552 - She Was Such A Cat

Hello.

And welcome.

To my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Heartstar?

That's Karen Kilkeriff. Real deep for some reason.

Yeah. I went all the way down to the basement. Wow. Because I'm going to bring up a case of good times in podcasting.

Are you ready? Yes. Crack me a cold one.

I'm going to put on my bathing suit and we're going to have a party in the basement.

A bathing suit in the basement? Listen. That sounds dirty.

It is.

I'm not trying to be dirty. I'm not trying to be dirty. Like just gross, not like dirty. Oh, dirty in the basement. Like dusty.

Someone needs to clean down here. Like put more clothes on. That's what you think. But once the bathing suit's on and the party begins, you don't care.

Is there like a pool in the basement?

Not in mine.

Okay.

Have you ever seen that viral picture of the people who have the above ground pool in a basement?

No.

It's so funny. They have a light hanging directly over the top.

Because you could do that.

You can, but you could easily be electrocuted terribly. Oh, that, right. Or have any number of, like, there's a reason they have those rules, I think.

Indoor pools have always kind of creeped me out because I'm from the, where am I from?

Southern California.

Southern California. I was like, east, west, that we don't have them. Right. So you go to like a hotel in the Midwest or someone's house even that has an indoor pool, it's like. This is weird. Why is their carpet so close to fucking water? What are you swingers up to?

Yeah, that's what it all is about is this is swingers casserole time. There was a lot of those in Northern California because we're a lot colder up there. But also there's a lot of hippie geodesic domes that would just be out in like a field. And then I remember finding out that my friend to this day, Craig Machado, His family had an indoor in-ground pool.

Richie Rich.

Inside this geodesic dome that I just.

What kind of family owns a geodesic dome?

Well, it looked much more like people had it there for farm reasons or for like building reasons.

Okay. It's like a weather situation.

It was like half. Half dome like on the ground.

Okay.

As opposed to like I think you're thinking of like it wasn't like up in the air.

Okay. Like Joshua Tree, like sound bath style. No, that's what I'm thinking. Did you go to that thing? I've never been to the Integratron.

The Integratron.

Somehow I've skipped it.

We went.

How was it? Amazing. Tell people what it is. It's like this geodesic fucking dome.

It's finally I get to talk about geodesic domes the way I've been trying to.

That's why I said. It's your new podcast. What if that's a.

I have a weird thing where I'm trying to flex by knowing what geodesic domes are.

And knowing, like, a lot about them. And 1929 was their big year for it.

They built this one in Joshua Tree. There's one in Joshua Tree that a man built. Of course a man built it. A man built it. What else are they doing besides building geodesic domes and sound bathing people against their will? So he built it because he had a feeling he maybe would be able to communicate with people.

Maybe outer space.

Oh.

And he disappeared. And all of his studies and writings disappeared. Stop it. Along with him disappearing. And I was going to cover it when we did Pasadena. No. On our tour. But that's kind of the whole story I just told.

Like there's nothing more to it.

There's a little more to it.

Yeah. Not enough. Wow. Okay.

And you can go there now and get wonderful sound bathing done.

I've never done sound bathing as a sensory gal before. Everything's a little too loud for me. I don't care how loud it is. It's just fucking a little too loud. I don't think I want to do it.

So this past 10 years has been living hell for you. It's been really bad. It's so loud.

Hold on.

What are you doing? I need a tissue.

My nose is running just from the thought of it. Do you have one over there? They got lost in the remodel. In the rebrand? Oh, they're in the corner here. Keep them close.

I've got a spill coming on.

Back to geodesic domes and sound bathing.

And we're back.

Murderinos, are you into sound bathing?

Write our Gmail at soundbath.net. Here's the experience I had with the sound bathing. I knew I had tension to release and, like, this will help me. The first, I would say, seven minutes, pure torture because everyone else is into it. And I'm like, why can't I just be into things the way other people are into things?

Yeah. Totally.

20 minutes later, I don't know where I am. Like, it takes over you. Because it's sound waves and it's like doing something to you.

It really like bathes your brain.

I found that it did. Okay.

I'll try it. I really liked it. I'll try it with earplugs.

And on your Kindle.

That's right. Yeah. Cool. What were we talking about?

We were talking about bathing suits in the basement.

That's where it started. What else?

But rewatching The Sopranos.

No, that was you. Yeah.

I'm saying.

What?

I'm answering my own question.

I thought you said.

You went like this.

I thought you said, were you watching The Sopranos? And I was like, no.

I'm like, dash re-watching The Sopranos.

Re-watching The Sopranos makes more sense than were you watching The Sopranos. Yeah.

When I know for a fact I did and you didn't. That's like what a true narcissist would do in conversation.

Well, so we're all watching The Sopranos, right?

Everybody, right? Oh, you're not?

Anyway. Are you going to do the Lizzie Borden biopic, do you think?

Sure.

I'll do it too. Okay. Let's do it together. Teen.

That was placed for half an hour before this recording started. Is it a movie or TV?

It's TV. It's, you know, Ryan Murphy monster kind of a thing. Oh. Like that. Some sort of a watch-along? Yeah, like the Dahmer one. Right, right.

But I'm saying, should we do a watch-along?

Will we? I think by the time this episode comes out, there's going to be... Do they all come out at once?

No, I don't think they let Ryan Murphy do that.

By the time we come back next week, let's have watched both of the episodes.

But let's not talk about it.

Let's do not talk about it. That's the rule of our watch game is... Is drop it. It's just like a series of winks and nods.

But ixnay on the.

Hawkingtay. E-watchray.

Hey, Georgia, all episodes of Lizzie Borden are out. So a lot of homework for you two.

Okay, this just in. Thanks, Molly. All the episodes. Ryan Murphy has gotten the green light to release all the episodes of Lizzie Borden, whatever it's called.

Molly, has it been going or did they do a mass release? I think a big release.

Yeah. So we'll watch it next week.

Should we get to business?

Sure.

Because I have nothing else. Oh, I got a manicure.

Congratulations. But I'm not trying to brag. Clearly you are. I have that horrible thing where when you get a gel manicure, but like can't bring yourself to go back to the place. So you just have.

You're peeling it slowly.

No, it just looks terrible. Oh, yeah.

But let's see how long it lasts.

I know.

Could go months.

Well, listen, while the world is still turning, we have a podcast network. out there.

