Love Gap Relationships & It Started With An Argument About A Dish Rack

0:03 Hello, hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what we've been actually talking about on Friday the 30th of October. I'm Holly Wainwright. I'm Jessie Stephens. And I'm Em Burnham. And here's what's on our agenda for today, apart from Megan's wine. Does every successful relationship need a very specific love gap?

0:26 Plus, how an argument over a dish rack between two housemates resulted in millions of strangers weighing in.

0:33 And our recommendations from the television show that almost feels too obvious to recommend to a hair product I'm desperate to hear about.

0:41 But first, Jessie Stephens.

0:43 In case you missed it, poor Taylor Swift was the victim of a prank so bad that she was left unable to sleep.

0:50 Oh, no.

0:50 Poor Tay-Tay. I know.

0:51 In a speech at the 56th Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame Gala, which I know we're all tuning into, but just to refresh your memory, this is a few days ago, she was given some sort of honour.

1:03 Fancy award. A fancy award. She's in her awards era. Yeah.

1:06 Yes.

1:07 Yeah, there are some times where you just look around and you go, I want a few more.

1:10 Awards for my shelves. And she's going for that Oscar campaign. She really is. Exactly.

1:13 And so she's like, you know what? Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame Gala, I'll have one.

1:18 You will honour me today. I will arrive at it. Today I'm honouring you by honouring me.

1:25 She was awarded this thing by country music star Brad Paisley.

1:29 Has anyone heard of him before?

1:30 No.

1:30 Then I'm not up with that. They'll be out loud as going, Brad, how do you not know Brad? I'm not up with the country. I only know Keith Urban. Yes, same.

1:38 Well, Brad, years ago in 2007, he, and you only know Keith Urban because he was married to Keith Urban.

1:47 You don't know him for his music. Go on, sing a Keith Urban song.

1:52 No, sing a Keith Urban song.

1:54 Okay. There is a Keith Urban duet with Casey Chambers that I really like. But do you really know that song because of Casey Chambers? Stop bullying me about my country music. Knowledge or lack thereof. I'm sure I could sing a Keith Urban song. Give me the rest of the show.

2:10 I'll come back to you. In 2007, Taylor Swift was Brad's opening act. Wow, did Taylor's star rise.

2:18 But she joked when she received this award, she told a story about how back in 2007 she was the victim of a practical joke, a prank by Brad, where he released thousands of live crickets onto her tour bus.

2:31 Stop it.

2:31 She said, we've been estranged ever since. That wasn't true. He was obviously invited to her wedding. But this brings us to the subject of pranks. I personally hate this. What do we think?

2:42 Is it all a bit of fun or does Brad sound annoying?

2:44 Men love them what is it with men and pranks it's like all the famous men who love to talk about because when taylor swift spoke about this she said a tour prank that went too far which suggests to me that tour pranks are like a thing yes yeah and like i know that movie set pranks are like a thing and apparently decaprio famous prankers and they're always pranking each other.

3:07 It Brad Pitt and George Clooney are absolutely right and I always remember this. This is the only time I see Leo kind of break is when Leonardo DiCaprio and Jonah Hill talk about their weird, they have like online viral pranking things where they come up to each other on the street.

3:20 Oh my God, I've seen photos of this.

3:22 And it's the only time that I go, oh, maybe Leonardo DiCaprio does have a sense of humour.

3:26 They have too much time on their hands, these men.

3:29 I agree.

3:29 We've been on tour, right? Yeah. And I know we're not exactly touring like Taylor Swift is touring, but like there isn't time for long and elaborate pranks. We're too stressed out. If you guys prank me on tour, I'd quit. I can't do that.

3:42 Maybe women are too busy getting their hair and makeup done and in that time men are like practical jokes.

3:47 I think that men love pranks. Because, well, maybe I should start the other way around. I think women don't love pranks the same way because we've got excellent senses of humour, of course. We're funny and witty and smart. Not all of us. No, not. Go on, Holly, finish that sentence. But people are. Women are. Not all women.

4:11 But practical jokes usually, let's be honest, rely on someone being embarrassed, humiliated, shamed in public. Like there's got to be a moment where you are like, what?

4:22 I think women are scared enough in their day-to-day lives without having someone going boo.

4:27 It's like I was already scared today.

4:29 I was already terrified that something was going to happen that would compromise my safety. And so this thing of like releasing crickets, like that's funny to a man because he wasn't scared today. But like to a woman, I just feel like it's incredibly annoying. I don't feel it's fair to the crickets. Yeah, Peter will have a few things to say about that. Would you find that funny?

