PAPod 620 - From Risk to Mission: Rethinking Safety at Golden Gate

Hey everybody, welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. I'm Todd Conklin, your host. How's my voice sound? Kind of sexy. It's because, you know, I think I have a cold. Which means, officially, that autumn has hit New Mexico. Because I think it froze last night. I'm not sure. I mean, I haven't checked the details.

And those details are easy to get. I mean, it's not like I'm, you know, awash in a lack of data. There's plenty of weather data. But it just got cold. But it's supposed to warm up a little, so I'm giving a little hope for dragging this summer out as long as I can. As you know, that is always my goal. I hope you're good and things are great and grand and you don't have a little cold.

I have much to share, but I'm pretty excited just because I think it's always encouraging to realize that ultimately our goal is to do good in the world. I know we probably don't, like, I certainly didn't need to remind you of that. You knew that already. But I kind of think people forget that. Maybe I'm speaking about myself. Maybe I forget that.

And then I meet people and I'm completely happy and enlightened. And I think, you know, the world's a pretty groovy place. And it's filled with people just trying their best to get along. And people are resilient and strong and kind of amazing. And that is sort of what I want to talk about today, because I got to go on a little visit, a little assist visit.

No big problems. I mean, I wasn't there to solve the world's problems, but I kind of wanted to help out and got a call to work with the National Park Service. In Golden Gate in the recreational area. So that's a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, it's a whole bunch of stuff. It's a pretty cool place to go.

And I think it started with a discussion we were having with one of the senior leaders who probably doesn't want me to say his name, so I won't. But they were talking about the fact that the National Park Service has long attached safety to risk. And I just asked one question because I don't know anything.

And I just said, it strikes me that attaching safety to risk in your business seems kind of goofy. It seems like safety's job would be to make it easier to perform mission reliably and resiliently. And so I wouldn't attach safety to risk. I would attach it to mission. And I would ask the ultimate question, which is how can safety make performing mission in all kinds of conditions with all sorts of people, public-facing, visitors, hazards, mountaintops, snakes.

Bumblebees? I mean, we could make kind of a never-ending list of hazards. How can it make performing mission in an incredibly complex world better? Well, that was an interesting topic because that sort of opened up some stuff and we started talking about some stuff. And the next thing you know, just out of the blue, Mark Yeston and I are there visiting and getting to go out and talk to people. We talked to some great people.

Holy cow. We talked to the ocean rescue people, the lifeguard people. They're amazing. We talked to the trail crew people. We talked to all sorts of people. We talked to the crew that runs Alcatraz. And that's kind of where this starts because our hosts for the couple of days we were there and it was a quick trip.

I wish we could have stayed much longer were these two wonderful safety people. Actually, there were three, but we're only going to talk to two. And, uh, and they really helped rejuvenate my faith in humankind, not because anything specific they did, but just by what they were doing. And you forget, or I forget, and yet this is what we all do for a living, is we go out and talk to workers and have conversations.

You know, we don't go out to seek deviation or to audit stuff. I mean, sometimes we do go out to audit, but I'm not sure that's got a lot of benefit, certainly not culturally. We just go out to talk to people and ask them where the pain points are. Ask them what we could look at more carefully. What are we missing? What are we seeing?

And my favorite question is, you know, where are you operating on luck? Where do you not have enough control around a risk picture that you don't really know what's going to happen the next time something happens? You know, those kind of questions, you've asked them a million times. It's so much fun to go out with safety, applied safety, just field safety people. That's what they are.

And they helped us understand in great detail the importance of connecting with that workforce and really guiding the discussions and conversations. But I think most importantly, what I learned from these two guys. Maybe I relearned from these two guys is a better way to say that, is the importance of listening to the workforce.

And it was fun to watch. And so that's kind of the conversation we're going to have, because that day that we recorded this podcast, we're on a picnic table, at like Pier 31 in San Francisco. That's the place where the boats leave to go back and forth to Alcatraz, And we had just spent an incredibly interesting morning with the staff of Alcatraz We rode over on the worker boat because the first boat only carries the people who go over there to work, And then we put some chairs in a circle and talked to them about what it is they did.

We'd done that a bunch that week, but this was a really incredible conversation because it's Alcatraz. I mean, you know, there's just a lot going on there. Everything's falling apart. I did get the feeling that working there is like working in a prison. Haha, thank you. I'll be around all week. I love that joke. I don't know why they did not love that joke, but I love that joke.

