Submission and Discipleship with Ariyana Rimson

0:00 Hey everybody, welcome back to the Disciple Makers podcast. Today's episode features Ariana Wimson, who teaches that disciple making is Christ's command and begins with submission to God, which is from James 4-7. Executing scripture rather than personal opinions and resisting the enemy through teaching.

0:29 It's word-based advice and modeling your Christ-following life. And so let's take a listen as we hear from Ariana. I am so excited to be here. I am so excited that you are here and that you want to grow in disciple making, that you have committed your time for these two days to learn more about it and that you want to take this back to your churches and your communities.

0:54 I love that. And so I just thank you so much for doing that. One, that you want to join in with what Christ has told us to do. He's commanded us to make disciples. This isn't something that man came up with. This is something that God came up with. Does that make sense? And so I think one of the issues that you have to deal with when you talk about discipleship is submission.

1:18 And I think we want to start with realizing that we first had to submit to Christ. Right. And so Jim shared about how Christ called his disciples to follow him. So we are first have to make that decision and say, I want to follow Christ. I want to submit to his leading in my life. And then once I do that, then I submit to the call that he has on my life.

1:39 And I believe that Christ has the same call for everyone's life, which is to make disciples. Now, the sphere of influence that he has for you is different. That might be in the workplace, that might be in the home, that might be in a business. But we still have the same call, and that is to make disciples.

1:56 One passage I looked at is James 4, 7. It says, So that is the command that he calls us to. He says, I want you to submit to God. And so when we do that, then we say, OK, God, what do you want me to do? Because now that I'm sitting here and I'm listening to you and I'm in tune to what you're telling me, now I will go where you tell me to go.

2:19 Now, when I think about discipleship relationships, I think that one of the first things we want to do is that we seek to execute the commands that are already in Scripture. That I'm not trying to make something new. I'm not trying to give you my opinions or my traditions. But rather, I'm taking you back to God's Word, and I'm saying, OK, God has said submit to him.

2:40 Thus, that's what I want to help you to do. That's the whole desire of a discipleship relationship, is I want to help you to submit to what God has called us to do. All of us, not just you, but me also. And so I want to walk with you so that we can learn how to submit to Christ together. That make sense? That's a relationship.

2:58 It's not me saying, OK, you do all those good Christian things. You do all that. You go to church. You do this. And I'm just going to sit back and, you know, keep record. No, we're doing this together. Does that make sense? And so when I think about doing that, and we're seeking to educate and execute the commands that are already in Scripture, the other thing we're doing is we're encouraging women to not yield to the commands of the enemy.

3:25 Because God is telling us to do something. But then, as you all know, Satan is telling you to do something too. And so at the same time that I'm saying, man, this is what God is calling you to do, I'm also saying this is what God has not called you to do. He has not called you to give into your flesh.

3:39 He has not called you to be rude. He has not called you to be prideful. He has not called you to do those things. So you need to resist the things that the enemy would want you to do. And I think there's three ways we do that. First, we do that in our teaching. So when we have lessons with women, we're going back to God's Word and we're saying, OK, here's another command. Here's another thing that God teaches us.

3:58 Now let's look at how we apply that to our lives. And then I'm also showing her, OK, you shared these things with me that you're struggling with. All right, let's go to God's Word so that you can learn how to resist those things. So you saw in the video that my job right now is I'm a director at a women's recovery program.

4:15 Let me tell you, I would have never, ever, ever thought that I would be in this position. Like I said in the video, I thought I was going to be working for the WNBA. I was just ready for that. And it was so funny, the year I moved from Chicago to Memphis, we got a WNBA team. And I was like, OK, I'm going to work for Chicago Sky.

4:35 Here we go. And the Lord was like, you're going to move in August before the basketball season starts so that you're not even tempted. Like that's not even going to happen for you. But I get to see lives transformed and I get to do a different type of rehabilitation where I get to see souls rehabilitated and hearts changed and people learning how to deal with the brokenness in their lives in a different way.

4:58 Does that make sense? And so we do that through the teaching. We also do that through the advice we give. Every advice we give to a woman or a man has to come from God's Word. My pastor, when I was in college and I accepted Christ when I was 19, so I was a sophomore in college, my pastor would always say, what's your burden of proof?

5:18 So, you know, us college students would say, well, we heard that you're supposed to do this and the Bible tells you to do this and I feel like this. And he would say, OK, what's your burden of proof? Show me in the Bible where that says that. And he would say, well, maybe it doesn't say that. Maybe it's, and he's like, no, you've got to know it.

