Beginning For Beginners with Hamish Blake & James van Cuylenburg

0:00 I like that idea of being a beginner. The beginner's mindset. Starting from a point of almost complete acceptance of whatever happens is good. Guest host and unskilled adult, Hamish Blake. Oh, that bit's still hot. Joins us to talk about the power of discomfort. With clinical psychologist James Van Kylenberg.

0:22 He's our cousin. Teaching ourselves to embrace the process of learning and not being an instant expert is what's essential. And this is where I think kids are being taught the wrong message. I've noticed with a boy, let's say between, you know, 7 and 13, wanting to be the GOAT. As in the greatest of all time.

0:42 And I've said to my son, I'm like... Hey, no one's the goat at school, but it's a hard thing to communicate to kids because they're like, how do I be the greatest of all time today? Anything that requires growth or skill requirement, you've got to go through a period of difficulty. It has to be uncomfortable.

0:59 That's essential. I actually, I went for a run the other day. You did go for a run, didn't you? I went for one run. Love to get you back, not as the host, but as a guest. I mean, you've had Ned Brockman on the show. I'd love to hear elite running. Love to get Ed as a guest host and just talk to you about your run.

1:14 Yeah, the hill killed me. Save it for your rep. Don't give it all away because now we're not going to buy the book. Run and Done by Ryan Sheldon. Well, we must begin with an enormous apology to all of the Josh van Kylenberg fans out there. Josh is sitting this one out because for a very, very good reason.

1:45 You can start fighting that down now. Yeah, great. You happy with that? This is terrifying. Hamish. I'm just working the sound effects board gear, guys. Never really allowed to touch ones. Keep going right, going well. Yeah. Yeah. So our guest host is in charge. Josh is usually in charge of fading down the music.

2:01 Hamish, you're doing it. I've never seen you concentrate so hard. Oh, it's back up again. Wow. I mean, now it's too loud. That's full volume now. I mean, incredibly, we are talking about a beginner's mindset today. So what better way to see that in action? Okay. Okay. Wow. That was excellent. Thanks, James.

2:28 We had a big chat before the episode. Bridge just reminded us this is all about James VanCole. No, no, no. There were two points to hit. There were two points to hit. Let people know that Josh isn't here. I'm sitting in his chair. And together we're all the hosts today. Yep. And we're interviewing James, who is the star.

2:46 No, we're very lucky, Hugh, because we have your cousin, James Van Kylenberg. People know James because he's been on our podcast, on The Imperfects. Yes. So this is your third time with us. James is an APRA-endorsed Doctor of Clinical Psychology with over 15 years of experience. James also co-hosts a podcast called You're a Good Kid, where he speaks to a diverse range of guests about how their childhoods have shaped who they are today.

3:11 You are an extraordinarily talented musician. One of my favourite parts of Christmas is just sitting down listening to you entertain us. And the last time you were on The Imperfects, you spoke about relationships, ins and outs of attachment styles. what intimacy looks like through life's changing seasons and how to start a conversation with your kids about the birds and the bees, which I did after that episode.

3:31 Thank you very much. And the time before that, you spoke to us about how to love your wonky bricks. So the stories from your past and the integral role of self-compassion in our lives. And we have you back today because we would love to do an episode with you on beginner's mindset. And the wonderful, serendipitous – so Hamish Blake is here as co-host.

3:53 And your new TV show, Unskilled Adult, is a – I don't think it was what you probably set out to do, but it's a wonderful exploration of exactly that. I didn't sit down with a team of psychologists to figure out the show, but it turns out that's exactly what it's about. Should have. Do your research. I know I'm even better.

4:09 I just knew. I just vibed it out. I might get an honorary doctorate. I just want to share a photo that you sent me. When the idea came up was we want to talk about Beginner's Mindset with you. Hamish is going to be a co-host and you sent me this photo, which I need to share with Hamish now because it's quite extraordinary.

4:26 Very special. And if you're listening to this, just a quick side note, a bit of an interesting announcement. If you're listening to this on the Apple Podcast app, you can actually switch this to video, see the picture, because we're on video now on Apple Podcast. So you can just switch to video, see the picture, and then you can just watch.

4:51 Have a Google. Oh, wow. God, this takes us back. Yes, it does. Are you in that? Yes, and you're in that. So this is a reunion. We're choir buddies. So this is a photo, Hamish, explain. This is from when you're in a choir. You don't see robed children anymore, do you? A robe? A robe. Have you ever worn a robe after that?

5:13 No, I didn't like wearing it at the time either. I mean, it was wild. We were in the National Boys Choir. Yes. And we used to sing. It's only now, maybe I've suppressed this, but it's only now just looking at the costume that we had to wear. Like, why did we wear that? It was a red robe with a lamb skin fur collar.

5:32 It's a bit cultish, isn't it? It's really cultish. It's not a normal thing to wear. But at the time we were like, well, I guess everyone else is wearing it. And because you're little, like we're like nine years old or something. Yeah. You, I guess we thought there's no, you don't have phones or the internet.

5:47 I guess you just figure, I guess this is what other choirs wear. But now that I'm an adult, I'm like, that doesn't happen. Why did we have to wear those robes? This was us in the National Boys Choir. And it looks like there's a pharmacy in the background, which would lead me to believe we were probably singing at a food court.

6:05 I think this was Colin's place. Yeah. Sometimes at near Christmas, we'd have to sing Christmas carols in a food court. Yes. Yes. Remember it was white because it was so hot. People would like going down with heat stroke because it was always like December in Melbourne. And there was one year where a kid, I think he had a strawberry milkshake before the... Oh, no.

6:24 And then just power spewed it because... It was so hot. And he had like two litres of milk before the performance. It is funny looking back on it. I don't know how your experience was, James, but I'm just like, I'm baffled that I stuck with it for that long. No, same. I had the same experience. And it was exciting to get into it in the first place.

6:42 Like you really felt like you'd been chosen. But in the end, the reality is you just dragged around to people's weddings and random performances and Colin's place. Yeah, then I had a moment when I was about 12 or 13 where I was like, I don't like this. I was so scared going to my bowling. Same. I was like, hey, do I have to do the choir?

7:00 And she's like, no, you don't have to, but you like it. I was like, I don't. I had the same experience. And I'll tell you something. This just came back to me now. This was awful. And sorry to throw National Boys Choir under the bus a little bit here. After Carols by Candlelight was when I formally quit and I was feeling so guilty about it, you know, as a kid quitting the choir, cause it was made up to be this big thing.

7:20 And so my parents came with me as I built up the assertiveness to tell the team. And he said to me, look, if you quit this, you'll be quitting things your whole life and won't amount to anything. Wow. And I was shattered. Yeah. Of course. That's a big thing to settle kids. Can you believe that? I was 12.

7:39 Horrible. Or 11. It was ridiculous. I suppose it was hard to, like, once you're in and you knew all the songs and you knew all the stuff, it would be like that thing you hear where they're like, you know, every Navy SEAL costs $10 million because they've, like, invested that much training. So I was like the choir version of the Navy SEALs.

7:55 Like, the government has selected you. We have put you through the program. You can sing Vivaldi's Mass. You cannot walk out on this. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a kind of a good segue because the reason, Hamish, that you are here is because you have made a whole show that Hugh and I are very lucky to be a part of.

