Yotam Ottolenghi on Simple Food in Complicated Times

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News. Hello.

Our episodes don't usually start with my voice like this, but what you're about to hear is a little different to our usual. This show is one year old, a moment that we wanted to mark. So we decided to invite a special guest to be on stage with me in front of a live audience in London. And we turn to someone who's built a global following over nearly 25 years as a chef and restauranteur. We'll be talking about his new book. And he had plenty to say that was relevant to this week, whether in the UK where he lives or his native Israel. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. And given our birthday, there are some extra words from me at the very end. Comfortable?

Very. Can I see your notes?

You can. Afterward. It is no exaggeration to say that this conversation is with someone whose work has reached millions. Through his cookbooks, his restaurants and on social media, he and his recipes are loved. There's no other way to sum it up. From his first deli in London 24 years ago to the present day, his name, his personal brand conjures up deliciousness and joy. pushing the boundaries, introducing even the most jaded palette to the unexpected, the new, the different. He did with tahini, zaatar, sumac, barberries. Something like what Julia Child did in introducing French cuisine to America.

Elizabeth David did for post-war food in Britain, God bless her. Mother Joffrey did for the food of South Asia. He was essentially an influencer long before that was a thing. And now he, Yotam Ottolenghi, has a new book out called Simple Too. Welcome, Yotam.

Thank you. What a lovely introduction.

Well, it is really special to have you here with us because I really do think that you embody the spirit of what we've been trying to do. And I thought, first of all, that this latest book, Simple 2, the one that we're marking tonight, it is eight years since you did the first Simple. Why was this the moment to return to the idea of a slightly less labor-intensive Ottolenghi?

I mean, firstly, I need to say that I need to take responsibility for making dinner parties complicated for a very long time. And I learn as I grow older. So the first simple book that came out eight years ago was really an attempt to compensate for that a little bit and say you can enjoy those flavors and this complexity, but with much less effort. But with this particular book, Simple, too. So I've always had in my mind the idea that there is a sequel as such, because Simple was a very popular book. But with this book, I felt, I co-authored it with Verena Lochmuller, who is one of my recipe developers and a colleague for many years.

And we were talking about, not so much about the recipe, but about the cook. Who is that person that cooks? The person that cooks in 2026 is very different from the person who cooked in 2018. I feel we've gone through so much over the last eight years.

Because of the pandemic?

Because of a multitude of factors. I mean, first of all, yes, the pandemic. And then just the sense of stress and anxiety about everything that we choose to do or not. And a lot of it comes through our screens. And when I look at what the world looks like now, it's like so much of the information that we get, we get through screens and through these sources that are Just build up to make us stressed about what we do.

And I know I mentioned the dinner party, but actually it's about what we cook in our day to day that people are conflicted because there is this kind of constant messaging that says you need to eat that or you don't need to eat that. You should be cooking better. You should be cooking in a different way. The ultimate way to make something is not the way you do it.

And we are kind of like I saw this video on TikTok for someone who made a bacon sandwich over two weeks. and he made the bread and he made the ketchup and he smoked the bacon and he cultured the butter, everything. And you think after you watch that, you think, why would I ever want to make a bacon sandwich? It's going to be subpar. So this is a joke, but in actual fact, I think we slightly suffer from that because nothing that we do looks as good as it looks on social media or nothing. And then it's about what we eat. Like we don't consume enough protein, right? Or fiber.

But I tell you something I observed from these recipes. I thought that, yes, a lot of them are quick, but they do also push the boundaries sometimes and demand something of the cook. And I wondered, I'll give a couple of examples, but I wondered whether you're trying to make people immerse themselves in the process of cooking almost as a sort of mindful act. Like you're not saying this is something you can dash off. There's always thought.

I mean, like there's a baked garlic rice where you put the whole, you slice the whole head of garlic horizontally, you put it in the rice. They're roast potatoes done, no parboiling, like sealed under foil and essentially cooked twice, but within the same pan. So I felt like you were Asking us to challenge ourselves also. There's some kind of balance there.

