Big Blue Kickoff Live 10/22 | Key Matchups vs. Texans

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0:26 Hello, everybody.

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0:28 Welcome to Big Blue Kickoff Live presented by Cadillac, the official luxury vehicle of the Giants. John Schmelke joined by Jonathan Casillas in the Giants podcast studio presented by Hackensack. Meridian Health, keep getting better. Giants taking on the Houston Texans this week. Texans 2-4, though they've won two straight, including a really high-level football game against the Jaguars in London last week.

0:47 That game looked like a playoff game. Really well played.

0:49 Giants coming off a game where they mounted a furious comeback, had one chance at the end zone at the end of the game, couldn't complete the pass. They tied the previous week, so they're looking for their first win in three weeks coming up this Sunday.

1:02 JC, how are you, bud?

1:03 I'm good, man. I'm good. Last time I spoke to you, the Giants were 3-1, and everything was looking great, and they haven't won a game since.

1:10 Still have a game and a half lead, first place, NFC East.

1:13 And I was so happy about that.

1:14 Right.

1:15 I was like, they all lost. Giants still lead the NFC East. I love it. I love it.

1:19 Did you see the crazy stat this week from ESPN?

1:22 Where it's the first time in the history of the National Football League where for two consecutive weeks, every team in a division didn't win?

1:31 Or didn't win. Yeah, right.

1:32 Right.

1:32 Because of time. No, I didn't see that.

1:34 It's a crazy stat.

1:35 I knew that happened. I just didn't know that that was the first time.

1:38 First time ever.

1:39 Why are the Giants always a part of something like that?

1:42 At least they were one of the teams that tied and didn't lose both the weeks.

1:46 So that's a win.

1:48 That's interesting.

1:49 I'm doing air quotes.

1:49 But that's interesting. But again, because the Giants are kind of figuring out what's going on after you lost your best offensive player and your best defensive player this year. And the Giants still stood at the top of the division. So I think that's pretty promising right now. It's still early in the year. But listen, they got a tough task this week. This team is not 2-4. This is not a 2-4 team. This is a 2-0 team the last two weeks.

2:12 And you should make believe you're playing a 4-2 or a 5-1 team.

2:14 Yeah.

2:14 Because that's what the talent is.

2:16 This team is 2-0 in the last two weeks. That's correct. This Houston, Texas team. And they look like that, Schmelke.

2:20 Yeah.

2:20 They don't look like they started 0-4.

2:22 They beat one of the best teams in football last week in the Jaguars in London.

2:25 So, okay, so let's... Let's get into all the changes and things that are going on in the context of the Texans matchup. We've talked about the move from Jameis to JJ. Now, I guess yesterday the news wasn't official yet, right? So I guess we should start there. Before we talk about the Texans context. My quick thoughts on the issue is that I think they believe that J.J. gives them the best chance to win. I think the reasons are twofold.

2:51 I think you had too many plays last week where there were easy completions to be made and Jameis just failed to get the ball where it needed to go. Just in terms of accuracy, just missing open guys on easy plays that could have turned into big plays. And then I do think that the hope is that J.J. 's ability to run... maybe unlocks the Giants' issues running the football a little bit. Not just the quarterback run game, but just his presence and his ability, you know, allowing or preventing the opponent's backside edge or linebackers from, you know, just really pushing in and collapsing the backside of some of these plays. So that's my thought here. I would have understood if they decided, look, give him another two weeks,

3:33 get to the bye. Matt Nagy spoke. He said, look, we're giving him 100% of the playbook. We think he's ready to go. Your thoughts on the move overall, JC, before we start focusing in on the Texans.

3:42 It's an interesting move. I won't know if I like it probably until the end of the season.

3:47 You coward.

3:49 You're supposed to state a strong opinion without any evidence or facts backing it up.

3:54 So I will take, like I would say my pros and cons for both, right? You know who Jameis Winston is. That's the thing about Jameis. You know who he is. This year he has his ups and downs. And we talked about this earlier in the season where he had some downs and he didn't go up yet. And then since then, he had some ups. And we've seen him throw the ball miraculously multiple times this season and lead some comebacks, right, throughout this season to where the Giants had to, you know, win late with defense but because of Jameis. arm you know talent in the second half of these games right we've seen that but that's who he is we know we're going to get that from him and uh last week's game there was no ebb

4:33 and flow there was only him going not good for the first half of the game and you know even the first drive uh you know not being able to complete the ball the the giants have struggled in the first halves of games.

4:44 If he completes that third down pass the likely he might still be running There was no safety there.

4:50 The Giants have struggled under Jameis Winston. Because J.J. McCarthy, he didn't start the second half. He started later. I mean, they put him in later. But the first half of last game, the second half start of last game were terrible drives for the Giants. The week before, same thing. The Giants are not starting the halves well. And they're getting themselves in a situation. Now, last week, they were able to score some points better. You know, they were up 10, and then the second half, the fumble, the snowball, the penalties that happened right out of the half. Like, again...

5:20 And I think you've got to put that on Jameis, you know, as the quarterback, as the leader, as the guy that sets the tone, the tempo. So for me, I think those are the negatives for, you know, somebody like Jameis. The positives is his, you know, locker room, his experience, right? He's a people guy, right? Everybody loves him.

5:37 Even when he plays bad, everybody loves him.

5:39 He was the captain as a backup. I think that tells you what you need to know.

5:41 So his leadership, those are the pros. And I think we know his cons, right? Now J.J. McCarthy, for him, he's very young and inexperienced. They didn't want him over there in Minnesota.

5:50 Only 10 starts, by the way, to your point.

5:51 He's very young and inexperienced. They didn't want him in Minnesota. He was a first-round draft pick. They got rid of him, right? Those are not good things to talk about a very talented quarterback, which I think he is. He does have arm talent. We saw that a lot in the second half.

6:05 That step-up deep post was an unbelievable throw.

6:09 Amazing throws. He has pocket presence, which we saw in that second half. and then his ability to run the football. So for me, I want to go like this because I love Jameis. And that's why I'm like, I don't know, but J.J. has to play well.

6:21 Yeah, I'm with you.

6:23 And it is a J.J. McCarthy experience too because his first drive was not good. He threw a pick, right, the first drive, the second, third play, second, third throw, and then he threw not great passes that were– Right. Yeah. So you already know. So we watched the same tape.

6:38 His first pass on the next drive after that pick was when you just threw it up to Charlie Jones, underthrew it. And if Charlie Jones doesn't grab the guy's arm and pin it to his side, that's probably a pick too.

6:48 So we're going to have a J.J. McCarthy experience now.

6:50 And by the way, and that's what it was, what it was like in Minnesota last year. Now, Another quarter, another year, new offensive system, different coaches. Maybe it gets better.

6:59 We'll have to wait and see. But I'm with you.

7:01 I thought there was a good argument going in either direction, and I would have understood no matter what direction they went.

7:05 I said that on Tuesday when we had this discussion with Mark.

7:09 And now let's bring it to the game here, JC, because as much as the focus on the quarterback position, to me, that's not the most important part of this game. And Matt Nagy just said it outside. And this was the quote. You cannot be a one-dimensional offense when you're playing the Houston Texans. You have Will Anderson sitting out there on one side. You got Daniil Hunter sitting over there on the other side. And by the way, your offensive tackles are banged up. No practice for Marcus Bowe yesterday.

7:39 No practice for Andrew Thomas yesterday. No practice for Jermaine Illuminor yesterday. I didn't know that. So now Andrew Thomas, that's been the case the last three or four weeks and he's ended up playing. So I would think that same thing is going to happen again. Illuminor kind of went down to game day last week, didn't go. You hope with the caffeine go this week, but don't like the fact he didn't practice today. But against those guys and a young, inexperienced quarterback, to your point, if you're thrown at 45 to 50 times in this game, it's game over.