5:35 If you're going to go and tell other people and you're going to make that to be your conviction, then it has to come from God's Word. And so I take that on that I'm not going to give you any advice if it's not out of God's Word. The next way we see it is it's done through our lives. And so I can't tell you to follow Christ if you don't see me following Christ.

5:56 If you don't see me making decisions for Christ, if you see me making decisions out of my flesh, then you're going to imitate what I'm doing. Does that make sense? And so you've got to realize that if I am teaching them to execute the commands of the Scripture, then I'm also teaching them to resist what the enemy would want them to do that or what to do.

6:15 But I'm doing that through the teaching, advice, and my life. So then I kind of thought of a cross stick, and I like to do that. So it helps me to kind of stay on task and remember what God is doing or what he wants me to share about. So the first one is S. So you think about the word submit. So in order for us to submit, we have to have the same mind.

6:41 That doesn't mean that we exactly think alike. It doesn't mean we're a carbon copy, but it means that we have the same foundation. We have the same goals. Does that make sense? All right, and so it says in Amos 3.3, do two men walk together. Oh, go back. Okay, there it is. Okay. I can't look at that.

6:59 Do two men walk together unless they have made an appointment? And so if you have not said, okay, I want to disciple you because I want you to be able to walk with Christ wholeheartedly. And they're saying, I want you to disciple me because I see how you walk with Christ, and I want to walk with Christ like that.

7:17 Does that make sense? So that's the same mind. We come together and we say, okay, we're both agreeing on this same thing, that this is what we're going to do, that this is the purpose of this time. It's not to try to make you look like me. Rather, I want you to look like Christ. And they're recognizing that I am wanting to look like Christ, and I'm wanting to bring more people to Christ.

7:37 And so we've got that same mind. We're committed to that. We're both believing in the gospel, but we do not have to agree on everything. I was listening to some friends, and we were talking about discipleship, and one friend was sharing how she heard of a story where a guy told another guy that he was discipling.

7:57 He said, you need to walk like me. You need to talk like me. You need to dress like me. And I was like, ooh, where is that in the Bible? Like, where is that? Because I missed that. I've read through the Bible, and I have not seen that. That is someone who is leaning more on their ego, and they're wanting to be fed.

8:17 They're wanting to feel like I really matter, and people care about me, and look how good I am. That is pride. That is not out of God's word. That does not bring any glory to God. He has made us all different for a reason. And so I don't need to look like you, and nor do I want you to look like me. He made one Ariana Remsen.

8:36 That's it. Does that make sense? All right, the next one, the you. We need to understand what discipleship is. So when you invite someone, and you say, I would like to disciple you, or they come to you and say, I want to be discipled, you first got to lay down the ground rule. We've got to recognize what it is you're asking for and what it is that I'm able to offer.

8:55 So when I think about discipleship, I look at Luke 6, 39 through 45. And I'm not going to break down the whole thing, but I'm just going to read a little bit of it. It says, and he spoke a parable to them. A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone after he has been fully trained will be like his teacher.

9:23 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye, when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

9:44 So the first thing is, when we understand what discipleship is, is we're understanding there's a relationship between a teacher and a student. That you tell this person that I am taking on a role as a teacher, and I'm not taking that on lightly. I'm going to be in prayer about that. I'm going to be reading scripture.

10:02 I'm going to be asking God to lead me. I am not taking this just lightly. I recognize that I'm taking on a huge role in your life. And then they're saying, I'm allowing you to teach me, so thus I'm going to become a student. I'm going to submit, and allow you to teach me, and allow you to train me, and allow you to correct me, because I want to learn from you.

10:22 And so we get that first understanding, and then we recognize that, if we kind of go down a little bit to verse 43, For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from the briar bush.

10:46 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good, and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil. For his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. And so the desire is that I want to help them to bear good fruit. And if they're seeing that good fruit in my life, then they're going to want to see that good fruit in their lives.

11:07 And so they're saying, yes, I will be a student, because I want to see myself flourish for the gospel. I want to see myself become a teacher, so that I then have a student, and then make that person a teacher, and they have a student, and we just continue to go on. But if you take on that role, and you allow pride to step in, then they feel like they will never be at your level.

11:28 They feel like they will always be a student, and they'll never be able to disciple someone else. Does that make sense? But what I do in my discipleship groups, I tell them in the first week, I say, I'm meeting with you for an end goal. The end goal is that you are going to disciple someone else. And so when we get to about two months, when we're about to end, and I do it for about a year, I say, okay, is there anyone that God's been putting on your heart?