There's assumptions about cooking. When you go to culinary school, there is like the cuts of the vegetables and there is the processes. You saute in the pan and then you add one liquid and let that reduce and you add another one. And all those are good and they're great. They work. But sometimes you apply them when it's not really necessary. So when you develop recipes, it's really fun to kind of try to challenge those assumptions. But also in terms of the cook that buys the book, because there's so many recipes around. Like, you know, there's infinite recipes if you look online, really. There's this amazing sense of achievement when you manage to crack something, crack something that is so familiar, like a roast chicken or a

roast potato, like a tomato sauce. There's a one sauce recipe here for tomato sauce that Verena and I were working on during the summer. And all the chopping, nothing. It's just like a whole load of tomatoes with olive oil. Again, quite a lot of garlic. And it goes into the oven at 45 minutes and then you whisk it to kind of emulsify the sauce without caramelized garlic with a bit of vinegar. And it's like it revolutionized. I'm really boring my kids because that's the only thing I'm cooking this summer. But it's just that kind of like a sense like. Even something as simple as that can be reconfigured or rethought.

I'm going to confess, I haven't tried this yet, but I feel a bit unconvinced with the vinaigrette dressing that's got the spoon of English marmalade stirred into it.

Yeah, I mean, that was English marmalade and English mustard. Right.

Mustard I can take in a vinaigrette, but marmalade I wasn't sure about.

It's wonderful. Try it. Okay, I will. Especially in the kind of a festive season, you know, the Thanksgiving kind of vibe. So it's a slightly sweet vinaigrette, but it's absolutely delicious.

Okay, I will take your word for it and I will give it a try. But essentially, going back further than the original simple, we're really talking now about a near 25-year journey since you opened the first Ottolenghi in London, which, by the way, I remember because I remember seeing it and how different it looked from anything else. It had like these, you know, well, pretty much as people know now, but it was to actually see these sort of platters of meringues piled up. And, you know, it was just a visual feast as well as a culinary feast. And I thought, of course, your business is so much bigger than it was at any stage. I mean, you've now got international openings, Geneva, Amsterdam. Why have you chosen those

cities as your first expansions outside the UK?

It was a little bit opportunity based. I suppose you call it in business lingo, which is not my lingo, but I learned it a little bit. So effectively, what it was is like before the pandemic, we started talking to the Mandarin Oriental group of hotels that have a very good track record of creating very good restaurants and maintaining them. Because I was always very concerned about what it means like to not be able to just hop into the car or on a bike and try the food in my own restaurant. Like, cause that distance was causing me anxiety. And I thought like, so how do we do it? And I knew they were doing pretty good job with running restaurants for other, for chefs. And we had this long conversation. Then the pandemic came and

we rested it for a few years. And then when we started talking again, they had a couple of sites that they were thinking were good for an Ottolenghi restaurant.

Within the hotels.

Within the hotels. So the one requirement that I had that it has to be within the hotel, but also facing the street, you know, so it doesn't feel like you sit in a hotel. And the first one was in Geneva. It was a beautiful site, really kind of on the river leading to the lake. And it was just a beautiful and I thought this can work. This can work.

And I guess there's less economic risk in that model.

Yes, there is less economic risk because it's a partnership. They run it. and also it means that I can hop on a short flight and be there, and I can go once every couple of months and be reassured, and the whole exchange, even despite Brexit and everything, it's much easier for us to do things in Europe because of the similarities in culture, but also the distance.

So is it the distance that's holding you back from going to New York? Because you've clearly got, you write a column for the New York Times, you've got a big following in the US, there are quite a number of UK-based restaurants, which are expanding to New York.

I mean, it's something that we've been talking about recently, but also in the past. There's a lot of things that stop you from going to New York. It's a very, very different... business climate to the one that we're used to the way it operates in terms of more cutthroat more more in some ways and i don't have lived experience i only have what people tell me but there is more regulation on some levels in terms of like health and hygiene etc etc Not that it's easy here, but there is a lot of that. There is some unionizing.

There's a lot of things that are complicating running restaurants in New York, rents, etc. But we have looked at it and we're always looking into it. And I think it could happen, but it just hasn't happened.

You have expanded outside London now to Edinburgh. You had an opening earlier this month. What does it take to... open a restaurant in the UK's economic climate? Because there's no shortage of stories about how hard it is for hospitality businesses.