Let's focus on the fundamentals.

That's right. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

So this is very exciting. Our own Roz Hernandez, host of Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, is hitting the road and bringing the paranormal straight to a city near you. So head to rozhernandestour.com for dates and tickets.

And if you think that's exciting... Grow up. Because last week, Roz was the guest host on The Bald and the Beautiful with Trixie Mattel. You can watch it on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Such a gem, all of them.

Truly love that show. Love Trixie. Love Katya so much. This just popped into my head. But one day after I figured out and learned who Trixie and Katya were, however many years ago, I was still on Twitter. It was that long ago. I remember looking on my phone and looking it up and Katya was already following me.

Oh, my God.

That's one of those like you step into a world where you're like, I didn't know what this world was.

This whole time I've been popular and I didn't even know it.

Popular to the one person who matters. Now, here's more exciting news. Two of our hottest podcasts, Buried Bones and Disgraceland. We'll be heading out to sea this March for Virgin Voyages' True Crime Voyage.

How fun.

They're taking it out onto a cruise ship. Have you ever wanted to talk to Paul Holes over a big plate of shrimp at the buffet? Well, now's your chance. Booking is open at virginvoyages.com.

That's going to be a riot.

That's going to be nutso. Just like a ton of true crime devotees on a very fancy boat.

Who's going to know the most about true crime?

Paul Holes.

And tomorrow on My Favorite Murder, we've got a special Cars.com bonus advice episode where we just fucking give you guys advice. We just give advice. It's coming to your audio feeds and the fan cult members can watch the exclusive video at fancult.supercast.com.

I mean, we are sincerely trying to help people.

Yeah, we would never steer you wrong on purpose.

We're really earnest, so you're going to love it.

We are.

Then over in Merch Corner, we just premiered our brand new, you're going to love it, MFM animated merch. Check this out. Nick Terry has made us this beautiful design, which is a lineup design of all the characters you've ever loved from a Nick Terry animated video. They're in a lineup. Me and Georgia are bookending everybody.

It's so good.

Just looking at it, it's just so delightful. So there's this tote. There is a mug, of course, a beautiful large mug for people who really drink coffee like myself.

Wrap around, which I like because you don't have to decide which way you're going to drink it from.

No, and you can just hold it up and stare at it. I actually— Nicole, I would love to steal this at the end of this record. And then, of course, there's one of them slap koozies.

Okay, this is so cool. Someone gave us one of these when we were on tour. I didn't know they existed yet because of my small cans of rosé that I don't drink anymore. But you can just put it on any size can. Yes. Which is so genius.

And you get to slap it around.

I'm just going to fucking wear this.

Yeah. Yeah, Wonder Woman. So go to TheExactlyRightStore.com to get any and all of these wonderful pieces of merch. And check out the newest MFME Animated episode on And the entire catalog of MFM animated clips over at MyFavoriteMurder.com slash MFM animated.

Smash. What if I just. Incredible.

Rip that slap koozie in half.

Wonder Woman. All right.

That's it. We've done it.

I know I'm first because mine is a rough one. Okay. And it's one I feel like I've been waiting to do for a long time because, well, let's get into it.

Okay. Here, I'm going to tell you this.

What?

One of our clips came up organically on my TikTok.

Uh-huh.

Very jarring. Don't love it.

You can block us.

That's my world.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden, we're coming into it. Oh, God. But you were the first person in the clip and you had your glasses on. And I was like, those do look cute on her.

Yes. They're super cute. You doubted my adorableness and glasses?

Well, it's hard to see sometimes from inside the machine.

Sure.

But I was out there, Joe Lunchpail, watching TikTok like anybody. And I was like, who's this bespectacled gal?

How do you feel about being on a Lunchpail?

I couldn't be prouder.

So let's get all the All that out of the way? Yep, it's out. This story can be grouped in with some of the stories that we've covered in the past, including the 1991 yogurt shop murders in Austin, Texas, and the 1993 Brown's chicken murders in Palatine, Illinois. Those were episodes 70 and 263, respectively. In both those cases, and the one I'm going to tell you today, employees and customers were shot and killed by an unknown gunman, and the cases went cold. Mm-hmm. And while both of those cold cases were finally solved, giving some modicum of relief for the victims' families, the one I'm going to tell you today is still waiting for answers. And that's one of the reasons I haven't covered it is because it totally,

I've been expecting it to be solved since we started this podcast. Yeah. This is the story of the Lane Bryant murders.

I've never heard of that.

The main source for the story is reporting from the Chicago Tribune, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. There's also a documentary about it called Who Killed These Women? So it's February 2nd, 2008, and we're in Tinley Park, which is a Chicago suburb southwest of the city, like 30 miles out of the city.

Have you heard of it? No. Tinley Park. So I know when we say, like, it's a suburb of some city, we always kind of imagine, like, if it's a suburb of Detroit or Chicago or Los Angeles, you think to yourself, well, there's got to be a little bit of rough and tumble going on because— Those can be dangerous cities, big cities like that, right? That's not this. That's like if we went to the valley in Encino and it's like it's a suburb of Los Angeles, but it's really completely different from Los Angeles.

Just like a nice little town.

A nice little town. And it's considered extremely safe. And in fact, a short time after the story takes place, Tinley Park will be named as the best place in America to raise a family by business week. Wow. So that's how safe it is, how unbelievable it was to everyone who lived there that this happened there. So it's about 1040 a.m. on a chilly Saturday morning when a 911 dispatcher takes a call. The caller whispers into the phone and says, quote, Lane Bryant. And the dispatcher asks, quote, where at? And the caller whispers, quote, Tinley Park, hurry.

And you can listen to the 911 call.

No, I cannot. I know. 911 dispatch operators are some of the bravest people there are.

Yeah.

Because you are first there for a person in a horrible situation.

And every word matters. Like you have to pick up on every single thing that's going on immediately. So the Tinley Park Lane Bryant store is in a shopping center called the Brookside Marketplace. It's a pretty typical like newer suburban neighborhood shopping center populated by an anchor store. It's the Target Superstore. And then some chain businesses. It's like when you're growing up to five and you stop for coffee at one of the like Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Just beige.

Like a big, fancy strip mall kind of. Yeah, yeah.

