Episode 8: Roses with Rights – The Business and Breeding Behind the Bloom

Welcome back to the CVO Podcast. In this episode we would like to take you into the world of roses, but not from the usual angle of fragrance color, of symbolism. We focus on what comes before the bloom, the breeding choices, the long years of selection and testing, and the business investment required to bring a new variety to the market.

In this episode, we explored this intersection with Mr. Alameyang. Mr. Alameyang, welcome. Thank you very much. I'm honored. And in studio with me, Jean Maison, head of the Plant Variety Expertise Unit here at CPVO. Welcome, Jean. Thank you very much, Alicio. Before the diving deep into what Maison Mayon does, can I ask you why Maison Mayon and a bit of your history?

1850 a gardener, a great grandfather was a gardener in Lyon, in the park, the let that door and on it's evening rest he was just making crosses of the roses. He became a breeder and his daughter met my great grandfather Debray. It's all coming in the male family coming by the ladies and probably the male were just good males and he was a he was also a tire.

He was making suits and DBK fell in love with the lady, but fell in love with roses as well and became an important breeder and editor of varieties created by his father-in-law. And he is by the name of Francis Debray. Probably many of the varieties that he so-called created were from his father-in-law, at least in the beginning.

And then again, the young daughter of Francis Debray met one of the trainees that was with Francis Debray at that time, Antoine Mayo, My grandfather and Antoine fell in love with the long young lady and started a breeding roses with his father-in-law and with his future wife and so on. That is the way the whole thing was done.

Unfortunately, that young lady Claudia passed away when she was 46, Claudia Debray. And at that time she was called Claudia Mayo because she was married. And there's Stan Francis, my father, Francis Mayo, who went to America for the first time when he was 23, in 1935. There he discovered the New World.

And they discovered that five years earlier they had AUS plant patent, and that some of his roses were already patented in the States, and because of his mentor at that time, Robert Pyle, who was president of Star Roses in Pennsylvania. And that kept on till the war broke and that the breaking of the war, no relation were available for the French towards for the occupied France towards the American friends.

And that's just prior to it. He sent material of the variety that became the peace rose in the first conference of the future United Nations in San Francisco. And unfortunately, Francis passed away when he was 46, the same age as my grandmother, as his mother, and from the same cancer. And so when he passed away, I had no possibility but to follow what he told told me.

You will be helped by many people around you, but we need to have a male at the head of the House of bail. And at that time they had many people working with them, for them and some of them became really important rose breeders. Michel Kilov, who was coming from Lithuania, which at that time was Russia, and as a blonde, as a Greece blonde, a White Russian. He was there prior to the Second World War. And of course, Joe Orar, who is the father and grandfather of the Orar at the moment.

So many came from that little school of rose breeding nearby Leon in the early 40s till the middle of 50s. This is the story very brief. I started personally with my mother and grandfather to be officially head of the mail, the House of Mail. Thank. You, thank you very much and I, I retain it is noticeable how how much the the genes of your family are encoding in breeding.

They are also encoding, innovating and protecting since you, you mentioned already more than 15 years ago plant patterns in the US and I, I think in the at least in this world you were certain your trend setter in terms of protecting your innovations in the in the plant sector. So I think we will develop a bit on all these various areas, but just perhaps to start with the core activities, the breeding activity, as you say people are behind.

Well, you may have of course you have no company with an international reputation and and several companies, but they are people behind and breeding. And perhaps it would be good to start with summarizing all the processes, how to breed a new variety. What do we start with, with this objective? What in mind there is the talent of the breeder? Well, could you please perhaps elaborate a bit on on how all things are done still by humans today at our computer times? Yeah, OK.

The, the, the number one take is as broad as possible knowledge of the species you want to work with. Still today we are only 100% breeding roses. And the second point is the gene pool, enormous gene pool that we have on our premises in La Cana de Morvar. And there we have of course, wild species.

We have species that were bred from the wild roses. We have purely male varieties which were never introduced as janitors or potential janitors and we have a number of varieties from the competition. Don't forget that is an important thing that there is a free access to all breeding material even if it's protected variety we can breed from.