11:51 Who's on your radar? And it's usually at that time I'm not teaching any more lessons. They're writing lessons, and they're bringing them to our time, and I'm taking notes because now I'm becoming a student of them because I want them to realize you can teach me too. And so by the end, they say, okay, I've got this young woman.

12:08 I'm meeting with her. And I'm like, okay, now I would just be a resource for you. But sometimes people just get so comfortable with having people follow them that they're like, I don't want to make them strong enough because then they'll leave. Does that make sense? That is selfishness. They're not your children.

12:27 They're not your little puppets. I'm sorry, I'm about to get on a… But they are not. They are disciples of Christ, not your disciples. I'm just going to say it like that. They are disciples of Christ, not your disciples. They did not come into this world to follow you. Like that. Okay, let me go to my next…

12:46 I got seven minutes, Jesus. Okay. All right. The fruit that comes from this should be humility and not pride. It should be humility and not pride. The third one, B, is boldness. And this is in the form of confidence that says that I am confident that God has called us to make disciples. I'm confident that this word is true.

13:11 I'm confident that discipleship will transform a life. Thus, I'm going to enter into this relationship with you. I'm not confident in myself. I don't feel adequate. I never feel adequate. If it's not for Christ, I can't do this. And I've been meeting with women since, let's see, I accepted Christ in 97.

13:32 So right after college, it was probably about 2001, is when I first started discipling a girl on my own. And even from that time to now, I still feel inadequate. I'm still saying, Holy Spirit, if you don't show up, this is just going to be us having coffee together. Like, you need to come in and you need to tell me what is going on in this woman's life.

13:56 I need discernment. While she's talking, I'm praying. Like, I have no idea what to say, Jesus. Come on, Jesus, tell me something. Tell me a verse. You want me to pray? You want me to just sit quietly? Like, I'm constantly depending on him. I am never going to depend on myself. And I've seen the times when I've done that, the Lord has made it where the girls don't show up.

14:18 I'll have a morning and I'm like, well, I didn't get a chance to prepare, so we're just going to pray through this. And I started getting text messages, I'm sorry, my car, I'm sick. And the Lord's like, you will not. You will not. We're not going to have them come over and you're not spiritually ready to meet with them.

14:34 Does that make sense? And so that boldness comes because I recognize that I have to be dependent on the Lord. But I'm confident in what God has said. I'm believing what his word says. I'm not believing in my abilities because I truly believe that discipleship will transform lives. The next one is M, we mutually submit our rights to one another.

15:00 So it's a mutual submission. It's not just you're the student, so you only submit and I don't have to submit. No, we both submit. So you correct me just as much as I correct you. You tell me that, you know, Ari, the way you're talking about your cousin right now, yeah, that's not really right. Or the way you dealt with that issue, not really good.

15:23 Or you're not really trusting God in this situation. Like I love when a girl that I'm meeting with can do that with me because then I know that we've got a real relationship. Where she's like, I trust that I can be honest with you and you're not going to get upset and you're not going to get all in your feelings, that I could just be honest with you.

15:41 And I'm like, thank you. Thank you so much. That was a blind spot. I didn't see that. Does that make sense? So we mutually submit to one another. We allow them to correct us as much as we correct them. And you think about if you don't mutually submit, then what happens is this unhealthy relationship happens, which basically is you have taken this authoritative role in their lives and if they don't match up to it, then they feel inadequate.

16:10 Rather than me saying, I have authority in your life, I want to say, allow me to have an influence in your life. Allow me to persuade you to choose something different. Because the only one who has all authority is who? Jesus. He said it. He has all authority in heaven and on earth, thus I don't have any authority.

16:33 Does that make sense? You allow me to have an influence in your life or to persuade you, but God has all authority, not me. Is this good? Submit, okay. The next one, I, invitation. You are inviting them to submit to you and to imitate you as you submit and imitate Christ. And so there has to be a relationship there where you can actually invite them.

16:58 So you've got to know some things about them. I've got to know their name. I've got to know what they like. I remember one conference that my friend Tiffany and I came to. It was a discipleship conference, and we were talking about, you know, what the Lord wanted to do with our church and how we wanted to start discipling more women at our church.

17:15 And there had been a woman on my mind, and I had been noticing her at church, and I noticed how she served, and I noticed how committed she was and how she was always there. And I was just like, Lord, is this the woman that you want me to meet with? And so while we were at the conference, I texted her, and I said, I don't know what's going on in your life right now.

