How to Hold Boundaries Without the Parenting Guilt

0:00 I want to get the best by them being self-disciplined, not by them being obedient soldiers.

0:04 What do you think some of the quote unquote hidden costs of bringing that parenting guilt into your parenting?

0:08 You're gonna make poor decisions, you're also gonna end up yelling because you're gonna go back on things, then they're gonna act out more, they're gonna take advantage of you because they're gonna use the guilt against you, and then it's just gonna be a crap show. Welcome to the Bratbusters Parenting Podcast.

0:20 My name's Lisa Bunnage. I'm a parenting coach, I'm a mom, I'm also a grandmother.

0:24 And I'm Amy Bunnage, Lisa's daughter, and I handle the marketing and planning here at Bratbusters. While I don't have kids, each episode we'll dive into parenting topics and Lisa will answer your questions. Let's get started. Hello, Sweetie Pie. What are we talking about today? Today's topic is how to hold boundaries without the parenting guilt.

0:42 Um, my dad used to call me Sweetie Pie, and I just want to talk about this for a second. I had my granddaughter yesterday, she's two and a half. I I'd forgotten about this. My dad, every single time he left the house when I was young, he'd say, I'd say, see you later, alligator, and he'd say, In a wild crocodile.

0:58 I tried to do that with my granddaughter. She looked at me like I was nuts. I'm gonna try and get that going with her. Isn't that cute? I love I remember as a little kid. I love that. You just gotta, you just gotta say it enough times.

1:07 Yeah, I will stick.

1:09 Yeah, I will. Anyway, I thought that was cute.

1:11 Okay, so what are we talking about? Well, this one is about holding boundaries and how that can feel really tricky for some parents because I'm gonna do an example scenario. You set a rule, you maybe see tears or frustration from your child, and you immediately cave because you feel like the bad guy, you feel like the bad parent, and you want to be that fun, connected, warm, loving parent for your child.

1:34 Well, the key is to be careful what boundaries you set. It's like you mean what you say and say what you mean, but be careful what you say, because you know you're gonna have to follow through. I followed through on everything. If I but I thought before I spoke, I was very careful. I thought if I'm not ready to follow through on something, I wouldn't have said it.

1:50 There's no way, no, there was no, what's that word, the the empty threats? I didn't have any of that. So yeah, just be careful what you say. Are you being fair and reasonable? I was all, and plus, are you accountable? If you're holding a boundary and your kids don't think it's fair, they should be able to say to you, Mom, I don't think that's fair.

2:06 And you should say, tell me why. And then if they're right, always give it to them. If you're on the fence about it, give it to them anyway. Say, you know what? You're right. I don't think I was being very fair. But I think to be clear, when we approached you with that, what was our tone? You were very nice.

2:21 Now, if they came at made a snotty tone, I would have said, uh, it's I'm gonna hold it. I'm holding that boundary, like it's gonna stay. But they knew, they knew. They they knew they always came to me and said, Mom, I don't think you were being fair with that. Can we talk about it? I'd say, sure, because they came at me with such a respectful tone, because they because they knew I was gonna listen too.

2:39 That's the difference, too. They knew I was fair and reasonable. And I was often wrong. So I'd often admit, yeah, you're right, I was being too tough, wasn't I? But the boundaries that you're gonna hold that maybe aren't negotiable are you have to get up and get ready for school, you have to go to bed at a certain time.

2:53 Um, you don't get up during mealtime. You do have certain boundaries. I do believe in that. Some rituals like like school morning routine, bedtime routine, and mealtime routine. I think those are boundaries you should stick to, okay? Um, especially when they're really young, especially when they're young.

3:07 Teenager is a little bit different. But anyway, um, so yeah, I think you should have certain boundaries, but then the rest of it are kind of negotiable. And but once you've negotiated it and if you know you're being fair and reasonable, then hold it and hang on tight, don't let go.