4:48 I don't mind a prank, but my whole thing is like the filming of a prank because I feel like we've now come to the point where it's like, did the prank really happen if it wasn't filmed and posted on TikTok and went viral? I'm okay being embarrassed in that little moment, but if my embarrassment has to live on on people's feeds.

5:05 Forever and ever and ever, no thank you.

5:07 Or if it's a prank that you actually were, like, if it's something you were really excited of and it's like a prank. So if you came up to me and like, hey, Em, great news. You're getting a huge promotion at work. We're having a big celebration. And they get to the celebration. They're like, you're not getting a promotion.

5:22 Prank.

5:22 Like, that's me. That was a very blokey thing to do. Sometimes when we're discussing what to talk about on this show, an article or an idea just catches fire in our meeting in the morning. So someone will say, Have you read the blah, blah, blah? And then everybody just wants to chime in. And that's what happened with this story in psychology today. When I tell you the headline, you're going to know why. Well, you already know why, but I'll stop talking now. It's Friday. I'm tired. It's been a long week. The headline is, do partners need to love each other equally? A small difference in love may be better than perfect equality. Equality. Equality. Equality. When we read that out in the meeting, everybody had an immediate opinion.

6:07 So first of all, just immediate hot take opinion before we go into the where's and why for's of this. Is that true? Do partners need to love each other equally? Yes or no? Emily Vernon.

6:18 No.

6:18 Oh.

6:19 No.

6:19 I think yes. I think yes.

6:22 Okay.

6:23 Okay. I'll get back to you, Amber. I need to know why. I'm not ready to fight today. Like other pop psych moments, we might not need any more justification or description. And that's a bit like, let them. It's like, I get it. This is, do people need to love each other equally or does there need to be a gap?

6:40 But the guy who wrote this article in the name of science, Aaron Ben-Ziv, he writes a couple of thousand words on this topic. And he writes basically about how mutual love, like you've got for a relationship to be successful. This is a romantic relationship. between, you know, whatever genders. Mutual love is essential, but precisely equal amounts of love are neither necessary nor possible, he says. Greater relational power might increase temptation, but temptation doesn't necessarily result in infidelity.

7:07 So that's another thing he says. And a small asymmetry in love is tolerable or even enriching, but a large gap can undermine intimacy and commitment. So what he's saying is, There is a Goldilocks amount that you should either be loved or love more for your relationship to stay interesting and enduring. Because he's like, if the gap is too big, if one person in a relationship is outsizedly obsessed with the other, it's not going to work. But if there is a smallish gap, it can keep things interesting. And Vernon, why did you immediately say that? no or yes or whatever you said. I said no. I kind of agree with that.

7:52 I think it was a few years ago I wrote this article called The Flip in Relationships and I kind of stole that from Dolly Alderton with one of her books. I think it was good material where it's a concept of every healthy relationship does have a dynamic where one person's the chaser and one person's the manager and And the chaser is the one who loves a bit more than the manager. So the chaser is the one who's just like, there, I love that person. I'm here for a really good time. And the manager is the one who kind of like sets the relationship up. So they're like, okay, in this amount of time, I want to think about like doing our finances or moving in here or getting married here. And then what's meant to happen with the

8:32 flip is that those roles flip constantly throughout the relationship. So you're not always meant to be the chaser. You're meant to like be a chaser for a bit, and then be the manager, and then be the chaser, and then be the manager. And when it becomes unhealthy, which is kind of similar to what he's saying with the gap, is when you're in those roles for majority of the relationship, and then it does a big flip, and then that's where things go wrong.

8:54 Yeah, I think I'm with you, actually, in that I think the equality lies in the fact it changes all the time. So there's overall an equal kind of feeling of love. I think this is why love languages are important too because you can't ever really know how much someone loves you.

9:13 I was going to say it's unknowable. Surely we can't read somebody's actual feelings. Exactly.

9:19 I reckon there probably are couples though where there's maybe a stated understanding that one.

9:27 loves the other more.

9:28 And I remember growing up, a friend's mum said it all the time. She said that the secret to a happy marriage is marrying a man, and this was very heteronormative, who loves you more than you love him. And I think that that was about power in the era she grew up in, maybe, which is that women, their power came from, you know, maybe a few generations ago. Their power more so came from who they were married to.

