13: Burnout Expert: How to Stop Overworking Without Giving Up Success | Tamu Thomas

0:00 I experienced burnout. I had a series of panic attacks. I didn't realise they were panic attacks because I'm resilient. I'm strong. I can overcome. Until I literally thought I was dying on my way to work because my body had enough of me. I wasn't listening, and my nervous system decided I needed a shutdown in order to be able to listen.

0:19 I wasn't living according to my purpose. I was living according to the agenda of society around me.

0:26 We're so programmed that the fear of moving away from what we're so used to often overrides the very exhaustion that our body's suffering. That transition from social worker burnout, this whole epiphany, what you need to do. How did you do that?

0:40 I was sick of myself. I was sick of what I was experiencing, and I knew I was responsible. I looked at my daughter and I thought to myself, I do not want to continue the legacy of you seeing women make great strides and compromise themselves. I didn't want to normalise that success meant that you were depleted.

1:03 Right.

1:04 So I really relate to that vision, really thinking about the type of mum that you wanted to be and how you wanted your daughter to view how you were. But I think what I really struggle with is this mum girl. Is this feeling of like this constant pull of comparison?

1:22 What our children need more than us feeling guilty, they need to see us looking like we're fulfilling ourselves. As long as we're not doing that to the detriment of them, what we role model is so important.

1:35 We start talking about epigenetics and the information that's stored on top of our genes essentially, and that then dictates how our genes are expressed. I think there's a story there that fits really nicely about the time you're in Ghana. Can you share that story?

1:48 Yeah, so um I was in Ghana in 2022. We went to Cape Coast Castle. I wanted to learn about the experience of my collective ancestors, and my heart even can feel heavy now. And we walked into the dungeon and I had a very visceral experience.

2:13 Tamu. Welcome to Beyond. It's great to have you with us. Thank you for having me. I am very much looking forward to our conversation. We are really ready to dive into this.

2:23 I feel like we had like a bit of a pre-podcast podcast. We do something going on.

2:28 We were saying off camera, Tamu, hold the gems for the episode.

2:31 She was dropping gems left right and centre.

2:33 Oh god, pressure. Pressure. No, don't worry. Now, like we always say at the start, we obviously are blessed to have a wonderful community of people from all over the world. And for anyone tuning in and discovering Tamu for the first time, before we get into what you do and how we can help people, in your own words, how would you explain what it is that you do?

2:56 Oh my goodness. I would say that my work, and I don't just mean the work I do, but the work I am here to do on this planet at this time anyway, is to help us understand that human flourishing is the foundation of a life well lived. Human flourishing is the foundation of being able to work well. Um we overlook it and we tend to make it an afterthought.

3:22 Like our health, for example, we take it for granted until something goes wrong. I want us to make flourishing the foundation and operate from that space.

3:32unknown I love that.

3:33 Wow. I'm gonna dive straight in with that first question. I'd love to know because I think we can all think of flourishing in different ways. What does flourishing look like to you when you help people?

3:42 Essentially, it means living the life that feels good to you. And I don't mean, oh my gosh, I'm so happy all the time, but a life that you actually feel safe to exist and expand within. So I'm talking about being clear about your purpose, about what gives your life meaning, about what your strengths are and what you're here to contribute to other people, to this planet, to yourself, and how you connect with yourself and also connect with other people.

4:11 For me, those are the core foundations of flourishing. So, for example, sometimes people will say when I talk about flourishing at work, yeah, but I just do my job to make a living. Yeah, you don't have to be happy every moment of what you're doing. But when you apply purpose, even if you don't like the job, the job serves a purpose.

4:30 When you bring meaning into it, when you're clear about what it does for you and connection and how you connect with other people and this world, you can flourish at work. It's not about enjoying every moment of everything, it's also not about enduring, it's about having a clear purpose and being intentional about how you behave and your relationship with the world around you.

4:52 Dropping the gems straight away there. I dropped it.

4:54 What are we a few minutes in?

4:55 And it's interesting because I'd love to get your thoughts on purpose. I think for a long time, I don't know whether this is just being a first-time mum and being very new to this whole thing. Purpose really scared me because I find that sometimes as women we're labelled as like you you have to be this or you have to be that, and you have to choose between the two, whether that's being a mum or a businesswoman.

5:16 You can't, there's this kind of thing, this societal thing of you can't have both. It's got to be either or. So, what are your thoughts on kind of on that and what society's done to that word purpose? Because I think for a lot of people it scares them that they have to find this huge true meaning immediately.

5:32 My view is that we live in a culture that has become more and more about achievement. So it's very much an achievement culture. Yeah. And when you live in an achievement culture, satisfaction feels like it's the antithesis of achievement. Yes. We misconstrue misconstrue satisfaction and we equate it with laziness, with not being driven and ambitious.

5:56 But actually, in my view, when we optimize for satisfaction, we're then able to line up our achievement and our ambition with that purpose. So, for example, I grew up in the women can have it all generation. Rather than wanting to have it all, because we don't, we don't, and I don't mean it in a very limiting way, we don't need to have it all to live a good life.

6:20 It's about getting clear about who you are, what's important to you, and what enables you to live a life that you feel like your shoulders can lean back and you can be soft, you can relax when you need to stand up firm, you can do that. You've got enough space to be. So when we think about that, we think about what's important.

6:41 And when you're clear about what's important, you're less driven by societal expectations. Societal expectations really take hold when you haven't had the opportunity to develop your sense of self and what's important to you. So I experienced burnout. I had a I had a series of panic panic attacks. I didn't realize they were panic attacks because I'm resilient, I'm strong, I can overcome until I literally thought I was dying on my way to work because my body had enough of me.

7:13 I wasn't listening, and my nervous system decided I needed a shutdown in order to be able to listen. And going through that burnout breakthrough, what I understood was I wasn't living according to my purpose. I was living according to the agenda of society around me. And when I got clear about my purpose, it was terrifying because achievement culture, womanhood, being a black person, all of these things implant false truths.

7:45 And one of the false truths was I've got to work really, really hard all the time to prove myself. And I do that by doing, being of service, doing things for people, often doing things for people to the detriment of myself. And when I came back nose to nose with my purpose, when I was almost begging and pleading, like, please help me.

8:08 What am I supposed to do? Because I cannot carry on. It was you're here to inspire people to make change. You're here to inspire people to grow and develop. You are here to speak the uncomfortable truths in a compassionate way so people can see the things they're avoiding and hiding from, face them and transmute them so they can become like one of my things I say, pardon my French, is shit is fertilizer.

8:33 It's not gonna fertilize anything if you're just rolling around in it. You've got to utilize it. And for somebody who got praise, value, worth, external validation from doing, especially doing for other people, leaning into no your purpose is to inspire is terrifying because you're not do-do-doing all the time.

8:55 You you know, you can't operate like you're a mule when you're supposed to be, I don't know, an eagle or something. That was a really terrible metaphor. But when you're used to grinding, actually being feels terrifying because your system has become accustomed to overfunctioning. Whereas when you're somebody who is supposed to be here to inspire people, you need time to sit, to contemplate, to learn, to metabolize what you're learning.

