7 Reasons I Didn't Go to AA (And What I Got Wrong) with Stefanie Wilder-Taylor

0:03 Welcome to the No More Wasted Days podcast. I'm your host, Sarah, and today is going to be such a fun episode for you to listen to. I have my friend Stephanie Wilder-Taylor as a guest on the podcast, and we are talking about all things 12-step programs. So I have a short form video that I post on social media from time to time, and it's seven reasons why I decided not to do AA. And Stephanie and I are actually going to go through the seven reasons that I said I didn't want to do AA when I first quit drinking.

0:32 And since she actually has real life experience in a 12 step program, unlike me, she's going to tell you where I'm wrong and where I'm right. I have to say I'm so excited for you to listen to this episode because when I was editing it, I was laughing out loud. And just imagine I had already lived the conversation in real life. So it was my second time to hear us. And if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know who Stephanie Wilder Taylor is, then I need you to go follow her in a few places because you're going to love her. She is the host of the Drunkish podcast, and she's also the author of the book Drunkish. Drunkish is one of my favorite quitlet books, and I recommend it to everyone when

1:09 they're starting their alcohol-free journey. It's going to make you laugh out loud while you're listening or reading, and you're going to feel so much less alone because Stephanie is so real about her journey. Stephanie also has two other podcasts that don't have to do about sobriety, but are just as good. The first one I want you to go check out is for Crying Out Loud. I've actually been a longtime listener of this podcast. I think I've been listening to it for 12 years now. And if you happen to have kids that are teenagers or older, you're so going to get it because the two hosts, Stephanie and Lynette, talk all about their experiences with their kids.

1:42 And then the other podcast is Rose Pricks, where Stephanie breaks down different pop culture shows like The Bachelor and I think maybe The Real Housewives. So go check those out as well. I'll be sure to link everything in the show notes. Now let's get into this conversation. Welcome to the podcast again, Stephanie. Thank you so much for being on. You're going to be a regular. Did you know that?

2:01 I want to. Oh, good. Once a week. And you'll only do one episode a week and I'll be on every episode.

2:08 Oh, OK. So basically we're becoming co-hosts at this point.

2:12 I'm just going to be your unpaid co-host.

2:14 Yeah. Oh, OK. See, that works perfectly. So I wanted to have you on because you did a 12 step program. And I think that sometimes people on the Internet, people on social media think I'm like the anti 12 step lady. And part of that is because I'll go on and I will share my story about why I chose not to do a program like AA because I had all these ideas about it. Now, and I always try to tell people I have no idea if these ideas are real.

2:42 They're purely my thoughts. And I share them because I want people to know you can quit drinking without doing any sort of program really. But I know you did a 12-step program and are still currently part of that program. Would you mind telling us first, just let me back up just a little bit. What we're going to do when we get into the meat of the episode is I have this TikTok that I'll post.

3:06 I don't know.

3:06 I post it like once a year still, but I made it probably three years ago. Every time I post it, it goes pretty viral because I say things about AA, which are my thoughts of why I chose not to do it. And it makes the AA people very angry and I can totally see why. But it also allows people to see, oh, I have all those thoughts too.

3:26 And she quit drinking. I can quit drinking. I don't have to do all those things. So I wanted to have somebody on here that actually has some experience to make all this a little less scary. So if you're someone like I am that's going, oh my God, I'm so afraid to do any sort of program. Is that what I have to do? You can hear somebody like Stephanie talk and it won't sound as scary. And I think my recovery would have moved along much faster if I would have done some sort of program. So with all that being said, will you share your experience with getting into a 12-step program? Because I know you went to a meeting when you were still drinking to support a friend. And then I know you eventually went as like, OK,

4:10 I'm doing this.

4:11 I would love to speak on this. And I have I probably have some feelings that are going to reinforce your fear. And then I have other I have other experience and feelings that might make people feel better. But for one, the first time I ever went to a meeting was with a friend who was very clearly an alcoholic.

4:30 It was just one of those things where every time this guy came even if he had one drink, he was already starting slurring. And it was so clear to me, oh yeah, this is what alcoholism looks like. So when I was at the meeting with him, I did feel like it was a little culty because people were so, well, in my, how do I put this? Where I was in my life, which was probably drinking too much, I was probably in a defensive, you know, so the people were In looking back, they were just being friendly and saying, like, how long have you been sober? And I was like, bitch, I'm not. I'm fine.

5:05 I don't even need to be here.

5:06 Yeah, exactly. I'm here with a friend. Jesus Christ. You know what I mean? I was very like, oh, my God, they just want everybody to be an alcoholic. But that was a lot of my own brain because. With my experience now, I'm like, oh, those people were just trying to be nice and help and thought maybe I was new.

5:22 Because a lot of times you see the same people at the same meetings. So if somebody new is there, you want to go, hi.

5:32 How are you? Like, how long have you been sober?

5:34 Welcome. How can I help?

5:35 Are you new?

5:36 Are you just visiting? So I think that's what they were doing. But I was very put off. And I think you're referring to a chapter in my book, Drunkish, where I, out of boredom, took the 20 questions. They had a little pamphlet that was, are you an alcoholic? And it was 20 questions. And even though I got, I said yes to all of them, I was still like, oh my God, these AA people are so strict. This is ridiculous. They just want everybody to be an alcoholic. Okay, but many years later, because it was probably 10 years much later. I had a friend who was sober. I'd gone to, I'd gone to a meeting before when I really did want to quit drinking. And that was when my older daughter was two. And then I went to

6:23 a meeting and I cried and I was like, I don't want to be like a drunk mom. And I did the things, but then I was like, I can do this on my own. I don't need all this. It seemed like a lot. And, but it was fun. Cause there was like a celebrity there. And I was like, know. I live in LA.

6:41 You're in LA.

6:41 Yeah. Yeah. So there was like somebody from a show that I loved and I was like, oh, this is a little bit cool. So anyway, but I was like, I don't know. It's kind of scary and I don't want to do all that. And then I stayed sober, but then I got pregnant with twins right away and I was sober. Then I had the twins and then I was like, look at this. I have been sober for a long time. My twins were born early. So I Let's say they came at eight months and I was already had six weeks before that. So I was like, it's been almost a year without drinking. I could probably start up again and be fine. And I found out, as you know, in my story that it was not fine.

