And us just reacting to her is just fun. Really, really fun. And I had forgotten the whole Smith storyline and how he comes along And this is when she gives him money, right? Yes. Oh, my God. I know.

But also, he's so beautiful.

He's so beautiful. And also, like, was such an important member of the cast that I was like, wait a second. I didn't realize how late he came in.

Me too. I know. Because you think of him as sort of like always there. Me too. Agreed. Interesting. It's hard to realize that she didn't have him till the final season, basically. He comes in season five a little bit, but like one or two. Like at the restaurant? Yeah. Oh my God. He doesn't come at all till season six.

So they must have gone off during the pregnancy season and been like, we've got to cook up something good for Samantha for the final season. Right. Wow. Impressive.

Really impressive. Like that's an impressive, he did an impressive job.

He's incredible. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. And also so beautiful. Yeah. But also so good. Yeah. And it's really hard to take it all in. What do you mean? Because he also doesn't have a ton of lines. Right. Which is amazing, but he does so much with them. Yeah. And, like, just with a single look. Yeah.

Right?

Like, she tries to give him this money because he's like, oh, yeah, because remember I got fired. Right. Basically because of her. Right. And then she's like, pulls out her $ 300. Yeah. he doesn't even have to say anything, you know, but he says like, you're crazy or whatever. He's just so good. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. It's incredible. Yeah. It's impressive. He's come on the podcast a couple of times. It's really fun. And it's fun to hear him talk about it, you know, like what it was like. And then Evan also talked about it, which was interesting because what Evan remembers is that when Jason would come to set that it was like the, the whole world tilted because all the women, and I remember all the men, We're just like so excited to talk to him.

Oh my gosh.

You know what I mean?

Like the pressure on that guy. Yeah. Oh my God. And he just did it seamlessly. He did it seamlessly. Yeah. I don't even know how. Yeah. Like it's crazy. Yeah. And she's so good with him.

Yeah.

And he's so good with her. Like it's impressive. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And man, you really want that to work out. Like, here you are trying to want Berger and Carrie to work out, but what you really want to work out is Smith and Samantha.

Well, what you see is that's actually a relationship where someone's championing the other person.

They're making them better. Yep.

You know?

Yes. So true.

You know?

So true. Not, like, showing— Not trying and showing, like— Because also, when Carrie is talking to Berger— And she goes, I brought you a present. It's not a Pulitzer. And he goes, well, actually, I already have a Pulitzer. I'm like, wouldn't you already know that? Like, it's interesting. Do you know what I mean? Like, they have a competition kind of a vibe. Right.

He was joking though, right?

I don't think so. Really? Yeah. I mean, it's weird, right? We need to get to the bottom of it.

That would be weird. I thought they were just like teasing each other. But if that was like honest.

I think it was honest. That's like.

And the fact that it's not clear.

Right? It's all very interesting. Because I remember when she meets him in the publisher's office, in Amy Sedaris' character's office.

Oh, right.

He's held up to her as like, you know, the young writer du jour, the real thing, New York Times bestseller list. Like, you know, but he's also young and cute, right? You know what I mean? It's interesting how he's presented. Yes. I mean, yeah, we've got to figure this out, man. Evie, Evie, help us. We might not be able to figure it out right now. But, oh. But she doesn't laugh. No.

She goes, oh. We need to get to the bottom of this, you guys. Please write to me on Instagram and tell me if it's true or not, because I trust you guys to know. They know all the details, right? Perfect. But then we'll also ask Michael Patrick when we next have him on. Okay. What the deal was with Burger.

Did Burger have a Pulitzer or not? Because that is interesting, because then soon after that, he's going to have his career not go so well and her career is going to lift up. And that's going to... Right.

And he couldn't handle that.

Right. Which is so real. The tells became a yell.

Yes, yes, yes.