In some ways, I think it's a kind of a leap of faith because we are facing a much more difficult environment for doing business. So I've spoken about it publicly and chefs in general and restaurateurs have been talking about it, you know, VAT and the rates and national insurance and things that have gone up and of just generally what we pay for everything. And it's a much, much more difficult environment to do business in. But on the other hand, I think we all as an industry, the hospitality industry, we discovered our superpower during the pandemic.

And that is the ability to really kind of reinvent ourselves constantly through deliveries and through other experiences that we offer and a whole lot of things. I'm happy to say that my business relies on restaurants, but there's more going on. We have media, there's Substack, there's the magazines, there's the newspapers.

Without that, do you think it would be hard to keep the restaurants going?

I think it just gives you the reassurance that there's other things that are happening. The restaurants are not as profitable as they used to be. I mean, they still are. But we do grocery in supermarkets and also... But also, I think there's something about... You always remember... When you start from hospitality, you always remember the joy and the trials and tribulations of opening a restaurant. I've never given birth, but that's what I've been told. You know, that kind of idea that you just forget how hard the other time was until you face the next time. And I think there is something about opening a restaurant that is just so joyful. And we've had that in Edinburgh in the last few weeks in abundance. You know, there is

such a buzz there. There's such a sense that, wow, I mean, we've managed to, I'm not the one who should be saying these words, but I've been getting them from other people, that it's great and it feels special. And we've also tried really hard to assimilate. So using local producers, using, you know, even this is made by a Scottish fabric manufacturer that does a lot of our stuff for the staff, robes and different aprons.

Are you going to call it Ottolenghi tweed?

Ottolenghi tweed if you want to. We have an Ottolenghi whiskey as well. So it's like there was something so special about coming there and really doing something special there. Yeah.

I mean, you may have been talking about this as in the hospitality industry, but let's face it. The pubs have done better. The pubs are the ones which have got a cut in rates, right, from the government. The restaurants have not. What do you think is going on? Because, I mean, I know what pub snacks Andy Burnham likes. Yeah.

I've seen him pulling pints. I know what his favorite pubs are, whether in London or Manchester. So, you know, you guys have not captured the attention of the government.

I feel we were slightly cheated out of this new arrangement because I don't understand why pubs, yes, and restaurants not got this latest cut. And I think for some reason, maybe I understand because in some people's mind, Restaurants are a luxury and pubs are an essential, but I think we do the same. We have a similar contribution to society in the sense that we are the last man standing in terms of centers of community, all the things that have gone, so many shops, so many community centers, so many of the other institutions. Where people go out to a restaurant, it doesn't need to be an expensive restaurant.

A restaurant covers a whole lot of styles and types. they socialize, they get together. And I think pubs do the same. And I just don't understand why they got it and we didn't. And I can only guess.

Well, what do you think is going on?

Well, I suppose it is a little bit about restaurant being perceived as posh or cosmopolitan or London-centric. I don't know what it is. I mean, there's restaurants all over the country, so I don't know exactly what the explanation is. But I think we should get it because I think that we supply a service that is so essential and I feel it every day when people go to the restaurant.

They leave something behind and they come like there's this kind of wonderful openness to have a conversation, to engage. We also have, and this is the entry point for employment, everybody or many people start their way in restaurants and pubs as front of house, as kitchen porters, as chefs or commie chefs. It's just that place. And if we lose that, then like what's left?

I suppose in a cost of living crisis, you can have a cheaper night out in the pub versus a restaurant. Although admittedly, it depends how many pints, you know, or other.

But also restaurant really train, you know, we train people in really very important skills. Many pubs are not all pubs. And I hate that it's a competition. So I don't want to even go down that route. But we train them at skill, at really important skills from bar, from mixing, from serving to cooking. There's a whole lot of, Skills involved.

And we're talking about how we build our economy. And it has to start with these particular skills. Otherwise, everything comes out of a factory.

So it is budget week. Just spell out your ask. What are you dreaming of?

Well, I mean, the biggest thing is the reduction in VAT. So much of what we earn goes into VAT.

