Casey VS Microsoft

0:00 Before we do a sweet intro, I want to do an even sweeter intro and I would love to hear about Trash's snack of the day But before we do that Trash, I think you've been prompting a little too much because I think I just caught you prompting right now Right before this they get it to a slack message at work, okay?

0:18 What the dude you were spawned manually to slack messages 1987 calls I just realized I'm the only one in this group that has a real job But us real people Dude, okay, I'm not gonna let you guys when people say that to me on Twitter It does that that's how you can one guy me pretty good is saying that I'm just like mold Oh XOR posted the one of the guys who does shaders like you know this cool. Yeah, XOR is extra dev shout out XOR dev I and and he posted a poll that that was like how how is is it making your job more or less competitive?

1:03 I think was he was asking So I was like where's the option for don't have real job don't know and you know So I'm okay with it. I you can't one guy me that way. I did you sense it about this prime It yeah, I am obviously I'm triggered. Okay, just let it go It's fair. I mean it's a ton of work doing like content stuff so much work that like it's more work than most normal jobs So like I don't know why people wouldn't think it's a job But well the thing that that thing that works me the most is that I internally put on timelines on myself And I try to build as much as possible so I'm not like a dummy when it comes to programming Yeah, and so you know, I'm learning I'm learning Odin right now having a great time. It's just like

1:50 There's I know there's just like a couple things that get me and that's just one of those just I don't know why I got to let it go Fortunately, you only told us prime and not anybody else So that's not everyone's really gonna bring this up every day. Here's the thing though I'm sorry your program. You're learning to do what I never heard. I don't know what you're talking about. I Don't ever see an article about that in any that's not a lot of publication Odin I'm sorry. I like is that that's like some god. I think I looked it up I'm actually trying to figure out this whole God situation. Okay, so I'm starting with Odin. You know the Norse fruits Yeah, quick point of contention. Does that make Odin the Norse god a notable character is in our is Wikipedia saying he's real like can't

2:38 Odin the language be a fictitious programming language created out of thin air by ginger bill right? I don't know. I just need to know if wired magazine has ever talked about the the Norse god Odin if they have then I'm told that he Probably exists. That's what I would say anyway. Believe it And he's probably and he's probably notable that right? I would assume he's notable. Yeah If some wired magazine author talked about their their imaginary friend when they were 12 then that's notable because hey They wrote it in wired magazine Man the power that's Why are they going to circle back really quick on the real job thing that trash brought up I was just saying trash if you want we can help you join the rest of us

3:27 Yeah, that's true and I also would like to throw out there trash is the only person with a real job Why are you here during the work day? Yeah, that is a good good question T.J. I you're trying to make me join you What's your what's your current slack status? I just want to know what is your current status is it green?

3:47 This is the worst I hate when we bring up my truck It says out of office until 11 30 Thank you So 30 is for the podcast that's every day podcast I make up for this time though. I make sure I work extra hard for an hour and a half Don't worry trash the recording is going they they know it's happening. Yeah, I hate the trash Everyone I know is apparently when you show up in office they're like yo, it's trash from the standout Hey, is that HTTP get that out of here?

4:20 That's that how we order coffee we order coffee by a SSH terminal dot shop. Yeah, you want a real experience You want real coffee you want awesome subscriptions, so you never have to remember again Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee and exclusive content then check out cron you don't know what SSH is Well, maybe the coffee is not for you Not myself conscious I'm gonna work so hard today. Okay. Oh, you're gonna problem. It's so good. You're gonna open up Oh, I got kick off an agent. So I don't feel so bad about being yeah, yeah, kick one off All right, Tratch, what's the snack of the day? You got to give us a little bit of the snack of the day. This is my blocker right now I have these giggles which are like a healthy version of skittles