8:13 Yeah. A whole show about learning new skills. About being a beginner. Yeah. That's what I was like. I would love to come and pick your brain, James, about the experience we've had making this show Unskilled Adult, but actually learning a little bit about the science of being a beginner. In the show, for those that are not aware of it, I'll do a quick mini synopsis of what it's about.

8:38 Essentially, it was like getting to a stage in midlife of going, I don't feel like I have tons of skills. Like if you look at, you know, just anyone, whether you can sew or bake or build a gazebo or whatever, you're like, I am impressed by people that have that knowledge to do that stuff. So we set up a business essentially where people could submit jobs between like a few hundred and a few thousand dollars.

9:03 And then we open an envelope and whatever the job is in there, we call them and go, all right, we'll do it. And there's some real people doing real jobs. Real people that have just submitted real jobs and for real money. So good. And so by inventing that thing of like, well, now we've promised someone we're going to do it, we have to do it.

9:21 So good. So that's what the show is. And you're essentially going, well, I have to... find a way to do this new thing with the existing tools that I have? And how can I recombine maybe what I know into learning something new? I love this concept and it does speak to something quite universal. So I think this is a really good topic for us to dive into.

9:43 I mean, there's so many different places we could start here, James. I think the really, because I'm going to, I'm trying to think of it from my own point of view and adults' point of views, but I can't help but think about my kids as well. Yes. Our six-year-old has tried to ride a bike once and, you know, got so angry at the first time it wobbled, got so angry, threw it down the ground, has never tried since and we cannot convince her to even – she will not do it because it was scary, it was uncertain, it was I can't do this and it made her angry.

10:08 Her response was to get angry that she couldn't do it. And so I think for me this chat is about us as adults, how do we – because I think it's so important the older I get, the more I realise we need to – learn new things and start new things, but it can be quite daunting and bending for our kids as well.

10:23 So how do we get into a beginner's mindset? How do we get into that state mentally? We're like, right, I'm doing something new. What's the best headspace to be in here? Yeah. So this is, it's a great topic. It speaks to something that's going on broadly. That's everything, you know, you can think about this perhaps just as technology is increasing, how things are easier or theoretically easier and simpler and faster than ever before.

10:48 It's frictionless. Right. And the idea being that that makes life easier for us. But... we're learning more and more how that's actually doing quite a bit of damage and creates a lot of disadvantage. And, you know, if you think about this, like as easy as those apps might be and those things that make life quicker are, you know, you have whatever you want, whenever you want it, you know, food or entertainment or anything.

11:12 It's just instant. Is that increasing our happiness and connection as a society? Well, no, it's not. Like we all understand this, I think now, you know, intuitively. But what do we do about it? And that's why I think this concept is so good in kind of thinking about, well, what do we actually need to do if all of these things coming easily isn't helping our brains and isn't actually resulting in less anxiety and more connection?

11:38 In fact, it's resulting in more anxiety and more loneliness. Yeah. well, hang on a sec, we've got this wrong here. We have to challenge this, what looks like just, it was the promised land of everything's going to be so much easier, but it isn't. So this whole concept of beginner's mindset is a big, big part of the puzzle, I think.

11:56 When you said loneliness, where's the loneliness come into it? I think that a lot of the modern offerings, particularly in terms of technology, social media, et cetera, are solo sports. You know, they are replacing the real world connection, the sense of working on something together in person, face to face.

12:16 You know, the offering is it's easier. Just do this on your phone. It kind of like now that we have AI to ask anything, I mean, before that Google, it's like so often I'm thinking I could... I know it would be so much healthier and more interesting to call someone and ask how to do this. If you like had to get a stain out of your clothes, now you quickly find out in five seconds.

12:39 Yeah. Whereas like previously you might go, I've got to call my parents because they'll probably know from something they learned from their parents. Sure. And then you've just got, just from asking the question, that's an excuse to have a conversation or a connection with them. Yeah, totally. And that's just one example, isn't it?

12:55 But it's pretty much everything now, isn't it? Like we will, you can see this, that the cultural momentum, it's just headed this way. Like it's going to be more and more integrated AI, as you've mentioned. And yeah, technology is only going to get better. Um, so yeah. We can't say that that stuff's not helpful.

13:11 It is, it is extremely helpful, but at the expense of, uh, learning new skills gradually and what that does to the brain, I guess we'll get into that today. Yeah. Um, it's, it's too big a trade off. So we need to find a balance. Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects, and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it.

13:31 Hang on, why do we need... Sorry, no, I'm just making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show, am I right? Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

13:48 Yeah, but if I use the emotional music. I think the music's a bit much. Is it? Who's playing that music? Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid. Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.

14:08 Oh, and not use emotional manipulation. Yeah. Yeah, I reckon. We can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work. I think a little bit what we're talking about here is like, you know, journey versus destination. We're tricked into thinking that the destination is the point. Like, I'm hungry. Having a cheeseburger here in five minutes is the point versus cooking or, you know, a thousand, 500 years ago, foraging for something to eat.

14:31 Foraging for cheeseburgers. Yeah, foraging, finding a cheeseburger tree. Yeah. Oh, this one's not ripe. I'll still do it anyway. And it's got so frictionless that we just get solutions now instead of ever having to kind of work for anything. And we all know working for something makes it a lot more valuable.

14:45 And obviously, especially with kids, like that often isn't the way it goes. That's it. Is part of a beginner's mindset, you know, I'd be interested to know what things make up technically a beginner's mindset, but is part of it starting from a point of almost complete acceptance of whatever happens is good?

15:04 As long as you move, you're inching down the field. Because it is about the process and, yeah, teaching ourselves to embrace the process of learning and not being an instant expert is what's essential. And this is where I think kids are being taught the wrong message. I think I spoke about this last time I was on Imperfect, that they can jump on YouTube and pull up whatever they're interested in.

15:28 And it's flooded with the experts, the people who've already mastered it, already good at it. And so they're just seeing like that sense of, oh, okay, well, if I like something, here's the very top level straight away. Totally. And so it's reinforcing this idea that, oh, if I'm not capable of that, then I'm a failure.

15:43 You know, there's this sort of implicit expectation that kids are really good at something straight away. And I think, as you mentioned, you know, that the kids are, they're very susceptible to that and really worried about it. Anyone that's got a young, I'm going to say boy, I'm sure this happens in girls too, but I've noticed with a boy, let's say between, you know, seven and 13, wanting to be the goat.

16:04 is like just the starting point. As in the greatest of all time. Like straight away being like, oh, you know, whatever, Jeff at school, he's the GOAT at that. Like that's what's hailed as like the high status thing. And I've said to my son, I'm like, hey, no one's the GOAT at school because you're at school.

16:22 But it's like it's a hard thing to communicate to kids. Totally is. They're like, no, no, but how do I be the greatest of all time today? Yeah. That's the thing I found out about yesterday. Yeah. I need to be an instant greatest of all time. And also to just go over what you said there, James, like our eldest, when he loves sport, he will watch it.