3:20 I think bedtime is one of those ones where I hear a lot of parents say that that is a boundary. They have a hard time holding because of the guilt, where maybe their child starts crying or saying that they miss them, and it just becomes this intense wave of guilt and they all of a sudden forget where their boundaries were.

3:37 I I I never ever understand that one because if you kids had yelled out to me, I need a hug, I would have said, You'll survive. Like that's not love they're after. It's just putting off bedtime. Okay. Now, if there was something traumatic going on with my kids, that'd be different. But generally, anything that they say after bedtime, they could have said before, right?

3:56 So I'm I'm spending a lot of time with my kids before bed. We're reading, we're in bed, cuddling, and then all of a sudden the lights go out and all of a sudden now they've got stuff they want to talk about. That's not love that they're after. That's just delaying bedtime. So it's pure manipulation. Unless you think they're sick, that's different.

4:11 I'm just talking about if they're just trying to lengthen bedtime. So they'll usually say something like this, I need a hug. It's not love they're after. It's not a love hug. It's a manipulative, I'm gonna stay up later hug. That's all it is. So yeah, just hold that line firm. Just hang on to it.

4:25 I think a lot of parents might hear that and go, well, that's a little harsh, is like my child's so young once, I feel like I should be cuddling them and allowing them to do that.

4:34 Fine, then don't complain about them being up till 11. You can't have it both ways. If you don't want to give in to all that manipulation, then don't. You don't have to. I'm just saying if you want them to go go to bed and fall asleep at a certain time, you got to hold your ground. But if you don't care, they can be up for another two hours.

4:51 The only reason that I ever talk about bedtime routine is parent parents don't want to do that. If you want them to be up till later, then just keep letting them do that. That's okay. I'm only I'm only trying to help you correct what you want to correct. Okay. If you don't want to correct that, if you're happy with them manipulating you and trying to lengthen bedtime and trying to be in control of it, then let them do it.

5:11 That's that's your choice. But you're not a leader if you do.

5:14 How do you find parents approaching it if they feel like they're the bad guy?

5:18 Um, well, they feel they're bad guy. Now, often they feel like they're a bad guy if most of them yell. Yelling and they just feel bad about themselves as parents when they yell, when they lose it, right? That's why. But if you're calm and you're following through with this stuff and you're connected, where's the guilt?

5:32 Where's the bad guy here? There is none. Uh that's really uh and a good example of that is the pool story. Um, you know, I talk about this a lot because it's such a good story. Um, if I do say so myself. Anyway, it's something that happened with a child uh and me, between me and this child who was naughty.

5:48 I had zero guilt pulling that kid out of the pool during the pool party. None. Zero. But then because I'm so good at connecting, that that was what was gonna work for the rest of the afternoon was my connection, not pulling him out of the pool. It had to be done. I I look at discipline as something you gotta do, but that's not what really gets you what you want.

6:05 It's the connection. So then I spent all that time connecting with him and he true, he was great. But yeah, no guilt, none whatsoever, none. But I know I'm fair and reasonable, and I know how to get the best out of kids. And the reason is I want I want to get the best by them being self-disciplined, not by them being obedient soldiers.

6:23 I don't want them just to listen to me all the time and like I'm telling them what to do and they're just doing what I say. That's ridiculous. I want kids to have high self-esteem and have self-discipline and feel like they have autonomy over their own lives. You you make whatever choice you want to make, but if you make a poor one, I'm right here to correct you.

6:39 Now, what do you think some of the like maybe quote unquote hidden costs of bringing that parenting guilt into your parenting?

6:46 Uh, you're gonna make poor decisions, you're also gonna end up yelling because you're gonna go back on things, then they're gonna act out more, they're gonna take advantage of you because they're gonna use the guilt against you, and then it's just gonna be a crap show. And yeah, you're gonna end up yelling.

6:58 It's gonna make it worse. If you parent through shame or guilt, let it go. You know, that's the past. Yeah, you we all make mistakes in life. You can't, nothing you can do about it. That's the past. Just say, yeah, I might have messed up a few times there. I don't feel good about it, but from this day forward, I'm gonna be a better parent.

