Askonas Holt – Inside the Business of Artist Management

0:00 What role does the location factor play in the agency world? Because obviously still Germany is the broadest and how to say, deepest musical region that you have. but... Is there not a huge conflict of interest among artists' agencies. Every management and needs a good balance between good earner, high-earner... ...and sort of the new kids on the block.

0:24 You're studying that profession in order to live off it in a for profit world right? The actual product is beyond AI! And this is great Alex, great to have you on the program. Asconas Holt pretty much doesn't need any introduction as you can see here in the back and this is your business. You work with the greatest artists in the world.

0:56 What are the biggest agencies next to Harrison Parrot and AMG and Cardi Schmidt? And today we want to find out what makes Ascona Holt special unique. Maybe let's start with an introduction about yourself because your background is also quite unique. You worked first for Cardi Schmitt and then you work ten years for the opposite side of the market, so to speak.

1:16 So for Kama Academy Potsdam And now your back in the agency world as since two thousand twenty four fast corners hold What brought you into classical music? Well basically first of all thanks for having me. it's a pleasure. and Yeah what brought me into that thought I think is allowed from music. just very simply always enjoyed listening to music playing music But also most importantly attending concerts.

1:39 are we start? music is alive. I grew up in Braunschweig, not a really big town. But there was everything that needed an orchestra and opera house with lots of choirs so it could take advantage itself, but I didn't really most necessarily for a profession wanted to go on the stage. But always liked this sort of supportive right role.

2:09 so i was studying musicology. So I was doing a lot of music history, but also other things. Was also starting in Berlin which is has it as a really good portfolio at the studies and And I did a lot internships one Of the most of their internships alike most wars with festival Maclinburg-Vorpommern which then you jumped that one, was my first sort of main job.

2:33 It was the program director of Festspieler Mecklenburg-Vorpomann a huge summer festival here north of Berlin in Mecklamburg-Vpomann and it was such good start to this ecosystem because big festivals. very personally so I got to know lots. Art has wonderful venues. I was able to do all these programs together with Sebastian Nordmann at the time, and it was an amazing five years where really learned... ...the business end.

3:03 And then exactly as you said i was joining Katie Schmid for touring. so i was part of the touring team. first of all because we have got to know each other very well during this year's Because they are there were my partners in producing orchestra tours, so I had a lot of projects from them. Then eventually they said hey would you like to come over and produce things for us?

3:29 Which we thought at the time with my family was a great idea. again after five years as you've said i jumped into the driving seat with Chamber Orchestra in Potsdam. it's special because its a freelance musician owned chamber orchestra like MCO or Freiburg Abarok. So my job was also to make sure that this structure goes...

3:52 A lot of coordination, right? It's a lot of combination for translation from what happens on my desk to the musicians would want and try to balance it out. And then after nearly eleven years I was asked to run this wonderful office here. The interesting thing is There's a lot of similarities even though the daily work might be different depending on what you're doing, but there are lots of similarities between jobs.

4:16 You always want to do great things with great people artistically rewarding and reach your audience the energy or atmosphere of a room. I found that out while doing it, so there's a lot of similarities and... The idea here is also to bring my experiences from previous jobs into this role. Yeah, which is why I thought it's a very good opportunity and as gonna hold has been very helpful also to make this possible for me.

4:50 So that's the little journey up till now. let's talk about the location factor because they think Asconas has no an office in obviously London then with Opus free Which Is kind of like The mother company so To speak In New York And Berlin For the whole Dach speaking era. So not Madrid Not Like Anywhere Else It Just Berlin.

5:12 What role does the location factor play in the agency world? I think it actually plays a role. What you feel is even though with digitalization and access to information, that territories or markets can work very locally. so if Düsseldorf, you are not necessarily a superstar in Cologne. Right? Because it's different city and grows differently.

5:44 if You're well-known In America your not necessarily well known in Europe Let's say right. or If you're Well-known in the mainland Europe you're Not necessarily well on in UK. And I think quite frankly i think this is an advantage because It gives our ecosystem color and variety. so to Your very good question take this into account when you do your job and if want to service the marketplace well.

6:12 So I think it's an advantage for a local office because of course its language, culture talking with people is very different worldwide. A lot of people are coming here like artists or also clients that they're selling too? Is there in person meeting going on? Totally! This actually another good answer.

6:34 First of all, Berlin is a hotspot for classical music. People are passing through it all the time but then... A lot our artists live in Berlin or at least have flat or second home here in Berlin which also happens regularly. that my team in London and New Yorkers call us saying there's an artist passing though.

6:53 could you take care? Could you attend to show and help on-the ground? we're doing this more. I think its great opportunity to work closely together. And Berlin, I think musically it's the best place to be quite frankly in Germany because already you have that incredible amount of local orchestras but then as you say there are so many people passing through... So i believe Berlin is a very good place to go.