16:39 And the way you consume it now is not like we used to watch it, which is like long form watching five days of a test match. So if it's soccer or cricket or basketball that he loves, when we go outside, he wants to reverse sweep the first ball, which is an impossible thing for most people. He wants to shoot only three-pointers because Steph Curry does that.

16:58 And in soccer, when he started, he wanted to having shots from outside the box because he sees Messi do that. And the frustration and the anger and the disappointment when he couldn't do that, it was that exact thing of like, I'm going to watch the best do it and that's what I need to be. Yeah, so I think we're just sort of training kids to feel this way by nature of a society that wants everything now and wants everything fast and easily.

17:22 So when we expect them to be patient and, you know, go slow and see the long-term benefits of sticking at something, that is counterintuitive to pretty much every message they're getting from almost everywhere. So is it any wonder that they struggle with that and that adults struggle with it too? I've referenced this a few times on the podcast, but the woman called Gretchen Rubin, she's an author.

17:42 And one of the things that I read from her years ago, which really resonated with me, was the idea of... process over product. But I'd grown up thinking, well, I only have value and the things that I make are only worth anything if it's the best TV show I could make. And I was so attached to the product being brilliant that I was willing to sacrifice the enjoyment of the process in order to get that.

18:12 And then I've really learned that in a practical sense since I've like started like painting. And it's an incredible experience. Like, I mean, even just doing a little bit of painting that I've done, I don't know what I'm doing, but I know a little bit more than I did six months ago. Yeah. And it's such a great feeling.

18:31 But you find out through the doing, right? Yeah. Like, I think that's the thing that I want my kids to experience too, that life is in the doing. And almost, I would argue, even just hearing about that, right, do you reckon this statement stands up? Anything good that's ever been made... has to be unplanned to some extent.

18:51 Like you have an idea of where it's going, but then as you start making the thing, it has to evolve. And... But you wouldn't want it any other way. We love life because we don't know where it's going. You're telling yourself a different story. That's what I like. When it's less about the outcome and winning or losing or success or failure, it's about what do I gain?

19:11 It's the friends we made along the way. If you can teach a kid and teach ourselves to think that way, you're going to feel really different about engaging in something. So what's been the difference for you? How does it feel to have that mindset instead of an outcome mindset? because I was like, well, I can't do that because I'm not, I would sort of tell myself I'm not a painter.

19:34 I don't know what I'm doing. And it's also the fear of doing it and it not being, like not being the goat essentially straight away. And I think since doing it and then it's sort of like what happens, I guess, is happy accidents happen. Yeah. So you're putting paint on the canvas and there might be like a little bit of leftover blue on the palette from the last time you painted.

19:57 And I didn't mean for blue to go on this brush stroke, but there is. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. And so it just sort of gives me confidence to just keep playing and just keep trying stuff and then unexpected things will happen. And then the more I keep trying, the more I get confidence to try new things and new things and new things.

20:17 And I'm not going to ever be, who knows, but I'm never going to be the goat of a, I'm not going to be the greatest of all time painters. You should stop then. Yeah. You're not going to be the goat. What's the point? But it's so fun. That's great. It's so fun. So that's a really, really important reframe that you're talking about and something we can try and remember when we're teaching kids or even thinking about that ourselves.

20:37 It's a really good way to change the story and incredibly important. There's also some really good research around talent versus, you know, grit and perseverance, that talent's not a good predictor of good outcomes. Really? It's just a starting point, you know. But effort, you know, obviously, so that leads to skill.

20:57 And then skill plus effort leads to good outcomes. So in that sense, you know, effort is twice as important as talent. It's true. I think a lot of parents in this day and age would love to be able to, communicate that idea that I think our generation has, but it feels like it's dying out of, of, you know, for want of a better term, boring reps. Yep.

21:18 But isn't that a hard sell, right? Yeah. You've got to stick at it and it might be boring and it won't be very rewarding yet. Yeah. That is such a hard thing to buy into. My gosh, I'm struggling with that with my eight year old at the moment. You know, she loves playing piano. I don't have a leg to say that because that's exactly why I quit piano.

21:34 Right. This sucks. Well, time to start again. Yeah. New episode of the show, man. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really, really difficult. And that's the bit that goes against the cultural wave that we talked about. You know, it's all about instant reward. So trying to teach ourselves and our kids that it isn't actually.

21:50 There's something more rewarding out there. And so I guess what we've been talking about so far is the kind of psychology of it and the way we talk to ourselves and think about it. But there is a neurochemical aspect of this as well that we can't ignore. And that's about the reward center of the brain and dopamine and how that interacts with our motivation as well.

22:07 So do you want to get into that now? Yes, quite great. How do we... How do we get it happening in the right dosages at the right frequency? That's exactly it. And we are, as a culture, I think, teaching ourselves to be addicts. It's that fast hit mentality. And so what that does when we get an instant reward or someone says- What's an example of an instant reward?

22:30 Just even someone saying you're amazing. I've got a good example, I think, which speaks to this. I heard a comedian talking about this years ago. So they would write a joke on Twitter. and they would get the kind of immediate dopamine feedback from that. Yeah. And that was sort of enough to keep them going rather than putting in the effort to the bigger script or book that was actually meaningful to them.

22:55 Yes. Yeah, and it has... It has an impact. It has a measurable impact on the brain. You know, we're learning more about concentration, memory, mood. You know, like if you think about it through the lens of addiction, you know, what happens to someone when they just need that thing over and over again?

23:13 Of course, with sustained instant gratification over time, that hit doesn't hit as... high. And so you keep chasing it more and more and more. And in the end, you know, your capacity for sustained attention and long form reward is really diminished. Um, and the sense of that even being appealing, you know, so I don't know how often your kids say, sorry, we don't all have kids, but how people say I'm bored, you know, it's like, it's really, really quick for my kids to say that.

23:40 And I'm like, oh gosh, uh, you need to be bored. It's so important to be able to sit with that feeling and, and not be rewarded all the time. But it's such a battle. Like, this is, I'm speaking about my own home here. Like, this is really challenging. It does feel like we're fighting just like a world that has been engineered to give them, like, instant dopamine and instant, like, even just kids to us are just...

24:04 you know, they're small, they hold their attention for two days. Like, you know, for anyone that's got kids, they're into squishies or whatever. I can just think of like, this is just sort of silly, just kind of fast. It's like sugar for the brain and then it's onto the next thing. The sugar analogy is very apt.

24:20 And so that's kind of what our brains are doing. So we get that dopamine hit from an instant reward. When you're hungry, you eat straight away. There's the cheeseburger again or the show you want to watch. You can watch anything in the world instantly or listen to any music instantly. Yeah. It sounds like if we told ourselves back in the day that that's what the future would be like, it would have been so exciting to imagine that.

24:40 Yeah, everything's on demand. Yes. When you had to wait, but we didn't realise at the time that there was actually a lot really healthily going on there. I had the best memory in year 11 of having saved up and then catching the tram, two trams to get to JB Hi-Fi in Camberwell and buying Led Zeppelin's like greatest hits.

24:58 How old are you? There was, at the time, Unheard Band. It was a debut album. It was four shillings. It was four shillings and a half pence. And it was wonderful. And I forgot my lock. I couldn't lock up my penny farthing. I was worried that was going to get stolen. And I listened to it in a dissman on the tram on the way home.