In fact, Lane Bryant is next door to a Sally's Beauty. Like, it's just so normal. And so it just so happens that a police officer is at the Target when the 911 call comes in. So within two minutes, police arrive at the store. Wow. That's how quick it is. What he finds is horrifying. Six women, all bound and gagged and all shot dead. execution style. Miraculously, one woman turned her head as she was shot and then played dead as the perp fled. So her identity has never been made public. To protect her safety and her privacy, what we know is she is a 33-year-old employee of the store.

And from her account, we get a full timeline of what happened. So the 911 caller turns out to have been the store manager. She is a 42-year-old woman named Rhoda McFarland. And so Rhoda and the survivor opened the store together that day at 10 a.m. And Rhoda, the manager, wasn't supposed to be working that day. But she had come in to help because another employee, it was her birthday, and she gave her the day off. And that was the kind of person she was. So she came in to help. because she knew it would be busy. They were running a clearance sale. Rhoda had been a nurse practitioner in the Air Force and a minister and ran a self-esteem program for girls called Princess Unveiled. She had recently gotten engaged. She had initially started working at the

store to make ends meet while she was between jobs, but she loved the job so much she stayed. And I mean, every single person who talks about her talks about what an incredible, you know, light up the room woman, take the shirt off her back for anyone kind of person she was. So shortly after Rhoda and the other employee opened the store, one or two of the other women came into the store as well. They're shopping. It's not totally clear on which women came in what order, but at some point a man enters the store and starts talking to Rhoda and the woman who's the survivor.

And it seems as though both women had the impression that he was a delivery man. He had come in with some paperwork, and said he had a delivery for them. But Rhoda was like, there's no delivery scheduled today. And also they knew the delivery people. They were pretty much the same people every time. So that was strange. But it sounds like Rhoda wasn't particularly concerned about this man and really believed he was who he said he was because she called a few other nearby Lane Bryant stores to see if their store had received their delivery by mistake.

And so who knows what's going on in her mind at the time. It's, you know, we only have one person's panicked retelling of the story, you know. So after about 15 minutes of this, the man suddenly pulls out a. 40 caliber Glock handgun and says that he's robbing the store. He empties the register, which probably only had a couple hundred bucks in it. They had just opened. Yeah. And also it's 2008. No one's using cash anymore, really. Yeah.

And has the two employees and the two customers hand over all their jewelry to him. And then he brings the four women to the back of the store and and has them lie down on the floor, binds their hands together with duct tape that I believe he brought in. He also gropes at least one of the women at this point. He also gets underwear from inside the store and puts it over their heads to prevent them being able to see, which he had been there already for like 15 minutes talking to them. It's just such an odd thing to do. At this point, two more customers come in the store, and the man robs each of them at gunpoint, demanding that they hand over their money and valuables. And according to the survivor, the man just

became more and more agitated as time went on. And it's such an odd case, and we can get into it, that it doesn't seem like a typical robbery in any way. He didn't lock the door. There's only a couple hundred bucks. He took the money and jewelry from the victims and then didn't leave. It just doesn't. It makes sense. And then why Elaine Bryant to begin with? There's like so many other shops in the area.

But also if he's groping women, if he's putting underwear on people, there's a fetish aspect potentially. I don't know. But that to me feels like part of it where it's disorganized because it may be like inspired by something that he isn't totally in control of.

Right. It's like misleading.

And he probably was never there to rob anybody.

Totally. Totally. So according to the survivor, the man becomes more and more agitated as time goes on. And it seems like his plan had been just to rob customers as they came in the store. But he was becoming frustrated when he realized this was not going to get him a lot of money and valuables. So after about 40 minutes of watching the man become more and more erratic, Rhoda makes that 911 phone call that we heard about in the beginning. Wow. So brave of her to do that.

And I think that just speaks to her personality so much is that she put herself at peril and to try to help these girls. And it sounds like she could have run out the exit, but she wouldn't have left them behind. So she stayed to call 911. The line goes dead abruptly, leading investigators to believe that the man had then discovered her making the call, panicked, and then he shoots all the women. So in addition to Rhoda, the other victims are Sarah Zufransky, who is just 22 years old. She had just graduated from Northern Illinois University.

She had been shopping for work clothes, having recently started her first full-time job. Sarah worked at an insurance company where her dad, Ted, also worked, and the two would commute together on the train every day. She loved board games like Cranium and the Bears trivia contests. There's also Carrie Hudak-Chuzo, who's 33, and she's a social worker. Her family and husband describe her as bubbly and opinionated. And she had been looking forward excitedly to becoming an aunt.

At every opportunity, she would bug her brother and sister-in-law, who she was best friends with, to name the baby after her. Carrie's career was dedicated to working with at-risk children and teenagers, and she volunteered with additional programs in her spare time. Wow. Connie Woolfolk is 37 and works as a mortgage lender. She had founded an organization called the Unity Coalition, meant to celebrate diversity and fight prejudice in Chicago's southern suburbs. She had been the president of the Illinois chapter of the National Coalition Building Institute, and she had two sons, one who's 16 and one who's 10, who had spina bifida and depended on his mom for a lot of daily care. She was going to meet

friends for a rare girls' night out and wanted to find a new outfit to wear, and that's what she was doing at Lane Bryant. I know. And it's believed Connie fought back because she had defensive wounds, which is one of the ways that they got DNA from the attacker. Wow. I know. Jenny Bishop is 34. She had been an ICU nurse at South Bend Memorial Hospital in South Bend, Indiana, and had only been in town with her husband, who had been attending a conference nearby. The two have three children.

The youngest is a baby, about six months old, and the other two are five and seven. Wow. And so here's a photo of the five victims. Hmm. I mean, it's just so hard to imagine the wrong place at the wrong time. But that's not enough of an explanation to, like, make me be able to fall asleep at night, you know? Right.

These wonderful women who had so much to give, just senselessly murdered.

And held captive before. 40 minutes is such a long time to be like, have your life threatened with a gun. Totally. And, you know.

Just be in fear. Yeah. Yeah. It's just.

And such an odd, that idea that he was keeping the store open and letting people come in is such a sign of a damaged mind. Right.

I mean, for the investigators, it's to them said that this is an inexperienced person. robber. It maybe had more to do with drugs or something like that. And they looked into every single person who was there or who was supposed to be there, other employees, and they could just find no ties to this person whatsoever. And a lot of the theories are like, this person had this in their background, that person, but I don't even want to get into them because there's no leads that are correct.

