ACOTAR: Lucien Deep Dive - Courtier, Spy, Keeper of all the Secrets?

0:17 Maybe it's something, maybe it's nothing. Someone, I think I, I think I told you, someone commented, this is a real Ronnie. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's everything. It's like, well, we're learning our catchphrases as we go. It's really never in between. I agree. I mean, that's the nature of this business, right? Maybe it's absolutely nothing, or maybe it's going to turn your entire forest side down.

0:40 Yeah, I mean, that's it. This is for our listeners. Hello. Welcome. Nice to. Nice to see all of you, I guess not see all of you, but I just told Ronnie that I had a fun banter topic. This is not the fun banter topic, but I feel the need to tell you that Derek this morning described me as bubbly. And I was like, excuse me?

0:56 And then he was like, OK, maybe not bubbly, but like, you laugh a lot when you're happy. And I'm like, yeah, but I wouldn't call myself. Different. For our listeners, Ronnie will attest my nickname in college was Crabby. To this day, people refer to me as Crabigail. She's. Still in my phone as crabby. I'm still in her phone as Crabby. I'm in another of our friends phones as Grumpy. Senior Bubbly is not a an actor usually used to describe me, but.

1:24 That was yeah, definitely not. OK so my fun dancer topic was going to be I saw Sara Bareilles in concert last night, which I know is so random. I know it's so fucking random. Like I I, she's not my thing. Like I don't like her. But my uncle was up here. I was like, hey, what? He was like, hey, I have two extra tickets to see Sara Bareilles. Do you and Derek want to come?

1:50 And it was like this benefit concert. It was just her and a piano. It was very small. It was super. It was fucking amazing. She was so good. So, so, so good. She is so talented. And I was literally like, I was like, yeah, sure, I'm excited, but like, it's not, you know? You know, she's not. I'm not listening to Love Song on repeat, you know, like I appreciated it, but I'm not like out here listen like listening to Sara Bareilles.

2:14 But she I I truly feel like I've never just gone to a concert where I've appreciated how talented someone is, you know, but to the extent that I did last night, I was just like, she is unbelievable. Like she's so fucking good. And now, Oh, so here's a hot tip. She's writing a new musical, apparently.

2:32 I mean, she like played. Yeah, well, she wrote Waitress. She already wrote a music. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. So she's writing a new musical and I'm like, I would go see this. I would go see this musical now. Like I I was fucking blown away by her. She comes from a singer-songwriter era where there was a lot of raw talent, which is raw talent in people who could sit down with a guitar or a piano and, like, perform. Yeah.

2:55 Did she play? Did she? Was she her herself? Her No, just her and a concert piano. At one point she played guitar. At one point she had another guy play piano and she she sang a show tune and she was like, this is a very famous show tune. You're all gonna know and sing along. And I was like, I don't, I don't know this song.

3:12 I can't tell you what it is. Did you record that? No, there's nothing about like, I love him. And I was like, well, I'm not going to be able to Google that. There's certainly many shared dudes about that. Topic was it on my own from Les Miserables? No, no, it was not that. I know that song. I know that song. I'm pretty covered on Les Mis because you made me listen to the Les Mis soundtrack.

3:31 Hamilton, Wicked, Phantom of the Opera. Matt. No, I don't know that much Phantom. Like those are the three I got. You know, like the one song that says Phantom. Of the yeah, that one. Wow. I just saw on this podcast. That's terrifying, but it's fine. So Sara Bareilles, if you can see her in concert in a small venue, like just fucking blown away. Just blown away.

3:58 Unbelievably good. Just great. And so such a random thing. I'm at the beach. That's why we have a different background here. So it was just such a random thing. Well, I'm jealous, yeah. I. Love live music? It's the best. No, I'm happy for you. I'm happy that you found a new artist that you respect. That like doesn't happen every day. That's fun.

4:17 Fact. Plenty of artists. I just don't. Respect, but you know what I mean. All of that, yes. You saw Sara Bareilles was fun Poppy before. Oh yeah, and that and then it's so she played love song and and she didn't play it last. It wasn't like her closer or anything. She was like, it was like her third song and she literally goes.

4:35 She had this great stage presence the whole time. She was like having fun. She was like, I wrote this song because my label told me I had to. And then she does the opening course to love songs. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is fun. This is good. Yeah. Cool. So that was fun. So I'm a little sleepy today, but it was worth it.

4:50 It sounds worth it. Yeah, I would be sleepy for a concert. Yeah. Well, hi guys. Hello everyone welcome. I'm Ronnie. I'm Abby. And this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. I know we might have some new faces. Listeners here.

5:12 We are embarking on a new season. We have published 2 episodes so far this season. This is our third. And this season is focused on A Court of Thorns and Roses, the series, not the book by Sarah J Mass. So disclaimer, these episodes contain spoilers for the entire Acutar series, all 5 published books. If you have not finished those five books, go no further. You will be spoiled.

5:34 We are going to announce any Mass for spoilers ahead of time. And for those who are maybe new to the fandom, Mass Versus a term for all of Sarah J Mass's works, which includes the Thread of Glass series and the Crescent City series. So we will announce those ahead of time. We're going to keep them to the end.

5:49 For those who have only read Acutar, all five books, I stay until we say math for spoilers, and we'll say that way later in the episode. So we've got plenty of content that includes no spoilers for any books except for those five. Each week we dive into a specific topic in depth. We are following up our Tamlin deep dive, which came out last week with an episode on his maybe trustee, maybe sidekick Lucian, Lucian Vancera. We come with receipts, we will have quotes to back up any theories.

6:20 So you can follow along if you're skeptical. You do not have to follow along. You could totally just listen to this for fun. I know a lot of you listen. You message us that you listen like at work on Monday mornings or when you're taking care of your kids. Like we also just want to be a fun podcast that's here for you.

6:33 But if you like to keep up in the books, we're going to make that possible for you as well. I love when you guys e-mail us that you list chose at work cuz I'm like what is your job? What is your job that you could listen? To you can yeah, right, that you can pay attention to. This, like this podcast, requires a level of attention and I know that means that some it's not for some people, but.

6:50 Yeah, I know. And I have to wonder too, like do you listen twice? Like do you listen once? Cuz like I sometimes do that with podcasts, like with I listen to this podcast that I'm obsessed with. I think I've told you about it. I listen to this podcast called Morbid and when there's this like an episode, it's a true crime podcast. And so when there's an episode about a murder like story or sometimes it's like somebody who almost was murdered and then survived.

7:14 And those are much more uplifting. When there's one that I like, loved, I'll sometimes listen to it while I'm busy just for the vibes and then I'll like listen again. I'll be like, I have to pay attention this time. I don't know, I don't know if we're worthy of a pay attention second listed, but if you're just here for the vibes, that's OK too.

7:28 We appreciate you. We appreciate you. All right, heavy announcements for the. So Ronnie mentioned our Agatar mass first structure a bit, just to go a bit more into detail with that. The way we're going to do that, the first part of our episodes are always going to be a guitar focus. We're going to try to make the majority of our episodes a guitar focused and then have just some mass first questions at the end. I'm going to tell you guys right now, not for this episode. Don't worry, you have plenty of time. That's not going to be possible with every single topic. I won't get into when and where that is, but there might be some episodes this season that might have to be more heavily focused on the mass first.

8:01 Just warning you about that now. And as Ronnie said, you're going to get a spoiler. We're going to be going into deep dives this season. We have a lot more material to cover. So we might be, we haven't totally figured out yet. We might be structuring our seasons slightly differently. So Ronnie just mentioned we did Tamlin last week. We're doing Lucien this week.

8:17 This is kind of our spring court module. We're starting with this because this is how course our series starts. So we're starting with Spring Court and then we're going to kind of move into other modules to keep ourselves focused on specific areas of the books. We also might not do character episode deep dives the way we have done them in the past. We might focus on a specific part of a character. So for example, instead of doing a Reese deep dive, we might have a Reese family tree deep dive that's currently in our plan. So kind of more focused episodes. We think that's just going to be better for everyone. Might lead to shorter episodes.

8:47 We're not sure. If you want shorter episodes, let us know. We're happy to try to apply. We'll do our best to any feedback. Yeah, sometimes we just start chatting though. Start. Yeah, there's nothing to be done. One other thing I wanted to mention, it's not our outline, but I forgot we you might have noticed we have deep dive intro music this season.

9:10 So we have some new music that is music from Schwidley, who is my boyfriend, I will tell you right now, but he's he's also a great musician. You should check him out on Spotify. He does really great, like electronic type stuff. He's a wonderful musician. So that is Schwedley. SCHWODLEY. He did not tell me to plug him. If he ever listens to this, he might be embarrassed, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

9:31 He deserves the plug. He deserves the plug, I agree. It's a fun little clip. Yeah, so if you like our intro music or our deep dive music. Check them out. Check them out. Also, this podcast is rated R. We curse, we curse. So don't listen to this with your children. I forgot about that. That's my bad. I will edit out any cursing that we have inevitably already done prior to now.

9:52 But these books are spicy. These books have curse words. We also curse. So this podcast is is rated R. Please do not expose any children to it. Cool. All right, corrections, omissions, social media shout outs. Abby, do you have any to share with the class? I do have one. Do you have any? I have one. OK.

10:12 Is it about glamouring? No. OK, all right, that's fine then. So we don't know the same 1. So I went back because we talked about doing the Tamlin episode, whether or not all high Lords could glamour or if this was a unique trait to Tamlin. And we know that Reese can do it. So whether it was just Tamlin and Reese or all High Lords, I don't think we have an answer on all High Lords. But Tarkin definitely can't glamour, right? So we know this because when they are in the summer court trying to figure out whether they should chase the hybrid armies or they should kind of stay and defend where they are. Oh my God, I can't remember his name. Tarkin's nephew recommends, says why don't we, why don't we cast a glamour?

10:49 Why don't we make it look like we stayed, but we'll also move. And Tarkin is like, could you could you do something like that to Reese? And Reese says, oh, I could do it with Pharaoh's help. So Tarkin is surprised that Reese could cast such a powerful whatever. So it's not a skill that all of high Lords have.

11:05 So we have so we know Reese can do it. We know that Tamlin can do it. This second piece of this I kind of wanted to talk about is the glamour that Farrah cast, because we get Farrah's point of view of it feels very different than what Tamlin does to Elaine and Papa Archeron. So she said it was like applying a thin film over all those living in the camp that would then separate when we moved out, separate and grow into its own entity that walked and talked and did all manner of things here while we marched to intercept Hyburn's army hidden from sight by Reese.

11:35 So it's like she's kind of creating something like outside of herself rather than going into Highburn's army's mines and like erasing a certain thing that happened. So it's like there's there's glamorous and then there's whatever Tamlin did. Oh, I also did want to mention that Cressida, who is Tarkin's niece, she can also clamor.

11:53 So it's not it's not necessarily only a high Lord thing, but there seems to be the glamouring and then what Tamlin does. And then I just I know, I know I've been Harvard on this a bit. The Tamlin's that they mighty thing. But like, we do have two examples of Reese talking about what it sounds like Tamlin did to Elaine and Farah's father.

12:12 So he talks about wiping Valeris from the minds of the Night Court when they're under the mountain, he says. And as I felt my powers being ripped away by that spell she'd put on me at the toast, I flung them out one last time, wiping Valeris, the wards, all that was good from the minds of the Court of Nightmares, the only ones I'd allow to come with me.

12:28 Right. So this is erasing a memory right from from the minds of the Night Court. And then he also does it with the pics after Colani. So he not only erases their memories, he makes them confess to having betrayed Amarantha, right? So he is now erasing memories and planting ideas in the minds of these creatures. Which is exactly what Tamlin does to Elaine and Papa Archeron when he makes them think that Farrah was taken away by Great Again.

