ACOTAR: Tamlin Deep Dive - Hidden Powers, Family Secrets, and a Tragic Connection to Hybern?

0:18 So this place near my office makes really really good Italian sandwiches and they deliver to apartment so I get them on the weekends sometimes. And the sandwich that I like has some spice. But like for whatever reason today was like the spiciest it's ever been. I literally just bit it and the thing that kills me about eating spicy things is I think you know this, but I don't react to milk.

0:42 I was going to say, you can't have milk, no. I just like to stick with it and suffer it's highly. Unfortunate. That's terrible. I'm sorry. So I'm I'm sitting and suffering. Can't have macadamia nut milk. It's not going to help. I don't think. I think it's only dairy that helps, right? I honestly I'm not even sure that dairy helps.

1:01 Like from a from a food size background. I think it might be a myth, but. You know, now I'm saying it helps out loud. Yeah. I've never done a lick of research on this topic. Like, I don't actually know how to solve for spiciness. I know that wasabi spice doesn't really need to solve or like, mustard and spice doesn't need that much of A solve because it's, like, there and gone. But that pepper spice, man, it stays. OK.

1:24 So like the thing about dairy from my limited days as a chef is that it actually enhances flavor. Like, dairy is a very good extraction agent if you want to like steep in dairy or just steep anything in cream. The cream will extract that flavor very well because it has so much fat in it. I don't know how that could possibly make things less spicy. Maybe this has nothing to do with each other, but in my mind that doesn't quite add up.

1:49 I don't know. If you're a food scientist, let us know. Yeah, let us know how to combat spice. But with science. Not just yeah, with science supposed to fix it. I don't want to hear what your grandma used to do for you, no offense, I'm sure she was a lovely lady. But this is an evidence based podcast as we've previously.

2:05 Yeah, except I didn't bring evidence this time. I only brought symptoms. Unfortunately, I know, I know, we've talked about this and maybe this is the second time in two episodes we've talked about it, but this is a nice segue. I've been seeing a lot of clips online with quotes from certain books that I've recently read and finished and they're like hey this person said this so that must mean XYZ.

2:24 And I'm like that quote does not exist. That quote is not in that book. Has I never checked this? Like what's going on here? Buckstagram book talk like we're just making shit up at this. Point literally and I it's actually kind of scary because it gives you like a microcosm for how misinformation happens, but.

2:40 Like there are multiple. Quotes that I am sure somebody on TikTok just made like a slideshow of like these quotes that aren't real and it just like went viral and now everybody thinks those quotes are real. Like they're not they never happen There's a. Very specific quote in Crescent City. I'm not going to say what it is, but if you guys, you guys are on book Talk or Bookstagram, I think you know what the quote is and it never happens. It never happens.

3:04 It never happens. It is not in the book, it does not happen, and I just want to scream from the rooftops. Give me the page number. Give me the page number. And I was like, should I report these posts for misinformation? It is misinformation. No, but you do see how it happens, how it happens. So I've seen at least 10 reels in the past day on this exact topic, probably because I've been researching this topic too. And I'm like this simply does not occur. Simply doesn't happen.

3:30 Nope, it does not. Anyway, check your sources. That is the key to this podcast because not everyone always brings their sheets that way. We do anyway. Hi, I'm Abby, I'm Ronnie and this is Dragons in the details, a fact based romance, a deep dive podcast. If you're new here, welcome. We are kicking offseason 2.

3:52 Our deal is we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number number of episodes. If you were with us last season where we covered the Imperium, you know that we truly mean undetermined. We do not know how many episodes we're going to do. We usually start with an idea in mind and then things spiral and snowball a lot of times because you, our listener community, gets back to us and tells us what you want us to talk about, which is really awesome. We really love that.

4:15 So keep up the good work. We are launching a new season, as I just mentioned. So this is our second episode of our second season, and we are covering A Court of Thrones and Roses by Sarah J Maas. The entire series, to be clear, not just the first book. So we are covering Akatar. We're super excited about it. We recorded a little reactions episode that we ran last week. This is our first deep dive and so we'll get into that kind of a bit about what this means.

4:40 But a quick disclaimer, these episodes contain spoilers for the entire A Court of Thrones and Rows series. So we do not do the chapter by chapter read along. If you are here, you should have finished everything up through 1/4 of Silver Flames. If you have not finished everything up through 1/4 of Silver Flames, this is your spoiler warning. You will be spoiled.

4:57 Don't be upset when you're spoiled. These books have been out for a while at this point, so hopefully you've read all of them. Also, one thing we forgot to do in the last episode, this podcast is still. Racist podcast is rated R Yeah, I was just about to say that. We didn't say that last episode.

5:09 We definitely cursed this podcast is rated R because of both the contents of these books and who we are as people. We like to curse. We got enthusiastic about things. Obviously there's sex in these books. Sometimes we talk about sex, sometimes we don't. But yes, this podcast is certainly rated R in terms of the mass verse, but we're going to to is a portion of this episode.

5:27 The largest portion of this episode will be ACOTAR only. So if you haven't read the further mass verse, it's totally fine. You can listen to our only our ACOTAR only portion of this episode. And obviously this season the focus is on ACOTAR. So that will be the majority, the meat and potatoes of the episode. However, at the end of the episode, we will have a larger mass first section.

5:45 So if you've only read ACOTAR, you haven't read Crescent City or Throne of Glass. I would recommend stopping at that point. Don't listen any further. You will get spoiled and it won't really make sense mostly. So that's your disclaimer there. We will also put a spoiler warning in that part as well. So you know, don't listen anymore. This is no longer no longer good. This episode, our first deep dive episode, we are starting with everyone's favorite character. I'm totally kidding, Tamlin.

6:09 And you guys might be wondering why are we starting with Tamlin? Because he kind of not super relevant by the end of Silver Flames. So we are starting with Tamlin because Tamlin is kind of our introduction into this fake world. He's the first Fay that we meet. Obviously, he's very pivotal in the stories overall progression and arc. So we thought it would be very fitting for our first deep dive episode to also start with talent. Other than that, as you heard in our ranch at the beginning of this episode, we come with receipts so we have quotes to back our stuff up.

6:40 We can provide page numbers, chapter numbers. We very heavily rely on quotes. We very heavily rely on things that we've actually verified. We are fact based, evidence based podcast here and you can follow along if you're skeptical too. If you don't believe what we said, we will give you the quote.

6:55 We often read them out loud. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Ronnie, you want to do announcements? Yeah, sure. For those who listen to our Empyrean series, you know we did basically deep dives by character. We will still be doing deep dives this season, but given how complex this plot and world is and how much goes on, we might structure things slightly differently. So instead of maybe doing a full character deep dive, we might focus on a specific aspect or event. So instead of, you know, a wreath deep dive, for example, we might do Reese family tree.

7:29 Like that's just an example. We haven't necessarily set our entire episode structure yet, but that's where we're leaning because we don't want to necessarily confine ourselves to say a three-part character deep dive, which very well could happen with some of these characters. So this a little let's go deeper on a topic while still bringing in all of the details from all of the books.

7:50 Anything else? Great. No. Cool, should we dive in deep? Dive. All right, we have a fun question. Sorry, let's not deep dive yet. Ronnie, how did you feel about Chandler when you first read ACT? Okay, is this question first read book one or first read the series? It's book 1. Book 1. I mean, I kind of remember thinking, oh, Tamlin is the fae version of the beast in Beauty and the beast, and I wanted to like Tamlin more than I honestly actually did.

8:17 Like, I definitely liked him, but I was like, he's kind of like he's treating Pharaoh like she's a little bitch and not like somebody who kept her entire family alive for all of their preteen years. But I felt like he was a character that we were supposed to supposed to hate and then come to love is how I I felt about Tamlin the first time I I read that book. What about you?

8:38 Well, you know that I knew about Reese when I read Akatar book one for the first time. We never published that recording for our listeners. We have something in the vault that we just never put into the universe. But Abby told me that she knew about Reese before this whole thing started. And I. So mad. Yeah.

8:59 So it was always kind of spoiled for me. I knew that Tamlin wasn't the guy she ended up with. I thought he was kind of a dud. I and I told you in this unreleased episode, my favorite thing that Tamlin does is when he bites Pharaoh's neck on collab. Of course, that is my favorite thing that he does.

9:16 Like, finally, you're fucking doing something you're interesting around. You're interesting. So when I first read it, I was like, he's fine. Like I understand that he is physically attractive, like there's nothing wrong with him. And then the second time I read it I was like, well, there's so many things wrong with this man.

9:34 He's actually fucking terrible. Like I literally wrote 16 times just in the beginning of Avatar. Red flag. His claws are always coming out. There's always this undercurrent of rage that he cannot control right. He literally says at one point to Pharaoh. If you spot one, even if it looks harmless but makes you feel uncomfortable, pretend you don't see it don't talk to it if it hurts you. I the results wouldn't be pleasant for it or for me. You remember what happened to the not a. So what he's saying here, this is about like other fake creatures.

10:07 What he's saying here is if Pharaoh sees something that scares her, he will have to kill it and he won't enjoy killing it. And it's like his rage is so out of his control. Like his anger is so out of his control that he would literally have to kill something that threatens Pharaoh. And I'm like, unless there was some kind of magical explanation for that, which we have not gotten yet, I just think that's completely unacceptable behavior. Like, I think that is like abusive. I think that is an anger management problem. Like you can't control your emotions. Like and let's not forget he not once but twice explodes at Farrah and literally causes furniture to be flung in her direction.

10:43 Right. Like I just, I just have no fucking time for this guy. I mean, the fact that Wreath has not killed him is a testament to Reese's self-control. Yeah. So that was fun answer to that question. All right, Should we deep dive? Let's deep dive. All right, Ronnie, what are Tamlin's powers? What can and can't he do?

11:10 So Tamlin has several interesting powers here. I'll start with he has what I'm calling I'm coining classic High Lord magic, which just seems like it's, you know, controlling physical things, glamouring, floating things over. All of the High Lords seem to have this magic. Can anyone else Glamour? What other High Lord do we see glamour? Well, definitely Reese.