7:19 Totally! Whenever we do podcasts in Germany like I said a couple minutes ago before though when we got to Berlin right? Obviously Let's talk about some numbers, because Ascona's hold covers roughly three hundred ten artists under management currently. And you have a big team of actually like around eighty people working for Askonas which gives us like three point six artists per employee right?

7:44 Are really focusing on the artist-management part or is also the touring business pretty dominant? how would she describe like their relations there? Yeah, actually I mean Eskonos Cold has grown in over. If you take the total story from very beginning to now it's way above a hundred years. so this company is growing for long time and exactly as you said a variety business branches.

8:15 so you have the core if I may say which is obviously artist representation. but then huge part of people who just mentioned are doing tours and projects worldwide. So it's at least i'd say around thirty of these staffs are doing tourism project world wide, we also do lots. other things were producing concerts more and more curating projects more and helping our artists, but also other clients orchestras festivals to make their jobs.

8:43 So it's a very varied profile which I think is big advantage. actually have various feet on and this probably will help us and did already helped us stabilize the our business, because obviously there have been always movements from into this or that direction. One territory is a little bit easier than another one and Eskonas among the others you mentioned it's working worldwide in all territories but also growing this office with me joining other people joining.

9:20 we want to focus more on the sort of mid-continental middle European continental Because still Germany is the broadest and how to say, deepest musical region that you have. So I mean... The numbers are correct but they're a little bit different because some people aren't working directly for artists or tours which may include our artists But not only.

9:49 we also work with other conductors and soloists represented by all fellow colleagues. But probably behind your question is, yes we are big but also want to be as individual as possible per client which could an orchestra or a soloist conduct instrumentalists. So in way size one thing and the individual management.

10:18 it's super important. my team Berlin. We are much smaller and of course we also have less artists, but we try to be sort-of the boutique. The boutique side of what we're doing which doesn't mean that London is not doing it either But we can be...we have a luxury being able to remain smaller. so more detail work really going into the smaller orchestras, the smaller promoters we are able to take that luxury.

10:52 Totally, I mean let's double down on that a little bit because it really aligns also with the revenue and business model right? Usually people think agencies make their money through provision. you have work with artist X. everyone in market is roughly between fifty percent or twenty percent like share of salary for an artist.

11:09 And this is only source income. Are there other sources of income from an agency as Conas Holtz? Absolutely, I mean first of all it's the touring model. How does a touring model work specifically? We've talked about this so often but don't understand that you book an orchestra for just many concerts and then how is it organized?

11:27 yeah there are two business models behind its different. one is very parallel to artist models. or do you agree with provision? So you agree with, let's say the orchestra acts. You agree okay we try to book your two or ten concerts and each concert that we agree on On Your behalf is also subject To a commission around depending on what you serve as Ten fifteen percent at that size.

11:53 so this Is A little bit The similar model. What my team in London We are doing more And More is Also That We Actually Become The two operator also legally. so we are sort of hiring the orchestra. We're sort of contracting the soloist where booking the hotels that travel and then we sort of take the project and sell it into the marketplace, So It's like a buy-and-sell situation.

12:17 Sometimes it just makes more sense out of various reasons. Sometimes the orchestras also want us to do like that. sometimes our soloists Also say let's do it like that. It really depends on the project, but we do it more and more. And this is also a completely different setup. at the end of today The Delta is provisioned But you don't know beforehand.

12:39 tough luck with flights, let's say. You can also lose margin but you're responsible at the end of a day if they decide to take more risk. and then as we just said... We have started. in the past especially our colleagues in London has done quite some promotion and copromotion in the eighties seventies eighties nineties the piano sonata cycles.

13:07 that for example Daniel Baron Boehm did in London back in the years. It was all an assault promotion, so we would hire a venue and sort of sell tickets with help from service providers. We are doing this more because it's just the right way to do some projects. So you always find partners like a whole ticket sales company Whoever we need.

13:32 but at the end of today that would be a shared model. So probably the artist. what also contribute? We will contribute and let's say a whole And we love to do all of this. I think it's very, very Speaking probably about the future. we can do that later But i think its'a Very good model because we are All in The same boat together right?

13:51 It is not. once the contract Is done you know We're off. No, no we remain in until the end right? Everybody remains in Until The End and this is a very good model. And we have done it quite successfully A couple of times also In America together with Carnegie Hall were doing a Couple Of Things. If It Works well its again Very Good Moment To Run Our Business So That Will Happen More.

14:16 I'm Also Working On Stuff For Berlin. Yeah, it takes also the risk from like venue right? So that they sell and so on. Exactly And you kind of have a chance to obviously upset then your economic potential. You share with everybody Which is great. What sometimes goes through my mind when I hear this Is there not huge conflict or interest in market among artist agencies because i see Person X That agency in general representation, but like there's a boutique agency and I don't know Italy who does that?