We are not world where there is impeachment in using the material that is covered by plum breeders, right wherever in the world and we can breed from. So is the other part as well for our colleagues, competitors, we share the same facilities and we have a number of varieties that are only from our competition which we use as breeding material and and other male or female. And of course we have great know how of the origin of all these materials as much as we can except maybe for the material we have from foreign varieties which are on the on the market which were never protected or maybe were protected, but with limitation of knowing where really genetically speaking they came from.

Of course, we used still using a lot of science, such as production of pollen, which is not a secret. It's frozen pollen for part of it. Then we have many studies made on how to germinate the seeds. By the way, it's the only time you will hear me speak about the seed. We are a large seed company, but we do not produce seeds for commercial purposes.

We produce seeds to have new generations of breeding material and select from the population which every year is created. Thank. You thank you very much. Alaso well, we we fully understand that a very broad diversity is certainly the basis of your breeding activities. Can you perhaps elaborate on the characteristics you are looking for? For what purpose are you breeding? Of course a rose should should be nice. Some say it's the most beautiful flower existing and and I trust that this is also your opinion, but OK. What do you Why did you seek to improve in your breeding activities?

Well, when? When we start a new program of breeding which is every year, it's only once a year we do that. The result of it could not be prior to 6-7 years and commercial kind of be more going to be earlier than 10 years in general. So very frequently I am comparing things that how will be the airplanes in 10 years time and it's a good example because we still fly commonly on more than 50 years old manufactured airplane which were conceived 15 or 20 years before.

So in fact, what we are flying now on airplane were conceived in the very early 50s. And yes, on roses, it's not the same, would save people, but it is the very same. Because if you don't know the Rose, Queen Elizabeth, that was a rose introduced in 1953 for Queen and Mr. Lincoln was also a rose introduced in the very early 50s and they are still known and appreciated. So we have to foresee what could remain after so many years that could be important to the Rose, but also to the public and in the intermediate to the trade or to the Rose growers, commercial rose growers to buy the bushes, the plants to sell to the public.

So sometime some of our team say we heard they are looking for white. Yeah. What sort of white pure for God And yeah, with a lot of fragrance. What sort of fragrance? And I'm just opening a few of our doors or windows to see not only how complicated it is, because it is not complicated to make a cross. Everybody can do that, that's no problem. But the cross is one thing.

Then you got the selection process which will be within the population, see what is there for one year, for two year, for three-year. And see how the so-called coach will look at young kids, very young at a school level and say my God, this one as ability for football. And yes, we are more selecting than breeding.

People don't accept this, but it is true. And because they want to upgrade the breeding, but the breeding incorporates having the gene pool, having the imagination to make a cross, make the cross be successful in having a number of seeds, so-called the population, and then to select within the population or so-called population varieties that will be tested in different conditions.

Go back to aviation one minute. All the planes have their flying test with spatial pilots. They know how to handle an aircraft, whatever it is, wherever it is. They never put the, they don't put the the wheels in in in case they need to land quickly. But that's part of the job. It's the true experiment of new varieties.

And yes, we do have them in the very north in the hemisphere, very N where maybe summertime appears middle of June and the May and finish about 15th of August. And then it's getting cold, they start to be dormant. They have very severe frost, long frost. And the varieties must be addicted to these true climates.

But also we, we, we are in the in California, we are in the southern part of Spain or across the Mediterranean right there where the word frost is not known. So, but we have other things. We got the five, six month dry weather, very dry. And when I say dry, I mean no rain at all and and that has to be tested for this reason.

And I'm just speaking about the north of the North European and American continent. Very recently, I was talking with one of a friend who's a breeder in Minnesota and I said, David, but by the way, he has varieties through us at your at the office of CVV. And I said, David, I just phoning you because you are -20 Celsius.

And he said yes, but tomorrow it will be -40 And I said, David, do you have a difference in between -20 and -40? He said, at -20 I go out at -40 I stay home. And this is for many weeks in a year time. But then he said for testing for frost resistance, we are on the right track. We will have it this time without any problem. So this is part of our life and the life of a breeder as as you put the breeder as the head of the dynasty of the words. But it's breeding, it's growing the new seeds, selecting and testing.

