Samuel Hasselhorn – Artist Fees, Record Deals & the Career of an Internationally Acclaimed Baritone

0:00 If we're honest, if you are a young singer You're not so attractive yet for an agency. If he wouldn't have won that competitions probably would not be present on the lead market. How do I get into this market of lead? Singing...I think it has to come through competitions. The general like fee overview in the singing market is anywhere from Two thousand, two five thousand to six seven thousand euro per concert.

0:24 is that kind of like in range? Even now today when I look at my numbers of my fees they are very different sometimes. And because there's still i guess In the market that word agency That gives young artists trust no matter if They do something or not...I never had To pay for any recording until Now.

0:52 Samuel great having you on The program. We've known each other for quite a while. Yes, I'm very excited to talk through a couple of things about your career and life today. You are obviously well positioned in the singing market especially on lead market right? But i am curious how did you start your career?

1:12 Did also went into these typical boys' choir schools And started singing there. what was their entry point? Kind off! It wasn't boy's choir but it is childrens choir. I grew up with three older brothers, and we all grew in this little town close to Göttingen. And Children's Choir, Church Choir... There was the Youth Choir of Niedersachsen, Lower Saxony.

1:36 So singing was kind part my DNA when i was maybe a little earlier seven or eight years old. You play an instrument for school orchestra. so there is music upbringing although Parents are no musicians. Right? Yeah, and so I went on but my singing started in choir. So i think there's the love for music Started with using my voice Singing with friends...I think also There is a huge social aspect of singing And I loved making Music With My Own Body..and I'm happy that I continued doing That And I'm still doing it.

2:18 Obviously, when was the first moment where you also then in your younger years like ten to eighteen realized okay this is something that i can maybe make towards a profession? Wow, that's amazing. I would love to do this my whole life but there is still a huge gap between being a chorus singer and then solo singer.

2:51 And also you know i didn't really know anything about the job in business for my whole life, whatever that means. So I had to look up what can you even study? Can you be a solo singer? Can your be concert singer or an opera singer? Or a chorus singer and teacher who also sings? so i tried to do all these entrance exams For my studies And before then i started training My real voice when i was maybe fifteen so two-and-a half years Before i did my entrance exam.

3:28 And then I always say, you know when people said like When did you realize that? You have a good voice and i'm Always saying well. I still kind of realized this now That it can make living through that. i mean thats maybe A little. you Know there's a Little joke with This but Maybe a little bit But Still It was called singing.

3:49 it wasn't Called opera Singing. i started to study singing Didn't have this plan of oh, I want to be an opera singer. Just wanted to sing because I loved or I still love singing But it was not like. Oh, I have to be on stage. I want To Be On Stage i wanna be seen. that Was never part Of my thinking and I just Wanted to make music And That's why I started lots Singing Lots of Bach and Church Music Leads Then Very Early and then Opera Came Later Somehow Which is kind of Different route that I took right actually the more difficult route if you want to If you look on the market, right?

4:28 So the opera path is I would say more standard. You go into an opera studio and then from there. You know step-by-step But obviously if you kind of like are outstanding in the market. I mean a lot of lead competitions. back in today There was still does lead right from The Heidelberger Fühling Cosmos which was quite like a benchmark for the lead, I would say.

4:49 And then obviously Queen Elizabeth competition you won that. so it's probably also big thing in terms of momentum. but basically we're able to build your career by... You know, not acting but pure singing right? So lead concert usually like formats that maybe also sell a little bit harder. Yeah true um... But obviously you were well positioned in that and now we're skipping a couple of points.

5:13 so you entered university. So you said your family wasn't like in the music aspect? Like what was their reaction to see? okay, Samuel is now doing this full time kind of. Deep down I don't know but my parents always supported me. so they were never giving a hard time. and why do want to do it? But I think they might have been scared a little bit because they don't really know this life.

5:40 And until now, they don' t really know the lifestyle... Because how would you? They can see it from outside and sometimes i feel like..I barely know that lifestyle! You're just doing it! What are your brothers to? Well my oldest brother is a professor for music pedagogy so he's in music but not active music making.

6:03 And then I have another brother in history and theology, and another one who studied sports management and sport. psychology is now shipping company anyway. so but they all do very theory based jobs there teaching my mother's teacher. she just retired So she was a teacher maybe. And they are, you know.

6:27 They're researching their teaching and I always compared with sports we think that everything about how to be the best coach from German national team but doing it is a different game. so i tell people everybody knows how to sing this. aria has to be sung this superdita's have been sung But doing it as a different kind of game.

6:52 So... You know, my family is a very theory based in theory-based jobs and I'm a very active doer basically. I am doing the job which is... The biggest difference between them. Interesting! Did you do your competitions during or after your studies? During okay yeah let me think Yeah all during basically i mean even before you knew that you must have seen it.

7:18 yeah..I did that. but then everything during the competition And I was always I think kind of like good. I did some competitions where I reached the final rounds, but it never made a price. and then I started was one year in Paris with Erasmus And after that I started winning competitions It's sorry with the Schubert competition at Dortmund And then I won a prize at the Wickmore competition, the second price.

7:49 Wolf Competition third-price does lead. Queen Elizabeth is not elite competition but you can sing leader there as well. So it started that kind of like one competition Fair enough and obviously this gave also the entry point towards making a lot of leads. Like in retrospect, say if you wouldn't have won that competitions probably would not be there present on the lead market.

8:17 I think so unless your very lucky. because when you think about how do i get into this market of lead singing? It has to come through competitions and maybe sometimes these people who appear And then they may some kind mentor somebody like Helmut Deutsch who kind of brings you in the network. Yeah, he brings it and then people notice but otherwise they just noticed this niche genre with competitions I think.

