“MND Took Everything” Matt Nable on Grief, Depression & What Really Matters

0:01 The way he passed away, you wouldn't wish on anyone. With motor neuron disease, the only thing that he could move in the end were his eyebrows. So it took everything. That experience shapes a perspective in life that otherwise I don't think I would ever have. For years, Matt Nabel has played the tough guy on our screens.

0:24 Where's my fucking money? I got brought up in a very physical environment. My father was in the army. My dad studied accountancy, so I absolutely understood where you're coming from. But personally speaking, I wouldn't categorise myself as a tough man. I'm a man who's hugely flawed. You know, I'm a son, brother, a friend, a partner, a father.

0:47 And beyond those things for me, it's all fluff. For Matt, real toughness is confronting his own struggles. Masculinity for me is being vulnerable. You know, I've had some really bad bouts of depression, which I feel ironically really grateful for. One day I saw this boy in a school uniform, a little brown-haired boy, and he turned around, he was crying, it was me.

1:12 Oh, my God. So he ran to me and I helped him. We've been doing this podcast for a long time, which I've had to a lot of people. I don't think anything's moving me like that. Well, lock up your Oscars. We've got an actor in here and a good one. I think they're safe, the Oscars. Yeah, don't speak too soon.

1:40 Don't speak too soon. You never know, Matt. No, that's true. No. We're joined by Matt and Abel. Now, I'm not sure I've ever met anyone with a CV quite like yours before. You truly are one of one. Rugby league player, boxer, novelist. I can see how that transition happens. Screenwriter, actor, director.

2:07 But as unique as your CV is, so too is the stories you've accumulated over your life. The things that you are so uniquely positioned to talk about today. Yeah. masculinity, toughness, bipolar, hitting rock bottom, the devastating impact of MND, grief, dementia, love, Robert De Niro. I feel like Hugh's just making it really easy to do the hashtags for this episode.

2:37 There's a lot going on. What do you feel like in your life has had the most profound impact on who you are right now? My family, you know, we're a very close sort of mob group. My father was in the army and so every two years we moved. There were five of us, five kids, my mum and dad, and they were young parents.

3:04 I think my mum had – she had five kids under the age of seven when she was 27. So it was a different era. And so dad was a soldier and every two years we picked up and moved. And so we as siblings had each other and that was – a big part in how we've evolved as people, as parents, as fathers, as friends and sons.

3:33 And that early period of my life has really sort of carved out who I am. So you play rugby league at the top level, very successful boxer. They're things that we look at and go, well, this is a tough guy. Mm-hmm. Do you feel like a tough person? And if so, what is it that do you think has made you tough?

3:55 You know, they're physical things, you know. So I got brought up in a very physical environment. My father was a – he was the – head what they call physical training instructor in the army. So he was a very well-respected man. He was the top non-commissioned officer. So that's a really high-respected mantle and position.

4:20 Yeah. My dad studied accountancy, so I absolutely understood where you're coming from. So we – and there were, look, five of us, two boys, my sister, my poor sister in the middle, and then two boys. My father was a really handy professional fighter, really good. He didn't foist it upon us. I mean, we just grew up in gymnasiums and – were tumbling and, and, you know, watching him work.

4:48 And so we had boxing gloves on at a very, very early age. And I think as young, young boys, particularly young boys, you're just trying to gain the approval of such a sharp outline of such a, a strong sort of person to aspire to. So yeah, We got involved in boxing and rugby league and those pursuits, you need a physical toughness.

5:16 But personally speaking, along with that, you had to be mentally tough as well. So when I played rugby league, I remember Jack Gibson, who was a famous coach, came to talk to us when I was a young fella in some rugby league camp and he said, you've got to be very careful how you use that word and what tough is and what it is.

5:36 When I was a young fella, we were all Bondi lifesavers and he said there was a huge surf one day and there were a young family caught out the back and he said there was a guy who was a lifesaver with us who also played for Eastern Suburbs and he said who we regarded as soft surfers. and not tough and not courageous.

5:56 And he said not one of us were courageous or gutsy enough to go out and save those people. He said, but that guy, he went out and saved their lives. So the lesson was toughness and courage is relative in the sense if you've trained to do something your whole life, then the level of courage and toughness that it takes to compete is diminished by how good you are at it.

6:20 I know I remember talking to a... I did a show called Gallipoli talking to a major there and he was a historian and he said, what true courage and what true bravery is is what these 16-year-old kids and 15-year-old kids did at Gallipoli. They had no training and they were whistled out to go out of the trenches, not thinking they would hurt their knee or break their arm, that they were most likely going to die.

6:49 That's courage. That's what toughness is. In the realm of sport, if you train and you're proficient at something, then, like I said, the level of courage that it takes to sort of do that is diminished by just how long you've been doing it. And tough is, you know, I can look at people and go, geez, he's tough, like he's courageous, he's tough on the field or in boxing.

7:12 But in life, it's really, really different. So do I see myself as tough? I see myself as... Like I would cry every day. You know, at least once a day I'll have a cry. It could be about anything. And that actually makes me feel good. So, you know, people would, you know, look at that traditionally speaking and say, well, that's not tough.

7:31 That's not – and I honestly don't care. And I don't look at myself – or judge myself on, you know, am I tough or am I courageous or, you know, I'm beyond all that. And look, to be honest, growing up, it was such a big thing, you know, to be recognised that way. That did matter when I was younger. But no, I, you know, I'd seen myself as a...

7:59 a hugely empathetic person. Um, and I look at the world a little differently, but through the prism of, you know, I've, I've had some really bad bouts of depression and, and I'm over this thing bipolar too. So, which I feel, you know, ironically really grateful for. Um, uh, but that's also made me, uh, I wouldn't categorise myself as a tough man.

8:26 You know, I'm a man who's hugely flawed and he's worked really, really hard to get where he's now at. Do you think it's tricky because I'm thinking about my own life and the question of toughness and courage and I feel like I've often found myself as I was growing up trying to work out who I was as a person and as a man and found myself lacking in areas of toughness and courage and therefore seeing myself as lacking.