7:23 So the reason that I went back to meetings was because I didn't have another idea. At that point, I tried to moderate. I tried to quit on my own. I tried going to a meeting and then doing it myself. And I was like, I have Three young kids. I cannot go to rehab like I can't. And also I wasn't convinced I had alcoholism. So, yeah, I was like rehab would be overshooting the mark. I don't I didn't to be totally honest. I didn't even have a physical dependence on alcohol on alcohol when I quit. I had no physical withdrawals at all because I don't think I was ever drinking that much. It was the emotional dependence.

8:04 It was the I have to have this at the end of the day. And it was the unpredictability. It was sometimes I'd have two drinks, but sometimes I'd have four and wake up really hungover. Yeah. And on a weekend when I went out, if I was like having margaritas, I could very easily just get drunk and drunk. humiliate myself and I was like this is not cute anymore so when I decided I feel desperate to quit drinking I called the only person who I knew who was sober and she went to meetings so I was like I don't have any ideas I need help and she said let me take you to a meeting And I was not in a position to be like, but I don't want to do that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

8:45 And we say in 12-step meetings, I wish you desperation. I wish for people to be out of ideas. Because if you think you have another way that's going to be a little bit easier, you might not. Listen, and I do know I have my own podcast. I have talked to people all the time. Tons of them don't do 12-step programs. So I know that you don't have to go to a 12 step meeting to get sober.

9:11 But for me, it was easier than trying to figure it out myself. I didn't know there. I don't think there was this was 17 years ago. I don't think there was maybe there were certain programs or something called like the Matrix program. But I don't think there was women for sobriety. I don't think there was smart recovery.

9:30 That's what I was wondering. And like Dharma recovery is out there.

9:34 I don't, I didn't know of these things. So I went to the meeting with my friend and the thing that I found there when I really wanted to be there and wanted the help was just the feeling of I, I'm not the only one. And that was really important at that stage. Cause I had a lot of shame. I had a lot of, I'm the worst mom in the world. What mom drinks and drives, what mom gets hammered every, you know, what mom is hung over, what mom is already starting to drink at 6 PM. And I don't know, I had a lot of shame and I was like, I'm not, I can't really go on this way. with young kids. It's a lot. It's already a lot.

10:13 I was still kind of postpartum.

10:15 My twins were only 18 months. So again, that desperation helped me overlook a lot of the things that are super fucking irritating about 12 step. So that didn't go away. It wasn't like I was like, OK, let me be part of your cult because I'm just so desperate. It was like, oh, this is going to be work.

10:37 Yeah. And that when we you hear my reasons, some of them when I say them, I do go, oh, my God, I was just trying to find the easy way out. I was trying to find the easy button. And I was like, I can just do this by myself. And I always tell people I was like, I want to do it by myself because that means I don't have a problem. And I was like, only people who need to go to meetings have a problem. And I desperately did not want to have a problem.

11:06 But I totally relate to that. My only thinking was, I just don't want to drink again. I didn't feel like I had any more tries.

11:14 Yeah, you were like done at that point. Because I even still had that little voice in the back of my head saying, maybe you can take a break and you'll get better. Which takes me to point number one, because I was going to go through my seven things.

11:28 Go for it.

11:29 You can totally be like, that one's just bullshit.

11:31 I'd love to. In another life, I was a therapist. So let me add it.

11:36 Oh, good.

11:36 Good.

11:37 Perfect.

11:37 I always fancied myself like an Ann Landers, like having a cool advice column. I love telling people that they're full of shit.

11:45 Especially in that way, you could almost do it in an anonymous way. So you could really say the thing. I love that. But feel free to be Ann Landers on any of these. Because also know too, like I recorded this TikTok probably in, I want to say 2023. A lot has changed for me since then. I was still smoking weed when I made this. So of course I didn't want to do a 12 step program then.

12:07 And I think at that point I was just starting to go like, oh, I think I'm an alcoholic. Like I, and I had already been sober for three years. So I was a slow learner, like I say. So one of the reasons I didn't want to go to a meeting when I first quit, I didn't want to quit forever because And I was really under the impression that if I went to a meeting, I had to decide right then I'm quitting forever. And I also felt like I was going to have to tell everybody I'm quitting and I go to meetings now. So is this something that is actually promoted within meetings? You're here now. You quit forever.

12:39 Here's the thing. What a lot of people don't understand is that 12-step meetings are not, there's no boss. There's nobody's in charge of you. There's no leaders. So you can go to a meeting and never go back, or you could go to a meeting every week for the rest of your life, and nobody is going to tell you what to do unless you're asking them, like, what should I do? Now, does that mean that no one's going to judge you and be like, that person's probably not going to stay sober if they're not doing any of the things we do. Yeah. But there's judgmental people everywhere.

13:11 Everywhere.

13:11 Of course. So for me, I had that same fear. And I also, it feels very final to go to a meeting and say, I'm an alcoholic, which I know is also on your list. And I want to talk about that. But the reason is, that AA works for some people is because it is a program of abstinence. So if you're... We people in 12-step meetings know that trying to moderate didn't work for us. Do you know what I mean? By the time you get to a 12-step meeting, you're probably done experimenting. So I understand the hesitation if you're like, maybe I could just... take a break or learn to control it better. But I don't think that you're the only person. I think there's plenty of people go to meetings and they're like, you know what,

13:55 I'm going to do this for a year and then I'm going to try it again.

13:58 And a lot of them do.

13:59 Yeah.

14:00 And it's an open, it's an open, I always tell people anyway, it's always your choice, even if you did go to a meeting and which I can see now. And one thing I've learned from people who have done meetings that have also worked with me or just that I've met through the podcast is is that it really is you make the choice not to drink today. You make the choice not to drink in this moment. There really is never that forever choice that you're making. And I was like, oh. And that's something I never would have guessed or understood at the point that I was at because I was just like, I'll just quit for 30 days.

14:35 So I was past thinking that I'm going to quit for 30 days.

14:38 Yeah, yeah.

14:38 But I was pre- thinking I'm actually an alcoholic. I was like, I don't like that label. I don't really like that word. I don't think it applies to me. Looking back, I think that's kind of funny because who cares? Looking back, I'm like, it doesn't matter. And I freely will say I'm an alcoholic. I have alcoholism because I just, I'm trying to reduce the stigma of it, but it's such a spectrum. The thing that we all have in common is drinking isn't great for us. We make bad decisions.

