#Ep55 - Gemma Hillier Moses | UTMB Debrief, Women's Racing & the Power of Community

0:00 Hello, welcome back to the Run Through Trails podcast. Today I'm super excited to have Gemma on the podcast. Not only is she my coach, but she's also an incredible trail runner. She's had an amazing 2026 season, starting off with first at Arc 50K, uh 50 Miler. Sorry. Always get confused when they call it ARC 50 at 100k distance technically for UTMB.

0:22 Four foot Kianti 100 Miler, which again it's not actually as the distance. It says about 120k. UTMB are just trying to confuse us. First at St Jack's 50K, and then finishing the season with 12th at CCC, improving from 22nd the year before. So, and a really epic year of running. And I can't wait to unpack it all.

0:42 How are you, Gemma?

0:44 I am well, thank you. Yeah, I've got my brew, which is an important part of podcasting. I feel like I haven't been on the Run Through Trails podcast for a while. And it's really nice to be doing this with you, Beth. Usually, um, over the last year, I've always debriefed on a run through trails podcast with Lewis and James.

1:01 So this is a different change mixing it up, which is really cool. So excited to talk to um talk to you throughout. Yeah.

1:08 No, I'm really excited. I think I've actually listened to every single one of your debriefs on Spotify. So I'm now excited to actually get to ask the questions. Nice, no pressure. No pressure at all. But for those who haven't met you before or haven't listened to the previous episodes, of which definitely listen to them because they're very good episodes.

1:26 Um, do you want to introduce yourself, Gemma?

1:28 Yeah, so I guess I'll keep it brief because if I um I do have a big story behind me, so if I do spend too much time on it, um it will take a while. It'll be a whole um podcast episode in itself. But I am Gemma Hilliomoses. I'm professional trail runner for Hoker and Cunto. I am also a coach for run through coach as well, and uh tea lover and drinker.

1:50 No, I love that. Did you did your tea supply keep you going for the whole time you're away? That's the main question.

1:56 It did, and we were actually surprised. So I took one of those massive Yorkshire tea bags, um, the the massive bags with all the tea inside it, and I still have some left when I got home. So I was really surprised at that. I don't think I drank as much tea as I do at home. I think when I'm at home and I've been training and then I'm working for some of the day, I think I just like go through a lot of cups of tea.

2:16 Whereas I guess a lot of the time I was out running, so I didn't I didn't take on as much.

2:21 But I still got through a big bag, so I'm glad there was some left, otherwise it would have been withdrawals of definitely, definitely.

2:28 Yeah, I actually left some with um Luke Graham for sure. So I left some Yorkshire tea bags with him because he's staying in France. So I think he was very happy to have the leftover stash.

2:36 Oh, I love that. So kind of jumping straight in, so you raced CCC last year and you came 22nd, which was still an incredible result. It was your first time kind of stepping up to that distance and that amount of elevation. What were kind of your key learnings from CCC this year, no, last year, that shaped this year's training, race planning, and yeah, what made you want to do CCC again as well?

3:02 So I actually looked at my blog. I created a blog on Substack last year after the CCC, and it was actually really good to look back at what I wrote in that blog and um what my reflections were and and how I felt about the race. And I think so. Last year was my first time stepping up to the 100k distance.

3:20 So it was actually my longest run by like seven or so hours, but also thrown in there, I had a gluten mead tear after Chianti. So in 2025, I did the 75k in Chianti and recover seemed to recover really well off it. I won, I won the race. Um everything was really positive. I was in very, very good shape then actually.

3:39 But then for some reason, um I ended up with a gluten mead tear. I've never had a, never really had a proper muscle tear before. It's always been some sort of bone or by mechanical issue. And so I had eight weeks off from I think it was from I didn't get back running until like beginning of June. Um, so actually looking back, there was a lot of missed time leading into the CCC in 2025.

4:03 And I spent like eight weeks on the bike. I um progressed the running in June, but we had to get quite quickly back at it because of um the CCC coming up and made a decision that I was still gonna race because I felt like, you know, 10 weeks was enough time, but it was essentially 10 weeks from bike to um bike to 100k.

4:24 And so it was a big step forward. And training was going really well through the summer. I was quite surprised how well I'd got on my back climbing, like my climbing was actually really good. But I did have a lot of problems with my hips in terms of descending and just conditioning. So sometimes, like in the night, I couldn't I when I rolled over, my hips would be like in agony, and there was nothing wrong.

4:44 It was just muscular. You go to the Alps and you're just taking on a lot of demand from the course and the terrain. And so the conditioning wasn't quite there for that 100k distance. And I felt that during the race, like I felt like my flat speed wasn't as fit compared to this year, and I'll I'll compare it when you ask your questions, but compared to this year, my flat speed wasn't as good because I just didn't have time to get back fit.

5:07 Like I think bike fit, I don't do what a lot of other people do on the bike. It was like 10 to 12 hours on a turbo in the week, and people do like 20 to 30 hours, so it's very different. Um, so my fitness was good, but it wasn't where it needed to be to compete in the 100k. So I was actually really, I look back and somebody um I spoke to one of the elite athletes and they said where they'd finished previously in CCC and how it was a rubbish performance, and and it was actually a position a lot further ahead than that 22nd place.

5:39 And I was really careful not to let that um, not to absorb that and say actually I was quite really proud of my 22nd place last year because of everything that I'd gone through and also everything it took to get to that start line. And although I wasn't in the best shape possible, um, it was actually a brilliant performance to cross that finish line in that time, given those circumstances.

6:00 So what happened was in the last half of the race, like I couldn't, I ended up with a bit of a hip tear, so I couldn't really lift my hip and legs over like really rocky terrain. I was fine on the non-rocky stuff. I had struggled, struggled descending in the last couple of descents of the race. And I also, for some reason, which we're not quite sure, I had really bad nausea from like seven hours in, so I didn't eat anything.

6:24 No, from five hours in, actually, so I didn't eat anything pretty much for like seven hours of the race. So a lot very, very different to this year. But the biggest learning for me on the race, which I took into this year, that was that nobody has a smooth race. So nobody, you talk to people who win and something goes wrong, something happens, something they're having to navigate or um, you know, problem solve.

6:48 No one's really in, it's very rare to get that full flow state race in long ultras when everything feels amazing. Because even if everything's going well, it doesn't feel amazing sometimes. So that was actually really good for me that in my first 100K, things went badly wrong. And I had to dig really deep to even get myself across that finish line.