17:33 I don't know if you're interested in this, but I would like to know if you would like to meet up and talk about discipleship. And she texted me right back, and she was like, yes. I have been wanting this. I will be committed. I will be there. And we have been meeting for over a year now. And she is on it.

17:48 And now she is leading a small group at our church with another woman. And it's because I got to know her, and I watched her, and I knew her name, and I had her phone number. Thus, I could invite her into my life. Does that make sense? So you start with those basic relationships, talking to people, getting their numbers, saying, how do I have a relationship with you?

18:08 Then you invite them into that discipleship relationship. Now, the last one, this is a thing that is so funny how the Holy Spirit works because Jim and I did not talk about our talks at all. But what he shared is the last point, is the T. This is a thing that will break up every relationship. It's a temptation, and it's a temptation to have pride.

18:34 Pride will ruin, ruin your relationship. So just like the passage I shared in the beginning, the James 4-7, it said, Submit, therefore, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. So on the one side, you're submitting, but on the other side, you've got to resist. And the main thing Satan wants to use in our relationships to destroy it is pride.

18:54 So the way pride looks or the way you kind of see pride in a teacher is they start to think that I have all authority, that you have to look just like me, that if you don't follow all of my rules, then you're messing up. And that's pride. Another way that looks at is if you think about a woman who is not strong emotionally or a man who's not strong emotionally, and then that discipleship relationship serves to meet their emotional needs.

19:24 That make sense? And so I don't feel good about myself. I have, or I'm just saying I don't, but let's say I don't feel, I do feel good about myself. Okay. I was like, hold on. Okay. Let's say someone does not feel good about themselves, and they don't have a good identity about themselves, and thus, they enter into a relationship, and this girl is telling them, You're so awesome.

19:46 I'm so glad you're mentoring me. And their head is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And they're just like, I am just the best thing since sliced bread. I just own the world. I can do all things. And the Lord's just like, That is not what discipleship is supposed to do. Does that make sense?

20:04 And so you've got to get to a point where your identity is complete in Christ, not in anyone else, not in the accolades of anyone else, not in the affirmation of anyone else. You've got to know who you are in Christ before you can really enter into this kind of relationship. Because if you don't, then it's going to become unhealthy.

20:23 Does that make sense? Now, on the side of a student, pride looks like one who is resistant, one who says, I'm constantly rebellious. I don't want to listen to what you have to say. I don't want to do those things. I don't want to learn these things. I think I know the best thing to do. That's what pride looks like in a student.

20:41 And so I had that example in my life. I had a young woman that I was meeting with when I was on staff at Downline, and she had known Jesus. I knew her from camp days, so I knew her when she was a teenager. And we were meeting, and it was her and another woman in the group. And so the other woman was committed.

21:00 She was coming with her memory verses and Bible and everything. This other girl, she was like, I don't really want to do this. I already know this stuff. I've already done this. I've already done that. So I kept going for a little bit, and I was like, okay, Lord, maybe she's going to change around. Maybe she's going to get it.

21:18 And one day, it was just her and I. And I'm listening to her complain and say, I don't really want to do this. I'm tired. And I said, you know what, sis? This isn't working. And that's okay. I will be your sister in Christ, but I've got other things I could be doing at this time. So let's just hang out another time.

21:37 Go ahead and get your stuff. And this is a true story. Get your stuff, let's go. And I walked into the door, and I said, I love you, but we're not going to do this anymore. Because the pride in her was like, I don't want to submit. I'm going to constantly buck everything you tell me. And my thing is, I've got too many other things going on in my life.

21:57 And there are other women who want this, thus I would like to give my time to them. You know, there's a phrase called, you don't carve rotten wood. So if they don't want it, then you say, okay, you go ahead. You go do what you want to do. I'm good. And when you do want it, then you can come back. Does that make sense?

22:16 I'll always be here. And her and I are still in great relationship, but we never went back to that discipleship relationship again. Does that make sense? So in closing, to submit to one another, we do this out of oneness in mind. And so we first have to agree of what we're doing. We understand what discipleship is.

22:37 We understand that we are bold because of what Christ has said, not because of who we are. We mutually choose to submit to one another, ask to the Lord, and then we start this relationship by invitation. And lastly, we watch out for the temptation of pride. We ask God constantly, Lord, is there any pride in my heart?