15:08 We can't predict how much we're going to drink. We don't have an off switch. If I could safely say, okay, when it's important, I will keep it to one, then I would never have quit.

15:19 Yeah, exactly. And there is that point where you have to learn that about yourself, too. And I think most people learn that about themselves once they've really quit. And you're like, oh, I could never go back. I was so problematic. But it leads perfectly into because you were saying I didn't want to be an alcoholic, which we've both said. So I felt if I went to a meeting, I had to stand up. It's a non-negotiable, which I'm sure it's not. And I was going to stand up and say, hi, I'm Sarah and I'm an alcoholic. And at that point in my life, there was no way I was going to say that because I was kind of like, maybe. I was like, can I add a maybe at the end of the sentence if I go?

15:59 I might be an alcoholic.

16:00 I'm thinking about it.

16:01 Okay. So you hit me at the right time with this question because so one of the traditions in 12-step meetings is the only requirement for membership is a desire to quit drinking. So you should not have to say, hi, my name's Sarah. I'm an alcoholic if you're not feeling that. You belong there as long as you're like, I have a desire to quit drinking. Now, does that mean that people frickin respect that? No. And the I was at a meeting recently and somebody just goes, hi, I'm Marsha.

16:36 And some bitch who is like in the row of chairs that I was sitting in was like, are you an alcoholic?

16:42 That would be my biggest fear. I'd be like, I'm never coming back.

16:45 So I swear to God, I was telling I was talking to people afterwards. I was like, what the fuck? That is not what we do here. That's ridiculous. And then the person ended up sharing about the fact that they felt bad that they said that. But they were like, what? But I'm like, there's really no excuse for that because that person that that person will never come back. And who wrote that? It is nowhere near. In the book or in the rule, there's no rule that says you have to say it. At the meeting that I go to, they say, now we're going to go around the room and state our name and our disease because it's a closed meeting. So that means you have to feel like you have a problem to be there. But again, you

17:27 only have to have a desire to quit drinking. So if you wanted to say, hi, I'm Sarah and nothing else, Technically, nobody should say shit to you. That's totally fine. And I that's why I was like, oh, my God, that's not this is horrible. That person's not going to come back. And for what? For somebody's ego to be like, hey, you better say you're an alcoholic.

17:48 Why?

17:48 Plenty of people. Our door is open for people that don't think they're an alcoholic. But if you want to quit drinking, you want to quit drinking. Who cares if you put a label on it?

17:57 Yeah, that's what always gets me now. I was so afraid of that label and now I could care less about the label. It's funny because my daughter will sometimes say, well, my mom is an alcoholic. And I kind of look at her like, hey. But sometimes I'm like, whoa, whoa. Not everybody needs to know everything here. Right, right, right.

18:15 But it has been.

18:16 And she kind of looked at me afterwards and she goes, aren't you? And I was like, well, yeah. But I was so like. What the hell? Don't be outing me to just anybody. It's usually at a doctor's appointment, too, because they're like, any history of drinking? And I'm sitting there like, not even thinking about it. And she's like, oh, my mom. And I'm like, hey. Hello. In recovery. It's like, and now I'm just like, oh, yeah, who cares? And I've had to really let go of one thing I've really started to understand more is that saying that like other people's, what other people think of me is none of my business. And I didn't understand that saying for a long time. But I think in recovery, you really start to learn that because you're like, who cares if

18:57 they think I'm a drunk or whatever, all the negative words that I were a dry drunk or all these different things. I'm like, who cares? I know who I am. And I don't need to know have their validation. But I'm like, I appreciate that you don't actually and I've heard from many people like you don't have to say that at a meeting. Don't let that hold you back.

19:16 Go and try it and see. And then hopefully, Your lady won't be there being like, are you an alcoholic?

19:22 Oh, my God. Unbelievable. It made me so mad. It's not what should go on. And it doesn't matter. Closed meeting, open meeting. You should be able to just say, hey, I'm Sarah. And people are going to come over to you and go, how are you? Most people are really nice. And there's no the thing is that there's just this misconception that there's all these rules. Go on because you have more. I know I have a huge list. Yeah, go on. I'm sure I'll hit that.

19:49 I've heard the next one is wrong from many AA people whenever I post this, but this is what I said in the thing. And I said, I don't want to commit time to physical meetings. And I remember that deeply, but I'm a person who will always use busy as an excuse. But then I put I was afraid to do the 30 meetings in 30 days, which I've now heard is actually more.

20:09 90 meetings in 90 days. Which is worse. So when I first got sober and I heard that people were suggesting that to people, I was like, you're still high if you think that I'm going to be doing 90 meetings in 90 days. I have three small children. It's hard enough to come to a meeting. I'm getting texts from my husband. hey, where are the kids' shoes? Where's the string cheese? Where's the whatever? You know what I mean?

20:31 My husband was white knuckling every meeting that I went to. I was like, I'm not getting away every single day to go drive to a meeting. That's just not happening. But at the beginning, I was pretty desperate to stay sober. So I definitely was going to three or four a week.

20:48 But it's definitely not a requirement.

20:51 There's no requirements. The only requirement is a desire to quit drinking. Literally. There's no, like I said, there's no boss. Okay. So in 12 step, you get a sponsor. You can have a sponsor. You don't have to have one, but there's people that are dying to help you through the steps. Now, some of these people are fucked up because they're just another alcoholic. You know what I mean? So they have control issues or they're codependent or they're like, oh, I'm so glad I'm going to be sponsoring you. Here's all my rules. All you have to do is be like, no, thanks.

21:26 I don't like that. And I've heard that too. And that's like all the things that I've learned slowly. You don't actually have to have a sponsor. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. So the next one I had, I feel like we touched on this one pretty good, but I was really afraid of the stigma that if I went to meetings, I had to be an alcoholic forever.

21:44 And at that time, I couldn't even say I was an alcoholic. So what are your, I guess, what are your thoughts? Because we talked on, you don't have to say you're an alcoholic at a meeting. What are your thoughts on once you quit drinking and you feel good in your sobriety? Do you still say, I mean, I know you do, but I'm an alcoholic. And is there anything within that for the 12 steps that goes with that?

22:06 Did that make sense? Well, like you've been sober for 17 years and you still say, I'm an alcoholic.

22:13 Yeah, because I'm just used to it. And plus, if I'm in a meeting, who cares? I'm with other people that are all feeling the same, saying the same thing.

22:21 Exactly.