9:25 And none of that includes the kind of physical labor of doing. So it feels like you're being lazy. And for somebody like me, being lazy is a mortal sin. Like you are um, my parents are from Sierra Leone, West African, a child relaxing in their home, useless gal, come and do this.

9:44 So that's super interesting.

9:46 Yeah, so it just feels like the opposite of everything I was told made me valuable. Is that your career as a social worker when you have burnouts?

9:54 Now, I just want to jump in there because I'd imagine there'll be a lot of people probably experiencing that. I want to ask you a few questions actually. Obviously, the burnout is when the body itself gives you the sign, it shuts you down. Firstly, did you have signs that you were ignoring?

10:09 Oh, I saw the signs.

10:11 And what um in obviously, uh yeah, in hindsight, you can look back, but obviously you ignored them. Yeah. What are those early warning signs before you suffer from burnout and the body sort of just stopping? What were you ignoring?

10:23 I was ignoring when I finally started to reflect, I was like, oh, I've had a headache for three months consistently. I don't remember not having a headache. So it was things like that. It was there was one day my friend said to me, Have you noticed you're always clearing your throat? You're always you've always got some kind of something that you're clearing.

10:47 And it just seems like you've got a cold all throughout the winter. And I was like, Oh my goodness. I pretty much have a low-level cold from September right through to March, April. And then it would peak with laryngitis, sinusitis, flu, bronchitis. Um, I was an early adopter of COVID. I didn't know, I was so ill in February 2020, not really knowing what COVID was.

11:11 And I just kept saying, This feels really weird. It doesn't feel like anything I've experienced before because my immune system was shattered because I was constantly operating in my fight or flight. Another thing was things that I would usually have um patience for, I just found it really irritating.

11:30 So sometimes it was my daughter. She would do things that I know were natural and normal for her to be doing. And I found that I was really managing and suppressing irritation for things that usually I wouldn't bat an eyelid at. I wasn't experiencing joy the way I experienced joy before. The things that used to make me laugh, the things that I felt very and like a real sense of aliveness for, it had gone.

11:54 Passion had gone out the window. I had always said that in my job, the moment the passion goes, I shouldn't be doing that role anymore. Because as social workers, we have such a huge impact on the lives of the people we work with. You have to, for me, I felt I had to be passionate about the work so that I was making decisions that were right for the family or the families I was working with.

12:19 And I felt that the passion had started to fade, or enthusiasm, maybe is the right word, rather than passion. And I felt a really low-level pervasive sense of sadness. I just wasn't getting excited about I'm a very excitable person. I come from a very cheer-leading family, and I just didn't have that the way I had before.

12:41 And it felt like I was dragging myself through life. There was such a pervasive feeling of exhaustion, like bones, deep generational exhaustion that I was constantly having to kind of pump myself up to be able to get through. So those were the main signs. And I I needed a lot of pet talking to be able to get started doing stuff that I never needed before.

13:10 And were you aware? Because the work that both of us do, you know, if you think 5% of who we are is conscious awareness, 95% of who we are is subconsciously programmed. In the work that I do, I always say, you know, um, welcome honest feedback from your nearest and dearest. You know, because we're so blind, there are blind spots.

13:30 And I think you mentioned it was your friend that said, Do you not notice that you constantly clear your throat? Were you aware as it was going on, or do you think it was really the awareness was struck as soon as that that friend said that?

13:41 Like what I was not aware. You weren't aware. Right. I was not aware. It was such a feature, it it designed, it became a design feature as opposed to this is a sign that there's something wrong.

13:51 Okay. Now, the second part of this, and that was super valuable, by the way, and I'd love everyone who's in that sort of environment that can resonate, perhaps to ask in safety their nearest and dearest, like your friend did, you know, that divine sort of message. But then I think where most people will struggle, and I'd love to understand this transition for you.

14:09 So this is around like 2020, is it?

14:12 No, this was before that. This was 2016, 2017.

14:15 Okay, so you carry it on for a for a little bit.

14:17 Oh, yeah.

14:19 Because, and I understand that. Like, let's be honest, in the world that we live in now, there's probably a lot of people that go, yeah, I'm burnt out, but I've got a family, I've got responsibilities, I've got a mortgage. I'd love to move into that being state. I'd love to know twofold how you did that when perhaps you had like a daughter and a house to run, and probably like over 16 years work yourself up quite high in that career.

14:45 And we're so programmed that the fear of moving away from what we're so used to often overrides the very exhaustion that our body's suffering. How did you do that? And then you know, you said you face the the purpose. I'd love to then know how you do how you got into what you do now, like whilst balancing still running your house and like that leap, which I think so many people would be going, How did you do that?

15:10 Yeah. Well, for the first question, yeah, I looked at my daughter and I thought to myself, I do not want to continue the legacy of you seeing women make great strides and compromise themselves and their well-being in order to make these strides. I didn't want to normalize that success meant that you were depleted.

15:36 Right. Okay. I really, and I wanted her to experience me as energized. I didn't want her to experience me as scraping the bottom of the barrel of my energy for her. That was really important for me. So my mum was a fun mum. We were always going places, we were always doing things. Some of my cousins, their first experience of doing things, some things were with my mum.

16:03 It's not uncommon for us to be somewhere that seems relatively obscure, and someone come up to my mum and say, Oh my goodness, Auntie Cecilia, you were the first person to have taken me to X Place. But what I saw was that as my mum's career expanded, as she became um more senior in her roles, and quite frankly, as the relationship between her and my dad became more strenuous, I just saw that she had less and less energy to be that vivacious person she once was.

16:33 Right. Okay. And I'm sad, internalized those messages, and I didn't want to role model that. That was number one. Number two, um, I had this auntie. She wasn't in my life for very long. As in, she there was a period of time where my family were very much immersed within the wider Sierra Leone community in London, and she would come and stay with us.

16:57 And then she moved back to Sierra Leone. Uh, her name was Aminata, Auntie Aminata, and she was an international businesswoman. And when I tell you, she just exuded joy in a way that women in my community, the women I was seeing day by day, they just didn't. And I knew that her work took her all around the world.

17:21 She spoke seven languages, she worked for places like the United Nations. And when I looked at her, she just looked free. Her smile seemed wider than everybody else's, her perfume, like she was so fancy in my little mind. And she would come and stay with us. We lived in the council flat, 13th floor of a tower block.

17:42 But where she was put up to stay was this really plush apartment in Baker Street. And this was the 80s, right? People still had brown, orange, beige all over the place. She had cream, carpet, everything was gold. There were chandeliers all over the place. And I remember thinking: if this is what happens when you're an international businesswoman, that's what I want.

18:04 So I had some strong role models, female role models in my life. And even though it was very subconscious, they stayed with me.

18:13 Yeah.

18:14 And when I had my burnout breakthrough, I was doing a guided visualization. I can't remember what it was about, but the image of my auntie Aminata and also my mum, us going to all of these places together, became so strong in my mind. I was like, oh my goodness, you've always wanted to have your own business.

18:33 You've always wanted to have an international presence. You can actually do that, and you can use your social work skills to be able to have the impact you want to have. You don't have to be doing the kind of work you're doing. You're supposed to be doing other work. And it was so strong and compelling, I couldn't not.

18:52 Right.