This is the whole chain of it. It's not only one part of it. Thank you, Indeed, Thank you very much, Alan. We we understand that indeed breeding is in a way anticipating the future takes so long that you need to indeed forecast what will the consumer wants, what will be the taste in 10, in 15 years time. We understand also this selection process. You need to select and it also means that you need to discard and you need to discard.

It depends on what you're looking for. Your last explanation, I can assume that those varieties that don't stand this cold in Minnesota, then at least you will not develop them here because you know that they will not always withstand the weather. About discarding, I heard perhaps as an amateur, this famous story, I think it was Pierre de Rosa, which was kind of rescued at some point in this process of discarding.

Perhaps you can tell us a few words about about this one. Yeah, just of the prior question, there is a strong parallel to be made in between roses or ornamentals which could incorporate fruits. It's a factor. That is a beauty. Beauty is not a factor for wheat, barley or these plants, on top of everything else like frost resistance. We need to have beauty and beauty. You cannot score it.

You cannot say that's beautiful, that is not beautiful. What is the limit in between being beautiful, being not beautiful? I don't know the limit. I don't know the limit, but this is very important. And at that time of Pierre de Monsau, we we, we had a program in our climbers, breeding climbers because it's bred mother and father variety were crossed together and we had a number of seedlings. One of them became Pierre de Monsau. And at that time in the people's mind concept of climbing roses, they had to climb immediately.

And one day we had this one which had the very spatial old style rose flower, which we were doing nothing with it. And one of our German licensee came and said, let me try it. I I love the flower. You say it's a climber, but it doesn't climb. It will climb in the course of the year. So I don't understand what you're meaning. He was not a rose expert, but he was probably a marketing expert and by being a marketing expert came to at that time the right place to pick up a rose, which by chance became Pierre de Rozar, which in bracket is a Hall of Fame from the World Federation of Rose Societies throughout the world. 49 nations with one vote per member state, which the smallest is Principality of Monaco, one vote

and the largest being China with one vote. And it had the vote from New Zealand, from Argentina, from Japan, from the United States. It had the votes from many countries out of the 49 for some reasons, some reasons. You want me to tell you the reasons? Maybe you can put that in another section of my podcast, but still, now that I have the reason, or at least my reason in my head, number one, it cannot be a Hall of Fame if it is only 5 to 10 years in the trade in commerce.

It's impossible because it doesn't penetrate it at the speed it should. The countries that are member of this federation and the public does not know it before a long time. So the varieties that are Hall of Fame, which is usually one every three years voted in has to be present on as many territories as possible out of the 49 of course, and needs to be known by the public of this nation. And then it's voted in gradually by turns, each of the societies, the Rose society is having to need to, to put three names. And then they worked out to be at the end with only one name for the majority and voted in.

So it's a long process. So, and I'm, I'm very sorry, but we had the first one on that respect and it was the peace rose. The Peace Rose was the first one voted in when they introduced the system voted in in England at the Word Federation Rose Society Convention, probably in 1976. That was the first one.

That one was known everywhere under the name of Peace, under the name of Gloria Day for German speaking language and the name of Julia for the Italian and the name of Madame Antoine Mayo for the French speaking. That was the first one. We now have our number 5, which was granted to us in Lyon 2015 World Convention. And it was a rose that had a denomination called Maimic. And Maimic is the trademark cocktail. And the very, very last one, which were not the breeder officially, but we are the introducer of it is a knockout which was granted in a cock naked in 2017 at the last convention at that time and from our friend Will Radler in the United States.

