Kat's story - weaning a younger toddler and post-weaning 'blues'

This transcript is AI generated. [00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. Today I'm talking to Kat. That's Kat Kennedy, who is in Bedford in England, and we're gonna be talking about her journey breastfeeding her son Isaac, and particularly the ending of that journey. And as you'll have seen from the title, particularly what can happen to some people when they do end breastfeeding, what we might call weaning blues. How do you feel about that phrase, weaning blues, Kat? Do you feel that's a kind of a, a bit of a dismissive phrase? What do you like to say? [00:01:13] Kat: I'd say it's probably about right, to be honest, because I wouldn't say it's as bad as the start of postpartum period. Um, but I would say it's definitely, you start to feel those sort of thoughts again. You start to feel those sort of feelings again as you would at the beginning. So I'd kind of say I never really liked the stage, the phase baby blues. I would say that's more a little bit, you know, um, a lot deeper than that. Whereas this, I would definitely say it's more weaning blues. Yeah. [00:01:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. So for anyone, obviously we're gonna talk about your personal experience, but before we do that, just a general message for anyone who's not familiar with this. I think a lot of people don't realize this is a thing. I think a lot of people don't understand that when you end breastfeeding, for some people you can be hit quite hard with that hormonal shift, and it can be a depressive period. It can also be irritability. Um, it can also be not feeling like yourself in lots of different ways. [00:02:09] Kat: Yes. [00:02:10] Emma Pickett: And I guess a little bit of a kind of PSA at the beginning to say that if you are post weaning and you are feeling really low, obviously other things can cause that too. So if you need to get professional help, um, you know, I have... Don't even know the details of, of exactly what happened on your journey, Kat, but I think one thing we'd want to say is if someone's feeling low, you shouldn't necessarily think, "Oh, it's to do with breastfeeding, so therefore I don't need any help, therefore I've just gotta power through." There will always be professionals out there who will support you. Um, if you're really feeling low or feeling unsafe, it's important to talk to your doctor and, and get some extra help. Okay, let's talk about you. Tell me about your family. [00:02:45] Kat: Okay. So there is me, my partner Sam, and Isaac. He is now 20 months old. Uh, we stopped breastfeeding when he was about- 14 months old, 16 months old. So it's been a little while since, so I'm kind of over that sort of period. I've never really been that much of an internal person, I would say. But when I found out that I was pregnant, it was just, yeah, I knew it was just, it was gonna happen and things like that, and I was super, super happy. I've always wanted to breastfeed, um, from when I found out. I was always quite laid back about it as well, like if it wasn't gonna happen, that's absolutely fine as well. But I was quite adamant that I, I did at least want to try it. [00:03:29] Emma Pickett: Where do you think that came from? Because you'd had other family members or friends had breastfed, where do you think that kind of, uh, that focus on needing breastfeeding to happen or wanting to breastfeed came from? [00:03:37] Kat: I think it's because I'd seen some of my friends breastfeed, and I could see that bond that they had with their child, and also I was breastfed as well. Um, so I think that has something to do with, uh, with it as well, definitely. [00:03:50] Emma Pickett: Do you know how or how old you were when you stopped? [00:03:52] Kat: I think I was two. [00:03:54] Emma Pickett: Oh, excellent. I love to talk to people who have been breastfed beyond babyhood. That's excellent. You look normal. You don't have horns. Um, you're not drooling. [00:04:01] Kat: I don't, no. [00:04:01] Emma Pickett: You, you look like a normal functioning human being. [00:04:04] Kat: I have 10 hands and 10 toes. [00:04:06] Emma Pickett: Oh, you have to have 10 hands. That's not helping the cause. Um [00:04:08] Kat: Sorry, 10 fingers. [00:04:11] Emma Pickett: I, I knew what you meant. You were showing me your fingers, but they won't come up on a podcast. So, so some people say, "Oh gosh, do you, do ... You know, you're two, would you remember breastfeeding?" I'm, I'm guessing you don't 'cause not many people remember- No ... when they're two. [00:04:23] Kat: Not at all, no. [00:04:24] Emma Pickett: And did you have siblings that breastfed as well? [00:04:26] Kat: No, it was just me. [00:04:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. So good on your mum. I mean, you, you look a lot younger than me, so this isn't so long ago. Um, this is when a lot of people were not breastfeeding two-year-olds, so kind of excellent- Mm ... that, that, that was in, that was your experience. Did your mum kind of talk to you about her journey breastfeeding? Was she somebody that talked to you about the ending? How was she when you were breastfed? Breastfeeding, sorry. [00:04:48] Kat: Uh, I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Um, I've, I've got quite an estranged sort of, uh, past with my mum, so I haven't actually had that, uh, conversation with her, I'd say. Um, but I just- Okay ... know that I was two when I was stopped, when I stopped breastfeeding. Okay. [00:05:03] Emma Pickett: Sorry, is it uncomfortable for me to have brought that up? Is that, is that okay? No, [00:05:06] Kat: not at [00:05:06] Emma Pickett: all. Yeah. [00:05:07] Kat: Yeah. No, that's fine. [00:05:08] Emma Pickett: Um, well done for protecting yourself and, and taking a step away from her, somebody if you, if that was your choice, and that's what you needed to do. Okay. Let's talk a bit about Isaac then. So- [00:05:18] Kat: Mm-hmm ... [00:05:18] Emma Pickett: you're with your partner Sam, and breastfeeding is something that you want to make happen, and Isaac appears in the world. What was his birth like? What was early breastfeeding like? [00:05:27] Kat: Uh, birth was incredible. Um, I had the best labor I could possibly have wanted. Again, I was quite laid back about obviously being aware that there is a lot of trauma when it comes to giving birth and things like that, but I was very much like quite laid back around my, what I wanted in birth and my birth plan as such. So I was quite, you know, open about having an epidural and this, that, and the other. But I think it was about 18 hours from start to finish, and it was just the best thing ever. Obviously, it hurt like a bit, but- ... but it was, yeah, it was the best thing ever. Early breastfeeding, the start of it was quite tricky, I'd say. Um, he w- it wasn't easy to get him to latch. Um, there was a few things around, obviously, him, his positioning and stuff like that. Um, luckily, I had an infant feeding tea- uh, per- person from a team come to speak to me, um, in the hospital, which I remember very clearly, and I now work with her in the hospital, which is quite nice as well [00:06:28] Emma Pickett: Yay. Yes, spoiler alert, you're, we're gonna talk about you becoming a breastfeeding peer supporter and a breastfeeding supporter in a minute- Yeah ... which is fantastic. So you, so you, that's the f- obviously the first time you met her, I'm guessing, and you got to- [00:06:39] Kat: Yes ... [00:06:39] Emma Pickett: s- receive her counsel at the client end and the patient end- Yeah of the conversation. Um, so, so he needed a few t- he needed a few tweaks, a bit of positioning. Yeah. Just to get down to the, the finer details for the breastfeeding nerds, do you remember what your problems actually were and what adjustments you needed? [00:06:55] Kat: Sore nipples, cracked nipples. He wasn't able to get a deep suck at the very beginning. Um, apparently his mouth was quite swollen. I've been told that his, his ... he couldn't open his mouth wide enough in order to get that deep latch. And then I think as he grow, as he grew, it was very much like a positioning thing. I needed to remember to move him round and things like that, um, to make it more of a comfortable latch, which I learnt at the breastfeeding support groups and stuff that