18:52 Oh, that's so powerful. I think what I'd love to know from you as well, because listening to that, I really relate to that vision, having that really strong vision. So the two things that I think are really powerful that you've said is really thinking about the type of mum that you wanted to be and how you wanted your daughter to view how you were.

19:09 Yeah. But then also that vision of you kind of seeing where you want to go. But I think what I really struggle with, and I did a video on it actually yesterday, and so many women seem to struggle with the same thing, is this mum guilt is this feeling of like this constant pull of comparison. Should I just be at home?

19:30 Like, am I the only person that can really fully and truly take care of this child? And this kind of constant pullback. Yeah. You have this vision, you can see yourself dancing in the future, and then something yanks you back. Yeah. Yeah. Get back in that place where you belong. And I think that's what's something that I've really battled with, and I know a lot of other women do.

19:49 So is that something that ever came into your mind or you ever struggled with? Do you say that? Oh my goodness.

19:55 Yes. Um, I went for a walk with my daughter a few months ago, and um for whatever reason we were talking about swimming. I used to hate swimming in it, like in the sea, fine, but when the my daughter was little, I would want to be out of that pool within 15 minutes. I would always go with other people so I could get out of the pool.

20:14 Yeah, yeah. But then I realized it was because I was exhausted. Yeah. And I love to experiment. So a couple of years ago, I experimented with really taking care of myself the way I need to take care of myself. So going to bed and waking up at the same time, eating the food I need to eat, going to the gym even when I didn't feel like it.

20:32 And I felt so rested. I took my nephew swimming. We were in the swimming pool for 90 minutes. Wow. The children around us were looking at the people, the adults they were with, and looking at me almost like, well, why aren't you playing like she is? I you would have thought I was 10 years old the way I was playing in the pool with my nephew, because I had the energy.

20:51 And I was walking with my daughter and we were talking about and I said, you know what? I feel guilty. I feel really bad because when I would take you swimming, I literally felt like I was scraping the bottom of the barrel of energy to be able to play with you in the pool. And she said, Oh, I never felt like that.

21:05 I never felt like you were giving me the bottom of your energy. And in that moment, I had the relief that I didn't damage her and make her feel like she wasn't important to me. But also like, oh my goodness. So even though I didn't take away from you, I took away from me. I was constantly in my energetic overdraft.

21:26 So then there was like, oh my goodness, I can see why I have behaved in this way. But the other thing is putting my social worker hat on is what our children need, more than us feeling guilty and more than us thinking that we're some kind of sacrificial lamb martyrs, they need to see us feeling looking like we're fulfilling ourselves.

21:48 As long as we're not doing that to the detriment of them, what we role model is so important because they learn far more from seeing us than from like, you know, that old saying, Do as I say, not as I do. They see what we're Doing. There was one day uh when my daughter, I think she was 17, her friend had stayed over, and her her friend, my niece, pretty much, me and her mum had been friends since we were 17.

22:12 And my daughter and my goddaughter, let's say, were having a conversation about my friend, my my uh goddaughter's mum. And I was like, oh my goodness, you know your mum inside out, back to front. You don't know the version, you don't just know the version she shows you, you see her as she is. And I thought, if you see your mum that way, my child sees me that way.

22:36 So it doesn't matter what performance we try to do, they see us. So rather than performing, let's be who we are. And all of this guilt, there have been many a times that I would say to my child, she's an only child, single parent, I am getting tired now. We've got 15 more minutes in the park than we have to leave.

22:57 That's not taking anyway anything away from her. She has had her time in the park, she has had time to play. It's much better for her to have a mother who is energetically present than a mother who cannot wait until she goes to bed so that I can indulge in wine o'clock. So a lot of the guilt we experience as mothers is manufactured.

23:17 Yeah. Society as it stands wins when we're too haggard to be making powerful choices about how we mother and what we role model to our children. I know that you two have a son. You being energized and you being able to be creative, playful, and all of those sorts of things, you automatically um defy this notion about like the nagging wife at home, the mum who's tied to the kitchen.

23:45 Is you two are both here living out your destiny, and he can see that. What is he gonna see? When we have a happy household and mum has her needs met, she's much better for all of us. So it makes sense for me to um let mum know or let the women in my life know that they are a priority as well. We uh I I could wax lyrical about this.

24:05 I'm gonna stop now, but we do so much by what we role model.

24:09 Yeah. I get but emotional listening because just authentically to everyone listening, it's probably something that I struggle with the most. You know, I'm sort of like you, you know, every like life's wonderful, and I've manifested this incredible life, but it's just so busy and and and you know, so hard sometimes.

24:28 And when I want to be super present with Humphrey, there's always a million things. You know, I struggle with that. And I think I'd love to get into the how in a moment and how you transition from social worker to to what you do. I think there's a story there that fits really nicely that I heard you talk about at Manifest, the festival that we both spoke at in June, which was a said something so powerful about the time you think you were in Ghana.

24:52 Can you share that story?

24:54 Yeah, so um I was in Ghana in 2022 and we went to Cape Coast Castle. Cape Coast Castle is not like Buckingham Palace or any of the castles we're familiar with. Um, so Ghana was a massive slave port where they transported, kidnapped, trafficked Africans to go and basically toil in the quote-unquote new world.

25:25 And across the coast in car in Ghana, they've got a few of these castles. There's Elmina Castle, Cape Coast Castle. So we went to Cape Coast Castle. I wanted to learn about the experience of my collective ancestors. I wanted to see what made Ghana the country it is today and how it impacted the whole world, basically.

25:47 I went there to learn. I love learning. An opportunity for me to get new information and metabolize it and create it into something. I love it. And um, we had just been at this beach bar, we'd eaten some really great food. I'd had my Fanta in Africa is like the best Fanta going. If I'm gonna drink Fanta, I'm gonna drink it there.

26:08 It looks radioactive, but oh my goodness, it's so much tastier than the Fanta we have. It's probably even worse than what we have over here. So I was satisfied. My belly was full, the sun was shining, went to Cape Coast Castle, walked in, and I started to feel a heaviness. And I just thought, well, it's a sad environment, of course I'm gonna feel a heaviness.

26:29 And then the tour guide came, he gave us an overview about what we would be doing, and then the first place we visited was the male dungeon. My heart even can feel heavy now. And we walked into the dungeon and he started to explain what happened in the dungeon. And the dungeon where African men were kept was above the church.

26:56 So you would have people who had been kidnapped, who were held in chains, who were kept in deplorable conditions. So when you go there, the floor, it it doesn't look it looks like compacted dust, and it's the floor hasn't changed. So yeah, it's compacted dust, but there's also human flesh, feces, blood, all sorts, because you weren't just let out to go to the toilet whenever you felt like it.

27:22 So people were defecating on themselves. There was all sorts going on in there. And as he started to tell the story, I started to feel really nauseous. In fact, I I thought I was I had a runny tummy, I wasn't sure what end, wanted to do what. So I thought, let me go to the loo, sort myself out, then I'd be able to go back.

27:40 I just couldn't go back. And I had a very visceral experience. It was like the collective ancestors were saying, you are not going to intellectualize this experience, you're gonna feel this experience. I'm very good at intellectualizing. I can feel something, and within a minute, it's up in my brain, and I'm analyzing it, I'm no longer feeling it, or I'm numb to what I'm feeling.