22:59 Am I doing anything? Am I saying anything that doesn't line up with you? And if it does, please reveal it to me. Does that make sense? All right. I love you all. I don't know you all, but I love you. So that's all. Oh, wait, I need to pray. Hold on. I forgot the little paper said I got to pray. Okay.

23:22 Sorry. Y'all are a great group. You just laugh with me and everything. Okay, let me pray. Heavenly Father, we do thank you for this time. Lord, we thank you for your grace and your mercy towards us. Lord, we do not take that lightly. We recognize that we are but dust, Lord God, that we mess up constantly, Lord, but yet you have favor to allow us to be in a relationship with you, and we didn't have to do anything for that.

23:54 We thank you that you sent your son to die on the cross for our sins, to raise from the dead, and to give us a new life in you. And, Lord, we desire to see lives transformed, Lord God, and so I pray for every woman and every man in this room. Lord, I pray that they would enter into these relationships.

24:10 I pray that you would make them secure in you like your word says, that we are complete in you, that people do not complete us. A discipleship relationship will not complete us. The number of disciples we've made will not complete us, that we are complete in Christ. And so, Lord, I pray that we would submit to you and submit to your call in our lives.

24:30 And, Father, I do pray all these things in the name of Jesus. Amen. Yeah, I'm going to move it, yeah. That's pretty heavy. Hello, brother. Well, this is going to be easy. These are the two of the easiest persons to love in all the world, Jim and Arianna. And I've known them for several years, spent good time with them, and I know they have a lot to share.

25:03 They were so good, weren't they? Yeah. So you guys were talking about pride, temptation, and how pride kills discipleship. And I kind of want to just start with a question to each of you that pertains specifically to the kind of ministry you do. And so I'm going to start with you, Jim. Do you think that in your church, what are some of the ways that you see pride specifically damaging or sabotaging people's lives and keeps them from getting to where they need to be as far as maturity?

25:50 Because I know maturity is a very specific and important thing to you. Yeah, well, pride gets in the way in all kinds of different ways. I don't let you get to know me. I hear that a lot from people because I've been hurt, which is really pride in the sense that I'm going to protect myself. I'm not going to let you in.

26:13 Pride, when I say pride, I don't mean it's always I'm great. It's being self-absorbed. So being self-absorbed, thinking about yourself constantly. I don't know who said this, but I think humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's just thinking about yourself less. And so pride says, I won't let you get to know me because you might hurt me.

26:40 Or I won't follow. I won't surrender. I won't submit. Pride says, I know better. My gift is more important. Pride says, I love my music. I wasn't fed today. You didn't shake my hand. You didn't call me when I was gone. It's just this constant empty vacuum that says, I'm in the room and I'm the most important.

27:06 And when that happens, it means I won't follow. It means that I won't let you know me. How do you practically, how do you address that as a pastor? I think first you have to do it relationally because a lot of the conversations, a lot of the hurt, a lot of the things that are in a person's life that causes that are based on hurt, pain.

27:33 They're deeply rooted. It's not just a behavior. They stem from something. And so first I might get irritated at the behavior, but I have to go, okay, what's happened in their life? And the only way I can get to know what's happened in their life is if I start to build a relationship. So now I know I can come to learn what's really going on, but I also now earn the right through loving them and encouraging them and being curious about them in all those other ways, I now earn the right to have that conversation that they need to have about moving from being self-absorbed and about all that to moving and growing.

28:13 And again, some of that happens naturally as you talk about their identity in Christ and who God made them to be and they have somebody pouring into them that wasn't there before. They do start to grow as the Holy Spirit does work, the Word of God shapes their mind. But again, if I don't have relationship with them, I can't know what's really going on.

28:32 I just know the symptom of the problem, not the problem, and I haven't earned the right to speak into it. Okay. Arianna, as you were speaking, the question that I kept thinking to ask you was when you're working with people in the context in which you work with them and with the problems that they face, do you think that there's brokenness in people that's a bad brokenness and then there's a good brokenness?

29:04 How do those interface? Do people come to you with an excuse for why they can't change? Yeah. So I feel like we have a different type of women that kind of walk through the doors. So you've got the woman who is going to blame her family, is going to blame her boyfriend, is going to blame her husband, is going to blame everyone else for her addiction.

29:29 And then you've got the person who's like, it's me, I'm horrible, I can never change, I'm the worst thing ever, I will never get better. And so when we deal with both of those, it's funny because it still is pride. It's like, I'm not going to accept any responsibility or I'm so horrible, I'm so this, I'm so that.