And that's all. There is only one breeder, but that's two. And believe me, there are big breeders in the world and they are very knowledgeable, known. But maybe the way they introduce their varieties is too much on their own territory, not so much outside their territory. Because they are maybe not, not willing to have plant protection on these territories, whatever. But it, it, it is so, So, you know, big, big companies which I will not name, but very big names which do make application that the OCVV from United States or Germany or, and they, they, they do not have the opening we do have. So we are never the number one in any country. We are sometime #2 sometime we might be #3 and that's all. But we, we are, we are happy

with the system and the system is working for us and to us. So. But it is true also that I could come back to the experiments we make in some countries at the very early stage under a code name, before we decide with our friends to of the House of Mail to introduce a new variety and then start the clock for OCVV or whatever protection throughout the world. And we are a clock organization, preserving all our rights wherever we have to do so.

We are probably very few to understand how is the American US plant pattern working? Because the clock is not four years, it's not six years, it's 12 months and 12 months with the system. I've no more card now. It's all on computer. The bloody computer knows things that I don't know. And we have to adapt ourselves very, very quickly to all this. And as a breeder company, as a breeder, the House of Mayor is breeding company and licensing.

We have a strong department always in House of Blood breeding protection. And of course, the Corolla is trademarks because people don't don't understand why we have trademarks. I can give you a secret, Switzerland had no protection, had no protection. In the old days, the only protection we could have was through the trademark. So it was natural for us to try to have all sorts of protection, protecting our inventions.

And we use the word invention because we are of the origin of the US plant pattern and we are an inventor for the US. Yeah, we are an inventor to some extent. We invent because we use mummy and daddy from other sources and then we have invention made because of our cross, because of the selection and the testing. And the testing, believe me, is part very important part in time and diversity.

We, we were the first to foresee 50 years ago that some days rose propagation will not be any longer by budding or grafting. So because all our seedlings are on their own roots, there's no, the mother plant is on its own route. We, we said why don't we do all the tests also in parallel with budded grafted plants, in parallel with own root plant 1 to 1 and see what it is the best and in what condition 1 is better, the other one is better. And we started in 19, we we started 50 years ago and in the 2017 in OJ at the Agro campus, we produced huge poster of these 45 years of experiment and making the poster we find out. But many of our roses that are well adapted to any condition worldwide could be grown without

any problem on route. This is innovation. We didn't protected this, but it was innovation. It was the fact that one day some of these bloody people on the air aircraft stopped producing small Elise, I can't remember the name now. The propellers, Yeah, propeller planes and went to jet. Yeah, OK, that's innovation.

That was a great innovation and it is innovation. We don't want to ask for credit for it. We did it and it worked and this is part of our work. And we still have plants that are 2530 thirty. My oldest plants on its own route are 38 years old in the city of Geneva, Switzerland. Why Switzerland? Why for Geneva, there is no horticultural connection in, in, in this part of the world. It's very private, but it's full of it in the streets and people could see it.

They don't understand why they are in bloom in in August, but we know why and that's no problem. There is 111 point. That is very important. And I'm sorry for the ecologist. We need water, yes. If we don't have water, we have no bloom. Bloom is a water process and it is extremely important. So it's to know Physiology, vigital, vigital Physiology.

And this is part of Our Daily Bread and butter in our little the House of mail. This is very, very important. So it's observation, not only reading papers, it's it's a lot, a lot of information, a lot of travelling, a lot of pictures, a lot of exchange. What? What way or another? Thank you, Allen.

Well, we understand fully breeding is, is indeed about knowledge of the species, knowledge of the plant. It is about vision, innovation, what will be innovative for the future and your example of growing varieties on their own routes instead of grafting, which was the standard in the past. Well, that was of course easing the propagation process and well, that's the reason why it became certainly successful. Breeding is about organization, a worldwide activity that you described very well.

You don't only breed for a small territory. You won't indeed the world profit from your innovations. You need need to be well organized and test your new varieties worldwide and also protect your innovation, which of course fuels your, your activity. Well, I in, in, in this respect, we, you may know that we are in the course of reviewing our regulation on plant variety rights in the, in the EU. What's what should be improved?

We have, for example, an idea that perhaps we could develop a logo that you could use in relation to the denomination to your varieties to indicate, OK, that variety is protected at the Community Plan Variety Office. Would such a logo be useful? Should we improve perhaps this provisional protection, which is the time between the application of of your your new variety and the time when we take the decision to run the right?