8:57 It took me to get a stronger sense of who I am as a person to be okay with that. The way you talk about vulnerability, do you think it's possible to get there without having a strong sense of self? I think it comes down to life experience, you know, and I think something innately as well you're sort of born with.

9:15 Like I was a bit of a melancholic kid at different stages and I think that I was sort of born that way, you know, and I think vulnerability comes in many forms and people show it in different ways and in fact allow themselves to be vulnerable in certain situations with certain groups of people. I just think it's hard when you haven't had life experiences where you've – in a situation where you've got to reflect.

9:45 And I think that reflection and growth builds vulnerability. I think you get to a point in life where it gets so hard at different stages that you're like, I've just got to talk about this or I need someone to listen to what I'm feeling. For me, it's helped. And, you know, these dickheads that are over in the manosphere and those morons, you know, that do nothing for men in general, who are shameful, you know, no time for those people whatsoever.

10:20 They don't represent masculine men whatsoever. Not one bit. masculinity for me is being vulnerable in the right spaces with the right people when you're trying to impart lessons or teach to be a protector to know that your family, I've got you you're safe, you don't have to worry at all, I'm here and then in and around relationships with other men a masculine man for me is letting them know I've got your back and that you can talk to me that is what a man is.

10:54 You know, those things that you exhibit where you're helping or you're teaching and it's didactic, that's what masculinity is to me. Where I was 10 years ago to where I am now, very, very different. 10, 15 years ago, I was full of ego and that might not have manifested in a way that people would have picked up on, but it was happening internally.

11:19 Hey, Hugh and Josh, you know how like with magazines, you can either go to the shop and when there's one there, you just buy one. And then you go like, oh, hang on. There's the option to subscribe to this magazine. So it just comes to me automatically without me having to go to the shop. But did you know, guys, that that exact same concept also exists with podcasts and YouTube channels?

11:41 You can subscribe. And if you subscribe, then the episodes just come to you without you having to do anything. Yeah. We love doing this and we want to keep doing it for a long time and we want it to do the best we possibly can. And it really helps us. Go to subscribe.com. What's happened in the last 10 to 15 years, do you think, that has... Mate, you know, lots of things.

12:01 Just reflection, being a father, you know, and then losing, you know, the years when they're so young because it's so fleeting. You know, when you're in it, you're like... When are they going to bed? And I wasn't present enough. And so when you reflect on that and you are where I am now and I'm hugely envious of when I see parents with little kids, their regrets.

12:34 So regret comes into it and you go, okay, well, that's – I don't want to feel like that again. And also, you know, experienced loss. I lost a brother. And perspective really, really sharpens about what life's about and where you are and what's important and what's not. And when I say, like, I really put my ego to bed, like it's gone, you know.

13:00 Wow. I think when you get older, self goes away. I mean, I've heard Robin Williams say that once. Self is gone and it becomes about others. And when you realize that and when that actually happens, it's a real emancipating feeling. You're like, oh, my God, this is really what it's all about. But I had my head so far up my own backside for periods of that time where I just couldn't acknowledge any of that.

13:25 And like I said, it just sort of manifested in ways that I'm regretful for. Do you mind me asking, you mentioned your brother, loss of your brother there, I mean that. Do you mind me asking you about your brother? Yeah, look, he was the baby with us, so he's the last born of five. And he was a sook, you know, like as a young fellow and an anxious kid.

13:57 juxtaposed with this immense, you're talking about physical toughness. Aaron was one of the greatest amateur boxers this country's ever had. Like he was exceptional. So he was this anxious, scared boy, juxtaposed with this immense courage and toughness. And so when he got sick, he was diagnosed with motor neuron disease in July of 2022.

14:22 So you had these two things working against each other. You got this... boy still a boy who's terrified of dying and anxious and i mean you had this man who was the ability to withstand pain and adapt and and fight worked against each other so that he the way he passed away uh we still deal with you know like he died um in my parents' home.

14:54 And when I say the only thing that he could move in the end were his eyebrows, then that's all he could move. So it took everything. And that was hard for us to watch because with motor neuron disease, you know, it's... bit by bit plateau and then they lose this and in the end, to see him the way he was as a family, we were like, we would say to each other, mate, not to him, but we'd make, give in enough.

15:27 Like, let go, mate. and he just wouldn't and so to see that was like I said those two things in his personality that to work against each other to get him where he got to I mean we the doctor Dominic Rowe who's a hero um They brought him in. It was eight months before he actually passed. He had collapsed lung and Dominic got us in and he said, I don't think he's going to get out of here.

15:59 He may not get out of here. So we're going to go to him and we're going to tell him that, that I'm going to tell him that and that we can make him comfortable and he can go to a room tomorrow and we can... Anyway, so we got on in and there were, you know, my mum and my dad and a sister, two other brothers.

16:22 And at that point he couldn't, his head had gone, so they're trying to hold his head up and he's connected to all these things and Dominic said, look, son, I don't think you're getting out of here. Um, so we can make you comfortable. And, and he just shook his head. He said, no. And, and for us, like you're talking, honestly, we were like, we were thinking relief, you know, he's, he's going to go.

16:51 And he, um, and he shook his head and, uh, He texted my mum, you know, I'll never give in. And he lived another eight months. Wow. But that was at home. You know, so what we witnessed, you wouldn't wish, you know, on anyone. You know, it just, it took everything. And he had, you know, three little boys.

17:18 So, yeah, that, that, that, that. That experience in itself, um, shapes a perspective in life that, that otherwise I don't think I would ever have, you know, he died and there were 2000 people at his funeral, um, I don't know anyone who's had that many people at their funeral. This is a state funeral.

17:39 And he was a wharfie. You know, he worked on the waterfront. Every person was there because he was such a good, kind, gentle man. You know, so I saw those things and I was like, well, they're the things you aspire to. You know, like five things. You come in as a son, you're a brother, a friend, a partner, and then you're a father.

18:06 it's all fluff. It's just bullshit. So there, and I've let myself down in those relationships over the years all the time, but I'm aware of them. I'm aware of what's important in my life and inevitably how people will see me are only through the lens of those five things. I learnt that watching what happened to him.