8:08 Like you're not winning. You're just not.

8:10 And look, the Texans have been susceptible to some stuff through the air, and I'll get to that. But JC, you've got to figure out a way to run the football. And the Giants have not run the football nearly well enough the last three weeks. Now, is that rotating running backs? You can't get into a rhythm? Is it backup blocking?

8:26 Is it scheme? Is it everything together?

8:28 I think it's probably number three, to be honest with you. I think there's a little bit of everything going on in there.

8:33 You have to run the ball.

8:34 I'm curious from what you've seen watching the tape, why hasn't the run game been able to get unlocked over the course of that last three weeks? And do you think McCarthy being added into that formula as a potential runner could help unlock that a little bit?

8:45 I think it's actually D, all of the above. I think it's all of those things. I think the Giants start the season out with a mobile quarterback, a guy that they can you know, incorporate in the run game a stable of backs. You know, it was never going to be one guy getting 25 carries. It was never that, including Dart, right? We don't want him carrying the ball as much.

9:04 I agree, but I'm not sure you wanted four guys getting six carries.

9:07 No, no, no. But rotating, whether two guys or three guys.

9:11 Sure.

9:11 I don't see more than three, right? Two guys definitely running the ball. Tracy being more of the, you know, throw the ball to him. And Singletary, too, because he's also good on third down.

9:18 And by the way, to the point, I understand the point that Harbaugh made last week, too. The reason they're rotating four guys is because nobody was good enough to say, look, I deserve 17 of these. So someone step up and take that job.

9:30 That's exactly what he said. So because they haven't stepped up right off of what Harbaugh has said, the Giants don't have an identity offensively yet. And that's what they have to get to. And yes, it's not the same as it started because you have a different quarterback. Right now you have your second, your third different quarterback this year that you have to play with. Verily similar playing skill set, right, of your starter from week one in Jackson Dart. So maybe you can kind of go back to the things that you thought you could do at the beginning of the season.

10:00 What's the run game identity, right? I think I get what you're saying with the quarterbacks. You have your third quarterback. How are you supposed to get an identity in the pass game? No, that's what I'm talking about, too.

10:08 Offensively in general, Schmel.

10:10 But I feel like traditional run game, because not every running play has a quarterback element to it, right?

10:14 Indeed.

10:15 It just doesn't.

10:15 Indeed.

10:16 So.

10:17 What do you think they eventually lean into here to try to find their identity in that traditional run game?

10:24 Listen, the old line being banged up, that's not good.

10:27 No, it doesn't help.

10:28 You know, not having a feature back where you know you're going to say, hey, we're going to give him these type of runs. We're going to give this guy these type of runs.

10:34 You've also swapped centers too, by the way.

10:35 That's what I'm saying. The whole old line is that for me is like, this is not... how the Giants anticipated things to go. And that's why they're kind of stuck at being a team that ran the ball, I think, very efficiently early in the season, the first couple games. And then after that, the Giants have gone had to get away from it. It's not that they wanted to, they had to get away from it. They had to throw the ball a lot in the second half for the last few weeks because.

11:01 Last two weeks, yes.

11:01 Yeah, you know, so they had to get to that because they were down in some of these games. So, you know, I think for me, and this is just trying to think about the ebb and flow of games, right? How do games go? The Giants have to start faster. offensively and defensively defensively against arizona they was able to run the ball right down the field against the giants defense you know that changes when you when you can start the game with a lead and you can start the game you know with you being able to establish your physical presence and not vice versa and that changes the what your thought process is as the game goes along you know but like like harbaugh said somebody has to step up i think tracy did a tremendous job

11:38 last week from a guy that did fumble early in the preseason, getting his opportunity to go. Yes, the numbers don't look great in terms of yards per touch, but he scored two times. I'm really happy about him because I felt like they kind of got away from him a little bit. And he had a really great first two seasons as a young player. And now he is the veteran, right? You got Singletary there as well, but he's a veteran player now, you know, playing and Skadaboo's a young player. As a young player, you make mistakes and it's not the fumbles. It's a whole bunch of other things that That go into running the football, right?

12:09 You got to have guys in it that you trust, you know, and I think that's why Najee's not here anymore. You know, like they want guys that they can trust and they can count on, especially when they're giving you the ball over 10 times a game, which if you're the feature back, you're going to get the ball over 10 times a game. meaning 12, 15, maybe 17 touches in both the run game and the passing game. When there's a game that only consists of 50 to 60 plays, that's a big chunk of the offense, and they have to be able to rely on you to do that.

12:36 Yeah, Logan, it's not going to be easy this week.

12:38 The Texans rank third against the run, yards per game, yards per play. So their run defense has been good. Surprisingly, JC, where they've been susceptible is through the air. They've allowed more 20-yard passes this year than any other team.

12:50 And this is not attacking the corners on the perimeter either.

12:53 This is all the stuff in the middle of the field, in front of the safeties, behind the linebackers, where you can find some of the holes in that zone-heavy defense that D'Amico Ryan tends to run.

13:02 There's a lot of cover three, a lot of cover four that they run.

13:05 So I think that's the area of the field here, and I think that's Isaiah Likelyland, where you can try to target him. But again, you have to protect in order to get there. And by the way, the Giants, last three weeks— tied for the nfl lead in explosive passes with the raiders so they've been.

13:20 Able last week was incredible.

13:22 And the last two weeks the two weeks before that jamis had five one week and four one week you know in terms of over 20.

13:28 Yards that explosive mark i think is over 15 but.

13:31 It's the second half though schmoke it's the second half that's fair too and this is the thing no you're right when you're behind the only way for you to come back in those games is get explosives But this is what they need to do. They need to do it earlier in the game so that could be a part of your offensive identity. Now, you talk about the run game. Yeah, who's the running back? Okay, we don't have a running quarterback with Jamison.

13:52 Okay, cool.

13:53 But you know what would slow those safeties down? They got to stay back. And remember, there was not-so-healthy neighbors in the beginning of the season.

14:02 Good point, too.

14:03 And then we didn't really know how good Likely was. He's phenomenal.

14:08 He's really good.

14:08 He's phenomenal. Like Baltimore, they done lost the gem. This guy's phenomenal. Those catches that he had, the routes that he run, he's not that big. He's not that fast. But he plays basketball out there. And he's a better basketball player than everybody on the field.

14:24 Well, he's quick. To your point, basketball, that change of direction.

14:28 Yeah.

14:28 And then he boxes you out. Correct. You know, he uses his body. They throw the ball up. And if they throw the ball up, like he's coming down with the ball. He's likely to catch the ball. You know what I mean? Like, he is for me. Statistically, every year, he's never done what he's doing right now. You know, so it's like nobody truly knew how good he really was now that the Giants, the way they're using him is really kind of exploiting his skill set, which is the ability to get open, his quickness, right? His releases.

14:57 his ability to find spaces, his ability to attack the downfield safeties, his ability to catch the 50-50 balls. Like those are things that Baltimore never really showed us. And you can look at his numbers, you know, and Giants had an idea, you know, tip your hat off to Harbaugh and all the guys that worked on bringing him here and Nagy and all those guys. Like, they're using him like he should have probably been used, but no, don't worry about that. But they're using him now how the Giants need him, but they need to do it earlier in the game. That way it'll open up some windows a little bit and open up some holes and create a little bit of... apprehensing when the safeties are trying to think about, do I come down and fill

15:32 the run or do I stay back for likely a neighbor's?

15:34 We had a caller call in on Tuesday and say, maybe they have to throw first to set up the run rather than vice versa.

15:39 And that's what you're talking about, right?

15:40 You want to make sure those safeties and linebackers to an extent, respect those passes in the middle of the field. So they can't at the first sign of a run play, just come crashing down like bats out of hell.