I went to. [00:07:22] Emma Pickett: Okay. So there was a little bit of post-birth sort of inflammation and swelling that made that early latching- Yes ... difficult for him, and opening his mouth was uncomfortable for him. And then you talked about moving him round. I think a lot of people focus a lot on what's the mouth doing without realizing how important it is to get body positions right because, you know- Absolutely if, if we start, for example, with ... Oh, I know you know this, but if we start with nipples on lips, a baby's not gonna gape. Why would they gape? They're just gonna do a little spaghetti slurp. Um, so- Yeah ... and, and people think, "Oh, nose to nipple. I've heard that from somewhere. Let me focus on getting the nose to the nipple," without realizing that chin contact is probably the most significant part of getting a gape and triggering that, the baby bringing their tongue down and opening wide. Um, so, so much of it is about where's the child's body and are they too far around your armpit and they're kind of ending up with their chin down towards their chest. Um, I have- Mm-hmm ... an article about comparing breastfeeding a bit like to playing golf. It was an article I originally wrote, um, for, for dads who are golf fans. The idea that a tiny little change in your golf swing can make all the difference. Um, and it really just can be the tiniest adjustment, um, that can, can ... So it doesn't have to be, you know, an hour-long breastfeeding session for s- to be able to realize what someone's problem is. Sometimes it's just that tiny, tiny tweak So, so you were, you were sore at the beginning and you got more comfortable. You ... So you stayed in the hospital for a bit, and then you were going to groups you said. What, what's the local support like where you are? [00:08:44] Kat: It's amazing. Um, we are ridiculously lucky with our post codes, um, in terms of breastfeeding support. There is a breastfeeding support group, one every day of the week in Bedford. Um, and also, uh, Central Beds, um, and places like that, which is incredible. Uh, it's through the Family Hubs, so that's just the group that, um, that's the charity that kind of do it around who I support with. [00:09:07] Emma Pickett: It's so refreshing to hear someone saying ama- you know, 'What's your breastfeeding support like?' 'Amazing.' I mean, I can count on one hand the amount of times- Yeah ... someone's answered that question to me. So, so that's your local authority caring enough about breastfeeding to prioritize- Yeah ... it in the budget and prioritize it with funding. And do you have ... And I guess I'm asking you this with your breastfeeding peer support hat on. Do you have a specialist pathway? I mean, can you get access to IBCLCs or, or more complex, um, problem resolving teams? How, how does it work with pathways? [00:09:35] Kat: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, obviously being a peer supporter there's only so much you can kind of do within your remit. You can absolutely signpost, um, to, um, lactation consultants and pla- and people like that. Um, or obviously whoever they kinda need to speak to. But yeah, in terms of like actual support and things like that, I would have 100% quit breastfeeding early days if it wasn't for the breastfeeding support group that I actually got from the B- from the co- from the, uh, support groups, which is pretty impressive to be fair. [00:10:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's great. So you were able to go to the groups, get a bit more support. Things got more comfortable. Uh-huh. And at what point did you decide to train as a breastfeeding peer supporter yourself? [00:10:18] Kat: I think from going to groups I kind of I got a little bit more comfortable talking to mums about breastfeeding, um, and about their journeys and things like that. Um, and I was actually helping my friend who had recently given birth. Her baby is about five months earlier than Isaac. So helping her through her breastfeeding journey as well, obviously knowing what I know, um, without being a peer supporter and things like that, things that, you know, that have helped me and things. We actually went to group together and one of, um, the family practitioners, um, said, "You should really become a buddy." So I did, and that's how it kind of works, and it's, it's been amazing. I love it. Tell us about [00:10:56] Emma Pickett: your training. So is it, is it run by a particular charity in Bedfordshire, or it's just their own organization? [00:11:03] Kat: So it's run by the baby-friendly team in the Cambridgeshire County Services- Okay ... at Cambridgeshire County Council Services. Family Hubs is employed by Bedford Borough, um, which is the council that, um, run Bedford. And I went on the course, which is Breastfeeding and Relationship Management, which is a two-and-a-half day course. Um, and it's just, it was really, really, really important and crucial to, like, hear those, um, all the information about it. Because obviously still at the time, I was still breastfeeding, um, and taking him to groups with me when he was little, um, which is really, really good. Um, but the, the training was, yeah, really, really important to me. [00:11:43] Emma Pickett: It's interesting it's called Breastfeeding and Relationship Management. That's a really interesting phrase. What do, what do they mean by that? [00:11:52] Kat: I think it's more, um, building relationships with the people that you're talking to. Okay. Um, obviously changing the way that you speak to certain people as, um, how you would a different person, changing the language. Some people prefer chest fed to breastfed. Some people aren't he, aren't a she/her. Other people... You know, you kind of have to- Okay ... adapt the way that you talk to people as you talk to them, and it's about breaking that ice between them. Obviously, uh, some people absolutely are comfortable coming to group straightaway, taking the boob out and saying, "This is what's going on." Whereas some people need that little bit extra of, you know, friendly talk before they get into what's actually going on and why they've attended group and things like that. [00:12:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it's kind of communication skills and counseling skills. I was wondering whether you're kind of like, you know, a therapist or something. But no, no two-and-a-half day training is gonna get you to be a therapist. Um, so it's more about how your relationship with the person you're supporting and how you center them in the conversation, and kind of listening skills and communication skills. Okay. Yeah. So then when you've done your training, so how old was Isaac at, when you were doing your training? [00:12:56] Kat: I think he was Six months, seven months, I'd say [00:13:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then after that, did you volunteer? At what point did you get your, your job? [00:13:08] Kat: Yeah, so I started volunteering in September of last year, and Isaac would come to groups with me, uh, which is really, really good. Um, I do two volunteering sessions a week with, um, within the group setting. And then once Isaac started nursery, once he was one, I'd then move into the hospital and work with the infant feeding team that are also employed by the family hubs as well, and do a little bit of work in the hospital as well, which I'm currently doing now. [00:13:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're still a volunteer. You're still... It's all still- Yes ... a voluntary thing. Well, gosh, well done. That's amazing. Um, acknowledging obviously not everyone has the ability to do that, but I think it's super special- Mm ... that that's an option you have. Uh, and being in hospital, I mean, we're, we're, I probably, we're gonna probably talk about your own journey in a minute again, I promise. Um- Mm ... being in hospital is really intense. It's a really intense place to do breastfeeding support just because you're meeting- It is ... people who have just given birth, who may even be quite traumatized after their birth, th- you know, maybe very over sense... You know, lots of sensory stuff going on, and it's not an easy environment for anybody, um, let alone somebody who's neurodivergent, those who, or who's had trauma. Um, how do you go into that space in a way that means you can kind of look after everybody and, um, c- how do you kind of protect yourself in that space? 