More than business rates.

I mean, business rates also. But an easy solution, an easier solution is because we've had it and it came back up. is kind of a magic bullet that you can do with less thought and with a quick solution. And I think this would make a big, big difference to all of us. And it really doesn't help that every pound that goes into the till, 20p goes to government.

When you think about it, it's really kind of infuriating.

And you, of course, have really made this country your home over more than 25 years because you moved here in 1997. And I think you went to culinary school here. I mean, I have to ask you, how did your parents react? Because your parents are, you know, your father's a university academic. Your mother was a teacher. So how did they feel about you going to Cordon Bleu?

They were slighted. Well, I think they would. I'm Asian.

I'm asking because I think I can imagine what they felt.

It wasn't the best day.

Yeah.

My father, especially, it was really, I started on an academic career. I did a master's degree at university, and he really felt that I'm wasting my career on something. What was your subject? I studied philosophy and literature, and I did representation in the arts from a philosophical point of view, especially photography, which actually ties in quite nicely to how obsessed I am with the photographs in my books, because I'm all... Well, the one bit in the book that I love the most in making a book is the photography weeks, you know, when we shoot the recipe.

So I guess that maybe connects to what I did. But they wanted the best for me and they thought they knew what was best for me. And I think as far as they're concerned, like every concerned parents, they know better than a 26-year-old person that thinks that they can conquer the world through food. But it doesn't really work that way 90% of the time.

What was the moment where you felt like you had proved to them? Like, what did you have to achieve before they were like, OK, maybe this... cookery thing isn't so bad.

My father was, he passed away a few years ago and he was such a kind-hearted person despite the fact that he wanted to control my career. He really was the kindest, most generous person. So he came in to the opening of the Ottolenghi shop on Ledbury Road in Notting Hill all those years ago, 25 years ago, 24 years ago. And he assigned himself as the official photographer of the event and he loved photography. So he came with a camera and he sent me later a whole selection of images that he shot. And still the only pictures that I have of the early days are by him, good photographs. So I think it was his way of saying that he's come to terms with this.

I was thinking before we spoke today about the first time that you and I met and it was a very special moment actually involving someone who's right here tonight because I had the privilege of watching you and Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe cook together for BBC Radio and it was she had recently returned from six years as a hostage in Iran and And she had said to the program team that she'd cooked one of your recipes in prison. And because of that, we brought the two of you together.

And I remember it was quite an extraordinary experience for me, certainly watching you both, but I guess for you too, to think how far your recipes have traveled. This extraordinary and unexpected and very difficult setting.

It's nice to have you here, by the way. I was absolutely shocked that I got an email a year or two earlier from Nazanin, from Iran, telling me about her experience cooking my recipes in prison with her prison mates. And I absolutely was absolutely sure it was a hoax. You know, I got an email and I thought this cannot be that. And I had someone who knew Richard who contacted Richard to confirm that it was Nazanin because I thought, what is the likelihood for this thing to happen?

And today you get a lot of these things because they are generated by AI. But this was quite a few years back. And when Nazanin came back to the UK and was released from Iran, I felt, you know, at some point we will meet and you facilitated that. And we met and we cooked together. We cooked rice. Because for me, rice, there's a lot of rice. You mentioned the rice recipe. There's a lot of rice recipes in all of my books. It might sound a bit, you know, a bit cliche, but it's a grain of life. And, you know, when we were cooking rice in my kitchen at home, your rice with saffron and crispy bottom. And for me, this is for me, this is this ability to kind of be together in a room. And you were interviewing us. But in a way, it was an

incredible connection through food. And I find often, you know, we were talking about the book Jerusalem and that I co-authored with Sami Tamimi, who is Palestinian. all those years ago, and it was a tough job to do then, it would have been impossible to do now, to tell a story of these two cultures coming together. And both Sami and I felt quite strongly that maybe food is the only way in which you can actually tell that particular story.

And I don't know that we've done total justice to it, but we at least tried. And I think that kind of attempt to be with Nazanin in the kitchen and kind of try to break into This experience of sitting in prison all those years and all the trauma and all the heartache and all the difficulties, actually food was the most incredible way to deflect, to kind of talk about something else.