28:09 And the message was very clear: you're not gonna have that experience today. We need to teach you a lesson. And the overwhelming message I got whilst I was sitting in the courtyard, I even feel like my voice is a bit shaky as I'm I'm I'm talking about this. Was that you're out here running around doing all of this busy work?

28:33 Obviously, it's not the same as them, but recreating the busyness they had to endure because they had no choice. And it was like, girl, get up. We worked so hard that you can stand on our shoulders. And it was an epiphany that instead of utilizing and that that this sounds so I don't mean it in a transactional way, but I was so stuck in the post-traumatic stress disorder that I was overlooking the post-traumatic growth that I could take from their experience from what they had to endure slash what they were able to endure to be able to live to create change that enabled the end of the transatlantic slave trade and then all the other struggles they endured so that black people would be able to

29:37 experience freedom. It was a very, very clear message that I would not experience what I'm here to experience if I continued to do back like my version of backbreaking work instead of being the person I'm here to be. Um, black Americans often talk about being their ancestors' wildest dreams. I came away thinking, oh, like I'm being a nightmare for you because I'm just perpetuating the cycle of overfunctioning when I'm supposed to be doing something else.

30:09 Um when all they'd be thinking about in the dungeon was freedom and fun and joy and living, not not how hard can I work.

30:16 Like, how can I have a uh I wish it could even have been about fun. Like, how can I have the right to be a human being? Yeah. When they were relegated to being not even humans, like doing chattel.

30:30 And that's now something that's a given. And it's just not something that we really even think about when I do say about. Do you think how many of because oh that's so powerful, but how many people do you think live through a past ancestral kind of belief or feeling when they don't actually need to?

30:50 I think that most of us do because that is what is forming our subconscious, right? And whilst we don't need to, the way our brains are designed, it's like we're gonna do whatever is the most efficient.

31:03 Yeah.

31:04 But doing what's most efficient is just about survival. If you and and let's face it, most people on this planet, and I'm not talking about the people who are in a circumstance where all they can do is survive, but most people who are in the position where they could actually start to do the stuff that will enable them to thrive are totally unaware.

31:28 And because of those subconscious patterns, they don't understand that they have got way more agency and control. And I don't mean over control, but they've got way more agency and control than they realize because they don't slow down enough, they're constantly on that hamster wheel of doing. I know people who are turning over seven figures, but they're still operating in survival because that pattern is so strong.

31:56 Um, I was working with somebody who was like, I can't stop because if I stop, we might end up on the streets. And I said, But you just said you reached seven figures halfway through the year, and you thought it was gonna take you the whole year to turn over that in your business. But the story you're telling yourself is I've got to keep up this intensity, otherwise, I'm gonna end up in the streets.

32:18 And then she was able to see how her very working class roots were running the show, and she wasn't able to experience the present because it was being so dominated by the past.

32:32 And I think before we transition to I mean, you were asking everyone I did it. Yeah. On that thread though, because what I just want to share with people in real time, what it really helped me understand in that moment, if we start talking about epigenetics and the information that's stored on top of our genes essentially, and that then dictates how our genes are expressed.

32:51 And you, you know, I think is it like seven or fourteen generations back that expression? Yeah. And I just thought I just sat and realized that if I think of my father, my grandfather, and I don't know beyond that, but the type of lives and hustle they lived, even though we've manifested this, I still have the that real sort of exact expression.

33:16 Yeah, you know. Uh, and then you sort of there was something you said in the talk about how we've got to clear that way, haven't we? We've got to undo the lineage in a sense, or you know, I think that was really powerful. Am I right in thinking you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:30 Because um, so especially those of us that we like to do the deep inner work, right? We do the shadow work, we want to get into all of those dark crevices and excavate what's there. So we can end up pathologizing ourselves. But when you recognize actually, this is ancestral, this is historical, this is something that is a pattern within my system that I can do something about, rather than pathologizing yourself, and I know there are going to be so many people who would be like, Yeah, it's all right for you.

33:58 You're right. Because when my friend first said it to me, I was like, Oh, go away, leave me alone. Um, but it's a decision. Yeah. When you make that decision, rather than trying to work through a history that isn't your own, as in it's not your personal history, you can decide, thank you so much, ancestors, for providing me with this with this information.

34:22 This is the decision I'm making with the data I have. So rather than dredging through all of that, you can then start to take the action you need to take. And something I said quite flippantly a few years ago, and everybody was like, oh, achieving is healing. I don't mean that we are overachieving and we're masking over things, but when you start to achieve the things your patterns say you can't, you immediately start to heal and soothe that pattern.

34:54 All of the nervous system reactivity you get, whether you're the type of person who, when you're in a survival state, you go into your fight or flight, or you're the type of person that goes into your shutdown freeze response. When you actually start to do the things that your patterns tell you you can't, you start to teach your nervous system, actually, you can do that, and you're not going to die.

35:15 You're actually going to expand and strengthen your capacity in uh somatics. It comes from chemistry or something. They call this titration. So if you think about when you're getting in the bath and you're testing the water, you might put your foot in, it's a bit hot, you take it out, you put your foot back in, and your foot's able to acclimatize, and then you lower yourself down into the bath and you're able to immerse yourself.

35:36 So when we do that, yes, it allows us to see, despite the narrative, the reality is I can do. And that automatically starts to heal those patterns. Right. And when you think about epigenetics, and this might sound very spiritual, woo-woo, whatever, I just think that what we call those things, it's the science we aren't yet able to understand and quantify.

36:00 If you think about epigenetics, you have got seven to 14 generations gene expression kind of like sitting on top of your own DNA and impacting how it moves. Well, when you are healing that and you are experiencing that, you're also healing your bloodline. You're also healing that DNA. You're also, um, to a lesser or greater degree, showing those markers that are kind of trying to protect you because that's what those patterns are trying to do.

36:31 We don't need that protection anymore. Trust me, I've got us. And so you show yourself that you are capable rather than constantly protecting, embracing yourself.

36:41 And how would you dumb down epigenetics? Because I'm listening and I'm like, it's a very fancy word. I'd love to know like the the really just the simple, like just a quick one.

36:53 I find it amazing how many people are totally unaware that Corusand and I have our own manifestation community called the Beyond Community. We launched it in early 2026, and it is by far one of the best apps that I personally use every single day. And I know if you've got a dream, you are going to love this community.

37:15 I'm not here to sell you the resources, but just know that if you want to be in the best place to help you get towards whatever it is that you're seeking to manifest, you're gonna absolutely love everything that's in this community, all the resources and all the people. So if you just look in the show notes below, you're gonna see a link to a seven-day free trial.

37:35 Just come on in, check us out, check out everything that we have to offer. And if for whatever reason this community isn't for you, no hard feelings, you can leave anytime within that seven days. But if you have got a dream and you'd love all the help to get you there, you're gonna absolutely love it.

37:52 And with that said, back to the episode.

37:56 Epigenetics shows how what you experience in your environment, let's call it trauma, can impact how your genes express themselves. And if you think about it, when the sperm and the egg come together, the genes from wherever they've come from are inside that sperm and that egg, and they contribute to who you are.