22:22 It's not like I walk into a kid's birthday party and go, hi, I'm Stephanie. I'm an alcoholic. It's not.

22:27 That's so funny because that's what I pictured, which is so dumb.

22:31 No, it's just when I'm at a meeting with other alcoholics, especially if it's a closed meeting where only people who identify with having alcoholism go to. There's no rules. You don't have to say it. Also, what if you go to a meeting and then you... What if you go to meetings for a couple of years and then you decide, I don't think I'm an alcoholic?

22:52 Okay.

22:53 Then you stop going to meetings. Yeah, and it's okay. Unless it's court ordered, which I don't agree with, by the way, because it's such a personal thing. Like, you could force somebody to go to meetings because of their DUI and they're not going to stay sober if they don't feel like they have a problem. You have to want to get help. Now, if you are... struggling and you do the deal and you do the work of it and you will discover things about yourself. And after all of that, you're like, you know what? I really don't identify with being an alcoholic and I think I could drink again. People are going to be like, fantastic.

23:29 Go have, and I know people who went to AA for a while and then stopped and are fine. Yeah. So it's not a death sentence. It's not like, well, if you come to a meeting, you better know that you're forever an alcohol.

23:43 I mean, it's you're in handcuffs for life.

23:46 I think people do feel like, oh, my God, if I've gone to meetings and told people I went to meetings, then if they see me with a drink in my hand, it's going to be freaking Brad Pitt. They're going to be like, yeah, I thought you're an alcoholic. You shouldn't be drinking. I changed my mind because I have free will.

24:03 And I think that was the part, too. I always tell people that even, too, when they do my 100-day challenge.

24:07 You have free will. I'm not going to do whatever you want to. You paid for a 100-day challenge, so I think you should do 100 days alcohol-free. But you want to drink on day 101? Go for it. You've got more knowledge now, and you can decide. And I think that knowing that now has helped me so much. But in the beginning, I really did think, I'm going to tell my mom I'm an alcoholic. I'm so afraid of my mom. I'm 47. I don't want my mom to know.

24:33 But I feel like people that support you are not going to. What if you were to just tell people close to you?

24:41 Yeah.

24:41 You go to meetings if you want to share that with them and not tell everybody if you're not sure. And most people that I know that have been in the program for years aren't super open about it.

24:53 Yeah.

24:54 It's not every time I'm hanging out, I go, hey. I'm a friend of Bill W., just so you know. I go to a lot of meetings. Like, nope.

25:02 I don't do that. Like, you meet someone for the first person. Just FYI. I'm an alcoholic. Elky. Yeah. Things could get crazy if I drink, so I don't anymore.

25:11 Do you have 30 minutes that I could tell you all about it?

25:14 Do you want to hear about it? Could we just go to a corner and be like, actually, I have a podcast if you'd like to sit and listen to episodes with me.

25:20 We can listen together and I can answer questions, so.

25:23 Person's like, no, let's not be friends. So... The next one, this one's still a big one. This one is still big with me. I still, I struggle with this one because it was that I did not want to admit that I was powerless against alcohol. And I struggle because I like to say, like, I'm more powerful than alcohol.

25:40 I have the upper hand. But I also know I can't drink. If I start drinking, it's going to be the same old song and dance.

25:48 So.

25:49 I go a little bit back and forth, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this one.

25:53 So I hear this all the time. I feel like this is a very common thing that people go, it's just not empowering to say I'm powerless. But are you in control of it? Like if you are going to a meeting.

26:07 Yeah.

26:08 Aren't you basically admitting that I've kind of lost control of this and I'm not in control? Like, I mean, for me, it was kind of easy because I was like, once I start drinking, it seems like a good idea to have more. So who is in control here? It just seems like if I'm powerful, if I'm very powerful, then why do I need to quit drinking then? Because then I clearly don't have a problem.

26:31 Yep.

26:31 So I guess I don't under I don't even understand the thinking behind it. Not I'm not saying it. maybe it's valid because a lot of people say that a lot of people are like, I don't love all that stuff about I'm powerless. That makes you feel that's negative. I want to feel I'm empowered, but empowered to what?

26:49 To drink?

26:50 Yeah, because it's not working out. Like, yeah. And I think that's the main thing. I think that it's really the feeling powerful in your sobriety and realizing like for me, I realized I was sobriety was the key all along. And why was I trying to keep something in my life that was making everything so much harder and was giving me blackouts and terrible hangovers and all the things.

27:14 So I think it's more that, and it's definitely, that makes me kind of go, I should really change how I think about it. Like how I say it, even like finding power and sobriety, I think is totally different than saying I'm powerless against alcohol because now even struggling with weed too, and knowing like, I just can't do substances.

27:36 It's oh, yeah, because I'm an addict, which is funny because I could say I was an addict before I could say I was an alcoholic. And I'm always like, they're all the same.

27:46 You can also go into a meeting and say, I'm Sarah, I'm an addict.

27:49 Yeah, that's what people even said. And they were like, just OK. And so I like that how you put it, too. You're you're not you are powerless, though, because when you drink. It always turns into too much.

28:01 I always think of it like this. I'm powerless over the second drink.

28:05 Ooh, I like that.

28:05 I'm powerful in my sobriety. I'm powerful in choosing not to take the first drink.

28:11 Yeah.

28:11 If I have a drink, then I suddenly feel powerless over the next drink because it's going to seem like a good idea because I like to drink. I like the feeling. I love the mellowness. I love how it takes the edge off. I love so many things about it. I also just don't have... a thing in my brain that goes like, you feel good. So you don't need to do it anymore. And I'm the same way with a lot of things. Like you said, I'm that way with cookies. If I have one cookie, I'm probably going to have more than one. So am I powerless over cookies? Yeah, pretty much. But if I don't have any cookies, then I'm powerful over the choice. I have the power to choose not to have a drink. Yes. And that's what I got from meetings was like, you don't have to drink. Yeah,

29:00 you you literally do have a choice because the choice felt like it had been taken away from me. But at the point when I was like, I'm not going to struggle with this, I'm just going to drink every day because it's so hard not to that. Why not just embrace the fact that I'm just somebody who likes to drink? Who cares? Why am I so hard on myself?

29:20 I'm being such a perfectionist. Oh, always struggling with like, why not just go? You know what? Stop depriving myself. Stop acting. When you're on a diet, you end up gaining weight, right? So if I'm like, I'm never going to drink or I'm just going to have a drink only on the weekends, then all week is going to be miserable. Looking forward to that drink. Right. As soon as I changed that thinking, I was like, oh, this is nice. I'm just going to have a drink every day.

