How to Scale Inclusive Coding Education and Leadership Mindsets with Chinmay Lal

0:00 I think the biggest mistake is sort of pushing children into languages too early. So for example, if you don't know a language, for example, let's say German, if you don't know German and I give you a big text of German and I say translate this perfectly, then you wouldn't be able to do it. And it's not, it's not fair to push these, to push this on children. So if students don't understand why or how coding works, then they just start memorising stuff and they just start memorising the syntax and it doesn't work that way. You know, they all, they'll form the problems, they'll have to rely on tools to learn.

0:37 So we think that we need to build these these skills and these thinking 1st and then comes the language, then comes the coding. Before we dive back into today's conversation, I want to share something important. This episode includes a pay partnership with A Better Help, A platform designed makes touching therapy easier.

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1:57 Yourself Welcome to the Kingdoms Podcast, where we share the stories of extraordinary people and dissect hot, relevant topics that shape our world. From visionary leaders to trailblazing creatives, we uncover the mindset, strategy, and grit behind greatness. Whether it's business, culture or personal growth, we ask the real questions.

2:23 This isn't just conversation, it's transformation. The Kingdom's podcast, Your Next Breakthrough, starts here. Music licencing reimagined. We are live. Ladies and gentlemen, you once again welcome to the Kingdom's podcast and diary of the CFO. And today I've got with me fighting out of the world down under, fighting out of Brisbane, Australia. Mick Walker, Chin May law.

2:53 How are you, brother? Yeah, good. Thank you, bro. Thank you for having me. Wow, you, you're welcome. You know, you actually doing something that is very important to me and that is tech. You know, for anybody who is actually doing something amazing in the world of tech, like you're going to be my friend.

3:13 So see back how while I give you flowers. So today's conversation matches not because we were talking about code, but because we are talking about access, inclusion and leadership at the earliest stage of the future economy. My guest today is a Co founder who decided that technology education should not be intimidating, elitist or dependent on perfect infrastructure.

3:38 They're building offline first low stress inclusive pathways into build programming for the next generation while running a second venture helping e-commerce brands skill sustainably and profitably. This is leadership that blends mindsets, systems and execution. And that is exactly what we stand for on the Kingdom's podcast.

4:02 Please make welcome the Co founder of that is called lapse chimney law. You're welcome, brother. So let's talk about the origin story. You know, every every meaningful company begins with a moment of friction. So what problem did you guys personally experience that made you realise that traditional coding education was failing young learners, especially in low connectivity environments? So the main problem that we face was that when we were learning coding ourselves, we go from the traditional platform was Scratch, which is block based coding. And then we suddenly jump into Python. And what the problem we faced was that Scratch is so simple, like literally anyone could do it, kids do it, everyone, that's where everyone starts.

4:50 But jumping into traditional coding like Python or Java, it was very difficult for us. Like so many, so much syntax, so much nonsense. And another thing we realised was that if this was hard for us, then imagine how hard it would be for for people in marginalised societies such as like low income countries. We we thought that there needs to be a simpler way, there needs to be a more accessible way for people to access this, and there needs to be an easier way for people to move from learning code into the real world.

5:22 OK, well, interesting. So like you know, men platforms actually talk about learning to code, but a few of them talk about how children emotionally experience learning to code. So what did you observe about like the anxiety, the confidence, the overwhelm that shaped your first offline 1st and low stress approach? So what, what stood out to us was the like anxiety, in fact, so students weren't just like confused, but I feel like many of them are intimidated.

5:53 And even adults, like many people at my age as a teenager, people are intimidated by coding. It's like coding is positioned as something's hot, something that's hard. And something like it's built around being capable. If someone can code and they're very capable and that's why we built our tools.

6:11 So it's an offline 1st and low pressure progression into coding. We wanted students to feel safe, safe and comfortable experimenting and making mistakes rather than going into something something that seemed like a monster, you know, something that seems super hard. Wow, so from the blocks to the real code, you know, that is you guys actually, I would I say I appreciate what you're doing because it's it makes a lot of sense to start offline first before growing into the real coding experience.