38:15 But epigenetics tells us that imagine my fist, and if you're listening, not watching, I've clenched my fist. Imagine that fist is your DNA, it's one of your genes. Epigenetics is almost like a little hat that sits on top of your gene, that sits on top of this fist I'm bunching up and changes how it expresses itself.

38:37 So your gene is designed to do whatever it does, but it is hindered or impacted by the expression from your other from your ancestors that's sitting on top of that. So it's not that your gene has changed, how it expresses itself changes because of this, let's call it protective layer that's sitting on top of it.

38:57 And the more you're able to take action in service of your growth, in service of your purpose, in service of what gives your life meaning, then your gene is less impacted by that protective layer. It's not that that protective layer will disappear, that protective layer doesn't have as much power over how your gene expresses itself.

39:19 There you go. There we go. That was a wonderful explanation. Thank you so much.

39:23 That's amazing.

39:24 Now, before we move into the how, if people listening go, what what is my expression? How am I? Would you agree that it's people just getting present enough to their own programming and almost observing themselves, their behaviors, what they're like to understand that? Is that what would what advice would you give to people?

39:39 So one of the first things I did to start to recognize my patterns was start to question where my behavior came from. Okay. What did I learn? What did I observe around me from childhood right through to adolescence and adulthood? What did I learn and how did that impact how I show up? So, for example, when I think about how I am as a human being, the signs were always there.

40:04 I was always holding court as a child. I was always organizing something and encouraging people to let's do this group activity together. I was always that person. But then I got messages about um being too much, about taking over, about showing off, about giving other people a turn and all of these things.

40:23 And the type of person I am, I internalize first. So I recognized how I had internalized all of these messages. I remember um internalizing a message about kindness. One day my dad picked me up from nursery, which was very unusual, unusual because he never did, and he bought me a packet of cherry drops.

40:41 I remember it specifically. Oh my goodness, they cut the roof of your mouth, but they taste so good. That's so true. And for whatever reason, most of the people in my class were there and they saw my dad give me these sweets. In my head, I thought it would be kind to share these sweets with my class.

40:57 I got down to the last person, looked at the packet of sweets, it was the last sweet. And I couldn't not give it to that person, so I gave the sweet away. My dad, very stoic West African man, as he left, he said, I'm not gonna buy you another packet of sweets. You need to learn the lesson. He said, Um, he said something like, When you are too kind, people will take advantage.

41:20 And I was about three or four, maybe I was four, and I didn't know what advantage was, but I knew it was something bad. And so there was a lesson there that I internalized about if you're too kind, people take advantage. So hold back. Wow. So there are all of these things. So if we go back in time, we will see lots of little landmarks that give us clues about where we learnt these behaviors.

41:44 Fascinating.

41:45 Wow. So now I think this is the perfect transition into how you've manifested this life. Yes because it starts with a dream, starts with the vision. You've you've observed yourself. Walk us through then that transition from social worker, burnout, this whole epiphany, what you need to do to coaching and speaking, and how did that story go?

42:06 I would love to give you some romantic kind of I was sick of myself. I was sick of what I was experiencing, and I knew I was responsible. Okay. Now, a lot of people, when they hear the word responsible, it feels really heavy. It almost feels like blame. But for me, responsibility was like, you've got the opportunity to do something about this.

42:27 So I wrote a book called Women Who Work Too Much. I had to work too much to get myself out of that situation. So there are times where we absolutely do have to crank it up to be able to get to the other side. Lots of people in my world will talk about nature, as if nature is this really soft, placid thing.

42:48 Even if you look at how a daisy grows, when you watch and please go onto YouTube and Google plant time lapse from seed, you will see that it's a ferocious journey. The plant has to burst out of that seed. It has to burrow the roots down, that it has to fight through the soil to come up and see the sunshine.

43:08 It is a strenuous journey, okay? So all of this nature stuff where we make out like it's ooh la la la, gentle, gentle, no such thing. So I had to graft and grind. So I had signs that I was just working in dysfunctional ways. So I left full-time employment and I set up my own social work practice because I thought that would give me the freedom I needed.

43:31 Any fear around that, Tammu? No, no, love that. No, because I had my auntie Aminata. Yeah. She was an international businesswoman. And then on top of that, both of my um aunts on my mum's side, they work for themselves. They work in film and television. And so I just had people that worked for them for themselves all around me.

43:50 So there was I'm sorry, I can't give you any tips to get over that. So there's no fear. You just went for it. So that would be that. But I knew that. That in order to be able to create what I wanted to create and not, you know, deprive my child of the life she was accustomed to, I would have to overwork.

44:10 But it was for a finite period of time. So for when I say finite, I don't mean two minutes. It took about 18 months for my business to make the minimum I needed to be able to survive. I didn't wait until I replaced my social work salaries. So as soon as I knew my bills were covered, I that's when I left my full-time work.

44:32 That left my social work. That was about 18 months, to be totally honest with you.

44:37 And you were then doing it yourself through your own business. Is this what you mean? Okay. Still doing social work though. Yes. Okay.

44:42 So I was doing independent social work and I was also a family court advisor. So I was doing that for about two years. But the last 18 months, I was doing that whilst doing my coaching business. So I didn't even know what coaching was. Part of my burnout recovery, I found the world of positive psychology.

45:02 Loved it so much, loved to learn. Went and did a short course in positive psychology. The course lecturer, when I was saying, I'm not sure about my career choices, he said, Oh, well, social workers are the coaches of the therapeutic world. You've got transferable skills. No coaching course is going to be able to teach you what you've learned as a social worker.

45:20 You would be brilliant. And so I knew that I could use my social work skills because coaching pretty much is social work for people that actually want it. Yes. So then I made the transition and um I did things all backwards. Everybody says, don't start with a membership community. You need a big group of people around you.

45:37 I started with a membership community because I didn't want to coach really. I just thought, oh, this feels a bit like social work. Then I realized I was coaching people. So I set up a group pro program. Then I realized I could have a big impact. So then I started coaching people one-to-one. So as soon as I made enough money, I started doing the coaching full-time.

45:55 And then transitioned from the social working business that was your own.

45:59 Yeah, so wound that down.

46:00 Okay, so so for people listening, for you it was this transition between both. So working for someone else to doing what you did yourself. Yep. But whilst you were doing that yourself, you were still working your full-time job until you replaced your bills and then you quit. And then whilst you're doing it yourself, you're now coaching as well initially?

46:18 Like, is that the overlap there? Like, or learning how to be a coach while still doing your social work?

46:23 So I left my social work full-time being employed in 2016. I set up my social work practice in 2016, and I had that until uh 2018. Okay. Yeah, because I had one court case that was dragging on, so I couldn't close down my practice in time. So whilst I had my own independent social work practice, I started my coaching business.

46:49 So yeah, so it was I was a crossover one independent business with another independent business. Yeah. And the moment I could, and then um, in that time, positive psychology led me to the world of somatics. And then when I started learning about the nervous system, I thought, oh, rather than doing one of the standard coach trainings, because I feel like it focuses so much on mindset, it doesn't take your embodied experience into consideration.

47:17 So I thought, I wonder if there's a coaching course that's around the nervous system. Of course, the universe or Facebook tracking would have it. I opened up my phone and there was an advert for um somatic coach training. Right. And as soon as it was with the somatic school, as soon as I saw Nathan, the founder, I knew that he and the somatic school is where I needed to be.