'Cause it's very intense. [00:14:21] Kat: It is very intense. Um, I think it's just more of, um, if you deal with a difficult experience in the hospital, it's just talking to the staff that are there, um, to help you, um, and things like that. Just kind of obviously helping them by talking to them as about breastfeeding because they don't have time to. But also just talking about, oh, that was a really, that was a really tough day to go into. That was a really tough conversation to have, and things like that. Um, I think it's just important to be completely transparent about it. Um, and there are gonna be families that, you know, don't want support there and then, um, which again, is absolutely fine. You can just signpost them to a particular group if they would prefer to. But it's just very much kind of showing your face, being that friendly person that sometimes they just want a conversation. They don't wanna talk about breastfeeding, they don't wanna talk about their birth. They just want a conversation about anything really that they would necessarily want to, and it might help them then open up a little bit more into what they want to do as a feeding journey and things like that. [00:15:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:27] Kat: But yeah, it's completely different obviously because they are ... You're, you're approaching them versus people at group who are approaching you. Um, and obviously, yes, people that to- do come to group are still days postpartum, but you are seeing people who are hours postpartum who, you know, are vulnerable and emotional and things like that. So you absolutely have to change the way that you do approach that, um, with them in particular. [00:15:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. It's great to hear you talk about being sort of part of a team with the hospital staff. I think that's really important. I think when everyone's- Mm ... super busy, it's very easy to think, oh, breastfeeding peer supporters are here. Great. Let's leave them to it. And, and you know, all, all other staff, the staff are doing their thing, but it really is teamwork. Obviously, you know, they're gonna signpost you to go and see particular people and you're gonna say, "Actually I did this with this person." And maybe if you follow up on the next feed if you can. Um, you know, that two-way communication is, is so important I think not least because we don't want hospital staff to get kind of de-skilled. I think occasionally- Yeah ... I'm not saying this is all happening everywhere, but sometimes when there are peer supporters in hospitals, it can be really easy for staff to think, oh, well wait till the peer supporters get here. You know- Yeah ... they'll do the breastfeeding. And, and I'm not sure that actually in the long term helps a hospital set up, um, because staff start to- No, absolutely ... think breastfeeding's not their thing. So it's great, it's great to hear that's not your case [00:16:46] Kat: Yeah. And it's quite nice as well being in the hospital, um, the midwives ask you questions about breastfeeding. Um, because as obviously they are breastfed trained and things like that, but they ask about particular things about a particular scenario and things like that. Um, and just generally sort of, um, like one recently was a midwife that was asking about storage of breast milk and things like that, which obviously changes depending on, um, temperature and all of that sort of stuff. So it is quite nice to ... You, you build that relationship with the people in the hospital. Um- Yeah. Brilliant ... you talk to them about it, and they also ask you questions about it, which I think is, is really nice actually. [00:17:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, that's to your credit, Kat, that they, people feel comfortable doing that because that, that says what relationship you've built up with your colleagues in that setup and that, that they feel comfortable coming to you to ask those kind of questions. Um, I think that that's super important. Let's go back to your journey with Isaac. So he's a few weeks old. You're breastfeeding. Were you exclusively breastfeeding? What was, what else was happening in those early weeks? [00:17:49] Kat: I was, I was exclusively breastfeeding. Um, I was trying to pump here and there to give, um, Isaac a bottle, um, so that my partner can give him a bottle to give me a little bit of a break because sore nipples are a thing. But I found r- pumping was particularly quite difficult, especially like, obviously I didn't at that time know all of the ins and outs of pumps and how to optimize pump, and hormones impact your output and things like that. So I was obviously seeing an empty pump at the end of a pumping session and feeling ridiculously disheartened by that. That in particular I remember very well and crying over, "I've got four drops. That's not enough. I'm not feeding my baby," which is, you know, the sort of normal thing to, I would say normal t- thing to think in those early days especially. [00:18:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, people imagining that pumping measures milk supply. That is- Yes one of the biggest- Yeah ... myths of our time, thinking that pumping actually tells you anything about your milk production or anything about what your baby's getting. Exactly. So were you not using the right kind of flange size? What was happening for you? Or you just were someone who didn't respond to a pump? [00:18:49] Kat: No, I think it was flange size. Um, I got that measured at the breastfeeding support groups that I was attending. Um, and also it was, I think I initially, um, started pumping when I was, like, a week and a half in, so obviously my milk wouldn't have been optimal at that time anyway. And obviously at, also at that time, I think social media had a massive sort of impact on what you see with pumping and things like that 'cause you've got loads of pe- these people on social media that are being like, "Look how much supply I've got. Look," you know, filling jars and jars and jars of, um, their breast milk. And if you're in that moment where you only see, like, you know, 15 ml or something like that, it does make you feel a little bit disheartened, I'd say. Um, but I think in that particular setting it's because I had only just breastfed, and I was actually just telling my body that I needed the milk, that not there and then getting that milk, if that makes sense. [00:19:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and one of the things that I'm quite often saying is with, with breast milk, you imagine it's all about milliliters, but actually if you pump quite soon after a feed You might just get a trickle, but it's gonna be really, really, really high in fat content and, and milliliters- Mm-hmm ... is really about water at the end of the day. And, you know, breast milk is what? 88% water, something like that. So, and we d- getting out of our heads thinking that volume is what it's all about when actually- Mm ... for example, if you are pumping to increase supply or pumping to get milk for top-ups, smaller quantities really can be king and can be what you absolutely need. [00:20:14] Kat: Absolutely. [00:20:15] Emma Pickett: What you're saying about s- that social media messaging I think is so important. I think if you're worried about it and you get sucked into the algorithm of the women with enormous great bags of breast milk, and you stare at that video for a split second longer because it's feeding something in your anxiety, the algorithm's gonna feed you those videos even more, and you're gonna see them again and again, and then, and before you know it, it's just become, you know, your entire feed. You know- Yeah ... obviously there are women out there who are pumping very early on, probably they're American, they're probably going back to work super early on, and, you know, there's lots of stuff going on there which isn't necessarily healthy around hyperlactation and, and it is, it is not normal to be feeding a baby and producing vast quantities of milk. And, and, you know, n- not normal in terms of actually the health of the woman. I mean, it's not unlikely that that, that parent could be