ACOTAR: Archeron Family Deep Dive - Fae Ancestry, Ties to Death Gods, and a Maasverse Reveal?!?

0:16 I'm Abby and I'm Ronnie. And this is Dragons in the Details, where we break apart your favorite fantasy series of the course of an undetermined number of episodes. Ronnie, how are you today? How are you today? I was going to ask you. I'm sorry, you're right, I fucked it up. It felt like it just flowed naturally. Guys, we're trying a new intro strategy where we say our names first.

0:38 We don't think we're crushing it. Let us know what you prefer. Yeah, let us know. Actually, this is a good comment poll. Let us know whether you're just thrown off when you enter our podcast and we are immediately talking about something unrelated to fantasy. Yeah, because what happens is we start having a good conversation because we're friends, right?

0:58 And we're just catching up. And then one of us is like, we should start recording. This is a good conversation. So then we just pick up the thread of that conversation. But I understand that might be disorienting to some people. So we're trying to do a real intro and we are not nailing it, I don't think. We'll get there anyways.

1:13 Abby, how are you? I'm great. I have like the worst Poison Ivy I've ever had in my life right now. And really I do. I don't know where I got it from. I don't think so. I think I got it at my parents house because I had it a little bit when we got up here, but like. It is literally meant is it from the house and I'm not gonna like dox you right now, but the.

1:34 House that we were at together. No, no, no, no. I think it's from, I think it's from New York. I think it's from my parents. House in New York from New York, OK. New York is a big enough state where people won't know. But I really, I really am not sure if I should share this because I want to be very clear that I am not a doctor. This is certainly not good medical advice and I think it's actually if anything makes Poison Ivy worse, not better. But it feels so fucking good.

1:58 I have to tell you all, if you have Poison Ivy, in my opinion, you might not feel the same way, but for me, for my body, this feels so good. Turn your shower as hot as you can get it without burning yourself. And just like if you have a detector shower head, like, just like run it over the Poison Ivy. I, I don't know what it is.

2:15 It is like borderline orgasmic. It is like the best fucking feeling in the world. I I see the disgust you're looking at me with but. It is like, I think of it as like when I put hot water on like a rash or like something itchy on my body I hate. It Oh my God, I don't know, I and it might my nerves, my, my nerve endings might be fucked up or something. And I know, I know it is not good for the rash. I know that it is not what you're supposed to do. It says to be like I just like use like cold compresses and like gentle with it and I'm in the shower, increase the inflammation, scalding the shit out of this thing, but I it just I don't know what it is.

2:51 I feel so fucking good. I can't describe it. So I've just been not only do I have Poison Ivy on both my legs, I've been scalding the shit out of it in the shower. So like, I don't know, this might take months to you. Interesting. So don't do that is what I'm just telling everyone. But anyway, how are you?

3:07 I told you I found a wedding dress yesterday which you. Did. Thank God that is often. So I'm learning that, like against all things I expected about myself, I am turning out to be a pretty Type B bride in that I've only gone dress shopping alone. And then like yesterday. I was going to say like, did your mom go with you? Like, surely not.

3:26 I just don't want the stress. Of like, having people like, come into town to do it. And then there's like, pressure to like, choose it when people are there. And then like, you get opinions that aren't your own. And so I went shopping alone the first time. I have no issue with like choosing the dress by myself with no other opinions, but you'll laugh at this.

3:48 Yesterday on the way back from Pilates, I asked our friend and I was like, do you want to like come to this with me at like 2:00 or whatever it was? And she was like, what? You're just dropping this at like now? Like, OK, I did actually choose the dress. And she was like, Oh my God, I didn't think you were actually going to choose it. I was like, I didn't think I was either, but I don't know, whatever.

4:09 I was actually going to sleep on it. I told the woman I was like, I'm going to sleep on it and then call you tomorrow. And then we were sitting there and I was like fucking, I want to be done. Order A. Full trag. Yeah. So I think that's great. It's done. It just gets so messy when you ask other people and it's like, at the end of the day, it's your choice and you could. Spiral forever, like even within your own mind, like there's always going to be like 1,000,000 other options. So if you see something you like, just get whatever. Just get it if it's within your budget. Obviously like don't advice to other people, don't be stupid. If you like it, buy it if it's in your budget. If it's in your budget, sorry.

4:45 Be financially prudent. Be smart with money. Anyway, all right, as previously mentioned, this is Dragons in the details. It is not a financial self help podcast. It is a deep dive fantasy podcast. So I hope you appreciated that tangent. And this is our our second season. You guys probably know that by now. This is like we're well into our second season here. We are focused this season on a court of thorns and roses the entire series, not just the first book. I know sometimes that gets confusing. By also known as Acatar by Sarah J Mass Disclaimer These episodes will contain spoilers for the entire Acatar series. So that is a Court of Thorns and Roses through a Court of Silver Flames.

5:26 Every book in between. We will announce any other Mass First spoilers before we do them. I think if you guys are listening to this episode, you know by now first part of our episode dedicated to Acatar only. Second part of our episode is when we get to our Mass First theories and we do do a spoiler warning before the Mass First series.

5:44 I am just going to plug once again, the Acatar section of these episodes are good there. It might even be great. Some of you might even think they're great. We're happy for that. I highly encourage you to read the Mass First if you are listening to this podcast. Do clearly care about this series.

5:58 The Math First will do nothing but enhance your enjoyment of this series. We are not getting paid by Sarah J Math. We are not getting paid by anyone. This is not a plug. I'm just telling you, I think it will enhance your enjoyment of this. That's Crescent City and Throne Glass. That is Crescent City and throne glass. Thank you Ronnie.

6:13 Disclaimer, this podcast is rated R Do not listen with your children. I don't think any of you are listening to it with your children, but we do curse like sailors. Each week we dive into a specific topic in depth. This week we are digging into our favorite human family family on Prithian, the Archeron.

6:29 So last week was our Reese family deep dive, which we found quite frustrating because there are absolutely no names to hang on to in that family. This family, we at least have a last name. We do not have a first name for Mama and Papa Archeron, but we at least have a last name. So that is something. We are coming with receipts.

6:46 We have quotes to back up any theory so you can follow along if you're skeptical. We rely heavily on quotes. Ron, you want to do announcements? I don't. Know if we have any announcements really just you already know how the season's structured only announcement is. If you guys were with us in Empyrean coverage and now you're here and act our coverage, you'll notice we have Deep Dive Music.

7:06 That Deep dive music is by a real artist named Schwidley. If you like our little Deep Dive music Jingle, check him out. He's great. He's. Great, We like. Him as a person too, I. Was going to say I like him as a human being as well as a musician. And yeah, that's it for announcements, I think. Awesome.

7:24 All right. Corrections, omissions, social media shout outs. Do you have any? I have a shout out just because I thought it was a fun little thing to think about and relevant to this episode. So we posted a clip about the bone Carver saying that a fae warrior's blood runs in some human line somewhere.

7:40 And a commenter by the name of RG Wood commented on that clip, saying that they believe Farrah's grandmother, who we'll talk about it, but it was kind of a terrible woman, seemingly was Faye. And that's why Farah's mother was so anxious about keeping appearances. And that's an interesting theory.

7:59 And I just wanted to shout it out. You didn't have much behind it, but we'll put stuff behind it in this episode. So thanks for the comment. Yeah. I mean, yeah, OK, we'll get into that. Yeah, cool. I thought you were. Going to go in a different direction? No, not really. No, I don't have anything. Abby, what do you think about the Archeron? All right.

8:20 And I don't have anything written for this. This is just kind of off the cuff. They're terrible. They're like terrible people as far as I could tell. Like, and I specifically talking about, again, Mama and Papa Archeron, not the daughters, but like Mama Archeron is described so unsympathetically.

8:34 Like, they're so little to, like, grab onto when you're trying to justify her character and like, the choices she made. It's yeah, I don't know. It's like, it's like when you compare her to other series that we've covered and other like, similarly tricky maternal figures. There was at least something at the end of the day where you're like, I know that mother loved her child.

8:54 Maybe she made bad choices. Like I know that that mother loved her child With Mama R Sherem are given like so little to actually grab onto. That makes you think that that I'm like and I know in book one, it really feels like, oh, this is going to come back. This is going to be important. But now we're five books in and it's like, is it going to be?

9:12 Is it going to come back? Is this all going to wrap up? Maybe. And then Papa Archer on too. I had never really like, picked up on this on the first read, but there's just like undercurrent of greed with him. Like, like Nesta says he was like more devastated when they lost their wealth and when their mother died.

9:29 Like, he could have sent ships to save her, but he didn't. Like, everyone told him trying to go to Bharat to get more fortune was a bad idea, but he didn't listen. Like there's this real undercurrent of greed that I didn't pick up on in the first read, but I was like, these are really not good parents, not people I would want to be raised by personally. Even though obviously Pop Archer on has kind of a redemption arc, they're still just like, I don't know, a lot of like Vadnais and unanswered questions I guess.

9:56 Yeah, I think it's interesting that no one cared about them afterwards. Like I think it's telling, right? No one cared about who the parents are, the sisters. The whole family, after they fell out of fortune like you, definitely. I mean, you get a sense of the people around them weren't good people, but you also kind of get a sense that they were probably not very good people either. Nobody went out of their way to help them when they needed it. And her mother seems terrible.

10:22 Her father doesn't seem malicious to me. He just seems weak. Like, even when he came back, it gave the sense of like a man who's been so inactive that he had to make this big grand gesture to make it all OK. Yeah, I mean, he says, he says I had, I failed my daughters once and I wasn't going to fail them again, right?