And that's just speculation and victim blaming. And we don't want to do that. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And then here's the Lane Bryant crime scene from outside. It reminds me so much of the yogurt shop murders where it's just such a normal fucking place that you just go after work or whenever. And it becomes this just horrible scene.

So the first officer on the scene, right after the line went dead, as I said, he had been at the Target. And then more officers show up quickly after that. But the shooter is gone. So he was there within a minute or two, let's say. And there's no trace of the shooter. And it's a Saturday morning, so it's probably not that crowded there. Just gone. So actually, we have this incredible resource of our Gmail of people writing us in throughout the years. We got an email in 2017 from a woman named Dana, who it turns out worked at the Sally next door.

Oh, wow.

To Lane Bryant and was there that morning and emailed us. and said, I work at a retail chain in Tinley Park, Illinois. It's a newer plaza with very little stores. On the strip of the side we were on, just us to one other store, a few vacancies, and past that a couple more. One Saturday morning, I was in the back working at my desk when I heard a few quick clinking noises. Sounded like someone dropped a metal display next door.

It made me look up for my papers. I looked behind me to see if my boss heard it, but she was on the phone and did not. I looked back down, not thinking anything of it. Five minutes later, coming from the front of the store, hello, hello, anybody here? Sometimes customers get cranky when they don't see a sales associate immediately. Assuming it was just that, I walked to the front and said, be right there. Much to my surprise, it was a frazzled police officer. He immediately yells at me to lock the doors and asks if I had seen anyone. I told him, no, we just opened and it's just me and my boss here. He runs out yelling, lock the door. A minute later, still frazzled, he comes back and starts asking me questions. Who came into the

store today? Did you notice anything strange? And then said, all caps, it's a bloodbath over there, pointing next door. Stay inside and do not go anywhere. And that's from Dana. That's just part of the email, but there's a lot more about what happened and how, you know, horrifying it was, I'm sure, for Dana.

Dana was, like, on the scene, like, witnessing without realizing it.

Yeah.

That's... So scary.

And if you chose one store over, that's where she was. I mean, it's incredible. And she was in the documentary. It's called Who Killed These Women? The Tinley Park Five. Got a little bit of a corny reenactment opening, but then there's some good interviews in it. So police lock down the shopping center and go through every store and stop cars on the way out. But this turns up zero leads ever. Investigators believe the shooter might have managed to get to the I-80, which is right by. It's so close, meaning you could get on it and get out of town very quickly. And there's no surveillance in the area at the time. It's like 2008. So it's kind of seems like on the cusp of that. I know a lot of stores had like security cameras that

weren't hooked up to anything just to scare people off shoplifting. Right. But Lane Bryant didn't have any security cameras. There was a camera pointed at the shopping center from across the busy road, and this footage captured one SUV and one sedan, which both pulled in front of the store while the assailant was already inside and left at around 1047, right around when the shooter would have fled, which leads investigators to think there's an accomplice, but that might just be a red herring. Hmm. So the footage of those vehicles did not capture license plate and the exact vehicles have never been tracked down. So it's just he could have gone out the back door and just ran into the fields or actually had a car back there. Yeah. Because

we don't know which way he fled.

Of all the disorganization of the rest of the attack.

Right.

Then he just gets away clean and scot-free. Like, why can't that part also be screwed up?

Yeah. They have everything they need, including DNA and just no suspect. Right. So frustrating. So frustrating. So investigators also have DNA from a coffee cup that he may have left behind and samples from the crime scene. But it has either not matched any profiles in any database or the sample was not good enough to use. I think they have it. The killer also left shell casings at the scene. So the survivor is actually able to give police a detailed description of what this man looked like.

And you imagine if she hadn't made it. how much less you'd have to go on. And the fact that she was able to do this and it still didn't lead anything has to just feel so awful for her. The description is used to make a sketch, which is widely shown on the news. The survivor says he was between 5'9 and 6'2. He looked to be in his mid-20s to mid-30s and had a broad, solid build. She says he was black with a medium, dark skin tone, and his hair was styled in wide cornrows, about five braids total. which came to about his chin. And most of the braids were straight back towards his neck, but one was loose, hanging by his cheek with four light green beads at the end. Like she was able to remember to that level.

Amazing.

Yeah. He also wore a gray beanie and he was wearing dark jeans with an embroidered letter G on the back, which was a brand insignia. And he was well-groomed and his fingernails appeared to be manicured. So here's a photo of the 3D sketch that later came out based on the regular sketch. It's pretty generic.

Yeah.

But you've got to imagine someone would recognize their brother or their friend or, you know. In addition to the sketch, the audio from the 911 call is released because in it you can faintly hear the shooter's voice in the background as he gets more and more agitated. And he's yelling at the women or something. You know, he's yelling at someone. It's really hard to make out exactly what he's saying, but they think it includes the words, I'm losing it and foolishness. I heard the word bullshit. They also think there's something about, like, you want to be a hero. But it's really, really hard to tell what the voice is saying. But it's clear there's someone yelling in it and maybe someone will recognize his voice. And

that's why they released it. And remember, the Brown's Chicken Massacre, that was solved because the ex-girlfriend of one of the killers came forward.

Yeah.

So why not in this one, too?

The people who maybe at the time of the crime felt like they didn't have the power or the ability to say anything.

Right.

And then with a little time, the distance changes.

Shortly after the murders, a $ 55, 000 reward, primarily sponsored by Elaine Bryant's parent company, is offered for information leading to the gunman's arrest. And Elaine Bryant also offered to pay for the victim's funerals. There aren't really many major theories aside from like a botched robbery and just random speculation, as I said, about this having something to do with someone's private life, which I'm just not even going to get into. A few days after the murders, the survivor, can you imagine? And they've never given out her name.

I think there's a first name, but I don't know if it's real or not. The investigators weren't going to say that there was a survivor, but someone leaked that there was a sixth woman who survived. So they had to just keep her identity under wraps. A few days after the murders, the survivor issues a statement addressed to the victim's loved ones, calling the women who died, quote, five of the bravest women I have ever met, end quote.

She also says, quote, please know that during the unfathomable events of that day, their thoughts were focused on you and coming home. My heart aches that they were unable to do so, end quote. In the 18 years since the murders, there have been several renewed efforts to solve the case. All of the victims' families still deeply believe that it can be solved. The Tinley Police maintains a multi-agency task force working the case and say they've investigated over 7,000 tips over the years. Wow.

