Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 113: Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City

0:16 Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

0:21 Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary and case updates and general chitter-chatter.

0:27 Today, we're rewinding to episode 113, which we named Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City.

0:33 We recorded this live in Salt Lake City, and this episode came out on March 22, 2018. Let's listen to the intro of episode 113. What's up, Salt Lake City? Yes. We've got to choreograph that dance. We've got to.

1:30 Someday. Hi, best friends. What's up? What's up? There is so many opportunities for screaming at these shows.

1:40 Shit. It's the best. Loving it.

1:44 It looks like there's a ghost walking somewhere to.

1:46 Their seat up there. Do you guys have ghost stashers here? Because we did not approve that. Is that the undead screaming in the back? What's happening? Oh, huge zombie contingent tonight. Yeah.

2:03 We love it.

2:05 They're like, there haven't been zombies in this theater for 25 years. That's right, I'm pulling out all the hits for the live show.

2:13 Since 1990. Thanks.

2:19 I just want to point this out really quick.

2:22 I stopped curling my hair right about here.

2:25 Can you tell?

2:27 I was just like, this sucks.

2:29 I'm bored.

2:30 If you can't see it, then it's not there.

2:34 Just always keep your head real turned. Don't let anybody come up on your hind quarter at all.

2:42 Just keep it.

2:44 Hey, hey.

2:47 Keep it to the Farrah Fawcett area.

2:49 Yeah. You wanted me to remind you, live corrections corner.

2:55 Oh, you want to do it right off the top?

2:56 Oh, do you?

2:56 Fresh and sure.

2:57 I guess I do.

2:58 Guys, so the episode dropped today.

3:04 And, oh, thanks. Thank you. It happens every Thursday.

3:09 Thank you. It's easy, you can do it yourself. It's just, you just upload it onto a computer.

3:14 It's crazy.

3:16 You just get yourself a Steven.

3:17 That's right.

3:18 Make him do everything. Steven! No, he's not here!

3:24 He's not here. Although, yeah, no, we don't bring him. But, doesn't it look like someone's standing under here?

3:34 We brought Steven's favorite skirt to use as the table. Yay!

3:37 He's very shy, so he's bent at the waist under this table.

3:41 Ow! Ow! We need a moment of silence for the relationship between Jennifer and Aniston. Jennifer Aniston and... What's his face?

3:53 Right. We'll just call him Matt. We'll just call him Matt from now on.

3:57 Mack.

3:58 Matt? Matt.

3:59 Oh. Poor babe.

4:01 Justin something. It doesn't matter anymore.

4:03 It doesn't matter. He looks really good on her arm, I must say.

4:07 I never bought it.

4:08 No? But then there's this already, already came out today that they're breaking up and then it's like, everyone's rooting for Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston back together. Nobody cares. Nobody is. And what if every fucking time you broke up with someone, everyone was like, remember that guy who cheated on you 10 fucking years ago? Everyone's hoping you guys get back together.

4:28 Marry him for the second mistaken time.

4:32 You know, though, how he has 10 kids. Everyone wants you to get back together with him.

4:37 Being a stepmom to 10 is amazing.

4:41 Fuck that shit.

4:45 Did I ever tell you the story that I know that's the secret Burbank story?

4:50 No.

4:50 Okay, this stays here in the vault. SLC.

4:53 SLC, you're in the vault now.

4:58 Can I trust you?

5:00 With a secret?

5:01 It's not really a secret.

5:03 There's a.

5:04 It's a thrift store on Riverside in Burbank. And the word on the street is, you know, it's the American Heart and Lung Association thrift store. All the old ladies are just fucking smoking butts all day.

5:18 But the word on the street is that... Because it's.

5:21 The one that's the closest to the Warner Brothers studios where they shot the television show Friends.

5:27 And when.

5:29 It first came out that Brad Pitt was cheating on Jennifer Aniston with Angelina Jolie when they were shooting some wonderful film in like in Greece or somewhere. It was that Greek one. Yeah, we know. Let's not talk about it. She took all of his clothes out of his mansion closet and drove it on down to the American Heart and Lung Association thrift store and dropped... Every item of clothing at this. Now, it's Brad Pitt's clothes. So they're all $ 11, 000 shirts.

6:04 And they smell incredible.

6:06 They smell. I always just.

6:09 Bought them just to lay face down in a pile of. No, I wouldn't. Vince, I wouldn't have done that.

6:14 They're like, do you want to smell what luck smells like? Yeah, and so normally there's a lot of wicker chairs for sale in this thrift store, and then some paperback books by James Patterson, God bless his soul. Wow.

6:30 But then for like, I'm sure, eight wonderful.

6:33 Days, it was just filled with like the highest end clothing.

6:38 That's all I can guess. That's high end. Hugo Boss. What's high end men's clothing?

6:43 Michael Kors.

6:45 We'll name everything we've seen in Macy's.

6:48 Nordstrom Rack.

6:49 What do they have?

6:51 That's all I know.

6:53 Cole Haan slip-on shoes.

6:57 There you go.

6:59 What about your outfit? Do you want to talk about it a little bit?

7:01 Well, I shop at vintage stores. Thank you, because I don't know any names of designers, and now no one can fucking blame me for wearing cheap shit, because it's old. It's vintage.

7:11 It's old.

7:11 It's fine. That's right. So this is an old dress. Thank you. Walk it on down the rug. Yeah. Yeah.

7:21 They love it.

7:22 Oh, a full square.

7:24 She's doing square footage. Loving it.

7:27 It's a new run.

7:29 You just invented the new runway. Just a big, gorgeous rectangle of rug.

7:34 On a gorgeous rug. Oriental. Rug.

7:37 Oriental. Rug.

7:39 We demand it.

7:40 Thank you whoever brought this from home.

7:42 We really appreciate you letting your foyer go bare for us.

7:47 This evening while we.

7:49 Enjoy touching it and loving it.

7:53 It'll be for sale outside in the lobby after the show. What are you wearing? I almost said, what are you doing?

8:04 What are you doing over there?

8:06 Well, I can't find shirts that fit me and I don't try to find them. I was going to buy, I swear to God, at like nine o'clock at CVS, I was going to buy a black shirt that said Burbank on the front of it.

8:21 Represent.

8:22 Because I'm a joke.

8:26 It'll be fine.

8:28 Don't worry about me.

8:29 It'll be fine. Oh, this is the last weekend away of this tour, I just realized.

8:35 We're capping it off at SLC, everybody.

8:37 Double fucking shows here. Yes.

8:41 Yes.

8:42 University of Utah.

8:43 You guys are the ones. We're doing two shows here because the first show last night, tomorrow night, where are we?

8:52 Sometime this week.

8:54 It's sold out already. So you guys are the ones who didn't wake up early the day of and then emailed, put us on Twitter saying, add another show, it's sold out. Angry at us. So that's what we did for you.

9:05 Well done.

9:05 Thank you for your advocacy.

9:10 We only listen to anger.

9:12 Thank you for using your anger constructively. That's what we mean. Use it to bring us places.

9:18 Uh-huh.

9:19 That's the way to do it.

9:21 Oh, this is my favorite murder, the podcast.

9:22 That's right.

9:23 This is Karen Kilgariff.

9:28 This is Georgia Hardstar.

9:29 Thank you. Lots of screaming time.

9:36 Where are the two voices in your head while you drive.

9:39 Or work or are.

9:41 Supposed to be doing something else?

9:45 That's right. I wrote down on this piece of paper to talk about smell like a.

9:50 Rave because a rave.

9:53 Rave oh the our shampoo and things in the hotel room smell like me when I would go to raves oh it's just this like a victoria's secret body spray smell.

10:04 It smells like grinding teeth yeah what is that tooth powder the powder of my own molars When you got the first wave of the smell of raves, what was your first emotional reaction to that smell?

10:21 Ew.

10:21 Uh-huh.

10:23 No. And then.

10:25 Dependent on how you see a thing.

10:30 How do we both know delight perfectly? It's amazing.

10:35 Because my friend Dave Messmer, one time when we were in fake college, I dropped out. I met him at the JC... in the drama department. He didn't claim to be gay yet, but he had the hugest poster of Madonna on his apartment wall that when I walked in, I went, oh, no.

10:54 Oh, no. Were you hoping to make out? And then you're like, ah, shit.

10:59 Fuck, fuck.

11:00 Whatever.

11:01 But he is my lifelong best friend, and.

11:06 Wait, what? I thought. I thought I was. You've known me two years.

11:12 Whoops.

11:12 I thought I was your lifelong.

11:13 You have actually pulled ahead of most people.

11:19 I mean, it's not hard to live in fucking Hollywood. It's like everyone's the worst person.

11:23 I mean, I had the choice of her or her husband, Vince. That was pretty much it in terms of quality people in Los Angeles.

11:32 Should we tell them what the three of us did for Valentine's Day last night?

11:38 Yeah.

11:38 We had to record on Valentine's Day. And then I was like, we were talking at like two. We're like, let's do it early. I'm like, what if Stephen has Valentine's Day plans? And then it turns out none of us have Valentine's Day plans.

11:49 Well, this is the best Stephen goes.

11:51 So as we were leaving, I was like, Vince, we should have them stay and like eat pizza or whatever, you know, for Valentine's Day. And so we asked you and you're like, great.

11:58 Of course I'm like, yes, fine.

12:03 And then we asked Steven and we're like, he kind of paused. We're like, oh, do you have a date? And he's like, I have to work on this podcast recording.

12:10 He had to go home and cut out all the bullshit, dumb parts, not fix the date.

12:19 Yeah. His date was work.

12:21 Was us. The two meanest girls in his life.

12:25 Immediately, we were like, bye, have a good night.

12:27 Go.

12:29 Go.

12:29 Get out of here.

12:30 Hurry up.

12:31 I gave him some, what are those chocolate things that we love? The Buckeyes.

12:36 Oh, yeah. We got some Buckeyes.

12:37 So he's fine. He was fine.

12:40 Buckeyes from Ohio, right?

12:41 Yeah.

12:42 Yeah.

12:42 Oh, you guys know?

12:43 All right.

12:44 So we were just in Ohio and people gave us repeatedly everywhere we went, humongous balls of peanut butter covered in chocolate. And it would be like in a Tupperware container or whatever. It'd be like, I had my mother make these for you all night last night.

12:59 We don't question it. We just fucking eat them.

13:00 We just fucking plowed them down.

13:03 Should we sit down?

13:09 Yeah, we might as well.

13:12 Oh, look at this. I'm going to stay over here.

13:16 Are you going to go way over there?

13:17 Yeah. Okay.

13:18 Look at these teeny tiny cute little kids.

13:21 This is one of the safest heights you can sit at at a cocktail table.

13:26 I guess I heard that in Utah they don't let you sit any higher than this after. That's right. After midnight.

13:32 You're not allowed to sit over eight inches above the plane of the table. This is so if you get secretly drunk at your house, you can just put your head on the table.

13:44 No, go ahead.

13:45 I'm listening.

13:45 I'm listening to your story.

13:46 I'm going to wear this. You should make this into a beautiful skirt and wear it.

13:52 This is actually, this might be the solution to my dress problem.

13:55 Yeah.

13:56 I just slip it over my shoes.

13:58 Yeah. And then I walk out like.

14:00 Fucking mum and chants type of shit.

14:02 Here, they gave you this. You can make this into a tube top.

14:05 That's gorgeous. Yes. What is this, some sort of cloth that they cut from a drape?

14:11 Yeah.

14:12 Yeah, I know theater terms. I'm of the theater. Oh, the end of that Dave story, my second best friend in the world, is we were at a party one night, and we got insanely high to the point where we could only sit on the couch, and I was definitely having a panic attack, for sure, but I hadn't had one before, so I was.

14:31 Just like, it's all ending now. I'm so young.

14:38 And then I realized I wasn't dying. It was just that Dave wouldn't stop lip syncing the D-Lite album at me from the side.

14:49 So he's like, lip syncing people when you're fucking really high.

14:52 Yeah.

14:53 So he's just like, please don't make me.

14:59 That's not even a good D-Lite song either.

15:03 No, it's just the first one. And then he continued to do it for the rest.

15:07 Oh, Jesus Christ.

15:08 Look, I'm not here to complain about Dave.

15:10 I am. I am.

15:13 That's what your murder is? Dave.

15:16 Oh, you didn't know? I killed him real quick.

15:18 I took care of Dave for you. Dave Messmer, everybody.

15:23 I'm going to kill him. Oh, I feel like we should think, even though they probably didn't do it, that this place... Caught Ted Bundy. So thanks, Utah. Salt Lake City. Oh. Thanks, guys.