29:47 But it didn't work out. Shockingly, it didn't.

29:50 Work out, too. I totally tried that rule. I was like, just be a drinker. And I was like, oh, OK. And that's what ended it all for me.

29:57 Yeah, same.

29:59 That's what finally made me go, oh my God, I have no off button. I'm never going to stop.

30:04 Right?

30:05 And I totally, like all the things you say, it makes me laugh too because I did this thing called the fuck it diet. Have you ever heard of this one?

30:12 No, please enlighten me.

30:14 Oh, you'll love it. You won't be good at it because I wasn't. But you'll love the idea. You just don't diet anymore. You eat whatever the hell you want to because... And you're by doing this, supposedly, you're going to learn how to just find the way that works for you. Yeah, I didn't. I ended up gaining. I feel like I gained 15 pounds. And this lady in her book is like, and you're going to find the weight where your body likes to sit. I'm like, my body likes to sit at obesity. Like if I keep going and I was just like this in my husband would look at me and he's like, whoa, you bring in the box of Cheez-Its to the table, to the couch.

30:50 And I was like, yeah, I'm on the fuck it diet.

30:53 I was like so in the best episode ever.

30:56 It's just ridiculous. And it's so funny because now I'm working with a nutrition coach and I'm like, well, I did the since the last time we worked together, I tried the fuck it diet, which I would pretty much call my rock bottom in realizing that I am powerless against Cheetos and all food. But it's just the same thing.

31:16 And I get pissed that I have that in my brain. Like, why didn't I get one of the brains that could say, oh, I had one drink and now I'm good. But when you say I'm powerless against the second drink, no truer statement has ever been said. And I'm like, yeah, and I'm powerless against the second cookie as well, for sure.

31:35 That's basically what they're saying by you're powerless over alcohol. It's like when you're in sobriety... You're not powerless over the first drink because you're not drinking. So that's where your power has taken over. It means that you're also going to utilize if you start having a craving, you're going to go, oh, but I've learned that there's another way.

31:59 So I'm going to use all these tools at my disposal. For me at the beginning, sometimes it was just like, call somebody, another alcoholic, right? It was people. That's why they give you their number. Because they're like, especially when you're new, they're like, you're going to want to drink.

32:15 Yeah.

32:15 And you need to have a plan. And that happened right away. And I was like, I would call somebody who was like, I've been sober six months. I thought, oh, my God, they have all the answers. Yeah, they're old timers at this point. I was like, I remember having eight days sober and being like anybody that had 11 days was like, whoa, how did you get there? So I would call somebody and just go. hi, you gave me your number at this meeting and I don't know, I'm really thinking about drinking. And then they go, okay, how many days do you have? And then it's like eight.

32:51 They're like, okay, what would happen if you had it? Let's play the tape forward. Then what's going to happen? Or sometimes somebody would just be like, oh my gosh, thank you for calling. Let's talk about it. What are you doing right now? Or somebody would be like, let's just talk on the phone. Could you, couldn't you get through the next five minutes? And I'd be like, yeah, I'm not that bad. Okay. Then they talk to you for a little bit. Then you hang up and you feel better.

33:13 I love that. And that's something I was definitely, I always tell people, I'm like, there was also a part of me that's, I'm such an introvert that all of that sounded like really overwhelming. But now I'm like, oh, I can totally see how that would work. And even the like, okay, now we're going to sit and we're going to think through the drink together. Because that's something too, when you're thinking through the drink as like a person Your brain is negotiating with you like, well, you're just going to have one drink. You're going to be real, real good at it. And you're going to stop right there.

33:41 So you thought through it. You're a winner. But when you talk to somebody who was like, no, let's really remember where this is going to go, which is so helpful. OK, we kind of I feel like we started going into this one because you started talking about like strategies and stuff. And I knew there were 12 steps and I didn't know what those steps were. Which is something I say on the TikTok. I didn't even know what the steps were.

34:03 And I'm like, what an idiot whenever I replay it. But I'm just like, okay, so I didn't know what the steps were, but I knew I didn't want to work them. And especially because there was one about making amends. That one I knew. And I was like, ew, that sounds terrible. First of all, I don't want people to know I quit. So I definitely don't want to go to apologize for things that maybe they don't even remember.

34:27 So, you know, I have a story about that because in the book, I also was not looking forward to that. But before I even speak on that, I just want to say that the steps are also what you make of them. So some people will be like, so step one is admitted that you are powerless over alcohol, right? And your life had become unmanageable. All right. How do we do that? We could sometimes... Part of working step one is just saying in a meeting, my name is Stephanie and I'm an alcoholic. You've admitted it. And sometimes even though you're feeling like, I don't know if I am one, just the act of saying it makes you go like, oh, maybe that felt kind of good. That felt good to admit, right?

35:10 Yep.

35:11 So that's a step. But a lot of times somebody who's helping you might ask you to write down a list of ways that alcohol has made your life unmanageable. And sometimes seeing it in black and white is very helpful because I walked in there with a lot of ego and a lot of I'm not that bad. I'm not like these other people. And I was asked to make that list. And one of the things on my list was I drive drunk. Not all the time, but I'm saying even before I had kids, I drove drunk a lot. It did not occur to me that I'd had too much to drink and couldn't drive. I always thought I was fine.

35:50 I was the same where I was like, I look back and I'm like, oh, I would tell people too. It's okay. I'm going to do a real good job driving.

35:57 I'm going to be a real good driver. I'm going to be fine.

36:00 Those two lines.

36:02 Listen, if I got to cover what I, I'll do it. I take safety very seriously.

36:08 What do you think I'm going to do? Drive recklessly? No, I'm like, oh my God.

36:11 No, I don't want to get arrested.

36:13 Have you seen the reel where there's some girl going, what did people do before Uber? How did they get home from clubs and someone jumps in and they go, We drove junk. We're not proud of it, but we drove drunk. And I'm like, and I looked at who had liked it and reacted to it or reposted it. And I was like, oh, there's all my drinking buddies, all my new sober buddies, really. But I was like, there's all my sober friends being like, yep.

36:40 That's what you did? And I was like, what am I going to not drink?

36:43 It's not funny. I want people to know that it is not funny. But I do think part of community, which you get from 12 Step, is going, oh, I'm not the only one.