But after we got back, I set two incredible people down and said, you want to talk to me about what we've done this week? And so you're going to get to meet Rick Hansen and Leo Shea. And they're going to tell you a little bit about the journey they're on. And what I'm going to ask you to do is listen carefully and see if it matches the journey you're on.

Let's have this conversation. It's just really the four of us, Rick, Leo, myself, and you. Hi there. I'm Rick Hansen. I'm a safety specialist here at Golden Gate National Recreation Area. What? Uneven sirs. Hello. My name is Leo Shea, and I am the acting safety manager here at Golden Gate National Recreation Area for the National Park Service in San Francisco, California. man.

So in case you don't know this, acting safety manager is the second worst job in the world. Safety manager is the worst job in the world. So just as long as we got that set up. So we just got back from what I say was a really interesting learning team at Alcatraz, which kind of makes this podcast interesting.

We probably don't even have to say anything, just you can think about that. It was certainly a pleasure to talk to the people that work there. It was also interesting to talk to people who may have one of the cooler jobs in the world. I mean, as far as getting invited to a party, that's probably a really good way to get invited to a party. I mean, that works out really well.

I think that was just one part of a really full week of just talking about the shift that's happening in safety from sort of the traditional, reductive view of where we try to remove and control risk at every level of the organization to a much more, I'm going to call it, for lack of better words, productive view, where we're really looking at how we can create systems that actually allow mission to be performed more reliably and resilient.

And you guys are a great place to begin that discussion because you represent so many varied types of work, all of them clearly exposed to risk, many types of risk, but you're dealing with very smart people who adaptively are kind of making this system go. What do you think your biggest challenge is as a safety person moving into this new area of thinking, this philosophical way of thinking?

Could this announcement go longer? I mean, I'm trying to. It's just nuts. Okay, so the tram has limited space. We got that going. That's actually one of our biggest fears. One of our biggest fears is that the tram will not run out of space because we've heard here, we've been part of the control here for the safety message is that it might.

But then if it doesn't, what do we do? Which is true. I mean, I guess you want to live in a world that under promises and over delivers. I mean, that's happiness right there. That's kind of the direction. Do you consider this announcement a part of your safety program for Alcatraz? It really is the longest announcement in the world. I guess you would say it is part of the safety program, but it's not something that we're running or orchestrating.

It is run, and this is something that's unique about our operation at Alcatraz, is that we have a partnered operation where, as the National Park Service, we partner with Alcatraz City Cruises and the National Parks Conservancy to run a very complex operation. And I think something that I'm taking away is that we had a conversation around asking better questions, asking different questions, engaging and leveraging the expertise that you have in your staff, and not being so when we identify a problem or a hazard, not necessarily starting with problem solving, but actually taking a moment to look at what have we done well?

What is working and how can that inform us to make better decisions around the areas that we have deficiencies or areas that we need to correct. We talked about the difference between, now remind me, complex and complicated. I think that's a really important concept. The notion of complex being many, you know, correct me, but many unique distinguishing factors that are linked in a system is something that perfectly describes the operation at Alcatraz.

When we think about we've got facilities, maintenance folks doing things like cyclic repair and ongoing needs for a historic resource that is a failing infrastructure in many ways. So how can we talk about looking at our operation through a different lens? And thinking about kind of decoupling or taking off each, making it bite-sized so we can approach the issues rather than trying to solve, right, how to make Alcatraz as an island a completely 100% safe place, which is, you know, in some ways unrealistic.

Is there another question here? There could be another question. I think it's interesting, too, because Alcatraz is simply one component of what you do. I mean, you guys, you have Muir Woods, you have the Presidio, you have, I mean. A million forts. And it's a hyper, like it is, you're right. We have a very dynamic park location, and Alcatraz has almost its own unique park onto itself.

It has its own sort of EMT and emergency services. It has, like we said, a very diverse multi-partnering operation that we have. You know, things like we have unique operations outside of just daily visitation like Fleet Week. We had the Super Bowl halftime show shot on Alcatraz this past year. So staff there are having to get really creative when it comes to non-routine tasks as well as the daily routine tasks and the hazards they have to deal with.

As a safety manager, what's that present? Because many people who manage safety in all sorts of organizations have complex environments, multiple sites. I mean, so you're not unique in that. I mean, I think it's unique because you have sites that are kind of knowable around the world. But how do you guys as safety managers, how do you split up your time?