15:39 I missed the verb.

15:41 Caught?

15:42 Caught.

15:44 But I thought it happened in Florida.

15:46 No, he escaped from here, right?

15:50 Oh, I see. When he jumped out of the jail window and then ran up the hill.

15:53 No, it's a different time. Hi. He escaped from Colorado.

15:59 Colorado. Sorry, hold on a second. She's still yelling and she started by, she goes, hi, I'm Celine Beck. Oh shit, you're the documentary filmmaker.

16:10 Get up here. Oh shit, get over here. Oh shit. I didn't even. I didn't know.

16:24 Oh my God. I thought it was just an audience member that's like, you need to know my first and last name before I tell you Ted Bundy facts. Holy shit. Here.

16:34 There's Vince.

16:37 Get over here. Come here.

16:39 Steven is absolutely fired. He told us you can't, you're coming tomorrow night. And so that's why we didn't know. How did he know? This was a secret.

16:48 Oh. But you immediately started yelling the second you had the chance.

16:54 I know the rules, but as soon as you said Ted Bundy escaped from here, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Let me tell you.

17:00 Just say it. How did we get it wrong just now?

17:03 So Ted escaped twice from Colorado.

17:05 Okay.

17:06 Not from here.

17:07 The second time is when he went to Ann Arbor and then went to Florida for his final killings.

17:12 Girl. Tell everyone what you do and what's happening.

17:15 We just talked about her.

17:16 I know, but maybe they didn't catch up today. We just talked about her. It's so exciting. Hi. So I am the director of Theodore the Documentary. That's coming up. Did you hear us talk about you? We talked about you.

17:30 We talked about you.

17:31 We talked about me this morning. I feel like my shit.

17:33 No, so everyone here has been tweeting at me, but I didn't want to say that I was coming tonight.

17:38 Oh. So, hi.

17:39 Hi.

17:39 I'm so glad you introduced yourself. Yeah.

17:42 I'm sorry I yelled at you.

17:43 I feel bad. You're great. Give us a hug. Thank you.

17:47 Bye.

17:48 Is she leaving? I don't know. Do you have a question?

17:50 You're going to stay for.

17:51 The show, right? Oh, fuck yeah. Okay, good. Well, if we have any questions, we'll ask you. You were like, and her name is Selena. And I'm like, oh shit, wait. That's the best thing of all time.

18:06 I just thought it was like, she was basically like, thought she was at a town hall meeting where she's like, hello, I'm Celine Beck, and I'm on the actor's track. I just want to let you know you're pretty much wrong about everything all the time.

18:18 Okay.

18:19 Thanks for podcasting. Perfection.

18:24 We miss some shit sometimes.

18:25 I mean, could you imagine if people made documentaries where they were just like, and then Ted Bundy, ten years after he actually did the thing....

18:37 We just got everything wrong.

18:38 Yep.

18:39 Do a follow-up documentary.

18:41 Okay, here's the stuff we should have looked at a little closer.

18:45 Listen. Look. Listen.

18:47 Look.

18:48 We're not perfectionists.

18:50 Certainly. And we're back.

18:55 That was a fun one all the way back in 2018. What a weird mile marker thing.

19:02 That we all live by, at least in my generation, of Jennifer Aniston's relationship. Totally.

19:07 We're just waiting and hoping for her to find love. I feel like Justin Theroux, and maybe it's just because he's friends with Amy Sedaris, I'm like, he has to be the best person ever, right?

19:18 Yes. Well, and what's weird is I remember the first movie I saw him in, and I was like, who's this hot hunk newest hunk of the week right I do think that I don't know why actors marry each other just don't do that it's not gonna work you're of course you're attracted to each other you're both really hot.

19:37 And dramatic and fun and excitement everywhere yes.

19:42 Especially if you're successful and like you know.

19:44 Totally like not to be insulting you have to be a little bit unhinged to be a in the entertainment industry, B, an actor or actress. Like that's kind of part of what it takes to like pretend to be someone totally different.

19:58 Yeah. You need a grounded earth sign. For your insanity. Sorry to be that way.

20:04 I don't even know what that means. I love when you see like such and such like Reese Witherspoon and her fucking bank executive boyfriend or her fucking architect husband.

20:16 The finance bro. Finance.

20:17 Like, yes. I guess the point is if Jennifer Aniston can't find love, is there hope for humanity? You know?

20:24 If we do enough Pilates.

20:26 And drink enough smart water.

20:27 Here's the good news.

20:29 That American Heart Association thrift store is still alive and probably thriving now more than ever on Riverside. I just drove by it the other day.

20:37 We've got to go. We've got to stop in.

20:39 We've got to.

20:40 There's anything left from him.

20:42 I got an incredible couch there that was very Laura Ingalls Wilder, but it fit for what kind of weird thing I was doing in my office at the time. Big old, very comfortable to lay on. old couch.

20:55 Do you ever think and thank your lucky stars that we, neither of us, well, me at least, you could tell me yourself, never got bedbugs or scabies or lice from all the thrifting.

21:08 I have scabies right now.

21:09 Oh, I've always had scabies. From all the thrifting we've done? Oh, yeah. There is no reason. For real.

21:17 It's like, Well, I think it's because my mother always washed everything in extra hot and would say, you're going to get scabies shopping at thrift stores.

21:25 Yeah. So you kept an eye out.

21:27 And I said, you're a classist.

21:29 You're like, I'm actually going to give the thrift store scabies. So, fuck you.

21:33 I'm bringing the filth to the St. Vincent de Paul. So, fuck everybody.

21:38 Moths. I definitely have moths. I've inherited some Meemaw's moths for sure.

21:46 I have some moths right now because I just pulled a coat, a very old coat out of the back of a closet to do a closet swipe through. And this thing was covered in these things where I was like, there's only one thing it could be.

21:59 Yeah. Moths. Can I tell you how satisfying it is? They have these, they're plug-in sticky papers with a blue light. So all the bugs are attracted to it and Get on the sticky paper, fucking RIP, you know, sorry, PETA. It is so satisfying to pick that up and see all the little critters that were going to fly in your mouth while you're sleeping and.

22:21 Instead aren't on you.

22:23 Oh, it's so good. It's so satisfying. That's really good. Yeah.

22:26 Also, I don't think PETA extends their well wishes to the insect community. I really don't.

22:30 That's the only animal I feel comfortable not hating is I love insects. Clearly, I kill them all. What else?

22:38 Did we cover it?

22:39 What else did we not talk about?

22:42 Victoria's Sacred Body Spray.

22:44 We should have done, you know what we should do on a fan call? Is a bunch of, if we can get a hold of them, 90s perfumes identifying scent test.

22:52 Mine was Apple.

22:53 Yes. Happy by Clinique.

22:55 Oh, Happy by Clinique.

22:57 We got to put Poison.

22:59 Poison Happy.

22:59 Christian Dior's Poison. Which I have an amazing, I probably have told you this, but my friend Amy Doherty that I went to high school with got her knee wrecked in like when she was a senior and she was going into the emergency room and she was wearing poison perfume and the admitting nurse goes what the hell are you wear take that off never wear that again and got like super mad at her.

23:25 Oh i love it but like also telling a nurse you're wearing poison she's like what like what that doesn't make any sense get Get out of here. Get out of here.

23:33 It was the time for dramatic colognes and perfumes.

23:36 Gina Tay, of course. Oh, I just remembered what it is. Sunflower. Oh, yeah. Remember Sunflower? I did that and then I went to Happy. Oh, I would love to smell that right now. CK1. We have to do CK1.

23:50 How many boys did you love and then you realized you just loved that CK1? That's how you really loved? Jupe.

23:55 There was a guy, one called Jupe. Jupe. And that one. Remember the commercials for Jupe? Oh, my God.

24:01 I have to look it up right now.

24:04 If we do that for the fan cult, then we also have to add in Sweet Honesty just like as a wild card.

24:09 Oh, yes. As a smeller.

24:11 Yeah. Molly, are you getting all this? Well, it's on.

24:13 Oh, yeah.

24:14 That's right. Someone's listening. Did you know?

24:16 This whole time for 10 years.

24:18 Shut up.

24:19 No, it's been recorded. Yeah. What about Liz Claiborne perfume in the triangle?

24:23 Yeah, Liz Claiborne.

24:24 That was mine for a long time. All right.

24:27 We could go on and on.

24:27 We've done it.

24:28 We've done it. Jupe. Jupe.

24:30 And there's jupe for home as well.

24:33 For him.

24:34 Home. Home.

24:37 Home jupe and away jupe.

24:38 Home jupe. Okay. All right, we've done it.

24:42 Let's get into this.

24:43 Okay.

24:44 We're fucking off on a live show?

24:46 This is unprecedented.

24:47 Truly.

24:47 Truly. All right.

24:48 Well, let's get into the stories, shall we? These are good ones.

24:51 That's right.

24:52 Also, just to get back to the live show, I remember this being a really fun show and I have the best memories of Salt Lake City performing there.

25:01 Salt Lake City was, I don't know what I was expecting, but they were so with us, like right in lockstep with us.

25:10 It was all college kids. So it was just like, And teachers and stuff. So it was so much fun.

25:14 Yeah. It felt so good. No, I totally remember. The second I saw that it was that library story, I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. This was great. Okay. Well, we're going to get into it now. Georgia had to go first this time. So this is Georgia's story about Ronnie Lee Gardner.

25:35 I go first, right? Do you? Yes. Yes. Did you go first, Les? Yes, yes, yes.

25:41 Yeah, I went first today.

25:44 We've actually just caught up with ourselves podcasting-wise. What?

25:48 It's today, today.

25:49 It's today in this world.

25:51 Fuck.

25:53 All right. Could we have some oxygen rolled out onto the stage?

25:58 So we heard that people have fainted on this stage before. Yeah. My head is a little warm right now, actually. I want to do it.

26:05 Do it.

26:05 Go down in the middle of this story.

26:07 I'll do it.

26:08 I'm here for it.

26:10 What if I have to pee and so I just pretend to faint so I can go pee and then come back?

26:15 If you fake a seizure, you can pee during it.

26:18 Oh.

26:19 Yeah.

26:19 That's what happens. Great.

26:21 Grandma, baby. Let it all go.

26:25 What if I actually have a seizure now and everyone thinks I'm faking?

26:27 Fuck.

26:28 This isn't going to work.

26:29 Just roll you up in this carpet.

26:33 Okay, this is.

26:34 If anything happened to us, we would just be taken off the stage and Celine would be right up there in one fucking second.

26:42 She's like, I actually happen to have a PowerPoint presentation of all the times they've been wrong.

26:48 That's exciting.

26:52 It is. This is the story of the murderer, Ronnie Lee Gardner, Utah.

26:59 What a dick. Is this guy a real dick?

27:03 He's a real dick. Okay. All right. This guy, Ronnie Lee Gardner, he's born in Salt Lake City, Utah. You've heard of it. On January 16th, 1961. Great. There we are. Okay.

27:15 Don't get defensive about it.

27:18 I'm establishing a time and a place. I see. He is the youngest of seven fucking children. It's not where you want to be. That's rough. His father's a heavy drinker. And when Ronnie's a toddler, he's like, you know what? I'm going to start over and try this again. And he leaves to start a new family. Which is like, you gave it a shot, and it didn't work, so maybe you shouldn't keep trying.

27:39 Yeah, get out of the family business and go into, like, mattresses or something. Right.

27:43 It's not working for you. You tried seven times. So, soon after that, Ronnie... Okay, Ronnie is an asshole. We hate him. However, he had really no chance not to be based on his childhood. I mean, it's bad. Okay, let's do it. Soon after... Little baby Ronnie is found wandering the streets in a diaper, malnourished. What? Just fucking walked away the way you used to do, but it was funny when you did it.

28:10 That's right. Because I had like pigtails and we were in the country.

28:14 And you were like supervised.

28:16 Yeah, that's right. Lightly supervised. Right.

28:20 You were 1970s something supervised.

28:22 Right.

28:22 Which meant a truck drove by every once in a while.

28:24 Yeah.

28:26 Which now would be child neglect, but back then it was how you parent.

28:30 Wait, so how old was he when this happened?

28:32 He was a toddler. Oh, okay. Fuck. Child welfare comes in and does a fail to care petition, takes him into custody, but later return him to his mother. And according to Ronnie, he was raised by an older sister and also he was sexually abused by his siblings. Sometimes he and his sister Bonnie would run away and seek refuge.