14:49 And then he is there. There are so much overlap especially now if you go into touring right as some You work with so many different agencies and so on and so forth when everyone has taken their part out. i mean Is they're not conflict of interest sometimes? Definitely yes Though first of all we all know each other.

15:11 It's always good. What we try to do for each project, for every artist is find the best possible setup. that could mean one team doing everything. so let say we have a general management and this artists wants work in the territory where are strong but others might also like working. Italy lets just take it as an example.

15:35 not only great for holidays But it has a certain culture of speaking with each other. It has a Certain way of speaking to each other, and then of course if you speak Italian You're having an advantage. So what most of the artists do? And we also Do is We actually try to bring in a local manager again your question was there With the venue with the place right.

15:59 so Most of the artist's we are working for who either have a profile in Italy or want To have a problem in Italy. they have a local Manager. mm-hmm makes total sense. So anyway, it's not an overlap but what you have normally is a general manager and then you have local management. And how's the money game organized?

16:15 Do they just take it or... It's a commission split, yes But that's fairly straightforward That everybody I mean You can agree A little bit left & right but Normally its a Commission Split. Everybody knows The Game. So for the artist This Is Important Yeah! But Its a split of the existing Commission Towards the Artist.

16:34 For the artists Its not a disadvantage Even an advantage because he has more has more territorial profile. But then of course, speaking of conflicts there might be conflicts from time to time where for example we do have so many conductors and normally they are very flexible about the touring partner.

16:55 but some of our conductors may say if you go on tour I want sort-of my team or our team to do it And that might conflict here and there. this happens. It's a small world. We all know each other. we also help each Other at the end of today because in the end was there? We want to make one to keep the ball rolling and it and the wheel driving and the ship sailing right.

17:17 so Sometimes, we might be lucky sometimes One of the colleagues might be like it. yeah What is your take on this provision model? to be honest with you I think its Like. from a first point of view Its very fair Because You only get paid when you deliver Right Which Is like Super Fair. On the other hand, I can also see the point from many artists that are maybe jumping in on a very high level price point already.

17:41 In your agency and then like you earn way more with them right? Then than without the artist and so on. And they might also think about ah Can i make just my own family office little and organize everything by myself to make more money through That. what is your take on that whole provision model? um Very good point especially.

18:01 I don't want to talk about Corona so much today, but when it got to that point we could see the provision model doesn't work anymore because obviously there were no concerts. So well... But i think there is a limit for that model. first of all and would agree That's a fair model. if you're able to book a date The orchestra pays your fees Everybody earns.

18:24 You know everybody is happy fine But of course we are doing a lot of other things. We're also maintaining the website, sending out information... ...we do press things that normally is not subject to any fees. So there's lots of servicing which doesn't have direct return. As business model you need be careful or at least conscious.

18:45 I would say this is still healthy. and speaking about higher fees & provision.. subsequently law provisions, so we always need to balance that out. We always need a couple of artists who sort-of work well in the sense they either do not have many concerts but these are very well paid or lots of concerts with medium and some young artists for the ecosystem –we need all–but at Pay the salaries of my team and so on.

19:20 So it needs we do need to mix in every. Every management needs that not only yeah, but only us because we are so so big in size. But every management And needs a good balance between go to earner high-earner and sort of the new kids on the block? It's also speaking about that is also our responsibility to tech you know To tackle that because we meet new people coming in and growing through through our ecosystem, right?

19:48 Without young artists coming in. I mean... No one starts from the top and about Ask On A Soul. their size does indeed help a little bit because for us it's a little easier to say hey we are taking on these. We have a fellowship scheme especially for young conductors but i'm more involved with the conducting side.

20:11 so For Us It is less risky couple of young conductors where we actually don't know what will happen because they had the very start. For us it's a little bit easier to do that, but for So positively said, we also take this very seriously. We just took the sixth conducting fellow which is quite a number I suppose already and of course it's only an investment because there are basically no return.

20:51 but they're new interesting person ideally growing into market probably staying with us But probably deciding after three years to go somewhere else And that happens! That's fine. But to be honest with you, looking on it from a purely economic perspective... I know this is not the perspective of market.

21:10 Looking at it from an economic perspective your goal must be getting high earners in your agency and simultaneously scouting the next generation of higher earners early-on and fixing them obviously in very fixed constructs because they don't want leave that. They should stay with us Connors! Is there this shark behavior in the market?

21:36 Is it visible, is it done sometimes. I suppose yes and i'm proud to say we don't because the world is small everybody knows each other And if you sort of misbehave If I may say then Of course There's always an echo To that. so We Don't do This! We also don't really actively run after It happens anyway That were going to meet specific conductor soloist and if there's a chemistry, this person might feel unhappy about the current situation.