10:44 Like, that's, that's what I think Dracon says, he said. Yeah, he definitely like, he definitely is a bigger man in the end, but like the whole undercurrent of everything he did wasn't like, oh, he's a stand up guy. It was like he has so much guilt over the last decade of life. Can I already spew a crazy theory because she wants to make me think of something? Yeah, and we're going off script here, guys, Elaine says. I was reviewing the part where Feyra goes back in 1/4 of thorns and roses to her family and she's her and Elaine are talking about traveling to the continent to see the flowers. And Farah says like, oh, isn't that in the middle of the season, like the debutante season? And Elaine says, oh, this season

11:30 was really weird. Everyone acted like they didn't remember, like the like that the past 11 years had never happened, right? Like no one acted like we had fallen into poverty or anything. Like you think that either. Like the entire like, do you think that somehow either the entire like town was glamored into not remembering or do you think that's something weird was actually going on when they fell into poverty? And maybe we can get into that when we get into this episode, but I hadn't considered that yet. Well.

11:57 I think, I mean we we talked in the Tamlin episode and a little bit in the Lucian one as well about the possibility that like Farah's whole life was orchestrated. I think if that was the case, then yeah, definitely. Like, so say that Tamlin, we're going off script, guys, sorry. But if Tamlin needed to get out of this curse, talk to the surreal and was like, how do I find the human woman who is going to Get Me Out of this curse?

12:21 And the surreal says these are the things that you must do in order for everything to fall into place. So that she could, then Tamlin would have had to have interfered with the ship's going to borrow it, made sure that that failed, but then also made sure that nobody helped them so that Pharaoh would still have the hunt.

12:38 Well, and what's so weird, what's sticking in my mind is that when they fell into poverty, she describes her father as having like a cloud over his eyes, right? Like cloudy eyes. And then when their fortune comes back, he's clear eyed again. So like, yeah, was that, was that a spell when he was in poverty that he that he wasn't helping his children?

12:59 Like, what was the Papa Artron that we got at the end of the book? The actual Papa Artron, anyway. And then was everybody else clamored to like, literally not even acknowledge their existence? Yeah, right. That's what I'm saying. I mean, that's pretty wild, but. Anyways, yeah, they suck. I will say though that every Ardron that I have disliked by default so far, and there's really only one, but I suspect there's going to be a second one soon once we learn their story.

13:24 Like I come around to them. So like I before, I mean not as much as other people, but before the events of Wings and Ruin, I hated Nesta. We learned Nesta's story. I love Nesta now. I'm currently not a huge fan of Elaine. I think once we learn Elaine's story, you like you're like this. I think she's just like. She's boring.

13:44 She's unhelpful. No, I think it's more than that. She has all of this power and she's like unhelpful. She's like, I'm scared I'm going to like go in the kitchen. Come on. Anyways, I'm not the biggest fan of Elaine right now, but I think once we learn her story, like I will be. So I think like, while the Arch runs are on the whole unlikable, I think there's more to them.

14:04 And I hope that's what happens. I really hope all these threads that we get with their mother lead somewhere I like. I really hope that's where we're going. We just haven't gotten there yet. Cool. OK, Ron, you want to give the Mama and Papa Archeron contacts? Sure thing. Pharah's mother was a cold, imperious woman who loved parties, Nesta and her husband, and that's about it.

14:31 In that order. She prioritized social status above all else. It really cannot be overstated how cold of a person she was. She did not like caring for her children. She was said to have shoved Farah into a wet nurse's arm so she could go back to partying. But she did care for Nesta, frequently calling Nesta a queen and favoring her for her ambition.

14:51 She truly believed the Nesta would marry a Prince one day, and she trusted Nesta. And knew her to be like herself. She said out loud to Nesta that she cared for her above the others. So she's not a very maternal being. And Nesta describes her as a worse version of herself, herself being Nesta. So picture Nesta, but worse and a full adult, and that is Mama Artron. She was kind of disinterested in Elaine. She thought she was just a pretty face. And and Farrah she found to be, quote, sullen and strange, hypothesizing that it was because Farrah was born on the winter solstice.

15:26 Physically, she has the same gold brown hair as her daughters, blue Gray eyes and a straight nose. She is again and again said to look a lot like Nesta, who has when she's described to look a lot like Nesta, it's when Nesta is kind of picking at her long, clean fingernails. She's got this bone structure and Nesta is said to have been born with a sneer on her face, so we can kind of translate that imagery to Mama Artron. Not a pleasant person.

15:53 Not a pleasant person. Which makes it super interesting that her demise was typhus. She died of typhus when Pharaoh was 8 and Nestra Nesta was 12. And on her deathbed, she made Pharaoh vow to take care of her family, which was a bit odd as they seemingly had no relationship and Pharaoh was eight years old. And not right?

16:14 Yeah, not the oldest. Not the oldest and not her husband. What? Like her husband was completely able bodied at this time? Make this make sense? Anyways, Pharah's father, Papa Artram, was known as a Prince of merchants. So he was an extremely wealthy goods trader from a merchant family that it turned out was actually covering up multiple generations of bad debt. Pharah's father, when he found out about the depths, attempted to eliminate them by sending a bunch of ships of goods sailing straight for Borat.

16:45 And those ships were specifically to sail a very treacherous course to Borat, like the worst one, and they never reached it. And with that, all of their riches were lost. They fell into poverty. And the creditors who had been kind of circling the Archron family and this like merchant family for generations, then swooped, ransacked their house and beat Papa Archron, effectively ruining his leg and just turning him into a full cripple. And he seemingly just kind of gave up on life from there. Pharah sustained them by hunting and he Papa Artron committed his life to basically sitting by the fire and occasionally working on his wood carvings.

17:20 When Pharah is taken away by Tamlin, though, Pharah's father in a seemingly like rare show of emotion, tells her to never come back, tells Pharah she's too good for them, make a name for herself elsewhere. He really shows in that moment that he knows he's weighing her and her sisters down and kind of wishes that they would leave him, but is on a able to do anything about it. That being said, Farrah still really cares for him. She wants and needs to provide for him because of that vow that she made to her mother, who she had a relationship with question mark.

17:50 Even when she learns they're taken care of, she's still drawn back to them to warn them of conflicts. And so the relationship to her father is still one of like caring. Even when she knows that they're kind of better off when she finds out there's going to be conflict, she she goes back to them.

18:05 Then there's this kind of period where Farrah's father is occasionally around, like when Farah first returns, he's there, but then he's gone often to Neva, to other places on trade business. And we're not really sure what he's up to in that time. And we later find out that he had discovered the human Queens were traders, haunted down Queen Vasa bargained her freedom from Coach J.

18:26 How does he do this? We'll get into it. And shows up to this raging conflict between Hybrid and Prythian on three ships, the Elaine, the Farah and the Nesta, and quite literally saves the day. Like kind of wild. But after all that, after sitting on his ass over 11 years with a crippled leg, he saves the neck. Unfortunately, the King of Hybrid then snaps his neck right in front of Nesta and Elaine and Farrah who is traveling on the Cauldrons weird plane of existence, the Cauldron. And he dies.

18:53 We are told that Lucian has quite the story to tell Farrah about how he all accomplished this, which we then never hear. It is. It is just summed up in like 2 sentences. It is like And then Lucian told me the story. Yeah. What is the story? What was the story? Yeah. One additional note here is that while there is no kin on Papa Archron side, like no family, Mama Archron has a cousin named Ersten who lives on the continent. This could be an oopsie or like something that will be important later.

19:26 But Farrah and Acatar says that a cousin died of malaria en route to bar it. But Nesta says in a cord of silver flames that she wrote to her mother's cousin begging for help once they fell into poverty, and she never responded. Falling into poverty obviously happened after the whole bar situation.

19:44 So there's a cousin. More than one cousin. Of mothers, yeah, There could be more than one cousin, yeah, but there's a cousin named Derson who lives on. The there's a cousin. There's a cousin out there for sure. Anything I missed? The only thing is that Mama Archron neglected her daughter's education, which really wrinkles me.

20:02 And that is why Farrah cannot read because her mother just kind of didn't care. But she was very interested in any skills that would get her daughter's husband's potentially. So with NASA it was the dancing, and with Farrah it was the painting. With Elaine, it was just her looks, the poor girl.

20:19 And it was just being a pretty girl, yeah. Yeah, OK, Abby, did Mama or Papa Archeron have a connection to fairies and or magic? OK, so this is one of those episodes. Last episode we gave you some answers. I think this episode is going to be more of a questions than an answers episode, but I think there's fun things to think about here.

20:38 Once again, we are starting with our man Tamlin. So Tamlin and Farrah have a really interesting exchange when she gets to the Spring Court. And basically, I believe Farah is talking about she's like, I thought you couldn't lie. I thought iron would hurt you, etcetera, etcetera. And Farah says, didn't Tamlin interrupted, his deep voice surprisingly gentle. Didn't your mother tell you anything about us? Not your parents.

21:03 Didn't your mother tell you anything about us? And his voice literally changes, right? She says, his deep voice surprisingly gentle in that moment. Yeah. So why did he said? Why does he suddenly have a gentle voice? Why did he specifically ask about her mother? There's another moment where Tamlin asked about her mother. So he says.

21:21 After a rather stilted pause, Tamlin asked. How did she die? When I lifted my brows, he added a bit more softly. I didn't see signs of an older woman in your house, predator or not. I didn't need his pity, but I said typhus when I was. 8I rose from my seat to leave. We've talked about this potentially being a Damati thing, right?

