Episode 7: Driving Innovation in Vegetable Breeding – Genetics, Protection & the Future of NGTs

Welcome back to the CPVO podcast Seeds of Tomorrow, the next chapter. Today's focus is on what drives innovation in vegetal breeding and how long term breeding strategies connect with market needs, new technologies and plant variety protection. I'm joined by Nuri Orquia Fernandez, Vice President of the Community Plant Variety Office and Peter Ogg from Bath BASF, New HEMS part of Bath.

Good morning, Peter. Morning. And another, Peter, this time is Peter Visser, Global Head of Crops R&D at BSF Newness. Good morning, Peter. Good morning. Together, we'll look at how breeders prioritize crops and trades, which resilience and sustainability characteristics are becoming essential, and how plant vital rights support R&D and commercial decisions, and how new breeding technologies may shape the vegetable sector in the coming decade. Let's get started.

Thank you, Alessio. Good morning to you both. And my first question goes to PITA Visa. So what drives innovation in the vegetable breeding world today? OK, Well, I, I would say that innovation in in breathing is a lot about bringing together a lot of disciplines, a lot of, of areas of, of a research and making the team work together around, Yeah, a lot of different aspects like cell biology, the genetics, statistics, plant pathology, et cetera.

So the team is very important in innovation. It's not about selfishness and, and small areas. And when that team is complete, one thing is the most important and that's the basis and that's genetic diversity. So we have as plant breeders to work with genetic diversity. That is really the basis and with that we innovate and we create vegetables that can be around better, better taste.

It can be around longer shelf life. It can be indeed about resilience or or stress. Thank you. And maybe a compliment to to that question. So how do you how do growers expectations influence your breathings breathing goals today compared to 10 year 2010 or 20 years ago? Well, I think the, the, the, the strength of, of the growers is, is increasing. And so growers, there are bigger growers that have their, their own, their, their own technological knowledge and they have teams that, that know very well also about how to grow with varieties and, and how to breed varieties. And therefore the expectations are, are growing as well. So the, the stakes are very high. The important is that we

collaborate very well with with the growers themselves as well as all the partners in the chain. Then would you say that I mean in terms of labour efficiency, disease resistance, shelf life, flavour, how, how do you prioritize your traits in the, in the breeding, in the vegetable breeding in the long term?

Yeah, it's, it's very important to to really think about the whole chain and, and all the actors in the chain. The, for us it all starts with what we call the, the strategic marketing. Strategic marketing in, in our, in our business is leading, is leading in the sense that they will capture the knowledge from the market.

They know what our consumer but also our other customers want. And from there we work back to the creation of our products. And with the creation of the products, we do not only mean the genetics and new varieties, but also we have to produce this in a good way. We have to work on the quality of our seeds towards towards the grower.

So all these things have to fit into the final, into the final product. Yeah. Well, my next question goes to to Peter Auger and I would like to ask you how how the plant variety protection, plant readers, plant readers rights influence your investment in research and development and in your commercial strategies?

So plant variety protection rights are actually really quite important to our company. We decide to protect our varieties especially because if you absent a plant variety protection, right, any company would be able to reproduce such a variety. Protection is important to us, especially because indeed, as I mentioned, without protection anybody could reproduce a variety.

Of course, a lot of our varieties are hybrid varieties, so they are not so easy to reproduce. But with the advancement of new genomic techniques, it becomes much easier in the future to reproduce a particular variety or to create something that is very, very similar to the varieties that we breed. That that's actually the reason why we choose to protect our varieties, because there is a lot of time and investment that goes into breeding a new a new variety. And that's actually why we think it's important to protect the varieties that we commercialize.

Thank you. Peter, if I may, as a follow up of the question, Nuria asked you about the the importance of protecting. But of course there is also the the other side of the coin, the the enforcement of your protected varieties. And this enforcement can can be complex. Peter said before you are your reach is worldwide and especially with international production chains. What are the common challenges you encounter in enforcement? So enforcement is actually always really very complex, regardless of whether we speak about starting patent infringement litigation against a competing breeding company. For example, when there would be a patent on a trait and you see infringement of a trade of this

trait by a competing breeding company, that's really very complex. It's very expensive. But also when we look at enforcing plant variety protection rights, it is very difficult to have to actually effectively enforce your rights. For one, because often you do not know when or where infringement actually occurs.

And second of all, often illegal reproduction is actually actually occurs with your customers. It's reproducing vegetative, vegetative reproduction from cuttings, for example. And that is actually really hard to first of all, to discover, but also second of all, to simply, yeah, effectively enforce your plant variety protection rights. That's really quite, quite difficult. It's actually also the reason why we are a member of the Anti Infringement Bureau.

I know there is a separate, there has been a separate podcast on the AIB as well. We are also a member of the AIB because often also illegal, illegal reproduction of plant protected plant varieties is considered a criminal offense. And often the filing a complaint with the respective authorities is by far the most effective way to combat illegal reproduction.

