Rory McIlroy on His Secret Goal, Trump and the Future of Golf

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This is everything I've ever wanted in the game to win the Grand Slam. And no one's been able to do it three times in a row. So, you know, I'd love to have the opportunity. I have a goal in my head, but I don't want to put that out into the world.

It can be my little secret.

Rory McIlroy, ongoing for a third consecutive Masters and golf today. What about fans and spectators? Is there something particular about politics or do you think behaviour overall is getting worse?

I'd say it's a combination of both.

And if you were ever to play with President Trump again, would you talk to him about it?

I think having someone in that position supporting the game of golf is a net positive. But yes, has maybe some of the rhetoric being used and in the political arena spilled over into sport fandom and everyday life?

Absolutely.

From Bloomberg Weekend, this is The Michelle Hussain Show. I'm Michelle Hussain. It's not every day that you share a stage with someone who has excelled to the degree that Rory McIlroy has. He is a champion golfer, one of a tiny group of men to have achieved the career Grand Slam, winning all of golf's major tournaments. And then this year he won one of those tournaments, the Masters at Augusta, for a second time running. If he manages to do that again next year in 2027... His place in sporting history will be cemented because no one has yet achieved three consecutive wins at Augusta. Now, I know not all of you will play golf or follow golf or might think you're not interested in golf. But at

the heart of this bonus episode is a conversation about commitment and perseverance, about drive and excellence. And that's why I think there's something in it for everyone. Plus, the game of golf has been mired in controversy for years, ever since the creation of a Saudi-funded breakaway league, Live Golf.

It is now in considerable financial difficulty. Rory McIlroy was always an opponent of Live Golf, indeed, one of the most high-profile opponents. So we talk about it, about what should happen next. He doesn't say, I told you so, but he is clear on how difficult it has been. particularly to see fragmentation and personal animus in the sport he loves. And then there are the fans, the question of behaviour. Rory has seen antipathy and aggression up close in the US. All of that is part of this episode, a conversation that took place at an annual Bloomberg event held in India for the first time this year. Here's what happened as we sat down together on stage. Rory, it is such a pleasure to have you here with

us at New Economy Forum.

So thank you for joining us.

And I know that you are back in India to play again in the DP World India Championships. And I just wondered, first of all, what is the experience of playing in India like? Because you know what it's like in so many different countries. So put India into.

That for us.

Yeah absolutely so last year was my first experience of playing in India and I honestly I couldn't believe their reception and the enthusiasm that the fans had to see not only me but some of the other best players in the world come to India and play and I think there was probably more people at the golf course than everyone expected there to be and I think as well you know It was the first time staging this tournament last year, and then to go back on site today and see the improvements and everything that they've been able to do in a year, it just makes the tournament feel even bigger and better than it was last year.

And it's only year two, so I think as time goes on, this event will feel.

bigger and better every year.

And of course, the game is also growing in India. What does that mean to you to see the game move from, you know, the sort of colonial era members only, more exclusive golf courses into a new phase?

Absolutely.

I think tournaments like this only help to try to bring that accessibility to golf, especially.

In this country.

It's amazing to see so many kids out there on the golf course when we're playing. It's a wonderful thing for Indian golf. And obviously we've seen everyone wants to get into this market. It's a huge market. The middle class is growing so much. You know, we talk about winning the Masters and having a US TV audience of 20 million, and the average viewership here of an IPL game is in the 400 millions, I think.

Well, that's the thing.

There is another very big sport, which is very dominant in this country.

I mean, I think we were just talking about it backstage. Once upon a time, Cricket was seen as an elitist sport. And all of a sudden that's been brought to the masses. And, you know, I think we can do a similar thing with golf.

So then I do want to ask you about what this phase in your life is like, because that incredible moment 18 months ago when you achieved the career Grand Slam, becoming the first European to do that, only the sixth man ever to do that. I think anyone who is remotely conscious of media at that point will have seen that incredible picture of you falling to your knees. But I'm curious about this next phase. Once you've achieved such an incredible career goal, what does the period after feel like?

There's two different answers.