25:19 I was like, this is one of the coolest feelings I've ever had, sitting in a tram listening to... Just ramble on, just going, I've heard this. I've gone and got it myself and I feel it just felt amazing. Like I listened to the whole album, like front to back, just like every song. Now I notice myself halfway through going, I'm a bit bored of the song, what's next?

25:37 I'm going, no, just listen to the fucking song, mate. Just listen to the whole song. So I guess the question is how do we – Knowing that we're all pretty much dopamine addicts in some way, are there steps that you can take to undo it, to just slow down a bit more? Yeah, I think, but it does go against that wave, doesn't it, of cultural momentum.

25:55 Like we really have to acknowledge this isn't going anywhere. Like this is the way society is headed. Yeah. So I'd be, you know, remiss to sit here and say, we can fix this. We can't, this is, this is the way it's going, but we can personally with our families and with ourselves practice balance, like think of it like a good diet, you know, a balanced diet.

26:14 Um, so one of the things that sort of taken hold at the moment, you might've heard of something called friction maxing. You heard that, that too? No, but I assume I can imagine what it is and I'm for it. Yeah. So you're inviting a bit of discomfort into your day and that might be a simple choice. Like instead of watching that show, I'll read that book, you know, something like that, where you slow down or you go away from the choice that would be the most obvious dopamine fix that you could give yourself and choose something else.

26:43 So what we're doing is getting off that kind of automatic pathway of fast reward and looking for an opportunity for slow release reward or something a little quieter or just more patient or more thoughtful or creative. And that's going to essentially teach ourselves a new habit gradually. And because it will feel good.

27:04 This is the thing when we do that stuff, when you invite a little bit of friction in, it's like, oh, that actually feels a bit better than whatever I was getting from that other thing. We've developed what the unfortunate product of what's going on at the moment with this kind of high speed dopamine hit all the time society.

27:20 Yeah. Is that we have developed a terrible intolerance of discomfort, of friction, of difficulty. You know, there's a mass avoidance of that. And we're all doing it, you know, to a degree, except for you with your TV show. That really could be another term for the show. Huge friction, Maxie. Take people who have no idea what they're doing and put them in a situation where they must do it.

27:41 Right. Yeah. Because it's good for us. Right. So, you know, that's the feeling we get on the show. I'm a convert because I'm like this, you just feel alive. And in some sense, it's so intuitive. Like if you think about it, just in terms of anything that requires growth or skill requirement, you've got to go through a period of difficulty.

27:58 It has to be uncomfortable. That's essential. And so when you're talking about like enjoying the process and focusing on that, how to get there bit, that's it. It's like embracing the discomfort. I mean, you must know this with your running all the time, like that it's, it's an essential part, right?

28:12 Do you enjoy that bit? The kind of the discomfort or do you have to kind of, how do you deal with that? Well, speed endurance sessions to be very specific. Yep. hurt so much and I feel so nervous before them because I know I'm about to get hurt so much. Every Saturday morning in the summer, I race every Saturday.

28:27 I wake up going, I don't need to do this. Why am I doing this? I feel so nervous. I feel physically unwell because I've got a race today. And then I get to the race and in the blocks going, What am I doing? Why do I choose to do this? I don't have to. No one's making me be here. I'm 46 years old. Yeah.

28:40 And then it hurts. And then afterwards, in the car on the way home, I'm on the biggest high humanly possible. Yeah. I couldn't feel. You're just so happy. Yeah. And it's, there's so much friction in a 400-meter. Right. It's like, it's so painful. So, yeah. So that's probably combined with the lovely endorphins that I hear people get from exercise.

28:55 I don't know personally. But I actually, I went for a run the other day. You did go for a run, didn't you? I went for one run. You loved it, didn't you? Afterwards, runners high, James. Yeah, great. Love to get you back, not as the host, but as a guest. I mean, you've had Ned Brockman on the show. I'd love to hear elite running.

29:12 Love to get Ned as a guest host and just talk to you about your run. Friction meeting. Yeah. Friction meeting. I like it. Yeah. How far was the run? For those lesson things. It was, I was the tan. So it was like, that's a big run. That's got a hill in it. Yeah. The hill killed me. Save it for your rep. Save it for your rep.

29:30 I would love it. Save it for your book. Don't give it all away because now we're not going to buy the book. Run and Done by Ryan Sheldon. Run and Done. That's not a bad idea. The boy who ran once and told everyone about it. Very good. Yeah. And has that shifted your identity in a sense of who you are in the world?

29:53 It did for a bit. Yeah, it did. Honestly, for a couple of days, if not a week, I was like, I'm a runner now. Yeah. Lap dog. Yeah. I only ran once. Hey, lap dog. He sounds like the guy that did the lap. You're not the guy that did the tan lap. I messaged George, who works on the podcast, because he runs a lot.

30:11 Yeah. And I was like. He'd get it. And George inspired me to go running. So I was like, I'm going to run. And I was so excited to tell him afterwards. And he was so excited for me. He gave me exactly what I needed to hear, just the excitement and the validation. And I kind of like, well, it's sort of, I'm done now.

30:27 That's good. But you could say that that was an example of friction maxing, right? Trying something that was difficult and painful. The thing is, I want to keep going. And maybe this is sort of the beginner's mindset. It's like, how do you, like once you've started and you get the good feeling, because I get the good feeling.

30:45 Like obviously I've run once. I get the good feeling. I get the validation from my friend who I've told that I've done it. But now I'm not continuing doing it. Mm-hmm. So scientifically speaking, if there is research on this, why do I not keep going? I think we can think about this in terms of habit formation.

31:02 And again, back to the way we're training our brains and the information, like that avoidance that we've kind of developed as a society away from tolerating discomfort. So instinctively, if it's uncomfortable, you're not going to be drawn to do it unless you really work on that as a principle that you are going to go against the grain.

31:23 You've got to teach yourself a new habit, essentially. And society is not going to help you with this because it is geared the other way now. It's true. In reality, like I know we're laughing and joking around with you, right? But it's almost like. With me, with me. With you, with you. But it's almost like.

31:38 In a funny way, I guess I was just being the voice there of society, which is like society's not going to reward anyone. Like essentially no one cares what you do. It has to become an internal motivation, doesn't it? Because like society's not ever going to, like unless you literally win a gold medal at the Olympics or something, like that's what, you can't ever get into it because you want to be the best.

32:00 Because... there's only going to be one best. So is it about finding that intrinsic reason for you why you will continuously hop back in the fire? Yeah, absolutely. Again, that comes to that concept of the story we tell ourselves, but it also taps into something else, which is identity. And I think that's a worthwhile thing for us to think about.

32:17 But I worry for kids that, in a sense, if we're saying that something's changed, right, in terms of the way we think about our reward systems and the way we're motivated from even when we grew up, You know, it was more normal, let's say, when we grew up to persist and stick at something. It was, wasn't it?

32:34 I feel like that was something that you were just, your parents insisted so you learnt. You just did it. Well, finally enough. I mean, it's what we're talking about with the choir. Yeah. Like, we didn't know you could not do it. We didn't know you could fast forward. That might be a negative example.