struggling with m- mastitis risk and all sorts of stuff. It's, uh- [00:21:06] Kat: Mm-hmm ... [00:21:06] Emma Pickett: not a situation anyone should be doing. We don't feed the freezer. We, we feed babies. [00:21:10] Kat: Yes. [00:21:10] Emma Pickett: Um, and I guess if anyone is worried about their milk production, obviously it's time to reach out and get support. But it's very normal to not be able to pump very much at all. Even with the right flange, even with the fancy pump- Mm-hmm ... you still may not get enough milk c- for, to, for a full feed in one pumping session. Um, I know I'm telling you stuff that you already know. So any particular challenges with Isaac in the early weeks or early months? [00:21:31] Kat: I don't think so. I think once we got the hang of it, um, it was very, it was quite smooth sailing for a while. Until obviously he grew and muscle memory is putting him into a partic- particular position. Um, and then obviously that resulted in a poor latch and my nipples ended up lipstick shaped and all of that sort of jazz. So back to the breastfeeding support groups as a peer supporter as well, being like, 'I need help'. And that was, I think I was about, I think he was about nine months by that point, and obviously he'd grown. And, uh, it was as simple as that little tweak that we spoke about earlier as, you know, just slightly adjusting that positioning in order to make that deep latch and things like that. [00:22:09] Emma Pickett: So he needed to go a little bit further away from the, from the nipple is what often happens at that age. Yes. Children are, are too far beyond the nipple, and they just need to go back to being- [00:22:18] Kat: Yeah … [00:22:19] Emma Pickett: you know, nose to nipple, tilt- tilting their head back again. But with a center of gravity of a nine-month-old, that might mean that half of them is falling off your lap and you're not able to hold them in that cradle hold position. So that's when you need to think about where you're gonna be holding them and, you know, but, uh ... And I, I'm really glad to hear that obviously I don't expect anything less of the support network you've talked about, but I do sadly sometimes hear of people going to groups with bigger babies and not necessarily feeling that this is where they're welcome, that those groups are for newborns. Or, you know, the support teams sometimes say things like, 'Oh, well, at this age I'm not sure you can do much'. I've had people telling me that, which is obviously outrageous. You can change latch at any age. You can change the latch of a three-year-old if you need to. There's no age where it's not possible to make adjustments. Um, and so I'm glad to hear you're, you were welcome in those spaces. [00:23:06] Kat: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which [00:23:11] Emma Pickett: is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Let's get to the point where things started to feel a little bit tough. What was a typical night like for you as Isaac was, was turning one? [00:25:17] Kat: So I mean, in general he was a really, really good sleeper. But I think once he did wake up, like obviously most nights he would sleep through, but those certain nights that he wouldn't, I was up four times with him feeding him and obviously the sort of default go to is boob and then he'd sleep. Which is fine, but I think it kinda got to the point for me where I was just I just kind of wanted my body back, I think. Like, people f- obviously feel like selfish saying that, and I did feel selfish saying that in the beginning and things like that. But it was very much like, I think in particular I put on a lot of weight when I was breastfeeding, and that had impacted the way I thought about myself, um, especially. Obviously, I was absolutely happy to breastfeed, and it was prob- it was the best thing I'd ever done in my life. But I think for myself, it was just I needed to, I need to, needed to break that habit, I think. I just needed to ... You know, he'd, he'd had about 14, 16 months of really good constant breastfeeding and things like that. But I think for me it was just very much a me thing. I needed to, you know. [00:26:22] Emma Pickett: And it wasn't, there wasn't pressure from anyone else. It wasn't something coming from other places. No. It was very much, sounds like it was really much an internal decision for you. And was it something that kind of, did you have kind of an epiphany of one day thinking, 'Oh my God, this is, I've had enough of this'? Or was it something that kinda gradually crept up on you? [00:26:37] Kat: I think it was gradual for me. Um, so he did start biting, which obviously then puts you kind of on eggshells as you are breastfeeding. Like, you want him to sleep, so therefore he is still breastfeeding, but you're aware that he's just biting you, so you are constantly on edge. And I didn't enjoy that. [00:26:52] Emma Pickett: You didn't enjoy him biting you. Kat, what's wrong with you? No, I [00:26:54] Kat: know. Of [00:26:54] Emma Pickett: course you- I [00:26:55] Kat: know ... [00:26:55] Emma Pickett: how weird you are. Yeah. No, for anyone who's, who's breastfeeding an older toddler, biting is obviously such a miserable, miserable part of breastfeeding. And- [00:27:04] Kat: Yeah, [00:27:04] Emma Pickett: it is ... I, I guess we don't wanna give the impression it's universal. There are many people who never get bitten. But what, when, when was he biting you in terms of where, where in the feed? Could you detect any patterns of when it was happening? [00:27:15] Kat: Uh, it was fa- I think it was kinda towards the end of the feed, to be honest. Um, either he'd be slowly falling asleep at the breast, and therefore suddenly jolting awake feeling like I needed to get more, and then obviously that's when he bites down. But yeah, I'd say it was more towards the end of the feed that he'd do that. [00:27:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so quick little thing on biting. That's a ... Lots of people say that, that kind of sudden kind of reflex of, you know, that almost that kind of falling reflex you get when you're sleeping. Mm. If they jolt and bite down, that's absolutely horrendous. So, so getting that little finger poised and potentially even taking them off before they're fully asleep. And then obviously there are some people biting at the beginning, and that can be connected to a little person saying, "Actually, I don't really wanna feed, thank you very much." Or, or, you know, "This positioning's not working for me." Or, so I guess, I'm sure you'd agree, if someone is dealing with a toddler biting, don't assume there's nothing that can be done, because there c- could be- No, absolutely ... depending on when that biting is happening, that there absolutely are options. And, and sometimes it just comes back to positioning attachment again. If a, if a child's not got that, that chin tilt, if the chin is buried into the chest, that c- is more likely to lead to, to the tongue being retracted and teeth biting down on the breast. So we can help you if it's happening. I don't want you to think it's impossible to change things So you said that obviously you were starting to feel a little bit ground down. You felt like you needed to be able to focus on yourself and your body a bit more. Mm. And, and w- what was a typical 24 hours like just before you started to wean? What was a sort of typical breastfeeding pattern over 24 hours? [00:28:42] Kat: I mean, I gradually ... I noticed that he was, uh, becoming a lot more independent in general throughout the day and things like that. It was just more nighttime that he'd want that comfort, I sugge- um, I suppose. But I did notice that he'd start to gradually, like, shorten the feeds, for example. Um, obviously he's eating more and, um, playing more and things like that, so becoming a little bit more independent, and I think that's where I started to see, okay, so I, I don't 'Cause y- you kinda, you default to it, don't you? You kinda get into a particular routine that, yes, works for you, but doesn't necessarily work for them anymore as they grow to become more independent and things like that. So I think for me it was very much a, oh, you don't want breastfeeding at the moment. Okay, that's, that's okay. We'd, you know ... Um, and I think towards the end it was very much