28:52 They'd be like, this home life sucks. Let's go somewhere safe. By the time he's 10 years old, Ronnie is addicted to drugs and he's allowed to have alcohol. 10? Which like my mom bought me Zima to try when I was 12. So mom, it's your fault. All of this is your fault.

29:10 I made myself a wine spritzer when I was, I think I was in seventh grade. Me and my friend Holly drank our parents' liquor and talked on the phone one time.

29:19 Oh my God.

29:20 We were just like, let's just do it.

29:21 Who cares?

29:22 You thought you were so sophisticated? I need a drink. I'm seventh grade.

29:29 I'm the youngest alcoholic in my school.

29:34 Be proud of that. So Ronnie still had a relationship with his father, but it was a really shitty relationship because his dad didn't think that ronnie was his biological kid so he and he told his son and all his siblings that all the time which is a great way to raise your kid yeah or not your kid uh that he was he so ran ronnie and his brother were arrested for stealing cowboy boots and taken to juvenile detention which i think is something you probably would have done absolutely because cowboy.

30:04 Boots technically i did steal them off of my sister right i've told this story but my sister on her fifth her sixth birthday my aunt jean gave her a pair of red cowboy boots and when she opened the box i screamed at the top of my lungs put them on and would not take them off And then I wore red cowboy boots for like two years straight.

30:24 Yeah. Finders keepers.

30:25 That's right.

30:26 Screamers keepers.

30:29 So they go to juvenile detention and his stupid father comes and takes his brother home but won't take him home because he's like, he's not my son. I'm not bailing him out. That's rough. Yeah. So Ronnie's mom eventually marries another man and they have nine children.

30:49 What in the... Yo! Catholics? In Utah? Does that even happen? Okay.

31:01 But Ronnie actually admired his stepfather because he had been in prison in the past. And he used his stepsons as lookouts while burglarizing homes.

31:09 Good. Yes. You've got to get a whole family, like a thing going. What is everybody like? Do you like to play Uno? Do you like to burglarize your neighbors?

31:18 Right.

31:19 Whatever it is.

31:20 Do it as a family.

31:21 Yes. Yes.

31:23 Um, and then, uh, buh, buh, buh, buh, bi-boop, then detention, institutions.

31:29 All right.

31:30 So by his teens, early teens, he had been in all these places locked up. While he's in the Utah State Industrial School in Ogden, uh, Ronnie has visited... Pretty good school? I think it's like a lockup. It's like a juvenile detention school. It's juvie.

31:46 Okay. Yeah.

31:48 Ronnie's visited by a man that his brother, Randy's living with, and he's like, hey, this guy, this older dude is great. His name's Jack Stat. I'm living with him. You should live with him, too.

32:00 Jack Stack?

32:01 Stat. Like, stat. Immediately? Immediately. I just say the word. You know, like, the same word I just said.

32:09 Yeah, stat. Like, stat.

32:10 Like, quickly. In 1975, so Ronnie moves in with stat and randy and become and this guy becomes an official foster parent to the boys and so ronnie at the time is saying that of his foster care it's the most stable period of his life saying jack was a good man and he tried to help us out jack was also molesting them and that was still the best home life he's experienced so it's just fucking sad it's terrible um He said, I thought life was normal. I thought that was normal. And he said he also worked as a sex worker while living with stat as well.

32:50 And he's in his teens?

32:52 Yeah. So then he meets, I don't know what year exactly, but he meets a woman named Deborah Bischoff, or a teen. I don't know how old she was either. I did my homework.

33:00 Yeah.

33:02 They meet at a Salt Lake City apartment complex where his mom lives and they fall in love. Debra describes Ronnie as very caring. He never put me through, he never put me in the rough situations he was in throughout his life. He sheltered me from that stuff.

33:16 I feel like we got to get our standards a little higher. He doesn't punch me in the face.

33:23 He doesn't take me along with burglarizing. He keeps me out of that.

33:27 Because of that, I love him so.

33:29 Yeah. In 1977, they have a daughter together. And in 1980, they have a son. But a month after his son is born, Ronnie is convicted of robbery and sent to the Utah State Prison. Want to see a picture of him? Yes. Good. Oh. I mean, I just could not put this photo up. He looks like Steven there.

33:51 Oh. Oh.

33:57 Yes. Not what you expected, right?

33:59 Neck tats and shit?

34:00 He's in court, so he's like dressed up nice.

34:02 But also leaning on your hand, leaning on your fist with your chin like that is Stephen Ray Morris to a T.

34:07 Oh my God, it is.

34:08 That's like how he podcast records.

34:12 And then he reaches his fingers out and then strokes his mustache like, I'm not fucking even making this up. I'm not even making fun of him. I mean, I am, but he really does it.

34:22 And then we look over at him and we go to say one thing to him and he goes....

34:29 Steven.

34:29 Steven, we really like you.

34:31 We do. Happy Valentine's Day.

34:34 Happy Valentine's Day.

34:36 Editing our terrible voices that you're so sick of.

34:39 So sick of. He missed some pizza and these cheese mozzarella sticks.

34:45 Yes.

34:46 They're so bad. They came with ketchup.

34:50 But the sticks themselves were perfect cylinders of mozzarella cheese that was fried. Frozen.

34:57 Like they came out of a box.

34:58 Look.

34:59 I mean, I'm not judging.

35:00 What do you want? Fucking fresh mozzarella sticks? No fucking way.

35:04 Frozen.

35:05 Old. From somewhere else.

35:07 Ketchup.

35:08 Hard to eat.

35:10 That's what I'm looking for.

35:11 I ate all of them.

35:12 Ketchup. You're like, do you remember me?

35:14 I was eating them alongside you. I'm not judging these things.

35:19 Uh we got a salad and then i ate it with my hand that's right why did i do that.

35:23 It's kind of how you wrapped up the meal it's like how you let everyone know we're done doing this it's.

35:27 Like i have to eat my quota of lettuce.

35:29 Yes seven handfuls of lettuce and we're done with.

35:32 Dinner okay um so that's ronnie in august of 1984 while in prison ronnie fakes an illness by vomiting he didn't have a fake.

35:44 Seizure There's so many ways.

35:46 I mean, he fakes an illness and he's transported the University of Utah hospital.

35:51 Is that next door?

35:54 It's in the basement.

35:59 He attacks the transportation officer at that moment and is like, fuck this, I'm out of here. He forces the officer to unlock his shackles by telling him, I guess you know that, I guess you know if that doctor comes back, I'll have to kill you both. So he makes him take off his shackles at gunpoint. And then in the course of his escape, he hits the officer so hard that he needed wires to reconstruct his face.

36:24 Fuck.

36:25 Yeah. So, like, we're not on his side anymore.

36:28 Okay. All empathy has died.

36:30 Yeah, we had him. Cowboy boots is a forgivable thing, man.

36:34 Look, I was relating to him in a very serious way right up until you said the word wire.

36:39 I know. Ugh. Reconstruct. That's not... Come on. That never goes well. Just escape.

36:46 Yeah.

36:47 Just fucking escape and let people have their face.

36:51 Then, so he's like, okay, he got out of the hospital, but he's like, how do I get the fuck out of here? He finds a dude, a medical student, who's like, hey, I'm a medical student and I ride a motorcycle. And he gets on the back of the motorcycle with the guy, holds the gun to his back and is like, get me the fuck out of here as if it's like fucking James Bond or some shit.

37:12 Yes. Yes. I have to say I kind of like that because you know that medical student was a cocky motherfucker.

37:20 So it's just like, yeah.

37:21 How about if we hold the gun to you every once in a while, you son of a bitch?

37:25 And if nothing else, he had the coolest story to tell on Monday. Exactly. You know what I mean? Totally. A, he's the cool doctor who fucking rides a motorcycle. Which is like, if you're a doctor and you're doing that, you don't care about yourself.

37:38 That's right. You're taking your own pills for sure. Because you see what happens to people who ride motorcycles and fix them. Their faces need reconstruction. It's a serious wire situation. And you're like, I'm going to get one.

37:54 Too, though. That's right. That's exactly right.

37:58 Well, we've ripped doctors a new one.

38:00 And everyone who came here on a motorcycle. It's half the crowd is doctors, the other half is from a motorcycle club. They're like, oh.

38:12 You didn't know this university was a teaching hospital?

38:16 Almost everyone here is in medicine in some way.

38:19 Well, when I faint, nobody come save me. I'm faking it.

38:23 Um. Pop a wheelie? Just, like, blaze on out of the parking lot?

38:30 Later days. Okay. Boop, boop. Letter.

38:33 Okay.

38:34 Okay. On August 11th, so he gets out of there, and then after he escapes, he puts the firearm gun, that's copy and pasted, the gun and a note into a mailbox. Um, and in it, he writes, here's the gun and the wallet taken from the guard. So he gives the wallet back. He's like, sorry about the face. He didn't apologize for that. Um, taken from the guard.

39:04 I don't want to hurt no one else. I just want to be free. So he returns and he's like, just not coming back.

39:08 Well, that's kind of nice. Right.

39:10 But then please, please hold.

39:12 Yes.

39:13 Okay. Um, all right. So he gets, he's on October 9th, 1984. He's fucked up on cocaine and And he goes to a place called Cheers Tavern. Totally forgot to say if it was still there.

39:25 Oh, like the TV show?

39:28 Do you have a tube?

39:30 Remake here?

39:34 I don't know.

39:35 Is it? Are Norman Cliff, like, sitting at the end of the bar? Animatronic Norman Cliff?

39:41 Oh, why hasn't that happened yet? Oh, fuck. After party at Cheers.

39:47 Um.

39:48 Cheers, Tavern.

39:49 Oh, my God.

39:50 Okay.

39:50 Sam Malone's in the balcony. I'm so excited.

39:52 And his mustache. So he goes there to rob the place, right? What? He had a mustache.

40:00 Sam Malone?

40:01 He had a mustache.

40:02 Are you thinking of the, you're thinking of Cliff Clavin, the mailman.

40:05 Yeah. He had one too.

40:07 Girl, don't do this.

40:08 Okay. Where were we?

40:10 All right.

40:10 Well, here, let's stop laughing because he's fucked up on Coke. He goes to Rob Cheers Tavern and he ends up shooting the bartender at Melvin John Otterstrom in the face, killing him. And Ronnie makes off with less than a hundred fucking dollars too. Um, Then Ronnie goes to fucking Melvin John Otterstrom's funeral and pretends to be a childhood friend. What?

40:35 What a dick.

40:36 Like, that to me is, like, crosses the line between, like, you were fucked up and shot someone and you suck. But, like, it's just so creepy.

40:45 It's... No, that's super creepy.

40:47 Yeah. Sociopath.

40:48 Also, how is that the same guy that puts the wallet back in the fucking mailbox and is like, sorry for your troubles?

40:54 No, it's, I don't know.

40:56 That's, wow.

40:57 Here's a photo of, um, of, where did it go? Oh, that's not the right page.

41:04 So, like, basically, he went to.

41:05 This guy's funeral and, like, mingled enough so that he was telling people who he was?

41:10 I guess.

41:11 Fuck.

41:12 Yeah. This is Melvin John Otterstrom, uh, Boop.

41:17 Aww.

41:18 Look how cute he is. And then, okay, so. Okay, three weeks later, Ronnie gets captured at the home of his cousin. And once he's captured, Ronnie says that the shooting occurred because Otter Shrimp had up a fight, but investigators didn't find any evidence to support that. Which I'm like, it's still your fucking fault, dude. Like, even if he put up a fight for his fucking life, it's still your fault.

41:42 Also, you're on coke.

41:43 You don't know what's fucking going on.

41:44 That's true.

41:45 Like, you're... No.

41:49 Ronnie's held in custody. His getaway driver testifies against him. So, during the trial for this murder on April 2nd, 1985, at the Metropolin... Metropolin? Metropolitan.

42:02 That's right.

42:03 Fuck!

42:04 You got it, though.

42:06 Third charm. Third try's a charm.

42:09 Wow. Because it looks like Metropolis, and then it changed. You know what I mean? Like, it could go either way in the beginning. But it's not. It's Metropolitan.

42:20 You know the Metropolin.

42:23 You know that word I've known for fucking the 37 years I've been on this planet that I just didn't see. Metropolitan Hall of Justice in Salt Lake City. So Ronnie gets a smug... Someone smuggles him a fucking revolver. Revolver?

42:40 Yes.

42:41 Revolver at his trial and Ronnie attempts to escape. He fucking has his gun. Who did it? We'll get there.

42:49 Okay, okay.