What do you have ideas on how to to improve our processes and the legal framework? That's a broad question which evolves not only roses but many other ornamentals and as the system worked since the UPOF this making a difference in between different type of plants such as the seed plants, food plants and vegetatively reproduced plants.

And this is extremely complex question because the, you know, I've gone to give you the last example I discovered that Merco sewer has put a phrase Brussel as we usually say, where we are not happy, we say Brussel, we don't say European Union, we say Brussel. But in the Merco sewer that the countries that our members should respect the convention of 1978, my God, this is just creating an extremely, extremely strong reaction from all of us. So Brussels ignored 1991 because in the convention of 1978 and 7 and 91, there is a big gap that has been improved. And if if we only speak about this, we we can see that what the left hand does is ignored by the right hand, that the right hand.

And this is extremely negative for the image of our organization, United Europe. And with the plant protection, why should the Mercosur be done on the shoulders of the Breeders in some parts or just the small part saying the Treaty of 1978? And sometime we we have to be more active, proactive, active, if not only and necessarily be too late active.

But still there is a strong point that we cannot accept and we have no tractors. We are not those that are marching in the streets. We are not sufficiently numerous, but we feel that we are going to pay maybe on many things. So going back to your question, yes, is the product directly harvested from the protected variety controllable or not, that's a big question.

You know there is a big country still very uncertainly in plant protection today. It is India and India to to have the member possible member of U path India signed but and they are fixed about 1978 Treaty of U PATH. We cannot bear that because it is a very very difficult to gear in the future. What is a 19719 78 treaty against the 1991 treaty which we still have some progress to be made for. Maybe a Treaty of 2030, which is part of my dream. This year I'll be 86 so it better hurry up. If not, I won't see it and I want to see it. But the the the product of the crop that the that the harvested product should be one way or another protected. Also we have two laws in in, in the in countries where the product directly transformed

from the protected variety should be giving you possibility to work as Japan and France. So these are if we want to progress in in our research essential oil fragrance paste whatsoever should be taken care of it one way or another. I understand very well it does open a possibility rather important from those huge companies which are different from family owned companies where maybe the basic is coming from, from the small companies and then acquired one way or another to go through the big companies.

But if we want to preserve the small inventor, and I'm back in inventor word or breeder, we should give him the possibility to have very well his invention covered with. In 1948, a man called Francis Mayo had made a cross and that cross was extremely important for producing hips, rose hips, which we call in French Kratku. And this because of our vicinity to grass was analysed to have an extremely high content of some uh, for pharmacy for, for, uh, to, to develop new products in the pharmacy, not in the beauty, but for pharmacies for essential human preservation of things. But he could not get protection.

So Francis on a desperate day decided not to introduce this variety because at that time he could have it protected in by patent in France, in Italy, in Germany, but not in Turkey, not in India, not in China. So you have to imagine a breeder that has to destroy his invention because his invention will not be rewarded one way or another.

And this is the the actual situation we have on some of our varieties that could be used for essential oil industry there. Is a small frame piece I remember seeing at your quarters, right at the entrance of the office. Of course it features illustration of roses and it carries a simple but powerful message.

No research without protection. No protection without control. No control without your experience. Now I know I'm quoting some something that you see every day at work, but while you were just speaking about your research and about how you protect the varieties you develop, that quote kept coming back to me. Because breeding and your rules takes years. It's a long term commitment.

You invest time, expertise, resources and a great deal of patience, and yet you cannot see into the future. You cannot be entirely certain that by the time your variety is finally ready for the market, the illegal framework will allow you to protect it in the way you had anticipated. So what comes first? Is it the certainty of the law?

The assurance that intellectual property protection will be available and enforceable that gives you the confidence to begin? Or does innovation come first? You move forward despite uncertainty, accepting the risk that the legal environment might evolve, shift, or even limit the protection of your work. I was reflecting on this, especially when you mentioned essential laws.