How do you know where to go? How do you prioritize? I mean, because everything's a fire, but you don't have that many hoes. There's a plural of hoes that I should use. Well. You heard me use this metaphor earlier today. It's kind of like ballistic Tetris. You have to be positioned so that you know what the foundation is for the relationship in within our safety team so that we can tag in and tag out depending on what's happening during that day.

You can't get too attached to what your to-do list is going to be. Yeah. Because it's not your to-do list. It's an organic, movable do list for the park. And I think one of the things we saw in the course of this week with you is that question of how do things happen. Another thing that we saw was how.

The approach is based on questions rather than compliance towards a certain strict, hard set of rules. And another thing I think we really benefited from was your ability to tell your stories, because then people saw that as part of the culture of the individual meetings that we have, and it opened them up to tell their stories.

In very vibrant and detailed ways. So that's sort of what we do here at the park, Leo. We try to take the time to hit the brakes, be patient, and make time for that story and information to come out. Because otherwise we're never going to hear it. The group that I found, and they were all super interesting, I love all groups equally, but the group I think I found most illuminating to me were the Ocean Rescue guys.

So these are the lifeguards that sit in the chair on the beaches. They're full-time workers for the Park Service. These are professional lifeguards. That's what they do. And it was so interesting to hear them talk about how people perceive within the organization their functions. One of the things that I think is so interesting is we started this discussion, and they were amazing. They were glad to be there and happy to talk to us, but they weren't really certain what this was about, which is fair.

I mean, I don't think we could have clearly told them what was it about. But it was so interesting when they brought up the fact that what we measure are the number of rescues they do. But what they do is work nights, weekends, days to ensure that there never has to be a rescue. And it was so refreshing to hear a group of people who do this for a living and quite honestly are incredibly experienced at doing rescues.

Like I don't know how many you've done, but I've done none. Like I've never paddled out on a surfboard and saved somebody's life. It's just not something I've been given the opportunity to do. But these guys would talk about the fact that if they did the pre-work, they didn't ever have to do the rescue.

And I left there, and I'm amazed by this, but I left there realizing that the rescue is the least interesting part of what they do. That it's all the interface and contact they have with people who they can identify with years of experience being probably not ocean savvy, not good swimmers. And they can actually prevent the potential for them to have to go out and rescue by simply, intervening earlier with those weak signals.

What'd you guys think about that? You were a part of that conversation, a huge part of that conversation. What'd you leave with? I left with a sense of having a team that is really focused on planning and preparing for possible outcomes and spending a lot of time. We talked about that bow tie metaphor, spending a lot of time on the side of the bow tie around planning for the worst, right?

And I think about folks like law enforcement and Ocean Rescued who are rigorously, trained and retrained and have a lot of redundancies built into their systems. And I think that they're really good. what I observed are really skilled, and also I heard this specifically from the folks that we talked to, retention of knowledge.

And historic legacy process reference to what has happened before, what has worked, what hasn't worked in ways we've improved has been really critical to the success of that team. So building retention and institutional knowledge on a team has built trust and relationship building, and that's been a really big key to their success.

And to me, and Rick, I'll toss this to you because I'm curious to see what you think. What blew me away, probably maybe one of the more illuminating things that have happened in a long time, was when one of the ocean rescue guys, I think his name was Scott, right? He listed all the factors that would guarantee they would have to go into a rescue.

But he didn't think he was doing anything special. I mean, he was just telling us if this happens and it's hot in the valley and and I would guess there were nine or 10 things he listed. He said it's going to not be a good day for us. What I think we helped him do, and Rick, you were pretty instrumental in this, is to realize that that list of factors is really probably the most predictive tool we have and actually made their job better.

And that by formalizing that, and formalizing is the wrong word, by understanding that there are these factors, these, I would call them conditions, conditions necessary for a failure to happen that could actually really manage those weak signals in real time by sort of extrapolating which factors were there.

I bet you if we had more time, he would have said if there's six of the 10 or these are the big three, then we really get engaged. What do you think about that process? because it was amazing because I don't think he knew he was doing it. It was one of the best demonstrations of situational awareness that I have ever heard, both because it incorporated their own expertise and knowledge in the job they did, but because it was flowable, it wasn't fixed.

As they told their story, you can imagine their mind sitting up in the guard station, all right, having been briefed on what those preconditions were. OK, so the beach ecology is this. The surf is going to look like this. We're anticipating X number of visitors because we know it's going to be a hessy day, right?

