PTSD and Moral Injury Explained for Leaders Who Carry the Cost of Command w/ Dr. Larry Brant

0:00 The Buccaneers score, the cannons go off behind me. I immediately upon hearing those cannons felt like I was back in Afghanistan. Just immediately I grabbed my wife, threw her to the ground, covered her and then realised I was back in the stadium. I look up at my friend brother and he and his girlfriend looked at me like this and so I thought well the only way out of this is with the truth.

0:32 Before we dive back into today's conversation, I want to share something important. This episode includes a pay partnership with Better Help, a platform designed to make starting therapy easier. I know from my own journey as a leader and entrepreneur that life can sometimes feel overwhelming. There are seasons, severe stress, uncertainty, and pressure build up, and you need a safe space to process it all that superior therapy comes in.

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1:37 Once again, this is a paid partnership with Better Help, and I encourage you to take that first step. If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best investment you can make ease in yourself. Welcome to the King Dems podcast, where we share the stories of extraordinary people and dissect hot, relevant topics that shape our world. From visionary leaders to trailblazing creatives, we uncover the mindset, strategy, and grit behind greatness. Whether it's business, culture, or personal growth, we ask the real questions.

2:10 This isn't just conversation, it's transformation. The Kingdom's podcast, Your Next Breakthrough, starts here. Music licencing reimagined. We are live ladies and gentlemen, we once again welcome to the King James podcast and today I've got with me a cheapo VIP watching out of California, United States of America make welcome Laurie brand.

2:41 How are you, Doctor Larry? I am doing well because I hope everyone out there is doing well and how are you doing my friend? Doing amazing, amazing, super fantastic. Wow. So it's time to give you a proper introduction, give you your flowers. Wow. So Doctor Larry Brand, thank you for staying. Yes to this moment.

3:05 You are not just a meeting chaplain. You are not just a veteran. You are not just a minister. You're someone who has been chosen to stand in the space. We have broken Nets meets MENA 16 years, 7 as a Navy chaplain, 25 years of password leadership, 4th certified in chaplain. Seen a trusting force on PTSD and viral injury.

3:29 A guide for people who feel disconnected from life, from identity and from both. Your work centres on restoring people to a life with the buildings is still worth leaving. That is sacred work, that is leadership and that is legacy. Doctor Larry Grant, welcome to the Kingdom's podcast. Thank you very much.

3:49 It's an honour to be, yeah. You're welcome, Sir, before the titles and of course, the credentials. Were you before the uniform and before the pulpit? I was just a kid from Southern Illinois in America, you know, grew up in Southern Illinois, much like everybody, you know, just living life, going to school and just enjoying life.

4:14 And that's, that's kind of who I was raised by my mom and my dad. My dad was a World War 2 veteran. And that's, that's just me. And then God kind of got a hold of me and and brought me on this journey that we are at today. So I have a moment in your life. Did you realise that you were actually called self people in the darkest moment?

4:36 I think when when I was in high school, my church had youth missions, ministry opportunities where we would go to different places and serve people and seek to spread the love of Christ. And I think it was, it was during those missions, opportunities that God called me to serve others. Wow to end the missions. But was it like a particular experience? A humble man in that point of time that made you realise this is what my life work is better being. Yeah, actually I remember 1 particular mission trip that we went on.

5:17 We went to an Indian Reservation in South Dakota and LED vacation Bible school for a mission church on the reservation. And just the interaction with the Native Americans and how much they appreciated what we did, that we were coming there to, to not only serve them, but also to serve their children.

5:40 And just the the gratefulness that they had for that made a deep impression on me. And I think that's a big thing that God used to call me into his service. Now many people whenever they hear the term PTSD, they don't really understand it. But in simple language like how do you explain PTSD to someone that is listening to us right now? I would say that PTSD comes from a traumatic event that happens to you.

6:14 Your life may be in danger or you just may be verbally abused over and over and over and over and it just breaks you down emotionally, sometimes physically it breaks you down and you have trouble relating. You have high, you know, you go into high anxiety and you're, you go into where you're, you're constantly, you're in fear, maybe fear for your life, fear for something that's going to happen to you.

6:43 It could be emotions like that. As someone who who has PTSD from my combat experiences as a Navy chaplain, for me, it's a loss of safety after my combat experience and what happened to me there. When I came back home, there was no place that I felt safe. And so when I when I go to a restaurant, I have to sit with my back to the wall, monitor all of the exits. If I have my back to anyone, I'm very nervous because in the situation I was in in combat, you never knew who was your friend and who was your enemy because the enemy didn't wear a uniform.