42:50 Um... He has his gun. He's immediately shot in the chest by the guard, Luther Hensley, but he continues on his fucking escape with a fucking gunshot wound to the chest.

43:04 Was he still on coke?

43:05 Probably. Okay. He wounds an unarmed bailiff named George Nick Kirk by shooting him in the abdomen and then ran into the courtroom archives where attorneys Rob Macri and Michael Burdell are. So they're just like in the fucking archives being like, boop, boop, boop.

43:24 Going like, we love law. Let's look at some old ones.

43:27 Let's see what we can find about this.

43:29 These stories are incredible.

43:31 Yeah.

43:31 Let's memorize every fucking word.

43:33 Yeah. Like, we don't even... We're not even on trial today.

43:37 Yeah, we're just loving law.

43:38 Yeah. So Gardner... Ronnie comes in, points the gun at them, and then he aims at Burdell, who'd been... He was there looking up shit for his pro bono work for his church. So, like, you couldn't be there for, like, a more honest reason. And Ronnie shoots him in the eye and then runs outside of the building... where he's surrounded by dozens of police officers.

44:03 Police softeners.

44:04 Fuck.

44:07 Sorry.

44:07 No.

44:08 But that's a good one.

44:11 Police softeners. It's like woolite.

44:14 Yeah. For cops.

44:18 He drops the gun and yells, don't shoot.

44:20 I don't have a gun. But I'm like, neither do the fucking people you just shot, you dick.

44:23 Yeah, that's right.

44:23 You know what I mean?

44:24 Sorry. This might be a dumb question.

44:26 Okay.

44:28 The guy that he shot in the eye?

44:30 You just keep jumping ahead.

44:31 Okay. No more. No more from me.

44:36 He dies.

44:37 Oh.

44:37 I know.

44:38 Sorry.

44:40 But the bailiff's Nick Kirk survives. Okay, good. However, he dies 11 years later, and his family says it's from complications from the gunshot wound, which I'm like, yeah, you get shot in the gut the rest of your fucking life. So I think... Fuck him. Fuck Ronnie.

44:57 Yes, for sure.

45:00 During a search of the courthouse then, they find a bag of men's clothing in the basement under a woman's restroom sink. So someone had come in, stashed some clothing for his getaway.

45:10 A woman.

45:10 A woman. And then it's believed that the gun had been taped to a water fountain on the first floor and then passed to Ronnie as he was escorted into the courthouse in the underground parking garage. So they find... They find his girlfriend, Darcy, unarmed and arrested about a mile away. And her sister, Karma.

45:37 Karma?

45:39 That's what it says. She's sentenced to eight years in prison for delivering the clothes and message in preparation for the escape attempt. But they don't know who actually gave him the gun. So she gets prison. Okay. Karma. She gets karma.

45:55 This girlfriend's sister goes to prison.

45:58 Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's bullshit. Right. So let's see here. I think I have a photo of this. That's him with a beard. Oh.

46:09 It's like my dad. Oh.

46:10 Marty.

46:11 He kind of looks like our therapist a little bit. He does.

46:14 Oh my God. Oh my God. He totally looks like our therapist.

46:18 It's intention versus impact.

46:20 I hear him saying, what I'm hearing your experience is.

46:23 Can you turn to Karen and say that?

46:25 No, I hate it.

46:26 It's awkward. That's the best worst part of our therapy sessions. If we're like saying something meaningful and then he'll be like, will you turn to Georgia and say that? And then I'm like, Looking at her is the most repulsive thing in that moment. I'm just like... No, I mean like... Well.

46:46 For myself.

46:47 We have something to talk about next week.

46:49 For sure.

46:53 I should have said vulnerable.

46:54 Upsetting to me.

46:56 You should have, but you didn't.

46:58 Oh, no!

47:00 Strike 19.

47:01 Well... Vince, write that down. Steven....

47:07 Steven, mark that moment.

47:08 Steven, mark that moment. That's going to be a minisode of just you saying that.

47:12 God, that was the worst word I could have used. I'm so sorry.

47:19 I mean, I look pretty fucking ugly when I cry. No!

47:22 Internal feelings. Impact.

47:25 Got it. Intent. Let's take one more look at him.

47:28 Oh, yeah. Here we go.

47:31 Calm down a little.

47:32 Run, help us.

47:33 The grain of the temples. Well, the thing is, I said this thing. What did you hear, Georgia, when you heard that? And then I'm like, well, I felt like I was about to faint because I have no air. Feel how warm I am right now. Are you? I really am.

47:49 Ooh, are you about to?

47:50 I'm about to fucking faint.

47:51 Let's do this thing.

47:53 Ooh, sweaty. Okay.

47:54 Boop. This is a viral moment waiting to happen.

47:57 Maybe I'm just embarrassed because of the word metro. What did I call it? Metropolitan airport. I don't remember.

48:06 I don't either. No one else does either.

48:10 Nope. Thanks. I'm glad they didn't happen. Okay. And then, okay. So when that, okay. So Ottersham, it was the guy in the bar was a mountain climber and a veteran of this 19 special forces group of the Utah national guard. And, and so is she.

48:31 Thank you for your service.

48:33 And the other guy, our therapist for Dell was a Vietnam veteran, a former engineer and a member of the summum church. Um, don't know what that is. And so then, okay. So they catch him back to he, even though he had a fucking shot in his chest, right? June 1985, he pleads guilty to the murder of Ostrom. The jurors deliberate less than three hours and find him guilty of capital murder. And life without parole isn't possible back then.

49:03 They didn't come around until 1992 in Utah.

49:07 Oh.

49:07 So he's sentenced to death, making him then Utah's youngest inmate on death row. And later, the jurors say that if they had known about his troubled past and his childhood they maybe just if they could have given him life sentence they would have but you know they couldn't as I just said okay which is like.

49:27 Pay attention stop making me repeat myself.

49:31 Article okay here's a here's an insane thing and this is this is fucked up he's given the choice how he wants to be executed oh you know it's like Why do we get that choice?

49:41 Why is that?

49:42 Just pick your dinner and be quiet.

49:44 Yeah, you got to choose your dinner. But nope, he picks his.

49:48 So he says, quote, I'd prefer to die of old age, your honor. But if that ain't possible, I'll take the firing squad.

49:56 Holy fuck.

49:58 He is not fucking around. Fuck. And he's been shot once already, so he fucking knows what it feels like.

50:06 Right?

50:07 Like, that's the craziest part. That doesn't feel good, probably.

50:09 No.

50:10 I've never.

50:10 He wouldn't want to go back to that. And yet.

50:12 And yet?

50:13 He was just like, wow, that's nuts.

50:15 So, since 1976, only two other people have been executed by firing squad of the United States, both in Utah. What? I wouldn't share for that. I'm kidding.

50:28 I would.

50:30 Gary Gilmore and John Albert Taylor... But this guy Taylor chose the firing squad to embarrass the state. But Ronnie said that he just didn't want to attract attention. He just preferred that way to die.

50:43 Wow.

50:43 So he got in a lot of trouble in prison. What? On October 20th, 1987. Okay. He's in the prison, the visiting area. There's a glass partition between him and the woman he's talking to. He fucking breaks the glass partition.

50:59 What?

50:59 What? then they somehow gets over the partition, I hope, and he and the woman have sex, like, through the broken partition while the fucking other inmates cheered and barricaded the doors. Yeah. And, hold on, the fucking woman is his half-brother's wife.

51:23 What?

51:25 What the fuck?

51:26 Shit, Utah.

51:27 What is Christmas like? What is the Thanksgiving conversation that year?

51:32 My first question is, let's talk about that glass.

51:35 Yes. I hope, that's what I'm saying, I hope they jumped over it somehow and didn't have sex on it. That's the least of my, the worries.

51:42 There used to be just a very thin pane of Tiffany stained glass between the prisoners and their guests.

51:50 That's insanity.

51:51 Well, I've done the glass starts boning his fucking sister-in-law and the rest of the prisoners like, hell yeah. And fucking crazy, right?

52:00 We're like, that must've been like the hottest like prisoner phone call through that glass.

52:05 Yeah.

52:06 And they're like, how was Thanksgiving? How was your fucking Thanksgiving? Is the question I want to ask you.

52:11 Yams? Were there yams?

52:13 Oh, yams!

52:17 I mean, fuck, right? Literally. Then on September... Oh, yeah. Then on September 25th, 1994, so he's still alive, he gets drunk from alcohol that he had made in his prison... Toilet? No, thank God.

52:33 Damn it.

52:34 Sink. Sink. Which is like, yeah, right. That's what you told people. And he stabs another inmate, Richard Fats Thomas, with a shiv that he had made from a pair of sunglasses. Also, prisoners have sunglasses?

52:47 You still got to be cool.

52:49 I guess. You got to protect those peepers.

52:51 That's right.

52:53 The UV rays up here are insane.

52:55 They will get you. The air is thin. um this dude suffers nine puncture wounds to the face mouth arm and chest that are life-threatening but he makes a full recovery so so he's having a good time in prison it seems.

53:10 Like he's he's really criminaling it up.

53:12 Yeah okay cut to june 18th night 2010 2010 but you like the year that that.

53:19 Murder happened that fucking year.

53:22 That's your favorite year for murder so sneaky Oh, here's him like... Oh, that's the... Okay, well, Stephen put these in the wrong fucking order.

53:30 Stephen?

53:31 Oh, now I'm scared that... It's.

53:33 Stephen's fault you were pronounced Metropolitan that way.

53:37 Metropolitan... What did I say? I don't remember. Well, Metropolitan... Metropolis. Thank you for... Metropolis.

53:44 It's so good.

53:45 I don't want to... I have a picture of him like back in 2010, but I'm scared that Stephen left one of those photos out And I don't want to go to your picture. Everyone close your eyes real quick. I think you just put it in the wrong order. Should I do it? Who cares?

54:05 I don't want to out here.

54:07 Which part?

54:07 I don't even know what mine are. Just go ahead.

54:10 Okay, there he is.

54:12 Oh, no.

54:12 You've ruined my thing.

54:14 No, no. That's Ronnie.

54:16 Bring Ren back up. I have some complaints.

54:18 That's Ronnie. Our therapist is named Ren, you guys. Okay. So, boop. I'm sorry.

54:26 Can you go back really quick?

54:27 Yeah.

54:29 He looks like Matt Walsh, the guy on Veep.

54:32 Oh, he does look like Matt Walsh. Look at him.

54:34 Think about it.

54:35 Get HBO if you have to.

54:37 Oh, God. Yeah.

54:38 It's Matt Walsh. Veep. All right.

54:41 So, finally, in 2010, Ronnie is now 49 years old. It's been a quarter of a century that he's been on death row, which is a long fucking time.

54:52 Well, it's 25 years.

54:57 Finally, but he... I'm going to ignore that.

55:00 Ren!

55:01 Ren!

55:01 I'm going to ignore you.

55:04 Finally, he's fucking... On June 18, 2010, he's eliminated... Okay, wait. Let me tell you something. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I read that wrong. By 2004, Utah had eliminated the firing squad. There it is. There it is.

55:26 There is someone in this audience who is not a fan of the show. Oh, my God. Doesn't know what's happening and is like, this is fucking wrong.

55:33 Yeah.

55:34 What's happening is wrong.

55:36 I'm dizzy right now, so I'm going to blame everything on that. this podcast great um they so utah was like maybe we shouldn't let's eliminate the firing squad by 2004 as a method of execution but convicts who were sentenced before that date are still allowed to have that option if they want to pick it yeah okay so like you can like it doesn't it doesn't retroactively they're not like.

55:57 They're grandfathered into being shot yes yeah I get it.

56:01 Exactly.

56:02 What?

56:03 You know you're in charge and you can change that, right? No.

56:07 This isn't some weird movie where you have to get shot this way.

56:11 So just after midnight, five anonymous executioners, they're behind a curtain and a ported brick wall. Don't know what that is. Ported?

56:22 Ported. Ported.

56:24 One rifle had a blank round, so no one would be like, it was me. You know what I mean? They didn't know. He is pronounced dead at 12.17 a.m. And after he was executed, the daughter of one of the victims said, I hope my sister, who just passed away, and my father, and all of the other victims are waiting for his sorry ass. I hope they get to go down after him.

56:47 Whoa.

56:48 Whoa. Are you allowed to do that? Can you go back and forth?

56:52 I feel like we're about to write the new Marvel movie. Oh, yeah.

56:59 I'll pull you out of hell.

57:01 Something like that.

57:02 We're going to go down after him.

57:03 They're going to go down. They're going to beat him up in hell.