In other words, how do you balance vision and risk? How do you decide when to move ahead, knowing that protection may not always be guaranteed? If a breeder is doing a job and investing in a job knowing his result before is is doing that, that is maybe a liar because there is a part of uncertainty.

So in our company, we do not have an analysing, an analyzing accountant to say how much did this rose cost because it's in a package. And I gave you the example of Pierre de Mercer. If there has not been one guy from Germany saying, oh, because of the flower, you say it's a climber, I don't know. But but the flower is such a OK, we go with it. And it is how sometime we need cooperation with other people. You know, going back to aviation, nobody believed in the Airbus 380.

Only the one company did. It's Emirate. They still fly it. And they are looking for a second generation of this huge airplane. And because it fell into the European world, let's put it this way, and not into the American world. It, it had no success in America and no American company bought it. Maybe they and, and, and I'm sorry that even the French company disregarded it.

That's their problem. Now Emirate is, is doing a good job with it. And many people love to fly this aircraft and this is part of the life. It's part of life. And the people that developed this probably were sure to have some success at some point. Of course, many other things came in in, in in the development of it. Don't forget that at that time, aviation had a big the greens were against aviation, the Ecolo where and I can remember this time that the COVID came and killed the part of the pro programs.

And and this is just facts of life that that that's that's true. But coming back to a point where Jean said that we forecasted to have en route roses and not necessarily grafted roses. At the same time we were studying under stock to have proper under stock which of course would have to be protected.

Some of them were protected and we had invented with three other company in a European program. You will be here gradually of European program which was Brussel on a grafting machine. We we had the pleasure to see the robot that is self robot in the field that were grafting. But people don't remember this, they don't know. And by, you know, invention again, the word invention, open mind, what can we do with it?

OK, and it, it, it worked. It was never commercialized because the partners we had with a lift group who make it workable financially should have produced 50 copies of it. 50. It's a huge machine, doesn't go in that room. It's totally autonomous. It has vision, vision. It could recognize thorns from budding eyes.

So it's very precise. But you know that today if you have to have an operation, your surgeon might be in Bangalore in India. And because of the vision system that was developed at that time in the late 80s, beginning 90s in Grenoble, Grenoble, he might use this system. So it's it, we are far from the roles, but around the roles, around production, propagation, shipping, the many, many other things. But you need to have knowledge of plant Physiology, of how it works and and what are the limit today, the limit of tomorrow. OK, we don't know yet, but we will find out. Yeah.

Well, that, that's very pertinent question, but you have to yes, well, to already forecast a bit today what you will do for, for tomorrow. And then tomorrow you will, will, you will have of course other things for, for the future. And so talking about tomorrow, well, what what will be of course, Rose should always be beautiful. It should probably be easy to grow. It should with town, all kind of climates. Well, there is a hot topic at the moment, which is about spraying pesticides are not very popular. They are not environmental friendly, they are costly, they are no good also for human health. Do you hold which weight will this kind of characteristics have in future breeding program?

Will you definitely breed for less input to the Rose cultivation for better disease resistance? At the time we produced this special result in 19 in 2017, which we presented in Anjay at the same time, from that particular testing, it was 0 entrant whatsoever, whatsoever. And it was also to use different ways of pruning.

And it was recommended mechanical pruning because at that time we were dreaming of going on our highways in Europe at least and gas station whatsoever to have not only green but also color. And you know the, the only plant that produces color and repeats in the same year color is roses. Sorry, I've never seen a forces here give which is a fabulous plant and many other that do not repeat which meet on the same plant you get another generation of blooms.

To have this you need irrigation. Without irrigation, forget about it. So it it it it. It would be a stupid thing to say. We don't have dreams in our head. But on this presentation we made in 2017, we had absolutely no sprays whatsoever on this block. And for those that came to visit us, they could see it.

And unfortunately we don't keep the plants sufficiently long time, but we keep them about 20 years but and 20 years some say, yeah, but that will not be any more in demand. Who cares about the demand? We have a solution for a problem which we knew we understood it would be become a major problem.