9:52 But I don't think that I agree with that. But I do reckon that love can be equal but expressed in different ways. One person might be really good at verbalizing it and the other one might be really good at acts of service or whatever it is.

10:05 That advice that your friend's mom gives is kind of quite classic old school advice, isn't it?

10:11 Right?

10:11 Marry a man who loves you more is like the kind of thing you hear people say on rom-coms and stuff and one of the reasons i think to your point about the time is that this piece of wisdom i saw from nancy chowdhury in substax she was saying go with what generations of women before us have known choose a man who loves you not just the one you love right because that's very wise because it's like you can be obsessed with somebody but if they don't love you back because women and obviously massive generalizations and heteronormative Women might be more nurturing by nature. So they might pour more into any relationship, friendship, romantic relationship, parent relationship, familial relationship than a man might do naturally. And so

10:56 if you already... are really invested in thinking somebody's wonderful and you don't really know whether they think you're wonderful, you're going to over-index on your care for them and then that puts you in a very vulnerable position.

11:09 There's also this thing called the principle of least interest and that is the idea that the person who cares the least holds the most power. And I think that's really true, that the person in a relationship who gives the least, who appears to maybe not be as committed, they're actually the engine of the entire relationship. And the other one is constantly working to make them interested or make them.

11:31 That sounds exhausting though, like if you're the one constantly working.

11:35 But I don't think that sounds good.

11:37 No, but I can also see like that's where, like if you exist in those roles, like for your whole relationship and then say the person who cares the least then starts caring a lot. Like what happens to the relationship then? Does it just like implode?

11:50 I think this is why moments of transformation, individual moments of transformation in a relationship can rock them so much. Whether that's like someone going, we were talking on a subscriber episode recently about how Elon Musk's first wife knew him.

12:04 Before he was rich.

12:05 And then he becomes this enormously rich guy and it's like whatever that does to the power dynamic or who needs more, whatever it is, throws it out.

12:13 Well, this is the thing, right, because... You can ask this question in a very sort of esoteric way about should they love you more or whatever, but the thing about long-term relationships is it also, you can't get away from who needs the other person more, right? And again, in a very traditional model, it would have once been that the woman would need the man for, to your point about what your grandmother's generation would say.

12:35 Security, yeah.

12:36 For security, for literally to put food on the table. Now, that's not the case anymore, happily, in most relationships. But equally, the person who does most of the caring is probably more needed than the person who doesn't. The person who brings more resource to the relationship is needed. So it's like all these things, if there are major imbalances, are going to be big points of conflict at some point or another. But back to the idea of like, How could you ever know whether someone loves anyone more? I reckon, I don't really subscribe to that advice either. I think that really you should aim to be in a relationship where you care about each other equally as much as you can. But if you ran through some couples that

13:20 you either know or are famous and in the public eye's names, I bet you could guess who loves each other. Or we all have a view on that.

13:26 Ooh.

13:26 Like, everyone has a view that, like, Tom Holland and Zendaya, everybody thinks that he loves her more. Now, that probably isn't true. And there's a lot of prejudice that comes with that assumption, which is that, you know, is she slightly out of his league? Like, physically. professionally, whatever, that might not be true. When they're at home, it might be very much the other way around.

13:47 Yeah.

13:47 But we all get that vibe. And I reckon if we went through some of our, even people in our lives, we'd be able to, we'd go, it's him, it's her, it's them. Do you think Harry loves Meghan more?

13:57 There's an idea when it comes to sacrifice that you kind of go, I think he's sort of a.

14:03 Maybe he's more demonstrative or something than she is.

14:06 But, yeah. I reckon, like, again, caveat, no effing idea. But my stereotype about that relationship is, yes, she was like an anchor thrown to him at a really difficult time. And she, again, so the thing about who needs who more and all those things is you could argue that she needs him more because he's the more high profile.

14:26 He's a prince, for God's sake.

14:27 But.

14:28 If you read his biography and you watch what's happening, he was clearly a really unhappy man in a really difficult family. And he got thrown this, like... What do you call them? A rubber ring of love. A rubber ring of love from Megs who's from California and she's like pouring out her love everywhere and cares a lot about things. And he was like, this is changing my life.

14:50 So maybe he loves her more. Interesting. Can you think of any others? I have advice for couples. Oh, please, please do. Because you're very wise.

14:58 Yeah, to know if you love your partner more. I think every night when you go to bed, you go to your partner and be like, hey, today I loved you this much. Or like, I loved you from the bed to the door and back again.