A motorcycle ride and all kinds of things go on. Yes, indeed. It's super fascinating. Okay, Miranda. Let's talk about Miranda for a second. So this is about... What did you think of the condoms in the baby bag?

Well, okay.

So.

I mean, that was such a funny line when Samantha was like, I've had those in my mouth.

Really funny.

That was really funny.

Really funny.

But what I did make me think, like, so it really did seem like everyone, pretty much, I think, maybe not Samantha, but everyone in the show that episode was, what they were upset about wasn't what they were upset about.

So....

Miranda was upset about the condoms in the bag, but really she was upset that Steve was having sex with somebody else. Right, right.

For sure.

And then it made me think, so if you're upset that your ex has moved.

On, have you moved on or not? Clearly she hasn't because she just has a baby. She didn't have any way to move on really, though she tries. She did try with the guy with the three names who she pretended not to have a baby with, which was kind of hysterical. Like she, she, this guy who she'd had sex with before, and then he goes away and he never knew she had a baby. And so she just doesn't tell him, but then he cries in the next room.

I know it's pretty funny. And I think it's such an interesting thing. I do remember Michael Patrick talking about the stress of none of our writers having babies and like trying to find stuff to write for Miranda. Right. And they did such a brilliant job because it's all about like, okay, wait, all my friends are single. I've now had this baby. I'm not with the baby's father.

I'm trying to be single, but I have a baby. Like it's, they did a great job. And fitting into the genes and the whole thing. All of it, all of it.

But yeah, I, but I, it did make me go like, I guess that's how you can really tell. Like if your, if your ex has moved on and you're upset, then you actually want to be back.

I don't know if that's true or not. What do you think? Spoken as a true single person, I might add. I feel, so I had many feelings and I have a lot of feelings about Steve and I am somewhat revisiting them now that we're rewatching. Because at the time, I was like, why do we have to keep dealing with Steve? That was how I felt.

Felt.

I know it's terrible. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry, David Eigenberg. I didn't fully appreciate the level of your work. I do now when I watch it, right? Because he's so incredibly different. This is one of the things I'm watching too is like, who can come on as a guy and really create new territory, right? And Evan does that beautifully. Yeah. Jason does that beautifully. David has already been there doing that beautifully, right? In their own way, right?

Like they create a new kind of guy in our world, right? Perfectly said. Yeah, and he does it so well. And he's so... But remember in the beginning of their relationship how he was like the kid, but he was also like, let's have a baby, you know? But he's also like a child. See, like that's where I got stuck, right?

I was like, get rid of him. Get rid of that child. Oh my gosh, that's funny. You already have to do it. And then like... his laundry's not clean i'm not going to go into details but you don't i don't know if you remember this right marianne's having to do the laundry oh the underwear yeah don't even remember don't even don't even okay it's trauma all right so like things about him that character stays with you right they were annoying right so like i never could get over that really but now when i'm re-watching it you can see how he's he's like a walking heart right yes you know he doesn't and how she needs that yes yeah She needs it so badly, right? And also, he's adorable, like an adorable father. But then, see, my thing,

which I thought would be what you would say when I asked you about the condoms in the baby bag, fully inappropriate. Fully inappropriate. Okay. And he could totally get them out and chew on them, which he does in the scene, right? Right. Before he falls off the couch while Miranda's yelling at Steve, which is so perfect. Right.

And so anxiety-provoking, watching that baby teeter towards the edge of the sofa. Oh, my God.

And that little baby looked like he'd been crying a lot.

Right? His little red face was so pink.

I'm sure he was. Oh, my God.

What we did to these different children through the years. I mean, their mothers are always just offset, right?

Yes, of course, which is probably why they're crying.

Right, exactly, because they want their mother, and they don't understand why they can't have their mother, which is bad enough. But later on, for some reason, my Instagram has been showing me the meme of me in the pantry in the movie, in the first movie, when I'm crying in the pantry.

Memorable.