There's probably what it should have felt like and what it actually felt like for me. So I think because I had been striving for this it was sort of like this white whale of my career. I'd won everything else there was to win in the game. And I started to wonder, would I ever win the Masters? Would I ever complete the slam and be the sixth player to do it? And as I was not waiting, like I'm not waiting for this to happen to me, like you have to go out and earn it. But I'm seeing a lot of my peers either win the Masters or win major championships. And it got to a point where I was starting to become a little bit impatient with it. And I think I needed to sort of reframe, at least in my mind, the process of what I

need to do to try to go and win the Masters. And, you know, I worked with Bob Rutella, a sports psychologist, a lot, and just tried to go in there within the right frame of mind. And it's amazing, you know, you win one and, you know, you get that euphoric feeling. And definitely going back to the Masters this year, I felt, I just felt lighter. I felt this, you know, the weight of expectation was gone. And All of a sudden, I went from thinking I'd never win the Masters to having two in two years.

And I'm sure that's a big goal for next year, right? If you do, God willing, do three in a row, you will be the first person ever to have done that.

Yeah.

Again, you think about the amazing careers. Jack Nicklaus has won six of them. Tiger's won five. There's quite a few. I think Arnold Palmer, four. You've got Nick Fowler, three.

Phil Nicklaus, three.

There's a lot of great players that have won championships multiple masters but no one that you know no one's been able to do it three times in a row so um you know i'd love to have the opportunity.

Is there something freeing about getting to that career grand slam or maybe this is what you're.

Referring to that you wished it would i do wish it would feel that way i think i i struggled last year to to reset my goals it was like okay well what's next you know this is everything i've ever wanted in the game to to win the grand slam and.

Actually, I had dinner with Roger Federer at the start of this year. And I talked to him about that. I talked to him about when you really did everything that you wanted to do in tennis. What was it that drove you forward? And his thing was always to get past Sampras. Sampras won 14 majors. And once Roger got to 15... He said to me, he said, well, like once I got the 15, 20 didn't seem too far away, you know? So I think it's always just, you know, you win something, you're satisfied for a little bit, but then the goalposts just keep moving a little bit further and further away. And I think that's true with all, not just sports people, but anyone that wants to be successful in business or in life. Every time you achieve something,

it seems like there's always something else that you want to.

Do you have a new set of goalposts or is that.

I do. I do have it.

After that conversation with Roger, I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. I'm never going to put a number on it because I don't want to.

Jinx it.

I don't want to jinx it and I don't want to... I look at Tiger Woods and he always had the goal of surpassing Jaxie at 10 and he got to 15, which is an amazing career.

But is that... you know, does that, you know, that failure to reach that goal, does that.

It's not really a failure.

It's not a failure, but it's, I don't know if I, you know, I have a goal in my head, but I don't want to put that out into the world.

It can be my little secret.

I think that's totally fair.

So let's talk then about the state of the global game and particularly what you've called this fractured period in men's golf since the creation of Liv. And, you know, it's been a really difficult few years. And we're at this moment now when there has been a filing for bankruptcy in the U.S. Liv may get a new lease of life through some more financing.

What do you make of it?

Yeah, I... It's hard, yeah.

Look, BC Partners have come in and they've seen an opportunity. I. It looks like every day that goes by, there's another player that was on Live that says that they're not going to rejoin for Live 2.0, so I think it is going to be very difficult for them to get out of this Chapter 11 bankruptcy and go forward. But if they do, it's a It's certainly not going to be a threat to the traditional order of the game as it maybe once was.

Should there be a 2.0?

In my opinion, I don't think so. I don't think they're going to be... They're talking about 10 events. John Rams now said he's going to commit to the DP World Tour and whatever path that he needs to take to get back to the PGA Tour.

The thing is, we were talking backstage, Liv had....

Probably like half of a good idea that was executed pretty poorly. They had a lot of capital, but I think a lot of that capital was wasted in some ways. And I think they could have used that money a lot more strategically and they could have partnered with some of the governing bodies of the game and they certainly could have done better things with it instead of just, you know, enriching tour pros that were already making a lot of money.

So, You could say at this point, I told you so, because you were never... I mean, you were not only never a fan, you were probably the highest profile, if not one of the highest profile opponents.

Tiger and I, at the very start, back in 2022, when this thing kicked off, we were certainly the two that were maybe the most.

Vocal against it.