21:39 Maybe he read Favorite Glow? OK, first of all, maybe he really did notice in like the minute, maybe 5 minutes he was in the house that there was no woman, woman there. And so we obviously assumed that she was dead because God forbid a woman be outside the house. I'm just kidding. I don't think Tamlin's that misogynistic.

21:54 So option one, he's telling the truth here. Option two, he might be a Damati and he might have read her thoughts. If you don't know what we're talking about, go to our Tamlin episode. There's a lot of instances where Tamlin seems to know more about Pharaoh's mortal life than he should have. I want to talk about option three that we talked about in that episode and that we just referenced, which is that Tamlin was actually maybe manipulating Phara's life.

22:14 Alice tells us that Tamlin would feel when his centuries died, right? So when he sent his sentries out disguised as wolves into the mortal lands, he could feel them when they died. He didn't necessarily know how they died, but he felt when they died. So Tamlin's bond with them as their Lord and master told him they've been killed by others. Humans, hunters, older women perhaps. So it seems like he knows that they do die, but not when they die, right?

22:39 It is straight up possible that she just is fae, right? Like she could just be fae and be 1 of Tamlin's quote UN quote centuries and he disguised her to be human to go have this family and help him solve this curse. And as we talked about, as we talked about a great length at this point, when you are human, when you are a woman in the body of whatever body you seem to be choosing in this universe, that is the type of child that you have, right?

23:06 So like Farrah had a child with wings because she was she had wings when the child was conceived, right? So if Mama Archeron was fae but was disguised as a human woman, was like shifted into a human woman, then presumably she would have human children, which is why the Archeron sisters appear to be human. And her being essentially could be a way that Tamlin knows that she died.

23:29 There's another quote, Farah. Tamlin said, and I half turn a muscle feathered in his cheek. Lucian glanced between us, that metal eye rowing, but kept silent. This is right after she talked about her mother dying. Then Tamlin shook his head, the movement more animal than anything, and murmured. I'm sorry for your loss.

23:44 Right. It almost seems like he's about to say something to her at that point, like something potentially about her mother. Yeah, when it's personal, it's like he it's. He seems like she knows her, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she could be Fey. On the other hand, would she have died of typhus if she were Fey?

24:03 Like, I don't know. I don't really think so. But if she was truly shifted and had like, a human body and a human immune system, like, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. But we don't really get any clues about her personality that she would like be Fey, you know. But yeah, I'll stop there. Where do? What do you think?

24:22 I mean, I think, I think it's super interesting. I think it's interesting to think about Tamlin having shifted her because it does seem it seems like he knew her in the way that he talks about her death and the fact that he like bothers to explain why he knew that she was dead. Like that's like a shit. Maybe I just said something that she's going to deduce is mean something else.

24:44 Like better say I didn't see any signs of an old woman in your home, which like doesn't make any sense because the signs of an elder woman in your home is like the same as just having women. And there are three of those. So like, I don't get that. What is the sign of an elder woman? An older woman.

24:59 Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think the Fae bloodline piece, if it exists, my vote is that it's with Mama Artron because we've not seen her, right? I think the whole type of stuff is strange. And the thing that actually makes me think the most that she's Fae specifically other than the Bone Carver line, which like if you're new here, then you need to watch the other episodes because we've talked about the bone Carver line like no less than 10 times.

25:24 But they will. Wear it up in this episode. Yeah, we'll bring it up. We'll bring it up. But when Pharah dies, she's brought back by 7 kernels of power from each High Lord, and she comes back as Faye, right? She comes back as Faye and changed and has all this power from these 7 High Lords. When Reese dies, Reese comes back as the exact same person. And he doesn't take any of their power. And he doesn't inherit any of their power. And I'm not saying that that means necessarily that Pharaoh was Faye the entire time, but I do think it means that there's something fundamentally different about Pharaoh's biology versus Reese's biology, which we could easily explain by discussing what Reese is.

26:05 But it's interesting, right? Like, why did these women get dipped in the cauldron, even Nesta and Elaine, and cut out Faye? Yeah. It's like, why did Pharaoh come back? Faye and Nesta and Elaine? Yeah, Why did Faye? Yeah, that's a great fucking point. Why did Favour come back? Faye? I don't have an. Answer and then the only other thought that I had is we don't have like we've never met in this like series in its entirety a witch.

26:31 But like witches are things that exist in the world of like magic and fantasy in general, and Nesta is called a witch many times throughout the series. So we don't have any exposure to a witch like species. Maybe we will. Maybe that's where Mama Archron finds her roots. And the only reason I think that is because of how many times the word is specifically used to describe Nesta, who looks so like her mother. So there's an interesting line I did right down here, and this gets back to the we were talking a couple weeks ago about the human magic wielders, the humans who could wield magic. So the quote is but we, I mean, they don't have magic. Humans don't have magic.

27:11 This is this is fairer. Talking to Reese, Reese said some do, usually the ones who can claim distant fae ancestry. But some of those spells don't require magic from the wielder, only the right words or use of ingredients. His words snagged on something in my mind. So what? What snagged in her mind there?

27:28 She says specifically something snagged in my mind. Yeah. So two options there, as far as I'm concerned. She knows her mother has fae blood or she saw her their mother at one point. Use use say a spell or like use some magic, right? Or I mean also just like snagging on the mind, but like not having actually that had that conscious thought because like there was pretty forthcoming about like what she thinks when she thinks it. Like, could that have been a memory that was glamoured away from her and she thinks about it because it was brought up? Well, I would this is I want to talk about this because the the Archeron's family fortune runs out pretty quickly after their mother dies, right?

28:07 So like, if she was a magic user, if she had these spells, you mentioned, the family has this history of debt that was uncovered after she died, right? Like, was she using magic to, you know, make people forget about the debt? Wait, like give them all these riches? Like she seemed to have been a very vain woman.

28:24 So like, was there a magical interference there where that was that led to the fortune? Because the second time there is, right? We know the second time that that that is Tamlin's magic giving them that fortune, right? Yeah. So was it the first time too? Yeah, I like the idea of her having something to do with either glamouring the debt or glamouring the wealth into existence, because yeah, it does.

28:49 It does run out right after she dies, like soon after she dies. And it's called out multiple times that like, thank goodness it didn't run out while she was alive. She would have been beside herself, Right, Right. That said, like, and who's the most beside themselves? Three times dismissed them. Yeah, yeah.

29:04 The other only, the only other note I had is that if this was kind of some kind of like fake conspiracy with Tamlin and Archer and Mama Archron, it is possible that Papa Archron knew I'm not and and all of this theory. I feel like I should say I'm not 100% convinced of this. I think this is pretty out there, but I think there's enough to talk about. Papa Archeron starts crying when Phaera brings home the wolf pelt.

29:29 Right, so the quote is. His dark eyes flick to mine. Pharah. He murmured. His mouth became a tight line. Where did you get this? The same place I got the deer. I replied with equal quiet, my words cool and sharp. His gaze traveled over the bow and quiver strapped to my back, the wooden hilted hunting knife at my side. His eyes turned damp.

29:47 Pharah dot, dot dot the risk dot dot dot dot. So like he's crying when he sees the wolf pelt, right? But like he knows she's been hunting in the woods this whole time. Like, yes, he certainly could be crying because the full realization of what he has kind of forced his daughter to do might be coming to him.

30:05 That that could be part of us. Or is he crying because he recognizes the wolf pelt for one of Tamlin's centuries and now he knows Tamlin's going to come for her and she's going to be taken away from him. The first thing when Tamlin shows up is that her father tells the 1st. First thing her father says is to go.

30:22 He says go with her, right? So again, is it? Did he always know that Tamlin was coming for one of his daughters Maybe. Like was that always the plan? I don't know. I'm not 100, I'm definitely not 100% sold on that. But like it could, it could be. I definitely think that Farrah's father is human.

30:38 I don't have any reason to believe that he's not, but I do think he knows the fairies well. And I think that not only because of like what actually happens in these books where he like, tracks down the human Queens, finds out they're traitors, finds fossa, etcetera, but because we have indications from Faera, specifically one quote where she says my father had once bought and traded a golden episode zuli pendant that hailed from the ruins of an arid southeastern Kingdom where the fae had ruled his gods amid swaying date palms and sanswept palaces. So he was this, like, big, powerful merchant who was directly interfacing with fae that did not necessarily come from the other side of the wall.

31:18 So, like, he could have known a good amount about fake culture. Like, if Mama Archeron was fae, then I think he knew that, too. Yeah, I definitely think he knew if she was fae. There was also that moment where Fae was like, my father would never come for me, right? And Tamlin specifically says he would. Yeah.

31:36 Yes, he was like, he like he knew him, right? Not like Tamlin has such a like warm fuzzy feeling like Oh yeah, I mean, all dads would, right? Because Tamlin's own mother sucked, as we know, so it's not like he's going to be like, sentimental about father's relationships with their children. So it it speaks to kind of like him actually knowing Papa Archer on something.

31:56 Yeah. Where? Which we might find out when we get Tamlin. 'S story. I would love that, honestly. All right. Yeah, I would too. Anything else for that one, Our first question. No. All right, Ronnie, why did Mama Archron tell Farrah to protect her sisters? Yeah. So again, this is probably more questions than answers type episode here, but But Farrah's mother on her deathbed, as we mentioned, makes Farrah vow to protect her father and her sisters and the quotas.

32:26 Every time I looked toward a horizon or wondered if I should just walk and walk and never look back, I'd hear that promise I made eleven years ago as she wasted away on her deathbed. Stay together and look after them. I'd agreed, too young to ask why she hadn't begged my elder sisters or my father, but I'd sworn it to her.