32:47 We didn't know you could fast forward out of it. So, in a weird way, you got the benefits of sticking at something. Exactly. Because... quitting it wasn't on the table. I practiced piano 30 minutes every day before school for my whole school life. Wow. And that, I just thought that was normal. Like I just, it's just what I did because I had piano lessons and my teacher told me to do it, so I did it.

33:09 But in terms of identity, I worry for kids now. that they're getting less opportunity to build a kind of relationship with something that would be very meaningful to them because they're not persisting. So these are, you know, what we might call anchor points for us. Like they help life feel meaningful.

33:23 They give us purpose. You know, you have direction because, well, firstly, I feel a great kind of association with this thing and I'm proud of it and can show people my progress. But also it gives me hope because, okay, well, there's this like future that I can imagine now with that thing by my side.

33:39 And, you know, again, like all adults listening to this are probably going, yeah, that's this and this and this for me. And it's nice to have a little cross section of those and be open to new ones like you, Orion. You know, that's really healthy. I think the word persist is a great, I think that's an important one because it's, You know, we're talking about athletic achievements and stuff, and often they're referred to as endurance sports.

34:02 But what we're talking about, whether it is a piano or a skill or anything in life, like enduring is probably the wrong word because enduring, like in the case, there's some level of endurance. Discomfort that isn't healthy, but persistence, there is discomfort, but it's like there's a joyfulness to persistence where you choose to keep going because you love the process of keeping going.

34:23 Absolutely. They almost should be called persistence sports because, you know, the people that I know that do these things that run Ironmans or, you know, like go on crazy adventures. Because they like the persistence element. They're not like, I hate this, get me out of here. There's an art to welcoming the discomfort and continuing anyway.

34:44 Well, this is where I guess we can think about the reward being so much deeper than something like a short-term fix of dopamine is ever going to give you, which is something far more deep and satisfying about your meaning and purpose and sense of who you are in the world. That's much bigger than any kind of immediate reward could give or not give.

35:02 But yeah, again, just back to that problem, I guess, of kids not necessarily gaining those skills. If they are going to miss out, I really worry about that in terms of, again, the rise of anxiety, loneliness, depression. Or where is that sense of meaning going to come from? It's not impossible, but I think it's harder without those things that we acquire through perseverance and practice.

35:21 So is it important for, again, with kids to help them find the why in something to give them that persistence? Yeah. I think you've already touched on it. There's something really good about changing the story and helping them embrace this idea that society is not going to help you with this. Right. Everything at the moment is geared towards making you feel good now.

35:41 But that's actually in large part because people want to sell you things, not because they're interested in your mental health. Yeah. So if you're interested in feeling really good as a person, sticking at this is not about the end product of becoming amazing at it, like whoever you've seen on YouTube.

35:57 Yeah. It feels incredible to give it a try and keep trying and do that with other people. Yes. So that we're getting that human connection. We've got that sense of actually not being good at it is something to be proud of because I'm working at it. Yeah. Only one person is the GOAT. Right. And the rest are just doing it.

36:14 We're in the pack. Taking that pressure off the table. And even LeBron James is arguably not the GOAT. There's this ongoing debate. It's like, is LeBron James the goat or is Michael Jordan the goat? It's like, you're LeBron James and people aren't even giving it to you. There's a hint there that that's not the point.

36:33 It's not achievable. Yeah. So the reason I suppose we're talking about the beginner's mindset and the reason we do... When we're a kid, it's all beginner's mindset because it's the first time we've done everything. And then as we get older, we do shy away from that. But part of the beginner's mindset seems to be the avoidance of the discomfort.

36:53 Yep. When is it okay? When is it a good avoidance? And when is it okay to push back into that avoidance, I suppose, with kids? You know what I mean? Yeah. Because there's obviously sometimes our avoidance is healthy. Yes. We have it for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. When do we push them back in to the discomfort and when is it good to pull out?

37:11 Yeah, such a good question. The sense that you're right, we do absolutely need our anxiety around discomfort because sometimes there is a genuine safety risk and it's very problematic. And you could even argue if we dial that back from kind of a life or death threat to just a skill that we want to acquire that ultimately maybe we're not suited to.

37:32 You know, that's a reality too. So there is a point at which perhaps acceptance or avoidance is an okay thing. But I guess the problem becomes if we have to think about how we're training the brain at any given point, and kids we know have enormous capacity for learning, enormous capacity for neuroplasticity and adaptation, right?

37:51 But if we're training to avoid discomfort as a kind of primary defense mechanism and it's broad sweeping and kind of across everything because we can't be that expert we want to be straight away, that's going to become a primary way of managing life. Yeah. So if you think about the implications of that, if that becomes the kind of building blocks that we're stacking early, that's going to be really problematic when it comes to stepping out with confidence to try new things like going for that job or meeting that person or connecting with that person that would create that opportunity that might lead to that next big thing.

38:25 You know, you can see how it quickly might create, you know, a real lack of opportunity to flourish. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that really resonates with me. Like I feel like so much of my – I had so little discomfort as a kid and sort of consciously or unconsciously avoided it as a kid and just didn't like being uncomfortable and so tried to stay very safe and make choices that would keep me safe, I guess, and not take risks.

38:55 And then as an adult now, I'm almost having to learn how to lean into the discomfort now, knowing that it'll be really, really good for me and it will actually make me feel great. Yeah. But it's just not inherently in me. Yeah. To seek discomfort. And it's hard, isn't it, when the building blocks aren't quite there.

39:14 So we talked about this in our very first Imperfects chat together around the wonky bricks idea. Yeah, of course. So for those that haven't heard that episode, we talked about that there are these big fundamental ideas we learn about life early. In psychology, we call those schemas. And if you think of like a pyramid of building who you are, they're the big foundation stones.

39:33 So if you are kind of internalizing a concept like trying things doesn't work out for me or that's too hard, that discomfort is not good and I don't want it or, you know, anything similar like that in terms of learning a new skill. And that becomes the basis of how you think about yourself, what you're capable of and what your future is going to be.

39:51 That's a very problematic concept. foundation stone to have in your identity. Yeah. And it speaks to how challenging this is. And so that's the problem. But in terms of how do we address that and what level of, you know, avoidance do we accept? Yep. I think we can say to our kids that it's okay to have some.

40:08 It is okay to not feel good and sometimes to say no to that. Yep. But we definitely can't do that for everything. And if we notice there's a pattern of kind of avoiding any kind of discomfort, well, that's what I'm going to push back against. You've got to choose something. In fact, you've got to choose a few things and I'm going to help you and we're going to break it down and we're going to enjoy the process.

40:26 You can't say no to everything, but you are allowed to choose. There is wiggle room here. And kids surprise you, don't they? Like in terms of what they come up with and what they choose. But we've got to give them room to do that. Totally. And not just accept that we just watch TV all the time or that we just, you know, go to the easiest thing all the time.

40:43 We have to create room for, well, friction maxing. We've got to have a go at that, of sitting with discomfort. As we turn into adults, as we get older... And I suppose it becomes more challenging because our parents, we don't have someone there guiding us through. Now it's like, now it becomes intrinsic.