15:50 So I'm with you on that. All right, let's flip now to the other side.

15:54 Texans offense, I know people, the lasting memory of CJ Stroud is what.

15:59 Happened in the playoffs last year.

16:00 Forget about that.

16:01 Which was an utter debacle. I mean, it was as bad of a football game as you will ever see a quarterback play. It was really, really bad. As bad as he was that afternoon or evening, whatever it was, he has.

16:11 Been awesome this year.

16:13 Yes.

16:13 Just terrific. Throwing the ball all over the field.

16:16 Since Nico Collins has been back, you could argue they've had the best passing offense in football. Jalen Knoll has come on in his second year, but that speedster out of the slot. Now Marvin Harrison Jr. is there as best buddy from Ohio State. This Texans offense is being held back a little bit by the running game.

16:32 I was about to say that.

16:33 And the offensive line. But man, this giant secondary and pass rush is going to be challenged by C.J. Stroud like they haven't been challenged since week two when they took on Matthew Stafford in the Rams.

16:45 I'm glad you said that. C.J. Stroud has been criticized, especially lately. But this year, if you watched him at all this year— He's phenomenal. He's thrown one interception all year. That was last game in basically a shootout in London.

16:58 It was a bad pick. Bad pick.

17:00 It was.

17:00 It was.

17:01 Against Jacksonville. But besides that, he's been phenomenal. He's been phenomenal. He's completing around 65%, 87%, 67%, right? He's not putting the ball in harm's way. you know, they're plus three in turnovers. I think that's like top three or top five in the NFL, which is when you look at the season and the body of work that you put together at the end of the year, when you can look at the wins and losses, it basically coincides with your turnover margin.

17:27 And they're getting explosives too.

17:29 Yeah.

17:29 Noel, Nico, by the way, I know he's not talked about this way. Nico Collins is legit number one.

17:36 Oh, yeah.

17:36 He is phenomenal.

17:38 Yeah.

17:38 Really good.

17:39 And then I watched him against Tennessee and watching him block two guys on a touchdown.

17:43 Oh, he's physical.

17:44 You know? So it's like they have a guy like you think of the Puka Nukuas, right? Amarase Browns. Those guys that are top tier number one wide receivers. And also, you don't have to take them off the field at all because they're willing blockers. Now, that creates a dynamic. For the defense, for the Giants, right? When the ability to be able to pass the ball, run the ball with the same guys, right? Looking at the Giants film, I do believe that they're going to attack the Giants run game. I think the run defense, I think they're going to try to attack the Giants run defense. they're going to look at the Giants to try to like, hey, let's establish our run so our offense can open up even more. And look, the Giants have to do a

18:23 good job of stopping that.

18:24 Last week, heading into the game, you sat there and you said, well, you know, the Saints have one of the worst rushing games in football. You should be able to stop them. This week, you went to the Texans game. Arizona 2. Arizona 2. The Texans have one of the worst running games in football. You should be able to stop them. Well, you couldn't stop the Saints last week.

18:39 And Denard Wilson just spoke to the media before we started. He's like, yeah, it's like our worst tackling game of the year. You go back, tape agrees with that. And just The fundamentals in the run game were not great. I love talking to you about that. Where do you see the biggest issues right now with the Giants' run defense?

18:54 Why have we seen it struggle over the past couple weeks?

18:57 They're not doing, like, the basic fundamentals, like, the attacking of blockers. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't think they're doing that on a consistent basis.

19:06 Except our bowlers.

19:07 Yeah.

19:08 Alvarez. But even him, he's young. He's not always in the right position all the time.

19:12 Of course, of course, of course.

19:13 You know, Abdul Carter, you know, he's not as big as Burns is. You know what I'm saying? Kayvon Thibodeau, he's not a big guy either.

19:20 Is it my imagination? And I haven't looked at the actual numbers. I probably should. Maybe I'll do it for the pregame on Sunday. I feel like Carter's been out of the game on early downs a little bit more the last couple of weeks.

19:29 Yeah.

19:29 Do you think that's true?

19:30 I kind of got a feeling of that a little bit because.

19:34 Let me see if I can figure that out.

19:35 Because, I mean, if you look at him, he doesn't look like a threatening defensive end in the NFL. You know what I mean? Like, he's a slim guy.

19:43 Just size wise you're talking about he's a slim guy.

19:46 Um you know and and his quickness is his um it's his main part of his game not for being a run stopper you know and i think these offenses are trying to exploit that from guys like cave on and and um and carter that play on the outside are that are not the big run stopping imposing defensive ends but that if you double-team them, they'll still split it.

20:09 And I think they're just not getting a lot of knockback from the guys up front, especially on the edges. And when you have that issue, they get attacked early in games. You start getting creases. Safety, you start trying to overrun plays, and so they're overrunning. The cutback is there, and then you have to tackle on the outside. One missed tackle is a big play. And Kamara, look, he's a guy that is one of, I think, the smoothest.

20:33 He's just so nice to see when he runs the ball, but I hated watching him do it against the Giants defense. You know, but the Giants have to do a better job on the fundamentals of run stopping, you know, setting edges, building walls and running to the football. And they do most of those things while they run into football. I think they do at well set edges. But when I say build the wall, Schmelke, that means you have to have a line that they can't cross. The Giants give up a lot of levels, meaning the offense are looking for levels, right? The running back are looking for different levels, right?

21:09 The linebacker's three yards down the field. The tackle got penetration, so there's a gap between the linebacker and the tackle from the A gap to the B gap. These running backs in the NFL are too talented. They're going to see those levels. They're going to see those creases. The Giants have to do a better job, Smoke, in building the wall. They haven't done a good job at that.

21:29 At times, you see Arvel Reese. He go ahead and penetrate the line, but if the D tackle's sitting at the line of scrimmage and he's two yards behind the line of scrimmage, That's another level. That's another level that the running back can either cut back or bounce around. And they have to do a better job in being on the same level, getting to the line of scrimmage, using your hands, and then allowing your unblocked players like your corners and your safeties to make tackles where they're supposed to make tackles at, and not seven or eight yards down the field.

21:57 All right, so the last two weeks, the Giants have played 61st down snaps on defense. I'm assuming that's, you know, they have four players that have played 60, and that's the max. I'm assuming those guys, and that's like recent Edmonds and Tay Banks that never leave the field in Holland. So they've had four players play 61st down snaps over the last two weeks. Abdul Carter played 41. So he's off the field for about a third of the first down.

22:21 So I just looked it up.

22:23 That is a little less than his percentage off the field on second down. I didn't even look up third down, but I guarantee you Carter's on the field.

22:28 80%, if not 90%, maybe 100%. You know what?

22:32 Let me check. Let me check. I'm curious.

22:34 What's your guess? 85% up?

22:35 I'm going to say 95%. It might be 95%. All right, let's see. Third down. I'm curious. Of course, now it's not going to load quickly.

22:44 That's me.

22:44 But....

22:46 My kids at Hudson Catholic think I don't know how to do anything computer-wise because the internet always does that to me. I say, hey guys, look at this real quick.

22:54 And then it doesn't work.

22:55 Right.

22:55 But yeah, so I'm with you. And I think that's because you have seen some of those outside runs run right at him on the edge. And I think you've seen him get blocked a couple of times on those, but I know that's a big thing that he's trying to get better at. That's really important to him to get better at. I know he's putting a good effort into it, but he's just not the biggest guy.

23:12 Right.

23:13 So third downs, let's say we have 27 third down snaps over the last two weeks.

23:18 Carter's played 26 of them.

23:18 Yeah.

23:20 Sounds about right. Yeah, whatever it is.

23:22 It's a lot.

23:24 I think technically that's 96%. But yeah, so probably 97. But yeah, so that to me, you have to stop.