A little bit of history in the early 50s. We have we have test fields in Tionville. Jovial is the head of was the head of our synergic industry. And you couldn't breathe there, but you couldn't breathe as a human being. But boy, the plants were happy because they were sprayed permanently. They had no fungus because they were controlled by all these things. And that's why when I say we need to test in vivo against in vitro, in vivo plants and, and just, you know, growing roses and breeding roses is easy.

You do it in 100 lessons, one every year because you have only one spring, 1 summer, one fall and one weather. And then it repeats it. It does go which if if you grow on on the on geranium pelargonium, you're happy that they die by frost. And Needless to say about the chrysanthemum that was one of the major plant in France at least for the 1st of November, there were 28 million pots containers in full bloom sold at the at the gate of cemeteries.

And the big question where was would they be in bloom for that date? Would they be dead the next day in the cemetery because of frost? OK in on the French Riviera and Marseille whatsoever they never it never freeze in bracket but in many many other regions such as the lore Rome where where it can be cold specifically the 2nd of November it it was one of the criteria can they survive frost.

At that time there was no way people were thinking of keeping things from one year to another unless it was a shrub or a tree, but many of the plants were. Re redone, our rose is you don't need to do that and you can keep them, I wouldn't say forever, but almost. And then the plant producer, those that produce graft plants are unhappy that we have varieties that can stand a very low temperature or very long drought. OK, nobody is happy now that airline tickets are very cheap. They don't understand why on Ryanair you don't have a hotel if the plane is cancelled, you don't have food, you don't have the What do we want in the world? We do.

We want everything gratis free. OK, go to another country. Yeah, absolutely. So. Well, thank you for explaining indeed that sustainability has always been one of your objectives and you illustrated quite nicely with this already 1010 years old plot. With very little input, less water and the varieties could thrive and grow and thrive again the year after, which is of course a particularity of rose that is a perennials and well, you don't need to plant them again every year they come back again and you, you say even with the same color.

Which is also John, one thing which is very important on the own root plant. Yes, the top can disappear, but the roots are there and the roots is not an under stock. It's the variety and it can regrow from it easily. So we we we got I don't, I don't mean Allah as God, an answer to every question. That's not true, but it's analysing why do we have done this?

It's because it's simplicity, it's easiness. It's but people need to understand we got a big problem is to communicate. People don't read. They don't look at this. They they want something quickly. OK, that's their problem. It's not my my way to do things. Yeah, That, that, that. Effects. I think our evolution, we always want to have our life easier. We want to make things simpler, less complex. Well, and I think this is probably called development. We are developing because, well, we make things better for ourselves and hopefully also better in a sustainable way, in such a way that it is also still good for the planet. And well, I think you illustrated quite nicely, less entrance is definitely good for

everybody. It's easier for us, it's better for the planet, it's better for everybody. So in that way I think it is certainly this is what is I believe called sustainability certainly, certainly other objective which remains very pertinent in all breeding programs, in all these breeding activities we.

Are slowly but surely reaching the hand of our time together with Miss Emma Young. But before we wrap up, I want to ask you one more question. What are the current market trends? What are the things that consumers want and are actively seeking? Is it colour? Is it fragrance? Is it beauty? Earlier we said that beauty is something you can really define. So I believe the essence of my question is this. What are consumers asking for in these days? And looking ahead, what's the next for the Mizomeyoung? What would be its next big breakthrough? The next explorer that defines the future of the Roses? You know, you, you got the I rented a car rather recently and I had an MG.

For me, MG was an English car. I discovered it's a Chinese car. OK, so they tried to fool me. Fortunately I couldn't read. But it isn't a Chinese car. And I have nothing against a Chinese car, but they bought a brand name that that's the way the world is is going. People think a rose needs to have fragrance. Oh yes, it sure does.

And we had, we are permanently doing studies on this and we had PhD that were working with us through university, which was successful again. And we could determine some of the important points on fragrance, how to do it. And this is going to be publicized very recently the university from was from Santa Tien and the young lady was with us for years alternative attorney.