15:11 And then that's like a physical.

15:12 And then they'll be like, oh, I loved you to the moon and back. And you're like, oh, okay.

15:15 And then we can work things out. Because you're seeing like physically how much you've loved them. We've got to get a scale.

15:20 Yes, a scale.

15:20 Because otherwise there's confusion. That's so true. What about Timothy and Kylie? I think she loves him more, do you think? Oh, is that just my?

15:29 No, that was my gut.

15:30 I think that we've just got to talk about our gut. I think she sees him as like her silly little guy and she's like, that's my guy. No, I think she sees him as like Oscar winner.

15:38 Oh, no.

15:38 Lewis Hamilton and Kim Kardashian.

15:42 I think he's more into her, but I think that I have no reason.

15:46 To think that. He did buy them a dog. Okay, there you go. That's all I thought. Okay. How about Kendall? Travis and Taylor. Travis and Taylor.

15:57 Oh.

15:58 He loves. And Bernie Blanco?

16:00 Yeah.

16:01 Oh, yeah.

16:01 Travis and Taylor. He loves them all. I agree. You reckon? You reckon? Definitely. I reckon he cannot believe his luck. As he should feel that way. And we cannot believe she's writing these songs. Benny and Selina. Equal-ish. Equal-ish. Equal-ish.

16:27 And then, okay, if we go Jacob Elordi and Kendall. Oh, yeah, sorry, Jacob Elordi and Kendall, very important. I think she likes him more.

16:32 Yeah, I do too. I don't even think he likes her.

16:34 What?

16:35 No, no, no.

16:36 I don't think Jacob likes anyone. I think that Jacob is going to. break up like he's going to be a heartbreaker for the next 10 years of his life he's yeah I hope so how about George and Amal George likes Amal more.

16:46 Oh 100% oh it's good that we know so much yeah I mean just just one more disclaimer we have no idea everybody this is just our vibes Friday it's Friday.

16:58 Out loud is in a moment what happens when your private life suddenly goes.

17:02 Viral I'm on the brink of losing my housing and I don't know what to do anymore. Over a month ago, my roommate informed me she didn't want to resign with me for very stupid reasons. I've made videos about it. She said that I could stay instead and that she would leave. And then like two weeks go by and she changes her mind and I had to find out from the landlord that she was leaving again. And I was given 24 hours to find a new roommate. We're bringing a personal guarantor and I wound up finding someone which was really great. I warned her upfront that leave if this is too much. The drama has been stupid.

17:33 She did wind up backing out and I reassured her. I was like, there are no hard feelings. I don't wish this stress on anyone. I'm now facing this final week by myself. I don't know what I'm going to do. I may try to ask the landlord to just let me pay the entire month of July's rent to buy me time to find someone. I can try to rush and find a new roommate.

17:54 I don't know, dude.

17:54 This has been agonizing. I've moved so many times the last year of living in New York. I'm on my fifth sublet now. And I know the life that I signed up for by being a full-time artist in New York City. Mamdani gave a speech after the Knicks won. And I don't have like all the words memorized, but he was like, what is New York if not your back is up against the wall, your dream just out of reach, unsure how you'll make your next rent payment.

18:19 and looking at those 99.6% odds that are against you and smiling because in that 0.4%, New Yorkers find a way.

18:30 Why do I now know so much about that woman's mental situation?

18:34 I love how she says there are no hard feelings and then she calls us stupid multiple times.

18:38 Yeah, there's also a really excellent quote from Mamdani about living in New York City in that video.

18:44 Yeah, when she quotes Mamdani, you know that, yeah. Who is this person, Em?

18:48 So this is a TikToker named EK. Initials only, EK. She's an artist living in New York City and she has close to 80,000 TikTok followers.

18:57 Not shabby.

18:58 And her TikTok account went viral when she started doing this video series that she labeled as her fuck-ass roommate situation.

19:06 Oh, man.

19:06 There is no drama like roommate drama. I have had a large era of my life that was wall-to-wall roommate drama. So it's 30-ish videos.

19:16 And basically the videos are always done on her fire escape outside her apartment. And it's her just speaking to camera about the roommate situation. And her issue with her roommate is that Her roommate sometimes tells her she doesn't want to re-sign the lease with her, or she does want to re-sign, but she wants her to move out, or she's moving out and she can stay.