32:44 And then she died. And in our miserable human world, shielded only by the promise made by the high Fay 5 centuries ago, in our world where we've forgotten the names of our gods, a promise was law, A a promise was currency, A promise was your bond. This reads and acts a whole lot like a bargain throughout this series, which is very fair of her. Pharaoh's mother specifically asks Farrah to look after their family.

33:11 And this, this vow impacts like Farrah's actions basically until she's completely freed from it. And Even so, right, Farrah continues, right? Nesta is still under her care. Elaine is still under her care even though her father is dead. I think Pharaoh's mother also somehow knew that Nesta would serve the purpose of power. Elaine would serve a purpose of like being a pacifist, effectively like that's her role in the family and that Pharaoh would be the protector.

33:38 So how or why would she know that? I went to the theory that Tamlin spoke with the cereal in the Supreme Court and orchestrated Pharaoh's life. We don't know how old Mamarotron was, but we know that this curse came into effect 49 years before the events of A Court of Thorns and Roses, and we get that hint that Tamlin may have known or knew of Pharaoh's mother. So could Mama Archron have known that Pharaoh would have to do this?

34:04 Could she have been manipulated or coerced or just like known Tamlin to raise her daughters in this specific way, knowing that the purpose would be greater? I also have the. I don't know if I actually believe this, but like the thought of could Tamlin like could this have been a bargain with Tamlin in which Tamlin like might have even promised a Prince as Nesta's groom one day? And then that could also explain why Nesta was like this prize smear to to Pharah's mother.

34:31 The exact same theory that we used in the last question could be a reason that Mama or Tron had made this bargain with Pharah, so that Pharah had to do the things that she did. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because there's a lot of times in ACOTAR, in Book 1 where Phaera says my promise to my mother was fulfilled because her, like, her family is being taken care of, right? Hamlin gave her family all this money, but the actual wording of this promise is stay together and look after them, right? So when Pharaoh leaves, as soon as she leaves, she's no longer fulfilling that promise even though she thinks she is. And yeah, I think it's really interesting that we get the line that she hold on.

35:13 I might sneeze. Bless him. Thank you that she thinks about leaving all the time, but the reason she stays, which is of course why Tamlin finds her is because she made this promise to her mother. And of course, even after she thinks her promise to her mother is fulfilled, like she keeps doing it right, because they do stay together. These are trans sisters, like have to stay together because of course, at the end of Miss and Fury, they end up in Prithean Asfay in the night court, right.

35:40 So it's like these words are like really binding for these series that this like Pharah has to stay together, stay with her sisters and look after them. Yeah. I mean, we already talked about this in our intro. But like this is like a really crazy thing to put on an 8 year old child when you have a husband, when you have two older sisters. Like why Pharah specifically?

36:00 And what also is crazy to me, right? Like we talked about her training Nesta to marry a Prince, right? So like she is she's training her in social warfare. That is the exact quote. She's training her in social warfare to marry a Prince. Why not make Nesta promise to take care of her sisters right?

36:15 If is going to marry a Prince and Nessa should be the one who's taking care of the sisters, not Farrah who we are told we have quotes right? Like she's like Mama Archron is just not that fond of Farrah. The quote is it hurt. It hurt and be slow and I'd cry. I might even cry for my mother who had never cared for me. Anyway, That's when she's under the mountain. And then my mother claimed I was so withdrawn and strange because I was born on the longest night of the year. She tried one year to have my birthday on another day but forgot to do it.

36:42 Next time there's probably a more advantageous party she had to plan, right? So like she's strange and withdrawn. She forgets her daughter's birthday. Or at least she forgets to plan a different birthday party for her daughter. Like she just, she isn't fond of Fava, right? So why would she put that on Farrah?

36:57 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's it's pointing more and more towards like she's not like she is in league with Tamlin. Yeah, or someone. Yeah, or. Someone. Yeah. And oh, this is so funny. I actually have the same note I said. Random thought. Did she make some kind of bargain with Tamlin to give him Farrah to break the curse? And that's why she's so cold with her and doesn't bother to teach her any social graces, because she knows Farrah. She's going to the fake, which is terrible, which is terrible, but like, this is not a nice woman. Yeah, and it also would make sense that if she she doesn't view Farrah as a pawn to be used, she's just like, OK, whatever.

37:38 Like I'm sure she would get something out of that bargain. Well, maybe she got all those riches and then she dies. Right. And so the bargain, I mean, like, Tamlin gave them their fortune the second time. Maybe Tamlin gave them their fortune the first time. Yeah. To trade for Faera. I mean, there is another moment, too.

37:53 I have this quote written down. There's there's evidence that, like the Archer on specifically, we're trying to turn their daughters against the fae. I realized they live in a human country where, like, they hate the fae. But the quote is Nesta focused on her breathing again. She knew how to swim. Her mother had made sure of it thanks to a cousin who had drowned A childhood murdered by fairies, her mother had claimed. I saw her dragged into the river. So her mother is taking her cousin's drowning and saying that her cousin was murdered by fairies, which is probably not true given everything we know.

38:25 Like, yeah, there's a kelpie that drags, that drags nest into the water, but that lives in the middle and nowhere. Else yeah. So it's like, were the Archerons trying to turn their daughters against the Fae to fulfill the terms of Amaranthus Curse? Or at least was Mama Archeron trying to do that? If you look for it, there's evidence. It also could be nothing, you know. Yeah, yeah.

38:45 I think that's where I that's kind of where I'm at with Pharaoh's mother in its entirety. Like, does the whole story work if she was just human and Pharaoh and her sisters were turned by whatever they were turned by? Sure, Yeah, yeah, totally. But it's fun to point out. There might be more here.

39:03 There might be more here. OK. Anything else on that? One Nah, nothing else. We're good, OK? We're good. Abby. Why did Mama are drawn favor Nesta and try to get her to marry a Prince? So I actually, I just straight up like your theory from before that. Like I didn't really have a theory. Like I I was like, look like there might be a simple answer here.

39:24 Like Nessa's the one who looks the most like, like her. So she's going to favor her obviously, and try to get her to marry a Prince. I like the idea that you said that. Like what did you say? What was your theory? I liked it. Maybe the bargain, oh, you're going off and like saving all the fae was that Nesta gets to marry a Prince.

39:44 Like, maybe that's what Tamlin promised, Yeah. Or someone Tamlin or. Someone, I mean, that's like a little whack a doodle, but yeah, Tamlin or someone. What I what I like about this? So there's a couple the couple lines here that that make it sound like again, Mama Archron maybe knew what was going on or what was going to happen, but you know, also could be nothing. We shall have to petition your father to go to the continent when the time.

40:08 Is right, her mother had often said. There are no men here worthy of either of you. They haven't even hadn't even been considered this point. A sullen, strange child who her mother ignored human royalty rules. They're still Lords of Dukes and Princess, but their wealth is tapped out, many of their states nearing ruin. 2 beautiful ladies with the King's fortune could go far. So this is the quote.

40:27 We've talked about her calling Farah sullen etc. But she says there are no men here worthy of you, right? Not there are no males are worthy of you, right? So like that's kind of a fun. Probably just a wink wink, not nod from Sarah J Maas. Probably doesn't mean anything but then. Well, she that actually sounds more like they're just people. They're just humans.

40:46 Yeah, like that could be. Like there are men. There are no men here worthy of you, but there are men elsewhere worthy. No, I think that's the I mean, that's probably the correct reading. But what's fun is that like we get the whole Tomas storyline with Nesta, who of course was not worthy of Nesta, and then she marries Cassian. The bone Carver calls Cassian the Prince of bastards, right? And this that we we get this call at once and then we get a flashback to him saying the words the Prince of bastards. So it feels important.

41:17 The quote is what if I tell you what the rock and darkness and sea beyond whispered to me, Lord of Bloodshed, How they shuddered in fear on that island across the sea, how they trembled when she emerged, she took something, something precious. She ripped it out with her teeth. Cassian's golden brown face had drained of color, his wings in tight. What did you wake that day in Highburn, Prince of Bastards? So we get that quote in Mist and Fury, and then we get it. Or I guess we get it in Wings of Ruin. Sorry, it's got to be in Wings of Ruin. We got it in Wings of Ruin, and then we get it again in Silver flames.

41:48 Cassian is remembering that quote. We don't know anything about Cassian's father, right? But like, is he a Prince? Like the Bon Carver has a tendency to say these very what we think might end up being very prescient things. He seems to be very intentional with his words. We've talked about the ancient fae warrior and the Archron bloodline.

42:07 So like, is Cassian a Prince? Was Mama Archron in fact preparing Cassian, preparing Nestle to marry a Prince this whole time? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. That would be fun. I certainly think we're supposed to draw those two together. I I think we're supposed to make that connection. We probably don't have enough to make a prediction right now, but I do think there's a point to it all. Yeah, I like the idea of Cassian's father being important, but terrible.

42:33 That would be fun. I can't wait for our Cassian episode, mostly just because I love him. So we love Cassian like he's, he's, in my opinion, far more fun to talk about than than Mama and Papa Archron. Oh yeah. So we're having fun. We're having fun. There's another quote. So we know that Mama Archeron, like, taught Nesta.

42:52 Social warfare. Social warfare quote, UN quote. There's a quote when Nesta is reading one of the books that Cassian gave her on real warfare, and she says it was astonishing how much the art of warfare was like the social manipulation her mother had insisted she learned. Picking battlegrounds, finding allies amongst the enemies of 1's enemies. Some of it was wholly new, of course, and such a precise way of thinking that she knew she'd have to read and manuscript many times so fully grasp its lessons. So these skills that her mother taught her are helping her relate to Cassian.