like, oh, you don't actually want to. And I think obviously you- Okay ... kinda feel a little bit, you kinda feel a little bit sad in that sort of moment, but You're aware that they are becoming more independent, and I think that I was becoming, I was aware that he was becoming more independent and wanting to do things for himself, and- [00:29:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it sounds like maybe, I mean, not to put a label on it and come back at me if this feels nonsense, but it doesn't sound like he was what we would call a booby monster. It doesn't sound like you, he- No ... you weren't weaning someone who was absolutely 100% addicted, asking every 20 minutes. He was already on- No a bit of a journey, so the weaning process was a kind of a nudge and a push and a finishing it off rather than absolutely- Yeah ... in, uh, uh, the point where it was the absolute, you know, a little person who's obsessed. [00:30:11] Kat: Yeah, absolutely. [00:30:12] Emma Pickett: You mentioned that you sometimes he was sleeping through and sometimes he wasn't. I think sometimes that's almost harder when you do get- [00:30:17] Kat: Yes ... [00:30:17] Emma Pickett: a little person that sleeps through and then sometimes they don't. Oh, it made it so much more difficult. And that uncertainty, yeah, and your body gets used to sleeping through, and then you have the full night, full wake-ups the next night. I mean, it's that up and down rollercoaster that can't have been easy. [00:30:30] Kat: Yeah, I think to be honest, like after he got to one, if he didn't sleep through I was just like, "What's going on here?" Um, we've been doing this for a year now. This isn't new. You know, let- let's, let's sleep a little bit more and things like that. Um, so, and now absolutely it does make it a little bit harder on yourself because, you know, you, you get a solid like two weeks where he sleeps through and I was just like, oh, bless, amazing. I'm getting sleep. I'm able to be a lot more productive throughout the day. I'm not, you know, reaching 6:00 in the evening yawning constantly and things like that. So when he does wake up, it just, it makes it that little bit more like, meh, not, not nice. [00:31:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and he's in his own room at this point? He's in a cot in his own room? [00:31:08] Kat: He is. [00:31:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. Yes. So there are some people listening to this thinking, what's she on about sleeping through at 12 months, um, in my dreams. I've never had, you know, there'll be people who, people listening to this breastfeeding two and three-year-olds who've never ever had their child sleeping through the night, and if that is your reality, I want you to know that you're not alone. That's a story I often hear, and that doesn't necessarily mean that, that your child is broken or anything's g- going wrong. That can be normal for some children. [00:31:33] Kat: Yeah. [00:31:34] Emma Pickett: But as I said, I think sometimes it's the people who have experienced the sleeping through who can actually find the broken nights even harder. Um- Yeah ... and you know, it doesn't mean that you don't deserve sympathy in those moments. So you said, okay, I'm gonna need to start- [00:31:47] Kat: Mm-hmm ... [00:31:47] Emma Pickett: doing some night weaning. How did you get ready for that? [00:31:50] Kat: Obviously a lot of research. Um, your, your particular articles really helped me, I think. Um, but in general, I'd I, I kind of looked at doing it gradually, so I didn't, I definitely didn't wanna quit cold turkey, 'cause again, I think my hormones would've, yeah, not liked that at all. But I s- I started to do it gradually, so every two weeks I would stop a feed. I would, you know, if it was a, if it was a nap feed or a, um, a feed throughout the day, I'd change that and distract him out of it by, you know, offering a snack or trying to change the way that I would comfort him. Obviously, normal comfort is putting to breast, whereas I'd cuddle him a little bit more or I'd, you know, I'd distract him if he did come to me for a feed and things like that. And then as, like, the nights went on, obviously because he is now at 12 months, I then introduced cow's milk to him, so I was able to use that as a way of, in, obviously as a replacement for breastfeeding and things like that. So over the space of two weeks. [00:32:50] Emma Pickett: So during the day when he's out and about and he's playing and he, and he's asking, you're rest- distracting with a snack or a cuddle- Mm-hmm or something else. If h- if it's a pre-nap feed, you were previously feeding to sleep for the nap? [00:33:03] Kat: I was, yeah. [00:33:04] Emma Pickett: And how did you change that? What did you do differently? [00:33:06] Kat: I just introduced cow's milk to him instead. I gave him about, um, I gave him a small amount of cow's milk, um, and noticed he kind of, he, he grabbed onto that quite well and then started getting sleepy from that, and then I would a- I would be able to change the way I comfort him, such as, you know, cuddle or pat, swing, and things like that. [00:33:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. So there are some people listening to this thinking, 'What? I don't even begin to understand. If I gave my child a cup of cow's milk, well, A, they'd reject it, but B, even if they drank it, they'd then look at me and go, 'That was nice. Thank you, Mommy. But now it's time to breastfeed before we go to sleep.'" So it ki- it kind of tells me that Isaac was probably in a zone where he was receptive to this, so- [00:33:44] Kat: Yeah ... [00:33:44] Emma Pickett: so I, I don't mean to suggest that he's a unicorn, 'cause obviously these children are out there and he's very normal. But, um, I don't want you to think if your child is struggling with that method, that necessarily means that you're doing something wrong because it sounds like Isaac was a, a pretty laid back little bloke. The fact he was, he was happy to accept a bit of a cow's milk, cup of milk and then just to cuddle and go to sleep, um- Yeah ... he wasn't in that nap resistance stage. He was just happy to be in your arms. [00:34:12] Kat: Yeah, and I think that's what made weaning so much easier, I would say, because Because he was receptive to it and because he did, you know, it was, I'd say, easier than I wa- wa- than what I was thinking, especially when it came to naps and things like that. So I think it made it easier when it did come down to the really tough parts where I was then like, 'Okay, I can actually do this,' because, you know, he was receptive to it, and it, I was, I didn't feel like I was doing something wrong. [00:34:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So let's talk a bit more about the nights. So I'm just aware we've talked about how sometimes he was sleeping through and sometimes he wasn't. Mm. And sometimes it was four feeds, and sometimes it was one feed. So I'm, I'm thinking at night you can't necessarily do the dropping one feed at a time thing because the nights are- No ... so varied. So how specifically did you tackle the nights? [00:35:00] Kat: So again, I think I, I did it gradually over two weeks. Um, so again, I dropped a breastfeed d- during the day and then when it came to nights, um, I was very much, I didn't want to necessarily feed through the night, so I kind of managed to, for some reason, pick a, a stretch where he was sleeping through the night and then I would give him a bottle of cow's milk before bed, and then obviously get him to sleep that way. Um, and then if he did wake up through the night, I would then tackle that, um, scenario in particular. [00:35:30] Emma Pickett: So he's, he's what, 12, 12 to 14 months during this process at this point? [00:35:34] Kat: Yeah, of me kind of introducing cow's milk as a, as a way. [00:35:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. [00:35:38] Kat: Um, I was still breastfeeding through the night and things like that, um, just because it was easier, I would say. Um, and it wasn't particularly ... Yeah, there was obviously because sleep is so inconsistent, you don't know when they are gonna sleep versus not gonna sleep Um, so it's just very much like I wanted to pick a particular day where I was just like, 'That's the, gonna be the last feed. We