8:52 And now your also doing a lot of opera on the side. obviously back in day You won these competitions. Did you already then work with an agency or when did that came? When did it like professional, rather professional setup came? I mean i did have an agency...I don't even remember when I started With um..i worked with two agencies one was for concert and and leader, and recitals.

9:15 And the other one was for opera. but I think...I started when i won the first competitions because then I thought I'm worthy of like not applying But reaching out to an agent Because before that what should they do? For me um.. I mean ,i can't do it myself! It's my own little agent who you know. When I want the smallest scholarship in Hanover where I studied I wrote emails to people, usually to church musicians.

9:44 And i googled around the area first of Hanover what's happening in North Germany and also spread out... I was on Google Maps Googling where is a Church in Hamburg? In Braunschweig or whatever in Frankfurt! Then I googled and checked their website out and thought they're doing concerts with soloists. Let's write this person.

10:05 So, and sometimes you know I'm very bad with technical stuff but I uploaded everything. uh i sent as email or maybe with way too big of files that didn't go through who knows? And then wrote You Know I am a student here there just won this little scholarship because I want something. so they were some news to share be able to share something.

10:27 And then I just reached out to people, so it was my own agency. and i thought you know if i write a hundred emails maybe two will reply with the job? Yeah right that's lovely great! And than maybe next...you know..and then more would come. So at some point ummm....I don't even...then started with us gonna hold with the agency in London.

10:46 It may have been maybe twenty seventeen eighteen. so between pretty quickly after the sleep that I entered this major agency before, but it was kind of. you know let's work a little bit together. But with us consult was like The real deal? Yeah And of course It's great. if you reach out to them and say i just won This competition then your videos off the competition they can listen to You.

11:13 They're very well done. these videos all These things Of course help for a singer To promote themselves If you have A good video or something something to share. And then how did that deal look like? Did they come with a package of concerts and say, okay this is the project coming up. we want position you there.

11:32 or was it rather you as than young singer who has to find projects together with them under their name? How does it set-up? I had some concert going on. i didn't really sing any opera by then. I did two productions in Lyon where i did the studio and then another production but mainly, Talking and you start about okay.

12:15 What kind of contacts do I bring? Where did I sing already? what? what do have coming up? this is This is my schedule until for the next one or two seasons Or whatever, I have a concert here. Maybe you can follow-up with them. And then off course they have some ideas about oh You know Of course there in London.

12:32 so maybe they have Some context to The Royal Opera House Covent Garden may be or To some smaller opera houses or something but i think it's always working together. I think people cannot expect that an agent just fills up their schedule with random engagements, but you know it works hand in hand! You have people who i get to know and some of them are good for the agency to expand their contacts... Contacts and they have because they talked to the big opera houses, and I can talk to some Local presenters.

13:16 Let's say but i think this is The way it starts And then you just build It up? Maybe maybe by chance or By luck You get something Really cool Or maybe it Just takes a little while. i think everybody Needs To give the agent the time Because also i Think the agents should Give the artist the Time right and i think you Should treat the person you're working with exactly how they treat you.

13:40 So I think it's a really hand-in-hand collaboration to get a feeling like, How old were you when your entered? And also then how many concerts per year? where are already doing roughly? Yeah... I would say so i started with them maybe in two thousand seventeen and so was twenty seven by that. Before that, I had this other agency and you know us gonna solve gave me some really cool deals.

14:15 You know? I mean COVID hit at some point but should have gone to Australia into Canada everything which is of course great But also kind of far away. Yeah And um...and i can't remember how many concerts are saying..but twenty to thirty or something, but also a big variety of concerts. Sometimes it's like small concerts whatever that means and sometimes with bigger presenters.

14:46 But you cannot really think this way That one concert is not more important than the other One. You always try to sing your best. I did yeah Something Like that. And then we got A deal at The Wiener Staatsoper With the agency. Of course thats pretty life changing in terms. You're in a fast ensemble, and then you have maybe twenty performances with them or more who knows.

15:11 And then we have to cancel some things where he cannot say yes because you always...you haven't asked the opera if get free all these kind of thing started turning around. so for me it's yeah I can not give you an exact number. Yeah, I mean what i like about the classical music world in general is that You can already earn money during your studies and think of it if you study medicine or law whatever.

15:34 It's pretty yeah? You can do a working student here And there but you could also make like decent money Yeah Like next to probably get out on our five hundred two one thousand five hundred euro per concert when you're studying right. so If you doing it well and then you Can't do That A couple Of Times with anything you Could Even Also You Can Also Start Teaching.

15:50 Is That That's something that you like. You can find a deal with, in Hanover there was the Knabenkoa Hannover, The Maetchenkoahannover. some people gave lessons to those people but Again, like I just wrote emails to the church musicians. And then I remember somebody in Braunschweig which isn't so far away from Hanover and I think my first Paulus there...I sing also some unknown stuff but you get exposure.

16:18 You sing with orchestra Which doesn't really happen that often when you start studying? Yeah And you make some living and can definitely live as a student Deal then change when you enter, let's say the professional world. So from like this self-made entrepreneurial way towards this agency setup and so on?

16:38 Did you see a huge rise in numbers or was it pretty much the same? It kind of blend everything into each other. because still now even today I look at my number of fees. they are very different sometimes and because of certain reasons. And so I would say at some point, my fee got a little higher... ...because i won competitions.