57:06 They're like, we're hanging out in heaven. It's great up here. Let's do a fucking quick tour.

57:10 This is my laminate. I get to go back up. We're just going to kick some assholes ass really quick.

57:17 Yeah. And then we get it. No, no, no. I don't stay.

57:19 I'm not staying here. I was good.

57:22 I hope they get a go down after him.

57:24 Fuck.

57:25 Yeah. And that's the story of fucking Ronnie Lee Gardner.

57:28 Wow.

57:29 Thanks.

57:35 I told you he was a dick. So it was a real like roller coaster though with that guy. I mean, I don't know.

57:44 You were here, you were there, you were here, then you were back there.

57:46 It's always very complex with these stories.

57:48 They are. You know, it's an emotional roller coaster.

57:51 It really is.

57:52 Of metropolitan size.

57:56 Almost the size of a metropole.

57:59 I just start using that word incorrectly because I just want to prove that I know how to say it.

58:04 You're like looking at a charcuterie board. You're like, is this metropolitan? Cheese?

58:11 Pull it out anywhere.

58:17 We're back.

58:18 Do you have any updates?

58:19 I do. Ronnie Lee Gardner's brother, Randy Gardner, has been openly against the death penalty, especially by Firing Squad. He's partnered with Worthrise's Death Penalty Action faith leaders and community advocates to combat Idaho's recent pivot to making Firing Squad executions the state's primary method. For carrying out death sentences.

58:41 That's not good.

58:42 It's not good. That's aggro.

58:44 Yeah.

58:45 Idaho is one of several states that has recently brought back firing squad executions amid drug shortages and legal challenges to lethal injections. That's not the solution, friends. That's not the answer.

58:57 What that is is the fast track to fascist death squads.

59:02 Amen.

59:02 Hello, America.

59:03 Hi. You voted for this. Anyway, well, half of you. Less than half of you did.

59:07 Not these guys.

59:08 Not us.

59:10 Not these. Not a murderino, for God's sake.

59:12 Murderinos are part of the solution. Everyone knows that. All right. Well, let's get into Karen's story now, shall we? This is the Salt Lake City library hostage incident.

59:29 My story tonight is one of my classic, it was an episode of I Survived. As most of us do, I have all of mine on my DVR and I was laying on my couch for 19 hours the other day and.

59:51 Not taking care of things.

59:52 And this episode rolled up and they were like, Salt Lake City, Utah. And then I was just like, my homework. Yeah.

1:00:02 And then you're like, I have to sit here. Yes. That's the best.

1:00:05 This is working.

1:00:06 This just turned into borderline clinical depression. Now I'm at work. That's how easy it is.

1:00:12 It's the best.

1:00:13 In the podcast world.

1:00:14 When there's a podcast about the murder you're going to do that week and you're like, I got to clean my.

1:00:18 Bathroom instead of just sitting in front of my computer. Yes.

1:00:22 I have a weird way of enjoying myself. I mean... Cleaning my toilet. Okay. So.

1:00:29 It is satisfying though.

1:00:30 Do you ever use one of those bleach, like things you stick in the back of the toilet and then the water is just bleachy all the time?

1:00:36 No.

1:00:37 Get into it. They're the best.

1:00:38 You know, every once in a while you just have like a ring of mold where you're like, what's coming out of me? I'm disgusting. No. Well, I mean, not like a, not crazy. It's just, you see it forming where you're like, is something off?

1:00:53 Something's going on.

1:00:54 Something's happening.

1:00:55 Okay.

1:00:55 Just get one of those fucking Clorox bleach pills or whatever they're called.

1:00:59 Do you take, you swallow it?

1:01:00 Yep.

1:01:00 And then you're like, got it. Okay, I'll do it. Karen told me to take a bleach pill and then I wouldn't have mold coming out of me anymore.

1:01:08 It looks kind of like a big sweet tart.

1:01:10 If you put it on an avocado toast, it's really delicious with a fried egg on top.

1:01:16 Just get some, like maybe a coconut oil on top. So it just absorbs the intense chemicals. Where were we?

1:01:27 No idea. We are in the metropolis.

1:01:29 Definitely hallucinating at this point. Okay.

1:01:34 So, but then, so I watch it.

1:01:35 It's great. Then good old Steve Ray Morris sends me a 2020 episode about the same story, which of course is more in depth and actually has reenactors, which is the greatest. And so now I'm going to retell you a 2020 episode. Like I used to retell you, I survived episodes.

1:01:58 This is plagiarism. It's like a mashup. That's right.

1:02:02 That's right. It's like, um, it's like a layer cake where my knowledge began on an episode of I survived folded in the 2020. And now this is just like, we're all at the campfire together. And I'm like, remember TV?

1:02:15 Okay.

1:02:15 Listen to this.

1:02:16 You eat Is the cake at the campfire?

1:02:19 Yep.

1:02:19 Okay, good.

1:02:19 Yeah. We get to have cake and bleach pills. It's going to be the best camp out ever. It is the Salt Lake City library hostage crisis. Do you remember?

1:02:32 You guys had a library hostage crisis?

1:02:35 Dude, did they fucking ever.

1:02:37 First of all, let's just take a look at the Salt Lake City public library circa whenever Stephen found this picture. Let's see. This is the old branch, I believe.

1:02:50 Is that correct?

1:02:52 It's the old branch.

1:02:53 It looks old.

1:02:54 That's just the colors.

1:02:58 That's so 70s. Look at that poor building on stilts. The building's like, what do you expect from me? You couldn't just put me on the ground?

1:03:07 The architect's like, we're pinning all of our hopes on you.

1:03:10 Oh, man.

1:03:12 This says future learning. Okay. The Salt Lake City Public Library is a five-story building. So on Saturday, March 5th, 1994, it wasn't black and white. It was the early 90s.

1:03:27 So it was like a sepia tone. Yeah. Kind of.

1:03:31 With like neon spray paint, fake graffiti on the bottom.

1:03:37 And tilted to the side.

1:03:38 Yep.

1:03:40 Very beach house. So there's hundreds of people at the library on Saturday.

1:03:46 Okay. and um people there for obviously all different kind of reasons like what well you know reading being quiet sleeping free coffee free do they serve coffee some of.

1:03:59 Them do i don't know i bet they don't do that probably not here because you don't want to spill coffee oh sure free water i don't know oh they're not allowed to have water no um we're teasing you.

1:04:13 Um Salt Lake City's like, that's not us, man.

1:04:17 That's not us.

1:04:20 So there's a couple there, Michael and Judith Greer, and they came down to the library because there was a Tibetan mandala ceremony being done that day. And that's, you know, that's your favorite.

1:04:33 Yeah. It's my favorite kind of ceremony.

1:04:35 Right?

1:04:36 Of all library ceremonies.

1:04:38 Oh.

1:04:41 You guys need to try one one day.

1:04:42 Top three.

1:04:43 Top three.

1:04:44 So it's the Tibetan monks who are putting colored sand, they're like scraping and blowing colored sand into this almost as beautiful as this rug design at the library.

1:04:58 How fucking badass is that?

1:05:00 I love it.

1:05:01 Those are the kind of events that they have.

1:05:03 Because it's culturally open to everyone.

1:05:05 They're like, check out what happens.

1:05:09 Check, is that the tag? Check out what happened. Oh my God. Who's a librarian here? Use that tagline. Take this, take it to your meeting on Monday.

1:05:18 You have a meeting on Monday?

1:05:19 Take it. It's yours.

1:05:22 To the librarians union meeting? Take that down there.

1:05:25 You're going to get a raise.

1:05:26 I bet they've never used the pun, check it out at the library before. I bet it's never happened with a big check mark. So the Greers are there watching this beautiful sand ceremony. And also there's, of course, Gwen Page, who's been a librarian.

1:05:43 Gwen, are you here?

1:05:44 Gwen was in the I Survived and in the 2020. So you know she is a key fucking player in this story.

1:05:52 She is just bouncing around.

1:05:54 She is a lifelong dedicated librarian in the most hushed toned way you can be. You can fucking see her readers on a chain. She's like, I'll tell you where the book is this time, but you have to find it for yourself the next time.

1:06:12 You know Gwen?

1:06:13 Yeah. Okay.

1:06:16 So she's, you know, reforming the Dewey.

1:06:20 Decimal System or whatever.

1:06:23 Librarians like to get up to.

1:06:26 And one of her coworkers says, you gotta go see the fucking Mandela Ceremony.

1:06:31 Before it ends.

1:06:31 It's amazing. She's like, you're so right. So she hauls ass on up.

1:06:36 I don't know what we're doing.

1:06:39 Is this word for word? The 2020 episode?

1:06:42 This is how they say it on the 2020.

1:06:47 Oh, shit.

1:06:48 Look at this.

1:06:49 There she is. Gwen! Gwen! Gwen, Gwen, Gwen. That's Gwen. And nice mauves, a nice mauve.

1:06:58 She's doing jewel tones because she knows that that can act like makeup sometimes for you. That does, a maroon jacket does the work for you.

1:07:09 But you got to have a pop of color.

1:07:11 But you've got to get a good, some nice hot blue, electric blue in there.

1:07:15 Love her.

1:07:16 You still love to live.

1:07:19 Librarian to the hilt. Librarian.

1:07:21 Stephen, Stephen, Paused it right when she was going. She does that throughout the interview. Just shushing cameramen, shushing interviewers. I'd fucking love that so much. The sound guy's like, I can't, I can't with this librarian. I'm getting a lot of shushing. Okay.

1:07:48 Okay.

1:07:49 So as Gwen heads up to watch this amazing, cool thing that I would love to see in real life and made me cry when I saw it in the thing, she notices, of course, because observe and report, librarian style, she notices there's this scraggly guy standing by the reference desk. He's wearing a backpack. He looks real, like, edgy, and she clocks it, but then she's like, I gotta go see him at Dallas ceremony.

1:08:16 So she just shushed him really hard and Kept on moving.

1:08:20 Okay. She put her shush scent on him to like mark him for later.

1:08:24 Yes. It was just a little yellow chalk on his pant leg. Come back and shush him later. About a half an hour. We're going to reveal all the library secrets. I know.

1:08:38 They're so mad right now. So many.

1:08:41 So... So she passes this way. This is the way they set it up on 2020. I bet you they didn't all pass like it was a very well-choreographed play. But she passes him, and then this scraggly guy turns to the man standing next to him and pushes a manila envelope onto his chest and goes, I need you to mail this for me. Give this to the papers.

1:09:13 Have a nice life. Mine's going to be short. And then he turns around and pulls out a gun. And then he pulls out a curling iron.

1:09:22 What?

1:09:24 And then he jumps on a table and he yells, uh, Everybody listen up. This is a bomb. He holds the curling iron up. This is a bomb. Nobody move. If I let go of this switch.

1:09:36 This whole place blows up.

1:09:38 So it was what they call a dead man switch. He's literally holding open a curling iron. So if he lets it go, that's when the bomb goes off. So that if anything happens to him, everybody dies. That's like his insurance.

1:09:52 Do you think everyone laughed at first? Because they're like, look, that guy's joking.

1:09:56 I can see the cord of that curling iron, sir. Curling irons aren't bombs.

1:10:02 Okay.

1:10:04 I would know. Fuck.

1:10:08 Yeah. Okay.

1:10:10 So, and then he's kind of like, obviously, people, you know, the guns like this, the curling irons up like this, everybody... probably 10 feet and back, are just like, goodbye. And they peace out of there as quickly and in as organized fashion as possible.

1:10:28 I'm sure.

1:10:29 Down four escalators.

1:10:31 Oh, man.

1:10:32 Five-story library.

1:10:33 That's the worst escape route is an escalator.

1:10:35 Yeah, because it's just so slow. You have to stand there. Escaping, escaping, escaping. Almost there.

1:10:42 Oh.

1:10:43 We have almost escaped. Music, really nice music playing behind you.

1:10:48 Watch your shoelaces. And then someone's like, my.

1:10:49 Shoelaces are tied. That's the only way anybody gets caught is if their shoelace gets stuck in it.

1:10:55 Yeah.

1:10:56 Um, Oh, I just do want to say that, uh, so the bad guy, this is the reenactor from 2020. There was, Stephen could find no pictures of the actual bomber Clifford Draper. Uh, But this guy, this reenactor actually does a very good job. He has very large eyes, so he's scary. They have a lot of like brown eyeliner around his eyes. And he's doing a very realistic, crazy person who's, you know, somebody that's like on the edge, that's in public, but like people aren't noticing him, but you're like, but there is something up with that guy.

1:11:34 And then boom, he's up on the table.