11:33 We know Dracon, but Dracon does. Who does Drake on glamour? Kredia. OK, well I also think that Drake on's a de Madi, but we can get into that later. It's it's uncommon, but I don't think it's de Madi specifically. We'll get into it. It is. He also has a shifting power and the shifting power I think we've seen 5% of personally, at least seen with our own eyes.

11:57 So he, he himself shifts into his beast form most easily. And we, we think that these high Lords have this beast form. We know Helion has one, we know Reese has one, and we know that Tamlin has one. But we also know that he shifted his men into wolves. And specifically, Lucian has said that he can shift us into other shapes if need be.

12:18 So we think he can shift himself and other people into basically anything. In fact, I'm 99% certain certain he can because Pharaoh's shifting power came from him. So if she can shift herself into anything, so can he. Like she shifts herself into I am P and gives herself wings on the rag. So yeah.

12:36 So he can shift into anything, which we have not seen, but that's probably because we wouldn't, right? So we'll talk more about that. He has a really strong ability to implement lasting glamour. And I think there's there's an open question that I'm sure you're you're going get into about whether glamouring is just mind work is being Damati.

12:52 But the the specific glamours that we've seen from him that we know are attributed to him are related to when Farrah is taken by him. He glamours her family's memories is the way that he describes it. So they have no memory of a beast bursting into their cottage and they think a long lost, very wealthy aunt called you away to aid her on her deathbed.

13:13 They know you're alive, you're fed, you're cared for. And they also know there's rumors of a threat. So he altered their memories. And Ferris has this, in no uncertain words, she's like, you altered their memories and gets mad about it. And he specifically says, no, I glamoured their memories, like putting a veil over them.

13:29 I was afraid your father might come after you. So he's able to glamour. And we've seen glamouring done in much more powerful ways, like hiding entire cities, entire armies. It's pretty impactful power. I do want to add a couple things about glamouring and the shape shifting though, right? So he can shift into a beast.

13:48 He could shift other people. You you talked about Pharaoh shifting into. Yeah, Ianthe. Is that how you say it? I think her name is pronounced Ianthe. Ianthe, OK, that presumably means that Tamlin can also shift into other people, correct? Right. We haven't seen this, as you said, or we wouldn't know if we had seen this.

14:06 But the door is open for Tamlin to shift into other people. The door is also open for Tamlin to shift other people into other people. Into other people? Yep, right. Might be important later when we're talking about about a certain murdered mother and sister, we're not sure. But that door is open where presumably if Tamlin can shift his men into wolves, he could also shift them into looking like other people.

14:29 Let's just keep that door open. I want to talk about the glamouring. Not yet with the Damati thing, but spoiler alert, I am going to make an argument that Tamlin's a Damati. He not only glamours Elaine and Papa Archeron's memories, he glamours Farah in real time. Right. So first of all, she does not see the Spring Corps. She, she, she sees almost no one, right. So she sees Alice and she sees her as a normal human woman instead of the kind of tree like creature that she is. He glamours Farrah.

14:57 She sees the adder. How do you say it? Adder, Adder. Adder. She sees the adder, she paints the adder and doesn't realize what she's seen because she she'd like, it's like he's literally going into her brain and like cutting the synapse there, right? So like her eyes see it and her brain clearly like registers it, but like she cannot form that memory, right? Like that's insane.

15:20 And that very much tracks with what Reese does later with the armies, right, where people just don't see the armies. So I think it's more powerful than just, oh, he went into nothing, went into Elaine and their father's mind and just tweets a little memory. It's like he is actively doing this in real time with diminished power, right?

15:38 Because we know his power is nowhere near what it is, and he's completely changing Pharaoh's point of view every day at all times. So that's pretty wild and and he like maintains this for not just Pharaoh, for for not Nesta because it doesn't work on Nesta. Doesn't work on Nesta. Yep. But for Elaine and and Ferris father, who doesn't have a name, which is also interesting, it's it's must be a constant drain on his power. And that just like is a bigger question for me. Like how the heck does all of this work? Because Reese seems to like have used like the last bits of his power to throw that glamour over. So when that glamour is there, is it just there or is it like an active strain that you are

16:17 using power for at all times? And if so, the wells of Tamlin power must be pretty freaking deep. Tamlin Bamarantha took it and he still had the ability to do that. I agree. I agree. All right. Yes, so then he also so so that aside like glamouring, high Lord, power shifting, those are like the big ones that we typically see. He also has wind that he mysteriously never reveals. And we learn about it because Farrah is escaping from Highburn with Elaine and this human girl named Briar and Azrael is helping her even though his back is literally bleeding out, which is also a crazy scene.

16:55 And Tamlin assists her basically because she is not good at flying. She's just figuring out how to use her wings and he sends a wing and to kind of push her out beyond the wards so that they can winnow out of there and and escape. And he himself jumps beyond the wards and escapes as well. I think it's super interesting that he's never revealed this wind power before and we see in a few places. We'll talk about it later and I'll leave it at that. What other powers did you want to talk about with? He had he has the secret wind power. Farah has the wind power and she speculates where she got it from.

17:25 So the the quote is that shield I once made of heart and wind, Who did that come from? And then Lucian says maybe day court. So even Lucian doesn't know that Tamlin has this power. So why is he trying to keep this wind power secret? Like, what is it about the wind specifically that he doesn't want people to know about him?

17:43 I think that's an interesting question. Yeah. And will we learn within the third book, right, that there is wind power associated with I think Dracon's legions, right, the Seraphim, The Seraphim. So is there a link there? I don't know. That's the only other time that we see see wind, Yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah, the other power that he seems to have, and I don't know if this is, again, just like a High Lord power, he seems to be able to make things grow.

18:15 So like when Pharaoh goes back to her room at the beginning of Wings of Ruin, her old room is covered in vines, covered in thorns. Like, it's like the earth is responding in Tamlin's rage and just making horrible, horrible things grow. Yeah, we know that His father, he tells, he tells figure that his father grew the Rose garden for his mother. We didn't really have any insight into how that happened. I assumed it just meant like he had it planted. But it might mean he literally.

18:44 He grew it. Grew it, yeah. Which again is interesting. I don't. I don't know that it matters, but that's just another power that he seems to have. Yeah, and it's interesting too, because like, I had personally just chalked that up to like high Lord power. But I think something worth bringing up here, and I think it'll come in in later episodes, is the serial says that High Lords are power.

19:06 Like, they do not have magic. They are. And we see this in like ways like you just described where they can just make things occur, make things happen up here. And they also at least Tamlin right has to give power back to the earth basically through through Kalami I. Thought they got or maybe it's returned the power to the earth.

19:26 I thought they got the. Power. No, they get it back. Yeah, there's like a there's a right, it releases power from Tamlin and then we get power back. It like keeps the power going. So they are like critical. They're a crucial part of the flow of power in all of their lands as well. And their power is like a physical thing, like when a when a high Lord dies, it shifts to their air.

19:48 So it is not just like power that's tied to Tamlin necessarily, it's power that's tied to this role in like nature almost. Which I did have the question if Tamlin dies right now, who becomes High Lord of Supreme Court? Well that's interesting, right? Cuz who filled in for him? Calamine Lucian. Why was Lucian able to fill in? Yeah, what do you mean you can just fucking substitute? Like what is that about?

20:14 Well, Lucian is the son of a high Lord, so I don't know. But then, like, we learned that no other court does calamine, right? Right. Why? Or at least not the Night Court. The Night Court doesn't do this. OK, Anyway, we're slightly digressing. We're digressing a little bit. Yeah. All right, so how does Tamlin know so much about favors mortal life?

20:33 I'm going to give you all the examples. First of all, the time that that Tamlin knows things about Pharaoh's mortal life that he shouldn't. So the first thing he knows is that her mother is dead. She never tells him this. Tamlin asked her. How did she die? When I lifted my brows, he added a bit more slowly. I didn't see signs of an older woman in your house. That's in chapter 8 of Acatar.

20:53 So Tamlin is claiming that in the, I'm going to guess 5 minutes that he was in her house, he surmised that her mother is dead. I'm kind of calling bullshit on that one. He knows Pharaoh is a hunter. That one is less weird. Like obviously he, she killed Andres. I don't know how he knows she killed Andres, but she did know she was once rich and her father lost his fortune. So what he says is how did your father lose his fortune? She says how did you know about that? Tamlin snorted.

21:18 I don't think born peasants have your kind of diction right. So she he has somehow surmised, just from the way she talks, that her father used to be rich and has lost his fortune. Which is interesting because she. Can't read right. Like I'm calling bullshit on that. Tamlin, he knows that Pharaoh was there when they broke her father's leg and Pharaoh specifically doesn't tell him this.

21:42 So in chapter 18, Pharaoh is opening up to Tamlin and she's talking about her father. She says my father. He just stopped trying after that. I couldn't bring myself to mention that final ugly moment when the other creditor had come with his cronies to wreck my father's leg right. So she's specifically does not tell Tamlin about the broken leg.

22:01 And then in chapter 22, they were showing him her painting. And one of the paintings is tall shadows of men, bright red, dripping off their fists, their wooden clubs hovering and filling the edges of the painting as they towered over the curled figure on the floor, the blood leaking from him, the leg at a wrong angle. And Tamlin says, you were there when they broke your father's leg, right?

22:20 He doesn't say what happened here. What is this? He says you were there when they broke your father's. Like, like he knows exactly what this scene is depicting to, despite the fact that Farah has not told him. So we are in a world where there are mind readers, right? We are in a world where they are Demati. We have not been told that Tamlin is a Demati. But this, I think, raises a lot of questions. There's another scene later with the cereal. I want to talk about the cereal, right? So in Book 1, Farah traps the cereal because she wants to ask the cereal questions and they're attacked by the not a. The first thing that Farah does is she frees the cereal. And this, of course, is like, a

22:56 huge thing because Farah theories think of cereals as, like, lesser beings. No fairy would do that. And the cereal is kind of forever in her death. But when she is later recounting this tale to Tamlin, Tamlin rescues her from the not a. She's telling him what happened. She does not mention the cereal. She does not mention that she freed it. She just said I was, I was, like, out in the woods, right? Like, she doesn't say I was out there for the cereal. That's chapters 14 and 15.