43:23 And then of course, you know, she she blows him away with the dancing with Eris. So like, yeah, it wasn't like pivotal, wasn't like fundamental, but it was a big part of their relationship. I mean, yeah. And I think it was, in a way the fulfillment of everything that Mama or Tron had worked on her with.

43:41 Because Eris is as good as a Prince, right? And was immediately like, sign me up for that. Yeah. Like right, she gets a marriage proposal. Yeah, she literally gets a marriage proposal just from her dancing abilities. For the second time in her life. The second time that that happens to Vester, yeah. So yeah, yeah, whatever.

44:01 Whatever she was going for, she was successful. I'll say that Nestor could have her pick of the litter, but she chose the Prince of Bastards. The Prince. Of bastards though, yeah. Did you have anything else on this one? Most of my answer to this question became the next one. Oh great, I think we should just skip to the next one. Great.

44:23 I'm excited. Ronnie, how did Papa Archeron convince Koche to release FASA? OK. So I'll say before I start here that I'm going a little, going a little whack a doodle, like a small bit. We need a whack a doodle scale. There's reason 5. There's reasons, yeah. All right. So. So Papa Archron finds Vasa, who is a human queen bound by a curse, in which she is a firebird by day and a woman by night.

44:49 And she is first by a death God named Koche. Papa Archeron negotiates, which I assume means bargain something beneficial to Koche here for Voss's temporary release to aid the humans. So the way that we learn about this is first from Drake on saying that he, Drake on and his legions met up with them on the flight here.

45:10 We saw them crossing the channel and decided to join ranks. It's why we're a little late though we gave them a bit of a push across. I can't even begin to explain the convoluted story they told me. But they're led by a queen, a queen named Vasa, who apparently was found by and then Ferris assumes Lucian.

45:29 She says Lucian and Drakon says who? The male with the I? No, he met up with them later on, told them where to go to come now actually. So pushy, you Prithian males. Good thing we at least we're already on our way to see if you needed help Who found Vasa? Nesta said with that same flat tone, as if she somehow already knew. He calls himself the Prince of Merchants. Drakon said apparently he discovered the human Queens were traitors months ago and has been gathering an independent human army to face Hybrid ever since.

45:58 He managed to find Queen Vasa and together they rallied to this army. Drake on shrugged. He told me he's got three daughters who lived here and that he failed them for many years, but he would not fail them this time. Then that's later corroborated by Lucian, who says I've got one hell of a story to tell you.

46:12 And don't be surprised if FASA corners you as soon as the ships are sorted and the sunsets. And Farah says is she really? And Lucian says yes. But your father ever the negotiator. A sad small smile towards that burnt grass. He managed to cut a deal with bosses keeper to come here temporarily, but better than nothing. But yes, queen by night, Firebird by day, nasty curse. So the first interesting part of this question is how does Papa Artron know where to find Bossa the SEC and we'll get to that. The second question is like, what did he bargain to Cochet to get Bossa freed?

46:47 So let's just start with a little bit of backdrop on Cochet, because if you read these books one time you probably forgot about him like I did the first time I I read it. So Cochet is what's known in Prythian as a death God and was called Cochet the Deathless because there is no death waiting for him. That's why he's called that.

47:05 He is immortal, like real, real immortal, and he's the brother to the Bone Carver and Striga and was captured and bound to a lake by an ancient Vay warrior that the Bone Carver tells us about, whose bloodline runs in some human line. He is said to be a powerful sorcerer, sorcerer with a particular affinity for capturing and binding women with curses. Jurian says he's an old Death Lord above the wall with a penchant for enslaving young women. And so how did Papa Archron know where to find Basa? We're told that Papa Archron somehow found out the human Queens were traitors, so he could have feasibly deduced that the missing queen Vasa would have been loyal and set out to find her.

47:46 But remember, we only knew what happened to Vasa because of Elaine. Like the only reason that we knew Vasas curse even existed was because Elaine saw her as a firebird. And Papa Artron found her before Lucian did. So he had a way of finding her. Then we also have this ancient Fae warrior who was responsible for binding coaching. So here's here's like kind of my crazy theory that I, I came to here.

48:10 So we've already talked about how Mama Artron could very well be more than met the eye and that she might have had some of that fae bloodline or some trace of something else. What if she was a magical being? Works that could have been bound to human form by Koche himself? Especially if Koche was bound to the lake by her ancestor. And then Papa Archon would have known who he was, what he's capable of.

48:34 Like this is like revenge, right? Of Koche. Like your ancestor locked me in this lake. I'm going to bind you. He knew Koche found women by curse and Papa Artron sought him out. That's my thought on like how maybe Papa Artron knew who Koche was and knew to find him. So then let's see whether the rest of the theory works and talk about what Papa Artron might have bargained.

48:57 One simple answer is just his life because he did die. The more interesting answer is, is a little bit more complicated. So Nesta is relentlessly compared to Mama Archron, but there is no resemblance at any point mentioned to Papa Archron. Nesta has also been described as a queen and a death goddess on multiple occasions in this book, and Koche is a death God. Shriega is also described as a queen who is king of Heinberg calls her.

49:24 Yeah, a queen. Yeah. So could she? Could Nesta, specifically Nesta, be born of Koche or a line from Koche related to possible encounter with Mama Archron like years ago? Is that why Papa Archron knew who he was? Knew how to find him? Could Nesta be a queen of death from Koche? In which case could Papa Archron have bargained? This is terrible but could he have bargained Nesta and said you can have Nesta?

49:50 I feel like there's something there. I don't think he bargained Nesta. Yeah, I don't want to blame you, Nesta. Gave me some. No, there's no way he did because like he came back and he said to Nesta, like I have loved youth from the moment I saw it, right? Like I don't think he bargained Nesta. Yeah, but like, what could he have had that crochet would actually want? Well, I thought about this, right? Because the death gods or death God adjacent things, they're both offered freedom and they don't take it, right? Brie Axis and yeah, the Bone Harbor are both like, they're like we can get you out of here and they're like, no, we want to stay.

50:23 I don't think I don't know that I'm going anywhere with this. I don't know that Papa Archron would have the ability to do. That yeah, it's like, I feel, I feel pretty good about the like, call it 15% possibility that Coach Shay and Mama Archron had a run in at some point. If Mama Archron is a descendant of the Pert of the Fae that that bound him.

50:44 Like well the other person that that could be is Vasa. Vasa could be the descendant of the fae that bound him, which is why he is now capturing Vasa. But the Queen sold Vasa to her. Yeah, so hence gave gave Vasa to him. And what's really like, oh this is what tickled my brain. Koche wants Nesta right in silver flames.

51:04 He is after Nesta through Free Allen, but like he is after Nesta. But maybe the bargain died when when Papa Archron died. Or did he just become aware of Nesta through Papa Archron somehow? Maybe, yeah. Yeah, and I. Still think it's interesting that the bone Carver said she is a queen, as my sister once was. Well, and Lanthus wants Nesta when we meet her. Him too, right?

51:29 Like everyone wants Nesta for some reason. Yeah, right. The bone Carver compared, like, compares her to Shriga specifically. Like says Shriga was once a queen. All right. So the quote is, it's a, it's the follow up to that Prince of Bastards quote, right? So what did you wake that day in hybrid Prince, Prince of Bastards? My blood went cold.

51:47 What came out was not what went in. A rasping laugh as the Carver laid the Shard of bone on the ground beside him. How lovely she is as new as a fawn and yet as ancient, Ancient as the sea. How she calls to you a queen as my sister once was. Terrible and proud. Beautiful as a winter sunrise. So that's about Nesta, right? Well, first of all, the bone Carver clearly just knows about Nesta, right?

52:09 If the bone Carver knows about Nesta, then I think it's totally like Koche just knows about Nesta, right? Because he says he like hears it through the wind, the wind bones, her name, right? So then Koche would know too, especially if they're all like connected by being made, etcetera. Like if she became, if she like somehow became a deaf God. And this is not our Nesta episode, but we'll get there. I don't think it necessarily has to be that. Are you implying that Koche is her father or that Koche wants her as his bride?

52:37 More like whatever Koche is, Nesta has a part of that. I mean, I was gonna get into this in our master section, but there is certainly a lot of implications that Nesta was not human before she went. Yeah, before she in the cauldron, Right. So where is it? Yeah, so this is, these are all Acatar quotes, right?

52:59 Like truly from Book 1 before she goes in the Cauldron. So she'd been made differently from something harder and stronger than bone and blood. She was as different from the humans around us as I had become. Right? So that's about NASA. She wore a simple pale, pale lavender muslin gown, her hair half up and billowing behind her in a sheet of gold brown, beautiful, imperious still as one of the high Fae, right?

53:21 So there's that. She's saying she's high Fae, but we don't know that. And then Tammy's glamour don't work. Like what? Yeah. I definitely think there's an implication that NASA maybe had a different father or maybe is just something else. Could be the same father, but just with some magic infusions there.

53:40 Yeah. OK, cool. The crazy theory on that one is that Mama Archeron was bound by Coach J. Maybe she was called back when she died, quote, died. Maybe that was like the end of her life out there. And maybe that's how Papa Archeron knew to find Coach J and maybe he bargained Nesta. But I think most, I kind of think whatever what the bargain was, it's like because she's still free, whatever it was either went away when he died or there's no real end necessarily.

54:14 Like something just is true and needs to remain true in order for her to stay free. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's definitely, there's definitely something, there's definitely some connection between Nesta and Koche. Yeah, I mean, Koche is after Nesta for some reason, probably because she's one of whatever he is. And could that have anything to do with pop Artruns bargaining power?