And then they pull that in to a general framework. And then they're constantly scanning the beach up and down for what they can do and how they can interact with our visitors so that the failure doesn't happen. I thought that was amazing. I thought it was, it's poetic, it's creative, but also it's a common language that they all really understand.

They could probably describe any of the complex situations that one would see between like two lifeguard stations in a couple of words and they'd know exactly what to do. And to me, what is so significant about that is that's probably what expertise looks like. It's not a degree. It's the ability to give you a list of things that matter to them and not even realize they're giving you a list of things that matter. I mean, he was just talking to us.

What's your guys' challenge for the future? What are you going to do with an organization this complex, this geographically spread out, with really multiple missions that all exist at the same time? What are you guys thinking is next? What's ahead? What do you see as your biggest, potential positive breakthrough?

I think a key step, there's not going to be one clear answer here, but a key step is staying open to innovation and not being so moored or stuck or... Limited by the ways we've done things in the past. Certain, let's say, in-park or informalized procedures that may have benefited, our operations or our conditions at one time, but might not be really reflective of how we're operating now.

I think one of the biggest challenges will be how we continue to stay curious and open-minded and think critically and not fall back into, either old ways of thinking, kind of relying solely on just problem solving, or kind of going into the, let's say, antiquated or sort of older ways of thinking around safety, which is very hazard-identified heavy and risk analysis heavy.

I think there are ways in which this conversation and this time this week has given us different avenues to explore these dialogues. But I really think a critical piece ahead will be continued relationship building, trust building, and a willingness to stretch ourselves without breaking. Let me add to that, because I think it's worth adding, that when you build a safety program that's hinging upon obedience, what it kills is innovation.

And near as I can tell, I've thought about this a bunch, innovation is the lifeblood of safety. So if you don't innovate, then you just kind of go away, and that's a big part of it as well. Rick, what do you think? I think it's our challenge now. It's going to be a continuing challenge for us as we expand and improve our program is just taking care of our own team, our own wellness.

One of the things that I've experienced for myself is that I'll go through phases of being relatively well, relatively relaxed, relatively cogent, relatively present. And then it may be something that happens at work or it may be something that happens at home. And I'll kind of fall out of that rhythm a little bit. And what I've found over time is that I have to innovate my own new wellness solutions as I move along.

Because if I attach myself too hard to what always worked for me, then it doesn't work anymore. And the team as close as our team is, we talk about this. We have to help keep each other well. Then we're going to be at our best to follow these challenges. We're going to be best to either catch or duck the Tetris pieces if they come fly at us.

And then one other thing that I'll say is it's a constant practice for me not to take it personally. Final thoughts? I think you summed that uh something that i'm thinking about that you just named is kind of the need to be stay flexible and dynamic and um that's something that, i want to take forward out of um rather than leading with a fear of right falling out of compliance i want to lead with a fear of becoming either complacent or too set in my ways, right?

And staying open and interested and involved and engaged. Thanks, you guys. Yeah. That was it. That was it. I told you, it was just a great way to reconnect with the world and a great conversation. And I like where these guys are and what they're doing. And it's interesting because every organization, all of the organizations we all work in, have restricted resources. That's pretty normal.

And so that's kind of a bounding conditions. To work and live and survive and even more importantly thrive with restricted resources, that's where we become adaptive and creative. And that's where we can really learn that we have some force multipliers out there. And those force, I can't even talk, those force multipliers, well, that's the people who do the work.

Because nobody is more of an expert on how to do a job than the person who just did the job. And when you fill that force multiplier up with really, really sharp, amazing, interesting people who genuinely want to do the best, safest, most reliable, and resilient work they can do, there's much for us to learn. There's no question about it.

It's a great lesson in both humility, which is a huge lesson, curiosity, which Amy Edmondson tells me is even more important than psychological safety, and she kind of knows, and I think the ability for us to become wiser. More profitable towards doing good in the world. And like I said at the beginning of this podcast, I kind of think that's why we're all here.

If we lose track of the fact that our job is to do good, we're probably doing it wrong. Think about it. It was a great conversation. It was a great opportunity. Special thanks to those guys because they were amazing. Until then, learn something new every single day. Bet you did today. Have as much fun as you possibly can. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other.

Take care of each other, even the least among us. That makes a huge difference. I promise you. And until then.

PAPod 620 - From Risk to Mission: Rethinking Safety at Golden Gate

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