23:33 Doing early downs. And look, your corner's going to get.

23:36 Tested this week. Your safety is going to get tested this week. Your linebackers in the middle of the field are going to get tested this week. And The defense has just been really good in spurts, and I think I'm curious to see if they can keep some of those explosives off the board. That's the one thing this Giant defense has been really good at. I think they're tied for fifth in the league in fewest explosive pass plays allowed. It's either 20-yard pass or 15-plus-yard pass. I don't remember which one.

23:58 And the Texans are in the top of the league in terms of getting those explosive plays.

24:01 So, Cam, you know, they haven't faced the best quarterback-wide receiver combinations the last few weeks.

24:08 Titans, Cardinals, Commanders. I think I'm forgetting one.

24:12 No.

24:12 If I forget one team in there, who am I forgetting? Titans, Cardinals, Commanders. What's the other team I'm forgetting that they just played? Saints.

24:21 Saints. Okay, yeah. I was lost. I was like, what?

24:24 They have a lot there. But they've done a good job of keeping those explosives off the board. I'm going to see if they can do that against the Texans this week.

24:31 The Giants have thrived in their wins of taking the ball away. You know, they only got one takeaway last week.

24:36 Do you know how many giveaways they've had the last three weeks?

24:38 I know they had four last week.

24:40 They've had nine in the last three weeks.

24:42 In the last three weeks.

24:42 Hard to win that way.

24:43 Very hard. And the Giants are minus three on the year, if I'm not mistaken.

24:48 And they were plus three as of two weeks ago.

24:50 Right. So that flip is why you haven't won a game in two weeks.

24:53 That's correct.

24:53 If you want to look right at it. Remember what I said earlier. When you look at the body of work at the end of the season, when you can look right at the turnover margin, and you can look at the Giants' body of work right now and saw that the first four games, they were incredible. And then now the last two weeks, they've not been good at all, taking the ball away, and then bad at giving the ball away.

25:11 And that's not just the quarterback, too, by the way. All the fumbles they've had.

25:14 The fumbles.

25:14 Multiple fumbles from multiple positions. Right? Special teams and the running back position. So the Giants have to do a better job. If they lose that this week, they're going to lose the game. You know, if they if they and if they do a 4-1 again, they're going to get blown out. You know, if they can't do that again, they can't they can't do that. You have to take the ball away. You have to protect the football. And that's just when it comes down to wins and losses of the NFL, the Giants have to do a better job of. literally focus on taking the ball away and then on offense protect, you can't give the ball up, you know, and I got a guy that's, you know, he's pleading for scatterball and I'm like, bro, you can't

25:49 fumble the ball. Like you can't do that. You know, and he's like, but he's so good. I'm like, yes, he's good. He's a fantastic running back. He's an awesome talent. You can't fumble the football. You can't do it. You know, your guy Tiki Barber, he got heat for years because he fumbled early in his career. And then he took off after he fixed a fumbling problem. And he was always a good player. Always a good player. But he had some fumbling issues.

26:11 He turned into a great player.

26:12 Yeah.

26:13 He had fumbling issues early in his career. I remember that. Being a young kid, hearing about the Giants all the time, seeing Tiki's name all the time. And then all of a sudden he fixed it. And one of the best players in the league after he fixed that. But then also, you become a feature guy if you can fix it. Correct.

26:27 Because they can trust you. Remember, I'll talk about that trust word again. They can trust you to give you 20 carries a game. Maybe not 20 carries, 17 carries and three, four, five catches out the backfield.

26:37 All right. We have no information here.

26:39 If I made you guess right now, which running back has the most touches, handoffs, and receptions this week for the New York Giants, who would it be?

26:45 Tracy.

26:46 I'm going to go Scadabo.

26:48 Because I think Tracy in the passing game. And I think they're going to be, maybe Scadaboo get the edge in a rushing game, but a slight edge. And I think the passing game, that's where Tracy kind of gets a couple more touches.

26:59 Nagy did say today he was very happy with how Scadaboo handled everything last week.

27:02 So we'll see what that split looks like.

27:05 And it might just be you bring in one guy, he has one or two really good runs, then you try to ride him. And that might determine who ends up getting the most carries.

27:11 How do you feel about that? Maybe it'll be Devin Singleton.

27:13 How do you feel about like kind of, Like not having the guy at running back quite yet.

27:17 I mean, in fairness, they kind of, Skadable was the guy for like two, three games. And the results weren't good enough. You know, they weren't getting explosive runs. They're like near the bottom of the league in terms of runs of over 10 or more yards. Especially if you take the quarterback runs out of it. So, I mean, I think I would go, I would probably lean back to giving Skadable another shot here.

27:40 I have to give him a week, let him settle down, figure out what's going on. And then see how that goes. But we'll see.

27:47 201-939-4513.

27:48 Giants 5K, folks.

27:49 5K race.

27:50 Kids run.

27:50 Presented by Quest. Sunday, November 8th. Hosted by the Giants Foundation. A 501c3 nonprofit corporation. That's who gets in the proceeds. You get a free t-shirt after the race. Post-race festival.

28:01 Giants Legends. Live DJ. Register now. Giants.com slash 5K.

28:06 If you hear that pounding in the background, by the way, they're doing construction again outside.

28:10 It's loud. So if you hear that, I apologize. We'll try to get that out of here when we put this up and we do it in post.

28:18 Pearson and Johnny will try to do their editing magic here to get that out of here. But it might not. I don't know how long this is going to be. Hopefully no more than another week or so. But they're building a huge extension of the building now on this side. We're built on a swamp here, folks. So in order to build a building on a swamp, you have to pound giant pylons.

28:35 Into the ground.

28:35 150 feet down.

28:37 And that's what they're doing. That's what that pounding would be. 201-939-4513.

28:41 Al in Minnesota has been holding since the start of the show. Al, what's going on, pal? Then we'll get to you, Lawrence.

28:46 Al, what's happening?

28:46 Yeah. Hi, Jonathan and John.

28:49 How are you?

28:49 We're good. What's going on?

28:51 All right.

28:51 Well, first, being from Minnesota, I want to say that I never liked the idea of the Vikings trading their first round for a fifth round pick. That was, to me, was not a smart idea.

29:04 Well, Al, I think they tried to get more and nobody else was willing to offer more was the problem.

29:09 Well, do you guys, do you trust your work, your scouting work on the draft prospects every year?

29:17 You have to trust them, but then you have to see what the guy actually looks like when he starts to play.

29:21 Yeah, because otherwise, Al, you run into a situation where you get guys on scholarship, and even though you drafted them high and they're not any good, you just keep them on the roster. And JC's seen that with teams, and I'm sure the veterans just start looking like, why is this dude still here?

29:35 Yeah, and if you can get value from him, you get value from him.

29:39 I have a theory, why did the Vikings trade JJ? I think, you know, in every team there are some ace players. who have a veto power, I think among the Vikings, Justin Jefferson probably didn't like JJ McCarthy too much. And I think that was a big reason why JJ was traded.

30:00 Well, Al, in fairness, he really couldn't get Justin Jefferson the ball either. So I don't think you're necessarily wrong about that. I'm sure, look, it just didn't work out. For whatever reason, it didn't seem to work. He didn't beat Carson Wentz out to be the backup this year. and whatever the— I' m sure there's reasons we don't know about, and that's how it always works in these situations.

30:22 Hopefully with a fresh start, he'll be a better player.

30:25 I think if JJ do good for the rest of the season, he will end up at least being a good trade ship for the Giants. Because after all, if he turns out to be a good quarterback, he's not going to be willing to be a backup quarterback for Jackson Dart. and probably he can be traded for potentially a high draft pick.

30:47 Well, Al, hopefully he plays well enough this year to make that happen.