I know, so memorable. And of course, I hadn't had children then, so I didn't even really understand. But what I did understand is that the twins who were playing Rose at the time really cried a lot. Oh. And Michael and I cried a lot. To just get, because you needed peace. We just couldn't handle it.

Cal gone, take me away.

It was hard, man. I mean, just listening to them cry. Do you know what I mean? Like they would cry from the boom mic. Like I'd be holding one and the mom would be right there and we would try different things. Like if she was visible or not visible or this or that, all the different things. Right. But when the boom mic would come over our heads, they'd be like, what? And we would just be like, like our nerves were just shot. You know what I mean?

So I'm like in that pantry fully just crying, right? And I don't know if like in my life I need to see this or whatever, but my Instagram is just showing this to me a lot and it makes me laugh because I also remember– You know, when Brady, the baby Brady, that's the first baby we have around for any length of time, you know? And like when he comes, is this the scene where they come over to Carrie's and she tries to give him Triscuits and Miranda is so distracted that she doesn't realize? And she goes like, can Brady eat crackers? Oh, it's the one before.

She's like, can Brady eat crackers? And she's like, no. And she's like, oh. How many moments like that have you had? Like so many. Yeah. Where people just, it's hard to remember all the stuff about babies. Right? It's really hard. It is.

Even when you have them.

Totally. And also different people have different things they do or don't do or whatever.

Also, I'm not, I love babies, but I... I love my own babies.

And then, you know, when other people are like, oh, look, and I'm like, that's nice.

I have no desire to take that on. Totally. I would or wouldn't, depending. Like, it was questionable. I was never sure, right? Like, when my friends started having babies, I was into it. Right. But I was also scared. Right. You know what I mean?

I think that was what it was for me, too.

Like, the infant thing was a little difficult. Well, because you're just like, what's the magic trick? Yeah. I don't know the magic trick. Why are you crying? Right. And I'm a good entertainment. Yes. I'm a good anti-entertainment. Yes. But I don't want to have total responsibility. Totally. Right. Totally.

And I'm like, once you're talking, you and I are great. But like when I'm having to like figure it out.

Yeah. Oh, listen, I remember calling you when Gemma was little. And asking you about this one time where I just couldn't figure out what she was upset about. And you know, like the heartbreak that you feel when you just can't soothe them. You don't know why. And you're just trying all the things. And what you said to me was so helpful. You said, sometimes they just need to cry.

Because they don't have any other options. And I was like, that is so true, Melanie. You have a lot of wisdom, babe. I come up with some good ones. You really do, man. You are good.

But I do think that's true. And I think that sometimes it's like they're re-regulating their nervous system.

Exactly. And you just need to just comfort them.

Do we want to be around if they're not ours?

Oh, no, definitely. But she was mine. But I still was just, the panic that I felt was not helpful, right, for her. Like, what I know now is, like, they need your nervous system to be calm. Totally. To self-regulate. Totally. Help them self-regulate.

Well, and in that infant stage, when they have that sort of, what is it, like, that bewitching hour thing?

Oh, it was then. It was totally in.

It's, it's. I remember you're like, I don't know what to do with this.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

And we have that same nervous system ourselves. Like it's just tender. And so you're going to throw that like level of chaos at it every day.

It's a little. It's a lot. It's a lot. I know we need Gabor Mate back. I was like, I was like, Bill, be quiet. Mel has some questions from, for Gabor.

I had so many more.

It wasn't even funny. I know. I knew you did too.

I knew you did too.

I'm so glad he's coming back. I know. But also there's a lot, he has a lot of podcasts and things we can go listen to.

I have to tell you. So the episode is called the perfect present.

Perfect gift. Yes. Perfect present. Guess what?

My, my best present.

What?

Want to know?

Yeah.

It's the sweetest thing anyone's ever done.

What? You and I were out to dinner, I believe, and you were carrying a purse that I was like, innocently, like, I love that bag.