And the other part of that that really was a moment, I think, where you and I... were both totally speechless was when Nazanin described being on hunger strike in prison and the experience of going without food. And I thought of it again when I saw your post in May last year responding to the scarcity of food and the lack of access to food in Gaza. I mean, what are your reflections now? Because heritage has been such an important part. You've brought your heritage to your work. Your original collaborator was a Palestinian.

In some ways, there's so little I can say about what has been happening in Gaza and Israel and the West Bank over the last three years that would shed any more light on the horrific events that have unfolded. I feel pain on both sides. I've got friends on one side, family and friends on the other side. And I feel that there's just so much suffering going on.

And I only feel that kind of almost the only way I can speak about it is through food. And I did post about what has happened in Gaza, because I thought that was, that was for me a moment in which I thought, how could it be that food, which is, you know, the life force that I've mentioned, could be used in such a way to conduct this war?

It just felt so terrible. And again, because I come from food, because that's the language that I speak, this was an opportunity for me to speak out and say what I thought.

So you're saying that a book like this, Jerusalem, about one of the most extraordinary and remarkable, but also contested cities, a book like this written by an Israeli and a Palestinian would just not be possible today well you two.

Couldn't write not today not today and i have to say something else not today definitely not because it's so i mean we all know we all see it and we all hear it constantly because it's just the way it is but i think even then people wanted to see sammy and myself as like the poster boys of like you know peace in the middle east But in some ways, we have always deflected that and said, I felt that it's really important to also clarify that we live in London. So it's not put to the challenge in Jerusalem. And we met in London. It's not put to the challenge against the day-to-day tribulations of what's going on in Jerusalem, in Gaza, in the West Bank. It's just events are just so viscerally difficult and complicated. And

The best intentions often are shattered. I mean, we all felt that way after October 7th. The best intentions on both sides have been shattered in the face of the horrificness of events.

We are on the verge of the Israeli election.

Yes. I'm going to go there tomorrow to vote, actually.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. I'm flying tomorrow morning. For how long? For just the day.

Just the day you are going to cast your vote?

Yeah, just the day I'm going to do that, yeah.

Have you ever done that before?

No, it's the first time. It's the first time. I'm coming back at night, yeah.

That's quite a commitment.

Yeah, I just think there's just too much at stake, and I feel that it's... I've been under a lot of pressure from my family to come back and vote this time, and I've never been under this pressure. But I also feel personally that it is a very crucial moment, and I think a lot rests on these elections.

I wonder how you'll actually... feel like casting your vote tomorrow, like the added layer of responsibility you'll feel given the events of the last few years?

Probably very emotional. I mean, it's probably just everything, you know, it has been a very terrible period. I don't know. Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be very emotional.

Can you see yourself opening in Israel and Ottolenghi in Israel?

I don't know. Not anytime soon, no. There is, like I said about the, the book Jerusalem. I think at the moment, it's just too fresh, too hot, too complicated. I really, really hope that some, I mean, what happens in Israel is also echoes around the world. And I don't think that we also, I mean, I want to take it a slightly away from there, not because I want to, there is an intention not to talk, but I think there is just so very little hope happening in different kind of, in different parts of the world that I find it very difficult to kind of convey a hopeful message of that sort just now.

We are nearly out of time. I wanted to close with a quickfire round. Are you up for that?

Always.

I'll ask you to make some choices. I'll ask you to give us your thoughts in a nugget. I'm not going to ask you to choose between Netanyahu and Eisenhower.

Don't worry. I'll keep that to myself. Exactly.

That's your privilege. Okay, so quickfire to close. Nigella or Nigel Slater?

Oh, I'll go for Nigella. She's a friend, so yeah. Okay, okay.

Poor Nigel.

Yeah, Nigel is great.

Gordon Ramsay or Marco Pierre White?

Oh, gosh, you are putting me on the spot. I don't know. Can I pass? No, no, I can't. Gordon Ramsay, I suppose. Right. I'm not going to give you.

Because he's slightly less... Angry in the kitchen?

I mean, I don't know. I've never worked in either of their kitchens. I don't think Gordon is as angry as he seems on the screen from what I hear. All right.