30:51 Yeah, and what you said earlier about Justin Jefferson, I don't think... Let me take that back. I don't know if Justin Jefferson did anything in terms of the things that he said or anything, but if you can't get the ball to the best wide receiver in football, you can't play for that team. That's how I feel about it.

31:05 He's the best wide receiver in football. If you don't throw the ball to him, you can't find a way to get him the ball, then... there's no way you can play quarterback for that team.

31:12 Yeah, but, you know, he was injured for the first season and he wasn't given enough time to improve on that.

31:20 No, I hear you. What's your other point?

31:23 That's it, basically.

31:24 Thank you, guys.

31:24 Awesome.

31:25 Thanks for the call, Al. Appreciate it.

31:26 He learned that lesson. He showed us that last week. He got the ball to the best guys on the team consistently at the end of the game.

31:33 He did try to throw a bunch of Maokai fields, too. He didn't complete a couple of those.

31:37 Passes, but.

31:41 That third pick. I mean, the first pick was like, what? But again, the J.J. McCarthy experience, and I'm here for it. You know, I'm here for it because... you know, the last couple weeks for the Giants, you know, they didn't look like the same team for the first couple weeks, right? The Rams game, I think that was just an abysmal game.

31:57 It was, you know, your guy going down, you know, Jameis Winston stepping in, maybe he wasn't mentally prepared, maybe he wasn't spiritually prepared. You know, you talk about, you know, how he is all the time and how he talks to people, you know, how he addresses everything. But then after that, they looked like, okay, cool, this is a team that, you know, has some ebb and flow, they have some losses, but They protect the ball. They take the ball away. And we haven't seen that the last two weeks. So if the Giants, no matter who's at quarterback, if they can get back to that, protecting the football, taking the ball away, then we're not going to be so much on what did J.J. McCarthy do to lose or win a game. It would be look at this

32:36 collective win that the Giants had because they created two or three turnovers on defense and they protected the football. And we're not talking about who's playing running back because somebody fumbled this week.

32:45 Let's go to Lawrence in Florida. He's up next. Larry, what's happening?

32:49 Hi, thanks for having me. You guys are a credit to the giant organization.

32:53 Just want to let you know.

32:54 Thank you, Lawrence. I appreciate that.

32:56 But anyway, maybe you can help me understand something.

32:59 Sure.

33:00 Maybe it's me, but the play calling last week when they were doing that big comeback, at the first touchdown, they went for two points and they got it. At this point, all we need is a touchdown and a field goal to win. The second touchdown, they go for two points again. Now, if they don't get it, they need a touchdown if you'll go with Ty. If they do get it, it doesn't help anything.

33:21 No, no, no, Larry.

33:22 At that point, when they went for the second two-point conversion, they were down by 16 points.

33:26 16, yep. That makes it a two-score game.

33:29 Exactly.

33:31 I don't know.

33:32 Okay, say that.

33:34 I don't know. At the time, I didn't realize, I guess. It was me then.

33:37 Yeah, yeah, no, it was Larry.

33:40 It was 34-10. They scored the touchdown, the two-point conversion. That made it 34-18. And then they scored again, and that's when they tried to make it 34-26 to make it an eight-point game.

33:51 They failed on that. That made it 34-24, right?

33:53 That made it 34-24, and then they were a field goal and a touchdown away from tying it.

34:02 Something like that.

34:04 I don't know. I thought they needed, at the end, the way I was looking at it, maybe I misunderstood, they needed the two points.

34:11 To win it at that point.

34:13 Yes, you're right. Larry, they needed two points to win it. So on that final drive, they were down seven. Zvada kicks the field goal. That makes it a seven-point game. They get the three and out. They get the ball back down seven. Extra point to tie if you score a touchdown. Two-point conversion to win.

34:34 That was my point. At the second two-pointer, they didn't get it. Now, if they got it, then I thought that they could have had a touchdown field goal to win it.

34:46 No, no, no. You're right.

34:48 If they kick one there, it would have been touchdown and field goal to win it. That's what I mean. But if you make the two-point conversion, all you need is one score and a two-point conversion to tie it. So you only need one score instead of two if you convert that second two-point conversion. That's why you go for the two there. Do you understand what I'm saying?

35:09 Yeah, I guess. Okay.

35:11 And I thought that the onside kick, they did it a little too early. They were stopping them. So to me, it's.

35:18 Very hard to get them onside.

35:19 Let's face it. They should have just kicked it down and let it help them down. They don't have to go so far once they got it back.

35:26 And.

35:27 I'm glad JJ's starting because they kept talking about Winston's big comeback. But it wasn't so bad. You wouldn't have to have all these big comebacks.

35:36 I got it. I got it.

35:37 But anyway.

35:38 I got it. I figured it out.

35:39 Thanks, Lawrence. Appreciate it.

35:40 And I'm going to answer that. Bye. When it was 34-10, if they don't go for two-point convergence, it's a four-score game.

35:47 Oh, correct. Yes, absolutely.

35:48 That's it. And then because they went for two, it's a three-score game if they get all of them. If they get all of them, it's a three-score game.

35:56 And I think Larry made a good point.

35:58 Lawrence, sorry, I don't know if you like Larry or not. But the last two weeks have been fun with these comebacks. Let's stop going down two scores in the fourth quarter. I mean, can we just make this a little bit easier?

36:10 That's what I'm saying about establishing it early.

36:12 In the game.

36:13 And you know how it is, JC. I've watched a million of these games. You've played a million of these games. When you go up two scores in the fourth quarter, no one wants to talk about it. Defenses do take their foot off the pedal a little bit.

36:25 They just do.

36:26 Mentally, it's like that.

36:27 Yes, and the play caller too.

36:28 They just get less aggressive, let's just go play cover three, run quarters out.

36:32 There, it's fine. And offenses get conservative, which you kind of have to do. These are things that you have to do to preserve your win.

36:38 Exactly right.

36:39 And JJ, when you get put into that situation... Dan Orlovsky did a great job talking about this. And he joked, he goes, look, I was a backup quarterback. I got put into these blocks all the time. Like I'm getting put in down three scores.

36:51 And you know what?

36:52 When you're down three scores with like six minutes to go, whatever it is, you have nothing to lose as a quarterback.

36:57 Let it rip.

36:57 You can chuck that thing all over the place. And if you throw a pick, nobody cares.

37:02 So be it.

37:03 Nobody cares.

37:04 So be it.

37:04 So it's just a much different from a mentality perspective, playing the position.

37:10 It's much different.

37:12 Playing in a 0-0 game in the first quarter, then playing a game in the fourth quarter where you're down three scores. And if you don't score touchdowns quickly, not just score touchdowns, if you don't score touchdowns quickly, you're not going to win. So it's a much different thing. And in terms of the onside kick, we actually had this debate on the postgame show, JC. Tiki and I at the time both liked the onside kick. Papa did not.

37:33 Papa thought they should have kicked it off and tried.

37:34 To get the stop. My thought was... In order to kick off.

37:39 There and get the stop and have a chance to win the game, you have to get two consecutive three and outs.

37:44 Now, is that possible?

37:45 Sure.

37:47 Would I bet on that happening?

37:50 Not sure.

37:51 So that's why I was okay with the three and out because it gives yourself a little bit more wiggle room. You don't have to get two consecutive three and outs. You just have to get one. One stop.

38:00 But again... the likeliness of them actually getting the on-tie kick, I think is not worth it.

38:07 And I get that argument too.

38:09 Totally get it. But that's the argument, right? That's the argument. It's like, you know, at the end of the day, at the end of the game, it's like if they can make this comeback, they have to have time on their side, right? So if you do kick it deep and they get a first down, time is really not on your side. But field position is. You have the field, so you won't have to have those big plays to get down to the other side of the field. You kind of need only one play to get on the other side of the 50-yard line. So it's like, what do you do? I probably would have kicked it back and said, hey, defense, get a three and out so we can get the ball back somewhere around the 50-yard line.