7:08 And I think that that was a big learning of like, even if I have the best preparation, I'm in the best shape that could ever been. I've done all my nutrition stuff. Something is gonna, at some point, it's gonna get really, really hard, and I've got to battle through it. And I think having that mindset really helped me this year and will help me in other races in the future as well.

7:27 No, that's so true. And I think trail running, it's a problem-solving sport, it's not a sport that's ever straightforward. And I think once we delve into CCC this year, it definitely was a problem-solving sport again this year. Um, but like 22nd was incredible, and it's brave to put yourself out there because you could have quite easily just been like, you know what, it's not been the year that I was hoping for, things went a bit wrong, I'm just gonna step back.

7:50 But you learn so much, and like I always think with racers, you either win, as in things go well, or you learn, and like either way, that's a win because it's setting you up for better race in the future, and it's like, well, this year you might not have done so well if you hadn't had like a less so good lear last year, and like 22nd as well.

8:08 And that last year's field was so stacked, so yeah, a really incredible performance. But kind of you've already touched on what your main learnings were, but from your race last year, what made you pick doing like ARC, Kianti again, and the lead up to CCC this year?

8:25 So the reason I picked the ARC was one, it was a UK race, which is amazing to have a UK trail race in January. I think it years ago, they well, they never used to have races like that early on in the season. So it's a perfect kind of starter for your trail season um in the year. I did arc 25 miles the year before and absolutely loved that.

8:47 So I had a really good race there and um was kind of competing against Sarah Alonso and had a really positive experience, so wanted to go back. Um, so I did want to go back, however, it was Lewis's idea, and I heard about the 30k section in the arc and was like, I don't know if I want to do that in January in the mud.

9:06 And we ended up getting it a lot worse. So originally it was Lewis's idea to say actually the 50 miler would be really sensible because we need to start stepping up the distances towards CCC because the year before, you you can't do everything in a year. So the year before, you have to take each thing step by step.

9:24 And we'd done the long runs, and we were hoping the training um in the summer last year would then prepare me for CCC. And in hindsight, it it did, it was fine, but in hindsight, you need some of those, or at least one longer race. So this year, like the arc was I think around an eight-hour race. Um, I might be wrong, but I think it was.

9:43 And then the reason we did Kianti was because it would be similar. So Kianti was 120k with 5,000 plus metres of elevation, but a very runnable. There are technical parts to it, but a very quick course, but it would be the same amount of hours or similar to what CCC would be. So it would give us a chance to race the race distance, but also practice the fueling and nutrition and test out that dur where that durability really is.

10:08 Um, so that's why we then did the ARC. And then it was either going to be the Europeans, which I put myself forward to and for and didn't get selected because I did Chianti as instead of their trial race. Um, that is what it is. And then I did St. Jack's instead, which was a fast 50K, um, because I'd been working on like my speed and my running, and my running was in a really good place.

10:31 I was fitter than I've ever been. And so it's good to be able to still translate that to a fast 50k. And then I actually did an uphill race in Cormaur four weeks, I think, before the CCC. So a VK, which was really good, an amazing experience. Um, I managed to win that and get this incredible trophy. So kind of that was really good because I was able to recover quickly for that, do my training, and then um, yeah, get ready for CCC.

10:59 I was gonna say that is like the world's biggest trophy. Like it's crazy. It like it gave me like a dollhouse vibe, like you know, like it's a proper like little setup, like it looks so cool because it's a it's a landscape of the actual mountain you ran up, right?

11:15 Yeah, it's this big wooden trophy that's probably like this, yeah, this size, and then it lights up. And I mean, if I'd have been flying home, it would have been an absolute nightmare to get in. Um, I don't think I'd have to carry it through the airport, but luckily we were driving home and the car, I took way too much out with me this summer.

11:32 The car was jam-packed, and this trophy had to have its own space on the floor, so it wasn't ideal, but it's amazing and it's it's so good to look at, and it just yeah, it just shows you like with or without CCC, like you can achieve other things in the summer as well, which is really nice.

11:48 No, I love that. So you kind of just touched upon it. You've been away, you're on Hoker Camp. So you were with Hoka Camp for three weeks, which I believe last year you did the one week. So, how was Hoker Camp life and what made you step up to three weeks with the Hoker team?

12:05 Hoker Camp was brilliant. We had an amazing girls' chalet that was awesome. And sometimes, yeah, people think putting girls in a chalet or women actually in a chalet all together could be a nightmare. But actually, everyone was so nice. There was no egos, we all got on really well. Um, we had a mixture of ages, experiences from different countries and cultures, which was really cool.

12:27 So I um I got really friendly with Hanukkah, who's a Japanese athlete who was actually seventh in my CCC race, and she's the most amazing person ever. So lovely, and she didn't speak a word of English before she came, and then we were helping her teach her to teach her English, and it improved massively.

12:44 I actually helped a teacher to say pop the kettle on, which is very British. Um, and then we had some American ladies who were awesome, and yeah, we had um yeah, we had such an amazing group of people. We were, you know, we were embroidering our packs, taking our minds off running, we were doing movie nights, we were doing group meals.

13:06 So, although you had a lot of training and running to do, of all of the stuff outside of it was really good and really relaxing. And I think it gave you the balance that you needed in what could be like a really intense environment. And I'm so thankful for those girls and well ladies, I can't keep calling us girls, but ladies for for enabling us to kind of relax and and get on really well.

13:28 Because I think you could have a completely different environment. Um the guy shallies, there was other um people in there as well. I think we had four challies, and um, yeah, the Hoker environment is really relaxed, it's like a big family, and you have, you know, you're there for business, you are a trail runner, and it is your job to train and perform well, but it's also important to create an environment and a culture that breeds success, but also breeds that um relaxed environment as well.

13:56 And I felt like Hoker really did that really well. They looked after us really well, they fed us and got a chef in for the first week when we had some more media duties, and then they um, you know, they left us to do what we needed to do, but with all the tools and things that we needed to do it correctly.

14:11 So yeah, it was great fun. No, that's amazing. And like I just loved watching everyone's different Instagram stories, hearing all about it. And I think one of the nicest parts was that it was just teammates supporting teammates, like it could be a really competitive environment, like what you just said about like egos and like people being worried about the race, or like you're kind of living with your competitors, but it just gave such nice vibes, and I think that's something that I took away from UTMB like altogether is that trailrunners just love supporting trailrunners.