It is very uncommon for us to file a lawsuit in a civil in a civil court because also producing evidence in the right way is very complex. And you also see there's often a lack of expertise in in courts. So it requires really specialized judges to understand the plant variety protection system and to actually also effectively handle a civil, a civil case. I'm an attorney at law myself, but it it really is quite difficult to bring these cases to A to a civil judge. You are definitely right As we're trying to to build knowledge around Europe or whenever we can with law enforcement agencies, with judges, we are having our head of unit of of the legal unit doing just this because it, it is a completely different matter

when you are talking about PVR and we are talking about toys coming from that counterfeit. So there are things that are very specifically and are very narrow to know. And if, if I may add to that, I mean, it's also a matter of litigation is often really quite expensive. And when it's like you often I, I used to have experience also in litigating, but infringement for a big technology company.

And it might make sense that to start a litigation case when it concerns shipments that are worth billions and billions of EUR when it comes to to big tech. But we also need to consider that the infringement is often also really small scale when it comes to agricultural, agricultural disputes. If there's a illegal reproduction by a single grower in a field somewhere in Italy, it really becomes quite cost ineffective to also counteract these these illegal reproduction cases.

And it it really is quite quite complex. Indeed, it looks to me that these deserves a much deeper discussion and maybe even a a study on what is what are the driving forces, what are the main constraints and how can from CPBO do something about that and help the the breeding sector. Yes, we would be very much in favour of that. What we also see is especially when something is also difficult for a judge or for in in a court of law, you also see that often they try to dismiss a case on some procedural errors, for example.

So when a power of attorney might not be signed in the correct way, it becomes really easy to dismiss a case on something that is besides the actual merit of the case. As so, when there is a legal reproduction and when you have a granted plan for IT protection right, it still is very difficult to have your to act actually effectively enforce your rights because a judge might simply be prone to dismiss a case on on some minor technical error.

Yes, indeed. I mean, so that is not exclusive from the PBR world. I guess that's that's part of the legal work. I recognize that as well. Yes, yes. Maybe I can ask you then, what would you value most in the CPVR system, in the community plan variety rights system as a global company? So as a global company, what we really appreciate in the CPVR system is that it provides a protection for the entire territory of the European Union with a single application.

So it provides for a protection with a unitary effect and that is actually really effective for breeding companies like ours to have a single application to protect the the rights for this particular cultivar in the entire European Union. So that is a a big benefit for a company like ours. Yeah. And in comparison with other systems in the world, I mean you, are you satisfied with the CPVR system in Europe? In general, I would say, yes, we are indeed quite, quite satisfied with the with the CPVR system. Of course there are areas which might be, which might we, which we might be able to improve.

We for example, would love countries like Norway or Switzerland to also become a member of the CPVR system simply to have a even bigger scope of protection that would benefit us as a company as well. And of course we regret the fact that Great Britain left the European Union. That is also the CPVR no longer covers Great Britain, but in general we are a big fan of the Community Plant for IT system.

Thank you, Peter OC Let's move on now with more technical issues with our other guests. Peter Visa, may I ask you, what do you think of the new breeding techniques? Are they new breeding techniques and digital tools such engine how breeders work in other sectors? But how do you see these technologies influencing the vegetable sector breeding in the next decade now that it's it's approaching this the the regulation?

Yeah, I think definitely it will, it will reshape the fetchable seeds business. Actually in fetchable seed business, we always think, we believe that there are many very interesting and good examples for new breeding techniques. And then we, we, we, we talk about genome editing mainly because we work in an area where there are so many shapes, colors, tastes are part of that. Of course, resistances and things that are more important traits for, for our growers.

So there are many options, actually more options than we believe in field crops. Now The thing is how, how is it that we, we, yeah, we see so little at this moment because the technology is there out for, for many, many years already, more than a decade. And of course, regulation has a lot of to do with that. But now we see also Europe approaching, coming in the same playing field with with with countries like the US or Japan, Brazil, who have been a little bit more, yeah, a little bit more accessible to using these technologies. The question here is do we can we find those traits with those new breeding techniques that also bring the right value to to the market?

Many of the examples either in academia or the few examples that we have commercially and there are very few, are they really those traits that bring the value? We believe at this moment we are not there because there these are really niches which for all the effort that we have to do also it's a faster technology than than we we have at hand today. It is difficult for sheet companies to really get the return of that investment, all that effort that we have to do also with the new breeding technologies. So it is for sure reshaping the industry, it for sure it will come, but we don't know really when because the big traits are complex and we need to find the right targets, so the right genes to to change to get the

effect that we want to do. Indeed, and that also brings me to the fact that most of the disease resistances are mutual, I mean punctual mutations that are obtained by random mutagenesis. But now we have this faster entities, but then of course faster entities there are very minimal in the sense that we want them as entity 1.