13:00 I'm not saying that Talon is 100% definitely a Damati that we're getting that reveal, but like I do think she has written it that way that she could decide later on that if Talon were a Damati she would have enough to back it up. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think, yeah, I think we need to just learn more about glamouring in general.

13:17 And I think we might like, I think we're going to learn more about Dracon and Miriam, who also one of them can sustain glamour. Dracon seems to be a Damati. There is a moment in the battle with the his arm with the King of Hybrid where he is talking to his army mind to mind. Like Farrah says she sees him relaying messages mind to mind basically. So he seems to be a de Maudie as well. Yeah, I agree.

13:40 So curious. All right, what was yours? Mine was a social media shout out. I do have a correction, but then it turned into my pre code corner theory, so I unfortunately have to keep it silent. But social media shout out. So we posted a bunch of clips and you guys know we are fans of a court of Silver flames, We're fans of Nesta, we're fans of Cassian. I just want to set the record straight here because I think some people had some really strong reactions to some of our Pro Nesta clips.

14:05 I like Pharah. Oh. My God. I really. Like I do not. Think you need to be anti one sister to like the other. Pharah is a fabulous protagonist for the first three books. And by the way, she's one of the two first person PO VS in this entire universe so I 100% recognize her importance. I think she's critically important. I love her.

14:27 She is just easy to love and therefore doesn't really need defending in my opinion. But I want to be so clear, I love her as a character. Being pro Nesta does not make you anti Faera and I'd like to completely shut down that narrative in our comments section please. Completely, I'm getting the same shit.

14:44 I'm like, whoa, hold on. I never said I didn't like Faera. I never like we never said that. Like same with same with Cassie and people like Reese's. Reese sucks and I'm like, no, no, not what I said. Just because I love Cassie, it doesn't mean Reese. Sucks. Like I'm going to really struggle with the re sucks comments once they start flooding in because I'm so against that mentality.

15:04 Yeah. So we posted that clip where I was like where I pointed out that Pharah treats Nesta the way that Tamlin treats Pharah, right? What was really trying to do with that clip was point out a kind of crazy parallel, right? And then people were like, yeah, Pharah sucks. She's such a bitch to Nesta.

15:20 And that people like, Nest is so terrible. Why would Pharah be nicer? And I'm like, holy shit, From the brakes, from the brakes. I'm just pointing out a parallel here like. Guys, two different points of view. Like two different points of view. They're written that way for a reason. We are meant to to empathize with both of them. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing so. So think and you can disagree with me if you want. This is not that podcast.

15:46 This is not a podcast where we're going to sit around and debate whether characters are good or bad, right? We are here for series. We are here for what does this mean? Like like we're going to do an under the mountain episode. I we're not going to talk about Reese under the mountain. Like as far as I'm concerned, that's not really interesting theory wise.

16:03 Like he explains his actions. I'm not here to make a judgement call about that. You know, like you can, that's that's fine. But like, that's not that's this is a theory based podcast, not a I'm going to make judgments on characters podcast. Yep. So I agree. Cool. Except for our intro episode where we talked about how much we love all of these characters. So like, yeah.

16:26 Yeah, I do think like it's only human to like and dislike characters. Like I'm not going to say that I will never express dissent or love for a specific character. That's not realistic. But no, we don't have to agree. And also, I like Pharaoh. That's the crux of the social media channel. I like Pharaoh, Yeah.

16:44 Yeah, no, I totally I'm, I am like what the fuck is what's happening here? I didn't say that. This fandom is very opinionated and we love you guys for it, but we ask that you please be civil while you. Discuss. I agree. Please be civil. I mean, yeah, it's it's just, they're just books. We're just here to have a good time. Here to have a good time.

17:04 Ronnie, how do you feel about Lucian? How are we saying Lucian's name? Cuz I say Lucian. In my head, it's Lucian, but I know that it's Lucian. OK? I know that it is. So I'm gonna try my best guys to say Lucian. If I say Lucian, I'm sorry. It's just the way. It I guess in my head it's Lucian. I don't know why. Like Lucia from second season of White Lotus or her name was Lucia.

17:26 Never mind. Yeah, Lucia is an Italian name. Lucian I think is French, I wanna say. Yeah, well, Lucian. Which would be. Lucian is French. Yeah. So I don't know, I feel fairly confident that it's supposed to be pronounced Lucian in the context of this series. But I'm with you. I say Lucian in my head, all right. Well, we'll go with Lucian, we'll go with Lucian, we'll go with.

17:45 Lucian and you guys let us know what you. Think RIP us in prior in the comments. Yeah, sure, we can take it. All right, Ronnie, how do you feel about Lucian? So there are Lucian haters. I am not one. I'll just say that right. I think I really enjoy Lucian's character. I think he is the dark horse of the series.

18:05 He's a dark horse in the series. I am wary of Lucian. I'm not sure whether he's wholly good or wholly not good or somewhere in between, but I feel like on the scale of good versus bad, he's good. Like I feel good about him. He is clearly lost. The only family he has, his family he finds. I really like that about his character and like how much you wonder about where he really belongs. And it's clear that he cares for Farrah even when it's inconvenient for him.

18:36 Like he cares for what's right. I get that sense from him as he as he kind of progresses throughout the series, like he's trying to do the right thing mostly. And you can see the like wrestling in him when he's doing something that's not right or when Tamlin more accurately is doing something that's not right.

18:54 But I do think he loves Tamlin as well. And so he's kind of tragic in my opinion. Like I like him as a character because he's interesting, but he's tragic. Like he's, he's got this complex family history and he's got this like family that he hates that isn't even his. He's not really connected to his real family. So he finds this band of exiles and he feels out of place in Pharaoh's court, even though he's mated seemingly to his sister, her sister.

19:19 But I think, and this will become clearer as the episode goes on, I think he's underrated in his importance. I think he has way more to do in this series than he's done to date. And I'm kind of surprised that the only real theories that I've seen floating around about him are about his mating bond with Elaine.

19:34 He is the only son of the high Lord of Day. He has a as critical of a role as Reese does in making sure that Feyra actually frees them all. And he has this, like, mysterious eye and this connection to all these other courts that no one quite understands yet. So yeah, I'm interested. Wait, talk me through your second point.

19:50 He has as much a role to play as Reese does. You mean under the mouth? The reason she doesn't die as well. Under the mouth. Yeah, underground. Yeah. So they're illusion haters. I'm not one. How do you feel about Lucian? So I know in our intro episode, I was like, oh, Lucian. And I want to walk that back.

20:08 I want to walk that back. I want to say I think I was too harsh on this imaginary person. Like, yeah, I literally wrote my notes. Like, Tragic is in like, all caps here. Like, his life is so sad. Like, nothing good has happened to this man. Yeah, like his lover was murdered in front of him. He literally hears her heart stop beating by his father.

20:32 He's being, well, the man he thinks is his father. He's being held down by his brothers, his mother. Like, I know she's he's her favorite son, but like, she, she doesn't, like, see him under the mountain, right? Like in the second trial, Like, she is not there, actually. Sad. Yeah. He's just like he really can't catch a break.

20:51 Like he was desperately in love with Jasminda. Like he still is, seemingly. And like Elaine is his mate and she doesn't. Anything to do? But like he at least thinks Elaine is his mate and she's not even like giving him the time of day. And I'm not saying she does like she has to. I'm just saying like on top of everything else that has gone like so tragically terrible and Lucian's life, it's like I feel bad for him. I, I really hope in book 6, even though I've firmly planted my Elaine as real flag and that flag is still planted, I'm really hoping we get Lucian point of view chapters or at least Lucian third person POV chapters and like get more of his story because he absolutely deserves a happy ending. You know, like.

21:33 Yeah, and for how long he's been kind of like AI won't call him a main character, but like a significant character. It's interesting that we didn't get a single POV of his yet. Like, that's weird. He's been around for longer than Reese has. Yeah, we got more. We didn't get Lucian. That's. Kind of interesting, Lucian actually has been with Farrah kind of the longest. Like he's barely in book 2, but like he's he's in all of book 1 and then from book 3 on, although he kind of disappears. And This is why I think I felt so mad about Lucian when we were talking about episode 1 because he's barely in Silver flames. He's kind of barely in Wings of Ruin. Yeah, and he's just like, not.

22:16 Really set up for all this tragedy. And then he just is like, well, I'm of no use here. I'm going to go to the continent. Yeah, yeah. I mean, his mate is like practically a trial to him. So I mean, we'll get to that. But like, he's absent. I kind of get why he's absent. Yeah, it's understandable. It's understandable.

22:34 All right, shall we deep dive all? Right. So I want to talk about this a little bit. Well, I want to talk about a lot. This kind of like the evolution question, right? Are they actually made? So for context, I'm doing what you do now, and I'm saying context is important, Lucian declares here. Oh, I have. I have a little bit of context.

23:00 So, Lucian, we start. With what mates are. God, I can't answer that question. Can you answer that question? Well, I have the context. No, go ahead. That's fine. Should we start with what mates are? Well, I mean we I guess maybe we should start with what we don't know about mates. Like we first learn what mates are from Tamlin. He says they are an equal, a match in every way. He also says they're uncommon and that Faye Mary without one. And then later we learned that not even Reese, who seems to have had an extremely thorough education, knows random languages that nobody else seems to know, might know about other realms, Dread Trove, etcetera.

23:36 He doesn't even know who determines mates. He jokes like the cauldron, the mother, like I don't know. And we learned from him and his experience that mates are not always right for each other. And so like, what are mates? Shrug. Like seemingly a magical tie that might always might not always be the most.

23:54 Correct. Yeah, I have a note on it. Right. So Reese says at one point that it's like kind of the Cauldron or the powers that be best guess at producing like the strongest offspring, right? Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk about that point, but maybe just for a little more context in case people are like forgetting. So Lucian, Elaine goes into the cauldron, comes out, literally the first thing Lucian says is you're my mate, right? Like, so Lucian has declared that they are mates. We know that Elaine does feel a bond to Lucian, right? Because in A Court of Rings in Ruin Chapter 29, Elaine and Lucian are sitting together.

24:32 They're trying to figure out they being Ferra, Nesta, Azrael, the everyone in night is kind of trying to figure out what the fuck is going on with Elaine because she has started sounding really crazy and Maja says have her mate sit with her. Her like mates being mates as a bridge between souls. She might be able to figure out what's what's going on with her.

24:51 So they sit together and at one point Elaine goes, what was that? And he says, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. But like it was a tug on the bond, right? So there is a bond. She felt it. She said it like felt like her rib or maybe Pharah said, but like she felt it. No, Elaine didn't. Yeah, she said. It felt like a tug on her rib. She felt, she said, it felt like a tug on her rib. So there's some kind of like physical, metaphysical. Like mutters that to himself.

25:15 He's like, yeah, it's real. There's a real thread, right? Lucian is like, oh, it's there's a bond, it's a real thread, he said. More to himself than us, right? So there there is something real between them, right? He certainly thinks it's a mating bond. There's also a moment in Wings of Ruin in chapter 24 where Pharaoh goes into Lucian's head and reads his thoughts and he's like, I need to touch her, I need to smell her, I need to taste her. The instincts were running river. He fisted his hand at his side.

25:42 So like he is feeling how we're told, but we haven't really gotten a first person POV on how it feels to be a female and have a mating bond. But like we're he's feeling how we're told it feels to be a female and have a meeting bond. Basically this like desire to claim, this desire to possess, like overriding all of his other thoughts.