54:35 Maybe, I don't know. Do you have anything I like better for this? Question. I definitely don't have anything better. I don't even really have anything, just that I agree with you. I think it was probably a bargain because that's what we typically get with death gods. We get a bargain. We do not know the terms of Shreega and Reese's bargain, but we know that they had one because he had a tattoo from her.

54:53 We don't know what he had to give up. Maybe it maybe it was Reese's death too for Shreega, because he dies. So yeah, maybe part, maybe it was as simple as Papa Archer on giving his life. But I like the idea that there's a Nesta connection. Yeah, and if he gave his life and it's fulfilled and she would just come back. Yeah.

55:12 Well, that's what I don't really get is like they keep on like extending the terms of the steel somehow. Yeah. And I think Lucian at some point describes it as like a little bit of a loophole. OK. All right. We can move on. We'll get into it. All right, Mass first time everyone. Sorry. Sorry to all of you who have not read the Mass first, but this is where we get into our Crescent City and our Throne of Glass spoilers.

55:34 So if you have not read the Mass first, love you bye and we will talk to you next week. If you have read the Mass first, feel free to stick around, or if you don't care about spoilers, feel free to stick. Around Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye. Abby tell us was Mama Archer on human? Okay, so. We've already talked about this ancient fae warrior, a little bit of speculation on who this ancient fae warrior could have actually been. But I want to be clear that this is like a very, very loose theory.

56:01 I don't have a lot of evidence like it's it's not this. I just want to point out that this passage exists. So again, to read the quote, you have met my sister, my twin, the Weaver, as you now call her. I knew her as Striga St., she and our older brother Coach J, how they delighted in this world when we fell into it. How those ancient faith feared and worshipped them. Had I been braver, I might have fighted my time, waited for their power to fade.

56:25 For that long ago Faye warrior to trick Striga into diminishing her power and becoming confined to the middle Ostray too confined and bound by his Little League on the continent. All before Prythian, before the land was carved up and any High Lord was crowned. So that also means this wasn't like the time of Celine. Clever, that fae warrior.

56:43 Her bloodline is long gone now. Their trace still runs through some human line. He smiled, smiles a bit. Sadly. No one remembers her name, but I do. She would have been my salvation had I not made my choice long before she walked this earth. So it's not Celine I want to talk about that. Because a lot of people, because there are lines in Crescent City where Celine talks about hunting down the Bone Carver, hunting down other terrible things and putting them in this prison.

57:08 So people think this ancient fae warrior is Celine, but it is not, right? Because he says her bloodline only runs through the humans now and Celine is 100% Reese's ancestor. Like that's not possible. Yeah. And also like at least the way I interpreted this, and I don't know whether this is a fairway to interpret it, this Faye warrior bound Coche and Striga in other places. And so I don't think it needed to be somebody with access to the prison, which is strictly Thea's bloodline. So I think it's somebody else.

57:40 It's somebody else. I do think Celine trapped the boat Carver, but this ancient fake warrior is not Celine. All right. And we talked about we talked about Mama Archeron has very distinctive blue and Gray eyes. We think this might have been Mama Archeron's descendant or ancestor, could also be Vas's ancestor.

57:57 But let's play the game that it is Mama Archeron's descent ancestor. When we meet Aylan, Selena, Sardofian Aylan, her eyes are just typically described as turquoise, right? But when we first meet her, when we first get the description, she says at a passing glance, one might think her eyes blue were Gray, perhaps even green, depending on the color of her clothing.

58:18 Up close, though, these warring hues were offset by a brilliant gold, by a brilliant ring of gold around her pupils. Right. So initially we get that blue or Gray description, which is how the Archer on's eyes are described. I don't think this is Aylan. I want to be clear. Like, I we know Aylan's story like she never goes to, well, she goes to Prythian for a second. But like, as far as we know, she doesn't like end up in Prythian slaying death gods.

58:43 That doesn't seem to be what's happening here. Yeah, at least not in our story at. Least not in our story, but I think, you know, I think they're this might point to there being a tie between the Archer runs and the Ash drivers. They're Ash driver eyes, right? So potentially another offshoot of the Ashraver family.

59:01 I don't know. That's kind of the most I could come up with. I don't think it's Alan, but I think I think it's an interesting connection that Sarah J Maas was potentially trying to make. All right, other options here. I think you want to talk about this. Lots of popular theories online that she could be a witch, a throne of glass witch.

59:18 The Archeron sleep in an Ironwood bed, which we find out was a wedding gift from Papa Archeron to Mama Archeron. The Throne of Glass witches make their brooms from Ironwood, right? So that seems like a pretty obvious crossover. She only has daughters, which is only have daughters, right? Nesta carves into the stairs at the House of Wind with her nails, right?

59:39 So when she's falling down that the stairs in the House of Wind, she gouges her nails into the into the. Stonewall. And they are able, she's able to stop herself that way, which is pretty crazy. Obviously Iron tooth witches have those iron nails. Her mother, Anna Archeron's mother, Grandmother Archeron, sounds a lot like a kind of version of the Blackbeak matron.

1:00:05 So the quote is this is Nesta talking. Her mother's mother had been the same way before she died of a deep rooted cough that had turned into a deadly infection. Nesta had been 7 when the stern phrase Dame who had insisted on being called Grandma Ma had beaten her palms raw with a ruler for missteps in her dancing lessons.

1:00:24 Worthless. This clumsy girl, you're a waste of my time. Maybe this will help you remember to pay attention to my order. So that just sounds a lot like Manan's grandmother. Just like very cruel, very mean, just like abusing her granddaughter. She could just be a bitch. She could certainly just be a bitch.

1:00:40 She doesn't have to be a witch. The other thing that I thought was interesting here and a tie to potentially the idea of like iron teeth, iron being in their bodies, is that Elaine and Nesta both have mental gates slash Shields of iron, right? So Elaine's this is the gates to her mind. Ferris says she doesn't have Shields, but the gates to her mind are solid iron covered in vines or flowers.

1:01:08 Or it would have been the blossoms were all sealed sleeping buds tucked into tangled leaves and thorns. So iron gates with Elaine Nesta's gates have been described as an ancient fortress and are also steel and iron and ashwood, right? And that's before Favor is a Demati. But like we have this idea of Nestas mental Shields being an iron fortress basically.

1:01:29 So there's a lot of which imagery going on with the Archer rods. And I know there's a lot about the mother maiden Crone also being Farrah is the mother, Elaine is the maiden and Nesta is the Crone. I think that one's a little more. There's not like that's just kind of like gut feeling, like there's not exact quotes speaking to that one.

1:01:47 And that of course, is the three faced goddess that the witches in Throne of Glass worship. Yeah. You want to talk about that one? I know you have a lot of thoughts on that one. I mean you've recap most of it I think the the ironwood. The fact that Nesta has so much nails imagery in general. Like yes her stopping herself but like picking at long clean nails.

1:02:08 Also being described as looking exactly like her mother. Grandma Archeron has like some of the same words describing her as the black beak matron. So definitely a lot of consistent imagery there. Nesta also not even knowing what a witch was just said yes I'm a witch in the Illyrian war camp. I asked are you a witch and she says yes.

1:02:30 I think that if their line is a witch line. Sarah J Maas was definitely giggling to herself during that one. Like ha ha. I'm just telling them and they're probably still going to wonder. So yes, she she calls herself a witch multiple times. I don't have great ideas on how it could tie to anybody that we know really.

1:02:50 I think the Fey bloodline running through humans in Prithean like an Acatar only world. I think we've only got 1, maybe 2 interesting human lines. That's the Archons and that's Jurian's line. And so like that maybe were then led to Archons because of all of the famous that happens with Farrah and crew.

1:03:08 But there are other human lines and other books that are interesting, right? You've got Bryce's line, you've got Dorian's line, you've got a bunch of other human lines that that could be related to as far as like how witches could have gotten to them. We don't have tons of, in my opinion, couples to go off of here, like Elite and and what's his name? Lorcan are very dark colored.

1:03:30 So I don't really think that's valid. Like I don't. Think I guess elite is a witch. I always forget about witch. Blood. Yeah. And it would make a lot of sense because it's very faint. Yeah, but they're very dark hair, dark eyes doesn't really work out. We don't know the rest of Manon and Dorian's story.

1:03:44 And so Manon is very blonde, Dorian is very dark haired, Manon has gold eyes, Dorian has blue eyes. Like, I don't know. But if they did have a line, it would be insanely powerful, not just like a shred of blood in somebody. Unless like tons and tons of time had passed and it got got deluded over time.

1:04:04 So I don't know. I like the witch thought. However, none of that ever plays out right like Nest. As far as we know. Denier Farrah has the power of 7 high Lords and Elaine is Elaine is probably the closest to like. With the seer. Thing with the seer thing closest in power to she be witchy. So this is and this we probably should have talked about this last episode too, because the thing that I, and maybe I'm wrong because I read Throne of Glass like pretty quickly, but and this is part of why I'm rereading it, right?

1:04:33 But the thing that I don't get with Throne of Glass is that the witches don't really have any power except for the yielding, right? And they have like they're good in battle and stuff, right? And some of them take take drugs and see things, but like they don't really have any magic. And they are the offspring of the Valg and the FEC, which is, of course, even if we take out the idea that Reese is an asteri slash Valg and super powerful because of it, right?

1:04:57 We have Dorian certainly being the offspring of a Valk, right? And being super duper powerful implied because of it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I need to double check that, right? But like, so why do some Valg seemingly produce insanely powerful offspring? And then this whole race of witches who I know they've been cursed, but I thought that curse was more about the land, not really about the witches themselves, right? Like, yeah, why do the witches not have any power? Like I can't.