14:38 Like, for example, when Lauren Gregory beat Naomi Lang with like by three seconds, the video of Naomi's face in the final stretch, he was just so happy for Lauren. And like, yes, you're gonna be a bit disappointed, but like it was just trailrunners supporting trailrunners and like seeing people hugging each other and excited for other people to win.

14:57 Like it was a beautiful moment when Tony McCann saw Yingerwind win and stuff like that. And I just love the trailrunning community because everyone's so supportive of each other and like so happy for each other, which I don't know whether you get that in other competitive sports quite to the extent that trailrunner's got, but did you have that kind of community energy in the Hoker camp?

15:16 Absolutely, yeah. And you you end up with like a lot of these girls that I didn't know and the guys I didn't know before I came to the camp, and you end up, you know, with friends for life. And I think the reason is there's a there's a deep respect for what we do. It isn't just about how fast you can run and physiology, like you go through so many different emotions and what you have to do in your races and in training.

15:37 It's I think there's a yeah, a huge level of respect for each other. But I think that I I thrive in those sorts of relaxed environments, so I don't, I don't like or I don't want intensity, like when what I've been through with terms of cancer and understanding and having that perspective that you only have one life.

15:54 So I am going to try and have fun with it. And there are times, you know, where you have to be serious, or or during the day I had to work and you have to kind of remove yourself off from everybody else and just crack on with what you need to do. But actually, having that fun time, so like we were um Elanie was one of the American girls who bought a lot of embroidery and bedazzling stuff with her, and we as girls like were bedazzling our packs, and you know, I embroidered a heart on it, and and we were doing that together, and it was like that team bonding that was really nice.

16:24 And this year, we also said that next year on the feedback form, we need to say that the Hoker need to bring a nail artist and a beauty artist into the camp so that they can do our nails pre-race, and we're all talking like that type of stuff, and I think that's that's the environment that I thrive on.

16:40 So, like a happy runner makes a successful runner, and and I think that yeah, the more relaxed things can be for me, the better. Um, so it was definitely a really good environment for me to be part of.

16:51 I love that, and I would love to see like really cute nails, like little Tectanexes on your nails or something. So yeah, that'd be really cool. Kind of jumping into your race. So we've kind of touched upon CCC was definitely a problem-solving race. So the night before, we'll go from the start, they announced a course change.

17:09 It was quite late in the day as well. What was like your initial reactions of the course change, and how did you kind of cope with the change as an athlete?

17:17 Yeah, it's a great question. I so Lewis was, we were in Cormaya. I was in Kormaya with my mum and dad because we were staying for the two nights before the race. Um, Lewis was actually over at the OCC watching um some of his athletes were in the OCC. So I got the text message, I messaged Lewis, and I knew that he'd, you know, make the time to go through it.

17:36 So by the time he came back, he'd already had the conversation with Luke and Joe, who are his other athletes that were racing CCC. Um, but what I said, what I said was I'm gonna, I looked at the map and um I saw that it was the OCC part of the course was the OCC course last year, the Martini descent from the Boveen down into Martini, and then so it's like nine, eight hundred metres of descending, and then up the Martini climb to the coal um coal de floorcas, down into Treant and then up the Triant climb.

18:07 And I and I was like, okay, well, what can I do now? Like, I can't really work out my nutrition. This, that's, I'm gonna leave that to Lewis. But what I can do is watch the live stream from last year. So I sat there watching the live stream of the OCC from 2025 to try and get to know that that descent and that climb, um, which was really good actually, because I'd I'd watched it last year live, but it just gave me a really good insight in into because there's a lot of road crossings as you go down the Martini descent.

18:35 And then um there was some technicality stuff, like some Cheney type stuff. But then when I looked at it, I was like, okay, this is all right. So I was surprisingly relaxed about it because I think that it's still a trail, it's still a race. And and I also know that we'd recceed the whole of the course.

18:53 So I know the CCC course really well. Like I when I go to Chamoli, I run on a lot of the trails because they are some of the best trails. But I also like in races sometimes when you don't know where you're going, it can make things go really quickly. Um, it can is like a little bit of an adventure. So I was able to quickly, I was able to just have the mindset of this is fine, this is just a change.

19:14 It is longer, but you know, what is longer like is what it takes you. Um the only thing that I'd memorize a lot of my nutrition, so I had to, that was the only change, but it didn't really cause any issues because we have a good strategy and time and strategy. So yeah, I was actually all right about it.

19:32 Like I was just that is what it is. Um, and that shows when your mindset in is in a good place um to have that change, you know, to be okay with that change and to adapt to it pretty quickly.

19:45 No, I love that. And it I guess it is so easy to kind of be like, oh my god, I'm already nervous for the race, and now this has happened, and now it's just like catastrophized bass. I think that's what I would do. Um, so it's yeah, it's good though to have like have practiced that mindset and just be like, you know what, it's what it is, and you never know what can happen on race day.

20:04 And as we'll discuss later, there was even more changes. So I guess once you um overcome the first change and be like, it's okay, it kind of sets you up to take on more changes in like a level-headed mindset.

20:16 So absolutely, and I think for people who do struggle with that change, it's like looking at what you can control. So, like, I knew that you know, I can't control a course change. This is the decision that's been made, and and actually, like, what is my why am I doing this? It's to be out on the trails all day because I love competing, I love the challenge.

20:34 So, what does a course change change? It just means that I don't know part of the course, or I like we're doing part of a course that I've never ever done before. But actually, have I done a lot of races where I've never seen the course before? Absolutely. Like I did Keanti 120k this year, and yes, I'd seen some of the course from last year, but I didn't recite it and I still loved it and enjoyed it.

20:54 And if you can descend, you can descend. If you can climb, you can climb. Nothing changes. Um, and everybody's in the same boat as well. And I think the key is not to panic because you can cause a lot of stress if you do panic. So it's focusing on what you can control, it's taking the steps that you need to take and who's responsible.

21:11 So I knew what Lewis would be responsible coming back to me. I knew I needed to watch the live stream, and and once I'd done that, that was done. And I was just waiting for then his instructions. We kept it very clear, very simple, and then we went to bed and it was race day, and it was it was fine.