26:04 But even he's a little Yeah, go. Ahead, we also hear like the two key phrases that we've associated with mates, right? The most beautiful female he'd ever seen and you were mine and I am yours. Like this, claiming that we saw with Pharaoh and Reese in well, he says that that's in his head. Yeah, he says that in his head. Yeah, yeah, he says he.

26:24 Doesn't say it out loud to her. I was like, I was like, I don't think they've said that to each other. Yeah, yeah, that's so funny. In his head he's like the chanting, like he has chanting. In his head he's like mine. You are mine. I am yours mate. That's funny because in my mind the words are actually I see you because like Pharaoh says that degrees, she says I see you.

26:41 There's other instances where that happens. But what's funny about that is that Cassian finishes silver flames saying to Eris, I see you. So I wrote Oh my God our Cassian and Eris mates anyway. That would be a blocked way. Anyway, I digress. That is really interesting. Yeah. So he says you are mine and I am yours in his head.

26:59 So we know that Lucian is certainly feeling the tug of the bond. We know that Elaine feels a physical tug on the bond. However, there are some clues that they might not actually be mates. Right. So first of all, Elaine is literally immediately put off by Lucian. Like she sees him and she like, she like, kind of like cowards.

27:17 So, as the quote is, as Lucian took off his jacket, kneeling before Elaine, she cringes away from the coat, from him, right? Contrast this with Farrah meeting Reese for the first time. He was the most beautiful man I'd ever seen, right? That's Farrah meeting Reese. Nesta says she had love, Cassie. And from the moment she met him, right? Those are our other two mated pairs. This is clearly, clearly not that, right? Reese kind of implies that they're not mates. So in A Court of Frost and Starlight, and I will say right off the gate, this is kind of a tricky quote. You could interpret this in a couple ways. Reese wants to send Azrael to spy on the human Queens. Azrael wants to stay and ask

27:55 Reese to send Lucian instead. And Reese says Lucian is busy. And then Reese says, shouldn't you know that Lucian is busy as my spy master and Azrael's like, I don't like to spy on Lucian. It feels like a violation of Elaine's privacy because they're mates. So he says, I don't make a point of looking at his movements. Re said why not?

28:13 A flicker of emotion. He is Elaine's mate. I waited. It would be an invasion of her privacy to track him, to know when and if Lucian sought her out, what they did together. And then Reese says, you sure about that? You sure about that buddy? So two things could be either Are you sure it's an invasion of his privacy or Are you sure they're mates?

28:31 Like that's kind of how I'm reading it. You know, it's kind of open-ended there. I think my only combat to that one. I agree. I also highlighted that and think it's interesting. In that bonus chapter, Reese seems pretty adamant that that Lucian would have a maiden claim. Over I know I hate that bonus chapter. I didn't I didn't read it.

28:52 That bonus. Chapter actually upset me. We can get into that later. Yes, again, I didn't. I should have read the bonus chapter. I didn't read it word for word. There is a bonus chapter, I think it came out with some like special edition of I don't even remember what book where Azrael and Elaine have like a moment and Reese like snaps Azrael out of it and it's like, what do you think you're doing? Like Lucian could kill you for this basically so. Yeah, and I'd have to go back and look and say if the wording is tricky, I mean, what I do remember from that bonus chapter or that Reese is like, why do you think that you get Elaine just because me and Cassian are with her sisters? Like that's my least favorite.

29:29 Thing that you think that? Yeah, I hate them. I mean a lot of people hate the boudest. Chapter. It's like the only thing that Azrael has implied that has made me upset. I know. Yeah. All right. Anyway, so that's kind of a point that they're not made. I also want to talk about the King of Highburn scene, when Nesta and Elaine are both being put into the culture. Because we have in this scene, 2 females whose mates are in the room, right?

29:55 Seemingly. Yeah, we have, we have Lucian and Elaine, and then we have Nesta and Cassian, right. So like, Elaine goes into the cauldron and Lucian is kind of like, no, stop, don't do this. You know, like he's he's certainly fighting for her. I don't wanna, I don't wanna undersell. It yeah, his his motions like mirror Cassians almost like seemingly intentionally.

30:14 Yes, but not to any extent that Cassian does in my opinion. Right. So like Cassian for contact solution is completely fine. He's completely fine and he just kind of here I have, I need to, he's being restrained by Hiburn, being restrained by Hiburn. Can't break out of that, Wheeler. He's uninjured.

30:33 So I literally wrote Lucian who is completely ungen injured, is trained in fighting and can winnow. Let's not forget he can winnow. I know, I know, we're within the palace. But like he could winnow from one side of the room to the other, right? Kind of tries to fight for a lane but like doesn't really do anything. He staggers step forward is the exact quote. So he staggers her step forward.

30:51 As Elaine was gripped between two guards and hoisted up, she began kicking, weeping, while her feet were slammed to the sides of the cauldron as if she'd knocked it down. And then Lucian says that is enough, right? Like, I get it, he's certainly fight of her. However, Cassian, whose wings have just been shredded literally like bleeding out on the ground, is like crawling towards Nesta, like fighting unconsciousness whenever he's hears Nesta's voice, he likes is his like and twitches like he is doing everything he possibly can to like save her from this fate, right? So like if I were Sarah J Mass and if I wanted to write this scene where I know I have two mated pairs, right? And I wanted to make them

31:34 equally sympathetic, right? I wanted the audience to be as into both of them. I wouldn't write Lucian this way. Like I just think Lucian doesn't come off very well in this scene. I think he comes off very unsympathetically. That could just be my opinion. The last point I kind of wanted to make is no one outside Lucian ever says they're mates, right?

31:53 So we have moments with recent Farah and we have moments with Cassie and Ernesto where a power outside of them calls them mates. So the King of Highborn knows that recent Farah are mates when they're in that Palestine that I was just mentioning. And then everyone kind of realized that everyone smells it on them, right?

32:12 Lancis in the prison is about to reveal that Cassie and Anesta are mates. Lance's can tell that they're mates, and then Cassie and throws A dagger at him to shut him off, which I thought was pretty funny. There's no moment with Elaine and Lucian, right? And maybe we haven't gotten it yet. But also, like, again, if I were Sarah J Mass and I wanted to convince people that these guys were mates, I would have that.

32:33 I would have that moment, I think. What do you think? I do think there there are reasons to believe that Elaine and Lucian are not mates. Totally do. She calls a male beautiful. It's not Lucian in this series. I agree with you. Lucian is. He is not portrayed in the classic desperate mate fashion that Cassian and Reece have been portrayed in. We also haven't gotten very close to him or Elaine as a character yet.

33:01 So like I think that door is still open. But I totally agree, he's not been put in that kind of desperate light, except when he's like clinging to Farrah effectively and like trying to convince to get him back to the night Court with her because that's where Elaine is. And I think there's a, there's a potential justification for him not being absolutely feral in those moments because he knows that Pharaoh would be feral if Elaine were actually in danger.

33:30 But there's other stuff too. Like Elaine is obviously torn. Like she's obviously not, you know, interested in him. She barely says any words to him. Pharaoh herself, right, wonders why Elaine and Ezreal are made. She's like, why Lucia? Like, who decides this? Why is this right? And everybody else, like even in the case of Cassie and Nesta, where like Nesta is basically viewed as a Viper for the entire series, like everyone kind of just understands. They're like, oh, yeah, this is happening. There's not really that understanding when it comes to Lucian and Elaine.

34:01 So Cassian is also kind of a member of their family. So I don't know. I think Jasmenda is also like a little bit of a wrench in this whole thing. Like, obviously they were not mated, but Lucian in his own mind says she's the most beautiful female he'd ever seen. He also said the same to Jasmenda once.

34:18 So I think there's like potential, you know, confusion in Lucian's past as well. But I also think there's a case for them being with being mates. Like, like you said, there is a physical mating bond. We go into Lucian's head, we hear all of these normal kind of things that we hear when people are mates. You are mine, I'm yours.

34:36 She's the most beautiful female I've ever seen. He also brings her to lucidity in a way, in kind of a similar way that Cassian does, like when he's talking with her and she's not really like speaking. She becomes lucid in specific moments, like when she's just sitting there and has been saying nothing except for like random predictions.

34:54 And he starts to talk to her and she has only a few words of lucidity, but she does. I think that's. I was going to say, I really feel like it's Azrael who does that, but we can get into it later. Azrael definitely does, but the most damning point for me for Azrael is Nesta does not alter Elaine's anatomy and I think that's a point against Elaine being needed to Azrael I.

35:15 Was going to wait to reveal this but I was going to wait for the Azrael episode. But I don't think that's a point against it at all. OK. Why don't you think it's a point against it? Because Azrael, no, he can't have children. There is a line in Frost and Starlight where Cassian and Azrael are talking and Cassian says would you ever want kids?

35:31 And Azrael says it doesn't matter what I want. And Cassian is like, I'm not going to push that further, but like, why would he say that? And I don't. So I don't think Azrael can have children. So I don't think it matters. I know everyone's talking about that but I'm like I have a counterpoint. Yeah, maybe I have one more point that I think could mean like I, I think it could. I think it could go either way.

35:50 I still think they could be mates. I still think they could maybe not end up together. Like I think that's on the table. Like, I think there's the possibility that they are. On the table. Yeah, and they do not end up together. Lucian fully believes that they are mates, right Elaine? We haven't heard speak on the topic. She's not spoken about it and we've not been in her head. We have no idea what is going on in Elaine's head. We see evidence that she prefers Azrael, that she's wary of Lucian.

36:18 My bet is it's maybe Elaine who's being manipulated in some way to believe that or or wants to believe that kind of Azrael is her true match or someone else's her true match, when it's actually Lucian. And the reason I believe that it's more likely to be Elaine is Tamlin's glamour works on Elaine. Lucian's eye seems to see through everything. And so if anybody is right in this kind of like mismatched scenario, I feel like it's more likely to be Lucian than it is to be Elaine.

36:48 So you think Elaine is being potentially manipulated by outside forces to not be interested in Lucian for some reason? For some reason, yeah. That's intriguing Can I can I do my I was going to I have my precog theory is on this and I kind of just want to do it now because it seems relevant sure all right, early precog theory Merry Christmas, everyone all right so I want to talk about and again precog. So this is like, not necessarily if you're new here, our precog theories are our safe spaces for our craziest theories. I want to talk about Calami, right? Okay, so Tamlin refused to participate in the great right when the second time when Farrah was in the night, right? And Lucian goes in his place,

37:31 right? So here's what we know about Kalama. These are exact quotes from ACOTART. Tonight, Tam will allow great and terrible magic to enter his body. Lucian says the magic will seize control of his mind, his body, his soul, and turn him into the hunter. It will fill him with his sole purpose to find the maiden from their coupling. Magic will be released and spread to the earth, while it will regenerate life for the year to come. And then another quote.

37:54 Tonight, Tam won't be the fairy, you know, he won't even know his name. The magic will consume everything in him but that one basic command and need. And what we know what happened when Lucian did the great right in Tamlin instead was Eonth came in and basically like fucked it up and she was like, no, I'm going to take advantage of Lucian in the state right. So like he never found the maiden at Kalami. What if Elaine is the maiden?

38:18 Like what if this is all because Kalami did not go the way that it was supposed to go? So there is a real like tug, a real magic between them, but it's not the mating bomb. It's more of this like ancient magic. And then and he's the hunter and she's the maiden and they haven't like had sex. So like, he's still hunting her.

38:37 I don't know how that works for like the magic. Yeah. How does? It work for the airline also. Like you think there was a maiden chosen each Callen Mai and like, yeah, there was a maiden for each Callen Mai, No. No, no, no, no. I There's a maiden every. Eileen was the maiden for Lucian's Callen Mai. Yeah, like maybe she was supposed to be the maiden. I don't know why.