19:35 So she pretty much is like in this area of like, I don't know where I'm going to be living. And she's turned this into a whole series and people wanted to know?

19:42 People are just obsessed with it. And this happened earlier this year. However, a few days ago, The Cut published an article titled, My Roommate Made a 30-Part TikTok Series Dragging Me. It started with an argument over a diss track and ended with viral videos and death threats.

20:00 Oh, my God.

20:01 And the roommate in question is named Marilyn Rodriguez, and she is also a TikToker, and this was her response to the TikTok series. Oh, we have both sides of the story. So I'm going to read a passage from the article. The first real incident, and this is from Marilyn's point of view about EK. The first real incident we had was over a dish rack. I'd had the same Amazon dish rack for three years with no dishes breaking.

20:25 One morning, she texted me that she broke my wine glass and said we should get a new rack. The dish she broke was one my friend had gotten me on a trip. I was upset and told her I'd had the rack for three years without anything breaking and asked her to please be more considerate and mindful. Over text, she told me she was sorry. She offered to pay me back, but I didn't want the money.

20:45 Is this sponsored content for the dish rack? The Amazon dish rack. Excuse me. People who live in houses together, something's going to break. Something's going to happen. That's like life. Okay, another incident.

20:58 So EK allegedly told Marilyn that she didn't want to share any food or condiments or spices. Oh, this is always a battleground. Not only that, but she didn't want any of their food to touch.

21:09 That's weird. Unless she has anaphylaxis. Maybe.

21:12 So Marilyn was like, okay, so these two shelves in the cupboards and the fridge are mine. And these two shelves in the fridge and cupboards as yours. Someone always eats your yogurt when you're living with them. And the thing is, is that EK started buying two of everything. So now they have three of everything. So they have like three tomato sauces, three mayonnaise. And because EK has so much food, she started putting her food on Marilyn's shelf.

21:34 Oh.

21:34 So Marilyn said, she messaged her and she was like, you literally wanted our stuff separated. Please keep it as such. And then EK replied saying she didn't know it would be a problem.

21:45 Can you imagine? Everything's going to be a problem. Is this generational, Em, that I can't imagine, like I'm living in a flat with one other person and we hate each other. And we're just communicating via text message about shit in your fridge, on your dish rack. Why does anyone want to stay in this situation?

22:05 Because of parental prices.

22:07 Yes.

22:07 And I guess it's like once you've got a good– place to live, like technically, you just go, I don't want to leave this place.

22:16 I don't want to leave this suburb, I don't want to leave this situation.

22:18 I paid my bond. But here's a wild thought about that, and I know I'm a people pleaser, so I'll take... Then shut the fuck up and make nice. Like, if you both have to live there because it's the only affordable place to live... and you've got to get along, then that's why you zip it. That's why sometimes you're nice and you zip it. But I think they're making it work for them. So you know how I said EK is an artist?

22:39 Yes.

22:40 So a lot of her videos will be like, my roommate did this and this and this. She's such an evil bitch. Also, I've just dropped a new art collection. The link is in the bio. So I'm like, okay, marketing. This is what they're doing. Okay, so we're hustling.

22:53 We're hustling. Which I appreciate.

22:55 But it does appear that these– Two people, we're now two from two. I don't want to live with either of you, by the way.

23:00 Absolutely not. Have no conflict resolution skills. No.

23:04 So this is, it is so much easier and we've all done it where something has annoyed you and you go and vent. And I think that that's an important social tool because sometimes it doesn't have to be confrontational.

23:15 You can go and vent.

23:16 But this is now they can go and vent to 80,000 people and get all the validation that they're right and the other person is wrong.

23:22 And these videos are reaching like 9 million views.

23:25 Yeah.

23:25 And the issue with that is that you're only getting one side of the story.

23:28 Of course. Nine million people want to tune into the roommate drama.

23:31 And that's how she found out about it. So the one, is that her name, the other one?

23:37 Marilyn. Marilyn.

23:38 Okay, so Marilyn was on her burner account and I'm like, oh my God, we have multiple TikTok accounts. Everyone here needs more paid employment.

23:45 I will say.

23:46 But we need burner accounts because what if, like, you're making videos about me and blocking me so I don't see them?

23:51 Exactly.

23:52 I have my 30-part series called My Nightmare Podcast co-host and it's just me bitching about him.