21:26 No, I love that. So race day. So it's a 9 a.m. start, I believe, in Cormay. The weather was pretty horrific. ARC was good conditioning for it. Um, which CCC's been a bit unlucky the last two years. Like it's been, I couldn't believe it when I saw the weather forecast. It's literally been glorious sun for weeks.

21:48 And then, of course, CCC Day will bring the rain, the bulk, the muds, um, what British runners have been training for all yeah. Um, but how was the start? So the start is a pretty big. Climb, it was muddy and wet. But how did you find the start and get and go on such a big climb?

22:08 So the start, it was absolutely chucking it down, first of all. And the weather, Meteo Blue, who's been so accurate over the summer that I check, was not accurate because it said at night, eight to nine o'clock or ten o'clock, there was no, there was no cloud or there's no rain on the radar. It was going to be fine.

22:24 And it just chucked it down. It didn't stop chucking it down. Um, but like you say, you use past race experiences to say you're gonna be okay. And I'd raced in really bad conditions, and I think mentally I'm prepared for it all. Like if it's sunny, it's still gonna provide its challenges when it was hot.

22:41 Like last year it was 25 to 30 degrees and it was boiling, and then it the rain came down in the final part of the race. So that had its own challenges of being hot all the way around. This year it was chucking it down from the beginning and pretty much I think on and off chucked it down all day. And then we got a really hot spot actually, which I can talk about once we get to kind of the Champagne Lac side of things.

23:02 But um, yeah, the to be honest, once we set off, it because it was about 16 to 17 degrees, you didn't really need a jacket. However, getting up to the top of the peaks, it was cold. Like the top of the first climb was absolutely freezing. And it depends on how you handle cold. But you know, I've got rainers, I have a few circulation issues, so my hands and feet do get really cold.

23:22 So, like about before this, this the end of the climb, which is really, really steep, I got my jacket out because the rain and the wind, and I think we were going through the cloud, just started to come down. And I was like, actually, even though we're descending, this could get really, really cold and um kind of really dangerous quite quickly.

23:40 But for me, the first climb, I think this year I was in a lot better shape in terms of my flat speed. So I was really, I felt really comfortable. I mean, there's no flat, but I felt really comfortable on the first climb. Um, and I was with the lead group of women, like we were all together, and I felt like I belonged there and I felt comfortable there.

23:59 Um, and then it actually goes into like a single track after a while. And instead of panicking, I just you just sit behind. It is like a bit of a conveyor butt all the way up. So you're sitting behind men and women going up. And sometimes that's where gaps can happen to the lead women, and you have no idea where they are, which sometimes is a bit of a shame.

24:22 But what it means is you're you're moving up the climb with everybody else together. You're trying not to push too many things because that first climb you can definitely overdo it. So I actually felt I was checking in on my breathing rate. I did wear my heart rate monitor on the first climb. However, it completely froze at like a certain number and didn't change for like four hours.

24:43 So it was completely useless. So then I just had to go on my breathing rate because I know that's a good way to tell what zone you're in, whether you're in steady tempo or like max. So I felt like I definitely had good control over that first climb. But the first climb was so muddy. I couldn't believe it.

25:01 So we've been, I've done that climb quite a few times and I've been on the course quite a few times. And even when it's rained, it usually just goes like a good dry instead of too sandy. It's like it's kind of sticky, which works really well. And this time I must have absolutely hammered it down through the night because the mud was ridiculous.

25:19 And I think if you didn't have poles, it would have been really hard because you had to kind of dig in on the steeper sections to get that grip. Um, and unfortunately, the shoes that I chose were not the best for the first climb and descent. They were amazing when the mud stopped coming, but I took a bit of a risk and it was fine for the rest of it.

25:42 But I struggled a little bit on that first defense and first descent with how muddy it was and slip and slide. Um, but yeah, other than that, it they were great.

25:52 Yeah, I'm gonna ask you actually about your shoes because I did do a cheeky zoom in to try and figure out what shoes you're wearing. Were they prototypes? No, they weren't.

26:00 They were actually the Tecton 2s, um, which aren't available anymore. So I was gonna wear the Tecton 4s, but I had a little bit of a planter fashion issue, not from them, just a tight planta before the race. And I'd I'd wore the Tecton 2s quite a lot, and so I just decided um they're just they're lower to the ground, less cushioning, and I just decided that they were the right ones to wear, and they and they were for me in the end.

26:25 The Tekton 4s would have been absolutely fine. I just didn't want to take the risk on race day because I actually hadn't worn them enough, so I'd only got them later on in the summer, so I hadn't worn them enough. And they're a mate, I you know, I've worn them for a couple of runs, they were really comfortable, but I'd worn the Tetan 2s actually for the whole summer, so um I went with them in the end.

26:44 Um just because on technical terrain with my style, I needed something a little bit lower to the ground, but I still wanted carbon in it. So the Mafati 5s would have been really good, but I just wanted carbon to have that, you know, the balcon section and some of the really renewable sections just to have a little bit of that oomph to get me around.

27:04 No, I used to have the Texan 2s, actually, I really liked them. Although I had them because I didn't really understand trail running, and I was like, oh, these are like hybrid shoes. So I wore them for everything. This was back in the day when I didn't really understand what I was doing, and I just thought, oh, they'll be great for road running, they'll be great for trail running.

27:19 So they just looked like nice shoes, but they were so comfy and really good. So I could see them doing well in a long race. So you've kind of discussed a little bit about the women's field, but across the race, how clear was it on where the other women were? Did you have much communication on how the field was pretty spread out?

27:37 So, were you aware of what other people's races were?

27:41 So a little bit because this year I was around around a lot of women, which was really good. So often there was times where after the first descent, the balcon section, I was actually running in a group of women, but I didn't really know what those placings were. Um it was hard to see the the front girls because even though because I think at times like they were like, you know, three to five minutes ahead, but you didn't know that because you didn't get information around that.

28:08 And then obviously later on that got a lot a lot longer. Um, the m biggest amount of information I got was when I was running with Emily from who's um Adidas, and her coach was on the course after La Fouli, literally everywhere, giving her like your 16th, your 17th place, your 30 seconds from like this place, and just constant updates.

28:31 So I was like, okay, I kind of know I'm in the top 20 now. Um, but before that I didn't really know. But then obviously Lewis, we me and Lewis had discussed not necessarily giving me had giving me an idea, but not because what I didn't want to do was change how I was running. That's really important that you don't just react, you actually do the same thing.