7:20 And you know, for instance, if I'm, I'm doing better than I used to because I decided, I decided to go get help and. But. If I'm yes, I I see a counsellor about every every three weeks. I see a counsellor because the mental health health folks are just overwhelmed and so you just aren't able to get a, an appointment every every week.

7:48 So I see her about every three weeks and, and talking about how I feel about things really helps for myself. If I'm jogging on a trail and someone suddenly comes up behind me that startles me and I have to step off the trail, kind of regroup and then get back on. That's just a a few of the things as far as PTSD is to me. You know, PTSD is actually very, very real being. You know, I think this is one of the reasons why I'm really grateful for the kind of work that I do and the kind of partners, the kind of brands that I've partnered with me. So I'll very fast paid partner on this. Broadcasters get to help.

8:25 So Better Help is the world's leading online therapy brand and I love the way they make mental health help accessible via mobiles, via devices, right? And a lot of people do not see the importance of working on their mental health. So a lot of people go to the team to work on their physical health. Or how about your mental health, which is actually even more important.

8:52 So I'd like for you to emphasise or to shed more light on the importance of people generally listening to us taking the initiative to work on the mental health, you know, especially with the likes of better health that is easily accessible. Yeah, absolutely. For myself, there was years of denial that I had PTSD and then when I became a hospital chaplain for the Navy, I then I started to realise that I had it. But I really struggled with going to my colleagues for help, somebody that I was supposed to be their chaplain and, but yet I wanted, I, I needed help too.

9:41 And but finally, I just decided, you know what, just as you said, just like going to the gym and doing what you need to do for your body, I finally decided that I need to go and do what I needed to do for my mind. Because some of the things, you know, with that, you know, with that loss of safety comes that hyper vigilance. And that's just exhausting, you know, constantly being on guard, it's just exhausting.

10:15 I think I lead to hyperventilation. Let's talk about moral injury. That is actually less talked about, but it's a very, very damaging like, what is moral injury? And like, why is it often more painful than trauma itself? So Moral injury, as we talked about PTSD is a traumatic event that happens to you.

10:38 Moral injury is kind of the other side of the coin. Moral injury is when you do something, or maybe you're ordered to do something by someone in authority over you. Or maybe you fail to present, fail to, and the end result of what happens just goes against everything that you believe in morally, ethically, emotionally, especially spiritually, and that that just absolutely breaks you down.

11:08 It weighs you down with guilt and with shame. And the individual with moral injury many times goes on to believe that they are just unlovable and unforgivable because of what they have done. Some even believe that they have become infected with evil because of the actions that they took that they feel like are just unforgivable.

11:33 And in many cases, they will just step back from everything in their life. They will step back from their faith. They will step back from their family. They will step back from their friends, not because those people irritate them, but because of the actions they have taken that broke them in the first place. They are afraid that they will infect those people with their vadnais, with their evil.

12:04 And so they step back and isolate themselves, quite often self medicating, and in some cases that self medication even goes to the point of suicide because they just feel like they're unfixable and they feel like it's better for everyone else if they just take themselves out of the picture permanently. So what are the key differences between PTSD and moral injury that most people don't understand? The key difference obviously is, you know, PTSD is something that happens to you.

12:38 Moral injury is something that you do. But in addition to that is the guilt and the shame that, that hammering of themselves of the guilt and the shame and that feeling that I can't ever be a good person again because of what I've done. You know, God can forgive you, but because of what I've done, I'm unforgivable.

13:02 I, I am not lovable Forgiveness, God's forgiveness is for everybody but me because of what I've done. They just, then they, they also quite often in many people with moral injury, PTSD is there as well. And so with that, they may have had a traumatic event where something happens to them, but then in reaction to that traumatic event, they then do something that goes completely against everything that they believe in and they they emotionally break themselves is what happens.

13:44 So if you could imagine the, you know, and this is just one example, if you can imagine a soldier in Iraq or someone's just pinging the tar out of me, if you can just imagine a soldier in Iraq and he has a bomb that goes off near him, that's a traumatic event. Then he sees someone with a suicide vest, while his reaction is going to have to be I can't let that person get close enough to me to detonate, to hurt myself, to hurt other people. So then he shoots and kills that individual, finding out later that it was actually a pregnant woman with a suicide vest. So now he's dealing with the thought of taking another life, even though he had a choice between bad and worse. And then he's also grappling

14:36 with the idea that he also killed that unborn life. And he feels like at that point, he feels like I'm just a terrible, horrible person because of what I've done, even though his choices were between bad and worse. Or you look at someone, say a medical provider at the height of COVID. And you know, we, we all saw those articles where there wasn't enough ventilators to go around during the height of COVID.