17:09 that basically is good for your value of you know performance enough art but still I'm my own boss, so nobody forced me to say no to a concert because the fee wasn't high enough or something. I mean i could say that if it's what im thinking but otherwise Im the one who decides So you can even get a million dollars when your sitting there know what i want to sing for ten euros here.

17:35 That is my decision. But yeah thats started and i think its just started too. People or get to work with people and they get to know me that I just didn't really have the access too. because Because you know for example opera houses, I mean Yeah, that doesn't really happen. That you as a student write to an opera house very hard to approach them here and get in addition unless maybe through your schools, your conservatory?

18:03 They can happen that they organize an audition because for example on Hanover when you study there the may be at the Hanover Opera does an audition or something. Maybe not but you cannot call Munich Opera And they just hear you. I mean that goes through an agency. That's kind of like how the business works.

18:22 Is it like profound to say that probably, the general fee overview in The Singing Market is anywhere from two thousand to five thousand six seven thousand euro per concert? It really depends. Are you talking about recital concerts and church concerts? I think also starts lower But it really depends on who is.

18:52 For example, I told you about this church in Braunschweig where i started lower than that but was also still a student. then the thing is, if you have a degree in the variant nobody really cares about. oh this person has a degree now so they get their next level of fee. that doesn't really exist. It feels pretty much to be same right?

19:15 Same hall yeah I mean and some people don't have a Degree and never studied singing. but there are maybe world-class singers nowadays who earn lots of money. So If somebody says well i can just pay five hundred euros That's the total amount And You say I won't do it Then They Find Somebody Else. But if they really want you, because you bring something specific or they like working with you and your always prepared.

19:41 And you're always on time in all these kind of things that you can do without even opening your mouth and singing maybe then you get some more money. but I would say it starts lower than that. Then for... They are struggling right now. Also the arts, of course. And people always told me back in the eighties and then the seventies they had way more money.

20:05 I don't really know because i didn't live there. but it can also go very far up. But that's maybe comes later. There are certain festivals who have private donors and sponsors. If you sing some passions I don't know, it can start when you're a student maybe with something like a couple hundred euros.

20:28 It depends also where are here? I hear always in East Germany around the Leipzig area there's smaller concerts. they really have any money so that doesn't pay much at all. but then should go up for certain other presenters. But to just get like two, three four five is kind of in that professional setup.

20:49 Yeah I think what it's usually paid right? When i started still being a student my late years maybe i start with eight hundred euros but certain things. and then when the first passion arrived was fifteen hundred or something Something Like That if they said we can pay one thousand Then it's up to me to say yes.

21:08 And I thought, well, I love doing this and I want to do this because I feel like it makes me better when I perform than what I learned this repertoire. so i said Yes To That. So maybe started there? It went on with the agencies Exactly, because I don't really remember but maybe it went on to two three four something like that.

21:32 Also knowing you have to pay commission to the agency... At some point obviously your fee has to develop as our agency takes twenty percent of it and so on.. Maybe not twenty for singers they do fifteen usually for concerts usually ten, or sometimes they say when there's three of five more performances and then just take ten otherwise it is fifteen.

21:55 Or sometimes twelve-and a half all these things. Fair enough because its one deal for fuckers. yeah I get that. And some days i also know an agency tries to basically negotiate their commission on top. so You know, they offer whatever three thousand years and they try to get ten percent more or maybe fifteen percent.

22:11 More. so you still get the three thousands? And they gets their three hundred something or four. nice sometimes They also tried to do that. So it's more money but it's basically just a commission that they're trying to get. That's interesting. what I heard i mean Maybe also works differently Yeah But then But then also, you have to know in the recital world.

22:34 The fees are very different. so we all maybe know the Wickmore Hall but for example it's sometimes a feels like they make work... It is an honor to sing there and just don't pay that. well And other presenters where I sing now Nobody has heard about them in Switzerland and they pay lots of money. So I get maybe like three times as much there than a week for all or something.

23:01 That's interesting, but it's always an allocation. It also Like has nothing to do with classical music, but also in the DJ hemisphere. It's quite the same right? So I mean they're better paid than famous and like. it's crazy what you can earn as a by basically. so then they do like better deals with festivals.

23:19 They already know for years that have built up And so on. this allocation aspect seems To be the rule of art In general. where from another market? if you do it for that, why did he then four five times more the same right? It's a little unfair. Right but yeah in transparent. actually I think agency would always try to do that.

23:38 when i sing certain role and I sang with some opera house for this money Why should I sing it? thousand less for this opera house? And make sense. But also makes sense That certain places give me more exposure because If your singing big city maybe Press will come. If you sing in a small city and they pay double the money, nobody will come.

24:01 so it's good for your whatever... For your money basically? You make some money but otherwise It doesn't have the exposure because Nobody comes, nobody writes about it. But as soon as you could sing at concert at Wickmahall And get four reviews saying that you're the best baritone of the world That is very helpful.

24:23 So that's why it's really hard to pinpoint down, this is my fee for recitals. I mean of course at some point you should have maybe something like that. but just think i don't sing under the money or less than whatever this amount of money. But yeah if u sell a fridge Why Should You Sell It For Somebody In Berlin For More Than A Little Village?

24:50 Its a strange thing and also makes sense in way. And then how is like the? because I talked once with a good friend of us and he said yeah, i'm getting paid um four thousand euro for for recital in america. but The thing is it doesn't include Like that. Have to book my flight by myself enough To pay hotel by myself.