23:58 This is what– so I get that, right? You know how Nora Ephron once said everything is copy? And that quote– has a lot to answer for because... She did not mean to talk. She did not mean this, did she? No. But also it's the way that writers and creators, if we have to call these people that, justify stealing things from their lives and other people's things. Like, we all do it. Like, I'm a writer and I do it all the time. But not like that. But, you know, something happens and you think that'll make a good story, right?

24:26 Or that's inspiring a story or whatever.

24:28 Right.

24:28 But the problem here is if you're bitching about your roommate and you're getting a lot of views, and so as you say, it's like a perpetual, that's going to perpetuate it. Oh, I'm going to bitch some more. Oh, I really wanted to do something worse. But the real life situation here must be so tense.

24:45 Yeah, they weren't even speaking. They were just texting.

24:47 If you've still got to go and walk into that flat and open the fridge and find your tomato sauce... And the other thing was, why didn't I think of this? All those years when I was living, I lived for a long time, about four years, in this big shared house in Coogee in Sydney. And we had lots of coming and going housemates and so much. We could have made so much TikTok. There was like the time. That's your next book. The time we found a whole marijuana plantation in the back shed and none of the housemates would admit to who it was. There was the one when we had a rat infestation, but one of my housemates was like a dabbling Buddhist and he wouldn't let us kill any of them. There was like sex through

25:25 the walls. There was someone who decided one day wanted all the rent adjusted based on a centimetre accurate measurements of the floor plans of all of our bedrooms. I actually co-signed that. I could have made a million TikToks. This is what living with people is like.

25:40 The issue with making the TikToks as opposed to potentially being fodder for your next novel is them being identifiable.

25:48 So that's what's happened here. And then Marilyn, people know who she is.

25:51 They can go to her TikTok and suddenly she's getting death threats and people saying, go back to where you came from because she happens to be Mexican.

25:58 And it's like, I just hope.

25:59 That EK over here realises that she's responsible for everything that's said about that person that she's kind of thrown into the public eye.

26:08 Sphere like that.

26:09 It reminds me of, I see this all the time in community Facebook groups.

26:13 Yes, they are very ripe for this kind of stuff.

26:16 It's scary.

26:16 Yes, it's like there's so much surveillance going on. The one that I see all the time, I always send it to my sister, is like, If your nanny was wearing a red T-shirt and a green hat today, then when she was pushing your son on the swing, she was actually on her phone. That's the one I feel at the time and I'm like, hey, that probably wasn't the nanny. It was probably the mum and she gets to check her phone.

26:38 I have a Facebook group, Horror Story, where I was called out. Tell me.

26:42 Okay, so this is when I was living in the east in Sydney and I think people are there a bit, no offence, Jessie, crazy.

26:49 Yeah.

26:51 I am an absolute imposter and I can confirm.

26:54 That I'm crazy.

26:55 There was a photo of this big like rubbish pile. Firstly, I was living in this apartment and I think I went to take my rubbish downstairs and all the bins were full. So I just put my rubbish like next to a bin, which maybe I shouldn't have done.

27:06 I do that in my home. My husband definitely wants to make a TikTok series about it.

27:09 People didn't like it.

27:10 So someone who was walking past took a photo and was like, someone in this Potts Point, because I'm going to be honest, it was Potts Point.

27:19 Someone in Potts.

27:20 Point left their rubbish near the bin and didn't put it in. And because it was my Uber Eats, it had my name written on the back.

27:30 Well, that's karma, darling. And then I removed myself from the group. Because I was so scared. Small town regional Facebook groups are also completely batshit. Every post is like a writing prompt. This is This is why the creators are doing this, right? Is that, back to the point about everything being copy, every story, there was one around where I live recently that was just like, if you would like to attend the alternate memorial for Betty, because everyone at the other one's an arsehole, we'll be having it.

28:02 And you're just like that, pass the fucking popcorn. What happened to Betty? I need to know. And it's just like, but the thing is, is whether having the chutzpah to then like violate everybody's privacy, put all your dirty washing out. Like, is that creative genius or is it just being a bad human?

28:22 Well, it, It's not good and it's not good for anyone, but then it's sort of on us because we consume it, don't we?

28:28 It's like that TikTok series.

28:31 I mean, I think that the crimes probably sound a little small scale to me, I must say. But there's obviously something universal about irritating roommates where people are like, okay, I'm going to jump on this. I want to have a side. Like micro petty dramas is... feel low stakes and therefore we can go and have some fun with that rather than this big election over here. And so I think we get to play with it. But in reality, these are real people who are going to cop real shit for being dragged on the internet.