36:53 Well, it's funny looking back at it. It's funny that we thought that way. It's funny that we can relate, and we're also sober.

37:01 Yeah, exactly.

37:02 It wouldn't be funny if we were like, how do you get home from stuff? I drive drunk.

37:07 Yeah, I just drive drunk. I am like, I'm glad there's Uber now, but my poor kids are country kids, so they're just going to have to call good old me. I'll be the Uber, which I'm already training them on, and call me.

37:18 Which is a good feeling.

37:19 It is. I feel like that's one of my biggest, I just can't even wait. I'll be there because I'm sober. I know. Kids are going to be like, yeah, we get it.

37:27 I know. I say it all the time, too. And they're like, we know.

37:30 Yeah, we've heard.

37:31 So as far as the amends thing, it's another one of those things that's as little or as much as you want. I thought I was pretty into it at the beginning. I was trying to get an A, an A, A. And I was like, I'm going to I'm going to do these steps and I'm going to. OK, I got to make some apologies. I couldn't think of a lot of people. Some of them were like I used to rip off this bar that I worked out when I was a cocktail waitress and I stole all the time.

37:59 But like that was a long time ago. That guy's not going to remember me. That's anyway. No, thanks. So I skipped the ones that I was like. Would hear about people doing that and it made them feel better. I was like, yeah. But there was this situation where I was supposed to be throwing a friend a bachelorette party.

38:18 And yeah. And I, listen, she wasn't such a close friend. So I had a lot of resentment in my head. I was like, she thinks of me as a better friend than I think of her. So now, because I've been designated as this really good friend, I have to be one of two people throwing her bachelorette party. So I was already having resentment about it. Then I invited a person who was not quite not divorced to come meet me in Vegas who wanted to come meet me.

38:47 We went to Vegas. Anyway, long story short, probably wasn't the best bachelorette party for her. But I was like, this person was sober, had gotten sober after I did. And I was like, this is a good person to practice on because. just to what you were saying, I was like, she's not going to really remember it because I didn't remember acting that bad. But it was like a little thing that nagged at me that was like, oh, I probably shouldn't have slept over in the guy's room.

39:14 I probably should have come back to the room. It was, we were only there for a night. Like how hard would it have been for me to come back to the room? And I knew that she was pissed because the next day when I came back to the room, she and her friend were both being icy towards me, which made me mad. in the moment. Fuck you, whatever.

39:32 Okay. Yeah.

39:33 So this is now eight years after that. And I'm like, this is going to be a good practice. I'm going to do these amends. I'm going to kick ass at this. So I called her And then I said, we weren't like in regular contact. So and I think she knew what was up right away. So she was like, oh, is this about my bachelorette party?

39:52 Oh, wow.

39:53 And I was like, oh, no.

39:56 You're like, oh, I thought I was 100.

39:59 Percent expecting her to be like, what? That is insane. Stop it. Yeah, you're insane. You're too hard on yourself. I don't even remember that. No, she was just like, yeah, I was really upset about that. And then I felt bad yeah and then I she basically was like that was you really made this whole the whole the weekend all about you I felt really slighted I felt like I didn't matter to you and um it was very difficult conversation and I I felt so bad and it was very eye-opening because I was like oh here I was for all these years thinking like oh the only person I hurt is myself yep and it became clear to me That this was probably the tip of the iceberg.

40:44 And there's probably many people that when I'm drinking, I've done something fucked up or said something awful or.

40:51 Yeah. And you brush it off and you kind of go, I was drunk. And they know I didn't mean it. I definitely have things, even as you're saying it, I'm like, I should probably apologize to my sister for this one moment. I'm like, and we're still great friends, but I'm still thinking that might be worth acknowledging that. just as a, it really feels good.

41:10 It feels good to own your shit. And the step four is basically where you go through all of your resentments that you have. But what happens is you start to see where you have, where, what part did you play in all of these things where you're like, I'm mad at, I'm mad at my husband because of this or this. Right.

41:30 Yeah.

41:30 And what a good sponsor will do is help you to go, yeah, that, that sounds hard. That's not great. But, and then it'll, The character defects are not necessarily to tear you down. A lot of people think like, well, I don't want to do this thing. And then I'm going to feel horrible about myself. It's not empowering, but here's the thing. Sometimes some of the things that we do that sabotage ourselves are like having unrealistic expectations of people, taking things personally. And when you look at a situation or somebody that you're like, I'm still holding onto this thing.

42:03 They said this thing to me and that made me feel so bad. Sometimes if you really go back and you look at that situation and you go, were they trying to hurt me or were they just, do they have a little anger problem? Do they sometimes lash out? Whatever it is, when you start to see your part, that is so freeing because so then you start realizing stuff about yourself like I did. Oh, my ego gets in the way of a lot of stuff. I have a pretty high opinion of myself and when, and I can be really defensive and I really don't like to be criticized and it's very difficult for me to hear the other person out. I don't like, I think I'm right.

42:42 So if somebody is getting in an argument with me, a lot of times I don't want to hear what they have to say. Cause I'm like, but I'm right. So you need to listen to me. And does that help me in life?

42:53 No, no.

42:54 It pushes people away.

42:55 And it's hard. Cause it is, I, that's one of my biggest things. And that's what I've learned even from putting this out on the internet. And when I did it, I had a lot of AA people be like, you're just full of ego. I was like, no, I'm not. What are you talking about? I have so much empathy. I could come up like, and then I started looking at it. I was like, oh my God, I was so full of ego. And this is like, it's almost like I couldn't reach out for the help that I needed because I was so full of myself to be like, and that's something that then I always put in the caption, which people don't read captions. But it is just, oh, I had to learn all this, which is part of, I feel when you do a 12-step program, you kind

43:35 of get, you get the steps to do the thing. And I don't know why I was I know I was so afraid because I didn't want to have a drinking problem.

43:43 But I always say that I wish that everybody and I'm not a big self-helpy person. I've never done the forum. I've never I'm very allergic to cults and to very simplistic self-help books. And oh, you just here's the, you know, seven habits of successful people. I find a lot of stuff to be bullshit. Yeah. The thing that I like about the 12 steps is that you don't have to do it. It's not like you're not paying for a course in self-improvement. You're not doing any of that. You're just like, hey- here's some things that could help you to stay sober. And one of the things that helps you stay sober is not having so many things that you feel shitty about, right? So if you get in a disagreement with somebody and you are working steps and somebody,

44:32 your sponsor or even a friend, another fellow says, is able to be honest with you, unlike a therapist who's always going to be on your side, somebody who's working a program might be like, Sarah, You're telling me that you got so mad and you hung up on your friend because she was being such a bitch. But OK, let's talk about this a little bit.