22:10 they will eventually call you anyway. We don't do it of course but I also think that this sort of shark dinosaur mentality is getting little bit less. probably i'm naive But I think it's more about working together and trying to face the bigger challenges that are coming. Especially now, right? Right now very true especially post-COVID, post-corona.

22:38 last time i mentioned today promised people are more working together And Trying to understand what each of us can contribute To the ecosystem so that the ecosystem in total works. but yes sure That happens again. there is some some conflicts here and there. But we don't do it, which I also liked. the idea about joining Eskonoshold because this is a very strong corporate cultural thing... ...because our artists take Sir Simon Rattle now for fifty-two years with Eskonushold.

23:17 Somebody like Sir Simon would never stay fifty two years if they were A problem with working culture, right? So just to give you this example there are many other. It's a long-standing thing we're doing. You can't normally... a career doesn't explode but it takes a long time if you do healthy work on a trustful relationship with promoters that take so while as we know and I do like that!

23:45 We have more of marathon rather than sprint. And the long-term, trustful relationship both with artists or internally but also with promoters is our strongest currency at the end of day. This more important than a little conflicty and that's interesting. you said it. I mean how do these contracts with artist look like?

24:07 So your not. basically are they on two years? then their talks whether to get renewed or not? Or does this cancel any time? How strict It's different. Yeah Let's say I know some Managements who don't even have contracts Because they say, I Don't need a contract because if everything goes well it just goes Well.

24:33 and if he doesn't go? Well anyway will come it will end. For formality reasons. we do have contracts. They normally don't have a running time. So there are just their until one of the two parties says I need to talk to you. And then there's some sort of notion and technical things, right? But quite honestly it doesn't really... It is not that important but more important than having this trust for a relationship.

24:56 if you don't have that anymore. That's crazy! It ends anyway.. It's very different in the other market If your look at pop industry as super-different. No because again its people business Of course they are notion periods and all of those. This can't go on. Let's speak positively. if you like to go with somebody and it all works well, then It can last forever.

25:21 yeah Yeah there is very modern. I mean There's a lot to say about the classical music market. But one thing that is definitely true Is these are just nice people Like all stakeholders whether its artists or also the functionaries. They're really not super economic, not super ego. Not so you know. they are all like.

25:42 there's a nice sense of we're all in this together and will find the way to do our business together. it is very nice being that market. I would agree on what say. its both and also having a clear if your have a clear plan let us say economically and business wise gives you freedom To just do exactly what you're just said.

26:02 So in a way, it's both. yeah It one helps the other. I would say if he has business side right? In order to have that good. Yeah Good thing. I mean when I did my studies My one of my really great professors and mentors set What we are doing is we are providing the best possible framework so that great art can flourish.

26:21 That's what it is. The better I run my team the better around this this office the better my team Of course as service for the artist can work. So in a way it's not even two sides of the same metal, right? And that helps each other. Totally! Let us go into business side again because obviously I see different trends on the market and I see the trend from the concert hall or the organizer.

26:47 they have to sell their tickets where there's less willingness to pay in terms of inflation and so on. And people don't want to allocate maybe their money just for entertainment, so-to speak. So there is a downward pressure on ticket price. Maybe right but on the other hand There is an upward pressure On your cost of labor?

27:10 The fee of artists also might rather go up than down. This is contradictory. somehow Do you feel that pressure? in talks with concert organizers? we do feel that. We do feel there is at least the feeling things might get more difficult, right? Again it's very different from promoter to promoter and partner-to-partner.

27:35 There are clever people who take a challenge as a challenge And come up with good solutions. But I also see, and understand it. And acknowledge that people were just very careful on what they are doing right? They're programming probably a little bit less adventurous... ...a little bit of concerts. so there's some multitude ways to deal with the crisis.

27:58 What we also see is certain development for example fees Evening Fees concert fees There at least in a certain group of artists has a limit which I think we all have to acknowledge. also, not everything speaking about sustainability can grow. So there are certain limits and it's very important that you acknowledge these sort of glass ceilings if they're one right?

28:30 And then to deal with them and talk actively the promoters on why can't What is here? The more we understand, the better. We can explain it to the artist. the other way around if you feel towards what's there as a fee level that really break then also I think its our responsibility talk about artists and try find out whether its okay or how they work on their revenue streams.

29:00 so but i agree this amplitude of The dealing with the challenging situations we're having is very different from people who are even more successful. Like, I don't know, Concert Hall's Dortmund for example whom you work closely... It was their first podcast! What they have achieved? They have one record season after another right there selling more tickets quicker because what do?