15:06 And So what about that medical provider where he has to make that decision? This person gets to go on the ventilator. This person has to die because we just simply don't have enough ventilators to go around. And then they step back and I went into medicine to help people. I didn't go into medicine to decide who lives and who dies. And then they, they second guess everything they do from that point forward or the first responder who answers a call for an emergency.

15:42 And then afterward, if the person you know, if, if there's an unsuccessful resolution to that issue, then they start second guessing themselves saying, well, here I trained to be a first responder, but I'm not good. I'm a I'm not a good person doing this. Do I really help people and they just start second guessing themselves and thinking that they're not only a bad first responder, but maybe a bad person to begin with as well.

16:11 And so doing that, it can even go into the world of we have people who have PTSD from from sexual assault. But what happens to that individual if after the sexual assault, they have the PTSD from the sexual assault, But then they begin to believe and sometimes this is what the perpetrator says to them. You know, if you were in a certain way, I wouldn't have had to do this to you or you realise that that what I did to you was all your fault, even though we know that is not the case. But sometimes, and for some people, they get into believe that the assault was their fault and that they did bring it on themselves.

16:54 And then they start thinking of themselves less and less of a person and they go deeper and deeper into their shell because they're afraid if they come out, they could get attacked again. But they also may be afraid that if they come out of their shell that they're going to be encouraging others to behave in a way that somehow they get attacked.

17:19 I know that that may seem crazy, but I have come across individuals like that and it's hard to see somebody who thinks so little of themself because of an action that has happened to them and then maybe a reaction that they had in response. And, you know, one really big tiring thing about a lot of people in this bracket is their unwillingness to speak up to at least talk about it, right? Because I say a problem shared is a problem. How so?

17:56 I have had the privilege of encountering, you know, a good number of individuals like this, but they are typically unwilling to speak up. And also, I think society has a way of shaming people or stigmatising people, right, that have gone through unfortunate incidences in life. But people just need to find a way to learn how to speak up.

18:22 So what? What's your word to people who are suffering in silence today? My word is find someone. Actually I would say find two people. One go to God. Go, go to God in your hurt and your pain. He will listen to you first, Peter 57 says. Cast your cares upon me, for I care for you. God is literally begging for you to to just drop all of your hurt and pain at his doorstep.

18:54 Secondly, what I would encourage you to do is to find a safe place that may be an online community, maybe an online veterans group and online first responders group and online sexual trauma group or, or something that's in your community and find a safe place where you can begin to Share your story. We do here at 29 Palms.

19:24 We have a PTSD and moral injury group that we have here on base that I started about four years ago. And in that group, we'll, we'll take them through a course of about of eight weeks. This was originally a course designed by the Veterans Administration by a clinical psychiatrist and a VA chaplain. And then with their permission, I took it and tweaked it a little bit for active duty.

19:51 And then we do it here on base. I lead it with a mental health professional. And we'll have a small group of about four to six people and we will meet for 8 weeks. And it's interesting how guarded everyone is the first week that we come together. And then we'll have we'll have someone share their story. And then it's like once one person is willing to share their story in the group, the floodgates just open. And then everyone is is sharing their story. And the coolest thing happens is that they begin to realise I'm not alone in this struggle.

20:32 I'm not alone in this fight. There are other people just like me and they don't judge me when I share with them. And that's what I mean by finding a safe place to be able to Share your story. And that sharing of that story, just as you said, you know, a problem shared is halved. And then it that pain doesn't become something that they continue to bear alone, that that hurt, that pain, that story is actually lifted and shared by the group and the bond.

21:08 That you bring it up, the power of the group, I really appreciate it. Yeah, the the power of the group is huge. And what we have seen is that not only does the group become important, they start to stay connected to each other even outside of our group time. And then if something happens during the course of their week, they will reach out to the members of the group for support and encouragement. And even after the 8 weeks are over, what we have seen is that the groups tend to stay together and also will continue to support and encourage and lift each other up, just adding to the recur to their recovery and restoration from PTSD and moral injury.

21:57 Absolutely amazing. Just to touching that Better Help also has groups or the Better Help app. And one more thing, John. The example of what I'm talking. Yeah, they have John Alene as well. So I'd like for you to talk about John Alene. Like how does John Alene help the process of recovery? Well, for us, we kind of do a version of journaling.

22:22 And when I'm working with an individual with PTSD and moral injury or whether I'm working with someone with a group, we do a version of journaling called the two way Prayer log. And So what we do is we ask the individual actually when we're in the group, we don't ask. We tell if it's a homework assignment, but we'll say OK, every morning, every evening, whichever works for you, sit down and and write out a prayer.