38:56 I don't know why that would be the case, but I'm wondering. We know that Kalamai was fucked up right? So like could this be a different explanation for what seems to be a magical hug between them if it's not a mating bond? That would also work for Tamlin's obsession with Farrah, right? Because he never finds her. Oh my God, wouldn't it?

39:14 Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. We need to think about Kalami. But they don't have a physical tug. But they have sex. They do have sex. Yeah. So you think it all goes away after Lucian and Elaine have sex? I'm not saying that, but I'm saying if we are looking for some kind of explanation for how there could obviously be a physical tug between them, that's not a mating bond.

39:34 We have this old ancient ritual that got fucked up. Yeah. Pre cod corner, it's out there. I know it's out there. Yeah, it's interesting. All right. I think we should move on to question 2 unless you have more. No, I mean it can. I actually do have one more thing. Since we are talking about Azrael, Madra says a mate would be able to figure out what's going on with the lane.

39:59 Azrael is the one who figures out what's going on with the lane, right? So again, to me that is like neon sign. Hey, pay attention to Azrael here. Yeah. Like it's not Lucian that figures out it's not fair, it's not NASA. Azrael is the one who figures out that she is a seer. I'm OK that we're on different pages with this, it's totally fine like.

40:18 I, I mean, I want, I want to believe that it is Elaine Nazreal. I just have a hard time backing up and believing that because like three brothers with three sisters. I know. And we haven't seen an example of this mating bond, like, not being ideal in this story. Yeah. But we know that it's happened with Tamlin's parents and with Reese's parents. And so like, I'm OK rooting for Elaine and Azreal to become a thing, even if Elaine and Lucian. Our mates I don't disagree with you, I also. Kind of see a tragic end for Lucian in this story, unfortunately.

40:56 I mean, yeah, the thing that sucks is RE said she'll always feel that tug like she will always feel it, is what RE said. Yeah, it would be unfortunate. It doesn't feel like, but that could just be a one liner that she forgets that Sarah JMS forgets about. You know, it's like, OK, whatever, they're in love. Well, there could be a million of those. I know.

41:14 Yeah, I know. But like Elaine was made clearly they're not on the same page here. So like someone some side is messed up. For some something went wrong. Something went wrong somewhere and we don't know who really. We don't know if it's the Mother or the Cauldron or the powers that be. Even even like wrong mating bonds still seem like people enter them. I'm sorry I had one from that.

41:38 I forgot about our three brothers. 3 three sisters thing. Right? This is the point I was referencing all the way at the beginning. If mating bonds are actually meant to be pairing off the strongest genetic pools. And two of our Archeron sisters are with Illyrian warriors. Wouldn't it make sense that the third Archron sister would also be with an Illyrian warrior?

42:00 If we're talking about Genetta, isn't there some match up there that makes sense? I mean, definitely, but Lucian's genetics are also crazy, to be clear. Yeah. No, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. And Elaine does. Elaine is different. Elaine is different than her other two sisters, certainly. Yeah.

42:16 Yeah, I agree. Do you remember the line in Frost and Starlight where Azrael says my shadows don't like the fire? I just love that one. I think it's a great 1. So many layers. So many layers, so many layers. Do you remember when when Azrael had to fly Lucian? Yeah, I do. That was also a great moment. On the ice.

42:37 Great, great moment. Great. All right, OK, Ronnie, question 2. We're ready. I feel like we've got as much as we can. Yeah, Yep, that's fine. All right. Did Lucian know that Pharaoh was spying on the Supreme Court? Yes. Yes, yes. Is the I mean, we actually have it confirmed. Yes, He says he did not.

42:57 Yeah. So I mean, let's let's talk about maybe why Lucian knew that Pharaoh was spying on the Supreme Court and why he behaved the way that he did. Following that, I don't have a very long answer for this one. I think it's actually fairly straightforward. Lucian knew that Pharaoh was deceiving Tamlin within 60 seconds of her doing it, because she didn't panic when Moore took her sisters. So we have a direct quote.

43:21 Lucian spun toward me and that metal eye word and narrowed again. That metal eye, like not much is getting past this metal eye. Centuries of cultivated reason clicked into place. I was not panicking at my sister's being taken. I said quietly. We will get her back. But Lucian was watching me warily too warily. So he like to me.

43:40 I'm like OK. Lucian is on to her from the second. Like before they even left Highburn, Lucian was on to her and allows it all to happen, which I think is important as well. OK, like just lets it lets it progress. What? Why are you rolling your eyes? No, I'm. Not rolling my eyes. I was. I I thought you were going to say. I'm pretty sure the second part of that quote is as if he could see through the glamour I put on myself to cover my tattoo. Right.

44:04 Isn't that where she says it? Yeah. And he can. He can see it. So like he knows immediately I'm not rolling my eyes. I totally agree with. This He knows everything. He can see the glamour like. That's why I think I, I think fooling Lucian, if someone's doing it, it's really impressive, OK? Because this man can see through all mind work seemingly. But you also just prove that he can't see mating bonds right? Because even though he knows, he doesn't see the mating bond between Reese and Farrah.

44:32 I think he does know. I think he knows. He asks about the mating bond while they're there, while they're at the Supreme Court. I. Guess I guess everyone knows their mates. Everyone knows their mates. Nevermind. Well. I mean, everybody else though thinks that hybrid, just the king of hybrid, just broke.

44:45 The mates broke it. OK. Yeah. All right. But Lucian asks her about it when they're in the Spring Court. So I mean, he, he knows immediately, like he sees her tattoo, he sees the fact that she's not freaking out. They haven't even gone back to the Spring Court yet. He just lets it happen. You could totally argue that he's letting this happen because he knows that Farrah is going to be his only way back to Elaine.

45:09 And if he believes that he and Elaine are mates, he's very invested in getting back to her. He stays across from her room and she's specifically mentions the fact that she wonders whether his eye can see through the walls and see her in her room. Yeah, I mean favour specifically because I didn't doubt he'd ensure it.

45:27 I now stayed across from him, didn't doubt that the metal eye he possessed was always turned towards my own chambers, even while he slept and he's. Very Dolores Umbridge. I'm surprised you're so calm given your promises in hybrid. Like I think Lucian could see, he could potentially even see that she was communicating with Reese during this time.

45:46 Like, I think he's hyper aware of everything and he doesn't fall for any of her guilt tricks the way that Tamlin has, right? They're talking about, you know, going to get Elaine. And she says Pharaoh says you'll die the moment you set foot in his territory. Lucian's like, well, I survived when I came to find you. And Pharaoh tries to kind of like, in my opinion, she's testing him at this point.

46:06 She's like, you could see that he had me and Thrall. You let him take me back. And Lucian just does not react. And it's like, I'm not feeling guilty about this. I need to find her. Right, because to your point, it's his eye can do everything you think he can do. Then he saw that Reese did not have her in a thrall.

46:21 Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and he just, he just knows that she's there willingly and that she's still connected to Reese. He sees the tattoo. He sees that she's not freaked out that Reese has her family. Like he doesn't really need to see anything else other than the fact that she's not terrified. Like she would do anything for her sisters. Holy shit Tamlin is so dumb.

46:41 Tamlin is so fucking dumb. Pharaoh literally spent all of book one just desperately trying to get back. Trying to get back, yeah. And now she's not freaking out at all. If if Tamlin is a Damati, he's a shitty one. Like are you kidding me? I don't think Sarah played this as well as she thinks that she did, but I totally think that Lucian was completely aware the entire time. It's a lot right to like conceal this from your best friend, the person who's given you a home for, you know, your entire untitled existence.

47:15 Like from the moment he lost his title and and Jasmine to die, Tamlin has taken him in and he is like this to me is Fox Lucian like he is. He knows exactly what's happening. He knows exactly what's going on. He's aware that Pharaoh is spying within the Supreme Court and he's just stealthily keeping an eye on it, and he does not reveal it to Tamlin.

47:37 Lucian is like, this is Lucian's fox moment to me. I. Agree with you I think there. I think this is a yes and answer. He certainly knew no question. He goes along with Farah's plan. Yeah. Like, more than necessary. Right. So like, her plan is to make Tamlin think that Lucian is kind of vying for her affections, and he kind of plays right into it even though he knows she's up to something. Right.

48:01 So like, he sits knee to knee with her on the rock when Jurian finds them. So, like, he's, like, touching her. They sleep in the same tent when they're camping with the freaking Highburn incest twins. He helps favorite off her horse and even like gives her a little smirk like he knows she's playing him and like he still plays into it. So I think this is Lucian's fox moment. But like even more than that, I think Lucian is pretty done with Tablon at this point.

48:29 Not just because he wants to get to a lane, but I think he is actually so disgusted about what happened with Highburn and what Ian did to the Archeron sisters that like he's just like fucking yeah Tamlin. Like he's done with this. Like Tamlin went full buddy buddy with Ianthe who had literally abused him. Like I don't blame him at all.

48:51 Did bad things to Lucian, like, yeah, certainly. Yeah. So I mean, it's it to me. It's not just Elaine. It is seeing it is starting to see Tamlin for who he is at least appearing to be, right. And just not being not being on board with and not being for it. Yeah. Which, again, kind of makes you wonder why he didn't grab fair in the middle of the night and be like, let's get out of here. Let's go to Night Court.

49:16 Like, why? Why did he let it play out? I guess he did. He says he didn't want to kick Tamlin while Tamlin was down. So like, he still clearly still feels some loyalty to Tamlin, but I think he's starting to get, I think he's kind of done with Tamlin at this point. So he's starting to be. Yeah, and I also, I mean, I had a similar thought. Lucian could have taken a stronger stance in general than his power and just like his like the trust that Tamlin had in him.

49:45 I think Lucian's MO like he is fly. He doesn't like to be the antagonist. He likes to kind of ride alongside somebody so far right, right alongside somebody who is calling the shots and just wants to be on the right side. That's the way he operates with Vasa as well. So Lucian has been Tamlin's sidekick right up until all of this transpires.

50:08 Lucian waits with Farah until Farah makes a move, and then Lucian is kind of forced to go along with it. And then when it comes time to try and go, like, recruit, figure out what's going on with Vasa so that Vasa can help them, Lucian's like, yeah, I'll go do that. And he's going to her. And then she is the driver of everything. So, like, I don't think it's very high Lord of him to behave that way.

50:29 But that seems to be his MO. Like, that's what he's comfortable with. He's not taking like, a strong, bold stance. He is manipulating in the background and letting other people take the lead on things. Yeah, and see, I feel like this gets back to my frustration with his character is like in book 1, he.

50:46 Fell slap him. But he felt very crafty. He kind of did. And he kind of took more initiative, like he does help fare in Under the Mountain like you're talking about. And then I feel like book one, book 2 onwards, it's just like backseat, like whatever you want. I'm just going to go with it like it's fine, you know? And I'm like, why are you being, why are you being this way? I don't understand what this character arc is, but I'm sure we'll get there.

51:10 Yeah, yeah, I yeah. So I agree, yeah, he's his loyalty to Tamlin is starting to erode. He wants to get back to a lane. He definitely knew what Pharaoh was up to. How did I guess it was the Fabian? I was going to say, how did IANTHI? How the fuck do you say her name? I say ianthi. Ianthi. Okay, How did Ianthi?

51:32 Tie him to a tree? How did she do that? But I guess there was Fabian in the food and she just wasn't eating it. I don't remember. But like, she ties into a tree. That's how Feyre finds him and Lucian is pretty careful. So like, how did that happen? They're like playing a game, yeah, she says. They're playing a game. They're obviously not.