41:02 Like, do you choose it? Do you not choose it? And it becomes, it's on you now as an adult. Yeah. What happens to the brain as you get older in terms of what happens to us with discomfort and how effective it is to push ourselves back into it? So naturally, as we get older, of course, we start to solidify some of our beliefs about the world, our sense of who we are, our sense of what we're good at.

41:26 It gets narrower. And we know that around 25, the brain's capacity for rapid learning starts to slow down a little bit and becomes a little more concrete. Not completely. There is still neuroplasticity there and, you know, still capacity to learn as your show is teaching us. But it is more limited. And therefore, we might find ourselves a bit more stuck in our ways and a bit more unwilling to try new things.

41:50 So it's a wonderful thing to remember as adults. to show our kids modeling is so critically important that we're willing to do it as well and have a go at stepping into the unknown and things we're not that good at, uh, because that's the, that's the best teacher. We're willing to be shit. Right. Yeah.

42:07 Yeah. It's a, it's a funny one that I feel like I've probably gone too far on this. And so my kids probably think I'm useless and cannot believe, but I'm always telling about my mistakes. Like I stopped this up and I got this wrong. I mean, cause I really want them to, to know mistakes are okay. I've definitely gone too far and I think I'm, A fumbling idiot, but it's, but I think that's a really big part of it as well.

42:26 It's like modeling that it's, it's definitely okay to make mistakes. And we have to retrain ourselves around that too, because that same cultural momentum we talked about for kids, we're all susceptible to it and we're all living in it. So yeah, it's really normal to kind of not want to do it. But if we remind ourselves it's worth it and it's healthier and there's something deeper and richer on offer if we do.

42:48 I was at the Nets the other day with my son who decided he was going to just bowl in swingers just randomly. I would be able to do it now. And he wasn't able to shape the ball back in to the right hand up. Wouldn't have been a reverse swing. No, that's true. And he just got really angry. And then that became very distressing for me because I wasn't angry, but I was just sad.

43:08 I was going, how is that? Why does he think that this is a skill he needs to have right now? It takes so long to do this. So how do you deal with anger when that comes up for a child when they can't perform a skill straight away? Yep. So what an understandable feeling from both of you, because we so desperately want for our kids to try and to give things a go.

43:28 And when we see them going straight to that sense of frustration, it's very natural and understandable that you will also feel a bit of that. So you're speaking to the kind of fundamentals of emotional intelligence here. And the wonderful Dr. Billy Garvey talks about co-regulating with our kids. Yes.

43:43 Which is such an important thing to remember that we note what we're feeling. We pay attention to what they're feeling. And then it's time for the strategy. Do I deal with this now in the midst of this feeling and sit down with them and... We acknowledge what we're feeling together and create connection and understanding and validation around that.

44:00 Or give them a few minutes or even a day, let the feeling settle and then come back to it again. But yeah, paying attention to what we're feeling and labeling that is really important. It's normal. It's healthy to have feelings. There's no problem with that at all. But it's when we're acting without awareness of what we're feeling and kind of launching in and that frustration kind of choosing our words for us or making our decisions for us that we know we can make it worse and escalate the situation further.

44:27 Yeah. I mean, I sometimes like when I'm with the kids, like most of the time getting frustrated is when I realized I've unconsciously had a script in my head of how this should go. Yeah. Instead of just letting it be what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I sometimes think about my internal patience meter, you know, and it's like so much taps into, you know, how much sleep I've had and what kind of day I've had and how many people are frustrated me today.

44:53 And, you know, we're bringing that, you know, whether we realize it or not into the moment. And we've got this set of expectations, as you say, about how things should go or will go. And when they go on their own journey and say no or put their foot down and you know it would be good for them. It's like if you just do this thing, it's going to be good for you.

45:09 That's the hardest part. Right? Yeah. You're kind of blocking off the opportunity for the happy accident. Yeah, totally. And you may not have much in the tank. So you just go to that place of frustration really quickly because you're exhausted. You want the best for them. They're not making the choice that you know would be better.

45:23 But if we just sit with it and go, okay, trying new things is hard. We all know that we're asking them to step into discomfort. If they're triggered into a place of frustration, there's so many factors contributing to that. And my frustration, same deal. So just sit with it, notice it, label it, and acknowledge it to yourself.

45:42 And you can even say to them, I'm so sorry that I got frustrated there. You don't have to go into your full day, but just to kind of give them a sense of what's going on for you. And I never meant for you to cop that. But tell me about your frustration. What are you feeling and why? And what's going on for you?

45:59 Let's try again tomorrow. And that's the really good thing to remember. Before we give up on something or allow them to say, I quit. I'm never doing it again. Give it a day. Just give it one day. Let the feeling settle. Talk about it. Try again. And maybe we can think about it a new way. I'm not sure who said it, but there's that thing where it's like, okay, you're allowed to quit, but you can't quit when you're angry.

46:18 Yeah, that's it. That's it. It's a good strategy to remember. And that's where we can introduce concepts like, you know, the small win or, you know, just let's just try and get to here. We just need to get creative, but we can only do that when we're calm. It's better to have a plan and going in rather than try and react in the moment when we're emotional.

46:36 That brings up scaffolding for me. So the idea that, so for example, for our neurodivergent child, their aim was to go to camp this year and the build up to it has been a huge ramp up in their anxiety and their school refusal stuff. But we had to stay near the camp. We had to pick them up at certain times to get them back there.

46:56 Um, but they did it, but they did two days. They did all the activities, didn't stay overnight. Um, and that sort of scaffolding like as in creating, giving them, um, we can sort of explain scaffolding better than I can, I guess. No, you're doing it now. Yeah. It's good. Could you do it? Oh, okay. I'll do it.

47:15 I think I'd prefer Ryder do it. Actually, I would like James to do it. I thought you were on a really good run there. No, you do scaffolding. No, it's lovely. I was about to just agree with you. I mean, yeah, you're setting up the kind of variables around the young person to make it feel safe. Yeah. And then it was a big thing of celebrating what they did do.

47:34 Yes. And it was not like... Because I could tell their brain was going to, but I didn't stay over. And that was the big thing with camp. But it was... Yeah, that's such a hard thing too. Because life's so often not just, you know, win-lose binary. It's like it's a jumble of things. And, you know, you did seven things great.

47:51 And let's not worry about the other three things out of ten. You know, yeah. What... How do we deal with that with kids too? It's like you want to bring them back to celebrating the successes, even though sometimes when kids get anxious or, you know, they can focus on the negative of what they didn't achieve.

48:07 Yeah. I mean, it's there, isn't it? It's like we're so attuned to pass fail as the metric by which we judge ourselves. But if we can start to remember that we've got to talk about that process and that skill acquisition is incremental and it's bit by bit. And they did. They achieved a number of things that were hard and stepped into discomfort.

48:28 And that was the level they were able to get to this time. And that's amazing. And they will be able to build on that. So it is a win. Yeah. But the thing that makes that really challenging, and I'm not saying this is your child's story at all, Hugh, because I can see how scaffolding is like so important, but you can't scaffold for every situation and being successful, famous, rich, whatever.

48:49 Yeah. That actually, you said there's bad research around that as well in terms of happiness, connection with happiness. But it's so hard not to get seduced by that. Or as a kid, if you're being told it's all about effort, just have fun, enjoy the process. But then Billy is really good at the same thing you're trying and he's getting all, he's popular.