1:11:36 Okay.

1:11:36 Okay.

1:11:37 And, you know, then there has to be like whispering to yourself and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, oh, this is going to be cheesy as fuck. Well, it wasn't. This guy did a fucking great job.

1:11:46 His name.

1:11:47 Did you IMDb him?

1:11:48 Yes, I did.

1:11:48 His name is Michael B.

1:11:51 Woods.

1:11:52 And, um. You've seen him, yes.

1:11:55 Ow, my teeth. He's cute.

1:11:57 You've seen him on Empire.

1:12:00 He's had a two-episode character arc on Chicago PD.

1:12:05 He's one of your favorite actors.

1:12:09 He's not just a crazy guy in the library reference desk with a curling iron.

1:12:15 And he really fucking held.

1:12:16 This 2020 together. It was all him.

1:12:19 Emmy. So much pressure. Can they do an Emmy from before? What do they call it when they're like?

1:12:24 A retroactive Emmy?

1:12:26 Yes.

1:12:27 Metro-pactic?

1:12:28 A metroactive Emmy.

1:12:30 A metro-pactic.

1:12:31 A metro.

1:12:33 Yeah, they do those. Cool.

1:12:34 Especially for reenactors.

1:12:37 Okay. So anyway, keep your eye peeled for Michael B. Woods in the future. I'm just saying I'm calling it now. He's just got range, people, range.

1:12:46 An eyeliner looks great on him.

1:12:49 I like when you can do the whole eye. You can surround the whole eye and it still doesn't look small.

1:12:54 Oh.

1:12:55 I mean, that means you have great big eyes.

1:12:58 I keep hitting my face with the microphone.

1:13:05 You're a drug.

1:13:09 Okay. So... I told you about the dead man switch and I'm not going to say it again. Meanwhile, uh, over in the sheriff's administration building was sheriff's office administration building, which was nearby. Um, there is a man named, uh, Lieutenant Lloyd Prescott. Who's gone in, in the 2020, he goes, I went in to use the computer on the weekend.

1:13:38 To use the computer.

1:13:40 Where did he look up? It was just like a ton of solitaire. So he's in using the computer in basically kind of an empty building. And this guy runs in from the library and he's just like, hey, can somebody help me? And so Lloyd Prescott gets up and is like, did you guys call the cops? And they're like, yes.

1:14:03 But there's a guy with a live bomb in the library and he's taking hostages. And so Lloyd Prescott grabs his gun. He's wearing- You put it on the seat next to him? He's in a car inside the office. Let me just grab this.

1:14:19 Or like at the computer next to him. He had like rested it. Yeah.

1:14:23 He just had it right against the mouse. He grabs his gun. In the 2020, he knocks his coffee cup over onto his badge. That didn't fucking happen. They're just trying to show you he's a sheriff. And he runs into the library where hundreds of people are running out.

1:14:45 Lloyd Prescott runs in. That's how you do it.

1:14:49 He's a cop. That's right.

1:14:50 That's how you know he's a cop. They run at the danger.

1:14:54 And they have guns.

1:14:57 So as he's running in, And I also, this seems a bit fateful, so it could have been for the show, but basically he runs into the guy that Clifford Draper had given that manila envelope to to say, go mail this for me. And the guy stops him and says, don't go in there. There's a guy with a bomb and a gun. And he says, I know I'm a police officer. Is anybody hurt? And the guy says, I don't know, but he did give me this envelope to mail and and so Lloyd goes I will take this from you thank you you might want to go ahead and use the elevator real I mean escalator real quick and get out of here damn that could have been so funny um and he so um meanwhile back upstairs they have they're having this conversation and uh The bomber

1:15:49 is telling people that he wants all the people who have basically been frozen in this area in front of him. He starts looking at people and going, go into that conference room and picking people out specifically. So Michael Greer, the guy that is from the very beginning, it was his idea first to go watch the Mandela ceremony with his wife, Judith. He looks at Michael Greer and says, you go in, but not Judith. So he has to go into this conference room.

1:16:15 And leave his wife behind?

1:16:16 Yes. Oh. Yes. And so he goes in and several other people, obviously. And then he tells Gwen, go get me 16 people. I want 16 people in that conference room. Yes. And Gwen's like, sounds great. But in her mind, you know, the wheels are turning. So she goes into this conference room and she's like, and it's there's a meeting of the Toastmasters in the conference room.

1:16:45 The people who they do speeches.

1:16:47 And they practice speeches.

1:16:48 Oh, you weren't kidding. No, I don't. What?

1:16:49 Yeah, it's a real thing. Oh.

1:16:51 It's like a club you can join.

1:16:52 Oh, like a toast.

1:16:53 Yep.

1:16:54 A toast master.

1:16:55 Did you think bread toast?

1:16:58 We've been talking about avocado toast 10 minutes ago. I thought you were going, I thought that that's what you meant.

1:17:03 Toast masters. We're so fucking good at making toast.

1:17:07 That's our new Food Network show. Yes.

1:17:09 Yes.

1:17:11 Just tons of toast.

1:17:12 Toast.

1:17:13 Evenly colored. Perfectly buttered. Crust to crust. Jam or fucking almond butter? You don't know and it's not up to you. It's none of your business. We're the Toastmasters, motherfuckers. So there's a room filled with toast. And Gwen goes in, bold as brass.

1:17:35 Yeah.

1:17:37 And Gwen's like, you guys... Let me quickly interrupt your dumb fucking meeting. There's a guy with a bomb out there. And that's not a word for word. And in this room, luckily, there was a different door than the entrance door. There was like a weird back door. So, of course, they're like, let's toastmaster the fuck out of here. And... They open that door. People start going out, out. So all these people are escaping. And then Clifford Draper, the bomber, runs in.

1:18:07 He's like, stop!

1:18:08 Shut that door!

1:18:09 So he shuts the door.

1:18:12 They end up... A total of, I believe, nine... Ten people altogether end up in the room. He doesn't get his 16. Which I do agree is a better number. But it's just how it worked out.

1:18:28 So.

1:18:30 Um, page 11. Uh, okay.

1:18:39 So, uh, he.

1:18:42 Makes them all sit at the conference room table, but he makes, um, them turn their chairs out so that they can't look at each other. And he keeps screaming, don't look at me, over and over. And he's just doing this with a gun, just constantly, bomb gun. So everyone is just obviously insanely freaked out. So our guy, Lloyd Prescott, walks into the conference room. So there he had called, I think he had called like two other women in like, get in here. You have to get in here right now. And Lloyd Prescott cuts them off, walks into the room and, um, holding up the manila envelope and goes, what am I supposed to do with this?

1:19:26 And then he turned and then he shuts the door behind him so that the people who are supposed to go into the room don't go in. He cuts them off. And, uh, and then of course, The bomber's just like, what, who are you?

1:19:38 And he's freaking out or whatever.

1:19:39 He's like, I said that was supposed to be mailed. And he was like, could you stop pointing that gun at me? I just, I don't even know. And he's just playing it real low key. So he's not coming in in any way cop style. He's like, someone just handed me this envelope. What am I supposed to do?

1:19:52 He pretended like he didn't.

1:19:54 Know why he was in there.

1:19:55 Yes, insane.

1:19:58 So then the bomber tells Gwen, the librarian, to go get him a phone. And if she's not back in 15 seconds, he'll kill somebody.

1:20:06 15 seconds for a phone in 1994? Yes.

1:20:08 Yes.

1:20:10 That's not enough time.

1:20:11 That's very high stress.

1:20:13 Yeah, because there's no cell phones, kids.

1:20:15 No, you're going to need a phone. Gwen immediately had to think of where's the one phone that has the longest silver cord.

1:20:22 Yeah. Yeah.

1:20:23 That I can just run across this fucking library with.

1:20:26 Exactly.

1:20:27 She does it, of course.

1:20:28 It's Gwen.

1:20:29 It's Gwen. She nails it.

1:20:30 You're right. I don't know why I doubted her.

1:20:32 Yeah, you can't.

1:20:33 Shit, sorry, Gwen.

1:20:33 Do we need to look at her again?

1:20:34 No, no.

1:20:35 Why would you?

1:20:35 Oh, you want to? Gwen! So relaxing.

1:20:46 Okay.

1:20:47 Goodbye. Oops. Uh-oh.

1:20:52 It's there forever.

1:20:53 Now, okay.

1:20:55 This is how stressful it is.

1:20:56 Okay. All right. Okay.

1:21:08 End of that page. The pacing of this is amazing. Oh, he tells, Lloyd tells the bomber he's an accountant and he's just kind of like playing it small. He's like, I spill coffee sometimes. I'm just, I'm a numbers guy anyway. I don't know how to mail things. Meanwhile, of course, he's wearing like a jacket, like a windbreaker, and he's got his gun hidden underneath it. So then Draper tells everybody that he's going to barricade the room. He has a lady shut the curtains. He does this weird thing where he keeps having people do things for him. He's not doing it. Probably because he's holding a fucking curling iron.

1:21:48 So he asks Gwen what time they entered the room. Immediately Gwen's like, 10 to 10. And then he sets a timer for 72 hours. So he has this amount of time that they're going to do this, which is a long fucking time. And... In the reenactment, that's when he says, my name's Clifford Draper. Let's get some attention.

1:22:11 I doubt that happened. In reality, Clifford Draper was a veteran and he was a paranoid schizophrenic who had gone off his meds long ago. He was originally from Arkansas, but now he lived in a boarding house that was like down the street from this library. So he gets Gwen to call the police and explain to the police what's going on. Um, so she says, I'm being held hostage in the Salt Lake city library with nine other people. Um, and the police say, we want, uh, to connect you.

1:22:45 We want him to talk to the hostage negotiator. And Draper goes, fucking batch it.

1:22:50 No, no, no.

1:22:50 Hang up the phone.

1:22:51 Screaming, screaming.

1:22:52 Then he makes Gwen give the phone to Michael Greer. And he says, now you're my phone man now. So he makes Michael Greer. Call the local classic rock radio station Z93.

1:23:04 Shut up.

1:23:05 Yes. For real. Because he's going to take it to the people.

1:23:08 He's not fucking around with the police anymore.

1:23:11 Utah?

1:23:11 Yeah.

1:23:13 Z93.

1:23:13 It's the station everyone at work can agree on. Right?

1:23:20 Because everyone loves Journey.

1:23:22 So....

1:23:24 Michael Greer has to call the radio station. It's the weekend DJ. So it's somebody who's a part-timer. She's just in the reenactment. She's got headphones on. She's like kicking back. It's the most relaxed DJ you've ever seen. And she picks up the call and live on the air, Michael Greer has to say, I'm being held hostage at the Salt Lake City Library and our hostage taker wants his demands read on the air. and the weekend DJ goes, I don't have time for this, and hangs up the phone.

1:23:58 I mean, who wouldn't? You're like, fuck you, teenagers.

1:24:01 You goddamn teenagers, making my DJ life a living hell. No, we won't play Devo. This is Z93. Classic rock. Led Zeppelin and Led Zeppelin.

1:24:17 That's right. Classic rock block.

1:24:20 Meanwhile, rock blocks.

1:24:22 Rock block.

1:24:23 It's a two for Tuesday.

1:24:24 That's right. But it's a weekend.

1:24:26 This was Saturday.

1:24:29 Shit.

1:24:29 What's the Saturday one? Several songs Saturday.

1:24:34 There you go. There you go. Nailed that. If you're a DJ, you can take that.

1:24:38 You can have that, yes. For a nominal fee. Meanwhile, across town, Trisha Griffith, who is the program director at Z93. Trisha.

1:24:51 Trisha. Trisha.

1:24:52 A young lady in the 90s, directing some radio programs. Do it.

1:24:58 She's at breakfast with her friend.

1:25:00 We call it brunch. Was she having toast? What kind of toast was she having?

1:25:03 This was a toast situation. She herself had already taken the toast master class.

1:25:07 So she was like whipping up four different kinds.

1:25:10 She was like, I'm going to have one sliced sourdough and one sliced rye. It's how we do it. I am so high off this thin air.

1:25:18 I can't believe it. It's fucked up. Are you.

1:25:21 The greatest.

1:25:24 I totally want to move here.

1:25:25 All right.

1:25:26 So anyhow, we'll talk about it after. Okay.

1:25:32 So she gets the call.

1:25:36 The weekend DJ calls her boss after she hangs up and goes, hey, so this just happened.

1:25:42 And now I have a weird feeling about it. I don't think I did the right thing.

1:25:47 I might have fucked up.