51:48 No, she's about to sexually assault him. She she doesn't have been tied to a tree, but also I Anthony seemingly doesn't really have any powers, so I don't know how that occurred either. Yeah. OK, we won't think too hard about that one. We'll come back on it. I didn't. No. I mean, not in this episode.

52:02 I just didn't reread that specific part. Yeah. OK. All right, OK, All right. So to conclude, did Lucia know that Pharaoh was mine on the Spring court? Yes, he did. Yes, thumbs up he did. All right, Abby, I love this one. What happened the day that Lucian's lover died? All right, I'm glad you love this one because I don't have that much, but I'm happy to talk about it.

52:24 All right, so the story we get is that Lucian loved a quote UN quote commoner. So she was a lesser fairy of the Autumn Court. His father, Baron, who we hate, did not think that she was an appropriate match for. Yeah, Baron's a thumbs down. Baron's a thumbs down like looks nothing like any of his sons, which is crazy.

52:43 He doesn't have red hair, Baron. Did not think that Jasmine Da, which was Lucian's girlfriend's name, was an appropriate match for him. So he butchered her in front of Lucian and his brothers forced him to watch. Lucian literally says I heard the moment that her heart stopped beating right. So this is kind of this kind of gives us some insight into why Lucian is so sympathetic to Tamlin and Miss and Fury because he says there was no magic spell, no miracle to bring her back.

53:13 There were no gathered High Lords to resurrect her. I watched and she died. And I will never forget that moment when I heard her heart stop beating, right. So him and Tamlin went through really similar things where they both watch the woman they love die, but Lucian's didn't come back, right? So he understands Tamlin's like desire to keep Pharaoh safe, to protect her above all else.

53:32 And so like, I think that kind of gives us some insight into why he is the way he is in Miss and Fury. Lucian then please the Spring Court and sorry freeze the flees the Autumn Court gets to the Spring Court border and then him and Tamlin kill two of his brothers. I wrote I think he and Tamlin killed two of his brothers but I have to find that quote. I didn't find the quote, but I'm 99% sure that's what happens. Yeah, 2/3 went, one came back, so two of them died. Lucian killed 1, Tamlin killed the other. OK, So what the quote says.

54:03 Yeah, we have some family slaughter here, and Reese tells us that this happened centuries ago. So this happened centuries ago. And Lucian has just been kind of very sad ever since. We do get that quote from when Feyra goes into his head accidentally for the first time, and she talks about how like, he's he's clever, but he's so, so, so sad. There's so much sadness in had, like he's old and clever and he's sad, which is very sad for us. We then find out from Eris in the Hewn City in Silver Flames, when Nesta and Cassie and Reese and Farah are meeting with Eris and Kier, that we don't actually know anything that happened that day.

54:39 So I say or sorry more is there too. But I think someone says to Eris like, oh, what about the day that Lucian's lover died? Like did you protect him then? Were you a good brother then? And he says, you know nothing and what happened. You know nothing. A favorite fantasy. You know nothing of what happened that day, he says. Eris says he wasn't one of the brothers who forced Lucian to watch.

55:00 He refused and his father punished him for it. We of course know that Baron has tortured Eris in the past. We find that out at the end of Silver Flames. So we can assume that Eris was tortured for refusing to participate in this since by the time he got free, he heard that his father was going to punish Lucian.

55:16 He was the one who actually got Lucian to the Supreme Court border and made sure that Tamlin got word anonymously to get to the border. Where Tamlin and Lucian then each killed a brother apiece. So this is a really interesting Eris situation here, right? Because how did Eris get word to Tamlin? Like what are his?

55:35 Like? He says he got word to Tamlin anonymously, right? So like, how does he have some kind of network of spies that could get to Tamlin? Like how did that happen? And why was Eris willing to save Lucian's life at the expense of the lives of two of his other brothers, right? He clearly doesn't feel this loyalty to all of his brothers. Why is he specific specifically OK with Lucian being alive right?

55:57 Like does he know that Lucian is only his half brother and not actually it's kind of implied right that he knows that Helian is actually Lucian's father? But like how does he know? There's always these questions around Aris and I do think we're going to do an Aris deep dive. But like how does he know everything he knows right? Like what the fuck is going on?

56:13 And being a Damati if he is a Damati does not explain how Aris knows everything he knows. So that's kind of where I didn't really have any theories on this one, but I do think it's an interesting thing to chat about. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I think what Eris did is super interesting. I also just think like the Jasminda story is interesting.

56:32 So like, like you said, she's, she was a lesser fairy and we've not really seen many high like she was not high Fay and we haven't seen that many high Fay lesser fairy romances, unless you count the Illyrians, which are the only like human like species that we've seen that, that are lesser fairy that we've seen in a relationship with, with a high Fay.

56:53 So we know that Jasminda was lesser fairy. We don't know what kind she was. I assumed that she was not Illyrian. What? She was unclear. We know that Jasminda was nothing like Elaine. She was laughter, mischief, wild, free, born in the country and had teased him and taunted him and seduced him so thoroughly that he hadn't wanted anything but her. So like that, that's the way that Jasminda is described in Lucian's mind, right.

57:19 So that's, that's how he saw Jasminda. So what what happened to Jasminda? I want to talk about a quote that you already said and this is this is crazy like this is this should be a pre guard corner theory, but like we have a question on it. So I'm not going to make it a pre guard corner theory.

57:31 Eris says right, you know nothing about what happened that day. They were going to kill Lucian. I made sure that they didn't made sure Tamlin got word anonymously to get the hell over to his own border. Does that mean that Tamlin was in his lands or that Tamlin was in the Autumn Court? Assumed it meant Tamlin was in the Supreme Court and just needed to go to the border to get Lucian, but like. Over to his own border though.

57:57 Walk me through it. Walk me through what you're thinking. I'm just thinking, OK, made sure Tamlin got word to get the hell over to his own border, his own border, implying like he's not he's he's either at a border or in lands that are not his own. Like why his own border? And if Tamlin was there, I mean, maybe two things actually, if Tamlin was there, everything is called into question, right?

58:18 Because Tamlin can turn anyone into anything. So like that's number 1/2 if Tamlin. Like why did Eris think that Tamlin would take Lucian in? Like why was Tamlin the answer just because he was the neighbor? Why was Spring Court the answer? I mean, they're neighbors. Why not Tarkin? Yeah, well, I guess Tarkin wasn't in power yet.

58:38 I think that second question is really, really interesting. I don't have an answer. Do you have an answer? Not on the Tamlin part. I think on the the if he was there part like or actually even if he wasn't there. I have this is a like popular. Well, I don't I don't think this exact theory is popular, but there is a popular hypothesis that Lucian and Gwen are tied together, right?

58:57 Have you heard? Have you seen this theory? OK so Gwen is 1/4 river nymph. The theory is like it. It also could be a pre cut corner theory to be clear. But Gwen's grandmother is river nymph. So she is 1/4 river nymph, majority high Fey. And what we understand about Gwen's lineage is her grandmother was a river nymph who seduced a high Fey male from the autumn court. She says so I'm 1/4 nymph but it's enough for this. And Gwen gestures to her blue eyes and like that's apparently the part of her that's that's River Nymph. Her mother was wanted by either of their people. She could not dwell in the rivers of the Spring Court, but was too untamed to endure the confinement of the forest house in autumn.

59:38 So she was given in her childhood to the temple at Sangrava where she was raised. She partook in the Great Right when she was of age, and Gwen and her sister were the result of that union with a male stranger. And she never found out who he was. The magic chose him. Lucian has been to Sangrava, and we know this because when Kara is in his mind, he notices the carpet in. The Oh my God, yeah.

1:00:04 And says this is from Sangrava if the patterns in the rich dies were any indication. So I actually think he might be Gwynn's grandfather. Gwynn is 28 which is very young for high Fey. Jasminda was lesser ferry if Jasminda was the river nymph who seduced. Like the same word is used right? Like the same word is used to describe Jasmine the seducing Lucian and Gwynn's grandmother who seduced a High fan male from the Autumn court. Could Lucian be Gwynn's grandfather? A lot of people think that Lucian is Gwynn's father, that he basically was the High Fate male stranger. No, that doesn't make sense.

1:00:45 That doesn't make sense. Yeah, because he knew Jasmenda, so they would have been. Right. He wouldn't have. It wouldn't have been a great right thing. Yeah, he still could. I mean, he still could have feasibly done that and it just wasn't just Menda, right? Like the mother wasn't just Menda, but this is the only other lesser fairy High Fay relationship we're being notified of, and they have the same color hair. Okay, well.

1:01:09 Of course I love this, yes. Maybe Jasmenda didn't die, maybe Jasmenda did, but they had an illegitimate child and that was what spurned everything. Or not. I need to process this. Give me a second and. We can take a second. Oh fuck, I think so do you? Think Jasmenda didn't die that day because Eris does say we knew nothing. We know nothing of what happened that day. Yeah.

1:01:34 I mean, if Tamlin was there, I think we have a shot at Jasminda not having died in in which case. Because he thinks cruel someone might have taken her place. Someone might have taken her place. Well, what if? We should have known. Yeah, that's cruel of Tamlin. Well, you wouldn't have known if there were no mating bond, right?

1:01:51 Like. He can see through glamours. Yeah. Oh, no, he didn't have his eye yet. He didn't have his eye yet. Nevermind. Actually I. Wrote that down, yeah. He did not have his eye yet. He did not lose his eye until the 50 years prior when, like Amarantha's whole court started. So he did not have those abilities. So she could have been she could have died as somebody else. Meaning Jasmine didn't die.

1:02:11 Maybe she went on to bear these children or this child, sorry, there's only one child. Or maybe she did die and she had already borne them. I. Really like this because there's definitely the way this Gwyn's story is written. It feels like we're going to get a reveal about her father, or well, her father is who it feels like, but it would be interesting if that was actually about her grandfather. Yeah.

1:02:32 And I mean, Lucian and Gwyn haven't been, like, put together in this story yet, right? But we know that Lucian has been to Sangrava, and only Gwyn's mother was in Sangrava, right? So I wonder whether like Lucian could have known about these children and known about what happened in Sangrava and presumed them dead honestly. OK.

1:02:51 And this is interesting too, because that means that Gwen is also descended from Helium and Day Court, and there is a moment where Nesta feels Gwen's power and her power rises to meet it. To meet it, yeah. So to me, Gwen and Lucian are tied either way. I think he's. I think he's a grandfather, though.

1:03:10 I think he's Gwen's grandfather. And that is contrary to the popular theory on the Internet that he is Gwen's father. I'm. So happy we didn't cut this question. I've never, I've never seen this. I've truly never seen this theory. That's wild. That's wild. I really. I've seen it once. Maybe I shouldn't say it's popular. I've seen it once.

1:03:29 I love it. OK. And we yeah, why would why would we get the like nugget that this happened centuries ago? Cuz Ree specifically says this happened centuries ago. Yeah, and and Lucian is a little under 500, so the match, yeah. He wasn't alive for the war. I don't think he couldn't. No, he wasn't. He wasn't. Yeah.

1:03:48 So in conclusion, I think just Mendez Gwyn's grandmother. OK, so so the OK, so the grandmother was a river nymph. Her grandmother was a river nymph and had a baby with an autumn, a male from the autumn. Court seduced a high female from the Autumn Court. Seduced a high female from the Autumn Court and then Gwyn's mother.

1:04:08 I know Gwyn's mother went to the temple. She was given to the temple at Sangarba because neither of them wanted her. Well, that's but OK. But we've met river nymphs, right? Or no? We've read Water Race. Water race Yeah yeah. From a river name. When is our token river name? If Jasmine is not dead, it's really cruel of Tamlin for illusion for him to just allow Lucian to think that just. Unless Tamlin doesn't know and heiress knows. But who would have transformed?