44:51 Like, yeah.

44:52 What is your part? Did you did do you expect this person? Are you trying to force this friendship with somebody who this happens a lot with? Whatever it is, it's not like the person's going to go, well, you know what? You suck, too. So you owe her an apology. They're just going to go, what's the part that you were in control of? Did you get heated and hang up?

45:13 That's not great behavior. So why don't you apologize for your part? And then when you say, oh, fine.

45:20 Yes.

45:20 And then you say, hey, sorry I hung up on you or sorry that got heated or whatever. Sometimes then it's over and then you're like, oh, now I feel free. Not walking around with a resentment. And then when it comes the evening where you would have normally popped open a bottle of wine, you don't have that like, oh my God, I had the worst day. You know what I mean?

45:40 Because you took the weight off. You don't have that anymore. So that it all makes perfect sense. It is really if you're afraid of that work and- I even think about we were at a family therapy session with my daughter and the therapist said to me, could you tell your parents to me? Could you tell your parents we're not going to stay here if you're talking about politics?

46:01 We're going to get up and leave. And I was like, oh, no, absolutely not. I was like, I'm just going to totally own that I cannot do that. And I could feel my daughter looking at me like, come on, mom. And I was like, what? I'm not here to do the therapy or do the work. And the therapist was like, would you like to work on that? And I was like, no.

46:18 I'm like, oh my God, even in those little moments, I'm like, no, I don't want to work on this right now. But all right. I saved the best for last. This is the one, you know, this is what everybody, this is the reason nobody wants to do a 12-step program. We've all heard that God is a part of it and religion is a huge part of it. And we have to turn a lot of it over to a higher power. That freaked me out. So I grew up Catholic.

46:44 I didn't want to be Catholic. My parents made me be I can't even, confirmed, which is, and when I was being confirmed, I was like 17 and I was like, I don't want to do this because I don't, I'm not going to be Catholic after this. When I move out, I'm not going to take part in this. So I feel like my religious radar is on. Me and my husband watch every single true crime thing and I look at him all the time going, and that's why you don't have religion. And he's always laughing and I'm like, it's a little culty, but, and I just, but clear it up for us. And try to do your best because I feel like I'm pretty hypersensitive to this one because I had a lot of kids in youth group in high school tell me they wouldn't try to convert

47:24 me to their church. And they always did.

47:26 Okay. It is church. It is a little bit. There's God. But listen, I think that I identify as atheist. If I'm being honest, I don't think I'm just I'm sharing it here. I just don't think I believe in God as a thing. Yeah. There's no proof. It seems to be the problem with, like you said, wars and hating LGBT and a lot of people hide behind this religion.

47:52 So I'm not for that. And I had also had that problem with it. Yeah. But on the other hand, there's no as I said, there's no rules. So like I know lots of people who feel the same way I do.

48:04 Look.

48:05 AA is not perfect and it was invented by like some white Christian dudes. So are we going to like everything about it? No. And the book is pretty stupid in a lot of places and archaic and I don't agree with it. But the basic principle of it I don't practice religion. I don't. I'm Jewish, so I'm more Jewish for sure than Christian. But I just don't think about there's nothing you have to. You're not doing stuff that's religion, that's religious in a meeting. You're not like nobody's getting on their knees and praying. There's no sermons that you don't have to believe anything. And yes, it admitted our lives were admitted. We were powerless, turned our will and our lives over to the care of God

48:49 as we understood him. OK, so yeah. What they hammer into you is it could be anything for you. Maybe it's nature. The idea is that we are not in control of everything. So the, do you know what I'm saying? Like the idea is to go, I'm just this little, all of me and my addictions and my things are like this little small part and the world is so much bigger. And so whatever that is for you, whatever makes you go like, oh, I'm minute. when you look at nature or so for me it's like the ocean I remember thinking like I I can't fight against the ocean it just is right so the That's how, that's what sort of was my workaround. I like that. And you don't even need a workaround. You could just be like, nobody,

49:37 they say, as you understand God, maybe God to you is the fact that there are, you're not alone. And there's a bunch of people in this meeting that have felt the way you feel. Maybe that is your higher power is the fact that if other people can do this, I can do it. Yeah.

49:53 I think that's huge.

49:53 It doesn't make sense to me to go. Oh, God's going to help me. Okay, I'm just going to turn it over to God. What the fuck does that mean? It doesn't mean anything.

50:02 But when you do, there has been parts for me as I've progressed, I've learned to do the surrender part. I'm not in control of this anymore. I'm just going to surrender it. Whatever that means. Like I'm always, people are like, was it to God? I'm like, no. Is it to the universe even? And I'm like, nah. It's just kind of like, I don't have any power over this.

50:21 This is... I need to let it go and stop worrying about it. And like you, I like what you said with the, I'm just a little piece of this puzzle out here. And there's so much other stuff out there. And sometimes I try to be like, oh, nature is my religion. It's this, I kind of go all over the place. But I think that helps a lot because the God piece, people mention God. And I am like, all of a sudden, I don't want to do that.

50:46 Which is funny because then I go over to eat dinner with my parents and I do the little dinner prayer. And my husband's always, I'm really surprised you do the prayer with him. I'm like, I grew up doing it. So it's just like, whatever.

50:56 I've gotten a lot looser with my, when I go, I've gone to temple, I've gone to funerals where they do prayers. And I find I get a little peace from it. I go, oh, that kind of feels good. It doesn't have to be, oh, now I'm going to go to church every day. Or I would say most people in 12-step programs have a bit of edge sometimes.

51:18 are kind of like us. If you are somebody who is out there doing heroin or drinking every night or whatever, chances are you're not a super like churchy, pious person. So it really is nobody's preaching at you. When sometimes people talk about God a little bit too much for my taste, but that'll just be one meeting. And then I'll just be like, whatever, I freaking hate that. But you're going to find a million other people that also don't like it.

51:44 Yes, that's what, and I think that's part of too, like even admitting, oh, I'm an alcoholic. It took me meeting other people who could say I'm an alcoholic to be like, man, they're a badass. Oh, that person's a badass too. And I'm like, oh, I want, okay, now I want to be a part of the alcoholic club.