29:46 So everything keeps coming back to them. And granted, yes, you need to accept responsibility, but you also have to recognize is that the Lord is going to redeem you if you would give him a chance, if that makes sense. And so one of the things we deal with is when we talk about pride to the women, we try to bring it up when we see their interactions with one another.

30:07 And we're like, okay, well, you said when coming in that it was your dad's fault that you were like this or your mom's fault, but I'm seeing you interact with other women. Your mom and dad are not here, but you're still acting like this. So that's probably something in your own heart. So we try to get them to really look at their own heart.

30:24 I constantly go back to Mark 7 and I say that everything that you're doing is coming out of your heart. So you can blame everybody else, but that stuff's already in your heart. And so when you're lying and you're gossiping and you're thinking of how you're going to hurt somebody and how you're going to hurt yourself, all that is coming out of your heart, and that's pride.

30:44 Well, when it comes to, one of the themes that I've heard you speak about over and over again is not allowing excuses to give them an excuse to not move forward. In other words, you're not providing a support group for them so that they can need support all of their life. That you have some higher standard that you're trying to get them out of that.

31:11 Yes, yes. And we want them to see that with Christ, all things are possible. We want them to see that they need a community. But we want them to not be codependent on people and feeling like, well, if I don't have this person, then I can't make it. It's like you have Christ. And so you've got to recognize that he's going to be with you forever.

31:33 And then he gives you a community of people to help you. But there's no room for us to make excuses if Christ says that he redeems. If Christ says that he sets us free, then he does. And so I believe that with my whole heart. God says this word, whom the Son sets free is free indeed. So I believe he will set you free, but you've got to believe that.

31:54 And so I keep preaching and teaching the same thing over and over again. And so when the excuses come up, then I say, okay, if you didn't have that excuse, what would be the next excuse? Because there's always something else. It's like, just take responsibility and say, yes, I messed up. Yes, I did this.

32:09 And then we can move on. But we're going to sit in this office all day if you keep coming up with something else, something else. I don't know if that answers the question. I mean, Jim, it seems like many Christian leaders don't expect very much of their congregations, that they kind of let them off the hook.

32:28 And I remember Robert Coleman. I was having a conversation with him one day. And I said, Dr. Coleman, if you could say one thing to the American church, the average person in the church, what would you say? And he said, I would want to ask them, what is your excuse for not obeying the Lord's command to make disciples?

32:50 And so because you have made maturity such a big issue in your writing and in your practice of life, can a person be a mature Christian and not reproduce? Well, I heard you say two things. You said, why do pastors let their people off so easily? I don't think pastors know their people to know whether they're getting off easy or not.

33:19 When I don't know the people, other than surface, and I preach a message, I have no idea whether they're doing something or not. So you see what I'm saying? In maturity, unless you are walking with someone like Jesus walked with his people, I mean, when Jesus would teach, it was in response or in view of his disciples all the time.

33:45 So when he taught on, he would be first must be last, it was in response to what he was seeing his disciples do. And then he held them responsible. When a pastor goes into his office for 20, 30 hours a week to work on a message, goes to a few meetings, he doesn't know where his people are at. Right? So it'd be hard to hold somebody responsible for something when you don't know.

34:11 On the other side of what you were saying, I think, I mean, statistics nationally say that most Christians are more biblically illiterate than they've ever been. So number one, they don't know the word. I think pastors are doing more storytelling from outside of the word because they want to attract people.

34:34 They want to be motivational and actually not motivational, inspirational. So they want to shape the message to the people they're trying to reach. And reaching them is as simple as saying, you know, you can have your, God wants you to be prosperous and wealthy and wants to follow you around. And so I don't know that in a lot of places the word's being taught.

35:02 The people aren't reading it for themselves. They know what Christians say, but they don't know what the word of God actually says to be able to test it. And so, yeah, so I would say that's probably the biggest issue. I'd like for each of you to answer this question, and that is, how is authority and accountability, this is a big issue.

35:26 It's something that Christian leaders and the Christian congregants really shy away from, and that's holding each other accountable. So in both your cases, I guess we'll go with you first, Ariana. What is the most effective way to develop a trust relationship with a person so that they'll drop their guard and let you into their life and you can hold, and what's the greatest power of holding people accountable?

35:56 Yeah. Well, when I think about like discipleship relationships, I think transparency. One of the first things I do is we share our stories, right? And so I'm sharing everything that I feel comfortable with sharing at that time. And then as we continue in this relationship, I'm sharing even more and I'm sharing even more to the point where I'm saying, okay, if you go out and share this, it's going to be really bad.