38:41 Yeah, and look, the Saints also helped them out by throwing it a couple times in that fourth quarter too. When if they probably just kneel on the ball and let the clock go down, they probably don't lose that. They probably have no chance of losing that game at all.

38:51 You know what's interesting too? The philosophy of every single team is very similar in terms of when you get a lead, especially late in the game, you have to protect that lead. So your offense gets a lot more run happy, right? You would always throw the ball in second and long, but you're going to run the ball.

39:08 You know what I mean? It's a different philosophy.

39:10 Getting 40 seconds off the clock is more important than getting.

39:13 The first half.

39:14 100%.

39:14 But that creates these close games.

39:17 Correct.

39:17 That's how the NFL is. The NFL is built. The philosophy of teams to protect the lead is giving you basically the chance for them to come back. All you're trying to do is run the clock down. That's what you're trying to do.

39:30 Do.

39:30 You're not trying to score points anymore. Your thought process at the beginning of the game is to score points. Protect the football, score points as an offense. When you have the lead, meaning you have the points to win the game, it now changes to Let's see if we can get this clock down as much as possible, not score touchdowns, get first downs. That's your philosophy now. And we're not doing it through the air because that creates risk.

39:54 And you don't want to be risky when you have a lead. So it creates for the comebacks. And every team does it. If you have a Competent quarterback, if you have guys that are not laying down, if they're willing to fight, every team comes back almost every week. It's always close games.

40:12 Every week, forever and ever and ever.

40:14 Which is awesome for the NFL. But then again, as a defense, it's like, come on, guys, can we get that first down? Can we go ahead and pass the ball? Because you know you would have passed the ball in the first quarter. As a defense, you've got to look at it like that sometimes.

40:25 All right, let's go to Dylan in Pennsylvania. He's up next.

40:28 Hey, Dylan.

40:29 Hey, how's it going?

40:30 We're good.

40:31 So one of the things I want to say, just to get off the list, this is my first time.

40:35 Ever calling in. I'm 24 years old.

40:37 I've been listening for about a year now.

40:39 I'm a huge Giants fan.

40:40 It's just such a cool moment.

40:42 Thanks, Dylan. Appreciate you calling in and listening, man. Thank you.

40:44 The one thing I want to say is I'm.

40:46 Excited to see a ticked-off Cam Scadamon, I think. I think it really, like, I think that's going to give.

40:52 Him some juice.

40:53 I really do.

40:53 The O-line's got to.

40:54 Play good, obviously.

40:55 You think he needs more juice?

40:57 No. I don't think he can get enough juice, man. There is no such thing. You know, Jonathan, you're a player.

41:06 You know you need that juice.

41:08 And you know what? And Dylan, I think you make a good point.

41:10 I think Skadaboot does kind of work off that underdog mentality, too. He wasn't a high recruit. He went to Sacramento State before he went to Arizona State. So I see where you're coming from on that.

41:21 I buy it.

41:22 Yep, and another thing, so with the offense, I want to go, so J.J.

41:26 McCarthy, people are saying, I.

41:28 Hear all the negatives, and I love Jameis, I do, I.

41:31 Was riding with him too, I.

41:33 Always ride with all of them.

41:34 But I think in today's age, the RPOs, what you want to do, I look back to Harbaugh always had Lamar.

41:43 Not always, but for years prior.

41:45 In this new day and age, he's always had a mobile quarterback. And you look at the backups, they had Huntley. I think that's what they want to do, and I really think it'll help this offense a lot. I'm excited to see it.

41:56 No, Dylan, look, I think there's a chance it does. Even though he's a good athlete, JJ, I don't know if he's as good of a runner as Jackson, and it's funny. I think part of the reason why, and I guess it's a little bit of an oxymoron because we've spent the last two years talking about how Jackson Dart needs to slide and avoid contact. But his willingness to put himself into situations where there could be contact makes him a better runner.

42:22 Right.

42:22 If it's a quarterback and you're running and you're like, I need to get the safety, I need to slide, I need to get to the sideline. You're not going to take that extra cutback.

42:28 Right.

42:29 You're not going to try to cut back on the linebacker or the corner and then run into traffic. So I'm curious to see what. And again, I don't think we've seen McCarthy do that a lot. He wasn't asked to do that in Minnesota a ton either. So I'm curious to see, Dylan, what JJ looks like. as part of the design run game, especially on some of those interior zone reads where you're faking the outside handoff, then the quarterback can go up the middle. What does he look like? Is he willing to stick his nose in there like Jackson is? I don't know the answer to that.

42:55 I haven't seen it yet. So that's one of the things I'm excited to see this week. While he's a threat to run, is he as dangerous of a runner as Jackson Dart was?

43:07 That's a fair take.

43:07 No, no, I, that is, yes, I hear you there, but better than Jameis.

43:12 No, 100%.

43:15 No, no, I mean, Dylan, like, they ran one zone read with Jameis in like three weeks.

43:19 So, yes, I'm with you 100% on that. Anything else, bud?

43:25 I think the last thing I want to say is thank you guys. I will keep.

43:29 Listening in, and this is a cool moment, dude.

43:31 So, that's it.

43:32 I'm like one of the youngest diehard Giants fans out there. And to add that, I grew up around Patriots fans in Connecticut. Now I'm in Philly with the Philly fans. So, I'm going to keep on riding, baby.

43:42 Let's go.

43:43 I appreciate it, Dylan.

43:43 Good fight, baby.

43:44 Thanks for listening. Thanks for calling in, bud. We appreciate it. Thanks so much.

43:47 For JJ, the thought process behind him with the run game, he doesn't have to be as good as Dart. They just have to be willing to do it.

43:54 Correct. No, you're right about that.

43:55 That's fair.

43:56 No, that's fair. You're right.

43:57 Because you have to honor that as a defense. Like, if they're willing to run zone read or the RPO system, right, the RPO thought process, right, now that changes the things that you've got to worry about on defense. There was none of that with Jameis at the helm. There was none of that. None of that even existed.

44:12 Right.

44:13 But with him, he doesn't have to be as efficient or as hard-nosed as a runner or as fast or any of those things as a running quarterback accolades can have. But the thought process of a defense, of actually defending it, that's what you want. That's what you want. And you can use that same type of thought process as you had with Jackson Dart.

44:32 All right, let's go to Lennon Columbia, Maryland. He's up next. Hi, Len.

44:36 What up, Len?

44:36 Hey, guys.

44:37 How you doing? How you doing? Hey, listen, a little history. I think it was either Monday or Tuesday on the show, there was a discussion about options on how you might use two quarterbacks in a game. As far back as the late 50s, the Giants quarterback core included a guy named Don Heinrich and an all-time favorite, Charlie Conley. Heinrich used to play the first quarter and Charlie would watch.

45:07 And then Connolly would go in in the second quarter and have pretty good games.

45:13 Is that true? Is that how they did it back then? I had no idea.

45:16 Yeah, yeah.

45:17 It's far back. I'm going back pretty far now. I'm in the late 50s. And then Tittle came along and they quit doing that. But yeah, with Heinrich and Connolly for a while at the end of the 50s, Now, Len, real quick. He was a pretty good quarterback for the.

45:32 University of Washington. Yeah, Len, real fast.

45:34 I have a question. So when they won with Connerly, what was that, in 56, right?

45:40 Well, they won the whole thing in 56.

45:42 Yeah, 56.

45:43 And then they won the East in 58 and 59. Right, correct.

45:46 So those years, and they were really good. That's what they were doing with the quarterbacks?

45:51 Well, not for that long a period of time. It was a shorter period, not back to 56, John. Got it. A little later in the late 50s.

45:58 Oh, interesting. I didn't know that.