29:26 they invest a lot into fantastic program but also invested in audience research so that actually Tiffly talk and interact with their audience. right seems simple, but not every promoter is really doing it But he's doing it because it's a great team. And he's the great leader. Um, and there are other examples I could give you.

29:45 and there is other people who were sort of Out of whatever reasons and again these reasons might be also very Very understandable that they struggle right? They're like now let's do less Let's do last marketing Of course That's not probably not the best idea to do um and our job is aid to try to help the struggling partners because every partner that gets weaker is.

30:10 It's not good for us either and it's not. Good for the ecosystem But then also advise the artist in a constructive way what do or what better? Not too at a certain point in the career, right And this is also job that we need to do Because we tried to follow on all these trends that you were quoted correctly.

30:30 so it's also our responsibility both towards the promoter in for helping supporting. Also probably saying to an artist look normally you should get this and that fee or but we have two. really find a solution here, then I'm more like doing the job of the promotor and try to convey it and say okay Look This time he needs To be like this because We need to help That promoter Here.

30:54 could you please what do You think all The other way around? Advice the artists not Not to Do something Or do It differently? yeah It's also part of our job. Okay, okay but to be honest I see your position a little bit more tied up than the concert organizer or hall because obviously what do you have?

31:10 You've got the program and artist hands down. that is it right? so basically artists sell better are selling not-so good programs might sell better and not-too-good. this can bring into table then obviously depending on the success of The Hall, right? How could they do their marketing and like pricing models.

31:36 So turn it around. sometimes we are hearing from our beloved friends. They say hey your artist is not selling then I'll say but what you will so that my artists can sell. We're in this together also. It's an ecosystem because the artists very open normally to put themselves also into the chair of the concert organiser and say what do you need so that it can be a success in terms of communication, narration or whatever we need.

32:08 So I see mainly everybody from our artists on different scales but they are all very open to make their success because an artist wants a success, right? And everything what he or she could do to help. He or She will do and that's also part of our job. Of course in current contracts we have some sort of social media paragraphs.

32:33 so if We sign a contract then sometimes it says the artists are obliged To do a couple of Social Media things. So I mean this is coming more and more going back to That shared risk model More. i feel that the roles, the artist is sort of just. The artistic management isn't just their management and the promoter.

32:54 it's getting more hybrid you know? It's a good term yeah! And we are in this together... This at least my understanding because I've done all these seats, all these perspectives ...and the better i can do this. then there another thing which I think is important not every artist works for every orchestra but to work for every hall.

33:13 so also my job sort of pre-detect what makes sense and doesn't. So out of, let's say a hundred options it is my job to already put ninety away not because they are bad but don't fit if you know I mean so. It also my job make sure that we dont actually do something give births or something thats cant run .So its all together with the artist and promoters everybody in ecosystem match what makes sense.

33:45 and of course you have to take risks from time-to-time trying new things, but I always say let's take the cleverest Let's not do things that are not. You know if your with my former orchestra Kamar Akadibi Potsam there is such a strong emphasis on this sort of historically informed musicianship, like very edgy and very buff.

34:06 So if you have a conductor let's say who likes to work with big orchestras... It might anyway work but the risk is high that it doesn't. so lets match it! Let us just make sure what is right project for each artist? The better we do that ...we can make sure that works. That is a success at the end of today, and I agree.

34:32 We're dependent but we can still sort of maneuver this This match because sometimes an artist would want to do something and a promoter Would want to invite somebody? And both things doesn't really make sense. then it's also my job and we are doing this To say well i'm not so sure and not be Because we know everything better But will just no.

34:52 from doing this you know twenty four seven. We should rather keep our resources for other things that might work better. So it's also a little bit massaging and maneuvering of this matchmaking process, right? What I found very interesting is actually like Ascona Solt was bought by the San Francisco Conservatory Music in two thousand twenty-two which Is basically like higher education school right as you can study music there.

35:19 And this really reminds me of that classic like American business school model where basically also the office, I went to. we had partners and they were coming. people come from investment banking or consulting right after the first semester. Like presenting their firms so on. you could feel a step which is entering into profession going onto job market.

35:41 unfortunately don't see it very often in classical music space because i dont know pretty much any agency or anything that partners up with Hochschulen in Germany, we say it before. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit on. the world will see more of trend near future like business parts market from classical world want to cooperate with education system?

36:05 I hope so because i think your right is. sometimes there is at least, I would say to take it as positively as i can. There's a gap between the higher education which good normally if you speak about these sorts of anti-ISLA, Odecai and Berlin. It's amazing! You know? And others...and then you have like the market there is a huge gap in which we have to say it might be smaller or bigger depending on but that is a gap.

36:36 so I think your question comes. i think its very good because it describes this gap also through various jobs. It's an honor and a luxury. I've been asked by young musicians to help at least navigating through that gap, so of course there are lots of things like orchestra academy training on the job thing, assistantships but they could be much more... And i think it should be much More.