are going to have this lovely, lovely evening routine of our particular normal evening, and I'm then just gonna stop.' [00:36:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So, so I keep getting you to go back over the details, but 'cause I'm a details girl. So, so let's imagine- No, that's fine ... it's a night where you're phasing out the breastfeeding. He has woken. Mm-hmm. You did give him the bottle of cow's milk at bedtime. It's 2:00 in the morning and he did wake. So you would sometimes go in and give him more cow's milk, or you would go in and try and rock him? You would, do you take him out of his cot? Tell me exactly what you were doing. I want the details. [00:36:33] Kat: So I would take him out of his cot. Um, I would see how particular he was, how upset he was. Um, I would give him a cuddle. He very much still had a hand down my top, um, that was his kind of comfort. He wanted to be able to touch my breast and things like that. And if he was particularly upset, then I would, you know, maybe go upstairs and get him a little bit more cow's milk, um, just to try and get him back off to sleep a little bit easier. But sometimes it was just as simple as he just wanted that comfort from me, which was really great 'cause it was still, you know, I was still getting those comf- cuddles and things like that. It wasn't like, you know, don't get me wrong, there was some morning, uh, some evenings and some nights where he was, I would say, exercised by the devil as from his, you know, arching back and screaming like, "How are, how dare you not feed me?" But it was quite nice to Then get out of that where it was just very much, "Oh, I just want a cuddle, and then I can go back to sleep." And then I'd put him back down. And then again, if it happened again, say, if it was like two or three times at that point, then I would bring him into our bed t- um, especially just so that I could get a little bit more rest and evenings and stuff. [00:37:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. So when he's in your bed, you're still not breastfeeding, you're just cuddling, you're just holding him. [00:37:46] Kat: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:37:47] Emma Pickett: Um, you're just settling him. I think one of the things that strikes me is that you sound very together and calm. You sound like you were, "I'm doing this. This is what we're doing." [00:37:57] Kat: Yeah, [00:37:57] Emma Pickett: yeah. "Isaac, my friend, I'm with you on this journey. I'm..." And, and I guess you're kinda oozing this kind of confidence that maybe was rubbing off on him. That, I mean, this is the whole essence of co-regulation. You had realized you needed to do this. You'd made the decision. You were on a journey, and you were saying to him, "I'm here for you, mate, but we're not gonna be breastfeeding." So, um, so it sounds like your mental state was such a key part of making this work. Is that, is that fair? [00:38:22] Kat: Yeah, I think so. I think I was just, I think because I was dead set on my, I wanted my body back, I wanted to focus on losing weight, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to be able to chase him when he's five years old in a field over a ball and things like that. I wanted to do those activities with him when he was older, and I was aware that I was particularly overweight, and I wasn't happy with how I was in that moment, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing or anything in particular, but I was just more aware of future-proofing, I would say. You know, I wanted to be in that moment with him in the future and things like that. So I think because of that I was dead set on, no, you know, I am gonna put my foot down. This is, we're not gonna breastfeed, and things like that. I'm gonna find a different way of comforting you and, you know, we will get over this, and things like that. Because I think it, I think that's also detrimental is that you know the one thing that is gonna stop them from crying is give them a breastfeed. But if you are absolutely dead set on your, and your mind is, you know, completely made up, you are, you know, more vigilant with, "No, we're not going to do this," you know? So I think I was a little bit more, um, yeah, I would say I'm, I was a little bit more vigilant with it. I was, I don't, I wouldn't say I was particularly anxious with it in that particular, uh, moment and things like that. It was just more of, we're doing this. [00:39:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's the vibe I'm getting, and that's, I'm sure that's the vibe he was picking up, too. Um, you know, Mommy's confident about her decision, so she thinks I'm safe. I feel safe. You know, we're gonna go back to sleep, and we're gonna be okay. Uh, and, and you mentioned that you consciously chose when that last feed was gonna be. Talk us through what that last feed was like. [00:39:59] Kat: Oh, I was so emotional. My God. I, we had our normal sort of evening routine, you know, um, read him a story, um, you know, play with him a little bit, um, change his nappy. Again, sort of that normal evening routine. Lay down and feed. And then obviously in that moment I was, you know, looking at pictures from when we first started feeding or I'd, you know, think about all of the positives of breastfeeding and what we'd been In particular, you know, I'd, I wouldn't focus on the tough parts or anything like that because I'd, I was very much more I wanted to remember how good this was. You know, I wanted to remember how rewarding this was for both me and him. So I wanted to end it on a very good note, I would say. We had a particular routine where my partner would come and sit with us in the evening while I'd breastfeed Isaac to sleep, and then, um, we'd have a chat and things like that, and he was amazing for me then. He just, you know, he noticed that I was upset. He'd comfort me and console me, and then Isaac went to sleep, and then that was it. It was, it was, it was great, I would say. It was a really, really great last feed, I would say. [00:41:06] Emma Pickett: That's lovely to hear. And, and then obviously as the title of the episode suggests, things weren't necessarily easy-peasy after that. Something happened to your mood and things got tough. Yeah. And so even though you've made it really clear throughout this that you're somebody who absolutely knew you wanted to embress feeding, and it absolutely felt like the right thing to do, and you were really motivated, you were still hit with what we would call weaning blues. And I think that's really important for everyone to realize is that weaning blues is not about regretting a weaning decision or necessarily feeling sad at the loss of breastfeeding. Some people could be thrilled that breastfeeding's ended and still be hit by this. So when did you first realize that maybe things weren't gonna be straightforward? [00:41:45] Kat: I think it was about a week later after I'd stopped breastfeeding that I was a bit, like, I started to notice that I was a little more irritable. Um, I was a little bit more angry, I'd say. I was getting a little bit more emotional at what Isaac was doing, you know. Like, if he would, you know, all of a sudden be able to say a word, or if he would all of a sudden be able to, you know, bum shuffle a little bit faster and things like that. I started to notice I was becoming a little bit more upset versus happy tears at those particular things. So I think it was about a week where I started to notice, okay, I'm not okay, I would say [00:42:21] Emma Pickett: And are you somebody who'd previously sort of noticed a sort of hormonal impact that, m- I mean, for example, I had an episode with Lucy Webber about PMDD, and one of the things that we talked about is that people that often have premenstrual difficulties with, um, mood are more prone- Mm to getting weaning blues. Are you somebody that during your cycles had quite a lot of mood s- mood swings already? [00:42:43] Kat: Um, not particularly. Okay. I would say, um, when I was breastfeeding, yes, I would say that since I've never been a particularly emotional person or mood swingy person, um, w- within my cycles or anything like that. But I would say that because my periods were so irregular, I didn't really know where my cycles were or things like that, that I didn't necessarily