29:00 I just have an aversion.

29:01 Anytime I see something where I go, okay, that was cowardly. I see people pop up all the time with like a story about a teacher, like my child's.

29:10 Teacher did this. And I go, You're the crazy one.

29:13 You're the problem. That's just what I feel like saying, but I don't.

29:18 After the break, we have got some things for you to read and to watch and to put on your head for this week's recommendations. It's recommendations time because it's Friday. Em, go first.

29:31 Okay, I've got a product from a brand called B-O-U-F.

29:36 Boof?

29:37 Boof?

29:37 B-O-U-F.

29:38 Boof. Boof.

29:39 Boof.

29:40 Boof.

29:41 It's got a viral dry shampoo that I have been considering trying.

29:43 It is really good, but I'm recommending they have a new hair perfume.

29:49 Oh, Which I didn't know I needed a hair perfume. Well, I don't think you do need a hair perfume.

29:53 Does this happen to you guys when you wash your hair with like a really nice smelling shampoo and conditioner and your hair smells great, but then if you blow dry it, the scent goes and then your hair just smells like hot hair?

30:05 Burning?

30:06 Yes, and I also find that if I am in any, for example, a restaurant, and sometimes I can smell like the.

30:12 Food I go on. And the garlic comes in your hair.

30:14 And then I wake up the next morning, I'm like, my hair smells like it and not my, I mean, I use cheap shampoo.

30:19 Guys, don't you just squirt a bit of perfume on me?

30:21 Okay, so I was doing that and now my hair is dry AF. And I've got all the, it looks like ratty and I think it's the perfume. So then I started using this one, like the proper hair perfume, because it also doubles as like a shine coat. So it makes my hair smooth and it also smells nice. I think it's around $ 40 at Priceline, which I would say is a bit too expensive.

30:41 What does it smell like? Does it smell as good as a Meghan candle? It smells, like, very sweet. So you know, like, how shampoo.

30:48 Scents are, like, really concentrated because then it goes, like, all over your hair and then you wash it out? So it is, like, a very concentrated smell. But once you spray it all over, it lessens it a little bit. So it's, like, florally and sweet. And I've got some nice compliments on it. I'm going to come over and smell you. Hey, sidebar, where do you squirt perfume when you wear perfume?

31:05 Neck and wrists. Wrists. Crutch? I thought I was going to. Surely, crotch. Oh, my God.

31:11 That's going to give you an infection of the vagina.

31:14 You can't squat. You can't squat too much. Your pH is not.

31:17 Going to be good.

31:17 You go, ch, ch, ch.

31:19 Can you?

31:20 I go, ch, ch, ch. On your hair?

31:24 Top of my head.

31:26 Because I'm short, so it can, like, waft up to everybody like this. That's quite a nice idea, I suppose. I thought we were meant to do wrists. Well, I think you are because of this. It goes through the... Because then you do this, right?

31:35 Yeah.

31:36 Tell me you've got your pants on when you do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, pants on.

31:39 And make sure, like, your perfume isn't too, like, squirty because then it could look like a mistake.

31:44 You're insane. I'm glad we cleared that up. I'm going to go next because I do have one of a really obvious reco because everybody is already watching this show. I haven't started it. But season four of The Diplomat is so good. It's so good. Because I've loved the last three seasons.

32:01 I haven't started the next one. I feel like I'm waiting for it to fail me and it still hasn't failed me.

32:05 Well, actually, I wobbled on The Diplomat. I can't remember if it was season two or season three. Sometimes I don't know what's going on, right? The thing about The Diplomat, if you don't know, it's a Netflix show. It stars Kerry Russell, who is... heaven in it like i love i do it did used to bother me that basically her character no is she doesn't brush her hair that was it like we're conveying a great deal with the lack of a comb um but it works for her and us i love her and she is a diplomat and she is married to another diplomat who is now the vice president of the u.s rufus saul very excellent bad bad man and It did lose me somewhere in the detail in two and three because it's very talky,

32:43 isn't it? The diplomat. It's very like thinks it's the West Wing. Lots of banter, banter, banter. And there's lots of stuff about like international incidents and everyone's got a name that I can't remember. The stakes are always high and I never know what the stakes are. There was something about a boat or a submarine, but I'm not. Yeah, submarine.

32:58 But.