6:47 So you deliberately breach that block based learning with real programming concepts. So why is this transition we have? Most educational systems fail and like what did you design differently to make a stick for young learners? So this transition fails mostly because the block coding hides the the difficulty and the complexity behind real coding. But when students move into real programming, it gets like exposed to them all at once.

7:17 So there's no, there's no real structured bridge between the two. So we designed that as an industry first traditional like, sorry, transitional layer. So we teach real programming, logic, data science and sequencing and computational thinking through our course, but without throwing it students with with difficulty and all the syntax. So we aim to build the skills and the mental models required for coding before they move on to to traditional coding languages.

7:48 So when they move on to stuff like Python or Java, it feels more familiar rather than something that's just being thrown at them. Well, you know, Speaking of inclusion, another thing I very much appreciate about your business model is, you know, you are actually transforming the lives of people, young people, giving them an opportunity to make a living for the rest of their lives.

8:16 And you know, it speaks to that Chinese proverb that says give amount of fish you fed him for a day, but teach a man to fish you fed him for a lifetime. You guys are basically feeding people for a lifetime and people in what I say remote locations that would typically wouldn't have had access to that information that would help them to make a living for, you know, their lifetimes, right? So but when people think about inclusion, people think about inclusion from a charity standpoint, right? Not as a peace, as a seizure.

8:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah. From from experience working with schools, NGOs, communities globally. Likewise inclusion actually a strategic and commercial advantage. So we, we definitely agree. So we agree that inclusion isn't like a charity, you know, it's, it's an expansion of our market. So the majority of students like around the world don't have perfect connectivity.

9:16 So for platforms like Scratch which are web-based, you know, these students weren't able so be able to access it all the time, won't be able to access it consistently. So if your product only works in these perfect and ideal conditions that are like maybe present in Australia, the USA and the UK, in these ideal conditions, I feel like you're limiting your impact and your business.

9:39 So I think designing for the accessibility, designing for accessibility like right from the start creates A resilience not only in your business model, but in your product. So builds it also builds trust in communities that are overlooked. So for example, we have a partners in Sri Lanka with the foundation of goodness.

9:58 These students, these students don't have access to to their own personal computers. They only have access to a computer lab and basically we provide our products for absolutely for free to them. So they're able to come into class, come into school and they're able to programme and learn and build the skills. Wow, so you know most of this text actually always assume an ideal environment, perfect Internet, perfect devices, perfect classrooms.

10:24 But like what minds achieved did you guys have to make to build products that work in conditions that are not ideal? So we, we had to make the assumption that like nothing was guaranteed. No Internet wasn't guaranteed. Maybe the devices. We can't, we can't like assume that everyone will have a MacBook Pro.

10:46 You know, we can't, we also can't assume that all the teachers are confident. And you know, we can't assume that all the teachers have skills that they're good enough to navigate through tech, they know coding. So that mindset forced us to build the product in a simple way. So we didn't build it around the perfect conditions that we experienced, but we we built it around simplicity. So if something required like constant connection, then we redesigned it.

11:15 If something required skilled or educated supervision, then we then we simplified it. So these constraints and these simplifications that we had to make like made our products stronger. Well, I, I love simplicity. You know, simplicity actually just makes things, or would I say accelerated. But a lot of times, you know, especially in the tech world, people think the more complex the solution is, the more valuable it is.

11:44 But I think the other way round, it's it's, it's the other way round for me. And you know, it's impressive to see you guys doing this at a very, very young age, right? So leadership at a young age, you're leading teams, you're having partnerships, you know, you're having real customers earlier than most founders would ever do.

12:06 So what has leadership taught you about responsibility, decision making and, you know, being under pressure sooner than you actually expected? Yeah. So I think when you're young, people test whether you like truly understand what you're doing. They test whether you know your numbers, your product and your mission. And I feel like some people automatically have the idea that because we're young, we don't know what we're doing. And maybe for the most part, maybe that is true, but we make up for the lack of experience with without drive, you know, without drive and our ambition to keep going. So the responsibility also like it hits differently when people, so we go from depending on our

12:52 parents to suddenly people depending on us, our customers, employees. Like you quickly learn that being consistent, being reliable, and being clear builds your credibility. Well, I love that, you know, because for me, myself growing up in Nigeria, like I sort of faced something similar, right? I come from a finance background and I used to be a lecturer for finance students.