18:30 You know, so it was... Hugely traumatic. And that disease is, people need to be really, really aware that it's not a rare disease anymore. It was 1 in 500 people in 1985. It's now 1 in less than 200. So it's environmental. There's a... a heap of research suggesting that concussion and head knocks may trigger it.

18:59 And as it was in, my brother was in some really high risk environments. He was a green keeper, so he was around fertilisers and he was an elite sports person and he'd had a lot of head knocks. But unfortunately now at the moment there's just no cure for that. And I did some work with Bec Danaher and I did the slide with the big freeze for Neil and I've got a second cousin who has it.

19:27 I've got another really close mate who has it, Jai Arrow. I was going to ask you about Jai. I know Jai through concerts and stuff. He's great and he's showing immense courage and courage. But at the end of it, there is hope. They're working towards something that they're not going to reverse whatever's happened, but they're hoping that there's some sort of remedy where it can stop on its tracks and so that people can live with whatever it's ravaged already.

20:00 But yeah, I've been really vocal and active in that space because I just saw what it did to him. And what it did to, you know, the people that loved him and my family, like it's – I think my older brother at the moment is going through some – like a post-traumatic stress sort of situation, same with my sister.

20:24 And I can sort of feel that biting on, you know, tugging at my shirt that there's something I'm going to have to confront, you know, because at the moment I'm sort of pushing it away. But that had a profound effect on me personally on just, you know – What's important in life? And I did something in February last year.

20:45 I went and did a psilocybin retreat. And I was really skeptical of that. I mean, Aaron would say to me, you know, you should, even when he was sick, this would be good for you. And I was like, there's too many wormholes in my head. I was like, I don't know if I'm... Can you just give a quick explanation of what a psilocybin retreat is?

21:04 So that's the mushroom, psilocybin, and I was in a situation in a room up on the northern beaches and it's really well controlled with someone. A lot of music and a very calm space, very safe space. But at that point, like I was running towards it. I was like, I want, I need to do this. It was something, you know, to, to trigger.

21:30 I was, I was stuck in grief and that, That experience for me, it was profound. It was remarkably difficult because at certain points it doesn't tell you anything you don't already know. It's just not ambiguous. It's like, yeah, that's what this is. Because my perception of it is that you essentially take these magic mushrooms in a controlled environment to essentially access what is sitting beneath the blocks and the – It's a really good way of putting it.

22:05 So, you know, for me, the first thing that I saw was I said to the person who was administering, she said, what's your tolerance like to, you know, drugs and stuff? And I said, this will be high. Yeah. It's pretty high. Is this a mid-strength or a full-strength piece? I'm an actor, so this is, you know, I'll be okay.

22:29 So I took, you know, a lot. And when I dropped in, the first thing that I saw, remember that you guys might be too young, but there was a cartoon years ago called Kimber the White Lion. And... And so, and you're awake, but your eyes are closed and saw this TV, this old TV and the, and Kimber the White Lion was on and the music, like I hadn't heard that music in 30 years.

22:54 It was like it was everywhere. Yeah. Anyway, there's this, and there's this boy, um, standing at the TV in a school uniform, little brown head boy. And he turned around, he was crying. It was me. Oh my God. So he ran to me and I held him for 10 minutes. Now I know what that was about. You know what I mean?

23:18 Like that was the first thing that it showed me. Wow. And so I got to do that and exercise that. And that was to have been sitting there for such a long period of time. And then it just showed me like you talk about ego, like you know, We are so small. You know, like it was like we are all connected but you are so small.

23:41 And then it held me down in some stuff that was really, really hard, you know, and I knew what that was and I'd rubbed my nose in it and it was this is what this is and it sort of let me go and then it showed me some other things. Stuff that's really hard, do you mean? Hard in the sense of your regrets or, you know, whatever that is.

24:07 Experiences from your life. Experiences, you know, like if you want to feel this way, then this is what this is and it doesn't let you go. And then it opened up into some extraordinary experiences where it showed me my whole family, you know, and I saw my wife with this like a – And she stepped out from behind a door.

24:33 And, and I knew what that was immediately. That was like, she's, she's right here. You know, she's right here. Pay attention. You know, like this is, you're so lucky. It showed me my older brother who was sort of holding my hand through the whole thing and my other brother who just had this immense love for.

24:59 And then my sister who was going through some issues, she had her back toward me. And then my two boys, this tattoo of the boys, my two boys and my daughter on my wrist, and I could see them so clearly. I couldn't see her. It was fading and I was panicking. I was like, what does this mean? Same thing.

25:25 It's not ambiguous. It's like you have to engage. You know, you're a father with these two boys and you've got to talk to her. You've got to be there for her. And that was... And from that moment on, you know, like I take it to school every day, we talk, it changed things dramatically, but it was so, so real, you know, like, and not ambiguous.

25:50 It was that like, this is what this is. And then I saw, and I was panicking, I wasn't, I was going to see my brother, you know, like I was like, well, what is, what's going to happen here? And. He presented himself, and it wasn't him to look at it. It was just him. And I've cried a thousand times to my brother before he passed away and after he passed away.

26:11 I have never cried like that in my life. Like I sobbed for... half an hour. And again, it wasn't ambiguous. It was like, that's acceptance. He's gone. And this is what this is. This is acceptance. And that pain, my pain turned into, I saw my parents and their pain of losing a child. It was heartbreaking.

26:43 You know, like it was, and then, you know, myself was, you know, you need to treat your mother better. You got to – she's – what she's going through compared to you. It's grief, but it's completely different. And my father – The tattoo, a bipolar tattoo, and that face turned into my father and he was screaming in agony and that was because he can't hear.

27:12 He's lost his son. He's the start of Alzheimer's disease. It was just pure pain. Um, and then I got to let go of all this Catholic guilt that I had, that it was wrapped up in the shit that I believed. And, uh, it just, I walked out, I got out and it took me a long time to process it, but it was such a profound experience that it changed.