23:21 In chapter 16, Phara and Tamlin have a conversation. He says, what were you doing out in the western woods? She says truth or lie, truth or lie, both. I heard a legend once about a creature who answers your questions, if you can catch it. Tamlin says you went to catch the cereal. And she says, I caught the cereal. I corrected.

23:37 And did it tell you what you wanted to know? I wasn't sure. He was breathing. We were interrupted by the not a before it could tell me anything worthwhile. And then he said his mouth tight and I'd start shouting. But I think today was punishment enough. So that's where the conversation ends. That's everything thing that they say to each other about the cereal, right?

23:53 She says. I caught the cereal and it started telling me things, right? Lucian in chapter 18 says to Pharah, Tamlin told me that your first shot was to save the cereal's life, not your own. This is chapter 18. Pharah never told Tamlin that. How the fuck did Tamlin know that right? Like he is not given this information.

24:13 He is not there. He shows up later. How did Tamlin know that Pharah tried to free the cereal? So I'm pretty sold at this point that Tamlin is reading Pharah's mind. Let's talk about the line that Tamlin whispers in Pharaoh's ear. You were exactly as I dreamed you would be, too. So this is when they're in the Glen with the with the pool of Starlight, right? A couple of paragraphs before this, Tamlin has removed the glamour on himself so she can see fully the glory of this High Lord, right?

24:38 Tamlin removes his glamour and Pharah thinks it was the Tamlin I've dreamed of, but she never says it. She does not say it. And then a couple paragraphs later, Tamlin says on the next page they have had no conversations. You're exactly as I dreamed you'd be too, right? So she never says it out loud and Tamlin is responding to her thoughts.

24:58 So at the very least, at the very least, I think that Tamlin is reading Favour's mind and we can get into the d'amati of it later. But what are what are your thoughts on what I've just said? Because I said a lot. I like, I think everything that you've described clearly points to Tamlin being D'amati. What I struggle with, if he is D'amati, there are so many other points in the series where he could have used it to his advantage and seemingly didn't.

25:23 And like, maybe that was a strategic choice. But like, one thing that struck me was OK, first of all, under mountain, like he could have like it Phaver was human at that point. You could have literally just like walked right into her mind have been like, hey, by the way, like I can talk to you here and like everything is going to be OK like. He clearly did.

25:39 Love her. Like Reese affirmed that he did later in the book. Like why not use it there And then later when he's trying to convince all of the other high Lords that Reese is evil. Like if he's trying to do that, like what? Why not break into there? Why? Not yeah, especially if he's anywhere near as powerful as Reese.

25:57 Like, why not break into other people's minds in those moments where he needed to? He might not be as powerful as Reese, right? Like that is an option. I also think it's an option that Reese is not truly a Damati, and we can talk more about that on our Reese episode. But I think Reese might be something else that might make him more powerful in this regard.

26:16 Yeah, I mean, you might be right, but there is a moment there ISM in the council of the High Lords where Pharaoh says so. First of all, also, the High Lords all shield their minds, right? Right. Like, we know most of them know how to do that. We know Tarkin doesn't know how to do that, But I think most of them know how to do that.

26:30 Yeah. But there is a moment where Farah says her head starts to hurt. And people have pointed to that as evidence that Reese is trying to read her mind. I think that's evidence that Tamlin is trying to read. Her mind, right? And I think Tamlin also gets a headache, right? Tamlin gets a headache after the Demati twins are visiting them.

26:48 Tamlin. Tamlin leaves to complaining of a headache because probably because he's had his Shields up all night and there is no moment where Farrah actually goes into Tamlin's mind. Like she assumes he has no Shields up when the Damati twins are there. He is. She assumes that he doesn't know how to be a Damati, so she Shields his mind for him, but she doesn't actually go into his mind.

27:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like, I kind of think he has to be or have some version of it. I just like question his intelligence honestly Like you should have used this in so many other places. And I'm willing to say that this is Book 1, and Sarah J Maas hadn't just fully figured out what, like, Faye Powers would going to be. And, like, maybe she was just, like, all Faye can read minds. And then she decided, no, only specific Faye could read minds. Right.

27:34 Yeah, but Tamlin's definitely reading her mind in my mind in this book, even if it's not with the mortal stuff, as you mentioned, like he definitely reads her mind with the you're exactly as I dreamed you would be. And with the cereal, like, I think there's no questions on that. And then we get into the question of what is the difference between glamouring someone and going into their mind and changing things?

27:55 They're like, there's no difference there, right? Like, so I have this quote says Reese's, this is chapter 54 of Miss and Fury. Reese's explaining what he did to Claire. He says I broke into Claire's head and they brought her onto the mountain. I took away her pain. I told her to scream when expected to. So they did those things to her and I tried to make it right, but after a week, I couldn't let them do that, hurt her like that anymore.

28:16 So while they tortured her, I slipped into her mind again and ended it. She didn't feel any pain. She felt none of what they did to her even at the end, Right? So basically what he's saying is he went into her mind and he changed what she was seeing and what she was feeling, which is exactly what Tamlin does to Pharaoh.

28:32 When she comes to the Supreme Court. It is exactly the same thing like. How is that any different? Yeah, yeah, we also associate being Demati with like a depiction of a physical tapping. Right, Okay. Has a town. Arguments for that too. Sure, okay. Pharah goes into Lucian's mind and Tarkin's mind and they have no idea. And Rhys even says a Damati could walk around in your mind and you would have no idea.

28:58 I think Race's talents are first of all. That's why I think he might not be fully Damati, why I think he won't. But it's a courtesy. It's a courtesy. It's to let you know, hey, I'm here, will you let me in? Because he loves Pharah, and he even says that when he is going into her mind the first time he wanted to scare her, right? He wanted her to know that she was there. But Pharah we see go into Lucian's mind and he has no idea.

29:21 He doesn't feel her there. It's not like, not like a Shields thing, right? Because Farrah didn't have Shields up when she was human. And Rhys goes into her mind the first time. It's a courtesy thing and you don't need to do it. You don't need to do that. Yeah, OK, I'm convinced. Wow, that was. Great. But what I would add to this, like he could, I mean, yes, he could know everything that he knows based on of just being able to read the minds of the people that he encounters. And he encounters her family and he encounters her. Obviously, I do want to talk a little bit more about her mortal life because I also think it's possible that he shaped it. Like, I think it's totally possible that like we, we learn a tiny bit of the level of

30:02 deception that Tamlin is capable of, right? And that he has been sending out his men 1 by 1 as wolves waiting for, you know, a woman that could eventually love him to kill, kill them, right? Like that's, that's been his plan, which is first of all, an insane plan, But that's his plan. That's what he's been doing that we know of, right? It occurred to me when thinking about him glamouring Pharaoh's family's memories, Like how long could this have been going on for it?

30:30 Could he have known of a prophecy that Pharaoh would be the one to break this curse? And he could have manipulated her whole life, basically like her whole life to lead up to this moment. My thought came when he freaked out when she found the surreal, like he was not happy that she found the surreal. And as far as I know, the surreal is the only like real prophetic being that we have seen. And so if I'm Tamlin and I'm panicked in the Supreme Court and I'm like, Oh my God, like, how am I going to break this curse?

30:58 Who might I find to tell me how to break this curse? Potentially the surreal. We know the surreal is prophetic just for everyone's, you know, argument's sake because he says stay with the high Lord and I'll be righted. We think he's saying stay with Tamlin, but but actually what he's saying is fair, like stay with stay with Reese, like continue to live, like stay on this planet when you're dying.

31:19 Yeah. So my thought is could he have? Well, yeah, it could. It could have been a ton of times that she should have stayed with Reese. But like the one that she points out, the one that she notices is when Reese is dying. She's like, he was telling me to stay on this planet with Reese. So could like could he have caused Pharah's father ships to mysteriously disappear?

31:39 We know they didn't actually disappear, right? Like they came back or they were glamoured back. Like I don't know which is the answer. But like Pharah's whole life fell apart and was forced to hunt because her father ships disappeared with all their riches on the way to bar it. Yeah. Bara, which I like. I kind of have had a feeling in the back of my mind that Bara, like, those ships were intentionally sunk anyways, right?

32:03 And her house is also literally marked with these, like, faded ward markings around the threshold to protect from fairies. What if it was just to mark where she was? Like, what if it was just. Yeah. So basically highlighting her like, hey, she's here. The one who's going to change all of this is here. And Tamlin literally manipulated her life around her so that she had to be in the forest with an ash arrow hunting the day that Andres was out.

32:28 This is so interesting. You're so right, because there's all these pieces and we know that Tamlin can shift into other people, right, Right. So like who? Right. I have a note somewhere, like who? Like there's a merchant that sells the ash arrow. Who was that? Who was the mercenary, right? A lot of people are like, who is this mercenary? Who is this woman?

32:45 But Tamlin can shift into can be anyone. Tamlin can be anyone. I think that's a really fucking crazy idea and I love it. I don't think there even has to be a prophecy, right? I think he could have just been like, hey, I need to get going on this curse. I'm just going to pick a random family. These people seem. With daughters that can starve and one of them will hunt. Yeah.

33:08 It's a gambit. It's like there's no guarantee that that's all going to work out. If the serial knows by the time that he sees Farrah that that Farrah needs to do something specific for everything to be righted, for all to be righted, like could Tamlin have received that same Like if I'm Tamlin and I'm asking, hey, how do I get out of this? And I.

33:26 See what you're saying? He asked. The serial. I see what you're saying. The future. Then what does the surreal tell him? And Alice does know how to trap a surreal, right? So it didn't even have to be Tamlin trapping a surreal. Alice could have done it. Yeah, and intriguing. This whole thing transpired over 50 years, so it started like 30 years before Farah was even alive. But my only argument against it is at one point, Tam, oh, well, maybe it doesn't matter because at one point Tamlin stopped sending the sentries.