28:50 And and Lewis is saw me at La Fouley before going to Champagne Lac, where it was a crude aid station. And then at that crude aid station, he gave me a lot more information. But the biggest information was just keep doing what you're doing because you're moving through the field. Um, because if you suddenly start to change and chase, it sort of changes your race and it's not the time to do it.

29:09 In the latter part of the race, I had a lot of instructions from Lewis about where people were and and how to chase, but um, up until that point, I um it was all about running your own race. Um, but if I'm honest, I yeah, there was times when I look back now and so I let gaps get a little bit too big in like the balcon section.

29:31 And I have a little bit of regret there of sitting behind a pack of girls because I knew they were pacing it well, but I probably felt a little bit too good. And that's where I could have, with my running speed and skill, I could have probably ran a lot quicker because I can't do what an Ingrid did. She she kind of sat back and then flew, like it's having the ability to do that.

29:52 Not many people can do what Ingrid did. Um, and again, it's maybe just having that belief to push that little bit more if you're still in that right zone on those really runnable sections to get the gaps that little bit bigger or close the gaps to the front girls. Um, so yeah, still wasn't the perfect race, but you never know how your legs are going to turn out.

30:14 So sometimes you make those decisions based on going the distance. And now I think I'll have a lot more confidence in what my legs can actually do.

30:24 No, I love that. And I think women's racing is just so different to men's racing, which I find so interesting. So it is hard because it's like, oh, I could go hard, but you've still got, you know, eight hours of running to go. It's like it's hard to know where to place yourself and what you're doing.

30:39 Yeah, I think the reason it's different to men's in something like the CCC is because the men all stay together at the front and the women are separated by other men. And it means that you can't just look up the road and see a woman because you've got so many bodies in front of you. Whereas in the smaller races, like the World Series races, you can see where people are and you have an idea, but with CCC, it's very different.

31:02 So that makes it hard like to be together and be together, especially on the single track trails. And when somebody gets away, you don't see that move as much. Um, so it makes it difficult. But I mean, I heard rumblings before the race about people thinking that a women's only, if they start at seven o'clock in the morning, would be better.

31:21 But I think it's still there's still a lot of value to having men in the race because a lot of the other ultras, you spend a lot of time on your own, and towards the latter part of CCC, you are on your own. But actually, I was around quite a lot of girls. But then it is good having the guys in there because some of them are going backwards, so a confidence booster of you coming through, but some of them are also moving forward.

31:41 Like I ran the Martini climb with one of the guys um in the race, and that was great. Like we were having a little chat to each other, it helped me with pacing because he was running at a similar um speed to me, and it just gave me that company that maybe you wouldn't have if you just had a women's only race.

31:55 So yeah, I definitely think it's still really good that we all go together, but I think the races are different because of what that looks like. Like the men's feels like it's more of a race race, the women's is your race within the race, and then it's what you can all do depending on pacing, unless you are like, you know, competing next to each other.

32:15 No, I love that. And it's it's just interesting. Like it is cool to kind of look at different people's race strategies and stuff like that. So actually, your when you look at like your graph of like position, like it's very satisfying. You're literally overtaking the whole way. I think it was from La Fouley onwards, overtaking the whole way, and La Fouli it was only like one place drop, and it was basically just green the whole way.

32:37 Was that kind of the plan to kind of progress into the race and hopefully have a stronger second half?

32:44 Yeah, it was definitely the plan. Um, the plan was actually still to be closer um than I was at La Fouli. So I think the Balkon section, I made the decision to sit behind a group. In hindsight, I would have gone past that group now. So that was the decision that is currently sitting with me. That I'm like, ah, can I take that back?

33:04 Can I go back and do that again? Because I think there was ground to be made and I felt so good. But for me, last year I got to Champagne Lac and I was really struggling. I hadn't eaten. Um, my legs were just screwed. Whereas all I wanted to do was get to Champagne Lac with a smile on my face with legs.

33:21 And I got to Champagne Lac with a smile on my face and with legs, and that felt amazing. Um, and that's why, you know, I had a really good descent into Martini, I had a really good climb. I struggled on the Treant climb for other reasons, which I can go into. But but yeah, the the the idea, I always race while coming through a field.

33:40 Um, but last year I felt like I got I got hunted down. Like last year, Phoebe Pascal came down past me into Treant, and I was like, I don't want that feeling again. Like I'm fine if people come past me, but if I can respond or I know I've got legs, but it's a horrible feeling when someone comes past you and you can't respond and you've not got legs and you're knackered and there's still a long way to go.

33:59 Um, so I do race a lot better doing that. And I and first of all, like 108, it was a longer race as well. So I think that was some of the reason why we paced it, we went off a little bit cautious than we would have done if it was maybe 100k. Um, but I think I've kind of confirmed to myself that I've got the durability now, so I just need to have a bit more confidence.

34:22 It's amazing, and it is hard because it's like you could have pushed forward and then regressed it later in the race, or you could have sat now and like been like, oh, I should have done it. It's like so hard knowing in the moment, and like it's a lot of decision making. So it's a lot to think about in the race.

34:38 And I think when I say pushing forward, it it's all about that intensity. It's like not you if you run a little bit faster, you're not going into the red because you're currently very comfortable you're comfortable currently sitting on a very comfortable intensity. So it's just like that little bit like you know, 20 seconds a mile quicker takes you into like high easy instead of low easy.

34:58 And it's but again, it's like the longer races, it's about that muscular endurance and that muscular damage as well. So you never know really what that does. So don't you don't regret decisions, but you should definitely learn from how you execute things as well.

35:11 No, so true. So within the race, they decided to remove Le Fajre Descent, and they it was following the same route. Was it the same route as the MCC course into the finish?

35:24 Or have I made the OCC course, but it wasn't. So there were two changes, I think. I'll tell you, yeah, if you want me to explain them.

35:32 Yeah, so what were the changes and how was that communicated mid-race and what was kind of your initial reactions?

35:40 So how it was communicated, I ran into La Fooley and Lewis said there's been a course change, you're not going up Flagre at the end. So I was like, okay, well, I'm at La Fouley, I've still got ages to go. I I didn't really, I was like, I don't need to think about this. And I was thinking, great, you know, if you're gonna take out another climb, that's not bad for me.