And this is the House of man principle. That is why it's a company, but it's called the House of Mail. So we had and, and, and, and this is very, very important, that deal in the old days, which maybe 25 years ago we were working with a company in gross which became a huge international company. So they lost the interest.

We don't, We have not lost our interest, but they did and for them they're looking at a budget. We are very frequently not looking at the budget on these things. A budget on this is just one person to be dedicated to a program. The other part of it is part of our daily work. So one of the variety that we protected through the office was my Bambino, which my Bambino was the first miniature rose that could be grown without any entrant permanently.

So we started with the clown that was for pot, small pot for and and we, we succeeded in it, we tested it and now it's becoming a landscape rose. We have 1 plantation, 1 plantation that is in its fifth year in Saragosa Espana of 8000 of them in the parks and 8000 for anybody it's a big quantity for us it's a huge quantity for landscape and everything was paid for. They and they every year send me the picture and say Allah this is unbelievable.

May Bambino which is the registered name for OCVV and many many other countries in in the world and the brand name in western world is Zepati Zepati with Z and in America it's petite knockout and and and that because they could not pronounce Zepati. Zepati was too much. Maybe El El Fumo de de Pomodor de Zepati and they don't know how to pronounce it, but it's very, very important.

I got the list of the countries where we applied for and of course European Union, United States, Argentina, China, Australia, Brazil, Korea, Costa Rica. Why Costa Rica? That might be 1 important thing for you as a CVV. You are Costa Rica is such a small country. No, you you we will never have the the money back of our investment.

Yes, but many of the propagators have their facilities in Costa Rica. They propagate there to make their routine cuttings and send them to other places. So if they come from Costa Rica without protection, they could claim it's a free variety, which it is in Costa Rica. But what is the European Union OCVV saying to us?

I'm not sure we could protected under the OCVV title of protection one way or another. I leave it to you at the at 19th of March, get the answer from the office. But this is part of the strategy. So we have other countries, Elaine. Yeah, we have, we've got Japan, Kenya, Japan, Kenya. Why Kenya again? Kenya, because big European company do propagate there. It's it's a propagating land, Turkey, Uruguay. So you're under 781978 Vietnam, Russian Federation, Ukraine. Yeah, yeah.

Serbia, Israel, India, Indonesia. Indonesia is not a member of the UPOF, but we have protection there. And that was the first ornamental to be protected was in Indonesia, because Indonesia, it's just a small country, 250 million people, the number 4 population worldwide, scattered in 13,000 islands.

But we have to start again part of our imagination. Every week we got a room where we have a meeting and we look at the world map and we say where are we going to be tomorrow? More than what variety will be present tomorrow. We, we reading if it's for expansion, we're looking at territories breeding it for improvement, we're looking at our breeding team and say we need to breed for that, that or that. And nowadays because of the shutdown of Russia and I need to talk about it, we still have plant breeding breeders rights there under EU path valid for 30 years. It was one of the first countries to grow on 30 years with Japan and just to give and most of Moscow is planted with the family of knockout.

All our knockout are protected in Russia. We don't get royalties out of Russia. We have no more contact there. The only contact we have is through our patent attorney there that say you we maintained the title. We were informed by you to maintain the title. The only thing we cannot pay for this bloody 250, whatever dollars or euro a year to maintain the title alive. This is part of the House of May on daily life. That's how we do.

Thank you. Thank you very much for this sneak peek into the live of House Maiyan at daily basis, for this trip around the world where Maiyan is and the different protection that you are enforcing and for your time, Mr. Maiyan. Alan, thank you for your time. Say see you the 19th of March in Nanje.

Thank. You very much and yeah, indeed. See you, see you. See you in March. See you. Bye bye. A big thank you to Ala Mignon of Haus Mignon for sharing his perspective on breeding long term investment and what it takes to create varieties that truly stand the test of time. Thank you as well to Jean Maison who join me for this conversation. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow the podcast.

Seeds of Tomorrow is a podcast by the community plan variety office where innovation takes root. I'm Alessio De Laurentiis signing out. Thanks for listening and see you in the next episode.

Episode 8: Roses with Rights – The Business and Breeding Behind the Bloom

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