27:38 It changed me in ways that, that people around me, the people who love me are very aware of, you know, they go, you, you're, this is, there's a real difference here. Yeah. Um, so I feel remarkably lucky that I, I, I went through that and it came at a point in my life where, um, you know, I, I needed it, you know, like I was, uh, a profound, profound experience, you know, something I'm really grateful for.

28:05 Wow. It's something that I would love to do one day. And I know a lot of people, and understandably, would be really reluctant to do it because it's like you're intentionally putting yourself in a situation where you're having to face potentially the most painful things. Talk about toughness. Well, exactly.

28:21 But then, like you just said then, it's actually like really the most selfless, kindest thing you can potentially do for the people around you because you've probably become way more available and present and engaged with them. Ryan, what it taught me, and I said this to my wife, I said it to my brothers, my sister, more than anything, to keep me out of the darkness and back into the light, The things that make me happy are making the people I love happy.

28:56 That's simple. And that might sound really, really basic and rudimentary, but going through that, for me, if I can see the people around me that I love happy and I'm making them happy, and that's just not my family, it's my friends, it's whatever, then I'm good. you know, I'm happy. I'm at ease with myself.

29:20 I'm not looking in the, you know, the re-vision mirror. I'm looking ahead and I'm moving forward. So as simple as that sounds, it's taken a long time to get there. You know what I mean? Yeah, I can imagine. Like a really long time. Well, it's probably pretty common, I think. Like I was literally just talking to the team about this yesterday, but a few weeks ago I was just walking on the street somewhere and I saw a guy who just to me seemed completely free and he was just like this joyous guy just having a lovely time laughing.

29:56 From what I – I didn't know the guy, but from what I could tell, I felt like he had zero worries or blocks or – But I feel like I walk around, I don't have like, I've never struggled with depression or anxiety really, but I feel like I walk around with like a block. It's the layer of worry that I'm very conscious of and I find really hard to often break through it.

30:18 And I was thinking like, I wonder what, surely there's, surely there's a drug I can take that can get me out of this. Not to get high, but just to kind of like... access or to get rid of that block. But this sounds like... Yeah, this is... You know, I've had... The retreat I did with psilocybin, for me, that was on another level.

30:42 And I think it happened at a point in my life where, you know, me wanting to do it and needing it at the same time sort of crossed over at a point. And I took the right amount and felt safe. And so I was able to access... My brother had it at the end of the year last year and he rang me and he had had some mushrooms and he was crying and what he'd experienced because he had this experience with my brother.

31:16 And for him it's, you know, we lost our brother. They were two years apart. They were best friends. They travelled together. They were super tight. And so it's been hard for him and he took these mushrooms and he had this experience where the whole room lit up like a light and he goes, that was him. And he goes, he was telling me, you know, he didn't hear a voice but what was being said.

31:50 transpired was Aaron saying, you need to, this is what you need to do. You need to be kinder to your wife and to, and to mom and to, you know, the, the partners of the, of, of my children. And, and, and I'll always be here. You know, I'll never leave you. And he was like, just absolutely like a beautiful experience for him, like an amazing experience, but again, not, not ambiguous.

32:18 I mean, these, These medicines, and that's what they are, like have been around forever. Yeah. For thousands and thousands and thousands of years. And they do work. I mean, psilocybin and the inroads that's happening with people with PTSD and depression and, you know, they'll feed you. I've been on every goddamn, you know, pharmaceutical drug for those types of things.

32:44 I've been to therapy for 20 years. Mate, what happened in eight hours? I blew everything out of the water. Well, it sounds like what happened in those, and what you often hear from people who do psilocybin retreats like that in a controlled way is that it does feel like it's 20 years of therapy in an afternoon because the sort of stuff that you're talking about is the sort of stuff often that the talk therapy is, you know, it can take years to penetrate the layers and to access the stuff that you haven't really consciously thought about.

33:20 No, totally. I mean, I go to therapy, which is still important for me. But what I do is just unload onto my psychologist. Mate, after me, she'd just be going, Oh, not again. But it's, for me, gunner therapy is objectivity. You know what I mean? So you get stuck in your head and this is not working because of this and that.

33:46 You just pull back and, you know, therapy is like looking at things in a much more macro way. and finding objectivity so that, you know, you can move forward with relationships and that's what that is. The psilocybin retreat was accessing things that – I either wasn't courageous enough to talk about or wasn't cognizant that that was there.

34:13 But that all just was right there. So it's just lifting the blanket and going, what's under here? Yeah. There's spiders, there's snakes, there's, you know, so that's what that is. So I feel, you know... Yeah. Time and place, it was probably the perfect time. We've been doing this podcast for a long time and showed to a lot of people.

34:35 I don't know what's happening in my life at the moment that I'm actually – I don't think anything's moved me like that story. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I don't know why but that's really hit me very hard. Yeah, yeah. But thank you for sharing that. Can I add something to that because I – Hearing you talk about your brother and the way you talked about how you had each other as a family growing up, when you moved so much and how tight that made you.

35:01 I consider myself so lucky that I have a brother who has always looked out for me like another parent. Yeah. Hugh and Josh are brothers, if you know. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. The way he's always put me first and has looked out for me in every point of my life. I wanted to ask you, and I hope it's not too sensitive of a question, how hard it must be to be an older brother when you can't help.

35:30 Yeah, it's really hard. Everyone in our family had a very unique relationship with him. So my older brother and him bonded through an organisation they got involved with. And my sister had this beautiful relationship with him that they shared through live music. And then my other brother... They were two years apart.

35:56 They did everything together. They were super close. I, you know, I, me and Aaron were the scaredy cats growing up as kids. You know, we used to leave the little light on. We used to sleep in the same bed together. He's sleeping with me until he was probably 11 years of age, you know, so – And ironically, you know, we were the two fighters, you know, that's what happened, you know.

36:20 And Aaron would have looked at me as the person in the family when it got really bad or really hard that I always stood up because that's what's happened. You know, like I said, you either are or you aren't. So there have been moments in our life that have been, really hard as a family and I step up and step forward.

36:41 And so for him, you know, what he would have seen in me is he would have relied on me. If Matty's there, it's going to be okay. And I know that's how he felt. If Matty's there, everything will be okay. And so for him as well, you know, I was... For him I was a comfort, you know, like I would talk to him about fear and we shared boxing together, you know, like that's what we had.