But we were probably the two that had the most to lose as well, in terms of our stature within the PGA Tour. And so... Yes, I think we both felt that this wasn't good for the game and this was going to fracture the game. But also, you know, everyone around the game has interests and we were about to launch TGL and we thought Liv could have taken something away from TGL, which it did because some players went to Liv and you had to be a PGA Tour member to play in TGL. So, you know, everyone has different interests in the game and you're trying to protect your interests but you're also trying to protect the interests of the game as a whole.

And I do want to talk about TGL came out of tomorrow's sports. Uh, it's tomorrow's tomorrow golf league, but I, just before I do that, I mean, did you lose friends over live fellow golfers?

Yeah, I, I, yes, certainly people that I played with on European Ryder cup teams that I, I'm not as close.

With anymore, but I would say it wasn't. Yes.

Did we have a difference of opinion on the future of golf, but, I don't think that's something to lose friends over. But we also just didn't see each other anymore. You know, they didn't play the same tournaments. They weren't eligible for the Ryder Cup. They weren't qualifying for the major championships. So you just, you know, and you don't live in the same places as these people. So you just, you lose touch.

But that's why I wonder what it would take to heal the fracture. Should those players be allowed back to the PGA Tour or does there need to be some kind of drawing of a line in the sand, whatever happens to live.

I think the thing that people have to realize is both the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour are membership organizations. And the leadership of both of those organizations need to go to the members and say to them, okay, what would you like to see? Because on one hand, I'm sure some members that stayed loyal would feel hard done by if these guys can just walk straight back in.

But then on the other side, having these players back on your tour is very good for business and that can drive revenues up and then everyone can benefit from that. So there certainly is a balance there. And I think even you see Guy Kinnings coming out this week and saying that if Live does go ahead in this 2.0 version, players that are thinking of going that direction, they're going to have to make a choice. It's either you play Live 2.0 and you can't play the DP World Tour or you play the DP World Tour and you can't play Live 2.0. But I think this this period of trying to double dip and do both is over.

Okay, so would you vote to have them back?

If you had a personal vote, would you vote to have them back in the tours you're part of or not?

Yes, I would.

I think a rising tide lifts all boats and I think having some of these players back is beneficial for the business of the tours, absolutely.

Let's talk about the future of the game and new formats and particularly what you've been part of in creating TGL, which I think perhaps you should describe it for anyone who's not familiar, that it is a fusion of the game and technology in a custom built indoor arena in Florida.

Yeah, it is. So it's, yeah, most PGA Tour players live in Florida.

So we thought we should probably build a facility that it was easy to get to. So yeah, it's a, It's an amazing arena. It's about the size of an American football pitch. And on one end, you've got a green and a sort of short game area. And the green is basically on a turntable, so it can rotate and it can change slope. So every time that you play a hole, the green is different from what it was the previous hole, which is very, very interesting. And then for the full shots, you hit into a A screen that is, you know, I don't know the exact dimensions, but 40 feet high by, you know, 100 feet wide.

It's a massive screen. And it is very realistic. You head from about 30 yards from the screen. So you see the first little bit of the flight. And yeah, the fusion of technology with real gameplay, being able to condense it into a two-hour window. So the one, I'd say the one criticism that golf has, especially in this day and age, is that it takes too long. And we've been able to condense a match into a two hour window. We do that in prime time on ESPN in the States.

And you're mic'd?

And we're mic'd up and we try to be funny and we try to keep things going and be entertaining.

But that's why I wonder, is it part of a competition, if you like, for attention? Is it part of getting to people who might otherwise be gaming?

Absolutely.

I think I don't, you know, even whenever we were having this fight in the game of golf, whether it was Liv and PJ Turr or whatever, like instead of fighting with each other, we need to fight with things, other things that are taking away people's attention from what we're trying to do. So as you said, gaming or, you know, we play on Monday.

Yeah.

Or we play on Monday and Tuesday nights and there's college basketball on or there's baseball or whatever it is. So that's really who we should be trying to take some market share away from, not each other. You know, we should all be trying to get together and then trying to eat into people's time and, maybe get them not to scroll on TikTok and get them to watch this.