1:25:49 I think I might be on probation. I'm in serious DJ trouble right now. Trisha drops her fork loudly, runs out of the brunch.

1:26:00 Spills her coffee.

1:26:01 But takes her toast.

1:26:03 Right.

1:26:04 Boom.

1:26:05 Important things.

1:26:07 Meanwhile, we're cutting back to the conference room now. This gets super dark. The bomber passes around a legal pad and has everybody write their name down and the name of their next of kin. So he's doing a lot of shit like that where he's basically like, here's how I'm going to kill you. These are the different, like, none of.

1:26:26 Us are getting out of here. A lot of shit like that.

1:26:30 Also, there's a woman in the conference room with everybody who's a diabetic. Oh, no.

1:26:34 And she's starting to feel the effects.

1:26:37 She has to take insulin five times a day.

1:26:39 Jesus.

1:26:39 And she tells him, look... I'm a fucking diabetic. She didn't say fucking.

1:26:44 And I.

1:26:46 Have to take my medicine. And he was like, well, if you didn't bring your medicine, then that's on you. And someone else in the room is like, she could die. And he's like, well, then that's just how it is. And then he goes, or maybe I'll trade her out for a cop. I've always wanted to kill a cop. And Lloyd Prescott's like, still an accountant.

1:27:10 Yep.

1:27:11 Loving them numbers.

1:27:12 Too bad I'm an accountant.

1:27:14 April 15th. Hate you so much.

1:27:18 Tax day. Anyway, what are you guys talking about?

1:27:22 The police?

1:27:24 Meanwhile, over at the SWAT central.

1:27:27 Yeah. The Metropolitan SWAT offices.

1:27:31 Yes. The SWAT Sergeant Ken Hansen is prepping for the Hoski rustage.

1:27:36 Hoski rustage? Can we get some oxygen, please? Are you okay?

1:27:47 Mommy? Mommy? The Hosky rescue?

1:27:52 Oh, no.

1:27:54 This is just a little Hosky. This is me and Ken Johnson.

1:27:58 There she goes. There she goes now.

1:28:01 It's a secret.

1:28:02 It's a secret. Just start singing Delight to me.

1:28:07 Holy fuck.

1:28:10 Now you know how I feel all the time. Isn't it the worst? That's why I was so hot. I kept saying stupid shit.

1:28:18 It really sounded so right.

1:28:20 I know. I feel like it's always.

1:28:21 Been Hoski restage.

1:28:24 That was fun for me because it wasn't me.

1:28:29 Does it feel good when it's not you? What a goddamn relief.

1:28:34 Okay. Deep breaths.

1:28:37 Please get serious.

1:28:39 Deep breaths, real fast. Is that how you... Right?

1:28:42 Shallow, fast breaths.

1:28:44 If you just stand up real quick.

1:28:45 Yeah. And screaming?

1:28:47 Yeah. Okay. Meanwhile.

1:28:54 This made me laugh so loudly when I watched it today. So at one point, Draper looks at everybody and goes, I want all of you to strip down.

1:29:04 What?

1:29:05 Strip down naked.

1:29:06 That kind of party.

1:29:07 This one girl who has been super like in the reenactment the whole time, she's been like, what? She's always the girl they cut to when they want to show people being upset or worried.

1:29:16 Like, why?

1:29:17 She has like long hair. Very like, you know, like down, you know, the girl next to her face. And when he says that, she turns around and goes, I am not doing that.

1:29:28 That's where she puts her foot down.

1:29:30 And then he didn't make them do it.

1:29:34 What? She should have been like, and you're letting us out.

1:29:42 I cannot tell you how much I would have been that girl. And I would have been like, definitely shoot me. I am not taking my pants off in any way at the library with all these nice people around me.

1:29:57 Wow.

1:29:58 I am not doing that. You with your guns and your bombs. So awesome. So then he just makes them take their jackets off. Why? Yeah. Oh.

1:30:11 Because she is not doing that.

1:30:12 But he has a gun under his jacket.

1:30:15 That's exactly right, Georgia. I've been listening. So, you, like Gwen, have been listening.

1:30:22 Okay.

1:30:22 So, he makes Gwen, of course, go around and take everyone's jacket from them and then put them in the corner.

1:30:29 Oh, Gwen has to be the coat girl now?

1:30:30 Gwen is.

1:30:31 The coat check girl?

1:30:32 Gwen's like his gopher a little bit.

1:30:33 Like his helper.

1:30:34 He keeps looking to her.

1:30:35 And I'm sure she's sitting there, because she's probably the whole time looking at him like, is this really what you're doing now?

1:30:40 So he's like, fine, you go get the coats.

1:30:43 So as she's walking around the outside of the table, when she gets to Lloyd, Lloyd gives her the old, like just a real quick, quick ding, ding with the eyes, not my coat. And she doesn't miss a beat. I encourage everyone in your life. Please always look for small, tiny clues that people are trying to fucking give you because what is worse than being the person who Or experiencing the person where you're like, don't take my coat.

1:31:10 And they're like, why don't you want me to take your coat?

1:31:16 Can't you just hand me your coat?

1:31:20 Oh, man.

1:31:21 We've all been in those situations where it's, don't ask me why I don't want to take my shoes off in your house. My feet smell. I don't want to have to tell you that.

1:31:29 Yes. If I'm telling you something but my eyes are wide, catch on, god damn it. Okay. That was just a sidebar of advice. Screamed at you angrily. Just how I do it. I am not doing that. So she passes Lloyd. Then Lloyd says to Draper, can I leave my coat on?

1:31:55 I'm cold.

1:31:56 And Draper, of course, is like, if I take your coat off and loses his shit. And so he does it. He takes his coat off in this way where he's able to pull, real quick.

1:32:06 Pull his.

1:32:07 His shirt bottom. I was going to say shirt sleeves.

1:32:11 What else is there?

1:32:12 I barely caught myself. Untuck his shirt. The tail of his shirt.

1:32:16 Fuck.

1:32:18 Pull it out.

1:32:19 Shirt tails.

1:32:20 That's right. Pulls that out to cover the gun.

1:32:23 Cool.

1:32:24 Right in time.

1:32:25 Okay.

1:32:26 So, and meanwhile, no one in the room knows that he is a cop. Yeah. No one, everyone is like, we're here with this crazy guy. and super Gwen the librarian.

1:32:36 And that's about it. And an accountant, and that's all we've got.

1:32:39 And that really cold accountant. Why would he risk all of our lives because he's cold? I hate his guts.

1:32:46 What a dick. Okay.

1:32:51 So then he makes everybody, Draper makes everybody read his list of demands. He hands them out, and he goes like, this is why I'm doing this, and if you read this, now you'll understand. And then everyone gets it and is like, oh, great, great. A little reason here. Uh-oh. Because the letter says, among other things, that he will not negotiate. He demands to be reinstated into the National Guard. Woo! He wants a military doctor stripped down to his shorts to come and bring him Sedatives and methamphetamine.

1:33:32 Ooh, that's not a good mix.

1:33:34 Yeah, it's a version of a speedball, but at the library. He demands to be paid in gold and platinum bullion, which is badass.

1:33:47 It's actually, one of the accountants was like, financially, that's actually sad.

1:33:53 You can't go wrong with platinum bullion. It's really.

1:33:56 You can take that anywhere.

1:33:58 And then he demands to be flown to New Zealand and he wants a full presidential pardon from Bill Clinton. So it really bums everybody out as they read it. Meanwhile, over at Z93. Okay. Okay. Cutting back because Trisha Griffith has arrived and she's like, I'm going to be here now. The weekend DJ doesn't have to deal with the hard shit anymore.

1:34:23 Cut the blues, traveler. This is fucking happening.

1:34:27 It's like harmonica.

1:34:31 Hostage.

1:34:33 So she sits there and at the DJ deck, she sits there and just in case the hostage, the. The bomber calls back, which he does. Cool. He's screaming, do not hang up on me. Put me on the air or everybody dies. So she had the weekend DJ go call the cops and be like, you know, he called once before. What do we do or whatever? And the cops had told the weekend DJ, do not put.

1:35:07 Him on the air.

1:35:09 But of course, Trisha's talking to him and she's like, no, he's going to kill these people. There's no doubt in my mind. So she was like, I'm going to put him on the air because I don't want.

1:35:18 These people to die.

1:35:18 Trisha making decisions.

1:35:20 She was going full program director on his ass. But before she did that, which is great, she thought, I'm going to try one thing. So she says to Draper on the phone, the button to put you on the air is broken and the engineer won't be back till Monday. And he buys it. What?! Because we all know that there's a strip of buttons that light up.

1:35:47 And if that one is broken, the air isn't there.

1:35:50 And the engineer is gone.

1:35:52 The engineer is skiing again as he does. So he buys it. He tells her they have less than 72 hours or everyone dies. Then he makes Michael Greer call, call back and read the list of hostage names and next of kin. Um, So that when he kills everybody, she can notify the families.

1:36:20 Jesus. Oh, sorry. You guys like him?

1:36:26 Did you say you guys like him? I totally like him. I don't know. He's just nice and he listens. He likes all the same bands as me.

1:36:44 Like Blues Traveler. Makes the best toast.

1:36:50 Have you ever had Jesus's toast? It's very small and round.

1:36:55 And there is.

1:36:55 It tastes like glue.

1:36:59 That's a reference.

1:37:00 I get it.

1:37:01 I'm making a Catholic reference.

1:37:05 No, it has the face of Jesus burnt toasted into it. He has his own... Never mind.

1:37:12 He burns his own face into his own toast. God bless him, literally.

1:37:17 All right.

1:37:22 So Clifford is telling Trisha this super fucked up, very upsetting news, and Trisha gets this idea, and she says, Clifford, can I ask you a question? And he says, yes, but he's screaming it or something or waving a gun at the phone. And she says, what can I play for you?

1:37:42 Right?

1:37:43 So smart. It's so smart because music heals the world.

1:37:47 All right.

1:37:49 Pull out an acoustic guitar. Play seven Nirvana songs. He fucking asked for more deep cuts for them to stop playing the same songs all the time.

1:38:01 And he asked for less commercials.

1:38:04 What?

1:38:04 Yeah.

1:38:05 That's the most reasonable answer I've ever heard.

1:38:08 It's what we all want from Z93.

1:38:12 Even off your meds, you're like, here's what's going wrong with your fucking radio station.

1:38:19 I can see this and I'm holding a curling iron in the library.

1:38:22 Okay.

1:38:25 Meanwhile, on the other side of the conference table. Sue Ellison, the diabetic, is now going into severe... She's entering into diabetic shock. Everyone in the room is saying, please let her go. He says, no way.

1:38:42 And....

1:38:46 Oh, so he's... Draper's getting more and more agitated. This is over hours and hours and hours have passed. And at one point, he keeps switching hands because he's holding the curling iron open.

1:38:57 It's like he has to grip it.

1:38:58 He's been gripping it for hours.

1:39:00 He's like so bummed that he made that his... Yeah. It's like, couldn't he have just said that, you know, plug it in or something?

1:39:07 How about a straightener?

1:39:08 Yeah.

1:39:09 They just sit there.

1:39:09 Yeah.

1:39:14 So he... asks Michael Greer, he's like, can you get the duct tape out of my backpack? I need to fix the bomb.

1:39:20 So everyone's just like, okay.

1:39:23 So they're putting pieces of duct tape over the bomb. And as, oh, and then he, so then he, the next plan is he goes, somebody's got to die. They need to, the police aren't responding the way I want them to. We have to figure out who has to die. So he tells Gwen to go get this rope. He says, I'm going to cut this rope into all these different lengths.

1:39:47 Whoever gets the shortest piece dies.

1:39:49 No.

1:39:50 Yes. So Gwen talks about it. She's like, she took forever to walk over and get the rope.

1:39:56 Yeah.

1:39:57 She was the slowest walker of all time. And then as she, she, oh, she goes to Clifford and says, I need, how am I going to cut this? I don't, I can't cut this. There's no scissors in here. So he puts the gun down to get the knife out of his backpack.

1:40:18 Yeah.

1:40:19 And the second he does that, that's when Lloyd knows this is his fucking time to shine. He pulls that fucking gun. And so, sorry, but really quick, they talk about this, which I love. He had taken some kind of a bomb clasp So he knew if the bomb did go off in the room, if everybody was under the table, they could probably, because it's the size of the bomb, and he's talking about the type that it probably was, that bombs like that, they go off up.