37:09 So and I could – and it's true, you can't help him in the end when he was ill and he was slipping away. You know, we would leave, you know, the house. And I would sleep with – someone would stay every night and – you know, I'd say to him, you want me to stay? And he couldn't talk. He'd nod. And that was him.

37:39 That was my relationship with him. You know, like, if Matty's here, I'm safe. Yeah. And he had this fucking bell at one point before it got really, really bad where he'd ring it during the – you would get no sleep. He'd go, oh, it's the bell. Anyway, he'd zip out of bed and the poor bugger couldn't move or he'd have to suction the saliva out of his mouth.

38:06 He'd look up, yeah, and you want to be moved. So, you know, move him and roll him over and – And in the moment, you know, when it was happening and we all used to joke about it and laugh, it just wasn't a – it was never a problem. It was just, okay, we just felt so horribly sorry for where he was, you know, like he was tough, you know, like if you talk about physically tough – And he couldn't talk.

38:43 He lost his speech very quickly and he'd be sitting down and I'd say, mate, you must be pissed off. You must be angry. And he'd look at me and go, Which meant... Like shrugged your shoulders. What can I do? There you go. And my poor mother had to, you know, we'd leave at different stages and go home and she was there the whole time and they had this very, very special relationship, you know.

39:08 And going back there now, like it's still hard, you know, like in that room where he was and my dad, you know, he was at the... Look, you've got to find humour in some of the things that were happening. So I'll share this with you, like... My dad's got Alzheimer's and he's probably been exacerbated by losing his son.

39:29 But Aaron had a peg in his stomach for 12 months before he passed away. So he hadn't eaten, hadn't spoken, hadn't walked in 12 months. he's lying down on his bed so he can't move. And my old man came up to him and said, you know, mate, I've made some spaghetti polonaise. Would you like some? And so my old man's there.

39:53 I'm there. Aaron goes... Gave you a look. Yeah, yeah, just like, what the fuck? And so, you know, you had those moments where, you know, you'd find some humour in what they were both going through. Yeah. But, you know, he passed away and... And my poor old dad, Aaron was passed away on the bed and he came up to me and he said, did he die last night or today?

40:26 I said, no, he passed away about an hour ago, mate. And in his head he didn't. He just couldn't. Oh, really? Yeah. So, you know, so there were, you know, and I saw my father, you know, things that, like I said, a parent's grief and a sibling's grief are both really, really profound. But a parent's grief, you know, which I saw, you know, I saw my father, you know, when they came and got him, have to walk out with his son.

40:56 And so I'll never, I'll take him a grave, what that looked like. Um, so, but, but these are all things, you know, like these experiences that, that shape who you are. Inevitably, like I, if I don't come out of this a better human being and a more compassionate, empathetic person. then you've missed the point, you know, because we're all going to endure loss.

41:21 And if there's nothing to be gleaned from it except just grief, then you've missed the boat. What a waste. Yeah. You just mentioned through the whole journey you went through, you were tattooing on your arm the bipolar and the depression. I'm interested to know about it. You've also got a date tattooed on.

41:43 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm covered in mental health tattoos and, you know, I've got some really bad tattoos, you know, like they're all over the place. But the depression... You know, I was diagnosed in 2012 with biological melancholic depression and bipolar 2, which is not a – the doctor who diagnosed me, I call Gordon Parker, who was the head of the Black Dog Institute, and he said that's not a good combination.

42:21 And he laid out some pretty – um, stark sort of, uh, realities. He said, look, if you don't get help with this, then, then you will end up with nothing, nothing, no family, no, nothing. Wow. Um, what was that like to you? Uh, startling, but then, you know, that's got to sink in. And, and I knew what, um, where my dark moments were what it what it what it felt like and it was always sort of cyclic and it would come and go and as a young fella I would get into these what I used to call funks where I wouldn't talk to people for quite a long time and I just couldn't dig myself out and I didn't know what was wrong and so that was sort of the start of like I said was inside me anyway What, what were the sort of, was there an event or things that happened that led you to getting diagnosed or was it just, uh, just chaotic life, you know?

43:11 Um, yeah, there were a period of time where it just, yeah, the, the train was coming off the tracks and, and I needed to ride it and get some hands with a young family and, um, wasn't looking after myself that well. And, um, And when I got told what bipolar 2 is, I already could explain it. I knew what was going on.

43:37 I just didn't know it was that. And for people who think that... I know people who think bipolar is bullshit. Hypermania... is about 10 times better than any drug I've ever had in that period, right, when you're flying that high. Now, I've been there over periods of my life that I have been in hypermatic states for periods of time that I have made choices and decisions, both that have set me on a path to where I'm now and really poor ones.

44:11 Right. So it's a double-edged sword. But if I'm not bipolar, melancholic, depressive, I'm not an actor. I'm not writing. I'm not here. I don't know what I'm... I'm unemployable. So I don't know what I'd be doing. But I made choices in fits of mania, hypermania, that worked out thankfully. Like I'd never been on a film set before in my life.

44:35 I had no great desire to be an actor. Yeah. I wanted to write from a very early age. I had written this thing 15 years ago. And after a conversation with Thomas Keneally, who had read a manuscript of mine, I wrote one, sent it to him, and he remembered me from playing at Manly. And then I sent him another one.

44:57 He read the first one. He said, son, if this is what you want to do, you should put it in a drawer and keep writing. So I wrote something else. I gave it to him six months later and he called me. I was working as a beer rep for James Bogues and he called me and he said, son, I've just read your new manuscript.

45:14 And he said, I'm going to tell you now, this is what you should be doing. And I wouldn't tell you that if I didn't believe it because it would be immoral of me. And that conversation changed everything because I was in this horrible situation. I was like, if I can't make this a career somehow, I'm going to really, really struggle.

45:32 I quit my job a week later and my wife, thankfully, had read the manuscript, which was auctioned and 12 months later and I got a two-book deal. But I said, give me 12 months just to see if I can make something of this. So in the 12-month period after leaving the job, I'd made a movie. I'd written a movie, made a movie, put myself in it.