13:19 And these are professional students. But being young, a lot of people thought this one doesn't know what he's doing. And it always made me to work twice as hard, right? Of course, you need to always prove yourself. How do you feel, you know, having to always prove yourself, having always to, to work twice as hard in order to give people that assurance that I know what I'm doing. Like how?

13:42 How does it feel for you? I think it motivates me to work harder. You know, it motivates me to show that you don't always have to have that years of experience behind you. I think it motivates me to work even harder to show, to prove myself than to prove to other people that we are capable. You know, like we have the vision, we have the drive, we have the motivation, and we we want to make real change. It helps me work harder, yeah.

14:12 Oh wow. So let's talk about the systems over the motivation. So sustainable impact requires systems, you know, not just inspiration, but what systems did you guys put in place to avoid burnout while scaling outreach, partnerships, and delivery? Yeah. So right from the start, early on, we tried to build a structured system.

14:37 We tried to build structured systems. So that would be without outreach, without CRM, without onboarding workflows. And we documented all these processes and we had, we had steps, we knew exactly what to do and when to do it. So that reduced like emotional decision making, which is something we definitely face at the start. And like when a client immediately fell out or they said, no, we don't want this, you know, we, we take right to the heart, feel like someone stabbed our chest. And instead of like feeling productive, we tried to measure our activities.

15:10 So we, we put everything into numbers, the amount of calls made, the follow-ups that we send, you know, and these are all in systems. We set reminders. Everything was in place to help us. And we use all the resources that we have available to us. You know, so we we learned that systems protect our energy and systems protect making emotional decisions.

15:35 You are actually in an industry that is the educational industry. So how do you think about pricing ethically while building a company that is designed to last? So we think education being the education area, it's very interesting because it requires a balance. So if the pricing is set too high, then access suffers. Not everyone's going to be able to access it, you know, But if it's too low, then our sustainability suffers, we're going to struggle, We won't be able to pay our employees. It's, it's, you have to have a right balance there. So we approach pricing with a tiered and flexible approach. So individuals, NGOs, institutions there, those are all just examples of our clients. So we design models that sort of

16:23 like allow access without weakening the business. So we definitely agree that longevity is important and it's part of our ethical impact. So we make we strike a balance and we flexible. You know that I think that's really important, especially in the education sector. Oh wow, so alongside being an ad tech, you've actually built and advised profit driven and e-commerce ventures.

16:49 So what lessons from performance LED commerce sharpened how you run this impact driven educational business? So I think my e-commerce ventures, I think they told me that metrics are important in e-commerce conversion rates. Follow the numbers. Follow the numbers in your. Product. Those are all yeah, they follow the numbers exactly, exactly like those sharpen your thinking, you know, in in education the accessibility and emotion matters, but numbers still matter.

17:21 And I think that background helped helped us both approach partnerships and pricing with with a good structures rather than rather. OK, interesting. You know, it's interesting how founders always talk about the vision. Or do you rarely ever talk about the doubts that creep in? So what moments actually seriously tested your belief in the mission?

17:46 And how did you recalibrate without losing momentum? So throughout throughout time with that is like there were moments where it didn't work, you know, especially at the start like our outreach didn't convert, people would like miss meetings and like the traction felt really slow. So this this sort of like recalibration that we had to do under this pressure, I guess that that made us return to the fundamentals. So our product quality directing our conversations and let make me a message really tight, you know doubt this doubt that customers have goes away when our execution improves. I love that.

18:34 And you know, in this podcast, this podcast is about the mindset, the skill sets and the tool sets, right? So let's talk about the skill sets and what skill sets actually matter the most. So if you strip away the hype, So what? What 3 skills have made the biggest difference in your execution so far?