36:19 And so I'm going to need to know that I can really trust you right now. And so then I feel like once you've gotten that kind of relationship going, then there's that accountability that says, okay, I'm sharing my sin struggle with you now. Not just all the stuff that's happened in my past, but this is what I'm currently struggling with.

36:37 Like I get easily upset or whatever, and then I'm telling them that, and then they're saying, okay, I'm going to hold you accountable. But then here's the thing with accountability, and I'll give you a story. So our ladies at Mariah House, they're all trying to eat healthy. And so one lady asked another one, like, don't let me drink anything other than water.

36:56 And so then at dinner, she went and got a cup of iced tea. And the girl's like, I thought you said you don't want to drink that. And she was like, not right now. I don't want you to hold me accountable right now. And I was like, and so I told her, I said, you can't ask somebody to hold you accountable.

37:09 And then put parameters on it and say, well, don't hold me accountable in this area. And I laughed about that. But then I compared that to our Christian relationships, and we're the same way where we're saying, yeah, hold me accountable in my relationship with my boyfriend. And then you ask them a question.

37:24 They're like, oh, well, I don't really want to talk about that. It's like, okay, then you don't want to be held accountable. So you can't pick and choose. If you're asking someone to get in your life and know what's going on and speak into it, then you've got to allow them to do that. I love your stories.

37:41 I agree. Well, Jim? Yeah, I agree. The leader's responsibility, he sets the tone. The group will only go as deep as the leader goes. And when a leader of a group, a discipleship group, says, shares what's really going on, not just the past, but what's really going on right now, where you struggle and opens up, then he says, and you say, here's what I'd like you to do to help me with this.

38:19 Just ask me these questions. And then the guys or the ladies, whoever you're with goes, okay, so we're going to go there. We're going to go that deep. And you've got to go first. Which means you have to be willing to get hurt. Because if you share, it could make it out of that room. But again, as Arianna said, you set the appointment, but you also set the boundaries.

38:47 Here's what I expect. Here's what I expect. And let's set the parameters. Because most of these people don't know what real relationship looks like. They got relationship handed down to them from their parents, from other places that weren't very safe and all that. So they're just going to reproduce what they've learned to live in.

39:05 So what we have to do is say, here's what we're going to do. Here's what I expect from you. And then you have to hold them accountable. I'm going to say in our group, you're not going to share what we say outside of this group. If I hear that you did, I'm going to say, hey, I love you, but that's not going to happen.

39:22 And if you defend or you continue to do it, then you're just not going to be in the group. Because we're going to have a safe group here. So, you know, Scripture says confess your sins one to another. Again, that's appropriate. The more somebody is faithful, the little, the more you give them. So you need to make sure that you share at one level here and you share at another level here, depending on the faithfulness of that group.

39:46 But if you won't share anywhere, then there's issues. And again, the kinds of disciples you'll make will be those that just stay surface and don't really go deep, which means that they're isolated. The devil loves to play in the secret. He loves to get you isolated. And you're right, we have Jesus, but Jesus supplied power that comes through relationships.

40:08 We carry one another's burdens. Part of how God strengthens us and helps us is that we confess our sins and then we have believers that actually help us. There are some things that I can't, I'm supposed to carry my own weight, but as best I can. But some things are too heavy for me to carry. That's why we help carry each other's burdens.

40:26 And so we do it together, but you've got to set that, you've got to hold to that line, you've got to protect that because the enemy's going to try to break it up and people are going to go back to old patterns and you have to fight for that culture and continually, in love, say this is where we're going.

40:43 But Dietrich Bonhoeffer had a saying in his little book, Life Together, where he said that your sin wants to be alone with you. And the idea was that Satan will try to convince you that you and Jesus can handle your sin and you don't have to let anybody else in on it. And you can just take your problem and nobody really needs to know and you can confess it and then you can, then you'll do it again and then you'll confess it.

41:19 You're chained to it. And what are some of the things that you've found in helping people uncover? Uncover these sins that they're ashamed of that dominates them and that they just plan on not changing and they just hopefully, God will change it when they go to heaven. Yeah. Well, some of the things that I guess some of the women share at Mariah House is just some sin patterns that they've seen in their lives over and over again.

41:52 And I think what happens is once they've had that time, this is an equation we use at Mariah Houses, time plus truth equals trust. And so that time that they get with us, and it's a live-in facility, so they see us all day long and we have a night staff. So they see us every single day and then we're sharing truth with them and then they're starting to trust us.