45:56 Paramount Pictures had bought it. That was all done in hypermania. Which movie was that? It was called The Final Winter. So if I not have that disorder, then I'm not making those choices. Look, believe me, the people who loved me and cared for me, they weren't tapping me on the backside going, mate, where you go?

46:13 They're going, who the fuck does this guy think he's going to be in a movie? My parents go, Christ. Yeah. What, he's in it? Oh. I'd never taken an acting lesson. I'd never been on a film set. Day one of that film was the first time I'd been on a film set. If I'm not hyper manic and I'm not reaching for these things that aren't seated in reality when you're normal, then I'm not making those choices.

46:37 I remember coming out of Mania and... And being in the film set and going, I really don't understand how I got here or what I'm doing. Just put, don't think about it, just keep going. But that's where I got to. Wow. The movie comes out in September of 2007. November of 2007, I get a phone call. I didn't even have an agent.

47:03 I had nothing. This agent rings me out of the blue and says, look, they're looking for the lead in this TV series over in America. Yeah. would you go on tape and audition? I didn't know what she meant. I'd never auditioned. Go on tape. I didn't tape a tape. She goes... How did they get onto you? How did they find you?

47:19 The agency had seen the film and they were like, Matt might be right for this. So they were... Thankfully, they... Anyway... And he also got an agent so we can get him cheap. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm sitting there going, okay, so I went down to Fox Studios and did an audition. I'd never auditioned before in my life.

47:38 So there's a camera, there's another guy talking with me. I'm like, I don't know. I did the accent all right. Anyway, I get a phone call the next day going, we're putting you on a plane on Monday to go to LA to test for the studio and the network, right? I'm like, what? What? Okay. Anyway, I told my wife, she goes, what?

47:55 I said, yeah, yeah. Anyway, I get on the plane. I go to America. I go and... There are a thousand actors listening to this going, fuck you. Absolutely. And they should be. So I walk into the network, I test for the network, and the director, a guy called John Hertzfeld, he'd done a lot of stuff. He goes...

48:14 He wanted me. He goes, you've nailed it. You've got to do it now for the studio. So I went back in the studio. Anyway, I've finished at the studio. Anyway, he rings me up and he goes, mate, congratulations. You got it. I'm like... Okay, righto. So I go home and it's not like I'm number one on the call sheet.

48:30 Like I'm the lead of this thing, right? This is me. Like I don't – this is ridiculous. So I go over there, film it, you know, main title card, I'm the number one on the call sheet. I had one credit, which was the final winter. And if I'm not making those decisions 12 months, 18 months before in those manic – Wow.

48:54 Then none of that happens. This is such a naive question, but with bipolar 2, you've got – you say hypermania, so you have periods of weeks or days or hours or what happens? Do I say there's all sorts of – there's fast cycling. So sometimes you get into a situation where it's like you're really, really – high during the day and then it cycles down at night or the other way around and you know that's what's happening.

49:18 And then there's weeks where you're bubbling away and then pop. You're like, well, I'm in it. I'm here now. Look, the way it manifests itself is like if I'm in hypermania, You're big talking. My wife can tell straight away. I'm like, are you high? I'm like, sorry. So big talk, risky behavior, exacerbated with alcohol, talking to people that I don't know.

49:47 Now, I've been invited to weddings because people have had a good experience with me with two nights on a drink because I'm on bipolar. I'm like, Matt Naples and... She's the best because what I'm doing is telling them how good they are. Yeah. So I'm trying to drag everyone up to where I'm at, you know, so you, and that's not real because you come down and you're like, oh, the phone will ring and you'll be like, I don't want to, fuck.

50:11 Oh, who's that? So, you know, these days, thankfully for me, which can happen as you get older, it can really diminish. So there was a period of like 10 years where it was you're surfing it, right? And as soon as spring would come, you'd be like, here we go, you know, hang on. Look, like I said, I'm not acting if I don't have it.

50:37 I'm also not married. Right. you know, unless I get a hold of it, right? So it's a double-edged sword. So coming out of it, you're like, okay, well, I'm out of it. Next time it happens, how do I manage this? So I've been lucky as I've got older, it's diminished, and I'm just really honest with it. So I'll just go, well, I need to hunker down here for a little while because this is feeling a little too good.

51:06 Yeah. And then it will pass. Is there a flip side to it though? Like is there a low? Look, the low is the depression. But that's different. Coming off the high of a hypomanic episode is exhaustion and regret depending on what you've done. Yeah. Melancholic depressive is a depression for me. Like bipolar doesn't scare me.

51:32 Depression scares me. Depression is because that can take me to places very, very quickly for no reason. It's not situational, not circumstantial. People could look at my life and go, what's wrong? So it comes from nowhere and there's no real reason for it. It's just this melancholic depressive. dark gloom that will sit on me.

51:54 And so there are things that I do now to – I'm like, okay, I'll get through this. And I've said this quite often, you know, I've been lucky that people have – I've got people around me who have grabbed my hand and taken me from the dark back to the light and dragged me out of it or sat with me in the dark.

52:15 until it passes. And it's been hard at times for my children to bear witness to because they understand, well, they know. They go, well, he's not right. But more my wife. I'm hard not to get emotional. She sits with you? She, she, she, what she's endured, you wouldn't put anyone through, you know, it's, it's been a hard road and, and she stood by me.

52:43 She's, she believes in me, you know, and she, yeah, she sat with me. She's, that's different stages drag me out of it. But, you know, I'm. There's three people in my life that I've had that are just exceptional people, that are just beautiful people. My mother, my wife's mother who passed away last year, and my wife, you know, are people that, have such a goodness, a purity in them that I've not encountered anywhere else.

53:19 And, you know, what she's had to endure through the bipolar has been difficult, but the depression, she knows that... that this will come and bite me again at some point, you know, that this, it's going to happen, you know, and she doesn't, she, she, she understands, you know, like, and she's going to sit there with me and, and, uh, she's not leaving.