7:15 And then do you want to touch on why you think it's important for parents as calm leaders to hold fair boundaries?

7:21 Uh, because we all uh life is about boundaries. You know, we're not allowed to speed, we're not allowed to steal groceries, we have to pay for them. Life is all about learning how to live within boundaries, okay? That's just life and how you treat other people. It's all part of it. You're preparing them for life.

7:36 So, and also they are children, okay. We all like to know what's coming. We like things to be predictable. Like in school, if you were to send your kids to school and recess is normally 10 o'clock in the morning, but they say, ah, today we'll do it at 10 45. It throws them off. They like routine. That routines are really evidently really healthy for you, like morning routines and all that kind of stuff.

7:58 They're evidently really healthy for you. Your brain likes it, it calms them down. Okay. So if you have routines and you're completely uh reliable, I you know, I've worked with so many parents who had, you know, they decided to do it's called more free range parenting. Is that what it's called? Where they don't have a lot of rules.

8:13 I think it's called free range. There's actually a term for that, and I'm not real familiar with all of it. Um, but anyway, free range parenting is when the kids make up their own um rules. They have no bedtime, they can stay up all night. Uh, it's it's not common. I mean, it's usually people who are oh, obviously they're homeschooled, right?

8:29 So free range parenting, but there's some but there's been some uh studies done on that, and they found that they don't function that well as adults because their life isn't free range. You know, we have speed limits, there are rules, you know. Uh stores are only open at a certain time. So they have a hard time assimilating into what you would call normal life.

8:47 And so, yeah, I think you're preparing your children for normal life. There are rules everywhere. You know, jobs have a start time and a stop time. Um, you know, stores open at a certain time, you have to pay for your groceries. There are lots of rules that we have to live by. And I think you're preparing your children for normal life.

9:04 And then I think one last thing before we get into the parenting questions on my end is let's say a parent right now is really struggling with that parenting guilt, and their child, when they hold boundary, just either gets really upset or maybe gets angry at them. What can you say in your head as a parent to kind of like help with the parenting guilt?

9:21 Well, you know, there's really not, this is again, is like how do I control my own emotions? Uh, whenever parents, and I get a lot of tears in coaching too. They'll tell me what they've done in the past, they're really upset about it. It's sometimes it's something, you know, big, other times it's not at all.

9:33 And I say, you know what? And I always tell them this and they they make some feel better. I always say, you know, I've been doing this since 2007, and I've never as never ever been hired by a bad parent. Um, why would a bad parent hire a parenting coach? You just didn't know. Now I'm gonna teach you what to do, and then you can do it.

9:51 I said, you just were doing the best you knew how. You just didn't know a lot about parenting, that's all. You're doing the best you knew how, just like everybody does in life, right? We all have things that we struggle with. You're learning. Plus, you only get one go at this family. You don't usually get two or three families to practice on.

10:06 And then by the time you have the fourth or fifth round of kids, now, oh now I know what I'm doing, right? It doesn't make any sense that you should know it all. The only reason I was pretty confident is I'd had tons and tons of experience with kids beforehand. Otherwise, I wouldn't, I would have been struggling too, I'm sure.

10:21 So yeah.

10:22 I think it'll be very interesting to see how I do one day with children because I've had the very interesting benefit of listening to so many different scenarios. So it'll be interesting.

10:33 Well, it will be interesting. But your brother is a dad, and he often does things that he just knew he learned growing up. So I don't know if he thinks about it, but often he'll do something with his daughter, and I'll think, gee, that's just what I would have done. It's quite fascinating. So it's kind of, you know, you you just sort of he was raised that way.

10:50 It just feels normal to him. You know, he's got his own style too. He's not like copying me, but it's just he obviously it was comfortable to him, so he's kind of doing the same thing.

10:58 So But I think that's actually such a good point because as you said, it almost feels normal. So if somebody else grew up with a parenting style that they didn't like, that is their normal.