37:04 So the idea for the conservatory partner as you say is correct with two or three how-you-counted offices which do management and touring And then we also have Pentaton under our roof, so maybe one fantastic label. Great colleagues! So I think for them... For these students. it's such an amazing network they can use and they do it.

37:26 from time to time though They come over for an intern or help with the orchestras whatever It is in a lot of our musicians that are like professorships or assistantships there In San Francisco. We're trying to sort-of bring this together halls and production possibilities in San Francisco, sometimes our musicians would go produce a new show.

37:53 And then the students could be there... They can use the infrastructure! But also the student just has to be here for week and talk with the musicians. that's an amazing opportunity. just get to know each other and understand how business works. I have to admit we're still at beginning of this process but it is already happening could happen more and it will happen.

38:16 But I also agree with you, that can be done much more. of course we have to protect the students from growing and not being looked at all the time but also training people for jobs same as our job. we could do more and I think, be a little bit less shy to bring these worlds closer together. And i also see this as responsibility.

38:48 actually because there might be fantastic young violinist whatever it is that's just not prepared for enter the business but then its thrown into the business... ...and It just doesn't work! Because This person isn´t well equipped with The techniques you need For the Business Not playing But everything else.

39:08 And this is not responsible, I would say. So the better we do this in everybody it's a task for all of us you know? The better we can grow our infrastructure and artistic infrastructure of the future. That is so true! There are usually conflicts of interest from state-funded schools cooperating with far profit businesses which i get to point but on the other hand you're studying that profession in order to then live off of it.

39:39 In a for-profit world, right? So basically... You also have to align better there and I don't know any... I mean correct me if i'm wrong but I don' t know of any... It's just an assumption. Any German music school who has active collaborations with either labels or artist management infrastructure Or anything else I'm sure there is some sort of cooperation going probably in that very invisible.

40:05 Also San Francisco's a private school? Absolutely, it's the private schools as most of them are and they do have other partners. but getting the best students over to San Francisco rather than losing them or whatever it is Curtis. so its also like competition. They are really doing well and of course it's a very, very interesting area.

40:30 And that is wonderful school in the super team. so I feel very privileged actually to be part of this family. but in daily life we can sort-of... The good thing when you take it as needed. if there was like project that needs recording or rehearsal space We could always reach out Mechanism where they say hey, we have this twenty five young violinists.

40:54 Could you please sign them? Yeah That doesn't happen but because it does make a lot of sense. But if it happens It's fantastic and the President is such an amazing colleague as super team. So I'm really really proud to be to be part of that off their team. But it could. it could be more. more of those models i suppose.

41:14 do other agencies have that? i mean We wanted to talk about what. what makes Axconas so different in terms of all the other players on the market agencies, right? I've not seen other agencies that have that model. No i think it's pretty unique and we're proud of it! We call it The Alliance Internally which is a very good word to describe... you know, management's cooperating with competitions obviously.

41:45 I'm seeing this that also managements work together like Rob and Böhm and Schmid are cooperating in terms of touring even merged this part here absolutely right? So what we said before is the idea of putting forces together. This happening but... it enriches our life because we all have different views, like my colleagues in London has different views on the marketplace as my colleagues here.

42:18 As do I have the Pantatone people and the San Francisco. so already internal you have so many different perspectives. if we integrate them or ready then were already much more right? We understand more of... And its not true. wrong is just trying to understand perspective And that's so helpful in daily life, actually.

42:40 Because the world is complex right? It's small at the end of the day. it's a small field in comparison to other sectors but... ...it's very dynamic and it changes these days. So its good to have this multi-perspective approach. I do like that. I've got feeling we always all serve countries the same market right?

43:06 Are there maybe new emerging markets, new countries that you see on a come up for the classical space. Yeah yeah I think yes i mean of course some Asian markets. they are little bit more fragile from time to time because then For example, I personally this is me talking here. I think Poland really it's the country that has actually not super new right but with all playing, also gaining international players for their orchestras.

43:49 I think it's amazing what happens there in terms of culture... It has always been a very cultural country but i suppose this is really one. and now with the political twist as well ...it's such an amazing country! And we are so close here ,so i would like to do more that ! So this probably good very close example from the distance that I believe there's still plenty of things we can do with our Polish partners.

44:20 or just to take one example. I'm always thinking about Middle East because in middle east buildings are built and so on, obviously it might not align with a value perspective for classical music world which is rather western but still huge market potential, huge country. Asia, you mentioned it. infrastructure is built very fast there and still growing.

44:45 Also huge population because I always have the feeling also we have to think about that. right what? Is kind of next step? because still be we fight all not fight but We're all in the same market. And then you know We get rather less than more if you look at the buff rates into on. so You know this is obviously yeah It's obviously a trend The good thing about how Asconos Hold has grown in the last year is that everybody's really very, very internationally driven.