18:55 Yeah. So I think execution compounds over time, you know, and from my background in e-commerce, it was very, I was just behind the laptop, you know, I was always behind the laptop just designing something, optimising stuff. It's not, I wasn't on meetings communicating, you know, but when I'm, when I joined, that is it's like, well, I think the number one skill that I had to learn was clear communication, being able to correctly articulate my thoughts and being able to articulate what our business is, what our business is doing for the client. And so definitely the number one skill that I learnt was like clear communication and being able to articulate myself. And I think what I put in #2 is

19:42 financial discipline. So money comes in and we get income, But being able to put that in the right place in order for us to grow, I think that's really important. So I think when money comes in, especially as a young person, it's, it's really, really tempting to go out and buy something, you know, like a new flashy car, like whatever the new iPhone. But I think reinvesting the money and I think putting it where it matters in order for us to grow, I think that's important because I think the inputs of what we put in is. Is like equal to our like controls what we get out, you know, like the effort we put in.

20:21 If we put more effort in, if we put more money in, then that grows exponentially. And I think the third one, the third most important seal I'd say is patience and being strategic with our patience. So we need to give clients enough time, enough time to think, enough time to talk to their, to their colleagues, enough time to make these decisions. But we can't let them wait too long. You know, we need to be on time with our follow-ups, but we also need to respect that space.

20:50 You know, as I said with, with pricing earlier, I think there's a good balance that needs to be there. And I said at the start, like execution compounds over time. So these things, they didn't come to me the first day I joined. I think it grows and we learn as we go. I think that's super important.

21:10 Amazing, amazing Actually, you are spot on. Now let's talk about this tool sets, right? That is the tool sets that skill access. So what tools, what frameworks or operating habits have you quietly, you know, utilised that have become like an unfair advantage for your team, for your business, you know, as our Co founders. Yeah, Yeah.

21:40 So I think, you know, we live, we live, we're in 2026, you know, anything we want is in our hands, you know, on our phone, on our laptop, it's right there. You know, it's most, most resources are free. And one big thing that I realised is that like our brain is for thinking and not remembering everything. You know, we, you should use our brain to Max capacity to think and articulate ourselves rather than try to remember and try to do everything ourselves, you know, especially when we have such great tools like on our in our hands. So I think a couple big tools that I'd say help that us grow is Notion.

22:17 I think Notion helped us structure of planning and it was at a good price point. You know, at the start, we obviously we were, we were burning money, we were investing our own money. And I think Notion was a good affordable place where we could put everything, you know, our customer resource management, everything was on Notion.

22:38 And honestly, it still is. And I think maybe #2 I'd say automation. So we live in the advent of AI. There's so many AI companies out there. You know, anything you want, if you search up, there'll be an AI company that that works for it. You know, So I think automating, especially, for example, our own boarding workflows.

23:01 So we will have our initial meeting with a client and then immediately after we just set the cascade off. And then emails will get sent. Everything will get sent automatically. And I think it's important that we document everything and that everything is structured and planned, rather than me trying to remember to send emails.

23:22 Maybe I'll have a couple clients. You know, I think when these systems live like outside your head, you scale faster. I totally agree with you, of course. For me, I believe Visa's progression in this age and time is highly, highly dependent on automation. It just lets things, would I say, be in a flow state because so for me, myself, like I've used a lot of automations and you know, having to operate a business like you are operating hands free, nothing feels better than that actually. Of course, for Mano Systems, we're human beings. We will forget certain things, right? But then, you know, when they're automated, it actually improves your reliability and consistency. And consistency in business is

24:10 what actually leads to reliability. And reliability in turn leads to building trust from your, your, your stakeholders. So let's talk about the future classroom. So looking ahead into the next 10 or five years, 5 to 10 years. So what must change and how we teach technology if we want the future leaders who are builders, not just consumers? Yeah.

24:37 So I'd say, you know, especially as we discussed before the advent of AI, many people think that like coding your programming is dead. You know, because of like there's so many this like for example, code AI, it's so useful, you know, like you just tell it whatever you want and it'll adjust. It will make write it almost perfectly. Like if you write your own code and then there's a mistake that you can't find, you put it into AI, it'll find it for you immediately.

25:03 But we think that like we need to teach this thinking skill before programming languages. So obviously programming is still required for AI and teaching these skills are super important as we believe that students should like understand the logics, systems and the problems behind coding. So we think that the future belongs to builders who like who more understand structures and more understand what goes into programming rather than those who just consume tools such as just code vibe coding with AI. OK, So what is your advice to parents and educators that are listening to us right now?