11:07 Well, that's obviously, and I think it's easier to do if you liked it. So I remember growing up both my kids, they were pretty happy kids, and I think they both said they'll probably parent the way I did. So uh, but if you didn't like it, then you've got to make, you've got to make an obvious choice.

11:19 You gotta say, look, you know, I I don't want to do that. And by the way, you're not your parents. They did the best they knew how. I'm not defending them. I'm just I'm trying to be realistic here and say, when they were handed a baby in the hospital, they didn't look at that baby and say, I'm gonna mess you up.

11:32 They they thought I'm gonna do the best I can do, and they probably did, okay? You're not your parents. You know better because there's a lot more information out there too these days. So yeah, if you know better, you can do better. Guilt is not, it's never gonna serve you. Guilt and shame is never going to serve you.

11:48 I think there's two sides of that coin though. There's a lot more information, but there's also a lot more noise.

11:52 There is a lot more noise. Um, but yeah, and I can't really attest to that because I don't know what's out there. I've never seen what's out there. I stay away from all that. Uh, there is a lot more noise, but that's why you're listening to this. Maybe also, you know what I would listen to if I were you when it comes to parenting advice is there's if they get that person should have three qualifications.

12:10 Number one, they have to have finished the job. If they haven't raised their kids into adulthood, how the heck do they know where they're going? How could how do they know how to steer the ship? It's like taking flying lessons from someone who's never landed a plane. The second one is they have to have had experience with tons of other kids because I didn't learn much with my own kids.

12:25 It's all the kids, toddlers, babies, teenagers I worked with before I had my own kids. That's what taught me everything because I came up against tons and tons of challenging stuff. And the third one is they should have found parenting fun and easy. If they didn't find it fun and easy, how can they help you find it fun and easy?

12:40 Those are the three criteria. If I was searching for someone to help with parenting, that's what I would look for. And if you I have that qualifications, but if you don't like what I'm saying or the way I talk or my face or whatever, move on to someone else who does. I think it's important. It's a life skill.

12:54 It's not something you can just go and learn in college. A lot of my clients are teachers, principals, and child psychologists, they're really good at what they do. I could not do those jobs. Parenting is my lane. And they struggle with parenting. It's personal, it's not business, like they, like what they do with kids.

13:08 So yeah, it's uh, but yeah, you got to find someone that resonates with you and then just put your your sort of your trust in that person and just try it for three weeks, three to six weeks. Give it a go. If it's if you if it's not working, move on, find someone else. But you don't try and mix up a bunch of different parenting styles.

13:23 That's like trying to diet and mixing up, picking and choosing what you like from different diets. That's ridiculous. It doesn't work. And that's the same with parenting. I have a whole system. Like if you were to throw time out into my methods, it would tank. I hate timeout. I think it's mean. Um, I'm sure lots of people teach it.

13:38 I don't know who's out there. Um, but yeah, if you were to throw that because you like timeout and you like my the other stuff I say that I don't talk about timeout because I hate it. Well, I do, in that I hate it. But yeah, you can't throw timeout into my method. It would tank.

13:50 I don't talk about timeout.

13:51 Oh yeah, I don't talk about timeout because timeout is something I never say timeouts.

13:56 They never say the word. Okay. Would you like to get into the parenting questions? Um, yes, they'll they'll have a timeout from that conversation. Okay. Okay, we have Marissa from the United States. What are signs you've made it as a calm leader? I was raised in an authority style home and know my parents did the best they knew how.

14:10 Many of my siblings hold it against them and raise their families like pleaser parents. I can see the pleaser style isn't working for them. I'm trying my best to implement your method and it's going well, and I feel more connected with my kids and actually more confident in myself. How could I know this is going to be worth it long term?

14:25 How do you know this is gonna be worth it long term? Well, you don't. There's no guarantees with any of this. But basically, how do you know when you're there? You will know. If you're a leader, you'll just know. The kids will tell you everything. They're gonna feel heard, they're gonna have really high self-esteem.