25:09 so basically It's zero. some game right. sometimes Is there always different or other than also rules? That you establish With your agency was okay somewhere and this has Always covered. I mean, I like it of course if they pay for my accommodation and from my travels. But then sometimes people say yeah but don't come in... Don't fly in from Tokyo please you know?

25:35 So no business class! Yes so some times we pay for your travels a maximum of whatever three hundred euros just the tickets that show us. Yeah. So these deals very often happen in Spain, for example I have lots of concerts where it's an all-in fee. so which means uh i pay for everything to get there right and i just sing and i get that money And that's it!

26:01 Sometimes they pay for your hotel... If you think about if somebody offers you let say four thousand euros You pay ten or fifteen, whatever twelve point five percent to your agency. And if you have three thousand six hundred left roughly something about maybe they paid three-five and they pay for your hotel then I think oh that's already better.

26:26 because otherwise If i also pay these kind of Because the agency gets them money Of course like from the from the boat or Whatever a full amount. But I mean, you can calculate all these things. Do you do it? That's always what i was thinking. is there like a profitability calculation that artists will say okay um this is the most profitable area for me or this is lesser...I personally don't have lots of friends and colleagues to do it but also feel they are very unhappy with agencies because those kind And I mean, of course I could calculate and think okay now the agency gets one hundred euros more or like let's say i get a hundred euros less if i do this deal.

27:09 Or that deal? I trust my agency that they get the best deal that day can get and i think that is their profession. They are experts in it. So its not a lot of trust. but thats just what i give to them performing well, and I don't want to talk into their business. And I don' t want them necessarily talking in my businesses like oh when you sing can do your tongue a little bit this way.

27:36 or sometimes they are of course experts too but that's still my craft anyway. so what i see is really as collaboration. we're both working on something long term. I don't really care about if in this year, I could have saved a seven hundred euros If i would tell my agency but I got this job and not you then think yeah.

28:03 But also they get very often. they give jobs for me where I had nothing to do with. They talk maybe opera houses say oh can Seattle be released because he sings the reciter there? So that's why I mean, we don't have a contract or anything. But that's their commission? And I'm totally fine with that and i don't really care if, could have tried to get a better deal out of this because This is it's like in the relationship.

28:35 It was just trust. That's Like The best deals right where you're not Really like iron two like contract and contract but its Just like very organic and healthy. But obviously what Is required for that? Both parties are kind Of act on the same level Are both attractive For each other so To speak Because otherwise If one falls behind Yeah Its just Not Healthy anymore.

28:54 If we were honest singer, you're not so attractive yet for an agency. I mean some people are because Some People Are These Crazy Monsters Who Just Come Have This Amazing Voice Like You Back. Then No But Other People Would Make Their Career In The Very End. It's A Lot Of Investment For An Agency To Build Somebody New Up.

29:16 Its Way Easier To Have Somebody Established Where They Just Say This opera will call me anyway, because this is the only Heldon tenor there is on that like one of the five top tenors. So Of course I make money with us with their sky but With a young singer you don't really make any money in The beginning and it starts so they get.

29:38 give a lot of trust In you an investment? And i think Then for me, this is always a I mean i'm. It's not about being generous or something but I just really want to trust my agency how they want to Trust Me. and um And I think you know when I get it When I have somebody contacting me Can You Sing A Concert There then?

30:01 We Have This Deal Where I Think. I Talk To People About Art So I talk about repertoire Maybe organizational things like rehearsals or whenever, when do you want to rehearse? I can't do all this. As soon as it comes to negotiation... Negotiating NING? No god. Negotiations for the contracts! Or fees or anything.

30:25 then i send them to my agency even with dates because sometimes maybe they are talking to somebody. that..I don't really know what they're talking about Because sometimes its not.... I think the agent's job is also You don't get a call and then they, whatever the Munich opera house says we need an account for Figaro.

30:45 And then they say Samuel free okay? It's done deal. sometimes it takes weeks until they really figure out their whole cast. They think Okay who is the countess? Who would match this? so maybe they have something cooking in the back stove basically interfere because I have some other contacts and put my schedule, put something in my diary basically.

31:09 So it really works hand-in-hand on everything that is business related. i put give to them Because I think That's what they're experts And so they should do that actually sometimes a really admire like good agencies because obviously agencies I perceive the classical space are really like artistically driven.

31:29 So what is maybe the right repertoire for that? What should he sing at that stage of his career, and you know so kind of this long-term development in a healthy career set up which requires first a lot insights into the repertoire to market. then there's business side. obviously I perceive agencies be very different.

31:51 they're also two ones i've talked with. some seem Really seem not so much in like thinking and the metrics, I'm thinking of profitability. And then you know? And sitting down with the artists and say okay this is the market area where were most profitable... ...and this was least profitable.. ...and it's mostly artistic exciting atleast to make a very profound analysis of the whole concert setup.

32:18 but what they keep Profession is it's basically like people game right networking because obviously you have to be always there There. they had kind of like see what's going on in sales, right? So we basically have to Be present then to sell your your roster to sell the artist towards itself. That's It's huge network driven.

32:35 I perceive one of the hardest businesses to enter. so I see a lot of people Unfortunately In the classical music market who suddenly become agents and then who require about I don't know hundred two hundred euro fixed fee from an artists. And young artists fall into the trap of trusting that and then they have twenty, thirty or forty artists who pay them whatever right?

32:54 And then make five six seven K a month. Really don't deliver. because there is still I guess in market where agency kind gives young artist trust no matter if do something on Outra but like being under an agency feels totally different very true Yeah, it's kind of contradictory what's going on there.