1:40:46 So if everyone was under the plane of the table, there was a less chance that they would all be injured. So he fucking stands up when he sees that his hands are between weapons, fucking stands up and screams, sheriff's office. Everybody get down. All the people in the chairs fucking hit the deck. And he shoots Clifford Draper five times.

1:41:08 Oh, God. Sorry. That was so exciting. I was so excited.

1:41:20 You went into your own mic.

1:41:22 No, I didn't.

1:41:23 Table.

1:41:24 Oh, I thought it was your tube. No, no, no.

1:41:27 God, that was the best visual.

1:41:28 Like, oh.

1:41:32 Clunk. Yes.

1:41:34 Did that scare everyone?

1:41:37 I think it was really good sound effects.

1:41:38 Oh, my God.

1:41:39 Yes.

1:41:39 Yes. Right as... So the SWAT team was right outside the conference room door.

1:41:45 They were like all in it.

1:41:47 But they were just sitting there like, you know, they don't want that fucking dead man detonator thing to go off. So when they hear the gunshots, they shoot up at the top of these glass windows that go into the conference room.

1:42:00 These fucking windows shatter.

1:42:02 There's like 19 SWAT people in the room. And when that dead man detonator hit... It didn't fucking work because he had put too much duct tape on it while he was trying to fix it.

1:42:15 So by some.

1:42:16 Fucking miracle of real life God, that bomb did not go off.

1:42:21 Wow.

1:42:23 And everybody lived.

1:42:24 Yay!

1:42:29 Except for the terribly mentally ill man who got shot five times.

1:42:34 Jesus.

1:42:35 Died on the way to the hospital.

1:42:36 Sorry.

1:42:37 I should have... I'm sorry I said everybody.

1:42:40 Can we take our chair back? I mean, listen.

1:42:44 All the hostages? Shit. Gwen still works at the Salt Lake City fucking library.

1:42:55 After party.

1:43:00 With Gwen.

1:43:01 And she says this amazing thing at the end of 2020. She was like, when bad things happen, you can either be a victim or you can be a survivor. And I love the library. And of course I still work at the library. It was just like fucking Gwen and your jewel tones, kicking down that knowledge.

1:43:18 Lloyd Prescott at.

1:43:19 The end of that 2020 was asked why he went into that conference room at such grave danger to himself. And he said, In the police force and in the military, it's your job to risk your life. That's why we have cops. God bless his soul. There he is! More jewel tones.

1:43:47 Lloyd. Lloyd.

1:43:50 Man, can you imagine?

1:43:51 Hey Lloyd. What if he and what's her face had fallen in love?

1:43:55 Married. Gwen and Lloyd across the table. That moment where he was like, don't take my jacket. She's like, fine, but I'm coming back for you.

1:44:05 Boom. Yeah.

1:44:08 That's my lifetime movie. I'll write it when I get home. Shit. Right?

1:44:14 That was amazing. Thank you. I was with you that entire time. That was fucking insane. I hit my microphone hard.

1:44:30 That's how good it was.

1:44:31 You know, I'd like to thank I Survived and 2020, the people who actually wrote that.

1:44:37 Well, now you're one of them.

1:44:39 That's right.

1:44:44 Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates?

1:44:46 There are no updates on this story, but We can go back into the episode and we can listen to a hometown, Salt Lake City hometown from an audience member.

1:44:56 Real personal story too. This one was heart-wrenching. Do we have time?

1:45:07 I think so.

1:45:10 Sit down. Everyone sit down. We have rules first.

1:45:14 There's rules and you need to listen. You were talking the whole time, so don't put your hands up. I got eyes like you wouldn't believe. If you would like to tell us your hometown this evening, there's a couple things to keep in mind. You can't be so drunk that you don't know your own story anymore.

1:45:32 It says Utah. They're not. They can't.

1:45:36 It's not.

1:45:38 I don't know. I'd like to make assumptions.

1:45:44 Make you feel alienated. Everybody in the room wants it to be local. So don't come up here with your Mississippi bullshit. It's what we want.

1:45:58 It's what everyone wants.

1:45:59 Local to Utah would be great.

1:46:01 You know you can't read, but we say that anyway. Don't be reading off of any kind of piece of paper. We just want to talk to you. We want you to chat it up. It's a great idea to keep it to, in your mind, like maybe two paragraphs because you have to remember that if you get picked, Everyone else in the room hates your guts. All right. Do your thing.

1:46:21 Can we get the lights up for a second?

1:46:24 Whoa. Whoa.

1:46:26 I hate this. This blonde person. Yeah, yeah. This blonde lady. Girl. She's the girl.

1:46:38 That's Vince.

1:46:43 Hi.

1:46:44 You can bring those lights down now. Thank you.

1:46:47 It's Holly, everyone.

1:46:48 Hi, what's your name?

1:46:50 Holly.

1:46:50 Hi, Holly.

1:46:51 Holly, come over here.

1:46:52 It's scary. You have to stand on the carpet or it's bad luck. Yeah, we have to.

1:46:57 Isn't it pretty?

1:46:59 You're going to take it home with you tonight. Hold the microphone, do your thing, and there's your pretty necklace. Okay. Holly, where are you from? Ogden, Utah. Oh, I talked about that place. It's a real place. Oh, my God. And first, I just have to tell you, you got to go see the new library. Right. Is it the best?

1:47:19 Can you just give us a quick rundown about the new library?

1:47:22 Super modern. Yeah. Glass, wood, elevators. All the elements. Books.

1:47:27 Escalators.

1:47:28 No escalators. Good. We're done with those.

1:47:31 Better for escaping.

1:47:33 Absolutely.

1:47:34 Is it nearby?

1:47:35 Yeah, it's on 400 South.

1:47:38 Oh, sure.

1:47:38 Great. Perfect. It's like two blocks, five to 20 blocks that way. Okay, we'll walk. You know what?

1:47:44 Let's go fucking see Gwen tomorrow.

1:47:46 2,000 people.

1:47:50 She's on the list. Her last name is Paige. Books, pages.

1:47:55 Come on.

1:47:58 Fuck it. You're killing it already, Holly. Thanks. I'm going to tell you, you have nothing to worry about.

1:48:02 I took a Xanax. What'd you say? I took a Xanax. She took a Xanax. No alcohol, just a Xanax. Prescribed by my doctor. Amazing.

1:48:15 I took a Xanax.

1:48:16 As bad as the whole time. God.

1:48:20 Time. God damn it.

1:48:21 Do you want to be the third member of this podcast? I've been dying. I mean, I'm like, can we be best friends?

1:48:26 Yeah, sure.

1:48:26 We are.

1:48:27 It's already happening.

1:48:28 Okay, I'm there. Okay, what's your hometown? It's really sad. So let's bring it down from where we are.

1:48:33 Well, why'd you say that Xanax thing then?

1:48:36 Sorry. So.

1:48:39 I live in Wyoming right now, but I used to live in Sanpete County.

1:48:44 It's in the center of the state. And I went.

1:48:48 Back a year ago to visit my family, my sisters-in-law, and a friend of mine who had moved across the street from my sisters. So we had planned to have dinner on Thursday night.

1:49:01 We got home.

1:49:03 Her lights were all off, so we're like, we'll hit her up on Friday. That night, we were out drinking. Chain smoking.

1:49:10 What? What?

1:49:12 Chain smoking.

1:49:13 Chain.

1:49:13 What brand?

1:49:16 It's kind of embarrassing, but it's camel crush. What's that mean?

1:49:20 You crush it and then it becomes fucking menthol.

1:49:23 That's right. It's amazing.

1:49:25 Menthol cigarettes will kill you immediately.

1:49:29 That's what I'm going for. I'm ready to go. No, I'm just kidding. They're delicious. They're fresh. They're not delicious. I love them.

1:49:39 Okay.

1:49:41 So, um.

1:49:43 My friend, Cami, she was engaged. And that night we were outside and it's wildlife outside. There's cows and chickens and cats and.

1:49:56 All sorts of animals.

1:49:57 And we heard a lot of noises and we thought it was just the wildlife and it wasn't. It was our friend Cami and she got murdered by her fiance.

1:50:07 And.

1:50:11 It was about 100 feet from where we were, and we were right there, and I had just started listening to your podcast, and I was probably listening to it while it happened, because I had gone to sleep at about midnight, and she, the police think it was about 1 o'clock, and it was one of the hardest things in my life, but, you know, good things happen, people survive, and Cammie, who was a wonderful person, and You know, her fiancé was arrested the next day. He told them that she had been with us and had been in a car accident and walked home and then got in the bath and he got up in the morning and she was dead.

1:50:55 Wow.

1:50:57 He had done it with a hammer and a shovel. It was bad.

1:51:02 They knew that, right?

1:51:03 Like they knew he was lying?

1:51:05 Yeah. Yeah. We had to answer some questions, but yeah. It was tough. Yeah. And I still feel really guilty about it, but. You shouldn't feel guilt. I mean, I get it. But yeah.

1:51:17 Sorry, how long ago was this?

1:51:18 It'll be a year in March.

1:51:19 Oh, wow. Yeah.

1:51:21 That's tough. Yeah. Yeah. But I love you guys, and I love you guys.

1:51:27 You get to smoke as many menthols as you want to.

1:51:30 I'm shaking smoking back to Wyoming.

1:51:33 Everyone's going to have a menthol cigarette tonight in memory of Cammie, right? Yeah.

1:51:38 Yeah, you have to.

1:51:39 Cammie, we smoked together.

1:51:41 We took a smoking cessation class together. So we quit smoking together, and then we started up again.

1:51:48 Well.

1:51:50 And you guys crushed it. Oh, my God. We crushed it. Thank you so much for being brave and coming up. Thank you. You're amazing. Holly, everybody.

1:52:03 Holly. Fuck. Shit.

1:52:14 And we're back. Karen, you want to give us any updates on the story?

1:52:18 There are some updates, actually. Kami Mae Edmonds' fiancé, Anthony Christensen, pled guilty to her murder and obstruction of justice in 2020. And he did admit that he beat her to death and tried to stage her death as a car crash. In March of 2020, Christensen was sentenced to two terms of five years to life and a third term of one to 15 years in Utah State Prison. Kami's mother, Tammy Coates, later started the Kami Mae Foundation to raise awareness about domestic violence. And you can find out more about the Kami Mae Foundation at kamimaefoundation.weebly.com.

1:52:53 Wow. Okay, so let's end this episode that was originally called Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City by naming it something we would name it today. For example, maybe we would call this episode.

1:53:06 The Zombie Contingent.

1:53:07 Yes. The zombie contingent. I wish there was just a zombie. Where's the zombie section at our live show?

1:53:15 Just like, yay.

1:53:17 Oh, we'd have to call it the smell of raves, of course.

1:53:20 The smell of raves. Yeah. That's a conversation that needs to continue. Screamers keepers, of course. That was a good one.

1:53:27 Shush scent.

1:53:28 Yeah. And of course, better for escaping.

1:53:32 Always.

1:53:32 Always.

1:53:33 Well, thanks for listening, guys. Let's go back to 2018 Salt Lake City and we'll say goodbye from Kingsbury Hall. Salt Lake City, thank you for having us.

1:53:45 Thank you. Thank you for....

1:53:52 What's that a picture of?

1:53:54 It's you. Is it a picture? It's a painting.

1:53:58 I guess it's too late to ask that question.

1:54:00 We'll ask tomorrow night.

1:54:02 I mean, I'm high as a goddamn kite. I don't know what's happening. This was such an amazing show, you guys. Thank you for being so smart. Thank you for being fucking so on it that you sold out tomorrow night's show and demanded this show. What a fucking honor.

1:54:21 That's crazy. What an honor.

1:54:27 It's... Yeah.

1:54:28 We... We appreciate your support so much. We can't believe we get to do this with our lives.

1:54:35 It's insanity.

1:54:36 And we're not just high in saying that. We really mean it.

1:54:39 No, that's sincere.

1:54:40 And we love the community that you guys have built and we're so stoked that we get to be part of it. So thank you guys so much for... For supporting us.

1:54:47 Yeah.

1:54:47 Being badasses.

1:54:48 It's so fun. It's so fun to watch you guys come out here. It's so fun to watch you guys meet each other and become friends with each other and build a community where we can talk about the hardest fucking things that happen to people in the world and still be okay.

1:55:04 I think that's kind of.

1:55:06 a big thing that happens with this podcast that we didn't plan. And it had not, of course we were just like, let's read true crime stories to each other. And something really beautiful and magical is happening with you guys and you're making it happen.

1:55:20 So thank you.

1:55:21 It's an honor to us what you guys are doing, honestly. So stay sexy.

1:55:33 Elvis, do you want a cookie?