That's a huge number.

Right. And it's such a small town, too. I'm sure people are so wanting to help, but... They also took the step of consulting the VDOC Society in 2016, which is the nonprofit Philadelphia-based organization of forensic experts, profilers, and criminologists that help law enforcement solve difficult cold case homicides.

But nothing yet has come out of that. And the reward money has been raised to $ 100, 000. This past February, Kerry Hudak Chuzo's brother, Mike Hudak, said, quote, this individual is not going to be caught until someone speaks up or identifies who he is, end quote. Carrie was the one who had been lobbying for her brother and sister-in-law to name their new baby after her. The baby was born, I think, a day or two after the shooting, and she's named Carrie after her auntie. And that is the story of the eminently solvable Lane Bryant murders.

I'm so glad you did that. I've never heard of it. And it's almost 20 years old.

I know. Yeah.

That's crazy. That should be.

I mean. It's got to be so frustrating for the investigators. Yeah. I think they did in our doings. as much as they can.

Well, and I think you're right in that with the yogurt shop murders and watching these other ones, watching people talk about it, watching it keep coming up, watching, I'll call it like the directive towards solution, where it's like people want to talk about that, like, oh, this is you're bad for having this interest. And it's like there's people who truly want these things solved, whether it's because they worked in that business, they knew somebody, they have it in their past, like the V-Doc Society, for example.

Those are all people that, like, I'll work overtime. I'm retired. I don't care. I want to get this done.

Yeah.

And something like that should be solved. It should get solved.

I know.

Those poor women.

Well, great job.

Thank you.

I mean, those ones are always like that.

I know. And we had a bunch of emails from listeners that were involved, like, knew someone who was involved somehow or, you know, lived in that town and just talked about how terrifying that was.

I mean— Yeah. It's so many people to be affected to when it's like a group of people like that.

Yeah.

Well, good job. I'm going to change the tone here.

Great.

As we always do. Yeah. And this one is, it'll be more satisfying.

Okay.

So I don't know if you knew, but it's Hispanic Heritage Month. And it started September 15th and goes to October 15th.

Oh, great.

So in honor of a Hispanic Heritage Month, I'm going to bring you to Houston, Texas, in the late 1970s. Mexican-American Detective Sergeant Jim Montero is sitting at his desk in the robbery division of the Houston Police Department. Jim is in his early 40s. He's been a detective for almost 20 years. And along with his own caseload, he is starting to realize that he's constantly being asked by his white colleagues to translate for all of the witnesses and the victims and the suspects that they have to interact with that don't speak English. Jim is just one of a handful of bilingual officers working for the Houston police.

And this is a time when most of the crimes reported in Houston's Hispanic neighborhoods go unsolved. In 1979 alone, Wow. If that feels high to you, it is, because in 2025, they reported 270 homicides. Oh, my God. Like, one-third the amount. I mean, I was going to say a third, but I can't do math, so.

Approximately.

We're approximate statisticians here. And yet the clearance rate for those crimes at the time is around 20 percent, whereas murders involving white or black victims have clearance rates of around 70 percent.

Wow.

So it's obvious to Jim that the language barrier is what's driving this disparity. So he goes to his police chief and convinces him that they need more Spanish language interpreters.

Mm-hmm.

Jim's given the green light to assemble a small, temporary, bilingual task force made up of himself and other Spanish-speaking patrol officers, anyone he can find. He's told it'll be a 90-day pilot program, and once they're done, he'll go back to the robbery division and the others will go back on patrol. Turns out, in those 90 days, the task force Jim puts together will not only make history, but it'll change the Houston Police Department forever. This is the story of the Houston Police Department's Chicano Squad. Wow.

Have you ever heard of this? Me either.

Not even when we were in Texas doing stories.

I know. Wow. So the main sources used today are articles from the Houston Chronicle and a two-part A & E documentary called The Chicano Squad. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, of course, since it's 1979, when Detective Jim Montero starts putting this Spanish-speaking task force of, hey, let us be in this conversation and enable people to actually speak when they're interacting with the police, this is a time when the Houston Police Department's reputation is, simply put, by Marin, who's very careful with her words, in the gutter. Many people who live in Houston see the police department as a corrupt, racist boys club, notorious not only for regularly harassing Hispanic and Latino residents on the streets, but for discriminating against

black and brown department applicants to basically ensure that they maintain mostly a white police force. As one black Houstonian told a reporter in 1980, quote, Wow. That's terrifying.

Yeah.

So Jim Montero is especially qualified to understand the problem in front of him. There's the language barrier, but there's also such a deep mistrust of the police that many black and brown people just simply will not talk to police officers at all.

Jim knows.

This lack of communication is a giant roadblock to the investigative work that they want to do. And he believes it's vital his fellow translators aren't just bilingual, but that they were either raised in or now live in these Spanish-speaking neighborhoods where these crimes are taking place so that some sort of trust can finally be established where there's never been any before. So he recruits six patrol officers there.

who fit this criteria. And they are 26-year-old Cecil Mosqueda, 28-year-old Joe Salvera Jr., 33-year-old UP Hernandez, 29-year-old Robert Gatewood, 38-year-old Jose de Leon, and then, of course, Jim Montero, who is the leader.

That is the most 70s photo I've ever seen. Was it that you had to speak Spanish to be in this or that you had to have or be able to grow a really nice mustache? Absolutely.

Because that seems to be highly required.

We're going to need a wide-stripe tie. Please.

And here's what's really funny. This is a point that comes up later. But when they first put this task force together, they give them a tiny office with one desk and one typewriter.

For all of them?

For everybody. And that's it. I like to think that's the office where they just had to stand around like shoulder to shoulder and talk about crimes. So the officers that Jim Montero pulls from patrol, they have between three years experience and 10 years experience. Many people would call a lot of them rookies just because they're still patrol officers.

Some of them are at the top of their game of being patrol officers. They're not yet detectives. Some of them basically, after three years, it's like they just joined.

Plus they're probably not given a lot of chances to advance because of the racism.

Right. The roadblocks are everywhere. The first issue that the team deals with together is what to wear because everybody but Jim just wears a uniform every day. So Jim tells them, quote, You're going to wear the best clothes you've got, suit, sport coats, shine shoes, and comb your hair. Look good because when you're coming down the hall, they're going to be looking at you and they'll want to find something wrong.