33:12 and so because I think like a good agencies deliver is quite huge spectrum. If you travel a lot they have to meet people also. if that would happen as young singer i don't pay monthly fee for my agency but You never you can ever like check. did they really talk to this person? Yeah, right of course I could say yeah.

33:34 I talked about you with his casting director But who can prove that? yes unless your post it on Instagram. So these are the best deals because honest i mean i also understand if an hg Charges is a fixed fee Because of all the servicing. so the e-mails like The general like you know That thing thats going On so to speak.

33:52 i see that on the other hand If you're so good as an agency to not have to charge a fixed fee. That's even better, right? Because then the agency also only earns money if fewer money. so that is like you know very nice... Yes sometimes they get their deal done and then your sick but don't sing in concert And then the agencies doesn't make any money because You just get paid when YOU get paid.

34:18 So I think it was some some singers or some artists, maybe you have to just remind themselves about that kind of fact because otherwise it's easy to hold your hand and want to receive something. But I think it's really a give and take, you should always treat this way like in any kind of relationship.

34:39 And not that love relationships even friendship. if your just taking yeah its not so attractive the agency also loses interest. i think is working relationship right? let look little bit into label deals because obviously todays Monday when we recording last week on Friday On Thursday, I did two podcasts with a software company Future Demand.

35:05 And that's quite nice the alliance to that. and then we talked quite always surprised on how the label word works today, especially like with this huge shift years ago from analog to digital. Right? And in terms of the whole business model you also recorded a couple albums with let's say smaller labels and I talked us through your director there about your project.

35:33 so one but still... Like deals come together because obviously you recorded lead. Lead is probably the thing prove me wrong that it's like not listen very much on streaming platforms and you also maybe can't make that money out of but it was like a professional production. How does the financing structure look?

35:56 Do they come to say we love your project with you, do you bring up sponsors? or why do you actually record something? what is the benefit for you? Sometimes I'm wondering myself You know, the thing is everybody of course works very differently and how I got into recording was a little lucky. Münster.

36:36 Was that, the Dichterliebe? No it was one before so its called Nachtblicke. I wouldn't listen to this because is really old but we recorded this and It's a really small label That released CD which part of my price. And This label was called Classic Clips and now they're called GWK Classic. So then The Dichte Lieber was second album that i record with same label.

37:00 But They changed their names And it was basically my only contact into the recording label market. So I contacted them and said, I would love to record another CD. I have a great idea. Um, um, so we did that but they said well we need... We cannot really ...we don't have any money. And I asked them how much do you need?

37:22 I cannot really remember any figures. It was maybe something between ten and fifteen thousand, but that's still probably on the lower end of those productions right? yeah i would say Yeah, I mean nowadays definitely Probably what is your most expensive recording project? or come to that. But then I think my most expensive Was with an orchestra was and Then kind of like know the exact figures because I'll tell you later about this it was probably something around eighty to ninety thousand.

37:56 But anyway, for lead of course you just what do you need is the hall? You Yeah, I think that's I mean at basic basically That's it. if you want to do a little better than you need a photographer who does cover photos and You know all these things. video recording. Yeah videos PR would be great because otherwise nobody notices that your record is.

38:20 he'd be And let's. that's basically something that I would really strongly recommend that you have somebody Who gives this to the journalists right? Who write about that because otherwise Nobody notices it. yeah cuz they lay. i mean sometimes the bigger the label us the more they have stuff. who is in touch with journalists.

38:37 But I was at a very small label, which had maybe two people working for this label. but what i did? So I needed this amount of money, something between ten and fifteen thousand. And we've recorded also four songs which was basically creation what these songs existed but nobody record them before with a modern composer?

38:57 And i asked around for um...for money from scholarships that I have had in the past. so I think it was In The Very End. It Was Maybe A City That Was Paid By Four Or Five Companies Who Gave Me Money for that. Maybe everybody gave me two, three something thousand euros and then I had my money And um... Then we have a deal of some thing you know.

39:19 You put the logo on your booklet or thank-you note Or they receive ten CDs or fifteen or one hundred whatever They want but give to record Which is quite generous right? But i feel like alot companies also Want to do it if they have the means obviously too for generosity not to get something back, especially for the arts because you know and It's just a nice thing.

39:43 To support maybe an artist Maybe there is someone in the company who was a little nerdy indeed or whatever And kind of plus also foundation so I may be doing my studies ahead was in touch with this foundation. I won a prize for them and that told him, you know thank you so much for your support. i have this other project.

39:58 would you be willing to give me money? And they said sure! Then two thousand euros. back then...I wasn't very happy. it's not the craziest amount of money but every little piece helps honestly. So I did that..so didn't pay anything. we record the CD and our back then had a PR agent who basically helped.

40:19 It was great timing because we got lots of reviews, although we had this really small label. Because I won the Queen Elizabeth competition at that time when they released it maybe three months later and i started the Wiener Staatsoper which is also interesting for people. so People wrote about This Which doesn't Really Regularly Happen.

40:40 But then I moved on to Harmonia Mundi And They Reached Out To Me Back. Then They hurt me in some kind of competition and liked me. And wanted me to basically record for their young artist scheme, which doesn't exist anymore. back then it was called Harmonia Nova something like a open studio or four labels?

41:01 And they said please send us three. I mean there wasn't really how many when he was different company who was basically reaching out. but they worked together And you need to bring the amount of money as well, so that's quite a normal weight. That was how they approached me and there also something like ten or fifteen thousand maybe?

41:25 Maybe it was ten I can't remember exactly. And I just recorded this other CD where i got these foundations and scholarships, and I thought like...I can't do this again. You cannot ask them that two months later okay? Do we have another three thousand euros for me?". So it's not like..i'm sorry you're just too late.