pinpoint it to, oh, that was the reason why I'm, you know, feeling this particular way or anything like that. Obviously, when you, when you are breastfeeding, things like that, your hormones are already spiked and things like that, so therefore you, um, respond to things differently. Yeah, I think in general it was more hormonal throughout breastfeeding versus pregnancy and even beforehand, I was never particularly mood swingy. [00:43:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. When did you sort of make a connection and think, hang on, maybe this is to do with breastfeeding? [00:43:33] Kat: I think it was pre- it was pretty early on, actually. Um, my partner actually said something to me that was just like, "Well, you're sort of breastfeeding now. Your, your hormones will be adjusting." Um, which is an amazing thing for a partner to say as well. So he was, you know, really receptive to noticing that I'd stopped and therefore that might be the particular reason, and it was because of him that I was like, actually, yeah, I noticed that I wasn't okay and things like that. So pr- it was pricked up quite early, I'd say within the first, um, couple of weeks. [00:44:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's kind of impressive that your partner's the one who made- Yeah ... that connection. Um, brownie points awarded to, to Sam for that. That's amazing. And- And it, it became low mood, did it? It became what we might call kind of depress- depressive type symptoms. [00:44:17] Kat: Yeah, very much so. It was very much a, if anything, more anger than anything. Um, I don't know why, but I would feel particularly stressed, you know. I, I'd kind of become under this assumption that, oh, I've stopped breastfeeding now, everything's gonna be great, you know, like he's gonna do certain things and become more independent and do this, that, and the other. Whereas I was, I was just more angry about like tiny little things like a tea towel being dirty or, you know, that sort of little thing that kind of sent me over the edge that I was just like, ugh, something's going on here, and I'm not really particularly enjoying it. And I think if anything, the thing that helped me was when Isaac was waking through the night still- Really embracing those cuddles, really embracing that comfort, really embracing those nap comforts, you know, the contact naps and stuff like that. That never stops. That, you know, I, we still do that to this day, and it's the best thing ever because you, you're, again, y- even though you s- stop breastfeeding and things like that, your oxytocin levels are still spiked because you're still having that comfort with your baby. Yeah. Um, so I think if anything, just embracing that really helped be like, "Okay, you can absolutely get over this. This is okay. This is absolutely just temporary." And I think I just needed to, you know, engrave that this is temporary. I can get over it. [00:45:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think those cuddles, that oxy- k- knowing s- consciously that you need to look for oxytocin, I think is so important. Mm. And I think some people when they have just finished breastfeeding are almost nervous to cuddle because they're worried that their child will ask for a breastfeed, or they're worried that their child will kind of pull at them and get into that breastfeeding position. But everybody needs those cuddles, um, and that- Absolutely ... to, to, to make a new culture of cuddling and, you know, c- contact napping. It's great to hear that you were contact napping after you ended breastfeeding, and that's, that's really important. So it sounds as though Sam was really sympathetic, your partner, and knew something was going on, which must be a massive help because if he had said- Yeah "What the heck's going on, woman? Sort yourself out", and with a lack of sympathy- Mm-hmm ... that would've been miserable. Did other people in your life realize what was going on? Did you talk to any of your sort of breastfeeding support colleagues or anyone else? [00:46:28] Kat: I mentioned it a couple of times to, um, a few peer supporters and things like that, and they were just like, "This is absolutely normal. You know, you know, you go through particular things when you stop breastfeeding, and your hormones kind of, they react to how you would initially be in postpartum as a way. You know, your hormones are spiked that much that it kind of replicates that sort of thing, so blues is absolutely common, you know?" You kinda have those sort of ... Luckily for me, I didn't have those, you know, intrusive thoughts or anything like that, but it was just sort- Knowing that it was okay, knowing that it was normal, knowing that it was temporary. And I think using the support network is particularly, is needed in those, especially in the early on when you do notice it because you, you, because you are still going through it, and I think that makes it worse, is that you are still going through it and you're like, "When will it end?" You know, because you know that it's normal, but you're like, "Okay, but when's it gonna stop?" You know, leaning on that support network that I did in the beginning really, really helped with it as well. [00:47:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Did you ever have a moment of thinking, "Oh my God, I shouldn't have weaned. Maybe this is my body telling me this was the wrong thing to do"? [00:47:35] Kat: Oh, God, yeah. Absolutely. I think anyone who is weaning and doesn't have a feeling like that, like hats off to you, but I think it's absolutely normal to, you know, have those moments of, was that the right thing to do? Should I have waited a little bit ul- uh, until he was a bit older? Should I have done it sooner? Like, you know, maybe I shouldn't have done it then. Um, but yeah, absolutely had those thoughts. [00:47:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you talked mainly about anger and irritability as being your main, main symptoms. Yeah. Was there also sadness? Was there also just feeling really low? [00:48:09] Kat: Yeah, I think so. Um, I think in particular it was just more of like, oh, I don't know, not- Not seeing the things that I thought I would see when I started breastfeeding, if that makes sense. Like for example, Isaac still doesn't walk. He bum shuffles everywhere. Um, so I thought that, you know, him starting to become a little bit more mobile and walking and, you know, cruising and that sort of thing, I'd like, but I never had that, so I was just a bit like, 'Why isn't he doing that? Is there something wrong here?' And I think those, that's what made me sad. I'm like maybe if I continued breastfeeding he would be doing that sooner. Um, but again, that was just more of an internal sad thought that I kept having, I would say. [00:48:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. So d- I can't, I don't know enough about child development, but I think we can pretty much say that that wasn't connected to whether or not you were breastfeeding. Um- [00:49:01] Kat: Absolutely not ... [00:49:01] Emma Pickett: but it sounds like your reaction to that, you, you holding onto that was a symptom- Yeah ... of your, your sort of post-weaning mood and, and holding onto things and things feeling more significant and feeling sadder were, were part of your symptoms. And I think obviously it must help that you're a peer supporter. It must help you're surrounded by other people who know about breastfeeding. Um, you- Mm ... say you sort of knew what was going on 'cause Sam had helped you make that connection. So did you ever feel, 'I'm probably gonna need to get some professional help,' or, or you actually felt, "No, I, I know what this is. I'm good. I'm gonna wait"? [00:49:32] Kat: I was aware of it, so therefore I was a bit like more like let's give myself time. Um, you know, because your hormones don't automatically regulate once you stop breastfeeding or anything like that. It's such a gradual sort of process, and because it is different for everyone and things like that, I was like let's give yourself like a six-month sort of target. If you are still feeling this particular way in six months time and things like that, then absolutely seek help. Um, but lucky for me, I did start to gradually stop with the sadness. Continued with the rage for a little