Wow.

End quote.

I also imagine that the people they're speaking to, the victims and the perpetrators, don't want to see you in a cop uniform. They don't trust that to begin with.

Yes, exactly. But they want to know they're talking to a professional, someone that's got their act together that is going to help them.

Totally. Yeah.

I just love that because it's like when you're coming down the hall, they're going to look for something to find wrong. It's like, isn't that always the way for the marginalized?

Everything has to be perfect.

Yep. Over time.

Right.

So from day one of this task force, these guys roll in wearing their crisp suits and their beautiful coiffed hair and, of course, their majestic mustaches. They're in a 10 by 15 foot office. That's how big that office is.

Oh, my God.

It's an office like the studio, but seven guys.

Two.

It's at police headquarters. They have one desk, one chair, one typewriter, and that's it for resources. So they spend their first couple of days in the field responding to robberies, sex crimes, and homicides. And so when they arrive in the scene, they meet up with the white detectives assigned to each case and then essentially shadow them while they work, translating when needed. Then they go back to the tiny office and they wait their turn to type up their notes on the one typewriter that they have. And they work, of course, long, nonstop hours. Cecil Mosqueda, who was a member of the original task force, will later say, quote, we were confused, we were lost, but we ran with it.

So as they move from crime scene to crime scene, they can now see firsthand how much the language barrier is hampering Houston PD's investigations. In one case involving the murder of a Hispanic security guard in a Houston warehouse, the assigned white detective notes that there's a potential witness out there named, quote, Flaco. The detective has been going door to door near the crime scene hoping to find someone who can connect him with this person, Flaco. No one ever seems to know who he's talking about. The case goes nowhere. When this task force is finally looped in, they figure out The detective has misheard the Spanish word flaco, which means skinny.

Oh, wow.

This almost certainly is both a nickname and the physical description of the guy he's looking for. And when they finally find flaco, they get the information they needed. This single small correction breaks the case wide open. Consequential fixes like this start immediately. The task force is off to such a good start. that just a few days into his existence, the men arrive back to their tiny office to find a stack of 52 cold murder cases waiting for them. Each involves Spanish-speaking victims or neighborhoods with many Hispanic and Latino residents. So the men divide up the files and start looking through them. Cecil Mosqueda will later say, quote, We're sitting there on the floor.

We're reading.

In their suits. Oh, my God. We're reading, and the reports are nothing. There was nothing done, no follow-ups done, a lot of whodunits and unsolved cases, end quote. As he puts it, the white homicide detectives assigned to those cases, quote, really just didn't care, end quote. The men realize now that the expectations have shifted. Instead of following detectives out in the field and acting as basic translators, the task force has now been assigned these 52 cases, to investigate themselves.

As Jim puts it later, quote, we started out as interpreters. That lasted about a week, end quote. So here's the big problem. Of the six men on this task force, none of them have ever conducted a homicide investigation except for Jim Montero. Now it's clear that no formal training will be offered, and Jim realizes it will be up to him to give the rest of them a crash course on solving murders. So he goes and gets some index cards and on them he writes things like, quote, describe scene of offense or collect and label evidence or interrogate suspects. Each member of the task force is given an index card. And then with those cards, they just hit the streets and that's their thing they.

Have to do. Just directions of what the steps to take.

Wow. Yeah. Early on, they have a hard time finding anyone willing to talk to them. Some people assume the officers have come to start trouble like so many police have done before. Others consider them sellouts for joining such a notoriously horrible police force. Cecil will later say, quote, I knew why people felt that way. Policemen were always coming around my neighborhood. We thought they were bad, end quote.

And with good reason, of course. At the time, Houston's Mexican-American population is still reeling from the May, two years before the May 1977 murder of Of 23-year-old Vietnam War veteran Jose Campos Torres by white Houston police officers. So here's Jose. We have a picture of him from the army. He'd been arrested for drunken disorderly outside of a cantina.

But instead of taking him to jail, the officers drove him out to a remote area near a bayou. beat him to death, and then threw his body in the water.

Oh, my God.

It's kind of like the Starlight Tours.

Yeah, Starlight Express Tours.

Yeah.

Starlight Tours, yeah.

The Starlight Tours up in Canada, where it's just like it's a thing that's done, that police have done historically. So Jose Torres' body is found days later.

Oh, my God.

One officer came forward and told the truth about what happened that night, and he implicated his colleagues, and those officers were fired and charged with murder. Some of them received immunity in exchange for their testimony, while others were ultimately handed misdemeanors by an all-white jury with no jail time and a fine of $ 1.

That's almost more insulting. It is.

It's directly fucking insulting.

That is so horrific.

It's a fuck you.

Absolutely. Wow. That's just awful.

In the aftermath, some of Houston's Mexican-American activists and probably just people were They start pinning dollar bills to their shirts, reminding the rest of the city, this is what the Houston PD believes our lives are worth.

Wow.

Walking around with a dollar pinned to their shirt.

That is so powerful.

So knowing this is the history they're up against, this task force does everything they can to cultivate genuine trust. They approach people with warmth and kindness. Jim remembers, quote, we put the word out. We're not in the deportation business. We're there to help. You've got to talk to them. Get them to trust you, end quote. Then Cecil also says, quote, we did a lot of foot investigation, a lot of knock and talks. We didn't just sit there. It was hands on. We did whatever it took, end quote. So they're going door to door. They're introducing themselves. They're handing out business cards with their contact information. And they're letting people know help really is one phone call away. And

they're the people that are answering the phone. And it ends up working. Slowly, people open up to these officers, sometimes literally inviting them into their home for meals. These connections pay off almost immediately. Joe will later say, quote, somewhere in those houses, there is a senora that's always out there watering the plants or sitting on that porch that saw something.

Wow.

You get an Anglo investigator, he's not going to get that information.

Yeah.

End quote.

Wow. It's just so obvious and true to us today. But this is our real history in this country. This is the very recent past of the white boys are in charge. They'll do it how they want.

And if people of color and marginalized people are hurt or killed in the process, well, that's just the way it is. And we've all lived that way for a long time. And it's really fascinating to think of there were first people who got in there to stop to stop it and change it. And thank God it was someone like Jim Montero and all the rest of the people on this task force who were going to actually do it. They weren't just going to phone it in.