41:41 if i would've known a little earlier than ...you could release the cd but ..i will stick to that label. Then so basically , i entered the conversation although was harmonia mundi way more successful and better label. But then I won the Queen Elizabeth competition, they wrote to me said we really want to record with you We will pay.

42:08 You don't have to come with money, but what could you record? I said okay now we're talking. But so that was. there wasn't really good timing for me. not everybody is. Yeah That's just a nice to see right? So like the parallel things going on and then how one thing also affects The other yes do you have to be have huge momentum in order to like yeah Maybe they think well if we don't do this no maybe Then another label comes over and says like What do you want to record with us?

42:32 And then you know Nice it's an investment for them because they for my recording, so they make bad figures basically and let's be honest. They won't make money with my CDs. but if you think about it maybe... If he is a bigger name in fifteen years or twenty years Maybe his first CD will sell more because we just need clicks And then at some point we'll make money.

43:00 So what happens to me is I don't, I never had to pay for any recording until now. Um because first I did this with the scholarships and now The deal is always...I mean we have a deal per CD. Uh i get paid To record a cd. It's something like uh..i would say A medium Medium-paid recital Is kind of Like the fee that i get plus I get a little amount for royalties ahead.

43:27 And if these royalties would at some point be higher, then i would get them in the years coming because they do every year- Ah you still will get them? But sometimes it's like also I know labels who just do royalty upfront. but then If the royalties are higher no payback to artists so full upside for their label then yeah No!

43:51 I think they usually get a thousand euros up front. And to...I mean, i'm not Jonas Kaufmann and I am not Anna Trepko. It takes little time to get this amount of money. Also like very successful artist who earn money with their labels Maybe there were times when that happened but no more. Last year I got the first time I don't even know which CD Pumped me up basically, but I got some royalties on top.

44:24 But it was maybe like thirty forty euros or something. So you could i mean oh? Maybe we talk here in thirty years. The thing is especially um Also talked with like a senior executed from Spotify last week and to just get a feeling of Streaming revenues, right? And he pretty much said okay. I told him about an artist that this artists a pionist has two hundred fifty K monthly listeners Which is also like decent on Spotify.

44:52 Right so quite quite a lot. how much money? Just like when you say yeah roughly at the artist probably gets like around thousand euros per month. Yeah That's twelve K year for that amount. Not very much right. what I want to say is it's especially in classical music. You have to be probably, In these playlists that are curated piano lounge whatever rights and Very hard to enter this with lead and so on opera can be yeah.

45:18 also then the if you search for specific piece The search logic of Spotify a little rick because obviously they're i don't know hundred hide and shop from recordings. There's not that one piece, but you want exactly so? And then also such engine optimization is actually hugely important for labels to let their albums appear at the top right in Spotify search.

45:43 Anyways it's very complex... But still like I'm always wondering how labels didn't finance it because they won't sell too much from CDs as well. No! What i probably think it works like an agency. So you always have these people who bring the money, and then you try to get new people will bring their money.".

46:06 And if that one winner is paid let's say the cash cow? Yes! I know from Harmony & Mundi for example Raphael Pichon the conductor with his ensemble Pique Maliant. they generate money for them. They also win prizes with B-minor mass, they did Mozart Requiem, Brahms Requiem... All these big things. But also, he had to maybe grow first and you know it's like an agency who has three world stars in the agency And they bring in their money then have young people that hopefully will be the world star or not.

46:44 but the money makers I think works pretty similar. And elite recording again. I mean, maybe nowadays if you have...I think If you have twenty thousand euros or something that's a very good budget to work with. You can also make recordings cheaper if you get a collaboration With some radio Radio whatever the SVA or the BAEA.

47:09 Yeah But it is not an expert in this but i know That they don't pay. Or the sound engineer is maybe cheaper because they have to work there anyway or something. So that makes it cheaper. what I did, I recorded one orchestra CD a few years ago in Poland with the Poznan Symphony Orchestra Philharmonics not symphony and... ...I had foundation who paid money for me To record this CD.

47:46 A lot of money. But everything had to go through me because the foundation, that's the Foundation rules. They support Me. they don't support The CD they support me. so then I have a contract with my label That day. give me a little bit of money To sell the rights to their label. So you're gonna be a little creative.

48:05 how can we make this work? Then We Have the amount Of Money Everybody Needs to get Paid and it all Had to Go Through Me Which Was Kind of You know We're Talking About A some of eighty something thousand euros. And I thought like, okay that comes on my account. how do they do the with taxes to pay a little attention?

48:24 But it worked. but i had to pay the orchestra and sound engineer because thats just rules of how its works. Ill do same thing again in one-and-a-half years for different orchestras in France. It will be even more money around hundred thousand euros total. But sometimes you have to be a little creative, too.

48:47 Make things work because recording an orchestra city is just expensive. if we have right? If you have forty people and even more of your sixty people sitting there like they had to get paid everybody has to get payed except for you. so I didn't really make any money Because I think because the label I mean, they paid an amount of money to towards me.

49:07 But basically I put this into the recording so i can record in orchestra CD. So that's...I didn't really pay anything for this recording but I didn't get paid because it makes sense. That's also something like I heard that if you're exclusive with a label, they also charge. A percentage of your fees?

49:36 I don't have a contract, an exclusivity contract. As you do project-wise? Yes but for example i have a project Schubert's two hundred which has five schubert CDs over five years with Amjel and they still make a contract for every CD. so of course if something would happen to the label then I will stand there couldn't really record.