1:04:33 Who would have shifted someone to look like Jasmine DE? I don't know, I don't know. I don't have the answers but. I don't know. And maybe this whole thing doesn't work. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's. Nothing at all. No, I'm 100% convinced this is something. Yeah. I just think we don't know the exact mechanics of it.

1:04:49 Yeah, but that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. OK, great, great. This has been a while episode so far. All right, Ronnie, why doesn't Lucian save Farrah from the Not A? So context is important. Farrah goes to hunt the cereal and Lucian tells her Lucian is the first person who tells her how to trap it.

1:05:10 He then sort of commits to her that he'll be hunting on the grounds he might help her if she gets into trouble. He says it's all very loose. See Goosey, because he's like, if Tamlin catches me telling you how to ensnare the cereal, I'm dead. He tells her to trap it with a dead chicken. We later find out, because context is important, that Alice is like, I think her exact words are dead chicken, my sagging ass.

1:05:31 Like next time you come to me and it will go for a robe, right? So that's all after the fact. Farrah traps the surreal and then the not a come find her. She has a conscious thought, right? Screaming for Lucian? Like she screams specifically with the intent that Lucian will come, but Tamlin saves her.

1:05:50 This is going to be a very long answer on my part. I think I have two ideas for why Lucian did not save her. So so Lucian doesn't come right. He like later kind of shows remorse for for hesitating. My first idea is that Lucian has been playing a game maker role in the spring court. So he specifically says hey trap the cereal with a dead chicken.

1:06:12 Knew the not a would come at the smell of blood and knew that Tamlin would be hunting the not a on the grounds. So he basically LED Tamlin to save Pharah. That was the first like peacemaking moment between them. Is Tamlin saving her life from the not a? So my first thought is Lucian just did this intentionally.

1:06:33 He was playing like Pharaoh was a pawn, Tamil was a pawn. This is how you could catch a cereal. It's also, by the way, going to attract not a, and Tamlin's going to notice that you're in distress. And this is going to kick off this series of events that could lead to all of us being free. Lucian doesn't really seem to get on this page of like, hey, we should start using Farrah until they confirm that Farrah isn't in love with anybody else, basically. So I think that's a very solid option one. Option two.

1:07:00 Well, maybe. Do you want to react to option one first? Do you agree with it or disagree with it? I love the idea of it. I don't have theories about this the way that you do. I think it's more of a character driven thing. But I like your theories. Let's go, let's go. OK, Yeah. I mean, the second theory is not very complicated. Just like, Lucian cared for Andres a lot. And like, we never really talk about that Andres was someone special to him.

1:07:20 He maybe just in his heart harbored this hatred still for Farrah, for killing his friend. So he asks Tamlin, is Andres dead? And Tamlin says, I'm sorry. And then they talk about kind of his death and he's like spitting venom. Lucian is spitting venom. He's so mad that Andres is dead and that this human flimsy mortal girl killed him. And he specifically says, well, now we're stuck with that thanks to your useless mercy and you've ruined. And then we never find out what Tamlin ruined. Like, I don't have a theory on that quote, but he's mad. So maybe he just really cared for Andres. Maybe Andres was someone very special to him and he didn't care whether favorite lived or died. He cared more about Andres and

1:07:58 was kind of just doomed. Either way, those are my ideas. I had I had two similar ideas. So the first one it pretty much lines up with your honors idea, but it's less specific. Lucian has kind of a real anti human bias in book one. Like he's kind of a super elitist Dick in book 1. So like literally Pharaoh says after this all happened, she says, if you still want me dead, you might have to try a bit harder. Lucian loose to breath.

1:08:22 That's not what I intended. I wouldn't shed any tears, he amended. But what happened to you dot dot dot right. So, like, Lucian's not. Lucian doesn't really care. He also has a line. Let me see if I Oh, yeah. So, so. And then there's a line where Farrah is kind of asked like, like asking Lucian if he has any powers.

1:08:40 And he says, I don't clean everything insight or lure mortars to a watery death or grant you answers to whatever questions you might have if you trap me. And then he says we just exist. We being a high faith to rule, I'm like, that's a fucking Dick line. Lucian. Like no one else said anything like that at any other point in this book.

1:08:58 Like Tamlin, even Tamlin doesn't say shit like that. Like why? But you know, Lucian was raised in the Autumn Court who are huge Dicks. So it's kind of like, OK, maybe that's where this is coming from. But we also know that Baron, despite his faults, did side with the humans in the war 500 years ago. So it's kind of like, where is this coming from? Yeah, I think like so that's the first option. Kind of this like anti human bias. He also talked about Lucian has a big fear, like like there's this undercurrent of fear in Lucian's character in Thorns and Roses and Miss and Fury, right.

1:09:29 Like he's he's kind of scared of Tamlin Farah even says to him, you saw what was happening to me, but you were too afraid of him to truly do anything about. It's like he's scared there. He says he was scared of the not a. Like he's like, I'm sorry, I hesitated. Like it was kind of like fear. Yeah.

1:09:43 I think there's also Jasminda kind of playing into this, right? Like he's scared to get attached even in just a friendship way to a lesser being, basically right? To something that's more fragile and can die like kind of so easily. And Lucian. 'S trauma cannot be understated. Like, no, he's a broken man.

1:10:03 Right. I totally agree. Yeah, So I think that's a piece of it. And then I think Farah saving the cereal. So this exact scene is actually a huge turning point for him because he realizes that Farah also cares about lesser fairies, quote, UN quote, the way that he has in the past, right? And that's when he kind of starts to, like, humanize her.

1:10:25 He gives her his hunting. I think he actually gives her 2 hunting knives. But at this scene, he gives her a hunting knife. Yeah, I think he kind of starts to see her as more than just, like, human, human trash, basically. But yeah, I mean, I love the idea of him being a little matchmaker. Yeah, that's the most fun theory here.

1:10:43 He's clever, but I agree with you. I think he's also just like he's figuring himself out in A Court of Thorns and Roses. Yeah. In that first book, he's, he's basically just like clinging in fear to whatever family he has that's willing to take him. Yeah. There might not be a more complex explanation than that. Well, I like the match matchmaker idea because he says to Tamlin like you're doing nothing. You're just sitting here like you're doing fucking nothing. So I like the idea that he would take matters into his own hands and kind of manipulate this cereal encounter with a dead chicken.

1:11:16 By the way, when you picture the dead chicken, does it have feathers on or not? On but cut open and bleeding. See. I just picture like a like a roast. A Road 3 chicken. I mean a raw chicken, but just like a whole roast chicken cuz you got it from the kitchens. Yeah, but we also have seen Tamlin in the kitchens with an entire but.

1:11:34 He didn't have any staff, He has staff. Now I see what you're saying. Maybe a prepared chicken, but I think in order to attract the not a, it would have need to have been. I think they're, yeah. This is kind of what I'm getting at. I pictured it much more civilly than you did, but I think your way totally work. Yeah.

1:11:56 OK, so in conclusion, he could have been a sly fox, not saving her from the not a or he could have just been a coward. Well what's interesting is we do get a line in Mist and Fury for granted. This is after he has his powers back, right? But we do get a line in Mist and Fury that Lucian haunted down 5 not a on his own.

1:12:14 So it's not an ability question, he could do it. Like, yeah, yeah, Lucian is keeping some stuff quiet. He's keeping. Some stuff quiet. Yeah, So, Abby, will Lucian become a High Lord? All right, So I mean, the first answer I put here is like, yeah, probably. Otherwise this wouldn't really be an interesting plot point. Like he probably will.

1:12:34 The reason I wanted to have this question is because we are told that there are like, physical indications that a high Lord's heir will become their heir. We're told son, but we know we know it doesn't really need to be a son. That's sexist nonsense. When Farrah goes to Mist and Fury at the beginning of Book 2 and she holds a fork in half with her bare hands, Reese's like, did you know that you're exceptionally strong for a fae and you're exhibiting the signs of like what a High Lord air would be exhibiting?

1:13:06 Also, funny story, I don't know if you remember this, we see Alice also bend a fork in half at one point. So I'm like, this is inconsistent, but it's fine. It's fine. We love it that way. So we also learned from Cassian and Silver Flames that sometimes the like hereditary line, the magic that goes along with it, quote UN quote, finds a cousin instead or skips the bloodline entirely. So even though Lucian is the son of Helium, he might not become a high like the magic just might not work that way. So the question is kind of have we seen? We know that the physical indications are usually strength and speed, right?

1:13:43 So like have we seen from Lucian these physical indications that would make it seem like he will become a high Lord son? Yes, think so. But like not in any kind of like big way. So we know that Lucian is like way faster then most high Fay. Like he we're we're he literally runs Pharaoh back from the hills of Kalanmai.

1:14:03 And then this is book 1. So we don't really think of it, but like he's not winnowing, he's literally running and we don't see any other high Faye ever do that ever. Like this seems to be kind of unique to Lucian. We also see him in Aquawar catch fish in a stream with his bare hands. So like that's not really a strength thing. That's more of an agility thing.

1:14:20 There's like these little clues and indications throughout that he like kind of has this strength and speed, but there's not there's not like a moment, you know, there's not like Lucian hasn't had his like big hero moment and he maybe just hasn't had it yet. But like, yeah, even Reese doesn't realize that Lucian is Helian's son, right?

1:14:38 So like whatever those like, we know that Reese and Talon both have to put like glamours on themselves, right? To kind of like hide their. Power and their power, yeah. Reese isn't seeing that with Lucia, right? He doesn't realize, like, who he is, which is kind of crazy. But we also know that his brothers think he might have the makings of an heir, right? So yeah.

1:14:57 Because they try to kill him, yeah. Right in Acawar we found out that he was the 7th son, right? So he was never supposed to to really learn the skills to become a high Lord, kind of similar to Tamlin, but he learned how to study. He did a lot of studying and he learned how to fight. And then he says, and when I grew bored with studying and fighting, I learned when I could have the land from its people, learned about the people too.

1:15:18 And then Pharah says, I'd say that sounds more more high Lord like than the life of an idol, unwanted son. And then and then Lucian says, did you think it was mere hatred that prompted my brothers to do their best to break and kill me? So seeming like his brothers realize he's some kind of a threat, they, they think that he has the, the makings of a high Lord, but not Eris. We know that Eris tried that Eris saved his life. So Eris knows that he's not a threat to Eris's title for whatever reason.

1:15:47 So we don't know. We don't, we don't know if Eris knows. We don't know if all the brothers know. It's kind of unclear to me actually, the way that it's phrased. Maybe you have a better thought on this, whether, whether the Autumn Court High Lord knows. I mean I think he knows that Healy and is Lucian's father, but I don't know if his brothers know. Yeah, I don't think his brothers know. I think Harris does, as you mentioned. I think Baron definitely does.

1:16:09 And just, like, keeps it quiet because it's humiliating for him to share. Right. Right. His wife slept with Helium. Tough look for Baron. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, Lucian has also demonstrated, like, he has Helian's powers. Yeah. I think Lucian is is hiding powers. Like, we've talked about how Tamlin's hiding his wind power.

1:16:27 I think Lucian is hiding his. I think he knows. I think he knows that he's Helian's son. Everyone, like, there are a bunch of people on the Internet who are like, someone's got to tell Lucian that he's Helian's son. Like he's already been through so much trauma. I think de Lucian knows. Like we see him wield the spell cleaving power in Highburn when he breaks free of his board and walks towards a lane.