42:12 And so once they start to trust us, then we can actually say, okay, what's that one thing you don't want to talk about? Or this is something that I'm seeing in your autobiography because we have them write that out. This is something I'm seeing but you haven't wanted to talk about this yet. Is there a reason for that?

42:27 But I think you have to have that time built up. And you have to know that truth has been shared over and over again and then the trust comes. And we tell them that with their families too because they'll come in and they'll say, well, my family should just trust me because I'm here. And I was like, well, honey, this is the fifth time you've been in a recovery program.

42:47 It's probably not gonna work like that. They need to see that you're committed. But I feel like people are so afraid to share their hearts because they've been taken advantage of so much and they don't know who they can trust. And so if they know that you're consistent and you're always gonna be there and what you say is always truth, then they have that trust and they're able to share those hard things.

43:11 And then they get to see how God can redeem and how God can change and how God can forgive and give them new life outside of that sin struggle. Yeah, I would say discipleship is like a plane with two wings. Part of what you offer people, part of what Jesus offers people is a real family relationship in Christ.

43:40 But it's also a mission. So one of the problems I have with, when you go too far on the mission side, it's I gotta take you through a process, you gotta go through the curriculum, you gotta go through the stuff so you can go off and disciple somebody else, right? And mission is what matters most. Then you got people with the other side of the wing and it's relationship matters most.

44:02 And we're just gonna do life together and we're gonna be like this woman, I finally found a home. I finally found what I was always looking for, a church family. And we're gonna be this holy huddle and family for the rest of our life. Forget all those people out there that need Jesus because they need to go find their own family.

44:19 That's right. It's tensions on both sides. Which is why, if you know that part of why they act the way they act is because of deep hurts and sins that are under there. And it takes time to get to know them and where they trust you and there's consistency to tell what they've been hiding and isolating on and too ashamed to speak of and what they've done or what they feel.

44:47 If you're just going through a program, you never get to what's really going on in there so that it stays hidden and so they might know a bunch of stuff and they might even know how to lead a group and do a safe group but they're not safe themselves and so the devil's still got it. And so that's why relationship is so important.

45:07 You don't just go through a program. You might have been through the content. You might know all the stories but there's still something going on in your life that's unhealthy and God doesn't have yet. So just because you've been through the program it's not time for you to take off and go not until we really start to deal with some of this stuff.

45:24 A lot of the people I know though once they start seeing where you're willing to go they give it up. Depends on what you give up. I've done enough stuff that's just so bad that I can make them feel good about themselves in about two minutes. Right? And now they're like, whoa, he went there. Okay, well I'll just tell you what I got going on.

45:44 I'm like, now we can talk. And by the way, from them they're going, well I got him where I want him so I guess I'm safe because I got blackmail material if he tells my stuff. Yeah, that's right. Right? So, you know, if you want to play the game who's worse, I win usually. There's some that get me, but I win.

46:02 Now we're going to be honest. Okay, we're going to be honest. All right, now let's confess this and how's that working for you? That's directing your identity and that's directing where your life is. And sometimes they give it up so quick and they're free. They're like, wow, okay, Jesus loves me. You love me.

46:24 Whoa, and something miraculous happens and they're willing to give it up and now you don't even have to get through the whole program. They got it. They'll get there. Now you just go to make a disciple, right? But you know the ones that have the hardest time with that are people that are religious, Christians.

46:41 They're so shaped by surface and afraid to say anything. The non-Christians actually, for me, tend to grow faster because they'll just confess it whereas Christians, because of the shame and all the stuff, they won't give it up so it haunts them. What they did and the shame and the guilt or the pride, you know, well they did it.

47:03 Whatever, however it works. The self-absorption haunts them. The devil has it and they go to church for years and they're trapped. Well, the time is too short but let's thank Ariana and Jim. Jim. And let's pray together. Lord, we thank you for the lives represented here tonight in this room and the love for you and to be your disciples and may we have benefited so greatly tonight from Jim and Ariana about pride, about authority, about the importance of love and how we can be healthier and stronger and more complete in that we really can love the world like you loved it.

48:06 So we give you thanks for all of this. We give you thanks for the beauty of this gathering. In Jesus' name, amen. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Disciple Makers Podcast. Please come check us out next time as we give you more great content. And in the meantime, come and check us out at www.discipleship.org where you can find more great content like this.

48:30 We love you all and until next time, let's go out and be disciples who make disciples. We'll see you guys next time.