33:54 But maybe that's because he has this other plan in motion. Like, remember, like he stopped sending the sentries. He's like, whatever, I'm resigned to my fate. And then it was only in the last couple of years that he starts sending the centuries out again, I believe, and that's when. But. That would make sense with the timeline. If he's like, OK, now, you know, the youngest one is 19, so that's enough.

34:15 Yeah. It's very interesting. It's very interesting. There are a lot of pieces that need to fall into place for this to all work. And maybe Tamlin was behind the scenes. That'd be interesting, yeah. I don't know and I think it works whether he's crazy theories. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he could be Damati and none of it like it still matters.

34:31 Yeah. Yeah, I I think that's really interesting. But the surreal was in the Supreme Court, so. Why was the surreal in the spring? Court. Great questions. I could do an entire episode on the surreal. I think we should, and I think we should. Alright guys, look out for her episode on Surreal. We don't know when it's coming, but it's coming. Yeah, the only other thing I had about Tamlin being a Damati 2 things.

34:52 One, she mysteriously starts thinking about her family again after she leaves the Manor. So it's like kind of when she's like out of range of Tamlin, like she literally says it's only when I walk past the hedges. She says it was probably the lulling of magic that clouded my thoughts, but I didn't think of my family until I passed the outer hedge wall one morning. So sort of like when she's within the manner that he has glamoured quote, UN quote, she's not thinking of her family. Then she leaves and she can start thinking about her family again.

35:17 That's in chapter 19. And then the second thing is Faber really starts to see him for who he really is after Reese starts teaching her how to shield, right? So when she has her Shields up, when she knows how to shield a bit better, that's when things really start to fall apart. I'm not saying that this is like a direct example of it, but like, yeah, I think it's interesting that those two things coincide with each other. Like, I don't know.

35:41 How devious was Tamlin? Like, was Tamlin just, if he is a Damati, was he going into her mind and being like, oh, it's fine, you love me. It's fine. You know, I'm not saying that's necessarily true, and I'm not even necessarily saying that Damati thing is for sure. But I'm saying that Sarah J Maas has written it in such a way that this door is open if she decides that she wants to make Tamlin a Damati. Yeah.

36:01 Anyway, OK, cool, cool. All right, What is the connection between Tamlin's family and Amaranth? Yes, I didn't have tons for this one. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, I have tons, but like, it turned into my precog theory, sort of. Oh, great. OK, so I mean, as far as what we know, Tamlin's father and Amarantha were were friends and good enough friends that she avenged him in some capacity, Right. So we know that the primary connection between their families is that Amarantha was friends with Tamlin's father. We don't know a ton about Tamlin's father except for like some of the actions that he's taken against Reese's family. Amarantha was one of Hyburn's commanders and is originally from Hyburn.

36:42 So just because Hyburn is used hilariously in these books, like I think it's hilarious that Hyburn refers to a king, a people, and a continent. Like, let's just clarify from Hyburn the continent and sorry, and the island, whatever Isle Kingdom. And she was one of Hyburn's commanders that ultimately deceived him, but he was pretty happy to let her do it and, you know, took over Prithian and ruled it while he kind of plotted in the background.

37:11 It's told us that Hyburn and Tamlin, Tamlin's father, allied the king of Hyburn and Tamlin's father or or the country, whatever you like to think of it as allied because they wanted to keep their human slaves. So already we know that Tamlin's father is kind of a piece of shit. And one other important point, right, is that Amarantha, I don't know if love is the right word, but really lusts after Tamlin. The whole deal with this big curse that she's put forward is if Tamlin just comes and is my consort, like everyone can just be peaceful, like just be my consort. So she she wants Tamlin.

37:44 The only thought I had here and you hopefully have more interesting ones, is like what if like could Tamlin's father or mother be from Highburn? They are clearly a different breed of Faye, especially if the majority of their commanders are as or more powerful than Reese. Like they'll put up a fight with Reese and Reese is like the most powerful of all of them.

38:08 And if Tamlin were their progeny then that could also explain how he's so powerful and how his power, once it was returned to him, let him kill Amarantha without a second thought basically. But I don't really have much for this one. So what do you have? I had one thought here with the secret wind power you mentioned that the only other place we see that it was with the Seraphim.

38:30 I don't think that's actually entirely true. So in Book 2, when Valeris is being attacked by the hybrid forces, so the adder and other terrible creatures, there is a line that says they were like pushed as if by a fell wind. So it's like the wind was being kind of like magic to push the forces to Valeris more quickly. We don't get more than that, but there is an implication there that this they are being magically flown. They are not just flying normally. There is some kind of darker force at work here. And then we find out that Tamlin also has a wind power that can obviously carry forces because it carries Farah and it carries him, and he keeps this power a secret. He doesn't want people to know

39:15 about it, right? So did he get this power from the King of Hybrid somehow? Like, is he somehow in the Hybrid family tree or did something to the King of Hybrid do something to him when he was a child that gives him this wind power I don't have? I don't know that that one tiny line in that sentence is enough to go off of there, but that's where that's where my thinking came from.

39:37 We don't have a ton about Amarantha and Tamlin specifically more than what we've said here. But I do think there is a question of we know that Tamlin went to visit Highburn when he was younger. What did he do there? What did the king perhaps do to him? We said it in the last episode, hurt people, hurt people, and he's obviously hurting people.

39:57 So maybe someone? So when was he hurt? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, he had. So he had brothers, right? And he had brothers, definitely not the oldest. So it's just interesting because we we also have that pattern of younger brothers not necessarily being legitimate. Yeah, I don't know. I mean he well and this gets back into how is a high Lord show like.

40:19 Are you implying the King of Hybrid might be his father? No, I don't think the King of Hybrid is his father. I think either Tanlan's father is if if Tamlin is in the hybrid and family tree in some way. I think Tamlin's father could be from Hiburn. Regardless of whether it's Tamlin's father, the heart, the High Lord, or Tamlin's biological father is what I'm getting at.

40:36 I think it's more likely there were some kind of like experiments being run or something like trying to force. Like we know the king of Hybrid loves his spell book, right? Like that keeps coming up. So like, did he, was there some kind of spell he did on Tamlin that gave him this power? And then it would make sense that he would keep it hidden because he didn't want this connection to be known.

40:56 Yeah, interesting. OK. Cool. OK, all right. Why does Tamlin wear Elyrian hunting knives? All right, so for context for this one, early in ACOTAR, Tamlin is wearing a bandolier of knives. And then once Pharaoh returns to the Supreme Court in Book 3, Pharaoh realizes that these knives that he's wearing are in fact Illyrian hunting knives. And all we know of Tamlin and Reese is that they, like, totally hate each other.

41:23 They killed each other's families. They are like enemies #1 Reese refers to Tamlin as his second greatest enemy, the king of Highburn being his first. So it's like, why would Tamlin wear these knives that are so obviously connected to this, like, kind of dark part of his past? And we've heard nothing but contempt from Tamlin about Reese and the Night Court as well.

41:42 Like Tamlin's never said a nice word about the Night Court. He says the Night Court does what it's wants. They live by their own codes, their own corrupt morals. They're all sadistic killers. So the question is like, why would he be wearing these Illyrian hunting knives? And I think we do kind of get hints of this in Frost and Starlight perhaps when Tamlin asks Reese, like, would you ever forgive me for what I did to your mother and sister?

42:05 But we know that Tamlin and Reese were friends at one point, right? It seems like these knives would point to the idea that some part of him still values Reese's friendship, right? We know that Reese is surrounded by friends, but Tamlin, not really. We have one little like, we have 1 little instance of like what could be an inner circle for him the night before him in Feyra's wedding where Tamlin is like talking to these people and they're laughing like old friends, but they never come back, right? Like, and Lucian even says that he thought going to the Supreme Court would be like what it is at Night Court where it's like people and friends and talking and just like it would be an inner circle.

42:43 And it doesn't really seem like Tamlin has that. He has Lucian, but Lucian has even defected from him at one point. Yeah. We also know that Reese stopped his father from actually killing Tamlin, right. So Reese's father was going to kill Tamlin again. I ask who would be the high Lord of the Supreme Court in that case?

42:59 But there could be some gratitude there, right? Like, Reese did ultimately save Tamlin's life and kind of give Tamlin his title whether he wanted it or not. So I think we are being set up for there to be a Tamlin still values Reese's friendship, maybe actually wants to be friends with him even after Farah. Maybe we're being set up for that redemption and that full circle.

43:21 That's option one. Do you want to talk through option one or do you want me to talk about option 2? I had some more things. I mean, the short answer is like whichever way you, whichever way you shake it, I think these knives are from Reese. Like we have confirmed friendship between the two of them.

43:35 They both kind of admitted it. They both also kind of told half truths about each other. So I don't know that we know the whole story about the degree of friends that they were. Reese sought Tamlin out when he wasn't at the war camp or in court. And to me, this is a little bit more than like, we're just friends, right?

43:54 Like we're like we're just acquaint of friendly enough for me to like teach you some things. Like he went out of his way to help Tamlin. So he obviously empathize with him, but that's pretty. That's a lot to do for a friend. Like go out of your way to go find like the night Court is up here in the Spring Court is down here. Like they're not exactly neighbors now. There are doors and there's winnowing, but. Well, well, we know that you need permission to be in another courts territory, right?

44:23 So we get that when Reese wants to go to Summer Court to see Tarkin and we get it in silver flames when Cassie and Ernesto and Eris are trespassing in Supreme Court, right? So like this is not as simple as like popping over for a hot bed, you know, like this is there's more to it than that. Like this is kind of complicated because they're not from the same. Yeah, and so, and we know that people knew, but that Reese's family disapproved.

44:48 And so a tablet's family. They disapproved. Been more than friends, maybe. That's an intriguing thought. I don't know, because it would it would work right with what happened to more like how pissed would Tamlin's and Reese's father's respectively be if they're like heir apparents were about to not have a line? Like that'd be a big problem for people who are like them, right? I don't know.