1:16:47 Like there is, in my opinion, a really hard case to justify that he has no idea. Why wouldn't he see Kelian out? Like why wouldn't he go to gay court? I mean, this guy's got so much trauma. He. Has daddy at home like I? Know, I know, but like Helion doesn't know. And so like could he face a father, another father that doesn't want him? Like I don't know.

1:17:11 I think that's complicated. But Lucian has Helian's powers and no uncertain terms. Like if if anyone was uncertain from that moment, I think it's fairly obviously when he breaks three of his wards. Farah tells us that her light, like her white bright light is date court. And then we see Lucian. Lucian, sorry, wield that same exact white light. So wait, I thought, and I had to go back and read this a couple times.

1:17:36 I have two thoughts on what you just said. One, I'm going to go back again to Reese not knowing Reese was in. Reese was there when Lucian broke the spells and Reese did not realize what the fuck was going on, right? So I don't know. I don't think Reese did, but I think that Tamlin did. The quote was. There was a flare of light and a scrape, and then Lucian was talking towards Elaine.

1:17:56 Freed of his restraints, Tamlin remained leashed on the ground, a gag of white iridescent magic in his mouth. Now. I think that's Lucians. But his eyes were on Lucian as Lucian took off his jacket, kneeling before Wing. I think Tamlin knew in that moment. You're nailing this episode. Your theories this episode are so fucking good.

1:18:16 I'm obsessed with Lucian, to be clear. Like, I I think that in that moment, Tamlin knew. And to me that legitimizes like maybe Reese just yeah, I don't know. I don't know why Reese didn't know. OK, So what are the implications of Tamlin knows? Does that change? Anything him. No, I don't think so.

1:18:31 I mean, yeah, he's been harboring Lucian, I think like, well, you want it like. Should I just pile on another crazy theory while we're at it? Yes I feel like I had another follow up thought. I'm not clear on the light power because I thought the light. Sometimes the light is from day court, sometimes the light is the healing power of dawn court solution clearly uses the light to break a spell.

1:18:51 But then when Feyra uses the light to break a spell he said I know that's bullshit. Like what? Cuz remember cuz like Feyra does a big white light as like a. Yeah. Trick and then it's. Like no, no. No, I'm not on Anthony in the King in Highburn when when she's like. Pretending. That Reese, Yeah. He's like, I know that the white light doesn't break spells.

1:19:12 I have a friend from Dawn Court. She doesn't do that. Like it's all really weird. I don't know. I don't know that I'm going anywhere with this, but I feel like the light is used inconsistently is what I'm trying to say here. I think the light is used inconsistently because even Amaranth's power is is described as white light, right, at a certain point.

1:19:29 So I don't know if there's like too much to focus on with white light, just as white light. But like, Farrah has described it as day. Like when she's glowing, it's day. And we know that there's flashes of white light when spells are being broken. Yeah. All right. So what's your second crazy theory?

1:19:45 So you talked about maybe we just skip precog because like my whole episode, it turns out it is precog theories. You've already talked about how the power of High Lords don't always keep to bloodlines. Like sometimes they skip bloodlines entirely. That could be a justification for Lucian not necessarily being Helian's air.

1:20:03 I think there's a chance that Lucian is Tamlin's air as well. Who else is Tamlin's air? Well, this is the question. Who the fuck is Tamlin there? I But who? And the reason that I think that it's Lucian is not just because the Lucian is the only one who's been by Tamlin's side for this entire time, even still tries to be even after he ditches him, he stands in for him at Callan Mine.

1:20:23 That makes me think that Lucian is also Tamlin's heir. So if if he doesn't become a High Lord of Day, could he become a High Lord of Spring? I don't. Know it's interesting maybe because like the magic chooses right, but like if the magic chose him that night and then that would kind of wind up with Elaine's like spring imagery and have it not be Tamlin. Yeah, I like him going today better. Like, I think he deserves to find his actual, like, loving family.

1:20:49 And I think that Helian would be a good dad ultimately, but he's also been like in this position as Tamlin's right hand, and Tamlin doesn't have anybody else. Yeah, I saw a theory that I absolutely hated and it was like, Reese and Favour are together, we're getting set up for Lucian and Elaine. What if Cassian dies and Nesta ends up stuck with I don't even Eris, Nesta ends up with Eris and then Eris becomes the High Lord of Autumn Court and now we have 3 high ladies and I was like, you shut your fucking hormone. No, but like, that's just not so. The message just doesn't write that way. That's just not going to happen.

1:21:23 Like once the mate, like once the pairs are paired, they're paired. Like, you know, fuck it, my hair is just going down. I would be so I I want Eris to come out on top. I would be so mad if we broke up and the process. Won't happen. It's simply not possible. Yeah, their story is well-rounded at this point. Like, yeah, Elaine can be up for grabs. Well, This is why it's so fun.

1:21:50 I know it's kind of like weird that we're starting with Tamlin and Lucien, but Lucien. But like, it's fun because their stories aren't done, you know, like recent favorites. Like there's not really that much to talk about theory. Why? I mean, there is, but like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, we still have more to talk about with them. On that note, do we have anything else Acatar specific? No.

1:22:11 So I think we are moving into the mass first section of this episode. If you have not read all of Throne of Glass and all of Crescent City, if you've not read all of actor, you shouldn't be here. I don't know what you're doing here if you not read all three series in their entirety, stop, go no further.

1:22:30 We love you. We'll even say love you. Bye. Just like so that you feel like you completed the episode. But if you've not read all of those, this is the part where we're going to start talking about it. So spoiler warning, Throne of Glass spoilers, Crescent City spoilers, and ACOTAR spoilers from here on out. And you guys even got some great precod theories this week, so you're welcome.

1:22:48 Yeah, you're welcome. All right, Ronnie, yes. Given everything that you learned in Throne of Glass, our illusion and Elaine truly mates. So we talked enough about this earlier to give folks like something, right? Like if you have read Throne of Glass, you were probably thinking the same thing we were thinking when we talked about the first question, our illusion.

1:23:07 And Elaine truly mates. We have a situation in Throne of Glass where there has been a faked mating bond, a pretty successfully faked mating bond. Maeve faked a mating bond between Rowan and Lyria in Throne of Glass. We were not there for the first person description or even third person description of this mating bond.

1:23:30 So we didn't see all of the intricacies that work. That didn't work. But it was believable enough, right? That Rowan kind of went mad after after Lyria died. And for a refresher, because I know a lot of people probably reread a guitar for this season, maybe not Throne of Glass, Maeve says to Alan.

1:23:47 It was so easy to tug on the right sidekick thread that day. Rowan saw Lyria at the market to shove him down that other path to trick those instincts, A slight altering of fate. And so that that line I think is important because that's not like somebody creating, you know, something fake, like some fake bond. Like you're just, you're actually just playing puppet like easy to tug on the right psychic thread. So if if this mating bond, and again, we didn't see it first hand, if this mating bond did act like a real mating bond, then in that case, Lucian, assuming that he can't, you know, breakthrough all of that with his eye necessarily could be feeling the exact same things. Those tugs could feel real and

1:24:29 it could all be fake. It could all 100% be fake. And then Rowan like kind of later thinks about it and says to himself, she had gone into my head, tricked me into thinking that Lira was my mate and had fooled the very instincts that made him a female. And so why is this important for this novel, right? We we have a strong hypothesis that the King of Highburn and Amarantha are Valg and Maeve was Valg inhabiting a fae body. And so this all kind of sets this up the same way. I guess my one part where I get stuck here, admittedly, is that this is all persisting when the King of Hybrid and Amarantha are both dead.

1:25:04 So if this is happening and it's faked, who's doing it? Because I don't know whether you have thoughts on it. I don't have thoughts on like, I don't know who could be doing it. I do have thoughts on it, OK. But I don't know that this is a Valg character. So I it's funny, I have literally the exact quote you wrote. I can't say who I I think is doing it without saying why I think they might be doing it kind of, but I think. Coche.

1:25:25 Is that what I say? Yeah. Coche. I say. Coche. Yeah, I don't know. Is a possibility here. I don't know who else it would be. Or it would be another character that we haven't met yet, which is always possible, right? Like she introduces characters way later in books. If it's a faked meeting bond, I think it has to be Cocheted doing it. I'm not saying that Cochet is Valk. I want to be clear.

1:25:45 I don't know that, but he's definitely something very powerful. Could be Cochet it. Could be Cochet, it could be somebody else who has Valg abilities, I suppose. We've talked about people being Valg descended in this series. I think that could be on the table as well. And it could be, I mean, let's be honest, like we, we know that the like the borders of this realm are not closed, right? Like we know that people are in and out of this from Crescent City, right?

1:26:13 Like the door has been opened and Bryce shows up. So is there something else? Are there other Daglin Valg coming in and out that have the ability to fake this mating bond? OK, I have some thoughts on why it may be faked. So it's either being faked to keep Lucian away from his true mate or to keep Elaine away from her true mate, right? I don't really see any reason to keep Lucian away from his true mate.

1:26:37 But you've talked about a lot of interesting things today. I think maybe I would rethink that, but I'm not really sure that that I'm convinced that this is really about Lucian. I think it might be because we know I love him. I think it might be about Azrael and I think it might be about keeping Azrael away from his true mate because we're not necessarily going to get into this in this episode.

1:26:56 It seems very like that Elaine and Azrael are both Starborn, right? And they're both able to wield truth Teller. They're like we get a lot in Crescent City about Azrael basic as Azrael is confirmed as Starborn and there's a lot of imagery around the Archron sisters. We're going to do an Archron family deep type. We'll talk about it.

1:27:14 But we know at the very least that Nasta and Elaine can both wield truth Teller, right? Yeah, if this conjoinment of two Starborn people is like too powerful for some power that be is that why this bond is being manipulated? Except that we might also have it with Reese and Farah, right. So like that's why it maybe wouldn't work.

1:27:36 But but Azrael seems to be more important in this star born story than Reese so far, for whatever reason. I don't know where she's going with it, but it seems like that's, that's kind of my thinking that if this might be a star born thing, it might be in a Steri thing manipulated rather than a Valk thing. We know from Crescent City that the starborn power combines and amplifies depending on what source you have. So like if you combine 2 starborn powers, like maybe it's just, it's just too much.

1:28:04 I don't know, but that's kind of my thinking. Yeah. And I mean, I really or go ahead. I think I am a fan in general, and I didn't really connect it to the mating bond, but I like that you did of the concept that Azrael is being purposefully stifled. Like he's been stifled his entire existence, right? Like he's been locked up as a child, like not really able to come into his full abilities.

1:28:24 He's different from everybody else, like these shadows are not of this world that he has. And so I like the idea of like kind of keeping him off the path of his destiny and in doing that, like getting him away from Elaine. I guess my question, I do think that Reese is * born. Like, he's got star imagery everywhere.

1:28:46 And so how would he not detect this? This fucking with the mating bond, Yeah, well, I don't know that he would detect it, but I don't know. We certainly don't have enough. This is kind of a precod corner theory, but and and Reese even has the line. Like Azrael is more like me than anyone realizes, right?

1:29:03 Like I Reese is certainly starboard. There's really no question though, like Celine looks just like him. So the question is, is Farah also starborn or is Elaine? We know Elaine is like, different than her other two sisters, right? So is she somehow starborn and they're not? I don't really think so. I think they're all starborn.

1:29:20 I don't know. Just a thought really that if this is really a mating bond that's being fucked with, it's actually about Azrael. It's not about Lucian. Yeah, I want it to be true. I'm curious how it all works out. Right? Like Elaine is Elaine is Elaine. That's what Reese says. I know, but like she. What does that mean?