Then the really important stuff, aubergines or courgettes?

Aubergines. I mean, courgettes are great. I love courgettes, but aubergines just give you, they just give you more. Right. Okay.

Tahini or date syrup?

Well, tahini any day. You can, date syrup is also great. You're just putting me in a difficult position, but it's like, it's replaceable. Well, tahini is irreplaceable.

Okay, I'm kind of regretting the next one because I know the answer. Tahini or pomegranate molasses?

Same answer.

Tahini or feta? Because you do love your feta.

Yeah, I do love feta. I'm still going to vote for tahini because I just need to be consistent.

But feta comes closer than the date syrup or the pomegranate molasses.

Yeah, because feta is great. And also everything tastes better with feta. I had to say that.

If you don't have barberries, what can you substitute that with?

Barberries are great. And I love barberries. They kind of aren't really replaceable. But if you need to do certain things, then you can soak some currants in like lime syrup and you get that kind of sweetness and acidity and they're small enough to do a little bit of that work, but not quite.

But really just look harder for the barberries.

All right.

Substitute za'atar with.

I mean, za'atar is... a herb that can be substituted with other herbs like marjoram, oregano, thyme. So yes, it's not the same, but you can substitute it.

Okay, fine. The UK government has advised people to stock up on three days' worth of emergency supplies. Angela Rayner wants Sauvignon Blanc as her non-essential essential. What's yours?

The non-essential essential. Oh God, I need to come up with a good answer for that. I suppose like more recently I'd have a couple of jars of miso. It just also, it's a bit like feta. It's just like you add it to sauces, you add it to things and it does, it does. a really good job but it will be tahini.

Your last meal would be.

Um i would go for something unexpected here you're not going to hear tahini spaghetti alla vongole Which my father was Italian. And whenever we went traveling in Italy, he always ordered that in every restaurant in such an annoying way. But because like, why not try something else? But I do think it's one of those things that you just, it's just perfect when it's done right.

I thought it might be rice-based, given your love of rice, but you've gone for something else.

I just wanted to cover something, a different thing. Okay.

And finally, Yotam, Jerusalem or London?

Oh, gosh, you are killing me. I left Jerusalem. I live in London, so I choose London.

Because it is a better city or certainly a less.

Complex city, perhaps. I think it's less conflicted. It's easier to live in. And Jerusalem, you do have 3,000 years of history weighing on your little shoulders. And London is slightly shorter history, I believe.

We'll take it here in London. Yota Motolengi, thank you so much.

Thank you.

So, because... Because this is a live podcast recording, I do have a little more to say. The Michelle Hussain Show producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlew. Andy Haywood produces and edits our video. Guest booking is by Elan Bird. Social media by John Horsfall. Production assistants from Indira Ray and the executive producer is Louisa Lewis. On this one year anniversary, I want to say thank you to them for what we do together worldwide. Week after week, or as I now understand it in the industry parlance, we are always on. Our music was composed by Bart Warshaw.

Max Richter, who's a forthcoming episode, listened the other day and told us it was perky, which we will take. At Bloomberg Weekend, thanks to Brendan Francis Newnham and our executive editor, Catherine Bell, who's here from New York for tonight. Cheryl Bromley leads Bloomberg Podcast. I'd also like to thank David Merritt and John Micklethwaite for their faith in what we could do together. Many others at Bloomberg have been and are part of what you have seen here. Victoria Wakely, John Canfield, Roman Makovits and all who make the technical magic happen. Katie Boyce, Alex Morgan, Penny Crook, Adam Blenford, Sarah Muller and Jackie Bischoff. Plus Shelby Siegel, Michelle Bassett and friend of the show and Bloomberg Philanthropy Supremo, Gemma Reid.

I can now deliver the happy news. that Ottolenghi-inspired canapes and drinks are waiting for all of you next door. But before I let you go, I will say, please do listen back to any of the episodes you might have missed. To this, when it comes out, please spread the word. And as my executive producer, Louisa Lewis, always firmly says, leave a review. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being part of this. Thank you, Yotam. And until the next time, goodbye.

Yotam Ottolenghi on Simple Food in Complicated Times

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