bit longer than I would particularly like, but stopped with the sadness and then I started to notice that, okay, this is, you know, it's gradually going away, which is really, really good. [00:50:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah, definitely. Really, really good. How, how long did it last for? [00:50:16] Kat: Um, I'd say about four months or so. Three months, four months. [00:50:19] Emma Pickett: Okay. [00:50:19] Kat: In total. [00:50:19] Emma Pickett: So you're just coming out of it now, and that's when we're t- when we're talking today So for anyone saying, "How long do weaning blues last?" Well, obviously weaning blues can be lots of different things. For some people it is very much just about hormones. For some people it is about saying goodbye to a phase of parenting and adjusting to life without breastfeeding, which is perhaps more psychological than, than physical. [00:50:40] Kat: Mm. [00:50:41] Emma Pickett: And I think possibly, you know, you were doing a fair number of feeds when you started to wean. Uh, I think we can probably agree that if someone's just doing one feed a day for an extended period of time, perhaps their body will notice that change a little bit less- Mm ... if they do wean. But I've even worked with people who are just doing that, and they still get hit by weaning blues. So everyone is so individual, and it's really hard to say, "It lasts for six weeks for everybody. It lasts for three months for everyone. Everyone gets rage. Everyone is sad for 0.3 months." I mean, y- it's just so variable, isn't it? And, and we can't- Absolutely. Absolutely ... we can't exactly say everyone's gonna have the same experience. But yeah, thank you so much for sh- for sharing what, what you went through. And, and you've talked about how the cuddles helped, being conscious about the oxytocin helped. Is there anything else that particularly helped? [00:51:27] Kat: My ... I, I'd say, um, one of my friends in particular, Lydia, she helped a lot because she ... Again, that was the, um, person that I'd helped with breastfeeding and things like that. So I think because we did have that, um, connection from the get-go, talking to her about it, um, was really, really nice as well. Um, and that kind of helped, you know. She was ... Because she's, she was aware of, you know, how hormones are impacted and things like that, and how your mood is impacted with breastfeeding and things like that. Um, so I think it was really important to talk to her in particular, I would say. And she was, yeah, she was an absolute credit to when I stopped breastfeeding as well. [00:52:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you. Three cheers for Lydia. So there'll be some people listening to this thinking, "I'm gonna be weaning soon, and I'm scared of weaning because that doesn't sound good. I'm scared- Mm ... of ending breastfeeding, and I don't want that to happen to me." Perhaps particularly if someone's had a history of any mental health problems, they're, they may be thinking, "I, I don't want that to happen. That's frightening But it may be still the right thing for that person to end breastfeeding. So- Yeah ... so what would you say to somebody who's listening to this thinking, 'I really want to end breastfeeding. I don't want to carry on, but that sounds a bit scary'? What would you say to that person? [00:52:39] Kat: I think I would say exactly if they were fresh postpartum, uh, it's temporary, and l- lean on your support network. That's what they're for. You know, support network isn't necessarily for, you know, the first month of giving birth or anything like that. Your support network is there throughout your, you know, your breastfeeding journey. So l- lean on them. That's what they're there for. Talk to them about it. Um, don't let the thoughts fester. Um, you know, and embrace that oxytocin. You know, you've, you've created this beautiful bond with your baby. Continue that bond, you know, embrace those cuddles, embrace that need for oxytocin because that doesn't stop, you know. People still want to be happy post breastfeeding, and your boy, uh, your baby still needs comfort. So absolutely still, you know, embrace that oxytocin, I would say. [00:53:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I think to kind of If you don't mind me adding to what you've said, your, your implication of that- Mm ... is don't not wean if you wanna wean. Um, if you need to wean- Yeah, absolutely ... or need to end breastfeeding, continuing- Yeah ... to breastfeed when you're miserable and you're not enjoying it will also impact your mood, will also impact your relationship with your child. And, and the idea, you know, if I hold off for another six months, maybe I won't have such bad weaning blues, y- that's not a reason to not wean if you are not enjoying breastfeeding, if it's affecting your ability to live every day and you're dreading being with your kid, and you're not sitting on the sofa, and you're staying out at the park 'cause you don't wanna go home and breastfeed. You know, you have every right to end breastfeeding whenever you want to. That is the core of lactation support. Everyone has the right to- Absolutely ... hopefully breastfeed for as long as they want to, including ending when they want to. [00:54:12] Kat: Mm. I think that's why when I did that last feed, I made sure to think positively about all of the, you know, moments that you have. Because like you say, you know, if you continue breastfeeding for the sake of not wanting to go through that hard process of weaning, it adds more negativity to your breastfeeding journey than what you would want to. You know, you would look back and think, 'I wish I would've stopped breastfeeding then,' or, um, you know, 'I, I, I wanted to end it then, so why didn't I?' And that sort of thing. So I think by ending it when you are completely ready to end it, um, and, you know, start that new phase of parenthood in a completely other way, and make sure that you just, you, you remember your breastfeeding journey for the positives because it is so positive. It's the best thing that you could possibly do for your child. So I think, uh, remembering the positivity of it, I think is important. [00:55:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, congratulations for your breastfeeding journey, um, Kat, and thank you so much for sharing. Um, are there any- Thank you ... particular resources that you'd recommend? Did you find any particular resources around weaning blues that you'd recommend? [00:55:18] Kat: Um, I didn't actually. I didn't actually, um, look into, um ... I tried not to look into a load of different things online about postpartum blues and stuff like that, 'cause I didn't want that, I didn't want that sort of spiral effect to be like, "Oh, well, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen," that sort of thing. So I think if anything, I just use my support network, and luckily I do have a particularly good support network, so I didn't really look into different articles- Yeah ... and things like that around it. [00:55:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I, I get that. And not least because everyone's experiences will be different and, and some- Yeah ... as I said, someone who's like really, really low for three months doesn't necessarily fit being more irritable and angry and, and, um, is, I think you're right, it's about people, isn't it? It's about connecting with people at the end of the day, real life people. But that can include phoning a national breastfeeding helpline. That can, if you don't have a support network like Kat and you're feeling isolated, we're lucky in the UK we've got the National Breastfeeding Helpline and lots of other helplines and support organizations that will, will reach out and help you even if you don't live in an area with fantastic peer support. Um, thank you so much for your time today, Kat. Good luck with the, your continuation of being part of the breastfeeding world and, uh- [00:56:23] Kat: Thank you ... [00:56:24] Emma Pickett: thanks for talking about your experiences today. [00:56:26] Kat: Thank you very much. I've really enjoyed it. It's been great. [00:56:33] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram @emmapickettibclc and on Twitter @makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.