1:29:39 Yeah, I don't know. Like sweet, perfect, hard to be mad at, loves her flowers. This is not giving, you know, hell vibes or like Starborn vibes. I guess it is giving Starborn vibes, but Azrael's very well, I guess. What is it? Who's some say as? Hellius the actual Adis. Yeah, Adis. Yeah, Prince Adis.

1:30:01 So I guess there is like some parallels there. Yeah. We're going to talk way more about this when we talk about Azrael. We're going. To talk so much more about this, we're going to talk so much more about this. This is not our Elaine episode. It's not our Azrael episode either. So we'll table it for now.

1:30:14 Which is why I kind of don't have answers to your questions, because I didn't think it through that thoroughly. I was just thinking, if we're faking this mating bond, why are we faking this mating bond? All right, Abby, where do Lucian's abilities come from? All right. I don't have that. I I don't have that interesting an answer to this question. Obviously we've already talked about the spell cleaving, which comes from Helion.

1:30:34 I think when we're talking about firepower, though, which Lucian does have through his mother, we kind of have to think about Aylan. And I know you mentioned last book that Aylan gave her powers up, so that maybe explains if Tamlin is an Aylen descendant. He doesn't have fire, but Lydia has fire. Lydia has fire, but.

1:30:51 Lydia. Brannon. Lydia does only mention Brandon, but Aylan is like Brandon's descendant, so I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it could have still been passed through Alan, but like at that point if, if Lydia knows of Brandon, the timelines in this whole thing are so I don't know. Yeah, but Lydia mentions Brandon, Yeah. Right.

1:31:10 So there's no like physical indication that Lucian is related to Aylan, right? He doesn't have any of her physical characteristics that we usually talk about. Same with his mother. Like he doesn't have ash driver blue eyes. He doesn't have blonde hair or anything like that. But so Aylan gets her power from Mala Firebringer, right? Mala Firebringer is a goddess who comes to the throne of Glass Worlds and falls in love with Aylan's grandfather, I think. And basically the line, the fire line goes through her. There's a lot of talk in this book about long forgotten gods, right?

1:31:44 So I'm like, OK, did the gods also come to this world at one point and then leave? So it's not necessarily alien, but maybe it's Mala Firebringer also being in this world and like kind of spawning the Autumn Court. And that would be interesting too. I haven't done this, but if we could tie each of these powers to a God in Throne of Glass and see if all the powers came down.

1:32:03 That way, yeah. I wouldn't be an interesting. Up on my gods, but yeah. Throne of Glass is just such a beast. So I think it's an interesting idea that maybe Mollifier Bringer was also here doing the same shit that she did with Throne of Glass World. Which would mean kind of to your point, Lucian is way more powerful than we even led to believe thus far, right?

1:32:22 Lucian has has way bigger of a role to play here. Eris might also have way bigger role. Well, Eris definitely does, but like the fire line in general would be very interesting. There's also a moment, this is just kind of an aside. When Farrah and Lucian are trapping his brothers in The Cave in the Autumn Court.

1:32:39 There's a moment, and this is really weird and I don't necessarily think this, but there's a moment where she seems to charge him up like they're carnom, which is how I pronounce that word. I don't know how you pronounce it. I don't have a pronunciation for it. Honestly, I've never said it out loud. Yeah, but just to remind everyone, Karanam is when in Throne of Glass 2 ancient fae warriors, like basically they can charge each other up, like you cut yourself and you hold hands and one can give his power or her power to the other fae warrior.

1:33:08 So the moment is run. I gasped out, but Lucian was already at my side, a steadying hand under my arm as I'd burn that flame hotter and hotter. It wouldn't keep them contained for long, and I could indeed feel someone's power rising to challenge mine. But there, there was another force to wield, so Lucian is that force.

1:33:24 Lucian understood the same moment I did. Sweat simmered on Lucian's brow as a pulse of flamelike power slammed into the stones just above us. I threw any trickle of magic into Lucian's next blow his neck. So Farah is literally charging Lucian up the way that Rowan charges Aylan up when they're fighting the God Print Princess. I don't know the Valk, I don't know if they're carrying them the way that it's met in thrown of glass, but I thought this was an interesting idea that we've never seen happen again. The idea that Faber can kind of charge people up. So it might have just been a throwaway life might be nothing but.

1:33:58 And it's interesting because they're they're wielding the same power in that moment too, right? Like she's using flames and he kind of is using flames. He's using flame licked power. Yeah, but his flames seem to be more valuable in this moment, for whatever reason, right? And she got her flames from Baron, and he got his flames from his. Mother.

1:34:17 His mother. Yeah, right. So maybe his mother mother's line is more true and we're told. I definitely think that his mother's line is right his. Father sought out his mother specifically because she was so powerful, right? Yeah, yeah. Breaks my heart for the lady of the Autumn Court. Like, she's clearly beaten and has no name. And I mean, she has a name, presumably like somewhere in that universe, but like.

1:34:39 She's the lady of the Autumn Court. She's like Taylor knows her name. Yeah, it's sad. I hope she gets her predemption or not redemption. I just hope she's OK. Yeah, I think she's Mala descended. Yeah. I think so too. Yeah, that's like my, honestly, my only real answer for this question is like, I think fire is his mother's.

1:34:59 His mother is. Mala descended her whole essence when she's helping Farah in exchange for Farah giving up her name to save her son. She smells of roasting chestnuts and crackling fires. Like, that's her scent. She is fire. I wish we saw more of her honestly. I just had a like a wisp of the thought when you said Farah giving up her name, like maybe it's gone. Is it nameless as my price cuz I. Can't do that right now with Nameless. It's something with Nameless.

1:35:26 Well, I mean the characters. Who don't have names in these series? My alarm bells go off every time. The kid, the lady, hardly anyone has a last name. Hardly anyone has a last name. We need to talk more about that. What? All right. That's all I had. Do you have some? I mean, he has. Did we talk about daylight? I said.

1:35:46 The spell cleaving, which is from healing, Yeah. I didn't think that was that interesting, but we can. I hope you did. I mean, I just think it's like, I feel like this light, like you said, has to be tied to being Starborn, like into this Starborn light. I know, yeah. It's probably too much to get into right now, so maybe I'll just plug it here.

1:36:03 Like we need to talk more about Day's Light and what is Starborn. Because, remember, Crescent City was written five years after A Court of Thorns and Roses. And so we don't have clear timelines and we don't really know which direction these worlds were bred into. But. It was written before Silver Flames. Christian said he was written before Silver Flames. Yeah, Helion has a really strong reaction to the mask, remember? Yeah, right.

1:36:34 He's like, it's so it's so evil. There's so much evil in this. And like, why? Why he has a stronger reaction than Reese or Nesta seem to. I don't know, Much to discuss. Much to discuss. Okay, what else do we have to talk about because. I did my free cog. Do you have free cog? Like I'll share what inspired the start of a precog and I think like, honestly, my whole episode was so whack that like we can just leave it there.

1:37:02 So you talked about in our last episode in the Tamlin episode that Tamlin might have been the mercenary, right? And that that could explain how Tamlin kind of knew that she had killed Andres and could kind of confirm that like Pharaoh was the one and go find her. You also said that that's how Tamlin knew that she had skinned him.

1:37:21 Farrah does share that she had skinned him, that she sold his hives at the market to Tamlin directly. So like that, I think, you know, it's it's important. But like Tamlin probably knew just by inferring that, you know, she sold his hives. So she skinned him. We hear the entire exchange between Tamlin and Lucian that Andres is dead, right? So we hear point to point, basically, like, is Andres dead? Yes, I'm sorry, all the way through. Like this conversation is over, Lucian says. Yet you killed him anyway, though he made no move to attack you and then you skinned him.

1:37:53 Nowhere do we hear Lucian notified that Phaeris skinned Andres. And how does he know he made no move to attack her? Too right? I don't know, I think Lucian could be a game maker in this story. Like if what we talked about with the not a played out. Like what other role did he play? I know I said that Tamlin like could be the strategist behind Pharaoh's whole life basically, but this just smells off to me. Like we never have had a Lucian POV aside from when we were in his head.

1:38:24 When Pharaoh was in his head and he was kind of chanting that Elaine was his mate. We have that moment where suddenly a white iridescent magic is gagging Tamlin. Like I think maybe my precote corner theory is just like Lucian is hiding a lot. We do not know. Lucian, we should not. And he could have been the mercenary, he could have been shifted by Tamlin, He could have been just like a round spying, like, we don't know, right?

1:38:46 But he's there when they get back. So if he was with them, I don't think Tamlin knew. It's interesting because Pharaoh describes Lucian as clever, right? When she goes into her head, she says sad and clever and we never really see it. We never really see Lucian being that clever as far as we know.

1:39:04 As far as far? Right. So like, we could be being set up for a big fucking review. It'd be great. Yeah, it'd be great. It'd be great. That's all I'll say. I'll leave it there because we have been talking for a long time. I know I did not think this was going to be a 2 hour episode. Of it doesn't matter to that hopefully by the time you guys get it'll be like hour 40 something but we. Try and.

1:39:24 Usually take like when these get to over 2 hours it's usually because one of us has to like look at something or like we'll cut this. None of that happened. Wow, so. This was just and I'm not tired. Usually at the end of a 2 hour one I'm like Oh my God, we have to do the gun. No, I'm. We'll see how the next one goes, but ready to go?

1:39:42 And what are you reading, Abby? You know what's so sad? Wrong. I'm just reading Crescent City. That's just what I'm reading. I just like, that's good. It's not good. I literally have read this book this year, but I'm like, I just need to reread it now that we're doing this and like, see what I miss?

1:39:58 So I'm just slowly rereading it again and kind of enjoying it for the story. I'm on book one. I'm almost done with book 1. Yeah, I wish I had a more fun answer that I was reading something that wasn't Sarah doing that, but I don't. You know what's even more sad? I'm reading A Court of Silver Flames.

1:40:13 So okay, it's okay. I mean, it's it's probably my favorite reread, to be frank. I'm at the part where, where am I? She just lit up in flames, which is such a great part. So a good scene. And I've kind of forgot that Reese came and showed up and helped her. And that was the first sort of tender moment we had between the two of them.

1:40:35 Yeah. When? Reese realizes how broken she is. Yeah. Yeah, it like it kind of he still makes me mad after that point. Like, I understand that I'm seeing it from Nesta's point of view, and that's why I'm mad. But I'm also like, Reese, you saw, you know what's going on here. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I'm reading. All right.

1:40:56 Well well, if it makes you feel better, Bryce's stupid fucking plan to free Hunt from the Esteri by buying him herself also makes me angry because that was so fucking dumb. What the fuck was she thinking? This book is stupid. Like, that doesn't give me warm fuzzies, right? Like, oh, you're going to buy them so you can like, not for me. It's just so dumb because she literally says Fury said I couldn't do anything stupid, not I couldn't do anything smart and then she goes and does the dumbest fucking thing she could. I literally was reading the scene. I was like, this is a setup, this is a joke. There has to be another plan in place. There's not.

1:41:29 She's just, yeah, yeah, this season is not about Crescent City, but when we get there, I've got thoughts on brains to say. Things to say about Bryce, all right. OK, we are on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube as Dragons in the details pod. We also have a link tree on all of those that links to our discord server that links to our book recommendations.

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1:42:13 It's probably a good Ave. to send us more long winded theories and although of course, like we get DMS and love to hear from you guys and let us know what you think Let us know your reactions to our theories. We do social media shout outs at the beginning of every episode, and if you were with us for the Empyrean, you know that we very much respond to the things that you say, so we want to hear them if you're new here.

1:42:33 And just a little tidbit for you, anything else you'd add at me? Nope. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.