53:42 She's not saying, okay, well, this is, this is Maddie and this is part of it, you know, um. And there is a part of it, you know, knowing that when you're in it, thankfully, that I know what will pass. Like I know that now. So you're not going to make a permanent decision to a temporary problem. Now, like I said, I have this tattoo on my wrist where…

54:08 You know, and this is how it happens. You make, all of a sudden one day I started making plans really quickly. Like I was like, I'm done. And I found myself in a situation at a place where I feel very lucky that I'm here. And what pulled me away from where I was inevitably was shame. shame, like it was an overwhelming feeling of like, you're not going to do, this is shameful.

54:46 You know what I mean? And I'm thankful for that, you know, because that led me away from where I, and I've never been there since. But the speed in which that happened in a day, that's startling. And for so many people, that is how it happens. And is that what the tattoo is? That's the date on your... That's the date, yeah.

55:08 Right. Which, you know, I don't speak openly about. I'm happy to talk about it, but, you know, people look at it and go, who know me? Go, they wouldn't have a clue what that's about. But that for me is just a reminder of how quickly things can happen and how quickly it could be over, you know, and you're gone.

55:27 And, man, you know, it... It happens so often and unfortunately it happens in epidemic proportions for men, which doesn't get addressed a great deal or nowhere near as much as it should. So I'm remarkably lucky that I have the support around me, particularly my wife, but my immediate family, because there is a world where it might not have played out that way.

56:02 I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been, I've spoken about it before, but I, the speed is such an interesting thing that I haven't really talked about, but the speed, I had a moment in 2010 where I, and I've spoken about this, but I found myself on the edge of a building and I was really drunk, which didn't help.

56:27 Yeah. But for whatever reason, I pulled myself back from the edge that night and I haven't been that close. But there's been other times like only two years ago, I just, I was already, so I've had bouts of depression and I stuffed up the hot cross buns for the family on Easter. And I was so pissed off at myself that I found myself in the shower.

56:54 I needed to get away. It was at my in-law's house. And I was punching. I punched myself so hard in the thigh so many times. And I just couldn't. And I went from 10 minutes earlier, I woke up and I was like, I think I wasn't in a good state. And I'm like, these hot cross buns are going to make me feel good.

57:13 I'm going to be the guy that... creates this thing and I'd fuck them up. And I went from being I'm going to be the guy that saves Easter or makes Easter to your kids need a better dad within ten minutes, five minutes. Yeah. And that's the startling part, mate. I'm sorry to hear that but that's how everything can happen.

57:35 Yeah. And it's terrifying. It's really scary to me to know that I'm capable of that, of getting there. Yeah. Yeah. But what you said about your wife really resonated me because I hate being such a downer to like that my wife and my kids are too young to really know. They're four and six. But I hate the fact that it could come again and I'm going to be like, totally.

58:00 I'm going to have to tell them. I think the thing is for that, mate, is you talk to people, you know, and you make people aware around you that this is what you're going through. That's really, really important. You know, my kids are at an age now, they're a 22-year-old boy, a 20-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl.

58:16 So if I need to talk to them about it, I can talk to them about it. The other flip side of that is and what I've learned is because there's that, that there's that darkness, that there's that darkness. then we as depressives can often look at the world a little differently. So when there is real joy, when there is real happiness, you acknowledge it.

58:37 Like it lives inside you. You're like, this is the best. So because you felt that, you get to feel this, which is moments I have where They're tiny little moments, but I'm at home and I see what my family is, how we all are with each other, and I'll hear music and I'm like, I wouldn't trade this for anything.

59:08 And also too, mate, like, yeah, you look at the world differently. I see things that perhaps other people don't take on board or will acknowledge that you find humanity in. You're like, this should affect me. You know, as sad as it is and as hard as it is, you've got to accept it and you've got to take it on board.

59:30 Yeah, I feel compelled to add that for me, when I'm in a depressive state, it's a numbness to the world that really gets me down, this sort of lack of engagement with anything. Yeah. But then we've spoken a lot on this show about how being present and in the moment is the goal, it's the dream. Yeah. And I feel like there's a moment when I'm coming out of it when it can be like a flower or a sunset or just something.

59:56 Yeah. And I suddenly just am like lit up. I get tingles thinking about it now. And I'm like, I'm here. And this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And it's like, yes, I'm back. And it's just the best. It's great. And if I hang on to things, you know, like music is a big thing for me, a trigger.

1:00:13 smells. Like I said, if I'm making the people around me happy, I'm happy to see people happy. I work for Fox Sports and you do all the voiceover there, so I get tickets for everything, for everything. And nothing makes me happier. It's like, you want to go ringside? Yeah, go. You want to go to the grand final?

1:00:34 Go. You want to go to State of Origin? Go. Those little things, I'm like, to see the joy on other people's faces, just their little things, I'm like, wow, wow, And that's what life's about. Those moments where you're able to impart some sort of happiness or joy for someone else nourishes who you are.

1:00:56 As depressive people, you've got enough to deal with. But those moments where you can nourish yourself and love yourself, which I've learned, are really, really important because that's the lens then that you see life through. When you feel good about yourself and who you are, mate, there's no murky lens.

1:01:16 It's like clear. It's just a better way to see life. And like I said, just talk... It took way longer to get there than it should have. Just something so simple. Yeah, I did. I mean, you've given us so much today. It's really unbelievable. I just wonder whether or not for all of us Fox footy fans, is there a really common phrase you say as the voice of Fox footy?

1:01:41 Here we go. Yeah, yeah. My kids are always like, I do the AFL, the NRL and the boxing, but the AFL and the NRL every week. Yeah. And, yeah, there's a few, you know. What's the catchphrases? Oh, it's like, what about this guy? Here we go. You know, so every time Gordon Teller sees me, he just goes, Matty, here we go.

1:02:06 So, you know, right here on Fox League. And look, I feel like I love doing that. It just is a gift. It really is. What a gig. Yeah. It makes everything sort of make sense as to why. you can write so well as well. Like why you are such a great writer. You're in your latest book now, Maya, is that right?