So maybe the, the changes that we need or the the kind of traits that we need are not so easy to obtain with NGT 1. You know, we cannot bring new genes, we cannot bring like a breakthrough traits in the vegetable sector. So maybe as you say, it's not as as obvious, you know, to get this, this kind of technologies in the vegetable sector in the near future. So.

Perhaps a point of of information for our listeners? What is entity 1? Well, it's a new genomic technique that it's relates only to small changes within the breathing the the of the, the what is called the gene pool of the breeder. So species with which the variety can cross naturally. So it cannot allow, for example, crosses with genes from bacteria or from genes from, you know, a fungus. So it can only obtain a, a new, let's say a small sequence no longer than 20 best pairs from another species with which the variety would naturally cross.

So something that could happen in, in nature without the intervention of the human being as well. So it could not be distinguished by any methodology by another, let's say, procedure occurring naturally in, you know, in through conventional crossing. This, this is again, I mean, since this kind of modifications are so small and of course they are like a thesaurus, like Agps with AC source or a scissors with Agps. That is allow us to go much more in detail, much more accurate to the place we want to go.

But of course, we need the information of the gene in first place so that we know. Otherwise we don't know, we don't know the map, you know, we don't know where to go. But if you have the, the information, of course, it's much faster. But as you say, you know, for complex traits, for things that we really want to change the the scenario, it's not as obvious as many people may think in first instance. Yeah, indeed it, it requires a lot of knowledge and, and of course they are also other fields, other technologies are helping us to acquire really the knowledge to be that specific on those points of recognition or these points, the specific mutations that we want to make in the amino acids. We have now, of course the help

of artificial intelligence. That's of course a big word. It's, it's, it's a buzzword. But really the strength of that is that let's say the technology works with patterns. It can understand a lot of knowledge that we have generated over all the time and brings it together and come to certain predictions. So where it was before much more a random process, we now more and more are able to look for the specific points. We have the expected effect.

So again, these technologies, they will accelerate also this new, the use of these new technologies for yeah, trades that we, we say trades that are complex, trades that are compound like the resilience trades, like trades, yeah, that have to do with, with the growth of the plants under let's say difficult climate conditions. These are many genes that that need basically to act together. And we learn all the time more and more about how we can intervene in in genes to make the plant more robust. No, indeed, as a scientist by education myself, I I can only wait an excitement you to see complex traits that relate more than one gene can have a positive result because this has been something expected for many

years, particularly for abiotic stresses. You know, I mean a kind of traits that would help the the variety resistant, the the salinity, the cold frost, you know, this, this as you say, the the yields. So these are complex. I mean, they are not disease resistance related to one simple gene that is placed in the particular spot that once you eliminate it or do just, you know, eliminate its function by just a small mutation and the expression is no longer there and then you have the final result. It's not as simple as that.

They have many genes involved, many regulatory regions involved. And to have them working in the sense that you need is extremely complex. So, yeah, I think we will have to wait a little bit, but we are really, really excited to see how this is happening. Indeed, yeah. Also. Yeah. If I may have, what is also really important in this context is whilst you may know a lot about the genome of a particular plant, it is also for a business like ours still very important to obtain access, actual access to physical genetic resources. So there's a lot of talk about DSI and the value of DSI in, in the context of various treaties of course. But for companies like ours, it is really important to, to maintain also access to genetic

resources. And unfortunately we see that with a lot of the legislation these days, it becomes increasingly more difficult to actually access genetic resources or pathogen isolates, for example, that we still need for breeding. As a company, you remain reliant on genetic diversity to be able to breed your your new varieties. And I think it's, it's really important that we do not lose sight of, yeah, the importance of access to genetic resources. Well, that brings me to an excellent area of discussion, which is access to to material.

As you know, in the PVR system, we have the Breeders exemption that allows the access to the material of the competitor even if it is protected to further breed your own varieties. But then we have a much more complex scenario where we have patents in place for small trades where we have also the ABS, the access and benefit sharing mechanisms promoted by the protocol international treaty.

So we have to play in this very complex ground. So how, how do you navigate in terms of access? I mean you already mentioned the the difficulties with the ABS, with the access for the treaties. But then what about patents? Is it, is it this patenting arising a problem with you? How do you negotiate with your competitors access to material which might be have a patent in it? So access to patented genetic resources are for us in that sense not really an issue of actually patents are a great source of information, but because the protection, a patent provided by a patent is actually granted in exchange for the detailed publication of how the trait actually works. So patents are a great source of

information for us as a company to see also what competitor companies are working on, but also to, to learn about new pathways, for example, that influence one of the complex traits that we that we just discussed. So patents actually provide a wealth of information and they allow us to also access certain patent deposits, so seeds that are deposited with the respective trade.