14:36 You're gonna spend a lot more time laughing than anything else. There's a mutual respect going, and you're accountable too. Leaders are accountable. My kids could tell me if they didn't like something I said or did, for sure I would have heard about it. For sure. And I ate crow. I was very good at it.

14:49 I used to pick feathers out of my teeth. I'm very good at eating crow. Okay, so that you'll just know when you're a leader. You just will. It's not an authority, very different, okay? And leadership, they'll tell you everything with the authority. It's not a bad way to parents, the old-fashioned way, but they will rebel in the teen years or they'll hold secrets.

15:04 They won't tell you everything.

15:06 I think that you've discussed that before, where it's almost if you didn't like how you were raised, maybe raised by more of authority. It's like a lot of parents will ricochet into the pleaser parent style.

15:16 Yeah, well, they go, that's the pendulum swinging the other way. So they well, this last thing I want to do is raise my kids the way I was raised. So they swing the other way. They become pleaser parents. They want participation awards. Uh, you know, that crap, they'll hate all that stuff. Pleaser parent style is a total disaster.

15:30 It's going out of style, I think, now. But I saw it coming 40 years ago with participation awards, and I thought, are you freaking kidding me? You're teaching entitlement. What's interesting now is I'm getting those parents who were raised by pleaser parents, and they weren't happy about it. So the authorities weren't happy.

15:45 They were happier, I would say. The pleaser parent kids weren't happy. So I think leadership is the new way to go because that's what I'm teaching it. But I invented all this stuff, so I obviously I believe in it. But kids taught me this. I'm kidding. I've never read a book on kids, I've never taken a class on kids.

16:00 They taught me all this. Teenagers, especially, taught me all this stuff. How they want to be treated and how to get the best out of them, how to make them feel good.

16:07 Okay, the next one is Maddie from Canada. Not a question. First of all, I want to say thank you to Lisa and Bratbusters. Your methods have truly saved our family. My comment is after listening to your latest episode explaining what calm leadership parenting is. Lisa said she couldn't think of any examples in TVs or movies, or in TV shows or movies.

16:24 I was literally screaming at my radio, Mary Poppins, think like Mary Poppins. Yes, she's magical, but she stays calm in the craziest situations without taking any crap and connects with kids in their world. She's the OG con leader when the authoritarian adult fails. Another example I can think of or more modern is Ted Lasso.

16:43 He's the embodiment of calm leadership coaching. If you haven't watched it, highly recommend. He finds a way to truly connect with every member of the team. It's very heartwarming. Anyway, that's all I came here to say. When in doubt, think of Poppins.

17:02 I literally had tears in my eyes when you said that. Ted Lasso, I someone else mentioned that. I'll have to look that up. But Mary Poppins, when I was uh working with troubled teens, they often used to call me Mary Poppins. Isn't that creepy? I never could I never really thought about that. Yeah. Isn't it?

17:21 I didn't because I didn't know what that meant. I thought it was just because I'm so clean living, you know, like so conservative. I had no idea what they were what they meant. I thought it was just because I I'm cheery and I don't know. I never I'm gonna look that up. You thought it was because you had good posture and just I don't know.

17:36 I don't know. Maybe I have a lot of stuff in my bag. I don't know what it was. But yeah, they often called me Mary Poppins. Oh my gosh. Oh, I had no idea that she was a leader. I thought it was just because of the the the way she presented herself.

17:48 I can say, now this is just my perspective, but I've watched Ted Lasso and I can say there's a lot of similarities there too.

17:54 I've never I've heard the name. Someone else said, look them up. That's you. Uh some one of my clients said that. Look them up. Okay, well, I'll look it up. Um, and I must say too, in coaching, uh, a lot of clients say you're a lot softer in coaching. They said, you like it's like you like to act tough when you're talking in public.

18:11 Someone said that to me once, and I thought it's they're spot on, aren't they?

18:15 Yeah. I think as well, I it can be tough because I understand your personality, I think, inside and out. I know you very, very well. And yes, you're a big softy.