1:05:24 I just can't quite figure that one out. Yeah, the, the morbid thought that I have there is like, and if you listen to our last episode, you know that I now have stuck in my brain a connection between Valg and hell. Like it doesn't matter. Both of those species, she's experiment on living beings, right? And so witches could have been a very specific type of warrior that they were shaping towards that was basically a like kamikaze warrior effectively, right? Like they're they are really good in combat. Like they fight ruthlessly.

1:05:57 They literally like RIP people's throats out with their teeth. They're really good warriors, but like they're strongest when they die. So were they just bred for combat exploding? Yeah, so that the magic was specifically not bred into them. Do you want to know who that makes me think of who we know the Asteri created is the Illyrians. It sounds like the Illyrians, right? So like same idea where they needed warriors to fight for them, right.

1:06:24 And like the yielding and the Illyrians only have magic in battle. That's what they say. Like their magic is specifically battle. And the Illyrians were bred with that intent. By the Asteri, exactly. Yeah. So maybe that's what it is. Maybe the witches and the Illyrians are this each world's version of this.

1:06:41 A steri valk may be the same thing may be different. Yeah, Warrior. Yeah. Warrior Breed. OK, that makes sense. I hope you enjoy the tangents guys. I hope you're here for to talk about. The whole that better tangent we're hypothesizing whether Mama or Tron was human. Yeah, yeah. So I had a couple more notes on it.

1:07:01 Could she have possibly been a seer? Like, maybe we talked about that Nesta does marry the Prince of Bastards, right? And the dancing helps. She encourages Farah's painting race. Reese first sees Farah painting and like, that helps him fall in love with her. Maybe. But I don't think there's nearly as much evidence here as there was with Reese's mother that we talked about in the last episode. So, like, I don't really think she was a seer. I don't know.

1:07:25 Do we want to talk about this? There is an idea. I feel like Nessa and Farah both have their mother's eyes right? And Elaine doesn't. And Nessa and Farah adapt to being Faye pretty well. Like I know Nessa has problems later on but like out of the gate like they they're pretty comfortable being Faye and like Elaine doesn't.

1:07:48 So I think well. Or is it like is it was Mama Archeron human? But then Farah and Nessa's father is not Papa Archeron. He was like something else. But Elaine is Papa Archron's child and we know that Papa Archron like favors Elaine the most. That's kind of an out there theory. I don't think it's out there with respect to Nesta.

1:08:07 I think with Ferra it's harder because she specifically. Has the youngest daughter's mouth. Oh, good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I, I actually like, I don't have evidence, but in my head it's like 5050. Nesta is Papa Archron's daughter. Yeah, it just doesn't. There's nothing about them that's similar.

1:08:25 And so. And she hates him. I mean, she fucking hates him. She hates him and she feels terrible about it, and it causes a lot of issues for her. Yeah, I like it just. And that's another piece about the witch thing is like, that's another part of Manan's journey that's so hard for her to reconcile is the fact that she is just, like, bred to be emotionless and struggles really hard when emotions overtake her and, like, do rear their ugly head. Like, she really, really is challenged by that. And so is Nesta.

1:08:54 Yeah, it's a great point. All right. I'm sure we will talk about more that more in our Nesta episode. Yeah. Certainly. OK. All right. Last question, Ron, are there word marks around the Archeron's door? Soy, Yes, yes. Let's talk about why. So in A Court of Thorns and Roses, Fair's father convinces a passing charlatan to engrave markings around the threshold of their cottage to ward off fairy harm. So quote the recounting from Fair is that my father had once convinced of passing charlatan to trade. The engraving is against fairy harm in exchange for one of his wood carvings.

1:09:33 There was so little my father was ever able to do for us that I hadn't possessed the heart to tell him the engravings were useless and undoubtedly fake. Mortals didn't possess magic, didn't possess any of the superior strength and speed of the fairies or the High Fey. The man claiming some High Fey blood in his ancestry had just carved the whirls and swirls and runes around the door and windows, muttered a few nonsense words, and ambled on his way. This quote makes me think of 2-3 interesting things. One, obviously we know that it doesn't matter whether mortals possess magic when wordmarks are in play here, right? So wordmarks, as a refresher for everyone from Throne of Glass, are symbols that just inherently

1:10:12 produce magic, whether you have magic or not. Well I just reread this part and that's what I thought too because they work when magic has been when there is no magic anymore. But there is a line and I and I don't know that there's an answer because that's definitely how I remembered it. So I feel like you are right.

1:10:28 But there is a line where Alan said, sorry, Selena says that you need to have magic in your blood in order for the word marks to work. But she says that when she's literally drawing the word marks in blood. So I don't know, because she's also obviously able to get the word marks to work when she's like, shackled in iron and when there is no magic. So I'm not.

1:10:47 I know where you're going with that. And I had that same thought. And I'd like it. I'm just not sure it 100% works. Yeah. Well, I'm just doesn't really have to. It just would be well yeah, I'm trying to. Well, I could go back and do a study of who uses word Marks and when, but I'm sure they all have some form of magic.

1:11:04 The closest thing I can think of is the witches, but like they do. But anyways, this guy who did it claims to have some high flight Faye blood in his ancestry. He doesn't even need to be part of the ancient warriors line, honestly. We know that there were crossbreeds and we know that in the case of crossbreeds, they usually ended up with the human mother on the human side of the wall. So it is feasible that this man who carved these word marks did have high Fay ancestry and therefore the word marks should have worked, could have worked.

1:11:33 And then those marks are described as whirls and swirls and runes, which also this is like out there that made me wonder, are the bargain Marks and tattoos that are in like inked on people when they make a bargain? Are those word marks? I think they are I. I have Precrog theory about almost exactly that, not exactly that, but very close to that. So we'll get to it in Precrog, I think, yeah. I think every whirl and swirl we see in this series is probably a word mark.

1:12:02 Yeah, if it says whirl or swirl, it's a word mark. Honestly, yeah. So anyways, we know from spoiler here, like we know from the Throne of Glass series that they're similarly described, similarly described markings to all of this called word marks. We also know that Papa Archron has been subjected to glamour before, so he could have known what these were when he was asking for them.

1:12:25 He also could have not like he could have been manipulated into asking for them in some way, shape or form. So what are word marks typically used for them? So notable uses of word marks, right and thrown glass. Cain uses it to open a portal to another world to summon the rhetoric and other beasts. Nehemiah uses it to close portals that came open. So she basically chases them around and closes all these portals.

1:12:49 They're also open used to open and close portals to other worlds a few times. They can be used to simply stop people from crossing into a specific area. Like the King of Aderlin uses it to prevent Alan from getting into the castle and Queen of Shadows and Alan uses that same word mark later on Manon to trap her.

1:13:08 She also uses it for the creature under the library so that he doesn't get through the threshold, which is exactly the scenario we're talking about here. Yes. Yeah. Word marks are also used by Alena to seal Erawan into his tomb. So they can also be used to seal, and they can be used to summon.

1:13:24 So Dorian summons Gavin using a word mark. So what purpose could the word marks around the Archeron's cottage have served? They clearly didn't keep Tamlin out. So if they were word marks in the attempt of actually physically blocking Fey out of the cottage, they didn't do that. You're looking at me like you know.

1:13:44 Something but they did well again, it's like tricky wording, right? Because it says, I believe it says they're supposed to protect against fairy harm. They did protect against fairy harm. Tamlin doesn't harm them, right? Like so like it does work and they're never attacked by fairies. Like Amaranthus cronies are out and about in the human lands and like they are never attacked by fairies so.

1:14:05 Like I actually think these word marks did work. Tamlin, when he arrives at the cottage is is a growling shape in the doorway, does not break into the home. Like a vampire, he needs an invitation. Well, no, but Farrah does say those ridiculous words on our threshold were as good as cobwebs against him.

1:14:23 I should have asked the mercenary how she killed that fairy. But his intention wasn't harm. Yeah, that's my point. His intention was never harm. Yeah, maybe they did work. Yeah. So like, that's the easiest answer, right? Is like, they are what they said they were intended to do, but if it were trying to block Faye out, that doesn't work.

1:14:41 They didn't keep Tamlin out. They didn't keep Cassian out. They didn't like, nobody got blocked from entering the home. However, like, like you said, like no one was ever hurt in that cottage by any form of fairy harm. What else do you have on this? I got more into what are word Marks and how much are they used in this world?

1:14:58 Do we want to go down that that road or let's just let's just chat about it now because there's there's an interesting idea here. We see Ameren use word marks multiple times, right? So, and I don't think don't think there's any kind of question that their word marks. She uses swirls and whirls in the summer court when they're retrieving the book of breathings.

1:15:19 The quote is. I reached the door, sliding the box into the wide inside pocket of my leather jacket, while Amerens blazing palm flattened against the door, earning heating the metal swirls and whirls radiating out as though if it were in a language all her own. And so again, swirls and whirls. That typically means word marks.

1:15:36 There are also whirls on the door that is guarding the Book of Breathing, and on the wall itself. Right, so on the door it says. I wipe my hand on the only clean part of me, my neck, and use the other to scrape away the last bit of mud from the round door. Every brush against the lead sent pangs of cold through me. But they're a carved whirl in the center of the door. So there are word marks actually, all around Prithian, right?

1:15:59 And I want to talk about why there would be word marks all around Prithian when seemingly the Valk, I'm going to say seemingly we know the Valk have maybe been there, but the Daglund certainly had a much yeah, a much higher presence, right? So Ameren says when Bryce comes into Prythian, Ameren says that the Bryce's tattoo on her back is in the same language as the Book of Breathings, right?