45:16 Oh. My God, that'd be crazy. I mean, Reese isn't gay, obviously. Yeah, but there's fluidity. No, absolutely. But I'm saying like, yeah, I guess that's fair. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Reese did say he's open to having a man join them in the bedroom, so I totally agree that Reese is probably fluid, but like, I see what you're.

45:40 Saying they wouldn't have produced an air. They wouldn't have produced an air, right? Which is like exactly why more sexuality would have been viewed a problem, why she is so cautious about it. When we get into option 2. Are you going to talk about them killing Reese's? Mother and sister, yeah.

45:55 OK, I'll wait for that. That's fine. Go ahead. Well, option 2 is just that Tamlin feels a lot of guilt about being responsible for Reese's mother and sister's death, which we know was Reese's mother and sister were going to visit Reese at an Illyrian war camp. Tamlin's father had grown scared of Reese and all of his power. Reese was supposed to meet up with his mother and sister but he decided to stay at the war camp and train. And Tamlin told his father where Reese's mother and sister were going to be and they ambushed them and they were killed and their heads were sent to Reese's family in a box. And I guess Reese's family at this point is just him and his father.

46:32 But I they were found at the nearest camp. But yeah, yeah, Tamlin could and clearly kind of is holding a lot of guilt around that, right? Because we know in of course, 1/4 Frost and Starlight, he he asked Reese, like, will you ever forgive me? And Reese says I don't recall hearing an apology, which is a great fucking point.

46:53 Like you got to apologize first, Tamlin. Yeah, yeah. I think the the big thing that I'm missing with that is like the why Tamlin's father set out with the other men in the family to kill Reese. Like, were they really just upset that the sons of two high Lords were friends? Like that seems like not the full story, like not enough to go set out and kill kill Reese.

47:16 Like we don't have a better reason than that, but. Why would Tamlin? Well, maybe Tamlin didn't actually give. Maybe this is a story that we haven't been told correctly, but we've been told that Tamlin gave his father father the location, right? That's why Reese can't forgive Tamlin, because Tamlin gave his father the location of where his mother and sister would be.

47:35 That's the role he played in this. Yeah. If recent Tamlin were lovers, I don't think he would have done that. But like we don't know the conditions under which Tamlin. Yeah, and his. Father. Why would Tamlin want Reese dead, right? Doesn't really make sense. I mean, Tamlin's father viewed Reese as a. Threat, right?

47:56 Like he didn't like how powerful he both. Tamlin and Reese were more powerful than Tamlin's father. Yeah, so I mean, like the other option here is like could could Tamlin and Reese's sister have been involved and like Reese and maybe helped keep it hidden? That would have really pissed probably Tamlin's father off because they're half breeds and like they were very controversially in power anyways. And so like, we've seen this before, right? Like when someone sees a lover of the son of a high Lord, potentially heir apparent that's unfit. Like let me set out and kill them. And both Reese, Reese's sister were both half breeds and Reese's mother was Illyrian.

48:37 So could it have been like a species driven I'm gonna kill you off so that you don't taint my bloodline? Yeah, I mean, that would kind of make sense with everything we know about him. I've certainly heard that theory, but it still doesn't. The question of how Tamlin's father found out where they were is up in the air, right?

48:55 Because if that's the case, and maybe either way, now that I think about it, Tamlin's not giving up that information willingly, right? Yeah, willingly. Yeah, if Tamlin did in fact tell his father, which we don't know how Reese knows, that Tamlin told his father, then it was tortured out of him or something like that.

49:11 He's he's tricked, I think. Yeah, I think there's more to this story, but I think, yeah, he wears A Lyrian hunting and I was because of his friendship with Reef. It gets back to his friendship with Reese, no matter what. The question is, what kind of happened within that friendship? Yeah, yeah, I think Tamlin had to be forced into that event somehow, right? Unless something horrible happened that we just don't know yet.

49:32 And in that case, like we just don't know, that would have cleaved them apart so significantly that he would have said, yeah, I'm going to hand Reese over to you on a silver platter, Dad. Then this doesn't really add up, especially because he shows remorse. Tamlin's father keeps Reese's mother and sister's wings, allegedly. We've never seen them.

49:51 We've never seen proof. Of that into the study and Tamlin says I burned them a long time ago. Could have been glamour, could have never been there. But Tamlin is remorseful. Yeah. All right, so anyway, Tamlin loves Reese. Secretly, maybe platonically, maybe more. That's the moral. That's right.

50:09 Yeah, There is a line. I think it's at the high, the Council of the High Lords, that I think at some point we should dissect. But Tamlin says to Reese, Like, I always forgot what you really were, and now everyone gets to see it. Yeah. When he has his wings out. Oh. It's when he has his wings out. It's when he has his wings out, yeah. Well, that makes sense then, yeah. Meaning an Illyrian.

50:29 An Illyrian. Yeah. OK, well, that's when they like, come to. They decide like no more facade. Reese doesn't hide his wings. He has them fully. It's interesting because he says he likes, can summon his wings as he pleases, which to me does not seem like he's glamouring them out of existence. Like he just chooses whether they are there or are not, which is so interesting. Or is he summoning them from a pocket realm? Perhaps we can get into it later. That's a different episode.

50:56 It's a different episode. Yes, all right, all right. Why does Pharah keep falling asleep uncontrollably around Hamlet? So Pharah falls asleep so much in A Court of Thorns and Roses. I have 4 material instances of it that I want to talk about, two have clear explanations, 2 in my opinion don't, and I want to talk about what they could be. The first instance of Fair of falling asleep uncontrollably is when she's being brought back to the Supreme Court by Tamlin. The quote is.

51:27 I open my mouth to again ask for his name, but a growl of annoyance rippled out of him. I didn't have a chance to struggle to fight back when a charged metallic Tang stung my nose, exhaustion slammed down upon me, and blackness swallowed me whole. So she, like, feels the magic. That's the charged metallic Tang, which I also think is interesting. We'll talk about that later.

51:46 But she can feel magic. That is, I guess humans maybe just can, but maybe they can't. And she falls asleep. And Tamlin, we come to understand, does this to kind of conceal her path home. The second instance is the one that you already mentioned in this episode in the Meadow with Tamlin. They're there in the Meadow with the pool of Starlight. And the quote is?

52:05 I tried to think of an excuse for my Fordness, but a yawn crept for me as a sudden weight pressed on my eyes. He asked. What about your part of the bargain? She says what? He leaned closer, his smile turning wicked. What about my kiss? I grabbed his fingers. Here. I sat and slammed my mouth against the back of his hand. There's your kiss.

52:22 Tamlin roared with laughter, but the world blurred, lulling me to sleep. The Willow beckoned me to lie down, and I obliged. From far off, I heard Tamlin curse Farah sleep. I wanted sleep and there was is no better place to sleep than right here. And she falls asleep. So this one happens right as they're having a moment, right? And Tamlin seems to not want it to happen. Her falling asleep, her phone doesn't want her falling asleep to happen.

52:47 Yeah. Doesn't want her falling asleep. The third instance is after she and Tamlin hooked up, that like little blip that it was, and he decided that she was leaving. And the quote was, I didn't want to sleep. I didn't want to lose a minute with him, but immense exhaustion was pulling me away from consciousness until all I knew was the touch of his fingers in my hair and sounds of his breathing. Another instance where maybe he wanted it, but they just kind of had a moment, like they were feeling things for each other. She didn't want to leave him and she was pulled into this sleep. And then the 4th instance is when she's put to sleep by him, when the carriage is returning to her, to her family's estate. Did you have any other instances

53:25 of her falling? Yeah, I think there is one more. It is. It is when you mentioned before when the puka shows up at as her father and she says you don't know him. My father wouldn't have bothered to do either. I think this is when he's walking her back to the house, she says. And they all would have died anyway.

53:44 This is talking about her family. And they all would have died anyway. Once they ran into things like the phuka or the bogey or the not a. A silence blanketed my mind until I was so exhausted I could barely think. And I couldn't stop myself from saying, you don't know him. My father wouldn't have bothered to do either.

53:57 Tamlin looked at me for a long moment. So this is when she's thinking about her family? Yeah. She gets exhausted. Yeah. Yeah. So she's, she's falling asleep uncontrollably. We, we are given 2 clear points where we know it's being done to her right? Like she's not choosing it. And that's when she's coming to and from the Supreme Court.

54:17 So we know that making people fall asleep is the thing that's happening in this novel. I think two things could be going on here. 1 is like the easy uninteresting answer which is just something as simple as this honestly really well done symbolism that Sarah J Maas pulls through books one and two where Tamlin is symbolic of Farrah being put to sleep, dulled, lulled into this false sense of security, content to just waste away in a palace and wreath when she goes to the night court is described frequently as waking her up.

54:47 Like she says multiple times in Mist and Fury that she feels awake. Like when she's out to dinner with the gang and Valaris. Like she's like, your food makes me feel awake. The second potential explanation that's a little bit more interesting is someone else who can do this is aware of the curse and that Pharaoh was on the path to freeing Tamlin from it.

55:08 Because remember, if she just if a human just loved him, like if human loved him enough to marry him, then this curse is broken. And so each time that she's being each time except for the carriage times that she's being kind of lulled out of consciousness are times when she might have started to feel love, Like when when she's falling asleep after they hooked up.

55:28 He's like, I love you, thorns and all. And she can't say anything because she's falling asleep. So then who could have done this? I don't think it could have been Amarantha because had she known that this was happening, she would have just sent for her and killed her. So I don't think that Amarantha was playing like background de Madi in this situation.

55:46 She's also not a de Madi. I don't think it was Tamlin either, because obviously he in those moments, like he would want to be free. I don't think it was Wreath because we all know he also wanted to be free. Like he even confesses to Pharaoh. Like some of the reasons he did things were just because he wanted this curse to end, like he wanted to see his family again. So others one thought I had, I don't think it's right, but like Lucian, he wears a fox mask.