25:48 What is the single biggest mistake to make when introducing children to learning technology? So I think the biggest mistake is sort of pushing children into languages too early. So for example, if you don't know a language, for example, let's say German, if you don't know German and I give you a big text of German, I say translate this perfectly, then you wouldn't be able to do it, you know, and it's not, it's not fair to push these, to push this on children.

26:20 So we think of it the same way with so if students don't understand why or how coding works, then they just start memorising stuff and they just start memorising the syntax and it doesn't work that way. You know, they all, they'll form the problems, they'll have to rely on tools to learn. So we think that we need to build these these skills and these thinking 1st and then comes the language, then comes the coding. OK.

26:47 So when it's all said and done, you know, when you zoom out beyond the revenue and the growth, what legacy do you want that is called labs to represent in the lives of the students that you serve? I want want that as to represent confidence, you know, not just confidence in let's say code writing, but confidence in thinking clearly, solving problems or like approaching complexity without fear.

27:18 So I think too many students grow up believing that technology or coding is something only gifted people understand or like it's something that's reserved for those with like perfect schools, fast Internet or like the best devices, you know. But we want to dismantle that belief. So we think like that is isn't about like producing programmers overnight.

27:42 It's not about making, it's not about creating the next, the next like big thing, you know? It's about helping students realise that like complex systems can be broken down and really understood step by step. For example, when a student in a rural classroom or a community centre or a low resource environment completes one of the modules and actually starts to understand why an algorithm, let's say they actually start to understand why an algorithm works.

28:14 Like something shifts inside, they stop seeing like technology as intimidating and they start seeing it as accessible. So if we do this the right way, the legacy won't just be students who can code. It'll be students who can think and say, like, I can figure this out and students that have a mindset that extends far beyond technology into entrepreneurship, leadership, science, and just life in general. Like that's the type of confidence I want that is to stand for.

28:44 Amazing, amazing. Wow. It's actually been really great speaking with you today. And there's something that I always say, any type of person shares the time with you, they share the life with you. Of course, the SI unit for measuring life is time. Well, before you go, I'm going to put you through the Ring of Fire. That is five quick fire round questions. So just tell me the very first thing that comes to your mind. Just simple answers only.

29:10 Are you ready to rumble? Yep. What is 1 belief Belief about education that you have completely unlearned? So I think I unlearned that, that that harder automatically means you're like, that you're better learning, you know, doing something hard doesn't mean that you're learning. You're learning itself.

29:35 You know, like I think that's one thing that I've unlearned. OK, interesting. So our number 2 is what is the hardest leadership lesson? With pricing earlier, I think there's a good balance that needs to be there. And I said at the start, like execution compounds over time. So these things, they didn't come to me the first day I joined. I think it grows and we learn as we go. You know, I think that's super important. Yeah, yeah.

30:02 So I think, you know, we live, we live, we're in 2026, you know, anything we want is in our hands, you know, on our phone, on our laptop, it's right there. You know, it's most, most resources are free. And one big thing that I realised is that like our brain is for thinking and not remembering everything. You know, we, you should use our brain, it's Max capacity to think and articulate ourselves rather than try to remember and try to do everything ourselves, you know, especially when we have such great tools like on our in our hands. So I think a couple big tools that I'd say help that us grow is Notion.

30:40 I think Notion helped us structure planning and it was at a good price point. You know, at the start, we obviously we were, we were burning money, we were investing our own money. And I think Notion was a good affordable place where we could put everything, you know, our customer resource management, everything was on Notion.

31:01 And honestly, it still is. And I think maybe #2 I'd say automation. So we live in the advent of AI. There's so many AI companies out there. You know, anything you want, if you search up, there'll be an AI company that works for it, you know, So I think automating especially for example, our own boarding workflows.

31:22 So we will have our initial meeting with the client and then immediately after we just set the cascade off and then emails will get sent. Everything will get sent automatically. And I think it's important that we document everything and that everything is structured and planned rather than me trying to remember to send emails.