50:00 it doesn't look like But I heard about this too, that the label thinks when you're recording artists with this label. That will bring so many more engagements. they also like an agency get a fee or commission from your fee? I don't know because it's just rumors. my label doesn't work but i'm very lucky.

50:26 how money really stands for quality And for yeah, and I think that's the most important. That they stand for quality... ...that i can just go there? Of course like I suggest things that I want to record but They don't come to me and say okay now we need you to record The next album with the most popular songs or the most Popular arias..I Can do whatever I Want.

50:47 if they support this of course then they pay For it which is an amazing situation. Yeah what was gonna Say? I mean let's maybe A very personal question Is there also the dream inside of you to kind-of like, how should I say? Maybe it's making this next step towards... ...the major labels and main roles.

51:14 And entering these fame opera singers' statuses is there ever a thought in your mind? It's not about the fame but definitely always this drive. that makes me want to make my next move. People talk about what was your moment that changed you whole life? Your, your life changing. You're career-changing moment and maybe I had those moments but i don't really feel like i had those because for me it never happened that oh...i won a competition or i sang a performance And then afterwards..I got so many offers That I couldn't breathe anymore!

51:49 That never happens. So its still work. But also ..it's fine Because there is this saying with this one hit wonder or something, but you want a long career. So I try to get steady step-by-step up. But of course what i would love for me label wise? I don't have that. i'm very happy with the label That I have.

52:10 um...I know they are maybe Label names that Are bigger yeah But I don' honestly Don't think that it Would Get A better deal With them than I Have Now. Whatever That Means Yeah Sounds Maybe More Important Than It Is for I sing great roles. And very happy about that what i would love is streamline a career to have a strategy of.

52:36 why do I sing there? Why does the opera house want me to sing Don Giovanni or Wolfram in Tanoza, Or something! Yeah... Why do they want me?! Maybe everybody will like it but fill the calendar with With engagements and with gigs, concerts to just support my life. That's amazing already that I can do it but something has more... more meaning.

53:05 Yeah, I see what we have to say is that we're talking already on a very high level right? So obviously your calendar's full and you perform at major roles. You are also working really hard so thats why i'm in touch with a lot of artists! Youre the one who responds extremely quicks...I remember when were trying set this up first time In Berlin Right?!

53:28 You said im doing production here And Barcelona in Barcelona simultaneously like you were singing at the evening of Berlin and it's five a.m.. You have to wake up to go to airport Barcelona, and then next day back to Berlin something. so that's like also. you seem to be also. Usually singers cannot do that because of their physical limitations.

53:48 But you seem to be very resilient and it works, right? It works but there was a crazy time I have to say... You still wanted the podcast so this kind of shows okay! Because i wasn't Berliners like. oh no not really That's tight! People who have more experience always tell me when I was your age, i could do that too but wait in five or ten years Maybe it doesn't work That you sing somewhere.

54:17 then You get up at five a.m To to sing a rehearsal Or different performance maybe or ten am rehearsal. Your body just cannot Do it and i get that. And um i know i start noticing that Too. i mean if you want to do uh i mean i watched again yesterday. i watched the u.s Open. yeah and there is difference If you If you perform, or if you play.

54:40 Or if you sing whatever. very often in a few days... ...or have some time to rest and that makes it big difference because the body is our instrument. So I can do these things but also know i won't be able to do them for my life. Plus if your singing really demanding roles. Also recitals are really demanding Although they keep voice fresh cause.. You don't need sing so loud all the time.

55:08 I was gonna say recital is more yoga, right? And maybe it may be more like... I mean that would be nice if feels like yoga but also very demanding physically because you're standing there for whatever seventy minutes and everybody's looking at you. don't go to dressing room where you cannot really drink something Walter of course, like having a drink.

55:37 So it's also very demanding but just vocally when you talked about in the beginning or something. if we want to long career maybe starting with recitals and baroque concerts keeps the voice fresh because not always to hit until the very end. You want to start slow, so when you that's also very nice because some people who started early with opera and they are not careful in the orchestra is always loud and their told oh we have sing louder...you can easily start pushing too much.

56:16 if do it for a few years You'll notice it like they lose that tone, right? So the voice doesn't sound around anymore. Yes I mean if you're a runner you don't Go straight into the marathon you try to train for it. Maybe should stretch before all these kind of things and the voice works. work similar Yeah do that?

56:39 I think it's contradictory to what the market wants, right? Because obviously there is more opportunity for opera singing. Right So you have to be like really outstanding in order to kind of build your first years only with that. and so yeah but Yeah. And then also You know i mean It depends There are some opera houses That Have Very Good Acoustics.

56:55 Other Houses Have Very Bad Acoustic. Sometimes Your You Have The Tendency That You Want To Sing Loud because Over They Are So Loud. You Have Conductors Who Pay Attention on balance, and some people maybe don't. That's not a criticism because it must be very hard to be conductor I'm sure. but all these things they play into so singing recitals To come back that is good for the voice But its also challenging in other ways And you have to work even with that kind of repertoire.

57:35 I just talked to a pianist couple of days ago about this, but it's not because i'm so great or something. But if you would ask me now... So for example I sing a winterizer somewhere and the presenter says could you come back next year again? to study more song repertoire and it takes a long time because that's longer than any opera role.

58:10 so maybe, you know also the competitions I did. they built my repertoire. So much! That i could just now offer this...I have so much experience in this field of recital singing repertoire. if you're new to opera and You are a great singer, but you have to learn your Susanna or you have two learned. Or I don't know your Tamino your Pamina whatever role it would ever fuck And voice type you aren't think that takes a lot of time?