18:25 And but I don't like no, I don't like anyone to know it. I'm very my son's the same. We like to act tough.

18:31 That's why I love having this podcast, is because short form clips you can only get so much out of a minute or two. But I think during the podcast, we're able to kind of get into those nuances and details.

18:43 Yeah. And that's a little bit too much about me. But anyway, okay, so thanks so much for sharing that. The Mary Poppins. That I literally started to feel my eyes weld up, and I thought, oh, that's why they said that. Does that make sense? Would they have known that? What? Because I don't look like Mary Poppins.

18:57 I don't know. All I think is you used to call me Mary Poppins the way I rode my bike. Well, she did. She had this real cute posture when she was right. Her, she was so erect, like her shoulders were back. It looks like I was out of the 1920s on one of those bikes. On one of those old bikes, she was so cute.

19:10 Okay. Okay, let's get back into the questions then.

19:13 Okay. Next one's Megan from the United States. We have a two-year-old who throws tantrums and cries, and then we remove her from the fun or the fun from her. She'll come back 30 seconds to a minute later saying sorry and trying to get a hug from me. I normally do give her the hug and say, I accept your apology.

19:27 Is that wrong? Recent example. She hit her four-month-old sister on the side of the face, lightly, but still with intent. And I took her sister away in a different room and said, You can't play with her if you're going to hit her and fussed over the victim and asked if the little sister was okay. Forty-five seconds or so later, no longer than a minute, the toddler comes in crying saying, Sorry, mama, sorry, sister, kisses me on the cheek and asks for a hug and gives her sister a kiss.

19:49 Am I wrong to let it be forgiven so quickly and give the hug or kiss or let her kiss me?

19:54 It's not about being forgiven. Also, my question to you would be, is it getting any better? Is there any indication there if it's getting better? I would think it'd be getting worse, and I'll tell you why. Is it getting worse?

20:04 There's nothing here specifically commenting on that.

20:06 Okay, I'm assuming it's not getting any better because that's why she's sending the question in. So yeah, there's no way I would do that because as soon as you hug and kiss her, you're saying, good hit, good hit. That's what you're actually doing. That's what she's after. She wants you to validate and reward her for hitting the baby.

20:20 That's what she's doing. Um, it's not love she's after. It's just, oh, reward me. Yeah, I'll say sorry, but then I'm gonna go right. It's giving her free will to do it again. It just is. That's a message that she's taking out of this is oh, that was good after all. I got a hug for it and everything. You see, you're rewarding it.

20:36 You just are. You know, and then she says, I need a hug, and I and then say you're so I don't have them apologize. I just don't. I don't want to get into all that, but there's no point, nothing. There's no lesson in it. Okay. The words I'm sorry mean nothing. They don't mean much to me in adulthood either.

20:48 Like, what are you gonna do to make it up to me? That's you know, it's it's what you follow through with. But anyway, yeah, the hug afterwards is just you validating her action. That's all it is. It's like she's on the low road still, she's trying to drag you down and validate and reward her for hurting her little sister or little brother.

21:04 So, how would you approach it instead?

21:06 Okay, I'd just say nope, and then I'd remove her from the fun or remove the fun from her. And hug, hug. It's not a love hug she's after. Validate me, validate me. That's all it is. And then if she's having a tantrum when she's done with the tantrum, then she comes over. I need a hug. And then you just pat her on the back.

21:24 You're all right. Let's go read a book or something. See my tone, it's cheery, it's not like it's okay, it's okay. It's not see the difference.

21:32 I think that's important clarification. So you're not just fully ignoring after in the sense of you're not just like stonewalling and being like, nope.

21:39 No, she's all done with the tantrum. Then I remember when they're finished with a tantrum, then I connect again. No, I did a hug. No, you're all right. Pat her on the back and then go sit and read a book. She can crawl into your lap at that point, but you're not condoning and validating and congratulating the hit or the tantrum.