22:51 Write out a write out a prayer about the day's events. Write out a prayer about how you're feeling, what's going on with you, what has happened in the day, where, where you think your future's going, whatever you want to write about, write out that prayer. And that's Part 1. Part 2 is that after you have written out the prayer, then step back and answer the prayer from what you think God's perspective would be. How do you think God would answer that prayer? And then write that in your journal as well. And what that does is that helps the person to take a step back and look at their look at what's going on with them from a different perspective of their own. And so they begin to see things

23:47 from that other perspective. And you know how sometimes a person with PTSD and moral injury, either one, this can happen, the person can begin to get tunnel vision, you know, where they can only see about this much. Kind of like me, when I lost safety, I had the tunnel vision of never feeling safe. And it's sometimes still do, but by doing that two way prayer log, similar to the journaling that your organisation encourages people to do, the putting it on the page or typing it into the screen, that helps put their thoughts into organised words rather than sometimes those juggled up feelings and emotions.

24:30 And then when you take that further step back and you answer it, or you, you seek to answer it from what you think God's perspective would be, you're looking at it outside of yourself. And sometimes that can give you a better perspective of what you're facing. Because when we get that tunnel vision, we get that anxiety and then we can't seem to get out of that spiral.

24:58 But when you step back for that second part of that prayer log and answer things from God's perspective, that forces you to to stop that spiral and to look at things from a bigger godly perspective. Interesting, so how do you say trauma reshapes a person's identity, not just their emotions? Oh yeah, trauma can drastically reshape someone's identity. Think about the sexual assault victim. Trauma can reshape their identity into to where they always, they always think of themselves as a victim and a target from that point forward.

25:42 For me, the trauma of the firefights I was in that and that lack of feeling safe, that trauma reshaped my identity as someone who I felt always targeted, always. I began to believe that someone was always out to get me because of that experience of being targeted in country, because one thing that happened to me was I was with my Marines and we had the Marines had found a cache of weapons and some documents.

26:14 And as the translator was going through the documents, all of a sudden the translator turns to me and says, chaps, you're in here. And I said, what do you mean? And, and the translator said, well, in these documents, one of the things that they're saying is that if you kill the Marines religious leader, you'll break their spirit.

26:39 And so I was like, wow. So they're going at, you know, they're intentionally going after chaplains and their assistants. And he goes, no, it's more than that. They have your physical description in this document. So in that document saying kill this person was my description and my assistant's description saying if you kill these two people, the religious leader and his helper, then you will break the spirit of the Marines in this area. Now, actually, truly, if they had done that, what they would have done was just make the Marines meaner. I mean, that's the truth.

27:24 You, you kill, you kill a Marines chap, they're going to go. They're going to go for blood even harder. But that experience of, of having my physical description and the words kill this guy took away my safety and from that trauma reshaped my identity into someone. I felt like I always had a target on my back from that point.

27:51 Forward and I never. Especially it was, yeah, it was a few years before I could even go to a large event. You know, it was a it was a few years before I could go to a baseball or football game. And then one example, I'll just tell you this, boy, I'm really exposing myself here. That that was in 2011. In 2015.

28:19 Now where was it? No, it was fall of 2014. I was in Tampa, FL and the the Coast Guard uses Navy chaplains, just the US Coast Guard uses Navy chaplains. So we bounce back and forth between the Navy, the Marines, and the Coast Guard and with whatever service we're with, that's the uniform we wear. So I've got a closet full of uniforms. I got Navy uniforms, Marine Corps uniforms, Coast Guard. When we move, the movers go.

28:48 You have more clothes than your wife, but I still don't think that's possible. One of my best friends in the Navy, his brother at that time was working for the football team, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. And so we were, he had gotten us a couple free tickets for a preseason game. And so the stadium is beautiful. And if you've ever been there at one end of the stadium, because they're the Buccaneers, at one end of the stadium is a life-size pirate ship.

29:20 But what I didn't know was on the ship they have working cannons, and when the bucks score, they fire the cannons. And so my seats or my wife and my seats were right in front of the pirate ship. And so my friend's brother and his girlfriend come over. They're talking to us. So I'm not paying attention to the game.

29:49 They're talking to us, and all of a sudden the Buccaneers score, the cannons go off behind me. I, immediately upon hearing those cannons, felt like I was back in Afghanistan. Just immediately I grabbed my wife, threw her to the ground, covered her and then realised I was back in the stadium. I look up at my friend brother and he and his girlfriend were looking at me like this.