47:42 He kept trying to get me onto a sales call. He kept trying to get me to come to these webinars. I was like, I don't need all of that. I can't afford to pay it in full. Can I just tell me if I can pay a play pay plan so I can start to pay the money? And he was like, Are you sure? One thing about me, when I know you make it a I know that's it.

47:59 I was like, I don't need any of this. Just send me the link so I can start to pay the play pay plan. So the more I started to integrate the somatics and start to have this conversation, that's when I started to notice our unhealthy relationship with productivity and started talking about toxic productivity, which then led to the book.

48:16 But then in relation to the speaking, I've always had some kind of side gig on the go. I've never just done one thing because I'm a multi-passionate person. I've got ADHD, I need novelty. So I've always had some kind of side quest going on. And because of the way I am, I was always invited to speak, whether that was keynote speaking, on a panel, hosting a panel.

48:41 So that's something I've been doing since 2009 or so. Even when you were doing your social work, okay. Even when I was doing my social work, yeah. I was always invited to speak somewhere.

48:52 But all very much like sequential steps. That's what I think people very often miss when they see you at this end point.

48:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

49:00 Yes. I mean, like it seemed like actually quite a short period when you actually say it back, but it probably felt like a real long time. Yeah. But the one thing I really I'd love you to talk about. I heard you talk about an ancestral board meeting and calling that board meeting. I'd love you to talk about that because I think that ties in really nicely into kind of that self-observation and also kind of bringing in people that you know, like, and trust.

49:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can be really authentic. So talk us through that because I heard you talk about that. I loved it.

49:28 Yes. So um there are some people, they're like, just give me the strategy. I will go off and do it, just give me the strategy. Spirituality is my strategy.

49:38 Yes.

49:38 So I say that so flippantly, but then I've also got a very critical part of my mind because growing up as a child who had ADHD in a time when no one knew what ADHD was, or if we did, boys had it and they weren't allowed to drink orange drinks because it made them hyper. So true. Remember?

49:56 Yeah. Or sugar.

49:57 Like it was like, don't let them eat their party. They weren't allowed fantasticer because it would make them hyper.

50:04 Or Sonny D. Was it Sunny D?

50:06 Oh my gosh, that was the difference. It was Sonny D. Oh my goodness. Sonny D tastes disgusting in terms of why the kids drinking.

50:15 I mean, we were drinking bags of custom.

50:21 Oh my god. Sunny D. I've completely. Please don't sue us. Whoever owns Sunny D, please internally.

50:30 Disclaimer.

50:31 I internalize, not even I didn't, I was told so many times, you do things the wrong way. That's not how you're supposed to do it. And beaten overhead with being consistent and disciplined and all of these things, but I'm just like, I understand what you're saying. I just don't know how to do it. So I've got all of these messages going on simultaneously.

50:50 And sometimes it will be like, there is a doorway here, but for whatever reason, I'm just banging my head against the wall just to the right of the doorway. And I got sick of myself. And I just thought, my grandparents would not want this for me. Like, this is not what they would want. And so I thought, I'm gonna consult them because my granddad, so he's the only grandparent I really knew.

51:14 Um, he died in 2015. Actually, yesterday was the um 11th anniversary of his death. And my grandma died just before I was two, so I didn't really get to know her on my mum's side, and my dad's parents died years and years ago. There you go, family history. But my granddad, he was so supportive. Like anything I wanted to do, he would never say, Oh, that sounds risky.

51:34 He would just be asking, Well, how are you gonna do it? Um, and if I complained about maybe somebody had said something, he'd be like, Oh, blow them, dear, you can do it. He was just the best. Um, and when I was writing my book, or whenever I feel a bit like, oh, I feel a bit nervous, I just feel my granddad's presence around me.

51:54 And before my granddad died, I used to feel that way. I used to feel like a grandmotherly presence around me. And there was once I was with somebody who is a medium, I can't remember which Claire she is, claire essence claire, whatever it is, clairvoyance or whatever. She's one of the clairs. And I thought it was my maternal grandmother because I got some kind of relationship with her because she died when I before I was two.

52:18 And she said, I actually think it's your paternal grandmother. And I thought, well, that makes sense to me. Um, so sometimes I just knew that she was around looking after me. And I thought, well, what if I don't just have them as presents floating around? What if I actually invite them in? So I thought, I want them to be on my board.

52:35 I don't want anybody that I can see in this real world trying to tell me about funnels and strategies. Like, I don't I don't want that. And so I decided to create a board. So on my board are my grandparents, my grandma and my uh granddad, and I just say my good grandparents are on that board. I talk about the ones I can remember.

52:54 I've also got Grace Jones and Beyoncé on my board because Grace Jones, unapologetically who she was at a time when people were trying to trying to squash her and squeeze her. Beyonce, I mean, obviously, why not Beyonce?

53:07 Why not?

53:07 And then a friend of mine who works in environmental stuff, she's an ecologist, this, that, and the other. She said, Um, have you thought about inviting nature to your board? Because we live in this world and quite often we don't consider the impact we have on nature. And outside my window, I've got a beautiful silver birch tree.

53:25 So I invite that to my board. And when I'm having, I try not to do it just when I'm having difficulty. So around the new moon, when I'm thinking about setting intentions, I'll invite my board, but I'm not as consistent as I need to be with that. But when I'm having strife, I'm calling an emergency board meeting with my good grandparents, and I'm saying, this is what I'm struggling with, and I'll sit and listen to their feedback.

53:49 And invariably their feedback is asking me, ask for help. Like you don't have to do this hyper-independent business all the time. And when you ask for the help and people offer the help, you damn well receive it. Don't do all of this. Oh, if you're sure, if it doesn't matter. And the profound guidance I get from my board, there's no strategist in this world that could ever touch the guidance they have for me.

54:14 Is that coming through in a meditation or is it like, are you hearing them? Are you seeing them? Like, how how is that coming through?

54:21 I would say that I hear it, but it's like I hear it coming from within. Yes, it's a very strong, guttural, immediate sort of thing before you even have to.

54:31 It's clean. Yes.

54:32 There's no fuzziness around it. It's it's clean. Okay. And when I get that, I've got to go. Yeah. There's no messing around.

54:39 No, it's the same as intuition, right? It's the an intuition ancestors, it's divine. It's coming from a higher place, it's always faster than the speed of light, it's always faster than thought. So fascinating. Yes. Now, let's take someone. Maybe, maybe we could use me as an example. You know, or anyone else who's productive, efficient, you know, has goals.

55:04 Uh, you know, I appreciate obviously never stops and doesn't know how to switch off. Look, no, the same on the same token, I intellectually and emotionally understand what it means to be present. You know, I understand that the foundation of manifestation is the present moment. But authentically, you know, I listening to you, I know, and I'm sure Carlson agree, I do struggle to sometimes fully switch off and be in that joy.

55:29 Me too. And I know we said off-camera first, you know, work-life balance doesn't exist. But you know, look, I think with anyone who's got kids, I want to look back and go, I I I balanced it all well enough to have that time with Humphrey.

55:42 Yeah.