45:11 Of course we have our country of origin and probably some areas where things are better than others. but if you look at it we can actually... We've always serviced more or less whole market. so there a lot of sheer knowledge about let us say Asia, Middle East And potentially this will then help to also react on certain openings or closings, opportunities and more difficult situations.

45:43 Because you asked for the differences I think it's a very important point especially when it comes to touring. The team is really servicing all territories worldwide and more or less all of them direct. So we normally speak directly with the halls, and the promoters... And this gives us a very I would say strong knowledge about the marketplace.

46:07 I really see it as an advantage. yes from time to time that use local partners but there's lot of knowledge on these cultural entities. so if you look at other big agencies which says Ascona Hold has best international network the best is a high word, but for sure very long-standing trained one. Probably also because now we do have Berlin as team and two years ago there was no team on the ground in continental Europe.

46:42 so probably continental Europe has especially touring I suppose not really been in the center of activities, because it's like this but they have always worked worldwide. So there is quite a flexible cultural knowledge setup that might be easier for us to react on international trends rather than others.

47:12 Some offices here they know have like a person in America or a person New York, right? A person in China wherever. But this is more growing into the other way but yeah. I see it as an advantage really. and Yeah, i think that there's little bit of difference. if you could have maybe unfair question ,but If You Could Pick One let's say strength, right?

47:36 Of your competitors. Let's call them competitors that say Harrison Parrot or a boutique agency or IMG or Kaddishmi whatever. what would you take? What is maybe the thing one of them does really well Well there are lots things. they're doing very good and as we know all of us know each other very well.

47:55 I'm sure it will be the same but... There is every team in this wonderful colleagues, there's people that have grown artistic careers over decades. So from really young kids discovering them and growing them through their careers... And I've a lot of respect for that! We already spoke about it but if i see some People from KDS who have grown careers like Anders Nelsson's over, like thirty years and I've a lot of respect for that.

48:46 And i do believe this is the strength Of all us! Look...I'm happy about it right? Anyway we are big but can't do everything either. so Im very happy if things go well Right?! There're people with lots of care and alot of respect and alot flexibility heart, right? To grow somebody like a famous conductor or somebody like Blomestead who has grown with his team for four centuries more.

49:21 I have a lot of respect for that and there's many more examples as well. Tony... How does Ascona develop its business model further? because obviously we've talked about some other models but you very like labor cost intense business model, right? So not very high margin I suppose. And obviously also you have the trend of artists building personal brands getting maybe more independent in that sense just a trend if they all do it or not.

49:54 let's leave Trends that you have to prepare for. Maybe what other things are you looking into? That you also still can serve to the market. maybe Also anything towards the audience partner like always within The business. yeah, it's a very good question. something we talked a little bit about promotion called promotion.

50:13 We're doing this more and more. We want to do this. more or more will also partner I suppose that well happen with colleagues that are working on Public reach, let's say if it's like if its label for example or a marketing or media company. we're talking about all of that. I mean i suppose depending on how things grow and this is exactly the point doesn't make sense at one point to try to reach the audience from management point of view?

50:49 trick here. and your key question, which is a very good one. Does it make sense to leave sort of the B-to-B level or at least help transitioning into A-C levels? So would that really makes sense if we have a database where our artists perform? I think this is such strategic questions... it's bloody worthwhile to look into that because at the end of today, the artist that attracts the public is... That's a good thing.

51:24 So if Hayato Sumino sells out eighteen thousand tickets in one hour? It's not a bad thing right. so what if we knew how these eighteen-thousand people would be? and why do they like their book? Why Do They Go? And first off all I'm curious. but then secondly your question If you turn that around, a step towards what could be to advise the artists.

51:48 Our artist is just build their friend circle and fan base like pop-artists obviously do And I think there's lot we can learn. also. Is it something that we should offer as service? How would they look in conjunction with the artist? It's a little vague But its very good direction to think and we do think about that already because obviously if I have an artist, why can help my artists grow his or her following?

52:20 It's not a bad thing. Right i'm always thinking of how to use your brand more... If you think about it, everyone who is in the classical music world knows that and has huge respect for it. But people who attend concerts have probably never heard of Askonos Hold or any other label or agency right? So how can we use this brand promise as well to bring it on a broader market?

52:50 just thinking out loud but maybe also something which I don't see yet because at the moment business model as you said correctly doesn't work like that. We normally don't interact directly with a ticket buyer, I mean we were you might have heard but just last year we co-produced Sumo in London the Grand Sumo Tournament which we did thirty years ago and again this year Which normally these tournaments they are not allowed to happen outside Japan.