56:10 We probably don't really know the whole story about him. And we know that he's like, he's wearing a fox mask because he's deceptive. It's pointed out a few times, like him wearing this is warranted. I don't have a great reason for that because I would think he would also want to be free. And then maybe just like, maybe just Hiburn, like maybe Hiburn or Hyburn's allies are like interfering in some way and being aware of what's happening and are like lulling her out of consciousness to avoid her breaking this curse. I don't think we'll ever find out, honestly, but I think the timing was important enough to note. And I'm curious your thoughts.

56:49 I, I definitely thought it was just Tamlin, if I'm being honest, because the, the instance that you say where he cursed there by that Willow tree that Tamlin says always puts him to sleep. So I just kind of thought that was the Willow putting to sleep. And every other time that sticks out the when they after they hook up for the first time when she falls asleep. I didn't think that was that crazy. Like it's like pretty late at night. So I was like, OK, it kind of makes sense if she's falling asleep.

57:14 I just kind of thought it was a Tamlin thing and that he can go into her mind. He can clearly go into her mind, right? Because he does this to her when they're crossing the border. Right. Yeah. It would be, it'd be intriguing if it were someone else too, from like far away. But yeah, I don't know who that would be or why I guess if it.

57:30 Is Tamlin like why is he sending her to sleep when she could break the curse just because he doesn't actually I think her to marry him? Well, guilt. I have in my notes that she starts to fall asleep kind of when she starts to think about her family. So like that instance with the puka, she's thinking about her family and then she's like, oh, I'm so tired.

57:48 So I thought it was kind of Tamlin's ploy to keep her away from her family, to break the curse. It's interesting that we saw this very differently. Well, what about the time in the Meadow then? You kind of thought that was? It's a Willow, yeah. OK, so maybe it's just symbolism then? I like this symbolism though. It's really, I didn't pick up on that, but you're totally right. I mean, I think the symbolism.

58:10 Is there whether it's also a plot point or not? It's also like depressed people sleep a lot, right? So this is kind of similarism for depression too, right? Like. Yeah, depressed people sleep a lot, but panicked people don't. That's. True, and she's not really depressed yet. Yeah. Yeah, good point.

58:31 OK. All right, that concludes the AC guitar portion of this episode. So we're about to go into our mass first portion. This is your spoiler warning for the entire Mass first, So thanks. These all of Throne of Glass, all of Crescent City. If you have not read Throne of Glass or Crescent City, go no farther. Turn around.

58:50 We've loved having you. We hope you enjoyed our AC guitar deep dive on Tamlin. We'll see you next week with our next episode, but for now, put this down. This is your last spoiler warning. Here we go. Ronnie. Where do Tamlin's powers come from? OK. Shall we start with Tamlin's physical description? I would like you sure.

59:08 The short version is he's golden haired with green eyes, flecked with amber. His eyes were green even in beast form, they looked human. We talked already about Tamlin's powers and the fact that he has wind, right? And so if we're linking things to other universes now like we know, so we already know that we have cross book lineage happening, right? Like Lydia for example in Crescent City is a ascended of Brannon which is a character from Throne of Glass. Like we we know the fire line has been kind of passed down there.

59:40 So in my opinion everything is on the table as far as who could be related to who between these worlds. I had two thoughts on Tamlin. He could have ancestry ties or even direct lineage to in my opinion to fake couples, but I have a very strong preference towards one of them that we are aware of. One fake couple is Rowan and Alan and then the other fake couple is Lasandra and Adian.

1:00:04 Rowan's physical description is silver hair, tan skin with pine green eyes. He has wind magic, ice magic, healing magic, lightning and shape shifting. And then Alan's physical description is golden hair with ash river blue eye. Eyes bright blue with gold rings around them. Adrian looks like Alan basically, so I'm not going to restate his physical description because it's the same Lasandra. We don't know what she looks like. Like she presents with green eyes and that's a great. Point.

1:00:33 That's a great point. We have no idea what she looks like. Yeah. But OK, so I'll talk through each of them because I'm actually super excited about this. So there's more things that I find hard to reconcile with Lasandra and Adian than Rowan and Alan. One we don't know what Lasandra actually looks like, but this could very well be fine because we know from Pharaoh's pregnancy that shifted form genetics do have an impact on progeny because Pharaoh was Illyrian when she conceived Nyx and then that child was Illyrian. So it like the green eyes could still be Lasandra's if she had green eyes when they conceived this child or like any future whatever child is between them and Tamlin if it's not direct child, but there's no wind power

1:01:14 between Lasandra and Adrian. And also Adrian is half human and Lasandra potentially also like she's a shifter but she's never described as Fae even though maybe she is. And so it doesn't really seem like it would result in high Lord level power. Rowan and Alan on the other hand, I think that's it. Like I think that's it.

1:01:33 The only thing that I can't reconcile are the amber flex and Tamlin's eyes. And like if they're distant relatives, like whatever. The other thing is like all that fire and none of it was passed down. But I guess it wouldn't be that wild if that wasn't passed down because Alan gave it up. So my vote is that he's related to. Rowan OK.

1:01:52 What do you think? Yeah, so I also, I had a lot of interesting things about Rowan and Alan. So when Alan first meets. So we know that Tamlin's beast form and we didn't actually even talk about this, but I just want to read the quote for the beast form. The beast had to be as large as a horse, and while his body was somewhat feline, his head was distinctly wolfish fish.

1:02:11 I didn't know what to make of the curled elk like horns that protruded from his head. But lion or hounder elk, there was no doubting the damage his black dagger like claws and yellow flank fangs could inflict. So what we have is a wolf's head with horns, right? Elk like horns and then kind of a a larger than life, a larger than wolf body. Aylan when she first meets Rowan, what she says is all Fay possessed A secondary animal form. Selena.

1:02:36 She's still going by Selena at that point was currently in hers. Her mortal human body is animal as the birds Wheeling above. But what was his? He could have been a wolf, she thought with that layered sort coat that flow to mid thigh like a pelt. His foot falls so silent. So we have Tannen's wolf form.

1:02:51 Talen's beast form is wolfish and Aylan thinks that Rowan could have been. We of course find out he is not a wolf. He is a fuck. What is he? I'm thinking Buzzard, but I know he's not a Buzzard. He's a hawk. He's a hawk, a white hawk, right? So I thought that was a really interesting and Gabriel is a Mountain Lion, right? Gabriel is a Mountain Lion.

1:03:12 Fenris is a wolf. Fenris is a white Fenris. Is a wolf. So that's interesting too. Fenris's eyes are black. I look this up. They're Onyx. So I was like, maybe it's Fenris. Rowan and Aylan's story even kind of starts similarly. Like he is basically sent to collect her and bring her to this fake world, right?

1:03:31 And they go on a journey together. It's not quite the same, but they're similar character beats and he's taking her to a land that's being secretly ruled by an evil queen, right? Similar beats. So I I hear what you're saying. The wind power has like played enough into it yet, right? Like we don't know why he's keeping it secret. As we talked about maybe the king of Highburn has this power to it's I'm not sold on it.

1:03:55 I have here notes. I just OK, so I did go power by power, but yeah, let's talk about the wind. So I have Rowan is the most obvious answer here. Other Rowan slash Tamlin cops. They do both have green eyes, as you talked about. They both bite their women, right? So as we talked about with Kalan Mai and we haven't seen any other fae do this, Tamlin has this instinct to bite Farah. And we know in Throne of Glass that's how you claim someone, right?

1:04:20 So like Rowan's over here biting Alan like all the time. Yeah. But Tamlin is the only fae we've seen in Perthian who does that. So where did that come from? So I definitely think that speaks to the throne of Glass. Really. Yeah. So I buy it. I know people are very convinced about the Lasandra thing, but Lasandra can't shift other people. And that's really Tamlin's power here, right, Is that he can somehow shift other people.

1:04:46 We do see someone who can shift other people. And I don't know this is ever confirmed, but in Crescent City it is rumored that Jessaba Roga can shift people into animals. Right. Jessica Roga is a human who got her powers from the Apollyon, the Prince of Hell right? Accidentally, and he is the Prince of the Pit, which is the most powerful of the Princess of Hell.

1:05:09 Apollyon takes on many forms, so when he appears in front of Bryce and Hunt, he appears differently. In front of Hunt, he has leathery wings and sounds kind of like an Illyrian, which I think is interesting. But in front of Bryce, he chooses, he has chosen to appear in a golden haired, golden skin body, handsome in the way that ancient statues were handsome golden hair, golden skin.

1:05:29 That sounds like Tamlin to me. So I think we also have a potential Prince of Hell offspring here that we're dealing with, which I know people love to talk about with the Illyrians. But, and this is assuming that Jasper Roga can in fact transform animals. We've never actually seen her do it, I don't think.

1:05:45 I don't think we ever see her do it. It's just remembered that that's one of her powers. She can do it. She got it from her Prince of Hell. A Prince of hell. That sounds like he chooses to appear looking a lot like Tamlin to Bryce, so I thought that was very interesting. Bryson also at one point describes his movements as more animal than humanoid, which sounds a lot like Tamlin, right?

1:06:06 That sounds very much like Tamlin. Yeah, I think the Prince of Hell angle is interesting. I think he's just. And I went this path with, Well, I'll, I'll let you keep going 'cause I have one more unhinged thought, admittedly. Unhinged thought that's pretty much it in terms of where the only other thing I had the earth magic, if he truly does have Earth magic where he can make these vines grow. Tristan Flint also has that in Crescent City and we know that Tristan it's tied to Avalon, it's tied to the Fay home world. So that does seem like it might be and I haven't really refreshed my memory on this one.

1:06:36 I'm going to be so honest with you, so if I'm wrong, let me know. But it does seem like maybe that is a specific power that came over from the Fay home world, which we know of course that this planet is and that Tristan Flint has so. Yeah. Our boy Cham Cham has a lot of power. He has a lot of power. And like, I kind of think, yeah, it's hard to know, right? Like, what's his high Lord power versus what's just like him? And maybe that's like what this wind is, is maybe the wind is just him.