And they can also provide a great source of genetic diversity for us to access and to obtain new traits to incorporate them into new varieties. Of course, when you commercialize such a variety that has a patented trade, you will need a license. But we as a company have been one of the founding members of the international licensing platform and we are a avid supporter of obtaining licenses to to patented traits.

And also, yeah, we are also able to grant licenses to any breeder that might be interested in some of the traits that we incorporate into our varieties. So in that sense, patents are actually a great source of, of information. And when they come with a patented seat deposit, that seat deposit is also available for further breeding purposes.

Yes, indeed. And we have witnessed as well that how it works in practice, particularly with the heavy site tolerant varieties that they have patented gene. But then many other providers of material have agreements with the patent provider and you have many, many, many, many varieties in the common catalog, more than 700, which are already working.

But then the the, I guess the issue then is how to know when there is a trait that is patented and then you have to be careful on how to incorporate it in your breathing program. So the transparency is a key issue there. So how would you think this this issue could be solved? That is a a good question. Of course there is the Pinto database from Euro seeds, but it has a European scope.

So that is the information there is limited to the territory of Europe and it's hard for especially and that it's yeah, what I do recognize it is hard for smaller companies to keep track of the patent landscape. I, I wish I would have the solution or the answer. Unfortunately we do not. We are blessed with the fact that we have a, a patent department and that we can keep track of patents which are filed by competitors. So we have like a, a monitoring or a screening process which makes it somewhat better accessible to us, I would say. But I do understand that this is a concern for some, for some companies.

But at the same time, as we discussed, when it comes to enforcement, it's also not as if you're immediately approached when, yeah, when you would infringe a patent or when you breed a variety that has a patented trait that you're immediately subject to, to very expensive litigation. I have never encountered any breeding company that was unwilling to grant a license. So in that sense, I, I, I also don't think we should exacerbate or exaggerate the the problem.

Yes, I I tend to agree with you. So then. Yes, Peter, we, we spoke in the last minutes about different speeds at which the, the sector is proceeding with the, the, the, the resources, the, the breakthroughs that are being happening now given the, the PVR system. What by the way, the PVR system is currently under public consultation. So if you are such a big fan of the system, I invite you and all people you know to reply to the, to the open consultation that the European Commission has launched a week ago and it's open till the 20th of April.

But back to my questions, legal certainty, it's it's a given today, but can influence commercial decisions especially in sectors where innovation cycles are long and air in the investments are substantial. How this is impacting your thinking so? The breeding new varieties, despite the advance advances in breeding technologies, actually still requires a lot of development time and it's it's very expensive and highly competitive.

But absent any plant variety protection rights, it is much less likely that we would still be investing a lot of money into developing new varieties, especially if a competitor would be able to reproduce or recreate such a variety without any any compensation to the breeder of the original variety.

So that would simply be much less of an incentive to to innovate. OK. So maybe just trying to conclude, where do you see opportunities for deeper cooperation between breeders like bass, new names of your size and institutions such as US CPVO, for example, I, I remember recently we had a conversation with some breeders from Poland and they were telling us that they would love to see like an arbitration center here in CPBO to help them with enforcement issues across the borders, for example. I mean ideas like these that for them, you know, the SMEs might have an influence because they are, they don't have the resources maybe to, to just get final agreement with a big company or with maybe another

smaller SME. And maybe they see a role. I mean, do you see like a role for cooperation with you? I mean this is an idea, but I mean if if there are any other ideas I mean most welcome. Thank you. That is indeed that would actually be a a great idea. It's not something that I that I've given much thought in the in the past, but it it definitely would be a system that we would be open to words. OK, so if policy makers and growers are listening today, what is the message you would like to convey about the importance of supporting innovation in the vegetable sector?

Pita visa. Well, it, it is the most important thing is that we find a way for a uniform, a harmonised regulation across the globe because we are working and most of the companies see the world as their their playing field and the market. It's very important that we open up and we have a regulation there which allows us to to use our genetics, our varieties, our products across the globe.

If we are confronted with with situations where we where we cannot go beyond for example, Europe or beyond another region, it becomes already more difficult for us to make a good value proposition for, for our products. That means we are basically Hanford to use all the technology that is in our hands to make better products.

Thank you so much. I think we are close. You know, we don't have much time left and we, I think we even know we're past the time. The time with the Peter it's near to hand. I would like to thank you for your time, for your thoughts, and for what you share today with us. Yeah. Thank you. It was really interesting from our side to listen to you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having us. If you enjoyed this episode, follow Seeds of Tomorrow, the next chapter. Join us next time where innovation meets plan reading and ideas grow into impact. I'm Alessio de Orientis signing out.

Episode 7: Driving Innovation in Vegetable Breeding – Genetics, Protection & the Future of NGTs

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