So this approach begins to foster mutual respect and it becomes crucial in many cases. Cecil Mosqueda works a homicide where witnesses refuse to talk to the white detectives. He find out it's because the officers openly mocked the murder victim for being shot to death while holding a case of beer.

Oh, my God.

Why in God's name would you be talking to that person? Why would you help that person do their job ever?

Clearly they don't care.

Cecil goes and speaks to the same witnesses and convinces them he wants to do right by the victim and right by the community. The people who know things start talking, and very soon Cecil is able to solve the case, solve an old murder case that was just going to sit there. And it's the kind of thing where I started thinking about it, like, how many police departments in how many cities across this country, that's what all the cold cases are.

Yeah.

It's who cared about who and who didn't.

Totally.

So another unsolved homicide the task force inherits involves a fatal shooting in a cantina from two years prior. There are no recorded leads, witnesses, or tips of any kind in the case file. It looks like the white detective assigned to the case just didn't do any work.

On it at all. Mm-hmm.

So the men drive over to this cantina and they introduce themselves. Hey, we're the task force. We speak Spanish. We would like to solve these murders. They matter to us. They ask a few basic questions and the bartenders immediately open up. It turns out the murder started as an argument between two men at the bar. The victim was shot in front of many horrified witnesses. But more importantly, the lack of any real investigation has left the killer emboldened.

He regularly comes back into this cantina, putting his gun on the bar when he drinks as a show of power.

Holy shit.

Now, basically, the task force can be like, the next time he comes here, call us and we will come. And that's exactly what happens. That man does come back. The bartenders have the task force number pinned behind the bar. They know who's answering the phone. So they call and say the killer's back and the team rushes down and arrests him.

Wow. It's almost like it's so ridiculous because it's not like they didn't want to give evidence and they didn't want to talk. There was just nobody to do it to like nobody to talk to. Right. Because nobody cared.

Nobody cared. And it's that's that kind of then we have to solve problems within our own. Well, we'll handle it.

Right.

And, like, just don't go near that guy next time, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Then you have to start self-policing.

Yeah.

And then, yeah.

After just one month, the task force has closed 12 homicide cases. Wow.

Joe Silvera Jr. will later say, quote, when I did my first murder, being able to bring that closure, I felt good about that. That gave me purpose.

End quote.

Because this is a street cop. Yeah. This is a beat cop. And now he's a successful detective. The cases just keep coming, not always in good faith. Some white detectives, hoping to see the task force fail, try to overwhelm them with an impossible number of unsolved investigations. A Houston Police Department colleague will tell the Houston Chronicle that, quote, they were thrown everything they had, anything that sounded like a Spanish surname, more in resentment of their existence. But these guys worked them all. They just became a trusted resource in the community.

Amazing.

So they were like, it's the thing I love the most when people do it, and it's very hard to do. It's like the Bugs Bunny move, where you're like, oh, is that what you're doing? Sounds good. I'll make a day of it. Right. I will succeed at you trying to make me fail.

Totally.

So the task force is also getting very nice press for all of this success. The media is the one that actually dubs them the Chicano squad. But of course, that brings the haters, as always. So the white detectives are angrier than ever before. Some try to take credit for the cases the Chicano squad clears. Others complain the only reason they became detectives is because they got unfair preferential treatment.

Oh, my God. Are you kidding me?

Sounds familiar. Yeah, exactly.

I've had to work twice as hard for half the respect and you're telling.

In a room a little bit bigger than a broom closet. And yeah, you're right. This is because I'm special circumstances. Cecil remembers one white officer telling him, quote, I know why y'all got in, because y'all are Hispanics. That's why. He said, we're still in the quote. He said, you're not smart enough to be promoted to detective. Oh, man, did that hit me hard. That's what motivated me. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it and to shut them down.

Hell, yeah.

End quote. Yeah, go ahead and call me stupid.

Totally.

I'll show you how stupid I am. Remember, this task force had 90 days to clear 52 cases.

Mm-hmm.

So as the task force comes to its scheduled close, Joe remembers, quote, we had in 90 days cleared 40 murder cases that were sitting in the file. It was about an 80 percent clearance rate. It's unheard of.

How? Yeah. Holy shit.

Unheard of. So they're they're like, OK, fine now. Now we've got a grudge.

Yeah.

Now we were going to prove a point.

Totally. Now we're going to show not only that we're good at this, but that you're fucking terrible at it. Look how easy it was to solve 40. Yes. That you couldn't, that are cold cases because you couldn't figure them out.

And it's like they came in and they slapped down all those. You can tell, like, just put it all on the desk.

Put the hard ones, put the, yeah.

Just whatever. And it's like, this is how bad you guys are.

Totally.

We just took care of it in our... Wonderful mustaches. So the Houston police decide they're going to turn the Chicano squad into a permanent unit. Nice. Obviously, Houston, the Hispanic population is only growing. It's so necessary. And because of this, these six men are given more resources and more manpower.

Nice.

One more typewriter. Before long, there are a dozen Spanish-speaking investigators investigating every kind of case. murders, robberies, human trafficking, and kidnapping. So this is the updated picture. In 1986, this is how big the Chicano squad had gotten. But the case the Chicano squad will say is the one they're most proud of is a kidnapping. It happens in October of 1987. A 14-month-old baby named Liliana Reyes is taken from her crib in the middle of the night by a woman who had hours before knocked on the Reyes family front door and asked for a place to sleep.

The family let her in, and the next morning, the woman and their baby, Liliana, were both gone.

Oh, my God.

Joe remembers getting the call from the juvenile division of the Houston police that morning, and he says, quote, they were saying they had a kidnapping, the victim was Hispanic, and they had no one to work the case. So I called the FBI, and they said, no, we don't have anybody who speaks Spanish here either, so it's yours, end quote.

Wow.

So this wasn't a local problem. This wasn't a Texas problem. This is governmental, national, American problem.

Of course.

So luckily it was these guys. So Joe and fellow Chicano squad member Raymond Gonzalez get to work. They get an early lead from a truck driver reporting giving a woman and a baby a ride to the U.S.-Mexico border the night of the kidnapping. They spread the word of Liliana's kidnapping. And after only a few days, their phone rings.