1:07:02 And then like everything that's like, you know, physical manipulation, glamouring, whatever is is high Lord power. I think the other place that I went, I'm going to just spoil maybe a fun reveal, but like I don't see your way around talking about it right now. Like there's no way that the king of Hyburn is not Valg. So, so given that if Hyburn, if if we think about hybrid and as Valg infested, basically right there are Valg parasites possessing fae bodies.

1:07:29 We know one example of a Valg possessed human that produce another human with crazy magic. Like could that have happened with Tamlin? Right. Like if Tamlin's father whether it was the high Lord or not. And maybe this is how high Lords got their power? I don't know. If Tamlin's father had a Valg possessing him when Tamlin was conceived, does that just put everything on the table? Because it's just gonna.

1:07:53 Happen with Dorian. So fucking interesting. Holy shit. You're totally right. Yeah, you're totally. Right. Dorian was human, there's no rule that says that it can't be Faye as well. Is that how the High Lords exist? All of them maybe? Definitely think this is on the table for Tamlin and for Reece.

1:08:10 I agree. Which begs the question, is De Mahdi even a thing? Is it even a real thing? Or is it or is it just being valid, valid progeny? All right, we'll get into that later. Yeah. OK. So I think that's really interesting. Yeah. Well, so that's why I brought up it feels like maybe the wind thing was an experiment because we know the valid love to like experiment on people.

1:08:28 Yeah, right. Yeah, I comment without you. Yes, and I want to make it clear for our listeners that's what I was referring to is that we know the valve love to do experiments to try to create new things out of old things. Were they doing some experiment on Tamlin when he was a child over on hybrid that resulted in this wind power?

1:08:45 Is that why he's keeping it secret? The fact that the Seraphim also have it when we we know we know that the Illyrians were created to be the foot soldiers of the Osteria, right? We find that out in Crescent City. It seems that the Seraphin are probably also have probably also been created by the asteri, right? So they are experiments.

1:09:03 So we're not going to get into if these Asteri and the valve are the same thing. That's kind of neither here nor there. The point is we have been told that certain races have been created by other races as experiments. One of those races could be the Seraphim, which have this wind power. So if Tamlin has a 2, does that mean he got it as a creation as a result of an experiment by the valve on him?

1:09:26 Yeah. And there are Valg in this story. Absolutely, guys. Absolutely. Amarantha has black eyes. We'll talk about it later. So does the king of Hyburn. So does the king of Hyburn. So do. And he has no name. Lots of people without names in this book. The amount of times I wrote nameless is my price on my. Yeah.

1:09:45 Yeah. OK, cool. So in summary, we think we have a strong rowing connection with the Secret Wind. We're not as sold on the Sandra and Adian. We also potentially have an Apollyon connection from Crescent City and we think Tamlin might be a Valg offspring. Yeah, one of them probably not multiple.

1:10:07 This is how we're starting this season. It's possible. It's possible. OK. Very, very, very intriguing. I don't think all of those work. I think he has to be some. Yeah, I think it's got. One or two of those things, not all of them. Cool. All right, next question. All right, What is Tamlin's connection to the wolves in Crescent City?

1:10:24 I actually just went back and rewrite this part of Crescent City, so it was pretty interesting. Tamlin, specifically Tamlin's beast form, the wolf with the horns is the sigil for the pack of devils in Crescent City. So specifically the pack led by Danica, who is, surprise, surprise, another blonde. I'm not saying necessarily that I think Tamlin is in her her bloodline, but we know that she is very, very obsessed with bloodlines.

1:10:47 And if if Tamlin is a Rowan descendant, then it's possible maybe that Danica is also a Rowan descendant. We'll get into that later. But we know that the shifters come from the throne of Glass World. It is specifically the Pack of Devils and the Fender family, though it's not all of the Wills wolves in Crescent City, but it's something specifically about the Fender.

1:11:05 So that's kind of a question. The exact quote is her jaw tightened, the older tattoo on her neck, the horned grinning wolf that served as the sigil for the Pack of Devils rippling with tension. So again, I just read the quote of Tamlin's beast for him. It's also not just the tattoo, like Tamlin has the same instincts as the wolf.

1:11:22 So in Crescent City, Bryce says Danica and Danica's trying to protect Bryce. She says Danica had said as much several times, unable to stop that alpha wolf's instinct to protect at all costs. And what Pharaoh says about Tamlin and misted Fury is, and I think, I think what happened to him, to us under the mountain broke him perhaps more than it had broken me. The drive to protect at all costs, even my own well-being. I think he wanted to stifle it, but he couldn't. He couldn't like all of it.

1:11:51 So like, there's it's not just that his beast form is their sigil. Like he has all these wolf instincts, right? Which it has all the instincts that the wolfs have. And again, in Crescent City, we find out that the wolves were kind of created by the Asteri, engineered by the Asteri to be these soldiers, these alpha soldiers that would kind of protect at all costs.

1:12:12 Like all these what we see as toxic traits in Tamlin were actually like bred into the wolves. Yeah. Tamlin is not a wolf. So I'm not saying that excuses his behavior. But he turns all of his sentries into wolves. But he turns all of his centuries into wolves, too. And Farah is also constantly describing herself as a wolf, which I find she sees a wolf like a.

1:12:33 Creature in the aura, Boris. In the aura, Boris, right? I think there's a lot more to talk about there. But yeah, this idea of Tamlin being a wolf and Feyra also being a wolf, I don't have a concrete theory on this one. This was more just like pointing out these connections on our crazy whiteboard. But yeah, that's what I had.

1:12:50 Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think he, it's interesting time horizons between these books, right? It's not super clear who. It's not clear. Could be descended from versus an ancestor of because like our our timelines are all messed up. Like we think that the characters in A Court of Thorns and Roses are living at the same time as the characters in Crescent City.

1:13:15 And so then does there need to like is there a split in bloodlines happening? Well we were told, and again I haven't fully done a Crescent City reread so if I'm wrong come at me. But we're literally told the vendor specifically Fendier specifically, are like bred by the Esteri right? Like. Some of you was bred out of them.

1:13:35 I don't know. Right. Like, so was Tamlin kind of the original alpha here, And they were like, we want to take what we see as the worst, most toxic parts of him and turn that into the Fender. I don't know how that would work. But there's clearly some connection here that Sarah J Maas wants us to make. We don't have nearly enough right now to make. And he would have to, I mean, he would have to be the descendant of that, right?

1:13:59 Because the Daglin were like they're 15,000 years ago or something. But we don't know. Yes, the Daglin were there 15,000 years ago. The Esteri arrived on Midgard 15,000 years ago. So like the idea is that the Daglin left? I guess the idea is the Daglin left the Faye homeworld and came. Wait, do you think that the the Daglin and the Asteria are different?

1:14:20 No, OK. No, they're the same. Yeah, I think that's confirmed. Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah, I think it's confirmed, yeah. Yeah, right. And the Asteria. So then the Daglin would have been the Breeders in this case, Yeah, like, if they were breeding foot soldiers. And so maybe, like, I don't know, maybe Tamlin's just a big crossbreed. I don't know.

1:14:38 I mean, that would explain his inability to control his rage. I started this episode saying there's absolutely no excuse for his behavior and now I'm giving an excuse. It's more of an explanation. An explanation. I mean, if he's literally bred for this, yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if people are going to like these series or think we're completely insane as per usual. I don't know.

1:14:57 This is your first episode with us. Welcome. This is kind of what it's like. All right, pre caught corner. Pre caught corner. All right, for our new listener, since this is our first pre caught corner of our new season, pre cod corner is it's imperial thing. It just means like looking into the future. So these are our and I'm going to start telling you right now that I cheated this pre cod corner and this is not what I'm doing.

1:15:20 But typically with pre cod corner, we use this as a corner to make crazy predictions about what will happen in these books in the future. It is kind of a choose your own adventure. For the rest of the episodes, we ask ourselves the same questions. This one we can go in whatever direction we want.

1:15:36 So Ronnie, do you want to go first this week? Yeah. I don't know how this is going to go. All right, so Tamlin very notably has not had a mate revealed in this series, right? There is a super popular theory out there in the world and the Internet that Tamlin's mate was Amarantha. I think Tamlin's mate was pre Co corner theories are crazy.

1:16:05 OK, so just like like let that be known. Like if you're new here, like yeah. And you're like Oh my God, there's no way this is true. I don't usually think my pre Co corner theories are true. OK, but this is our safe space for our most insane theories with very little. Evidence, yeah. But we talked about how Tamlin's family could have been connected with Amarantha. Amarantha and Tamlin's father were friends. We know that mates can have kind of big age gaps. I think Tamlin's mate was Amarantha, except Amarantha was dead, had before this book ever started. I don't think this needs a big reveal because I think we've already talked about this and everybody who's read all three books knows it, I think.

1:16:41 But the King of Highburn and Amarantha are most likely Valk which is a parasitic species that occupies human hosts and Throne of Glass. And so the reasons we think this. In Throne of Glass, the valid king is also occupies A nameless king. The king of Hybrid is nameless Valg occupied hosts have black eyes. Both the king and Amarantha have black eyes and both die by being beheaded.

1:17:07 Both Amarantha and the King of Hybrid die by being beheaded and that is how you kill Valg. I think that Amarantha was Tamlin's mate at one point and then she was occupied. I think she specifically potentially could be occupied by a sticky and spider. Her eyes were described as black and unnatural, like inhuman. Her physical description is her red gold hair was neatly braided and woven through her golden crown, the deep color enriching her Snow White skin, which in turn set off her Ruby lips. But while her Ebony eyes shown, there was something that sucked at her beauty, some kind of permanent sneer to her features that made her allure seem contrived and cold. To paint her would have driven

1:17:46 me to madness. The adder also literally says she has pincers, whether they're her pincers or her own staff, the adder says and you better hold your tongue or my lady will do so for you. And her pincers are not kind. I don't know that he was talking specifically about Amarantha here or Amarantha's like minions or maybe Amarantha's superior, but like occupied by Valk in some capacity.