55:44 What is your advice? There's no balance. There is no advice. So you quit this. So what do you what do you do then? You just accept what what what what what do you say to uh you know a high performer or someone in a job that and we say balance doesn't exist, but we still want to feel balanced within our nervous system.

56:01 Are you just saying that's just simply a choice that we say, look, I've got all this going on, busy, but I'm choosing to be balanced and joy? Like what what do you do?

56:11 You've got to be very clear, what are you working for? Because if we're just high performing for the sake of high performing, we're just going to be on the dreadmill, not treadmill, right, dreadmill of high performance. If you are high performing so that you can live a good quality of life, part of your high performance, part of your um, part of your key KPIs is am I actually creating room to be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor in real time?

56:39 So that helps with if you're somebody whose mind is right, I need to do this, onto the next, onto the next, I think we're totally wasting time trying to get rid of that. Yeah, it's about saying to that onto the next. Part of my onto the next is enjoying my time with my family and not making it a productivity hack.

56:59 When I hear people saying rest is productive and all of this, I'm like, oh my goodness, something as sacred as rest, we're making it productive. But if we make it part and parcel of our journey, that's one of our milestones of success. Then we can hear that chatter and say, Don't worry, I'm coming back to you.

57:13 But right now, my assignment is frolicking in the lovely beach near where I live.

57:19 So you design that you sort of design your perfect structure, don't you? And allow for time for nothing.

57:25 Yeah. Yeah, which is the thing is it takes practice. You're not just gonna be able to say one of the things about us high performers, we say we're gonna do this thing and we get up and we go and do it. We immediately go and do it. But because we're so used to that, that's what our nervous system has oriented itself around.

57:43 We're not just going to, right, today's Thursday, I've decided that I am now gonna take Fridays off and it's gonna be wonderful, and I'm not gonna think about work. Your system's not used to it. It's almost like slamming the emergency brake. It's a practice. What I talked about earlier on with titration, we've got to give ourselves time to adjust.

58:01 So we need to give ourselves reminders. I have been on this journey for goodness knows how long. Yesterday, I was putting myself through the ringer trying to grind out something. And then I just thought, this is not what you're supposed to be doing. My friend Lucy, who's also the person that told me about a decision, she was like, listen, there's no place you can go lower than the floor.

58:21 So just lay down on the ground and see what needs to happen. And I recognized I was trying to force something that just wasn't gonna work the way I was doing it. And I'm sharing that to say, for all that I know, my nervous system will still react to survival or threats to my safety the way it knows how.

58:44 Then I make a conscious choice and say, I'm not gonna react in that way. I have got enough about me to choose how I'm going to respond. So when you're having those times and you're like, oh, I'm supposed to be spending quality time, but I've got to do all of these emails, I've got to send this proposal, you can remind yourself that you can do that later, right now.

59:05 Your focus is frolicking on the beach.

59:08 I was gonna ask you that actually. If you your daughter's 19, if you took yourself back to her being two and you were doing what you're doing now, can you walk us through a very real tangible example of exactly that? Yes. What would you be doing? I'd love to know. So, like from your brain, you're a two-year-old who'd love to play with you, you've got an assignment, whatever.

59:26 What's what are you doing? So when my I'm gonna go to three, three years old.

59:30 When my daughter was about three, I had discovered journaling.

59:34 Yeah.

59:34 And so I thought, I'm going to wake up 15 minutes or 20 minutes earlier so I can do my journaling, and then we start our day. Small kids have got some kind of homing design device. When you wake up early to do something productive, they know it. Right? They wake up. Yeah, you're right. So she would wake up as well.

59:53 Okay. But instead of thinking, oh gosh, now I can't do what I've got to do because I've got to, I would give her a yogurt, I would make her a warm drink, I would get out her colouring pad, and I would say, Mummy's doing her writing, you can do your colouring. And so she would, she wasn't uh starving because she'd had a yogurt, she'd had something to drink, and she would sit, I would be doing my journaling, she would be doing her colouring.

1:00:13 I now have a 19-year-old who has a solid journaling practice. She wasn't neglected. I was a role modeling for her. She knew she's always like I'm clear, you're always my priority. But rather than thinking about balance, I think about harmony. Sometimes the harmony swings more in the direction of your work and you communicate.

1:00:35unknown Right.

1:00:35 So there are times a word, isn't it?

1:00:37 It's communication. So you say, and even when children are very small, they're not going to understand everything, but they've got enough of a they've got enough of an understanding, and you're also showing through your behavior. So it is, I have got this big project on at the moment. So sometimes I'm going to be working and I'm going to be very busy and I'm going to be very quiet.

1:00:57 And maybe I'm going to be in the spare room because I really need to concentrate hard. But if you need me, you knock on that door and I'm coming immediately. So they know that you're a priority. You say that to the people around you. I've got this on at the moment. The harmony is swinging more in that direction.

1:01:16 So that's where I need to focus my attention. But you're always the priority. So you're not just neglecting your life in service of your work goals. You're demonstrating that this is what's going on at the moment. And sometimes it swings the other way. I need you to pick up the slack in the business because I've got this going on and I need to focus my attention over there.

1:01:37 When we communicate it instead of expecting people to just see what's going on and adjust, we take out a lot of that friction.

1:01:48 That was everything to me hearing that. It really was because I do I'm so internal, I'm so intuitive. I can have a million conversations in my own head, and every day Coruscan will say to me, Matt, let me in. Like, what's going on inside? And she'll say, You need to communicate with me.

1:02:06 Just the speaking of it. I mean, you said so many powerful things, but if we just take that for a second and how that's just incredible. But then also when you said, Oh, again, I just love this, when you said having that busy period for you was like 18 months where you knew it's gonna probably gonna be more work than you maybe would have hoped.

1:02:24 Yeah, but it was there was a reason for it. And I think sometimes it's saying that that's okay too. Because to get to, if it's to get to somewhere, is to change the course of your future. And also remembering that as much as we're remembering everything now about our children at two, three, four, they ain't gonna remember.

1:02:45 They're not gonna remember like we do. It's gonna be a different version of different tale of events that they remember than we do.

1:02:50 Yeah, and it's about to what will happen is so even though they might not have a conscious memory, it's almost like seasoning that flavours them. Yeah. Yeah. And I love in my in my world, people talk about a lot about your nervous system and sympathetic nervous system and make the sympathetic nervous system a bad guy.

1:03:07 But we have a sympathetic nervous system for a reason.

1:03:10 True.

1:03:11 Sometimes we need that fight or flight energy to get us going. It is aliveness, it is a catalyst. If you think about it, when I talk about my 18 months, do you remember when there was a massive um ship stuck in the Suez Canal? Yes. Right? So imagine when we're deciding, oh no, I don't want to go in that direction anymore.

1:03:31 We're like that tanker or whatever it was in the Suez Canal. It takes a lot to turn it round and change course. Yeah. So we need to give ourselves that opportunity because we're doing it purposefully. We're not just grinding for the sake of grinding.

1:03:48 I've written down here instead of work-life balance, which is what I'm going to take away.

1:03:54 Are we calling this Tamu's wisdom? Yeah. There we go. Oh, I like it. Yeah.