31:43 Maybe I'll have a couple clients. You know, I think when these systems live like, outside your head, you scale faster. Yeah. So I'd say, you know, especially as we discussed before the advent of AI, many people think that like coding your programming is dead, you know, because of like there's so many, like for example, code AI, it's so useful, you know, like you just tell it whatever you want and it'll adjust.

32:09 It'll make write it almost perfectly. Like if you write your own code and then there's a mistake that you can't find, you put it in the AI, it'll find it for you immediately. But we think that like we need to teach this thinking skill before programming languages. So obviously programming is still required for AI and teaching these skills are super important as we believe that students should like understand the logics, systems and the problems behind coding. So we think that the future belongs to builders who like who more understand structures and more understand what goes into programming rather than those who just consume tools such as just code vibe coding with AI.

32:56 So I think the biggest mistake is sort of pushing children into languages too early. So for example, if you don't know a language, for example, let's say German, if you don't know German and I give you a big text of German and I say translate this perfectly, then you wouldn't be able to do it, you know, and it's not, it's not fair to push these, to push this on children. So we think of it the same way with coding. So if students don't understand why or how coding works, then they just start memorising stuff and they just start memorising the syntax and it doesn't work that way. You know, they all they'll form the problems, they'll have to rely on tools to learn.

33:41 So we think that we need to build these these skills and these thinking 1st and then comes the language, then comes the coding. I want some Dallas to represent confidence, you know, not just confidence in, let's say code writing, but confidence in thinking clearly, solving problems or like approaching complexity without fear.

34:06 So I think too many students grow up believing that technology or coding is something only gifted people understand or like it's something that's reserved for those with like perfect schools, fast Internet or like the best devices, you know, and but we want to dismantle that belief. So we think like that is isn't about like producing programmers overnight. It's not about making, it's not about creating the next, the next like big thing, you know.

34:37 It's about helping students realise that like complex systems can be broken down and really understood step by step. For example, when a student in a rural classroom or a community centre or a low resource environment completes one of the modules and actually starts to understand why, like an algorithm, let's say, they actually start to understand why an algorithm works. Like something shifts inside.

35:04 They stop seeing like technology as intimidating and they start seeing it as accessible. So if we do this the right way, the legacy won't just be students who can code, It'll be students who can think and say, like, I can figure this out and students that have a mindset that extends far beyond technology into entrepreneurship, leadership, science, and just life in general.

35:29 Like that's the type of confidence I want that is to stand for well. OK, let's go through the quick fire round questions. Number one, believe about education that you have completely unlearned. I'd say for like that working, doing something difficult or struggling means learning. So I think learning isn't about pressure, but it's more about like how clear you understand things and your momentum. OK, for me, I believe learning should actually be fun. So #2 what is the hardest leadership lesson that you did not expect to learn these early?

36:08 I'd say that not everyone moves at the same speed of you. Not everyone moves at the same pace, and that's perfectly OK. Absolutely, absolutely. So what is 1 Habit that protects your focus as our founder? Say, starting every day with one set outcome and one thing that must be achieved, and everything else is secondary to that. Fantastic #4 What is 1 tool that you would refuse to give up? I'd say structured planning and structured systems. So without them, we lose our momentum. Interesting, you know, for me the most basic and my favourite tool is a calendar tool.

36:47 That is, that is the chief of structure. Like yeah, calendar tool. Come on. He just, he just helps is the foundation. So #5 #5 absolutely #5 is what is 1 sentence you want every young learner to believe about themselves. I'd say you're you are more. You're capable of understanding more than you think. Amazing.

37:12 So one more time, love and respect to you for your time today. Thank you very much. This conversation has not been about coding. It has been about who gets access to the future and who gets left behind. So and of course, who steps up early enough to change the system and that is leadership in motion. So to the audience, I would say again, always believe in yourselves, conceive, believe, strive to thrive and achieve. Always go for something in your lives. And you know, definitely till I come your way next time, you know, keep winning.

37:50 And guys, come on, we're doing a great job. You can join the YouTube channel, join as a member on the YouTube channel and of course, get early access to all of you know, the publications and of course, you're able to watch without odds. So goodbye. Wow, finally.