1:18:07 So I think she could have been Tamlin's mate and Amarantha died inside her body while the Valk host occupied it, which we know happened, has happened in Throne of Glass. And so she tried to retain Amaranth possessor, whoever that is, tried to retain a mating bond with Tamlin, maybe even occupied the body because she wanted to be mated to Tamlin but couldn't. And that's why he has devolved into this like, frankly, absolute wreck after he kills Amarantha because Amarantha was never Amarantha in this book.

1:18:39 OK, so you think the triggering event for Tamlin's, but Tamlin loves Farah Like Reese says, Tamlin still loves you. You can love somebody and not be their mate. No, I know. But yeah, I guess that's. True. And have another mate like we see Elaine kind of doing that with Azrael a little bit. I'm shocked you dropped this theory in this episode.

1:18:56 I thought this would be an Amaranth episode theory for sure. I just think it, I think it ties more to Tamlin's actions than to Amarantha. Like, yeah, yeah, I mean, Amarantha, we need to talk about her being Valg in her episode, but. Yeah, OK, so you think Tamlin was was the true Amarantha's mate? Real Amarantha OG Amarantha Faye Amarantha's mate. Yeah.

1:19:18 Which like, imagine, like, imagine that horror, like your mate being occupied by Valg and then, like, ruling your nation and cursing you and like, you have to face her everyday. Like, maybe that's why he couldn't do it. Like maybe that's why it was too much for him. Was like, I can't be around you and look at your face every day and no, it's not you. You're giving me all these reasons to sympathize with Tamlin when I said at the beginning of the episode I would never hurt him.

1:19:43 This episode is about Tamlin. To be clear, this theory is about Tamlin, not. About Amarantha, yeah, I don't have any reason to not think that. I like that theory way better than just the standard Amaranth that was Tamlin's made. I think there's absolutely no evidence for Amarantha as we see her being Tamlin's made.

1:20:00 Well, yeah. And if if Amarantha is occupied by Valg like Valg don't have they're parasites. Cool, I like that. What is your precog theory? I'm going to use this to debunk a theory, if that's OK, about Lucian and Tamlin. OK, OK, so the theory we talked about how we know that Tamlin can turn himself into other people because Phaera turns himself herself into IANTH.

1:20:25 We know we've talked about how Tamlin can turn other people into other people given this train of thought because we know he can shift other people into well, so he can shift other people into other people theoretically. The theory is for whatever reason, at the King of Higher Burns Palace at the end of this is actually also about Tamlin's mate at the end of 1/4 of Mist and Fury.

1:20:44 For whatever reason, Tamlin and Lucien have switched places. So Tamlin has shifted Lucien into looking like Tamlin and Tamlin has shifted himself into looking like Lucien. I have no fucking idea why they would have done this. That is the theory. That would be that would be so crazy because of how much of Lucian we see OK, so so this is yeah, yeah, so this is the theory and so the.

1:21:08 Theory is when Elaine comes out of the cauldron and Lucian says you're my mate, it's really Tamlin saying it. Yeah, right. So Tamlin and Elaine are mates, which there's a lot of spring imagery with Elaine, right, Like her, she loves her gardens. She loves the gardens that her Shields our iron. An iron fence covered with I think roses like covered. Like there's a lot of spring imagery. I understand why people think Elaine Entailment might be mates.

1:21:36 This doesn't work at all because we see Lucian use his curse breaker power when he is in the King of Highburn. Right? But, and we know that we are talking about this because Lucian's true father is Helian, who is heliad spell breaker, right? Not the King of Autumn. He get he has firepower from his mother. But this is a scene and we it's not confirmed. You have to read between the lines. But this is a scene where we see him use his spell breaker power. So the King of Highburn has Tamlin, Farah and Leashed and Lucian leashed with white hot magic when they're throwing a lane into the cauldron.

1:22:13 Tamlin cannot break free from this magic. So the quote is Tamlin strained against the collar of light on his neck, around his wrist. His golden power failed to no avail. So Tamlin cannot get out of it. Lucian does get out of it. So there was a flare of light and a scrape, and then Lucian was stalking toward a lane.

1:22:30 Freed of his restraints, Tamlin remain leashed on the ground, a gag of white iridescent magic in his mouth. Now, the reason that Lucian can do this is because he is helium spell breaker stuff, right? So there is literally no way that Tamlin and Lucian have switched places here. It does not make any sense. This is another secret power that Lucian has, but it is not a secret power that Tamlin has.

1:22:51 That is not a scenario where Tamlin Illusion has switched places. But as we previously talked about, Tamlin can literally be anyone, so we should keep an eye out for that. I really like the idea that he was the merchant who sold them the Ash ARL, that he was potentially the mercenary. If he was a mercenary, that would actually make a ton of sense because that's how he finds out who Feyra is. Fuck, I love that idea.

1:23:10 I'm going with that that Tamlin's the mercenary. Tamlin being puppeteer for Feyra's entire life is currently occupying 95% of my brain right now. Yeah, because he also so talks about, well, what does he call him? He calls him the Martex who we never. See. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who look a heck of a lot like him. Also like.

1:23:30 Him, like, his beast form. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, he wouldn't know what humans do and don't actually, like, see necessarily. I kind of really like that idea that Tamlin is the mercenary. OK, maybe that's my precard. Corner theory. Tamlin is the mercenary. Tamlin is the mercenary. That's how he finds out that Feyre is the one who killed. Because think about this, Think about this. Andrus hasn't come back, but he doesn't know what happened. Is Andrew sorry, Andrus doesn't come back? He doesn't know what's happened to Andrus, but he figures a human has killed Andrus.

1:24:00 So he goes to the market and he buys the house, goes. To the market and he buys the pelt and that's how he finds out that Andrus is dead and who killed him. And it's probably a good way to honor Andrews, too, since he knew him and liked him, right? And he knew that Pharah skinned him. How would he know that?

1:24:17 He says you killed him and you skinned him, right? He'd only know that if he knew about the pelt. And he gives Pharah way more money than it's worth. And we know Tamlin's big on just giving people a ton of money. OK, Tamlin's a mercenary. Tamlin shifted himself into the mercenary. That's my precard corner theory.

1:24:32 OK. But I agree with you. But I think there's something going on, and I want to talk about it when we talk about Lucian and Elaine, like I think there's something interesting about that particular mating bond, but I don't think it's because Tamlin is secretly Elaine's mate and secretly Lucian. Like we, we've seen too much of Lucian.

1:24:53 That's not. And we've seen too much of Tamlin. Also I I'm. Not I don't think it's crazy that we actually end up in a world where Elaine and Tamlin are mates and that part of Tamlin's redemption story is Elaine. I would hate it, but I. Would see her doing it. So then what's Lucian? What's Lucian?

1:25:12 Not Elaine's mate. Well, we've had a faked mating. Bond before, yeah, that's also where I went, but I didn't think that it would lead to Elaine and Tam, but. I'm I want to be so clear. I'm going to plant my flag in the sand. Right now I am team Elaine and Azriel. I want it so bad. I think they're great together, but is she going to give us 3 for three or would that be a little weird?

1:25:32 I don't know. To have the three Archron sisters with the three bat boys seems a little on the nose. I agree but I do think it's not talked about enough that mating bonds are not always right. Like that's why I said what I said about Reese and Favour is like, yes, Cassie and Nesta is shaping up nicely, but like Reese's parents were terrible for each other. So we're Tamlin.

1:25:55 Tamlin's parents were terrible for each other. Like the mating bond is not always right. Yeah, yeah. So we'll certainly talk more about that. I Yeah, we have a lot to talk about with mates in general. Yeah. All right. OK. What are you? What are you reading? I'm reading 1/4 frost and Starlight.

1:26:13 What are you reading? Lovely. I'm reading. I finished The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue. Nice. How was that? I would give it AB plus. I would give it AB Plus. The beginning and the end are wonderful. It definitely drags in the middle. It's a little repetitive and you're kind of like the story isn't moving forward.

1:26:31 Time's moving forward, but the story is not really moving forward. I cried a lot in the last 50 pages. I really liked it. I think you would like it. I think you should read it. It is a very emotional book. It gets very raw at the end and it really is about like legacy and the human condition and like what is life and what is the point of it all?

1:26:50 And it's about art. And as I mentioned, there is a character who's almost beat for beat. Reese. I would B plus I would say it's good. I need to I need to read something, but I unfortunately I think if if you're not new here, you probably have either know or have picked up already that I unfortunately work a lot. So I'm not.

1:27:10 Currently reading as much as I have read in the past, I'll put it that way. But I'm excited to like pick up regular books again. I think I told you I'm going to do a non fantasy. So one I need to I'm going to finish one dark window because I did get like far enough along that I'm like kind of hooked. So I need to finish it, but I need to finish our reread my reread first and then I'm going to read a non fantasy. I need to like remember.

1:27:32 What those are like, Yeah, this one's not really a fantasy. It takes place in the real world. There's a little bit of magic, but. Magic. OK, it's, there's no magic system. There's just there is a God who can grant A wish. That's the extent of it. Yeah. Got it. That's pretty much it. Cool. Cool. All right, I that's the end of our first deep dive on Acatar. I hope you guys enjoyed it.

1:27:56 I hope you knew what you were in for. If you're new here, I hope you enjoyed our particular brand of theorizing. We are on social media. We are Dragons in the details Pod on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. Our e-mail is dragonsinthedetailspod@gmail.com and we are on Discord at Dragons in the Details Pod server. Everything is LinkedIn our show notes and also LinkedIn our social media BIOS so you should be pretty easy to find us. Please write to us, we love hearing from you guys. Really brings a smile to our day. Ronnie and I both start our days drinking coffee and responding to comments from you guys, which is a really nice way to start the day.

1:28:32 Most of the time, not always. Most of the time it's great. Not always, but mostly no, I think. If you're actually listening to the podcast, we love talking. Yeah, we love you. It's the people who don't. It's the people who don't that we're like, not all the people who don't. A select few, yeah.

1:28:49 Yeah. But I think that's it. We will be back next week with more theories. Love you. Bye, listening. Love you. Bye. Thanks for listening.