53:21 But we had special grant from the Sumo Association to do an international venue of a competition. So actually, Esken Assault was sort-of co-producing this and we were also branded. so it's one these moments where you would put the brand towards the public right? We didn't really... I don't think that they did make analysis if that was perceived or how it is perceived but there are banners and logos Interesting.

53:52 Yeah, well whatever let's just leave that open. but I'm you know obviously the podcast is all around That topic right and we want to also see The differences because if You look at it everyone things every agency Is roughly the same? The people who are working there make a difference And of course i guess thats true.

54:07 Right very like human relationship based networking thing i suppose yeah. But Also the business model is always interesting in it Obviously will develop Absolutely. It's the people at end of day, it is my team our teams and artists. if that fits its strongest currency you could have, but not everything fits.

54:31 So we can't make something work that just doesn't fit. You would also want to marry somebody who you don't necessarily fancy. so in a way it's very... And then of course everything needs to be professional and well-serviced. I'm totally with you. But at the end of day people work together. If they like each other if they rate each other or trust each other Then ...you're there.

54:56 That's what it is. And in a way, its'a good thing. you know with all the AI don't want to open another big topic but I do believe that there is chance we are having here because... What were doing is beyond A.I.. I was gonna ask exactly this question! Sorry! Because AI can help navigate our processes.

55:14 Don't get me right? We'll already do it But The actual product Is BEYOND AI And this is great. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you because my take on the whole like next ten-twenty-thirty years very bullish for real human interaction and entertainment as well Because obviously it isn't something which is not something that you can replace with AI, right?

55:38 And I guess people will really allocate their money towards exchange with other humans. Towards more personal experiences to attend concerts too have in-person events because of the digital. everyone has a little tired off this whole digital and everything goes faster and so on. If AI eventually leads us to have more time to allocate... You know i'm very bullish for your art.

55:59 So that's actually great thing. We'll see what happens with all of that. I think we're just about to understand. also the dangers are, but it will eventually help us and this is a good thing because last years have been quite challenging at least from a felt perspective. they've had some improvements which sometimes tend to forget as humans.

56:23 But in next ten or twenty years i think these can really help us Because every trend There's always a sort of counter trend, so I believe the interest will grow even. And especially something we haven't really discussed today. but finding wonderful artists and characters' personalities is also super important.

56:51 to find somebody who people can they don't only enjoy like wonderfully played Mozart violin concerto To sense an aura of a really interesting person, right? This is also something we can do. We try to source these people and help them grow because they might not be. you know if look at the competition normally Not necessarily the most interesting artist wins but always great people.

57:21 But sometimes there are the compromise sort of totally. it's another topic here which probably would want to open my mind. I always, if i follow of course. But who goes out first? I'm always looking at those because these are sometimes the interesting people. they have this edges. you know where there's many it is hard to say a couple names but more edgy and more interesting.

57:52 This is more interesting for me To help them grow not like you know easy, well-shaped and photoshopped image but it's more edgy. This is also a responsibility because these people do have different aura that they might like or dislike. fine I think this is very important role we can have as an ecosystem to help grow interesting people.

58:23 And that pretty much changed over the last, let's say ten to twenty years all through the internet. basically because for Internet you have more access into looking. Into the person. what does he know? who is the person? The character and so on. before it was maybe just a playing Because this was. It was kind of like this catalysator, right?

58:39 The competition and so on. And you only had a place in the market if you went through that! Today it's obviously... You're an artist or entertainer, you immerse yourself out there on all channels. Obviously no one wants to say but how important is your look If you are entertaining or not? Just human Right?

58:57 It needs to be authentic People, you know. Stephen Walter a good friend of mine always says young people do. Always have the bullshit detector. So if somebody is playing a role that there's just unreal. they're people will just click away. You know. so be yourself and also be edgy in doing you know crazy stuff and all of that.

59:18 And, of course be professional about it but also don't be too egoistic. so there's a level to do right by yourself because I think this is something very important for an audience i suppose. The quality gets worse. obviously hands down... It's maybe not there on that high sophisticated level anymore with profound education.

59:44 Purely playing the instrument at a very highest level, because they're other things now are playing their role as well right? Yeah but this is not what I am with you! This happens... But my point was trying to make our role rather than producing it consciously The same violinist over and over again playing the same repertoire or an over-again, but to really look at the individual as you say the individual Person.

1:00:17 And then social media in the sense of the world can help us do that actually. so You know not with us But somebody like Patricio Kompatinski are for example these people. Anna Prohaska was with us. They're very unique because they just stick what? This is amazing. it's such a it has such a power and we need more of that, less off the same.

1:00:40 Totally! I mean let's finish up there. congratulations on all what you've built... And i can really feel the authentic excitement in the market. It was very nice conversation. thank-you for taking time Thank You.