35:58 Because of the I knew the Martini climb was like we'd got the Martini climb, small descent, and then the trion climb. So that's huge. That's like 2,000 meters of climbing, which is more than with nothing really in between. So I was like, well, it's probably good for all of our legs if we don't go up Flagre.

36:15 And Lewis said after the race that it was communicated in the aid stations to them. Um, and then Hoker had sent him a message to say with the GPX file. However, then there was another communication or the GPX file was then updated, and then they were taking us up Flagre, but not all the way up Flagre.

36:36 So, what the first change was gonna be, apparently, so I did I didn't know this during the race, but why I was told that you're not going up Flagre, the first change was gonna be to run us into Argentier after Valacine and do the OCC finish, which was the same as the MCC finish. So over the bridge in Agentier, down the Balcon de Sud, up a little bit, and then down to meet the like up and rolling, and then down to meet the Flagare, last part of the Flagère descent.

37:05 And then they changed it to actually we're going up Flagre. So we went half, no, we went pretty much nearly all the way up, other than the really steep bit before you get to the ski slope. So I was like running up and thinking, I thought we weren't going up Flagre, and then I'd gone past this water, everyone knows the waterfall if you do the flagre climb.

37:24 And I was like, I'm pretty much going up flagre here. I was like, when are we going down? Because you don't know when you're going down at this point because you don't have the course, you don't have the map on your watch, you're just following these flags, going, well, where's the turning? And I've never, in a in a recce run or a run, I've never turned off Flager.

37:42 I've only ever gone up because I didn't even know there was a turn off Lagère. But anyway, they took us, yeah, pretty much three quarters of the way up Flagre, and then they took us down a really sketchy path, which apparently was sketchy in the light, let alone in the dark. Um, a really technical descent down onto the Balcon sud, and then we did the climb and then the undulating bit, which went on again, went on for ages because you had no idea how long it was and never done it before and never seen it, is in the dark.

38:11 So I was like, How long is this section? Um, and then you did the descent into Chamony over the bridge, well, down the flagere, like basically the kind of gravel path bit, and then over the bridge and then into Chamony. So um, so again, you were, yeah, you were being given race changes throughout the race, which the information was mixed and what that was.

38:32 But again, mindset-wise, I didn't really panic. I didn't panic at all. I was just like, well, it is what it is. I'll just follow the flags into the finish, like it'll get us there. And you just, and some of it is like you just run what you what you see. And that's actually quite nice. Sometimes when you don't know where you're going, you're just running what you see, and and the effort level, you don't know how long's last yeah, it's just like put it in now and see, see if you can hold it.

38:55 Um, so again, I kind of saw the exciting part of it being like, well, we're gonna do a different part of the course, have no idea when we're gonna turn, but you know, let's have a bit of fun with it and let's see what they do.

39:07 No, that's yeah, it is crazy. And I'm glad the flags are well marked. Because you know, sometimes it's it's hard to follow the flag, and I can't imagine not having a GPX, like not having the confirmation. For like in every race at some point, I've gone, oh wait, I haven't seen a flag in ages. And I've looked at my GPX and been like, oh, it's fine.

39:21 So yeah. Yeah, I actually did that.

39:24 I did that in Martin. The Martin Martini descent was all like it was like through you went down, you went through people's gardens, over a road, down, and then all this woodland pathing. And some of them I did have to go back on myself to then go back again. Because I was like, I can't see a flag. Because I think what happened was they flagged it quite late, because they made the change quite late.

39:45 So maybe they didn't put out as many flags as they would usually put out if the course was set out, you know, during the week. Um, so you did have to be really super aware of like where you were going, what was going wrong. It was just like flag to flag to flag to make sure. But that last bit was flagged really well because they basically just put the red and white tape across the bit of flager that you would keep going up and took you, took you down.

40:09 So um yeah, it made it made the day interesting and it made you learn. I guess it helped you learn a lot about how you handle stressful situations. And if you find that stressful, because I I guess I didn't really find it stressful because I'm like, well, we're still we're just running a course. Like, I don't know, I don't I don't really know what what that would have changed or what I needed to think.

40:29 Because I think I was just so focused on the process and what I needed to do. I was like, it is what it is, and it's quite a while away, so I'll deal with it when it comes.

40:37 Yeah, no, very true. And if anything, it keeps you preoccupied, you know. You've got something else to think about, something else to, you know, get a bit excited for. So you kind of touched upon that Treyon was a challenging climb. You've got two back-to-back, really stacked climbs. Would you say it was kind of a low moment of the race?

40:54 So the Martini climb wasn't. So the Martini climb I knew from the OCC last year because Bertie, who Lewis coaches, who's a good friend of ours, did it, and he was like, it's brutal. So I knew that would go on for a long time. But I felt really good, and that's where I took a lot of the girls. Um, and I got my fueling really good.

41:13 I was drinking, I had so what we did another thing, we made a decision in Champagne Lac to put an ice bandanna on. So I came up the Champagne Lac climb, it was raining, but it I knew the humidity was quite high during the day. So we put an ice bandana on because Lewis had researched that in Martini it was 25 degrees and sunny.

41:32 So we knew that the ice bandana wouldn't add too much weight because you're running downhill. So that was the best decision I could have ever made. So me and Luke had the ice bandanas on and um it kept the body cool all the way down to Martini. Martini was hot, and I think it helped me with that climb then, um, because the body kind of ecosystem was in the right place.

41:51 And but it was mad running out of Champagne Lac in the rain with an ice bandanna on. People must have thought, are you crazy? Um but I think if you were in the race, you felt the the warmth and humidity, even in the rain going up to Champagne. So that was interesting. Um, so it was a real wild mix of weather conditions.

42:10 So then I did the Martini climb and got to top of Marty climb. I was like, oh, this is tough. Like I didn't have a low moment because I was moving well because I was chasing the girls in front of me down. Um, but I remember the guy next to me being like, How long does this go on for? And again, like I'd not done it before, so neither of us knew.

42:26 So I was like, I don't know, but it's a long way. I just kept climbing and climbing. And then got to the Cold of Four Clubs and descended with the two girls that were just in front of me really well. So I was quite proud of that because that's like quite steep switchbacks to get to Treant. And I just, I think when I'm in a race and I'm following people, I just let go.

42:44 I don't over don't think things. So descended really well, had a really good transition of the triant aid station. Um, and I kind of managed to overtake the girls and then keep that gap, um, other than one of the girls, Lena, coming past me at the top. But basically, I was running up, so I filled my bottles up with water, and then I was running up the triant climb, feeling tired but quite strong, because it's really steep that triant climb.