32:58 But I don't really care because the core of this show for me is that marriage. And back to what we were talking about before about relationships and who holds the power. That's really one of the themes in this season in particular. Both their relationship, so Kerry Russell, so rather Kate and Hal's relationship and the power dynamic that's always shifting is fascinating. And he says to her several times in this that, That, you know, it's hard being with someone who you think you're always going to lose, isn't it? Because that keeps switching between them, depending on who.

33:29 And it's interesting to watch her be sort of more, a little bit more excited by him. Now he's in a more powerful job. Like, it's really interesting.

33:37 They had a seesaw the whole series. That's the arc, right?

33:39 Yeah.

33:40 And then there's another relationship in it between Idra and the guy whose name I can't remember. And that's also, it's kind of about the politics, politics and relationship politics at the same time. Also the president, Alison Janney. I just adore her and everything. And for West Wing nerds like me, the fact that she's married to.

34:00 Oh, it's going to drive me crazy. Josh, she's married to Josh, who's played by Bradley Whitford, is heaven. And their power dynamic is interesting. So I'm thoroughly loving it. I couldn't necessarily tell you what was happening. Me neither. Absolutely loving it. So if... you want to, if you're wondering whether Diplomat Season 4 is worth it in my book, 100% worth it. Jessie, you've got a book. I have a book.

34:24 It is, it has been called the breakout novel of the year. Dua Lipa, Sarah Jessica Parker, all the people have recommended this book. It is called Lost Lambs. I read it while I was on maternity leave.

34:35 Oh my God.

34:35 I'm like a few, I think I only have like a few pages left.

34:39 Oh.

34:39 Remember, I was reading it on the plane. It's so good.

34:42 The number one word I would use to describe it is weird. And people keep thinking that there's typos in the first few chapters.

34:49 It's not typos. She's just doing something very clever. Oh, excellent.

34:52 It has become an international bestseller. It is about a family called the Flynn family. It's like a mom and a dad and the three daughters. And I love books that do this, that follow each of them.

35:01 They all have their narrative arcs.

35:03 And everything kind of gets quite chaotic when the parents decide to open their marriage and like everyone's aware of it. But it's sort of about conspiracy theories and a small town in the US and all their storylines eventually intersect in a really clever way. But more than anything, it's just incredibly original and witty and clever. And when I just read something and I go, I've never read anything like that before.

35:30 Oh, I love that.

35:32 What an incredible idea. It's just very, very fresh. So it's called Lost Lambs.

35:37 It's great. It's so funny.

35:38 I was like giggling out loud when I was reading it. And I remember a friend recommended it to me and she, because it came out earlier this year, and she said, read it towards the end of the year because after I read it, nothing else compared.

35:49 Oh.

35:49 And I was like, okay. That's a big call. It's really good. I know we're out of sidebars because I'm sure our producers are like this. But I flew with them this week and we sat next to each other on the plane.

35:59 Oh, yeah.

36:00 And I learned something about her that I didn't know. She goes into her bag, she pulls out a Nintendo Switch.

36:06 Okay.

36:07 Like my son, who's 14.

36:08 Yeah.

36:10 And she just sits there on the plane playing a little game. I don't even know what game. Hogwarts Legacy. It's so good. I put in 32 hours in that game.

36:17 What?

36:18 I think I'm only like 50% of the way through. Wow. So I didn't know this about my Em that she's a gamer. I respect it. I'm a Slytherin, if anyone cares. Oh, you're a Slytherin.

36:28 Yeah.

36:28 You'd be Ravenclaw. You'd be Hufflepuff.

36:31 Yeah.

36:31 I do agree with that. I'd be Gryffindor. Come on.

36:35 I can't believe you have a, I'm going to call it a Game Boy.

36:39 She does have a Game Boy. It's a Switch. It's a Switch. But no, I love. I didn't know you were a gamer. It's very interesting. Anyway, traveling with your workmates. We often don't sit together when we fly. But this time we did and it was good. I had a little snore. Holly loves napping on planes. And doesn't snore.

36:58 I do sleep with my mouth open though because I wake up like. I'm an ugly sleeper. Ugly sleeper. So I try to fight it, but it doesn't always work. Anyway, that's all we've got time for, I think, this week. It's been a big week. Yeah. We will be back in your ears out louders on Monday. Thank you to our amazing team for helping us put the show together as they always do through thick and thin, sickness and health.

37:23 Here we are. Love yous. We'll see you all on Monday.

37:26 Bye.

37:28 Bye.

37:28 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.