1:03:57 Yeah. Harmony in communication. And what I loved about that is how the harmony swings in accordance with what you've got on. Like right now, I have an event in Barcelona next week. I'm like under it. I've got like deadlines to get stuff across to the Spanish team. And I haven't been communicating perhaps that as well as I should.

1:04:17 But now I'm going to say to Corusand, this is what I've got on. The harmony needs to swing here. Would you mind just like covering me? You know, now you're included. Yeah. Which which you are, but I don't communicate that enough because how's Corusand meant to know like the slides that I've got to do?

1:04:35 Well, I can just, you know, a silent squirrel.

1:04:38 And so I I had a boyfriend once, and he would be saying, Yeah, um, I'm letting you in. I'll be no, no, you think you're letting me in, but I'm standing at the window. It feels like I'm standing at the window saying, Can you open the door? And you're saying, Yeah, come round, come round. I'm like, No, I can't come round.

1:04:54 You've got to open the door. But again, this like life is one massive, great big practice. It's a practice. So rather than like feeling like, oh, he's internalizing again, be like, Do we need do we need to have a board meeting? Yeah, yeah. So that you start to practice how you can communicate that because sometimes we operate in those ways because our operating system has learnt we've got to do it all on our own.

1:05:22 Yes. And now you have a partner who is like, no, actually, even if it is that you are just talking me through what you need to do, that is also that's part of me supporting you. I want to support. Tosha Silver has got a prayer, the abundance prayer, beautiful prayer. And one of the lines in it is something about let me give other people the supreme pleasure of giving to me.

1:05:45 Yes. Like just a bit of offloading, offload your trailer, you know, onto me a little bit, and it just share the load, isn't it? Share it. Share the load. So I've listened to um Tamu and I'm like, right, just wisdom left, right. And center, how are people discovering more about what you do?

1:06:03 Yeah, where can people find you? Where can people help? You've got a book you mentioned to talk us through the book. Actually, yeah, before before we move to how and we wrap up this episode and people can find you. There is something I remember you saying about your book deal. Oh, yeah. And what your dad's reaction was, which I thought was fascinating.

1:06:23 Yeah. Would you mind sharing that? Immediately, I want to cry now. Um, so my dad is an artist, poet, singer, songwriter, but he didn't have the opportunity to really indulge in those gifts. He had to get a job, bills to pay, and all the rest of it. So I say that because he has a lot of creative potential that was untapped.

1:06:46 And so when I told him about writing a book, it was a congratulation. Sorry, I'm fumbling around because I'm just not good when there's tears on the horizon. And he was like, I'm so relieved. Because for him, it was like, I wasn't able to, but you are able to. And the only times I can really remember my dad showing outward expression of pride was in my written work.

1:07:18 I used to write poetry, I used to write stories, and he that was those were the times that I would see him animated with pride about who I am and what I was creating. And so, yeah.

1:07:32 And I think we need to also congratulate you on the story of you're a first-time author. Hey, house, multiple offers on the table. Wow. Come on, let's share this because this journey of yours, let's celebrate this success. What what was that?

1:07:48 I firmly believe that was due to the ancestral support I received in Ghana. So I had that experience in Ghana, came straight from Ghana, and a day or two later I was speaking at Mind Body Spirit Festival, where I met who later became my editor at Hay House, and she made sure she got cover at the Hay House bookstand because she had been following me on social media and she wanted to come to my workshop.

1:08:11 And so we were talking about book ideas. So yeah, thank thanks to the ancestors encouraging me to just be who I'm supposed to be. I was in the very fortunate position whereby I had five offers from major publishers, and Hay House just blew everybody out of the water with a deal that wasn't just monetarily like, oh my gosh, six figures, six figures, what's going on here?

1:08:37 Six figures, what's going on here? But they also saw me as a person, as an author, writing the book, and the package they offered was really supportive of me as a writer. And I was really worried. I talk about intersectional stuff, I talk about racism, sexism, patriarchy, capitalism, all of that. And I was worried about a publisher understanding that and allowing me to express that.

1:09:01 And they were just so supportive of me writing writing the book I needed to write. So that was, and again, it was clean, it was clear. This is the decision. Now go go past the road. Don't stop. Go, go, go, go, go.

1:09:16 Get out of your head and into your heart. I remember you saying as well.

1:09:18 It was it was so from it was so from my from my heart.

1:09:22 Which is so important when you're a I'm an author, obviously, as well. And you can intellectually think, what does this book, how does this book need to sound? You've got to speak from the book.

1:09:31 And not taking the voice and changing it, allowing you to be got to be your own voice. That's what I think we forget so much. Is that it it needs to be your true authentic voice. Yeah, speaking on the heart.

1:09:41 Yeah, I love it. I wanted women to feel seen, heard, and held that when they read that book. So it's like I can't, they're not expecting me to be a neuroscientist, they're expecting me to talk about what I talk about from the perspective women understand and can take hold of. Yeah, it does. So it does.

1:10:00 Everyone needs to go and buy women who work too much.

1:10:02 Yes, they do. Yes, because I've got more books I want to write now, and I need my publisher to know that I'm a worthy investment.

1:10:08 You are a worthy investment. Just your voice alone, you are. You are and that was even for the men up there, that was really fun.

1:10:20 He had just finished listening to it and he just he said it challenged him, but he learned a lot from reading the bigness.

1:10:26 Yes, well, they I can I can I bet now find you. Yes, talk us through that.

1:10:34 So, the best place to find me, I call it the friendship bench, which is Instagram. Come and find me on the friendship bench, that is Instagram. Yeah, that's where I share a lot of my stuff. But if you're a corporate person and you're thinking, well, how can we flourish at work? LinkedIn would be the best place because that's where I share most of that stuff.

1:10:51 And I'm I'm telling you now because I I need to tell people so that I feel like I can't let you down because unfortunately I can let myself down. YouTube. Okay. I don't know when this is coming out, but from next week, which begins the no, it's not next week, it's the week after, the week beginning the 4th of October or whenever it will be, I will be sharing YouTube videos every week talking about how we can flourish in our day-to-day lives.

1:11:22 Oh, I love this.

1:11:24 Now we have one final question that we ask every guest. We do, and it's going to ask you.

1:11:30 Yes. Well, obviously, we've called this podcast Beyond Podcast. So, what does it mean to you to go beyond? And that can be in any capacity, by the way.

1:11:37 What it means for me to go beyond is to be in relationship with God, universe, ancestors, whatever the larger creative being or entity of your understanding is, is to be in relationship with that. To trust that. And I say that, I know you were looking for succinct, so I'm gonna make it succinct. My book deal is an example of me being in complete trust beyond my imagination because my imagination thought I was gonna get a £10,000 book deal.

1:12:17 Yeah, the powers that be. I take them all. God, universe, ancestors said, My child, you have worked really hard. You have got so much more to give. I'm going to go beyond your imagination and provide. That was an amazing, honestly.

1:12:36 Tamu, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And you know, from Kate the Colour, purple, uh, violet, divine. They're the divine colours. They are they're crowned chakra, and you know, in third eye. And purple is corresponding soul shade.

1:12:52 Oh, really?

1:12:54 So and you can find out your soul shade. Thank you, Tammu. That was so fascinating. Thank you.

1:13:00 Thank you.