And it's certainly, we have seen that the younger demographic have become quite engaged in TGL. And that's been great to see as well, because it is, you know, we talked about it before, in some places it is seen as elitist, it's seen as an older person's sport. But what we've seen from TGL is we've definitely, you know, engaged that younger demographic, which is great.

And what is the balance between that and preserving the the way that you grew up in Northern Ireland, you know, being taught by your dad, going out into the fresh air, doing, you know, round after round. I learned on sand in Saudi Arabia as a teenager when my parents lived there. You know, these were the kinds of things that were set up by the original oil workers where they just wanted somewhere to play and there was no grass to be found. Do you worry about a format like you're describing, brilliant as it is, displacing the traditional game which you've grown to love?

I don't think so. I, and I, I wouldn't, even though I've got a vested interest, I wouldn't want to see the game go in that direction. I see it as, you know, I think there's, there's, there's space for everywhere in the game. So I would see like the major championships and traditional championship golf, like test cricket. And then you would see TGL maybe like 2020.

Test cricket's possibly not in a great place.

Everywhere in the world.

I think it's something people still get excited about, India and Australia playing test or the Ashes or whatever it is. So I think there's still space for that in the game of golf, absolutely. Those are the traditional championships that certainly when my career is done, people are going to say, okay, well, how many majors did Rory win? And how did that compare to Tiger or Jack or whoever else? So I still think that is... you know, when you're talking about the elite level of professional golf, that is how we're going to be judged. But I do think that there's room for, for all of this, especially for if, if we can get young people engaged in the game of golf through, through TGL or through even like top golf

or any of these types of things that are non green grass. And, and we can transition them at some point in their life to going and playing outside, playing on courses and, I'm playing the traditional version of the game. I think this is a, it's an easier introduction into the game of golf than what there has traditionally been.

What about fans and spectators?

I'm thinking about the Ryder Cup experience with really bad behaviour that the Europeans experienced at the hands of American fans. Was there something particular about that moment in time in politics, or do you think behaviour overall is getting worse?

I'd say it's a combination of both. I'd say the....

Yeah, the prevalence of social media and everyone having an opinion and feeling like they can say whatever they want without any consequences. That can be done on a phone, but I think that can then spill out into fandom in a sporting environment as well. And you don't just see it in golf. You see it now in a lot of different sports. You see it like the WNBA, for example, at the minute. They're having some trouble with that.

which is quite disturbing to see as well. So it's a, I think it's a, it's a moment in time and I would like to see more decorum come back into, to fandom of sports golf and everything else. But, you know, we as a European team talk about, you know, we would, what we're going to try to do in Ireland next year is set an example of, of what, how we want our fans to behave. So even if, we see our fans behaving badly towards the US, we're going to call them out. And we're going to say, yes, we don't do that here. You got to show each team the same.

Level of respect. It's okay to cheer for your team. It's okay to be boisterous, but you still have to be respectful.

And do you find that it has affected you? And I mean, I know there was a particularly horrible incident when your wife ended up receiving end of a drink.

But I mean, you, when you hear things shouted.

It's certainly given me thicker skin. But yeah, that was a tough week. It all ended the right way because we were able to get the win. And that was an amazing thing for Europe to win on American soil. But yeah, I think that week will always be tainted a little bit for us because of what we had to endure during the week.

And if you were ever to play with President Trump again, I know you've had a round with him before, would you... Would you tell him about this? Would you talk to him about it?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what there would be to say.

He loves golf. He's a big supporter of golf. And, you know, you saw him at the Ryder Cup. You saw him at the President's Cup a couple of weeks ago. I think having someone in that position supporting the game of golf, you know, is a net positive. But yes, has maybe some of the rhetoric that has been used and in the political arena spilled over into sport fandom in everyday life.

Absolutely.

And I think, you know, dialing it back on both fronts is probably a good thing for everyone.

You mentioned earlier working with a psychologist and I'm just keen to really think about the lessons from your world, which is a very special world of the elite athlete.

For all of us.

What is the most important thing that a psychologist or a coach can give someone at your level?