1:02:26 Maya, yeah. I'd love to hear a bit about that before we... Yeah, look, Maya, look, this is the fifth novel I've had. So like I said, writing for me is a real anchor. Like that's, I feel, you know, someone asked me what I am and if I say an actor, sometimes I'm like... I don't know if I'm very good at that.

1:02:45 I'm not trained. So there's this imposter syndrome that sort of comes with that at times. And then I can get over that pretty quickly. But writing for me is a great part of my persona. Like I was riding on the plane here. I'll ride on the way back. It's a really important part of anchoring me to my life.

1:03:07 Yeah. And is that writing, is that like journaling or is it intentional writing? No, no, writing, so either a novel, fiction or a screenplay, it's – Hard to explain how much joy, particularly as I've got all that, that I derive from it, how much I love it. Like when I hear people talk about writer's block, I'm a bit miffed.

1:03:27 I'm like, well, I've never had that. I'm very miffed. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I just, if I could write in that and that would be it, then that's what I'd do. But Meyer is about a guy who... Dan Milligan, who's a dickhead, you know, and he's gone through the stock market crash in 1987 and this is a guy who's been wanting his father's approval his whole life and his father's a soldier and he just doesn't name up.

1:03:59 And so what he decides is, I want to be rich and wealthy and, you know, he's a real tryhard. And I'll preface this by saying I was, you know, Azra had passed away and I needed to have some fun about who I was writing about. So I'd go back and write this guy. I was like, this is just great fun. Because his bad choices are just like, oh, he's done it again.

1:04:18 But he goes through the stock market crash, he loses all his money, his wife leaves him, goes down south coast and starts mowing lawns, right? He's got nothing else. So it's a bit of historical fiction. Back in the 70s and the 80s, the American mafia were really, really involved in the Riverina growing marijuana, massive quantities, and they had a little trouble getting it out because it was all cash.

1:04:42 So I just put it in the South Coast and Dan comes across, he's mowing a property, comes across his hoard of money in like a trapdoor in like a big property. Hoard of money? What? Like a bag of money. A hoard of money. So he sees it and he's like, I'm not touching that. Like there's like a million dollars in there.

1:05:00 And he's like, no, no. Leaves it, leaves it, leaves it. The guy who owns the property ends up selling it. He leaves. He goes back and he goes, it's still there. What do I do? And this is a guy who's just driven by – you know, the facade and he's got this grand plan. If I take this, I come back, everyone will fucking flying again.

1:05:17 And, and he just can't help himself and he takes it and he inserts himself back into the trading life and he's swimming in it. He's everyone's, you know, and he's very, very debaucherous sort of lifestyle and, And they track it down and they find him. The mafia. The mafia. And they, you know, as soon as he's – they're going to knock him up in the Blue Mountains and they're going to knock another guy there at the same time who's another mafia associate.

1:05:44 And this guy Dan pleads for his life. He says, look, I'm a trader. I can make the money back and I've got property. And they go, no, no, we've already got that. We want the cash that he took. And so what happens is he has this moment where he's pleading for his life and the other mafia guy goes, right, if you want to start working it off, start now.

1:06:05 And so he's like, I'm not killing that guy. Look, we're killing him. You're going straight after him. But if you want to live, start working for me. Great story. It was, look, it was a real great fun to ride. Like I said, I was grieving and I needed something to ride that was just like a fun time. And so hanging with this guy, you know, while I was riding it, I was like, this is a real joy.

1:06:29 That sounds awesome. So, yeah, it's out now and it's doing really well, which is great. So, mate, I am the luckiest man in the world, you know, like on so many levels, and I'm remarkably grateful. You know what I mean? You went through before. I've done all these different things, mate, for a lot of it, and this is the truth, I've been in the right place at the right time.

1:06:50 I've had people believe in me. that, that, that otherwise, you know, other people may not have had that grace. So I'm thankful for all those opportunities and, and, and belief. Because without those people along the way, I, like I said before, when I said I'm unemployable, I'm unemployable. You know, I'd be, I'd be looking at what, fuck, I'm going to have to get out of this job before they fire me.

1:07:16 I'd probably interview really well and then, yeah, I'm out. Well, you auditioned very well, clearly. Yeah, yeah. So I'm really lucky. Like, I feel really, really grateful for everything that I've got. Well, Matty, what you've given us today is the reason that we do this podcast. So thank you so much for your time.

1:07:34 No, and thank you, boys, for, you know, I could see that it was affecting everyone. And I wish that, you know, men could get around and talk like this openly a little bit more. For me, it's cathartic. I get to talk about things that otherwise might bottle up, so I've equally enjoyed it as much. So thank you very much for having me.

1:07:56 Thank you, mate. Hi, it's me again, and I'm here with George. Hello. Hello, Josh. George, for those of you who don't know, George is a editor, video person. He just runs so much of the show and such an important part of the team. We're here today to talk about, what are we here to talk about? The thing that I don't run at all.

1:08:15 True, which is the newsletter. We have a newsletter, it's called My Perfect Email. And one of the aspects of the newsletter that makes it so special is the journaling club that we've started. Every week in our Imperfects newsletter, you get a question to reflect on that's inspired by the Wakes episode.

1:08:33 And George, you're here to tell us a bit about the question this week and why we went with that question. Yeah, so this week we have gone with the question, how would you like to be remembered? Quite a beautiful, big question to think about. Yeah, yeah. And the reason for that is Matt spoke about his brother Aaron and the turnout to his funeral.

1:08:50 Yeah. I think he said there was like 2,000 people who came. because he was such a kind, gentle man. Yeah. And then Matt also went on to say how all he wants to be known for in this life is five things, a son, a brother, a friend, a partner and a father. Yeah. And I thought that was just such a nice way to...

1:09:09 think about life and think about how you'd like to be remembered by the people around you. Yeah, fantastic. So for anyone that wants to be a part of the journaling club, you just have to sign up to the newsletter, which you can do so at theimperfects.com.au, or there should be a link in this episode notes for you to click on.

1:09:26 And if you feel comfortable, please share your entries with us and it might be featured in next week or another week's newsletter. Yeah, we'd love to read them. This show was made in the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.

1:09:49 The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 1114.