21:55 Because that's what that is. It just is. And it's how they interpret it. So don't ask me to explain it with common sense. It's just the way toddlers interpret it.

22:03 Okay, the next one's Courtney from Canada. Son is two years old and whines a lot. I know this is a me problem. I know I'm feeding it, but I don't know how to stop. He has a speech delay. He can use sign language enough to get his needs met, but when he whines, to get my attention. My mom said he doesn't whine with her when I'm not around.

22:19 When he does whine, she tells him to use your words. To me, that sounds condescending, but who knows? Maybe toddlers don't care about that. Anyways, would a leader say use your words, or is there a different tactic I could use?

22:29 Okay, I hate use your words when it's with bad behavior. It's so condescending. I know it was popular for a while there. I just can't stand it. I don't I don't want to hear anything anymore, but anyway, because I don't look it up. Anyway, uh, but I know that years and years ago there used to be this thing where if a toddler is mad or upset um that you're supposed to get on their level, hold their hands, get eye contact, and say use your words.

22:50 I think that's so stupid. How patronizing. Can you imagine if you're upset, someone says to you, use your words. It's just pat they are using their words, crying, stomping their feet. That is their words. They're they're being very effective. Anyway, so uh he's uh not speaking, he's got but he understands sign language, and he's whining or yeah, so he's whining, is that it?

23:10 What did she say? Whining? Okay, so it's interesting he doesn't do that with your mom. She says, use your words. Now, now whining is not bad behavior. So it's a little bit different than the use your words I just talked about. That's around bad behavior, okay, when they're acting out. But around whining, use your words, she's actually just calming them down.

23:28 That's all that is. I don't, I don't like the term use your words because I associate it with that other thing. I would just say, oh, calm, oh, say it like this, and then I would repeat the the way I want to hear it. Okay. So he says, I want that. Say, may I please have or please? He could maybe he can say please or sign it or something, but you mimic how you want him to react.

23:48 Use like a whispering soft voice. Okay. And then if he keeps whining, just say, no, just calmly. No anger, no big discussions around it. Just mimic how you want him to talk. Because if he's whining, he obviously does have some words. So yeah, mimic how you want him to say it.

24:06 I have three kids, one and a half, four, and six-year-old. What is challenging is having fun together. The oldest daughter is a very common person, the middle son is the opposite, and the youngest boy is the loudest child. And because of the age, it's hard to play with the other two without destroying everything.

24:20 So in this situation, do you think it would be good to have one-on-one time with everyone rather than trying to do something together? I must say the four-year-old is very challenging, screams a lot, is annoying to siblings, and drives me crazy. Unfortunately, I'm not a leader yet, still trying though.

24:33 There are certain things. Now, with the one-year-old, it's a little bit harder. So you don't have, and I always say if kids aren't getting along, you don't do one-on-one time. It builds resentment. Okay. Uh, but you play with them together and you're facilitating them being in the same vicinity, actually having fun.

24:48 Doesn't mean they're playing together, but they're playing with you, sort of. So they get used to being side by side and getting along, sort of. The one-year-old can be included in this, but one of uh I've got a client, I think, a while back, and they found this really helpful at very similar ages. And they were playing uh the mini Olympics is something that I did with my kids when they were young.

25:06 And we just set up little obstacle courses in the house and we'd do that. And it was just funny, and it was supposed to be really silly, like hop on one foot while you plug your nose or something. It was supposed to be silly so that you all ended up laughing. You can do that with a four-year-old and a six-year-old.

25:20 So I would start something like the mini Olympics. There's no contest really, it's just silly stuff. Okay, and you have to maybe you have to skip, but you have to skip backwards. Hard to do, by the way. Um, so yeah, just have and you have to skip, it's only like 10 feet, you have to skip backwards. And then, you know, so it's it's meant to sort of build laughter and enjoyment.

25:37 And the little one-year-old can be running around while you're doing that. And play music while you're doing it. It's distracting.