43:09 And then I had, I think I had one gel at the bottom, and then I got halfway up the climb and I was like this on my pack. It's like, where are my other gels? And then I realized that I was meant to pick up a carb mix box, um, carb mix drink and put it in my pack and then fill that a triant from Champaglac.

43:28 And either me or Lou had missed it, and it's no one's fault. It was just one of those things. There's lots going on in the A station. Everything was going amazing. It's just that that one thing. Um, and so I and then my spare gels, annoyingly, and this is a really good learning. I put in my um, well, one of my spare gels I actually got rid of at Champagne Lac, and I should have kept that.

43:51 I had it spare and I was like, why is this spare? I've taken everything. I must have miscalculated. I put it on the table and didn't didn't, I should have just left it in my pack. But there's just So much going on, and then up that climb, the spare gel that's in my pack because it was chucking it down with rain, and my hands were so cold.

44:09 And I and obviously, you're you're hiking up with poles. So I was holding the poles, I was trying to get my jacket off, and I just couldn't get my jacket off. I couldn't like take my jacket over my gloves, and my hands were freezing, and I was like, you know what, sod this. I'm not gonna take my jacket off.

44:25 I'm just gonna not have this gel, I'm just gonna leave it. But I think because that was the hardest part of the climb, I needed the fuel. So that is, I'm also usually very good at that climb. I seem to be quite good at steep climbing. Um, and even last year when I was absolutely dying, I still actually did that a little bit quicker than this year, which was a bit annoying.

44:44 But we didn't have the double climb. Um, but yeah, I think that missed bit of fuel cost me because I got to the top of the climb. It was the first time my legs were like, oh, this is hard. So that was a low moment. And then there's a tran traverse section across the top before you start to descend into Valasine, and my legs were so cold, like I couldn't move them.

45:05 So Lena, who was behind me, she was tracking me. She just overtook, and that's usually like a really strong bit for me because it's a really runnable section. But my leg, the wind, basically the rain was coming in, the wind was coming in. I was feeling low because I hadn't fueled, and then my legs are freezing.

45:22 So I was like, I just need to get down this descent. And I ran down the descent okay, but then I started to feel like a bit delirious, like a bit dizzy, a bit like I couldn't see in one eye, and a tiny bit like unstable. I was like, okay, this isn't good. But I got to Valencine and I said to Lou, like, I feel delirious, like I feel like I'm on the edge of something.

45:43 I nailed two gels at Valencine, got my Coke and got my drinks and felt like a different woman. So it's clearly fueling because honestly, I ran out and I've never felt so strong on that section. I felt so strong. So it was annoying that I was like, oh, that fueling, like that probably because I think what happens is you're putting in quite a hard effort at that point.

46:04 So you're burning through everything. So that fueling is probably vital for that point of time. And it had to be that because as soon as I got into me, I felt really strong. Like I've like last the difference compared to last year. Like my friend Jenny was stood on the way to Grand Montet's, um, Jenny and Bertie banging their pants, and she was like, You look so much better than last year.

46:25 I was like, I feel better, like I was running down the small descent, like like I was like in a normal, you know, steady run. And um, and that's where I'm like, oh, I feel like that top 10 was so in reach, and I was trying so hard. Um, but I just couldn't, it was just that slight couple of minutes. Well, Lena was only a minute, which I think it cost me up the top and then down the descent um into Valacine.

46:50 And then 10th place was like, yeah, five, eight minutes away. And I just think if I maybe have had that energy there, but who knows? Like again, like I said, no race is perfect. Those girls would have also had ups and downs, the same thing. It's just about getting through them. And luckily, I got to the bottom instead of death marching it in.

47:09 I was able to, the fueling made such a difference that I, yeah, that was a real positive. So that's that's good to know.

47:16 No, you did it amazing. And 12th place coming in to Chamani must have been like an incredible moment, crossing that finish line. I loved seeing the photos, you just looked so happy. But was it the hype? Did you enjoy the finish line moment?

47:30 Yeah, I do know what I love, I love UTMB race week. I love the finish line, I love everything about it, and yeah, it was amazing. There were so many people as well this year. I think I don't know why, or like because of the UTMB start being delayed, but it felt like a magical finish line and it was incredible.

47:47 And I think no matter where you come, like it's a win and finish line, even if you haven't won the race, that you feel like you've won the race, like you're going down hugging, you know, high-fiving people. There's kids on the street high-fiving you, and you know, you're going through that finish line, you see your parents at the end.

48:02 It is like a like a one Olympic gold moment, even if you've come 12. But um, I think for me, like I was, I felt really good towards the end. Like my legs were strong. I wasn't like hobbling in. I wasn't like I was moving pretty quick on that last balcon section and the descent into Chamonix. And yeah, I think that was a good, a good feeling and a good way to finish a race as well after that many hours and that much climbing, and for the body to still be working really well.

48:32 And also, like one of my big goals was around nutrition, and I was still drinking my carb mix up until like 10 minutes to go, and I probably could take two more gels if I wanted to. So that was a huge win. So, yeah, I think seeing it all to come together, and even though I was desperate for that 10th place finish, like you can't ever be disappointed with that because you I got to the start line healthy, I got through the race, I finished in 12th.

48:58 Like, you know, we can always everybody always wants more. And sometimes we've got to sit for a bit and be happy with what we've achieved, and then start working out how you can get more.

49:07 No, I love that. And the question that we all once know the answer to what was the McDonald's order when he crossed the finish line?

49:16 So it was McChicken Sandwich chips, and it would have been a milkshake, but they don't do milkshakes, so it would have been a vanilla milkshake. So it ended up, I think I couldn't have any more Coke because I think I just had water at that point. Um but this year, last year I wasn't able to eat much of it, but this year I ate it all because we went, we actually went to the bar, a pub um behind the finish line to wait for Joe to come in.

49:38 So actually I had some time. The key to being able to eat at McDonald's post-Ultra is to give yourself one or two hours, then go and get it. If you go straight away, you probably won't be able to stomach it. Um but yeah, the the kind of the time, the time difference helped me.

49:56 And it was the key learning that we've all been listening to the podcast for. No one cares about the race result or how to do a CCC. Everyone now knows that when they cross the finish line, wait about 90 minutes and that is your prime time. That's really good for the gut. Give the gut time to settle, then get your McDonald's in.