30:25 And so I thought, well, the only way out of this is with the truth. I just said, man, I'm just so sorry. When I heard those cannons, I flashed, and I reacted without even thinking, you know, And my wife saw the floor of the state in between the seats, you know, saying get me up, get me up. And bless her heart, she's still with me to this day. But that's just one example of how trauma can reshape you. You know, you've actually spoken about addressing mental health issues even in the church, in society at large, right? So what does the church and the society generally need to wake up to when it comes to mental health, When it comes to PTSD, When it comes to moral injury?

31:15 I think the church, the church needs to educate itself. As I've, as I've travelled this country, even as I've travelled the world on deployments, I've talked to a lot of pastors in a lot of different places. What I have seen is if you ask a pastor what's PTSD, more often than not, they can give you a pretty good description of what that is because they, they have recognised that they've, they've educated themselves, they've started working with church members who have that.

31:45 But then when you ask a pastor or a ministry leader, hey, can you tell me what moral injury is? Usually they will just go, They'll either give you a look like a deer in headlights, or they will just look at you and say, you know, I have absolutely no idea. But then when you say what moral injury is, it's when a person transgresses and does something against everything that they believe in and it is broken. Then then usually that that pastor will step back and go, I know exactly who that's describing. And then they can tell you that there's a per, you know, probably 1-2, maybe even more individuals within their congregation that that completely describes. And there go, I've been looking

32:31 at them all wrong. And I think that's what happens in the churches. We have these people in our pews, or maybe they've disappeared from the pews and their families are there and we mistake their pain and their hurt for something else. We may mistake it for backsliding. We may mistake it for burnout.

32:51 We may mistake it for who knows? But then then another thing that happens is the person who, who comes forward, you know, in our tradition, at the end of the service, we'll have a time where people can respond to the message and, and if God is speaking to them, what can you know, how, how does God want them to respond? And sometimes they will come forward. And because the pastor is not educated on what moral injury is, the pastor might give them a brief scripture, pray with them briefly, pat them on the back and kind of say you're good to go and they're not good to go.

33:32 What that person needs is a godly, safe place, someone who can sit with them in their pain and then help them begin to visualise that there is a path to restoration. And that's with what I'm doing right now. That's the message I'm trying to get out to these ministry leaders and these churches is that we need to to not offer quick fixes, but we need to sit with folks in their pain and show them that that path to restoration to where if they think they're broken by these things, there's a path that they can come back from. Speaking of a path to restoration, Ephesians chapter 4 verse 12 says for the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ. That is what the church is

34:22 actually for. So for me to you again, it's a very, very big thank you. We've already beat our type limit. I will take you through the Pacific Ring of Fire. The five person big fire round questions. Are you ready to rumble? Hey. Let's go quick. Answers only #1 What is one word that describes hope?

34:48 Jesus. Oh nice, fantastic #2 what is one book that has changed how you see healing? Achilles in Vietnam. Interesting. So what is 1 habit that protects your own mental health? Spending time with my wife. Interesting. God bless her. What is something people misunderstand about chaplains? Something that they misunderstand about chaplains. Yes.

35:17 Is that what you said? Exactly. They think that we cost. They think that we constantly compromise our faith, which we don't. OK, out of press 55, the last one, give me 3 words that describe your life's Misha, your legacy. 3 words. Hope, resilience and restoration. Amazing. So that's something I always see on the forecast whenever a person shares the time with you this year, they're likely to be the course.

35:49 The SI you do for measuring life is time. So Doctor Larry, thank you very much for the work that you do in silence and in the presence of people. And of course, in truth, I always say this, that an attitude of gratitude is good attitude. So thank you for standing with the wounded, with the hurts, with the sick. And of course, thank you for restoring dignity via the world has forgotten it.

36:19 So for the listeners who want to learn more about lives, work and resources, you can actually visit ithinkrestoringthebrooklyn.com. Is that correct? Restoringthebroken.com actually it and massive respect. Restoringthebroken.com was taken, so it's Restoring the Dash broken.com or you can look me up on Amazon.

36:44 My book is coming out very soon and it's called Restoring the Broken, but you could type that into Amazon as well and you will see that come up and it will be available on Kindle paperback and hardback. Are amazing, so we will have that in the description section. So before you leave, you want to give a shout out to anyone before you.

37:04 Who are you giving a shout out to? Just shout out to my excuse me, my lovely bride Tammy, to my kids, and especially to my Marine sailors and Coast Guardsmen that I've had the privilege to know over the last 16 years. God bless you. Amazing. God bless Doctor Larry, God bless the Kingdom's podcast, God bless the listeners.

37:27 Guys, if you are listening to me, do not forget. Always go for something in your lives, conceive, believe, strive to thrive and achieve. For me, it's goodbye. And of course, from Doctor Larry Brad, it is goodbye. All right. Thank you.