It's the, for me anyway, and I think, you know, all athletes are different. It's having trust in yourself and not second guessing your decisions and falling back on your preparation and feeling good with that. So then that you can go in, if you have to make a decision on the spot, instinctually knowing that you're making that decision from a very solid base. So that to me is where Bob and I have worked so well. He would always say to me, if you can look at yourself at the end of the day in the mirror and say, that's how I want to feel playing golf. If that's the feeling that you have, then he said, no matter what the score is, that's a win because you're even if you were winning, but you looked at yourself in

the mirror and you said yourself, that felt horrible today. I felt like I was second guessing myself and I got lucky and where if you can play a round of golf and, you know, we talk about that like childlike enthusiasm, you know, finding the joy in the game again. And as a pro for 20 years, sometimes that's hard to do. So it's, it has become a job, but at the same time, you always have to remember why you started to do it.

And that's because you loved it.

And you, you know, that's, and sometimes there, you know, a healthy dose of perspective is, is needed where, you know, if I get a little sick and tired of the game, if I, you know, put myself back to when I was 18 years old and embarking on my professional career, whatever have imagined one day that this is, the position I'd find myself. And 18-year-old Rory would look at 37-year-old Rory today and be like, that's pretty cool.

So I have to always remember that.

Are you playing with your daughter?

Yeah, she plays a little bit.

She's six?

She's six.

She actually takes more tennis lessons at the minute than golf lessons. Her backhand is better than mine. But yeah, she's interested in the game. She actually, going back to the TGL... conversation I got back from the writer Eric and I got back from the Ryder Cup last year and the first thing she asked me was um she said daddy is is the Ryder Cup or TGL the bigger event and I said well I I hope TGL keeps growing but I never wanted to surpass what the Ryder Cup is but it just like she really got into the Ryder Cup and she's got into TGL and she loves going to the arena and watching and WTGL the women's is about to start in October so I'm excited to go and you know have her watch some women play in TGL and and sort of give her

that inspiration as well but yeah she's interested you know I'm I'm letting her interest develop organically but you know if if she wants to do it a little more regularly I would love her to do.

That obviously well I'm not six, but I'm conscious that there are probably lots of people in this room who will kill me if I let you go without asking for a few tips.

On a swing.

There's a few people in this room I've played with.

All right, okay.

Well, I just, like, I mean, I don't think anyone here can hope to be anywhere close to Rory McIlroy, but just give us, like, the pointers that might set people on a better path.

Yeah, I think, look, I think, Half the swing is made even before you move the club.

So if I'm talking about... Given that we don't have a club, go on. Okay, that's fine. We'll do something. But like, yeah, the fundamentals, the setup.

So posture, bend from the hips, let your arms hang, sort of even grip where the two palms are almost facing each other. And then basically all you're trying to do is get everything aligned. Your feet, your knees, your hips, your shoulders. and when when you do when you have the right setup I'm not going to swing don't worry no thank you it means that when you start the motion of the club yeah you're not having to make a lot of compensatory moves to get back to the ball so the more that you can be consistent with your setup so even if you go to practice and you hit some balls like putting alignment sticks down or You see Scotty Scheffler, he uses this club that has a mold of the perfect grip on it, and he's

always working on his grip. So it's hard because it's the boring stuff that means the most, but working on your grip, working on your setup, working on your alignment, all that is super important.

And after that, it's really easy.

And after that, it's just you take it back and you take it through, and the ball should go straight.

So... It's.

Perfect when you explain.

It like that.

Rory McIlroy, thank you so much for being with us.

Thank you.

And yes, if you're wondering what that swing tutorial moment actually looked like, you can watch this and all our episodes in full. Go to Bloomberg.com forward slash Michelle or find us on the Bloomberg podcast YouTube channel. I wasn't sure if Rory would be game to give me a bit of live coaching, so credit to him for being willing to work with a very rusty golfer who learned on sand years ago. The Michelle Hussain Show producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlew. Andy Hayward produces and edits our video. Guest booking is by Elan Bird. Social media by Alex Morgan. Production assistance from Indira Ray. And our music is by Bart Warshaw. Executive producer Louisa Lewis was with me at Bloomberg's New Economy Forum. And we'd both

like to thank the team there, particularly Adrienne Toscano and Michaela Sabnani. And also Brendan Francis Newnham and our executive editor, Catherine Bell. Our next episode here is about India from history to present day politics.

That comes on Friday. But for now, goodbye.

Rory McIlroy on His Secret Goal, Trump and the Future of Golf

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