A tipster a thousand miles away in Puebla, Mexico, tells Joe that her daughter, who is struggling with her mental health, recently came back into town with a baby that isn't hers.

Holy shit.

So basically, they got the word out so well, especially among Spanish-speaking people, that the caller heard about Liliana's case in Texas a thousand miles away.

Wow.

So over the phone, Joe and Raymond asked this woman to check the baby out. for a very unique birthmark that she had. It turns out it's Liliana. Unbelievably, though, the Houston Police Department won't pay for the detectives to go down to Mexico to get her. So the Chicano squad does what any good American would do when corruption stands in their way or racism or anything else. They call the local news.

Nice.

Houston news channel KPRC2 steps in and fronts them the money to go on that trip. Damn. Twelve days after going missing from her crib, the Chicano squad reunites an unharmed Liliana with her family. We have the picture of that.

Oh, wow. Oh, my God. Amazing.

Look at that. Oh.

Incredible.

So this is incredible. And I think this is probably when the story and the whole idea, this is like a People magazine article waiting to happen at the Chicano squad, right?

Yeah.

In these amazing cases they've solved in these numbers. But we didn't hear about this or any of it because this all happens the same month that 18-month-old baby Jessica falls down the well.

I was going to guess baby Jessica.

Were you? Because that's also in Midland, Texas.

Oh, right. Yeah.

Wow.

So it's like we only have room for one baby in peril. We only have room for a white baby. A white baby in peril.

Well, also just the amount of coverage that went to that where it was breaking news, all cameras were on the well, the whole thing. Liliana's case can't fight through that also because she's Tejano. Right. If you would like to hear the story of baby Jessica, I did it in episode 221, Symbolic Violins. You remember. You remember. Four decades later. KPRC 2 News interviewed Liliana in 2024, and she's asked about the Chicano squad. And she says, quote, my mom made sure that I remembered for the rest of my life. She was like, this is what happened to you when you were a baby. You were a miracle.

If it wasn't for them, you would not be here. That meant the world to me. And they know this. They will forever and ever be in my heart.

Wow. End quote.

I love that mom. She's like, I don't care. This is what I mean.

You will remember. Yeah.

So in 2010, after 30 years in operation and making history as the first bilingual police unit of its kind in the United States, the Chicano squad is officially disbanded. But it's not for a bad reason. Thanks to the hard work and sacrifices of the Chicano squad, of the original Chicano squad, the Houston Police Department has many Hispanic and Latino officers now in its ranks, including the police chief.

So because of this, they just don't need to have a specialized Spanish-speaking unit anymore because a lot of their officers speak Spanish.

Amazing.

The original members of the Chicano squad are now all retired, and they respond to most praise by stating that they were simply doing their jobs. One exception is this quote from Jim Montero, the founder. He's the man that kind of made it all happen. And he said, quote, one thing I'm proud of is we never shot and killed anybody.

Wow, that's powerful.

Right? We made a lot of arrests but never had an officer involved shooting, end quote. Considering the culture at Houston PD when the task force first launched in the late 70s, this fact is incredible. Not only that, but the Chicano squad's clearance rate, which averaged overall in the 70th percentile, overall, reached an astonishing high of 91% cases cleared in 1997.

Holy shit.

And then in 2020, the Chicano squad receives a new wave of attention for their community-first approach to law enforcement after the murder of George Floyd at the hands of white Minneapolis police officers. There is a multi-part podcast about the Chicano squad that Vox Media put out. And A & E has a documentary about them where one of the executive producers is original task force member Joe Silvera's son, Sergio.

Oh, wow.

And he's quoted as saying, quote, I think the lack of trust comes when people don't feel the police are there to help them. That was one of the keys of the Chicano squad.

Squad.

The whole reason it worked was because they built a dialogue with the community and came in with the right attitude. Today, it seems that you're either pro-police or pro-community. The Chicano Squad is a great example of being both.

Oh, my God. That's amazing.

And that's the story of Houston's trailblazing, history-making Chicano Squad. Wow.

I'm so glad you did that. That was so good. Right? I did not know that. I want to listen to that podcast series. I know.

Me too.

That's incredible.

Very cool.

Great job.

Thank you.

Can I do a fucking hooray? Absolutely.

Okay.

Fucking hooray to... 17 years of me being Mimi's person. We had to put her to sleep yesterday. I know. I know. I didn't want to tell you at the beginning and bum the whole thing out.

I'm so sorry.

But, no, she had the best fucking life. She really did. She was the funniest, sweetest cat. She was, yeah. It's so hard.

We lost Mimi.

I'm sorry.

End of an era. It's so hard to lose a pet, but all I can think about is how lucky Mimi is. I was and we were to know her.

Yes. Where did you get her? How did you get her?

I actually, it's so weird. I got her at a Pasadena, I almost said flea market. That's absolutely not true. And she was covered in fleas. I got her at an animal shelter in Pasadena and it doesn't exist anymore. And so I was going to donate, say, let's donate to the Pasadena Humane Society. And then they randomly messaged me on Instagram today saying, Because they were doing a fundraiser of badly drawn animals and sent me a badly drawn photo of Mo and Cookie. So if we want to donate.

In honor of the murderinos who love Mimi.

That's right. Princess Mimi.

She was a classic.

She was.

She was such a cat.

Yeah.

And a little mean, which I love.

A little mean. I still have a scratch on my arm from her.

May it never heal.

Bite every now and then for no fucking reason.

She was a little bit in a bad mood.

Yeah.

And she's a good girl.

That's right.

I'm sorry.

Thank you. I'm lucky. Yeah. Okay. So we'll do $ 10, 000 to the Pasadena Humane Society in honor of of murderinos who loved Mimi.

Beautiful. Go adopt a mean little cat with a tiny mouth.

With a grumpy mouth.

Oh.

She is so tiny. That's what was so great about her. She just looks so angry and upset all the time, but she loved me, so it was like an honor.

Yeah, you won over a withholder.

Totally.

That's the goal in life.

That's my only goal in life.

Oh, sad.

All right. Put her in an ex-towel with.

Well.

Well, great episode. Good job.

This episode's for Mimi.

This is for Mimi.

Stay sexy.

And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

This has been an Exactly Right production.

Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

Our consulting producer is Kate Schellenbach.

Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes, and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci.

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin.

Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com and follow the show on Instagram at myfavoritemurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button. Goodbye.

552 - She Was Such A Cat

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