50:14 Yeah.

50:15 That is the key learning that we'll all take away from today. But anyway, you did an incredible race, and I'm so glad that you're happy with it, and you should be so, so proud of yourself. But you might not be able to say this yet because it's very, you know, CCC is only just happened. But do you feel like you've got unbinished business with CCC?

50:33 Could we expect to see you on the start list next year? Are you going to be back at UTMV? It's a very good question.

50:38 So definitely have unfinished business with CCC. And I love I do love that distance. I absolutely love that race and that distance. Um, because for me, during the race, like I didn't clockwatch at all and you know, I could be out for more than 12 hours. Um, there's a lot of talk in in our house at the minute on what what would be next and what would be next year, and we don't have any decisions just yet, like lots of ideas floating around.

51:02 I think it's hard to decide when you're within the week of the race because there's emotions of like, I want to come back, I want to do the CCC distance, but there's a lot of different races next year as well. Um so it's not the best answer because that's probably like I sound like a politician where I'm trying to avoid the answer to the question.

51:21 Um, I have a strong idea of what I want to do, but at the moment I don't want to fully share because I don't know if it's a concrete idea, I think. So um it definitely won't be going down to OCC. I I do actually love the 50k distance, um, but it won't be going down to OCC. And it definitely will be a UTMB race because I absolutely love UTMB.

51:43 Um I love I love the week. I think it's the Olympics of the trail running, and I think it'd be hard not to be there. So it's definitely yeah, you'll see me back at UTMB week next year, definitely. Fingers crossed, I think. I think, yeah.

51:54 Yeah, no, I love that. So we haven't ruled out ETC yet, so Lewis did ETC a couple of years ago and he was traumatized.

52:04 So no, I think I think it, yeah, definitely not ETC. But I I actually enjoyed when I did the VK, but yeah, not V not ETC. I I do love, I like an ex I like an adventure for hours. The reason I stepped up to CCC because I just said to Lewis, oh, I want to be out for more hours. So um yeah.

52:24 Well, thank you, Jeff, for giving us such a great unpack of your race. We're gonna move on to the trail news. So I ask every guest to bring a piece of trail news. It might be a new fastest known time, a new product, a race resort. So, Gemma, what is your trail news?

52:39 So I've got two, which is very typical for me that I can't just have one. So, first of all is just how, well, first of all, how incredible the women's depth and fields and competition and kind of vibe was at UTMB week. But I guess the biggest stat would be I we don't know, I I don't know the UTMB stats yet, but the the viewership for the women's OCC was the highest UTMB had ever had at that point.

53:07 And I think that all of us who, you know, I was watching it before my race on the it was on the Thursday, and watching Naomi from Great Britain as well, incredible. I mean, she's absolutely insane. Like I love watching her descend. Um, her just fighting for that win with Sarah Alonso, and then Lauren Gregory just coming like past her in that final straight, you know.

53:29 Sometimes it's great when people have outright wins by minutes or hours, but actually to see that competition there was just amazing, and the stats clearly show it. So taking women to the forefront of the sport and showing that, you know, it can be extremely entertaining and it can be, you can highlight people's personalities like Naomi and Lauren, even though Naomi had been beat by like a couple, literally a couple of seconds, was still smiling at the finish line hugging.

53:52 And I think, yeah, that's big trail news, and especially good for us in the UK because Naomi is now a big name in the global kind of trail world, which is which is awesome to see.

54:02 No, I completely agree, and I just oh I just love Naomi. And like you said, her descending ability is just something else, like it's actually incredible to watch. It's like I can't even describe it. Like, she literally does just glide down the hills, and it was an incredible race to watch.

54:19 Yeah, so so impressive, definitely. We need to find out how she does that.

54:23 Yeah, I wish I could.

54:26 I don't think our legs would hack that in the 100k, but um, yeah, it'd be great to learn how to do that. Um, and I guess the second second bit of trial news is that next Wednesday evening, I am heading over to Summer Sports in Um Bakewell, I think it is, in the Peak District, to have an evening. Hoker are bringing down some shoes, we're doing an easy run, and then they're gonna be um showing my the film Um The Long Way Back, which Hoker and the Distance Project put together.

54:56 Um, I'll be there for the run and to do a QA at the end as well after the after the film.

55:02 So my piece of trail news, which is I was like really struggling because I was like, I've already discussed UTMP, I want something different. And then I was on a night shift last night, and really randomly at 3am on my break, I went on my feed, and the first thing that came up was a great piece of trail news, and I was like, yes, it's perfect timing.

55:19 But this is kind of linked to you, actually, Gemma. So moving against cancer, which is the charity that you you founded, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I just double checking before I say that, and I've got it wrong. I did so the other co-founder, Lucy Gossage, um, will be running next March a loop of mainland Britain, which is 6,000 miles.

55:39 And when that came out, I was just like, that is just incredible and so exciting. And I love the fact that, like, quite often when people put out that they're gonna be doing like big challenges like that, it's like, oh, I'm doing it next week, kind of thing. I like the fact that they said it's gonna be next March, like it's gonna be so interesting to watch her preparation, kind of how do you plan for these things?

55:59 Well, I'm hoping she's gonna be sharing a bit, some bobs, and then it's gonna be exciting to watch the journey as well. So I just think that's a really cool challenge. And to have done a circumference essentially of Britain is just really, really exciting to see what happens.

56:14 Yeah, no, it's an absolute incredible challenge. And Lucy always puts like move against cancer charity at the heart of what she does, and it's amazing to be doing that challenge and raising money for that cause. And I think that from exchanging text messages with her, a lot of people are gonna be joining her along the way.

56:29 A lot of people from the charity are gonna be doing sections with her. I know Sophie, who is our um charity fundraising manager, who um was a young person supported by our Move Against Cancer program. She's gonna be doing her first half marathon as part of Lucy's challenge. So there'll be some amazing stories come from it as well.

56:46 Um so I think yeah, we definitely all need to get behind her and hopefully we can we can join her along the way as well. So um, yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing more about that too.

56:55 So, so exciting. But thank you so so much, Gemma, for joining. This has been an incredible episode. I've loved it, and I love a roast, uh post roast debrief. So thank you, and hopefully we'll see you back on the podcast soon. Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Beth, and speak to you all soon.