49:10 And it's so hard in a practical sense to not be seduced by that. That's a really good point. And we need to put this in the context of what's realistic. It comes to mind that you, I think you've heard of this before, the zone of proximal development, the viagogy concept. It's like there's this window within which kids are open to learning or actually anyone within which the challenge is just out ahead of our current skill set.

49:35 I was going to ask, is there a magic percentage? Because it just needs to be nearly there. Like it's that thing of like, Just close enough to stretch for it. It's the stretch goal. But not out of reach. So it's something realistic within reach that is just out ahead of our current skill level that doesn't feel impossible to acquire.

49:55 So if we break down big goals like become a... an athlete into, I'm just going to run this far today. Well, that feels manageable. I'll give that a shot that within the zone of proximal development, that would be an achievable stretch goal that you're motivated towards. And if it doesn't go very well, you're like, well, I can try again.

50:14 Maybe I'll bring the target back just a little bit. Yes. I'm not trying to be an expert. I'm just trying to get to that step. I was going to say one thing I learned from the show, and this reminded me of a few other things in life, is you have this end goal. Like, let's say, okay, there was like one episode where we have to weld a frame for a trailer.

50:31 You're like, okay, we don't... That's huge. And anytime you felt stuck, often the answer was... We're trying to get point A to point Z. Okay, well, I don't understand how to get to Z. Bring it back to point A to point K. I don't really understand that. And eventually your brain would get to a point where it was just A to B and you're trying to find that next achievable step.

50:52 And the trick almost of trying to do this show on Unskilled Outlook was like, Just keep making the next step achievable and to try and forget about the outcome. And I think that's when you think about like what we do with kids too, like sometimes we think we've given them an achievable next step. Yeah.

51:11 but we really maybe just have to find what we have to halve it or halve it again. It might be the case. Until it's a little stretch. I had like, I'm not saying this is the sort, but with my daughter, with, with Rue, we all were a bike riding family and we were like, this is fun. We love bike riding. And when she was little, she'd go on the trailer and then we'd be like, all right, now, you know, it's time for you to join the, join the gang.

51:33 And same thing. She's like, well, I don't like it. It's not because it was too much of a stretch. And also it was a bad way for us to frame it. Cause we'd been like, Hey, we can all do it. And this is happening. This is happening. And so, of course, you encounter, she's like, well, I'm not immediately there.

51:48 So this sucks. And she's been resisting a bit. found like a secondhand, like a balance bike that had a little e-bike engine in it. And so there was no pedaling involved because I was like, I think the pedaling is the annoying part for her. And she was way too big for this stage. It was like if this was like for five-year-olds, but, you know, it was this tiny little thing, bought it like on sale and was like secondhand and she could sit on it and just zoom around on it.

52:14 And it kind of gave her like woohoos. Like it was the thrill of bike riding without the annoyance of pedaling. And now she's in an e-bike gang and actually just got arrested in Cronulla last night. So a bit of a shame, but it was a gateway drug. But it was that thing of like going, okay, we've got to rethink this a bit.

52:32 Because we've got to want her to experience some blue hoesies. Well, you've given her a small win. And it was about trying to find that next step. That's great. And I think... You know, there's been lots of times where I haven't figured that out. But in terms of bike riding, in terms of speaking about bike riding, Hugh and I went to a great place, you know, Pods Ride down in Tasmania.

52:49 Yeah, yeah. So amazing place down in this town called Darby in Tasmania. Like it's a mountain bike town. And I've got a great mate down there. Stephen runs this cool thing called Pods. And that's their philosophy is they take people mountain biking. They've never done it before on these amazing trails through this like old growth forest.

53:08 And I think it was actually Steve that put this in my mind that was like, it's like about 5% is if you're stretching about 5% past your comfort zone, that's the flow state. That whole thing is about entering a space of flow. And it's always stuck with me because I'm like, I don't know if there's science behind that, but it feels like about 5% outside your comfort zone is where you're not so terrified.

53:31 It's impossible. That was my run. 5%? Yeah. Yeah, it was. I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing to strive for because it's sort of like 5% more effort than you're used to is about, seems to be about the maths. Yeah, that feels intuitively about right, doesn't it? Yeah. And it's tapping into another concept that is fundamental in psychology and that's in how we treat anxiety.

53:52 And that's graduated exposure. Like we actually, the best way to treat anxiety in general is like little bit by little bit, expose ourself to a manageable amount of distress and discomfort so that we can train and teach the brain, I'm safe and I'm okay. So it's a similar concept here in terms of skill acquisition.

54:10 We need to have a safe and manageable amount of discomfort that we can feel better Okay about it. It's like, this doesn't feel good, but I'm okay. I'm not unsafe. I'm not, my identity is not going to fall out from under me. And also I can see the skill I want to acquire just over there. It's not too far away.

54:27 The goal here is, is not impossible. So does that, does that dispel the thing that you're often told to jump in the deep end? It does a bit. Yeah. I mean, jumping in the deep end can have its merits sometimes if you have the capacity and it's just overcoming the feeling and that's going to work out well.

54:46 But that also risks flooding and overwhelming. That's what would happen on our show a lot. Right. Because the whole point is we're in at the deep end straight away. And then, but it was interesting because, you know, I saw it eight times across eight different episodes. Everyone behaves similarly, but different depending on their appetite for discomfort.

55:07 So, so if you're outside the zone of proximal development and you flooded and overwhelmed, unfortunately what can happen is it builds your narrative of intolerance of that thing. And in fact, it becomes scarier. And you're still teaching everyone anyway. It's still very important. I mean, there's a few moments in the show that are really honest.

55:24 Like there's one where we open up the job and Brett McKenzie, who's my love from Flight of the Conchords, like we open up the envelope, like, okay, this is the job. We're reading through it. And then he just says, like, you know, in a beautiful, like kind of Brett way, he's like, this is... too hard for us.

55:38 Right. It's like they've got the wrong people. Like we can't do this. And it's like that is what everyone's brain thinks as soon as they see it. And then the game becomes for the next few days like, all right, how do we bite this down into tiny? Well, that's it. And that's where I think you are doing it because, okay, yeah, while the initial thing sounds really hard and maybe in a sense it is because the timeframe is for television rather than.

55:59 It's always doable. Like we always had jobs that were possible. Right. Yeah. But breaking it down into tasks is exactly what we want to do. Totally. With young people and for ourselves. Yeah. I just want to go back a little bit. So at the start of the interview, and it's become quite a relevant point now, you said that the director of the Australian Boys Choir, who always said to you when you tried to quit, well, you can't, and you'll be a quitter if you do that.

56:19 And how did that feel for you in that moment? Yeah, this might be a bit of a therapy session now because I'm going back into a traumatic memory. But it felt horrible. Honestly, it was such a shock, actually, to hear a person of authority, an adult, say that. Did you believe him? Oh, it felt terrible.

56:36 I felt really judged. But also I remember having built myself up to that moment and it took courage and assertiveness to speak up to an adult. And I, as you mentioned, you know, you felt guilty about the idea of quitting because it's like, I have to do this thing, don't I? I'm in this choir, I've been given this prestigious position.