And you were like, oh, thanks. And then we just had our.

Dinner, and we hugged goodbye, and you went to your house, and I went to mine. And I woke up in the next morning, and I went out for the day, and I came home, and on my doorstep was the bag. I had never in my life I mean, now I think.

I'd be like scared to say I like.

Something because I was like, I don't mean that. But it was like, I loved the purse.

It was the sweetest, most generous, kindest. I mean, that's you.

But that's you, babe. You're just reflecting back to yourself. Can I tell you what was probably going on for me? To me, you have the best taste in the world, right? So I was like, Melanie, like something that I had. I'm so proud. I'm so like, I feel so proud of myself. I'm going to give it to her because like, wow.

You know what I mean?

But I mean, come on.

It's like the sweetest thing. Well, you bring out the good in me. I mean, this is who you are. You bring out the good in all of us. You're the sweetest. It's true. The sweetest. I love you. I love you more. I'm so happy I met you all those many moons ago. Miller beer. Miller beer. Miller Lite. Miller Lite. And we made money for years.

Do you remember?

Yes. Like unexpectedly going to the mailbox and having a check from Miller Lite. It was a gift. And I met you at the same time. Oh my God. What a joy.

You are the joy.

Thank you for coming to join us. You guys Tune in. Go listen where you get your podcast to no time but now. It's got joy. It's got wisdom. It's like a very special, special experience to get to hear Mel and her adorable dad, Bill, talk about life. Thank you for being with us. Wait. Are you a Charlotte Melanin?

But of course, I wouldn't have it any other way. I know it's a formality.

I don't really have to ask you that. You're kind of the quintessential real life Charlotte in so many ways. So many ways. And so happily married to a wonderful, wonderful human being, Joel. Thank the Lord in heaven that you guys found each other. You're one of my shining examples of what it can be like. Thanks. It's true.

So much. It's true. It's true. It's true. He's a good, good guy. I'm glad you found him. And I'm glad I was in the wedding. At the Bel Air. Bridesmaids. With the swans. It was gorgeous. It was so Charlotte-y, really, when you think about it. You know, like in a beautiful, like in a vision of beauty, you know? It was.

Don't you think?

I would love to think so.

I think so, definitely. Yeah. Because it was very true. It was very, you know, like you. It was like a vision of beauty, and you had that man who did the ceremony with.

The— I tried.

You remember? I wanted to bring in some spirituality. Yeah, it was great.

But he, like, talked way too long.

Did he?

I was like, oh, my God.

I was like, oh, what's happening? I thought it was really special because it wasn't— Cookie cutter. You know what I'm saying? That's what it was special about it. It was very you. It was a reflection of you and your love for him. And we were outside, which is always so beautiful.

Thank you.

It was great. And then I remember staying there and dancing a long time into the night. It was a fun party. Yeah. Oh, my God. It was so good. And I mean, that's, I can't think of another wedding where that happened, right? Like rare. And I remember it was like so much fun. So much fun. Yeah, it's always made me, whenever I go to a lunch meeting or anything at the Bellar, I'm like, here's where Melanie's doing.

And this is when the swan, they told us, be careful, the swans might bite you. Did they really? Yeah. We had a little prep, the bridesmaids, because if the swans looked like they, like if we'd gotten too close or if they felt like they had to defend, we were supposed to get between you and the swans. You know what I mean? What? Yeah. Because we don't want the swans to get your train or anything or your veil.

You know what I mean?

Crazy how they skipped that part in the uh wedding orientation.

It is so beautiful right it's worth it and we didn't bother the swans we just made sure to be respectful of the of the.

Swans yes they were just the background picture they were.

They were doing their their swan thing and the beautiful like tableau you know it was so perfect so gorgeous anyway melanie it's a joy it's a joy the joy to have you love you thank you for being here thank you

Charlotte Takes the Plunge with Melanie Shatner... (S6 E3 "The Perfect Present")

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