52:00 I changed my mind. You're all amazing. And I think that's what it is. We have this picture we've painted and I love that you're like, These are people who had a drug problem or a drinking problem. They're not trying to create the Church of Latter-day Saints and have many lives.

52:16 And by the way, they're not all people who, I used to be an addict, but now I'm super religious and really... Most of them are not.

52:25 Yeah.

52:26 Are there going to be some of those people? Yes, because those are people that were lost anyway and could have done that without sobriety.

52:34 Exactly.

52:35 You're going to hear... you're going to find Jesus freaks everywhere, not just in 12 step. But again, bottom line is you don't have to do anything.

52:44 Nope.

52:45 Big thing they say is take what you want and leave the rest. Yes. Yep.

52:49 That's what one of my friends always says. And she's like, I don't go to meetings very often anymore, but when you do, you take what you want and you leave the rest.

52:56 And she's like, sometimes it makes me mad because sometimes I'm like, could they be a little bit more culty? Like, How come nobody misses me when I'm not there? I went to one meeting of a cult, which was Nam-myoho-renge-kyo people, and they chased me for weeks. I could go to Alcoholics Anonymous for 17 years. I stopped going. I'm sorry, but how come they're not beating down my door going, are you OK? Come back to nobody cares.

53:23 You're like, I actually am trying to be part of the cult. That's how you know it's not the cult because they're not chasing you.

53:29 They don't care. They're not making any money off of you. They just don't care.

53:35 I love it too. People come after me in cults. Come on.

53:39 They get together and lock in, guys. You could have had me.

53:42 Don't you want me this whole time?

53:45 You just let me go? You let me slip through your fingers? How come nobody's keeping account of me?

53:50 Aren't I supposed to be going out to find other people to join the cult now? Are you checking to see if that's what I'm doing? I even think too. I was part of Beachbody, which was pretty culty. I'm like, Okay, yeah, no, even they didn't come find me as I dropped off. I guess they kind of did. But that was for monetary purposes of their pyramid.

54:08 Exactly.

54:09 They're like, hey, my pyramid's starting to crumble without you. I'm like, I know. Sorry.

54:14 Isn't that funny, though? Okay, yeah. Sorry, I know.

54:17 I'm like, we veered in a very funny way. So this was great because I feel like you, I'm like, I can't find the right words. I just hope that people who are nervous and scared can go, oh my gosh, these two ladies, they've done it differently than each other, but they're both sober badasses, and it looks kind of fun.

54:39 That's what I always hope people can find in this. I don't want to be like, sobriety's the best. But sobriety is not, it's not a death sentence. And if you choose a 12-step path, or... a smart recovery path or just your own path, just make it fun. Yes.

54:56 It's not a, it's not a punishment.

54:58 No, it's like the best thing. Yeah. It really is the best thing. So in closing for this one, can you just, I know I kind of did a quick thing too, but can you just say why you're so happy you did find 12 step program, your 12 step program and what it did for you?

55:14 I'm so glad that I went, that I was desperate enough to do something that was, way outside my comfort zone. I really prejudged it. I had contempt before. I don't know what they call it. There's a word for that. Contempt prior to investigation. I had a lot of conceptions, misconceptions. I'm so glad I went because I made some amazing friends.

55:39 I found a community of people and I found out that I wasn't alone and I didn't have to do it by myself. There were people I could call. There were meetings I could go to that I found company. And anytime I felt scared and the first year was really hard, I could share about it honestly and find other people that were like, oh my God, thank you for...

55:59 There were so many times at the beginning that I would share something and think, oh, these people are going to think I'm a freak who's doing this terrible. I shared all the time at the beginning that I feel like I'm in a cult and people were like, yeah, cool. I felt the same way as you do.

56:13 Yeah.

56:14 You're well, you know, and it just wasn't as scary as I thought. And it ended up being like really helping me. Yeah. I love that.

56:21 Thank you so much.

56:22 I think another way would have been harder. Yeah. Yeah.

56:24 I think so too. I've done it the other way. And I often think I'm glad I was able to find community on the internet. Because I always do tell people, you can't do this without community. You've got to find it somehow. So if you're like me and you're stubborn and you don't want to do in-person things or that freaks you out, then find it online, but find it somewhere.

56:44 Because it really is one of the most important parts, I think.

56:47 Yeah.

56:48 Yeah. All right. Thank you so much for coming on.

56:50 I appreciate it.

56:51 Thanks for having me. And if you haven't already, be sure to go listen to or read Stephanie's book, Drunkish. Thank you. Listen to you on your podcast, Drunkish. Because I know people, I'm like, I'm not a one podcast person. So if you like sobriety podcasts, you need to listen to Drunkish where you interview different people every single week, right?

57:12 Yeah.

57:13 Cool. And so you can hear all different stories then. And I think that's it.

57:18 Thank you.

57:19 I just have to say thank you again to Stephanie for being on the podcast. This conversation, I knew it was going to be good. I just, I knew it was going to be such a fun conversation. I had no idea how much we were going to laugh as we were recording and how many amazing tidbits and takeaways there were also going to be. Now, after listening to this, I'm sure you can see that both of us believe that community is key to an alcohol-free journey. So I'm going to link a few different ways that you can check out 12-step programs in your area, Smart Recovery, maybe Dharma Recovery, and I'll also be linking the Daymakers community, which is the community that I host weekly group coaching calls with, and we have a text message thread, and

57:59 it's just an amazing sober family. So head to the link in the show notes and figure out the right fit for you because community really is key. And like I said at the top of the episode, if you're not following Stephanie already, be sure to do so. I'm going to link all the different ways that you can follow her on social media and with her podcast, and I'll link her book as well. Lastly, if you haven't already, could you do me a huge favor and rate and review the No More Wasted Days podcast? Ratings are actually the way that a podcast can grow, so your rating means more than you know. So be sure to hit the star review button on whatever app you listen to.

58:33 And if you're able to, a written review means so much to me because you have to understand most of the time I'm sitting in a room that we've completed in our outbuilding and recording this podcast all by myself. It's hard for me to comprehend that I have listeners out there. So when you write a written review, I go, oh my gosh, they are out there. So if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and give me a rating and review.

58:56 All right.

58:57 Thank you so much for listening. And remember, life is short. Don't waste another day of it to alcohol.