56:52 So, I mean, it's an interesting one because we are talking about not quitting. Yeah. Yeah. But there's obviously very, you know, it's the border of like healthy ways to not quit versus, you know, that's using shame as a tool. There you go. To stop someone doing something. Exactly. Which just immediately.

57:08 His goal in that moment was to make me feel bad. Yeah. He achieved his goal. And yeah, it did feel bad. And it probably for a while shook my confidence. I don't quite remember the outcome, but I imagine it did, you know, in terms of speaking up and being assertive with adults. I think the fact that you remember it all these years later.

57:23 Yeah. It says a lot. It says a lot. It does. It does. So it's a good lesson, isn't it? That we have to constantly think about what is our intention about what we want a young person to learn in any given situation. And that it is okay to quit at times. And sometimes it's better to persist. But we have to think, where are they at in terms of their capacity and what they're telling me and how honest they're being?

57:43 And maybe this is a time to validate and say, that's okay. You don't have to do that thing. That's fine. We'll try something else. especially when dealing with kids, what does psychology say? I mean, you've got, you know, I'm sure it kind of comes down to motivation and how to motivate a child to not necessarily do something but see something a different way.

58:03 That's probably more from like the drill sergeant playbook, which is just like screaming them and tell them their shit and like that's how you motivate someone to mould them into something. Yeah. Like what do we know now in psychology that is actually effective for kids in that situation? Yeah, the tough love approach, while it traditionally was very popular, there's not a lot of great evidence around that being motivational or, you know, helping kids change their mind.

58:29 In fact, they're more likely to dig their heels in, push back, if you bring that kind of energy. And it might also be disruptive to your relationship, you know, and require some repair. So while at times, as a parent, it's almost inevitable, at times you'll put your foot down. I think of getting ready for school in the morning is a good example.

58:46 where that comes into play, but it's very rarely effective. So I think we can just think about it from that point of view, that tough love, while it may have its place sometimes, is rarely an evidence-based effective means of persuasion. When it dips into shame, I would say it's just never the play. Correct.

59:01 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's right. And that comes back to that self-awareness and emotional intelligence to recognize how we're feeling and what our intention is in this interaction. What do we want the young person to actually feel and learn? Mm-hmm. Well, James, it's been so special to have you today.

59:15 I think it was just very serendipitous that I missed your incredible show. I watched Ryan's episode last night. I've never laughed so much in my entire life. I cannot wait to watch it multiple times again. Thank you for having me on your show, Ryan. It really is. That episode is just the raw show. You can just watch me in complete meltdown and just trying to act cool.

59:35 And before we let you go, your new TV show that you are now a part of. Well, it's not my TV show, but yes, I am on one, which is very exciting and very strange. Yeah, this is incredibly surreal. But yeah. What is it? Where is it? So I can't get into the specifics of it just yet. I haven't been given permission because... Oh, it's I'm a slab.

59:52 Yeah. He's in the jungle. Oh my God. I'm a psychologist. Get me out of here. No, it's The Apprentice. I've taken over from Donald Trump. No, this is a beautiful show all about helping kids make friends. Oh, I love that. And it is the most delightful thing in the world. So this whole concept at the moment of perseverance and grit is very dear to my heart because that's really what this show is about.

1:00:13 Yeah. And helping little kids give them strategies to help them make friends. It's going to be out early next year. It is on a major British broadcasting network. Awesome. But I can't say which one. That is so, what a beautiful thing to do. Because, yes, as we all know for anyone that's got kids, like, man, the difference of a best friend or a good friend in a kid's life is, it's just something parents can't.

1:00:37 Yeah. can't replicate. And I say that sitting across from my oldest one who changed my life in Rye and one of my other best ones to my left, that hasn't put in as many years, but he's doing all right at the moment. In Hugh, the power of a great mate is, that's amazing. Well, this, it was the most surreal experience because really I'm on the show as a psychologist, me and one other person.

1:00:57 So I was really just doing my day job, but the difference is this time I would do my day job. And if it went well, a whole room of people cheered, which I've never had in my life. We get that all the time. How good is it? You've got to get into comedy. It's very hard to go back to normal psychology. Yeah, our audience is great.

1:01:10 Nobody cheers. But, yeah, you're the perfect co-host for today, Hamish. So thank you for joining us. Thank you. I love it. Thanks, James. I love listening to you. So great. Thank you. Yeah, James, I always, I mean, I feel very lucky I can pick up the phone and call you whenever, but to chat to you in this format is just wonderful.

1:01:25 If you could leave us your phone number, then if anyone needs your help in the future, then they can call you. Yeah. 24-7. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, they can contact Engage One-on-One Psychology if they'd like to have a chat to me. Engage One-on-One Psychology. They are welcome to do that. And we have a wonderful team.

1:01:41 What generally happens when I come and be a guest on this show is we get inundated with calls, which speaks more about you guys, I think, than it does about me. I don't think that's true. But so just, you know, the director has asked me to say in advance, we have a wonderful team and I'm not the only psychologist on the team.

1:01:56 You're not guaranteed to get James. But we'd love to hear from you. The amount of people who've swapped me in the street to say, oh, James is now my psychologist and you've changed their lives. So it's very special what you do, James, and thank you for joining us today. Oh, such a pleasure. Thanks for having me back.

1:02:09 Thank you, mate. Hello, George. Hello, Josh. Great to see you. You just had to get into the episode, didn't you? I did. Yeah. I was chomping at the bit to get up onto the table and here I am. I'm here to talk about the newsletter. And for those of you who are signed up to the newsletter, every week you get a newsletter that's inspired by that week's episode.

1:02:33 And within that, there's a question that we put to people for them to reflect on their own imperfect lives. Mm-hmm. So it becomes a bit like a journaling club for those who want to respond and send it in to us. But you're here to talk about it. And what is this week's question? Yeah, this week's question is, what are you trying to be a beginner at?

1:02:50 Great question. I actually like that word, trying to be a beginner, because I'm not trying to be an expert. I'm just trying to start. Yeah, it gives you permission to start to be a beginner. It's also, I think, good to acknowledge that being a beginner can be really hard. Like I reckon I've struggled with it my whole life because I've just wanted to be like perfect at something from the start.

1:03:07 Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that probably says that there'll be a lot for people to reflect about in this week's email. Yeah. What are you beginning at? I'm beginning at running. I'm beginning running. Awesome. I'm a beginner at running. I did my first ever park run on the weekend. Unreal. The great thing about park runs, I reckon, is it's like built on beginner's mindset.

1:03:28 Yeah. So at the start, they do a little welcome. They say, anyone here brand new? Anyone ever done a park run before? I put my hand up and I got a round of applause. Yeah. Oh, how nice. That sounds best to my ask to do that. And I was like, oh, wow, this is so welcoming. That'd be awesome if every time you began to do something, you got a round of applause.

1:03:44 It was great. Yeah. So I don't know if I'll go back next week, actually. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm not going to get there. So if anyone out there wants to reflect on something they're beginning at, they can sign up either by using the link in the show notes today or you can go to theimperfects.com.au and sign up to my Imperfect email and join the club.

1:04:06 Yeah, join the club. This show was made in the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurrung people and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.