58:41 That's why This this. i think the skill of hard-working can never stop otherwise It doesn't go anywhere somehow totally. and still I have the feeling it's just also a lot of luck and coincidence. There are these few triple AAA usually like dramatic voices who appear, let's say tenors right? And so on would just appear in the market to bring an amazing voice and all other things.

59:12 you need to fill that role. It is not more than that. Luck is huge part of it but still your nature within directly force and control everything, right? It's also limiting sometimes I think. I mean you're born with the voice that you have. of course you can train it but if your very tall or short And with a voice, it's the same thing.

59:42 I mean that of course i can train my high notes and low notes but if you're a natural bass voice ,you cannot be a tenor. It just doesn't really work! Ofcourse If your dramatic tenor who sings something like Tristan or Tanois And you're good, then. You are one of the few people so your position is way better than a lyric baritone as I am because that exists quite often.

1:00:05 even if you want to guest in opera houses everybody has someone like me some I mean vocally In their ensemble. So should they pay a guest? Should they pay me To sing this role or should they just have their ensembles? singers and all these things Are there in the back of your mind too? And sometimes people try to force themselves, go into bigger repertoire because they think maybe I have a big breakthrough with this role.

1:00:35 Um, and that's very dangerous because if your voice doesn't do that. And it's not about good or bad. It's just-it's just not your voice then you can of course damage your voice. Then at some point you won't be singing anymore and lost with all. so its a very tricky handling off. stay true to yourself but what does the market want need?

1:00:56 Also be true to yourselves. abut like What Do I Sing Better Than Most People? I sometimes wonder, like what is my unique selling point? I think that's also very interesting. Of course i can sing this role and the other one but... What do you sing better than any other roles? or which songs do i sing better then anything ?

1:01:14 Or why am i singing Brahms Rikim so good? but maybe Bach ... whatever! You name it ! And i think its important to always evaluate yourself and your voice, everything. And even in the heart because maybe you sing this so well that you love music. also I think it's very important to know what do you better than most people or great Papageno Because You're such a good actor.

1:01:46 What is coming up next year? I'm very happy that i sing opera concert and recital basically all kind of like between thirty and forty percent, whatever. sometimes you have a season where your singing little more opera or concerts. Yeah, I'll sing a Zeiss book for the first time. Nice! Next year? Yes, next summer... Is it announced already?!

1:02:19 Oh not yet. that's why we're not saying anything about the title and everything. Okay nice nice nice. I will come. congratulations. there was like last year also because of Johanna but she wasn't able to conduct anymore because Austrian law forbids if you are pregnant. they had their baby now Yeah, I know.

1:02:38 I read it in the news and I wrote them what? And yeah something like that... In Zurich at The Opera which is nice! Which goes into the opera house. all these things will come. It's amazing. i was there listening to Werther with Jonathan Tettelman. he's for example one of those right. so He brings..I mean um I don't know him but I don't know, his voice is... He can be very sharp in a piano and still like very dramatic but it sounds clean.

1:03:13 So you know what doesn't sound? And obviously he's great an actor! He looks great! He's just perfect! He has a package definitely! But they did better than openers. An openers suite isn't that big? No, it's very small. Really? And that is the thing... The acoustics with the orchestras crystal clear like I loved them!

1:03:30 That was a great house. Yeah and i'm happy about those things. we have this Schubert project going until twenty-eight. so there are two more CDs coming to bring out A Children's Book which I told you earlier about Schubert Lieders comes all in next February also on Winteriser recording where Amiel plays Drehleier the hurdy-gurdy.

1:03:51 And you know the Schubert anniversary, the two hundredth anniversary of his death is coming up in twenty eight. so we're trying to plan things for that year. Yeah yeah amazing. I mean just going and always...I have this thing i will always want improve which it's great but also sometimes very annoying, even in your personal life.

1:04:18 You want to always improve about whatever decoration... ...about the house and certain things like everything. so that's a thing that is inside me. maybe it's good as an artist but also sometimes annoying. I think if an artist really likes his art He just likes his art at that moment. It's dad, no? Yes totally!

1:04:47 And if you want to reproduce... That is another thing. If you sing a great performance and the next day or my rehearsal was great The next I go there try do same things. it doesn't work And thats really annoying. i imagine sports are kind of the same Especially something like tennis. You know, why did my whatever forehand slice always go in the corner and.

1:05:13 The next day is what it's different? I'm the same person but something has some things that our body changes or voice changes. so we have to deal with that too. And think you got a trust. the process and people try to be goal oriented where the outcome is very important. But i think What We Have To Do Is Really doing the process.

1:05:36 And sometimes it's really like, okay, I'm going back to The Roots going back two singing one or One what? Okay Oh my breathing is different Or something because I slept a little strange cuz i was laying Like this all night. or or i had reflux or i didn't have A coffee This morning or Something. It can be anything or it Can Be emotional things.

1:05:55 you Had You had To fight with your With Your Parents With Your Brother With Your spouse Whatever and I think that'S very important That you Yeah, if you're content or happy with your art that's bad. and If you are trying to reproduce because that doesn't work. And again I there times when a love That i'm doing this in their days.

1:06:17 where hate that? I am during this so it's little masochistic Kind of thing because I don't know. It's uh...It's a balance too. find everything as I think about balance life What a way to end. I mean, thanks for giving like very honest perspective on also the economic side and how you approach everything And i love follow around.

1:06:43 we are closely connected. Very happy that your singing next year far away from Munich. So thats great. Thanks so much for having me.