45:59 Okay.

45:59 Good nugget, Len. I like that. Good nugget.

46:01 Pretty interesting strategy.

46:04 I like it.

46:04 Pretty interesting strategy. You know, just the... You know, a perception on my part, and I'm just looking for you guys, what you guys are feeling or sensing. And let's do it by thirds. Top third in the league, middle third, and bottom third.

46:24 Okay.

46:25 It seems like our running backs get to the, you know, we can make jokes about this and they're getting hit in the backfield and so forth, but they're slow to the line of scrimmage. Now, there's only one McCaffrey. But I'm watching the Commanders and the 49ers the other night, and, I mean, McCaffrey is almost like going past the quarterback without the ball. He's blasting into the line of scrimmage, and it's not his power. It's the speed with which he gets there. Now, there's only one McCaffrey, so I'm not saying, you know, if we had a McCaffrey, we're not going to have McCaffrey. But it seems like, what do you guys think? It just seems like our running backs are... ponderous getting to the line of scrimmage.

47:10 It's funny you say that, Len.

47:11 When your offensive line is having trouble with the speed on the defensive side, and I talked about this the last time I called, Jonathan, these defenses are really fast.

47:23 No, Len, you're right.

47:24 Real quick, I just want to quote Tiki on this, because I've talked to him about this sort of thing on the pregame before, and I want to get J.C. 's take on it, and then you can continue. But Tiki thinks Scadaboo specifically... is actually trying to go too fast to the line. Where he wants him to be patient to find the hole, then hit it and go quick.

47:47 And he thinks he's a little bit too.

47:49 amped up for lack of a better term getting to that line and it's hurt his vision a little bit so he's not getting into the correct hole sometimes so I think Tiki would like him to actually be a little bit calmer getting to the line and then exploding to it rather than being a little frantic JC what's your take on that?

48:05 Len so it depends it's a lot of things that factor in right It's the offensive run style and scheme of what they're trying to do. Sometimes it requires you to get the ball and hit it real quick downhill, right?

48:18 Yeah.

48:19 A lot of these gap schemes, which they have pullers, right? those require a little bit more patience. And I think what Tiki was talking about was that in particular with gap schemes, you got to let these guys pull around to get to their guy. And if you hit the hole before they get there, this guy's unblocked.

48:33 And sometimes that outside zone, even you have to find the hole and then hit it.

48:37 A hundred percent. Cause if you hit it right now, those guys that you're reading, you can't read them, you know? So you're reading the middle linebacker, you're reading the weak side linebacker, see if he overflows or over pursues to the ball. And if you're hitting that gap, He's going to get to that gap before you, and you have no chance of actually fooling him or tricking him and cutting the ball back because he over-pursued because you were more patient as a runner. Le'Veon Bell was one of the greatest at doing that. He would start this way, let the guys fold, get to their gap responsibility, and he would cut back. You know, like, there's a difference. Len, real quick, real quick. Hold on, Len. I'm not done yet.

49:13 I'm not done.

49:14 Len, Len, Len. Hold on, Len.

49:15 Hold on.

49:16 Len, hold on.

49:17 Len, wait, wait.

49:18 Len, wait.

49:18 Len, wait.

49:19 Len, wait. Len, wait.

49:20 John, wait. JC wasn't done. Let him finish.

49:23 Len, that's the style of the run scheme. But then you have the style of the runner as well. That's why I mentioned Le'Veon Bell. Because Le'Veon Bell was more patient than other guys. And that was his style. You know what I'm saying? So Scadable's style is a little bit more downhill. So even that, he has to be more patient. There are certain schemes that fit for certain running styles. And that has to go hand in hand.

49:47 Now go ahead, Len.

49:48 Go ahead, Len.

49:48 Yeah, okay.

49:49 Here's where I'm coming from with that, Jonathan and John. These defensive linemen and linebackers are sliding off our blockers. I mean, they're just like butter. I mean, they're just slipping off them and making plays and stuffing runs. And it just seems maybe, John, it just needs to be a little quicker pace to the game. We're just not right now. We're just not blocking those defensive linemen. I mean, they're sliding off. Forget the pulling. Bill, let's play Powerball and play it straight ahead.

50:31 Straight ahead.

50:31 Okay.

50:32 But thank you for Tiki's answer. Again, I'm sure he's right. Let me say one more thing. Another thing on a history standpoint. Every time I see John Schmuck, every time I see Daniel Hunter, you know, he's been a Pro Bowler two different positions. I think he's in his 11th year. I think back to his draft year, which I think was 15, John, In the third round, we drafted a defensive lineman from UCLA who lasted two years.

51:04 That would be Ola Digizula, right, if I'm not mistaken?

51:06 Yep. Five picks later in the third round, the Vikings picked a defensive lineman named Daniel Hunter.

51:14 Yeah, he's pretty good.

51:16 Wow.

51:19 And then when you get to the fifth round, Jonathan Casillas... The Giants in the fifth round drafted a defensive back. I think they got surprised that. Who was the defensive back, Sean? Amos. Amos. That was Amos' draft year, too. And I think they thought he was going to be there, and somebody picked him three picks early.

51:43 We got a little nervous. Drafted a defensive back. We never could figure out if he was a safety or a corner. He lasted two years. And the Minnesota Vikings, five picks later, picked Diggs, the wide receiver. Wow, what a difference that could have been.

52:00 Hey, John, one question, and I'll take.

52:02 The answer off here. Please be as expansive as John Schmuck will allow you to be with this, Jonathan. I'm wondering how this changing quarterback actually gets communicated. Maybe you've been in a room or on a team where they've changed quarterbacks midseason. Is that something you've got some experience with, Jonathan?

52:25 I mean, I was part of the Eli benching, Geno Smith debacle. That was interesting.

52:35 That's one word for it.

52:36 Yeah. But yeah, how that happened, if I can tell that.

52:41 Yeah, please.

52:42 Ben McAdoo decided to tell us that after one of the walkthroughs that we had going into the next week.

52:50 Was it when you were doing corrections, like on Monday or Tuesday?

52:52 Yeah, it was something like that. And he said it, and everybody was very stunned and confused. It's definitely a different situation.

53:01 And I imagine not thrilled?

53:03 Yeah, it was definitely a different situation because you have a guy who I think 14 years at that point in his career, never missed a game, never missed a start at that point, 14, 15 years at that point. And It's Eli Manning. He is the quarterback of the Giants. And it was definitely different. So it wasn't received as well, you know, as a Jameis Winston, a career backup, basically, got brought in to be a backup, right? This, you know, in the last few years, maybe not career. He was the number one picker overall in 2013, 14?

53:45 Yeah, somewhere.

53:47 2014.

53:47 But like the last few years, he's been a backup. It's definitely different because you have a first round draft pick a few years ago who's in the helm. who everybody kind of knows has talent, and they don't really know who's better. Who is the guy? Because neither one of them are really the guy because that guy is on injured reserve. So the situation is different. I just know for one, the one that I went through, it wasn't received that well.

54:16 Were you on another team that didn't have Tom Brady or Drew Brees as a quarterback? No. Where you had a situation more similar to maybe on Tampa?

54:23 Yeah, Tampa.

54:24 I was going to ask you about Tampa. Okay, good.

54:25 Josh Freeman. Mike Glennon. Young Mike Glennon.

54:28 There we go.

54:29 Young Mike Glennon.

54:29 I think that's actually correct.

54:32 That was the first thought I had, but this is very similar to this, where Freeman was not playing well at all. He didn't have his ups like Jameis had had this year.

54:44 And.

54:45 Glennon, he was an unproven guy, but he showed some stuff in practice, and he showed some big arm. He had a big arm, definitely had a big arm, and he was unproven, but. Everybody was kind of like, let's give the young guy a chance because Freeman is not it right now.