1:16:24 I think it is safe to assume. But I will say we do not have a smoking gun at the Book of Breathings and Bryce's tattoo are written in the language of word marks, right? I think, I think we can say that Rigilis tells Bryce that her tattoo is written in their language in House of Flame and Shadow, right? So he's an Asteri.

1:16:42 So he says I can teach you things you've never even dreamed of. Rigelous promised. The language inked on your back. It is our language from our home world. I can teach you how to wield it. Any world might be open to you. Which is, of course, what happens with the portals in books One and Two and Throne of Glass, right? You can open a portal to a world. So this fits, I think that the word marks are the language of the Asteri, are the language of the Daglin, which is why there are word marks seemingly all over Printhian, right? You mentioned in a previous episode you think that all these made things are talking to Farah in ancient Fae. I think they're talking to her in this language, in the language of the word marks,

1:17:21 which is a real language because Nehemiah and Selena both speak it at different points, right? That's my thinking. So who is this passing charlatan and why does he know the language of the Esteri is a great question, but it also could just be that like he's seen it around because it's all over Parthian because it is in all these places.

1:17:42 But yeah, really, where did this passing charlatan like learn this? This language, I think is a huge question. And I think what you were getting at before is because we've been told humans who don't have magic, who don't have fake ancestry can wield magic. Is that because it's word marks which would make?

1:17:57 Sense we are and we are directly told that. So if not word marks then what? Right. Like sometimes it is just the spell, like the words themselves, that hold the power. Reese confirms that. What? What did you say? Her tattoo. Bryce's tattoo. Is written in wordmarks, yeah. Well, it is written in the language of the Book of Breathing, which we think is word marks. But the Book of Breathings is not. The Book of Breathings was Laishan Hakadesh. Did I make that?

1:18:25 Yeah, I think it. I think it's, but I think that's wordmarks. So this entire magic system is based on Biblical Hebrew. I realize that that is a. Real hackadash is. I realize that that is a real language, but I'm telling you that I think the leash on Hackadash and the language of the Asteri and the word marks are all the same. I think they're all the same language as my. Yeah.

1:18:47 OK. Because if we want to summarize it, because word marks are described as whirls and swirls, that's what they're described as. And there are whirls and swirls all over Prythean. And we know that the Daglin, who were the Asteri are who populated Prythean. So it's from them. I guess my own only question on that would be like, if the Book of Breathings were written in the language of the word Marks and whirls and swirls are word marks like this shouldn't be that foreign to like, Farin should at least recognize it, right? Like, yeah, everywhere.

1:19:19 Like her hands are covered in that. Maybe, but like she doesn't even know how to read so like. She does so I don't know. Yes, potentially. They're not everywhere. Everywhere. Like they're on her door potentially and they're she notices them on the gate. But yeah, it could be, I could be wrong. It could not be the same language for sure. OK, all right, all right, Pre cut corner. You want to go first corner?

1:19:45 Sure. I have like basically nothing, but it's a fun little call out since we're talking about the Archons. So this puts everything kind of on its head, I think. But maybe you'll talk me out of it. Putting everything out on its head, the river Acheron is the river of the underworld that people cross to go into the afterlife.

1:20:05 Obviously, Acheron is not the same thing as Archeron. However, if Sarah J Maas was feeling cute and put Archer in Acheron because Pharah kills a fae with a bow and arrow and that's how all of this sets off, then there is a river in this universe that has bodies of the deceased ferried across it. And that is? The E Rose River in Lunathian, there is a sailing that describes the act of sending a body across the river. There's a death mark that you get to like go into the the underworld.

1:20:39 It's basically a point of judgement. If you had a good life, then you get in and if you don't, then you do not. We know that this whole process was actually like very corrupt in the end, right? Because we found out that the under king was basically just like harvesting bodies for a stairy power.

1:20:53 But what if it was once something that was not like that? And that is where the Archron's family actually had their start, or at least like some ancestry that did that. And that's how they got the name Archron. I don't know, just something. Probably nothing. Yeah, I mean, they call on Nesta, Queen of Death. Right.

1:21:12 Yeah, lot of death imagery with Nesta specifically, Yeah, could be. And they have like a bunch of, yeah, they have a bunch of Crescent City imagery. So I don't know. That's all. Could be. I like that because, like, obviously she chose that name for a reason, right? Yeah. Cool. OK, mine. So we kind of previewed it, right? But yeah.

1:21:32 So the Illyrian tattoos are constantly described as whirls and swirls, right? A queen of shadows. Alan paints tale with word marks to protect him from the Val King when he's going to face off the Val King. That's how he ends up injured but not dead. We are told in Crescent City three that the Illyrians were made by the hysteri to be their foot soldiers, but then that they were part of the rebellion who overthrew them, right?

1:22:03 I am wondering if Illyrian tattoos which are like a cultural thing at this point right? What if the origin of the Illyrian tattoos with that they were word marks to protect the Illyrians from the Asteri, but they became like the language was lost. The origination of the tradition was lost, but that is where it started. And it it kept going because they overthrew the Asteria. It's kind of like a way to celebrate this overthrowing of the Asteria and the protection that the tattoos give them, because in theory they're word Marks and they do give them protection.

1:22:35 Yeah. So you're saying that they were created when the Illyrians stopped serving the Asteria, or wanted to stop serving the Asteria? Yeah, I'm saying they were used as a defensive tool in this war against the Esteri. And then that is where this tradition of the Illyrian tattoos came from. And that's why only Illyrians kind of have them, because they were like the foot soldiers in that war.

1:22:58 Yeah, I like it. I mean, I think that the fact that tattoos always mean something, and Prythian specifically, they have, I mean, something. It has to be like, what's the word? What am I trying to say here? Like, they don't recognize Bryce's tattoo, right. Like, they don't know. They, they recognize Bryce's tattoo as being written in a different language. And the Illyrians don't recognize their own tattoos as being written in another language. So like, maybe they're not word marks anymore. Maybe they started as word marks, but then it's become these more like creative designs, essentially. But like, was that the origin of it? Was that it was like, why they have not? Yeah, exactly.

1:23:35 Yeah, I like it. Could be cool, could be all right. What are you reading? As previously discussed, I just finished I Am Pilgrim. I'm currently rereading the parts of House of Flame and Shadow that have to do with this series. I think I'm probably going to just restart Crescent City at this point. I did watch all of Wednesday.

1:24:00 Nice. How was it? It was great. We just got Netflix back. We didn't have it for a while. But I mean, I love Tim Burton. Genius, man. I can't say enough good things about him, even though he's a little macabre. He is. He's a little weirdo. Certainly he's a little weirdo. He is a little weirdo, yeah.

1:24:19 So yeah, I'm excited to. Well, I guess I'm actually sad because now I don't have Wednesday to watch, but I feel like I've got so much TV to catch up on, so I'll pick up something soon. What about you? What are you reading? I'm still reading, throwing a glass. Can I confess something like a deep dark secret on this podcast maybe?

1:24:35 I really liked Kale and Selena. I thought they were really good together. And then of course it all goes to shit. I get that. And I remember the first time reading, I hated Kale and I hated that he sent her to Wendling was like out talking to her. But for that one week, they're together in Crown of Midnight. That one week.

1:24:54 I liked it. I liked them. I thought it worked. I understood. I don't know. I think I also, you know, this like, I liked Tower of Dawn. I think Kaol is a good character. Oh, Tower of Dawn, a great book. Yeah. Like, I have a lot of sympathy for Kaol. I think he makes some bad decisions, but like, I don't think he does anything with like, I'll intent. And I know a lot of people compare him to Tamlin and I'm just like, no, I.

1:25:18 Don't. Definitely not that bad he's doing. The same at all. He's honestly, I think this is like not great, but I just think he's like kind of childish in some ways, like naive. Like that was why I didn't like him. But I think they were like the healthiest, most normal relationship of all the relationships that transpired, including Eilan and Rowan. Like, first of all, aren't they related distantly? OK, so like we need to get into this enthrone of glass because Eilan and Dorian, they're certainly related and she certainly knew that when she started hooking up with him. Well, they only kissed, but yeah. Yeah, they only kissed and spent some nights together, but apparently they only kissed.

1:25:58 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, she knew. She knew she was kissing her cousin, basically. I mean. Yeah, well, I don't know, like, what's worse, being related or starting off your relationship with a punch in the face? I don't know. Like the only true enemies to lovers that Sarah J Maas has ever written was Rowan and Aylan.

1:26:18 About to reread all of it so I'm sure I'll have different opinions soon. But like Aylan and Rowan is the the worst romance in my mind. Like in terms of romance like for the Sarah J Maas series like they've never really did anything for me if I'm being honest. I know people are all like Oh my God but where is my wife and I get it but like I don't know and I am about to reread it and I was pretty hung up on her working things out with Kale so maybe I'll have a new opinion on it.

1:26:43 Now, I think I liked Rowan a lot, but I agree with you that the development of their relationship was complicated. It frustrated me so much. Like there's all this tension and then he just like, smells that she's aroused. And then it's like, OK, we're together now. I'm like, what? That's it? Like that's just what's happening here.

1:27:03 Like you smell her neck and like, you're made it. Like it was so weird. Yeah, all. Right, we are on social media. We are drags in the details pod on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. But you can e-mail us at dragsinthedetailspod@gmail.com and we are on discard. Our server is, you guessed it, Dragons in the details. I guess no pod that time, but just Dragons in the details. I think that's it.

1:27:27 Talk to you all next week. Love you. Bye. See. You next week, love you. Bye.