25:44 We have one final question. So, Mimi from the United States. Two-year-old will tantrum and work herself up so badly she starts begging for a hug, basically climbing me as I'm present, but ignoring the tantrum and waiting for the bus. It's almost like she wants me so bad, whatever she's tantruming about no matter, no longer matters.

26:00 When I give an unhug her, she completely settles, and then we're able to move on. I can't tell if this is the right move to connect with her and move on, or is this condoning the tantrum?

26:09 Yeah, she settles because she just won and she pulled you down to the low road. The tantrum is not bad behavior, but it's still the low road, okay? You stay on that high road. If she's trying to climb on you, just peel her off like a banana peel and just sort of look the other way like you don't even notice.

26:23 The reason why she calms down is she just won. So, in other words, you've just taught her that tantrums are good, they're gonna get your own way, and you'll be in charge. Yeah, she's just learned that she's in control and she can win. That's all you're teaching her. It'll backfire. She's only two. Yeah, you're teaching her that she can be in charge of you.

26:39 That you'll you're quite happy to go down the low road with her. And she'll keep doing it. She'll stay on that low road because there's no one on the high road now to pull you both up. Once you join them on the low road, that ladder to the high road is kicked out. You can't get back up there. Not for the rest of that day or whatever.

26:54 So yeah, she's just one. You're both on the low road. And by the way, that's not love she's after. That's control. When they are mad, a tantrum is anger and frustration. When they're mad and um then they ask for a hug, that's not love. That's control.

27:10 Do you want to end on the idea of why you don't like why you think it's so important to have that connection after?

27:16 Okay. The connection after, because you want to teach them that tantrum doesn't get you any attention, but when you stop, then you get attention. You're teaching them uh if you do something, and tantrum isn't bad, but a tantrum isn't something that you want to encourage. So when you're on that low road, I will not be joining you, basically.

27:33 But as soon as you calm down, that's the high road, I'll be right there with you. Okay, or I'm gonna pull you up to the high road with me. So as soon as they're finished with the tantrum, they and they got it, you gotta be fast. As soon as they're finished and they're in the tantrum hangover, I call it, they're still sort of in the same energy.

27:47 They're just tired. So they, you know, they're doing the hiccup cries kind of stuff. So, and then you say, Oh, y'all done? Do you want to go read a book? See my tones very cheery and upbeat. So the high road, I'm on the high road. You can join me, I'm inviting you. And then they know, and then they start up again to say, whoops, and then go back to ignoring.

28:03 But eventually they're they're gonna join you, okay? So they say, Oh, you want to go read a book? I need a hug. And then you pat them on the back and say, You're all right, let's go read a book. You do not console that. That's they're still in that, they're still trying to drag you down to that whole hole road because they're still in that energy, but they're coming out of it.

28:21 And you want to reward the high road. They're joining you on the high road now. That's where you want them. You all want to be on the high road. Doesn't mean you're perfect all the time, but it's it's the it's the positive road, the treating people with respect road, the the you know, being your best.

28:35 That's sort of the high road. We're all gonna go on the low road, you know, eventually, you know, at times. That's okay. But generally, you want to encourage them to come up to the high road. You want to stay there as long, especially when they're acting out. You stay, you stand firm on that high road and you invite them up.

28:48 Don't go down to the low road with them.

28:50 Yeah, I guess now it can be either what would Lisa do or what would Mary Poppins do.

28:54 Mary Poppins, that is bizarre. I'm gonna look that up now. That is bizarre.

28:58 I think that you and I will have to re-watch Mary Poppins with that lens.

29:01 I had no idea. I saw it when I was a very young child, uh, probably when it came out, um, because I'm, you know, 65 years old. So it's probably right when I when I was really little, but I didn't put that together. Interesting. Oh, that's why so many kids have called me Mary Poppins. Wow. I never connected that.

29:18 Isn't that hilarious? Okay. Thanks so much for joining Amy and Mary Poppins. I mean me, and we'll be back again soon talking about another parenting topic. Happy parenting.

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