55:04 You could tell you weren't going to win with the current status quo.

55:07 And I don't think that's, again, the same thing here.

55:10 Right. Because Jameis was playing better than Freeman was.

55:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has his ups, you know. We talked about that Jameis was an experience. It was a Jameis Winston experience this year. We got ups and we got downs. That year with Josh Freeman, we had a lot of downs. It was really no ups. We didn't win a game, Schmuck, at that point.

55:27 Right.

55:27 We were winless, you know, so we had to do something. Go ahead and get the young quarterback in with the big arm. It didn't really... you know, transition well, but I guess that was more similar to this than it was the Eli Manning benching debacle.

55:40 Two other things that Lynn brought up.

55:42 Always be careful finding one guy that got picked late that you passed on and say.

55:46 Oh, what are you doing? The front office stinks because you're not doing that.

55:49 Like 32 other NFL teams passed on Daniel Hunter for four rounds too.

55:52 I know, but I don't think it's a fair narrative.

55:56 Daniel Hunter in his final year in college played 80% of the defensive saps.

55:59 You know how many sacks he had that year? One and a half.

56:03 Wow.

56:05 That was the thing with him.

56:06 He went to the Combine, was a Combine freak show, had no production in college, could never get sacks.

56:13 I didn't know that.

56:13 And that's why he dropped.

56:15 Yeah.

56:16 Because they're like, this guy... He doesn't get production. Why would– he's not that– he's a great athlete, but he's not a very good football player.

56:22 Yeah. But you know what?

56:24 You get him in, you develop him, and boom.

56:26 And that's the thing. You've seen guys over the years because of what they look like and what they do at the combine get drafted so early, and they don't end up being the guy that they– look like they're supposed to be.

56:40 MJC, that's why the draft is so freaking hard.

56:43 Yeah, yeah.

56:44 I mean, I was undrafted. I played nine years.

56:45 How are you supposed to figure this stuff out? How are you supposed to figure? That's why football is the ultimate team sport.

56:51 100%.

56:52 What's going on around you, your coaching, what they're asking you to do. All that stuff. And then some other guys, it is like, all right, they just don't have it in them.

57:00 Yeah.

57:00 Right? They don't have it in them to be.

57:01 A great player. And then it's also scheme, right?

57:03 All of it.

57:03 Is this the right scheme for this guy? He goes to another team. All of a sudden, he's a phenomenal player.

57:07 And all those factors impact every player the same way. But how do you balance them, right? How does the scheme impact the player? How does the player impact the scheme? Like, all that stuff is just very hard to... to figure out going from college to the pros, which is why I love doing the draft so much.

57:21 Because it's really hard.

57:22 Yeah.

57:23 And it's fun trying to figure this stuff out.

57:25 All right, let's wrap things up with John and Cape Cod.

57:26 Johnny!

57:28 Hello, John and Jonathan. Listen, I just want to take a second and tell you guys how great your show is. Thank you. You make watching giant football more enjoyable, and you really keep the interest up in the offseason.

57:44 Thanks, John. Appreciate that.

57:46 Thank you. I just want to make one point, but before that I want to correct some history because I'm the old man. I saw my first giant game. When I was 11, my father had a season box in Yankee Stadium. And Dine Heinrich used to play the first series of the game.

58:06 Oh, just the series.

58:09 Sometimes they had a three and out. They would go two series with him. But he gave Charlie a chance. to look at the defense pre-computer tablet and TV stuff and see what they were doing.

58:22 Yeah, I looked at it. John, in 59, I looked it up.

58:24 So in 59, Connolly played 10 games with 9 starts. Heinrich had 7 games and 6 starts. So Connolly started 9 out of the 10 games he played in that year.

58:28 The year before.

58:40 Connolly, same deal. Ten games, nine starts. Heinrich had eight games and two starts. So, again, I don't know how you qualify starters in some of those games or whatever, but, yes, it does appear that Connolly did not start all the games that he played in.

58:54 For whatever that's worth.

58:55 Yeah, like I said, he used to go one series, sometimes two series, just so Connolly could get a good look at the defense from the sideline and see what they were doing. Anyway, the point I want to make is, for all the younger listeners, there's a great book, which led to a great movie, called North Dallas 40. And in the movie, Nick Nolte, who's really playing Peter Gent, the guy who wrote the book, makes the best line of the movie. He tells the owners of the team when he's retiring, we're not the players, we're the equipment. Well, the pendulum is swung from one side to the other.

59:38 And I think Phil Sims, who's as smart an analyst as.

59:42 He was a quarterback, hit the nail on the head.

59:45 Because of the union rule changes, the coaches are limited to how much they can practice and how much they can practice in full equipment. And I think this has led to the fact that a lot of these guys no longer can play 60 minutes.

1:00:03 And.

1:00:04 I'll take the rest of the discussion off.

1:00:07 Thank you, John. Well, as the former player, I will let JC address.

1:00:11 What did he say exactly?

1:00:12 Basically, like, having less of an off-season program, less practices and pads, less full contact in the off-season. Players have trouble staying healthy and, you know, playing like 60 minutes a game. And also, younger players developing, I think, too.

1:00:24 Yeah, I mean, in the NFL, you know, the last, I guess, 10 years or so?

1:00:30 Well, I think since the lockout in 2011, right? That's when it started to change?

1:00:33 Yeah, it trickled down, yeah, since then. Because, yeah, yeah, because my first few years I was in New Orleans, we had double days, and they didn't exist after that. But even since then, you know, we have full pads a lot. You know, we would hit. We would tackle. And when I was in New England, we went live tackling.

1:00:50 You'd live tackle.

1:00:51 Yeah, like they wouldn't do that anymore.

1:00:53 No.

1:00:53 You know, like, but I do think that, you know, the NFL, because they're preventing, they're trying to prevent injuries, I guess... I would say short term in terms of actual collisions at practice and things like that. I don't know if that's actually building the calluses that's necessary to, you know, finish the season, you know, and everybody's different.

1:01:13 You know, a guy like Ray Lewis doesn't miss a game. A guy like Rondé Barber, Tiki's brother. Doesn't miss a game in 17 years. Me, I missed games all throughout my career. Was on injury reserve my second year in the league. Missed my whole second year. I was always on the injury report. So, like, guys, bodies are built differently. Like, you hold up to injury differently. But I do think that there's a certain amount of callous that you need to form. To last for 17 more weeks that the preseason games and you got the playoff games as well.

1:01:40 So we talk about 25 weeks of 26 weeks of football from the first preseason game to the end. And I think it needs to be some type of callous that's formed in terms of the ability to bang week in and week out for a consistent period of time. And I don't know if they're doing it to the, excuse me, I don't know. They're not doing it to the strength of we were doing it when I was playing back in 09 and 17.

1:02:03 Giants-Texans Sunday pregame at 11. Kickoff 1 on WFAN. Tiki and I will have the pregame for you. Me and Moose are live on Big Blue Kickoff Live Saturday morning at 8.

1:02:13 Check us out.

1:02:15 And we have tomorrow noon. It's Datito and Sytac. Giant Huddles coming this week. Great Houston preview. That's going up, I think, tomorrow morning. Draft season's up there right now. Mark Malusa's with Judy Batista's up there.

1:02:26 Check that out, too.

1:02:28 And I should be talking to Drew Phillips today. That should be our player interview tomorrow. Coming your way in the John Settle podcast.

1:02:33 So, for John, I think you can see us. I'm John Schmunk.

1:02:34 That's all the time we have on Big Blue Kickoff Live, presented by Cadillac, the official luxury vehicle of the Giants. You can check out all of our content on Giants TV, our streaming app. Go download it on your favorite smart TV. We're in the Hackensack Marine Hill podcast studio. Keep getting better.

1:02:47 We'll see you tomorrow. Adios.