5:15 No thing and then you have to go healthy because you wait too many snacks Well, my wife is like very much into like anti-food dye stuff So this is like the candy you can get that doesn't have like the food dyes and my daughter's like allergic to some of that stuff So we're very okay, we're very like I'll learn about that and then we have these like Easter candy things Some and these gummies He has risen. Yes, and then I got or choose because I want to get breakfast right before this I just got here right on time. I got a quick workout in got my quick pump Eat a pancake and then spit on home. Do you eat any non-carbohydrate foods I don't know I can try not to yes You eat I'm like a big steak guy. Okay, so you do we oh by the way, we do need an update. This is true trash

6:05 The receipts how are they going? How's your wife doing? What what kind of things have you been? It's really funny that you bring that up. It sounds like it. I use it specific. I use it for myself I use it for myself now So I could just like tell my wife what I'm doing the laundry And so I have a huge list of just laundry so then whenever something comes up I'm just going to pop it out. I don't know. So you have a laundry list Literally, especially what you made was a self promotion a household self promotion I have converted it to making me look good. Yep. That's smart trash. That's smart And I'm not bringing it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when something happens. I'm gonna be like check this out

6:49 Check out all this laundry I did hit the scroll and then scroll all the way baby So that's how I've been doing it. She has a bunch on me actually, which is not a good thing. But it's okay All right, all right. It's okay. What about on your side? Are you still getting receded? Okay Trash I went to the truth. I went to my wife and we talked about it And she said I'm not going to use receipts because it's too toxic I'm so shy as woman Wait a second though. Wait a second Should I destroy prime that to me sounds like Trash just needs to work on the PR because that to me sounds like a reluctant I'm not going to use it like I wanted to use this to document Oh the crap that you're doing prime But I don't want to do it because it sounds a little too bad. So if if like if Trash changes the messaging to like

7:45 Help your husband become a better Right come along side On his journey to adulthood Trash just needs PR he needs a PR we need to spin this for him and then this thing has go into the moon man I've already moved on to my next unethical thing I started building a bot army so I can get Pokemon cards I've been working on it It's actually so complicated I love that you're building this trash because you're building it for good purposes so that you can actually just get Pokemon's yourself without getting into a fist fight at a machine The good guy, but don't you become the bad guy once you're using a bot army?

8:30 Well, I'm not making like a so like typically these boss people I can't even make that many because there's like a lot of complicated reasons But I'm just gonna make a handful just to like up my chances slightly It's not gonna actually trash. I have a MacBook mini. I will let you I will let you use it if you want to use it until you can get at least I will use it trash You write stuff that gets deployed on every Netflix computer right Dude try to be heard a spinnaker There's this like Nintendo has to shut off like all of Netflix's ip's because all of a sudden It's just like this massive like Pokemon buying spree Just wait till this wall gets super high. That's when you're gonna know my bots working is working. Yep. All right

9:22 That's what you know. Can is there any possibility we could intro? We could actually start Welcome to the stand-up today. We have an extremely special episode for everybody that's washing the stand-up for those that don't know This is the world's most attended stand-up Congratulations everyone for being a part of it. I hope everybody has their blockers. They're ready Yep, thank you. Thank you Still up paid still up paid the interns are always unpaid But you guys the things is that I love you with the love of a CEO. Okay. I just want you to know that right now I was talking about valuable work experience that someday could land you a paying job right Someday you guys will get paid Just not here

10:11 So don't get some coffee. Yeah, go give me some coffee. All right now today are very special episode It has to do Casey. I was absolutely fascinated with some of the tweets you were making because windows 11 Actually, well to be fair. We got to back this up a little bit about a couple of months ago Satya released a note of intent saying that windows Here's you we are going to win back the consumer is exactly what he said and the first major patch since that announcement Just came out and that exact patch contained a new and improved windows run dialogue And so this is a part of their major push to make performance more top of mind at least that is what windows 11 Explicitly said and as part of their announcement they said

10:57 This is the fastest that the run dialogue has ever been ever Evie are like this is the best it has ever been Here we go and they Announced it and it takes approximately 90 milliseconds to show on screen on the median So the 50 percentile so we don't know what we don't know what like the 25th percentile We don't know the quartiles here. So we have no idea what's going on But we do know that the median is 90 approximately 90 milliseconds It was 94 I think might have been what they said yeah, I don't know how they measure that that seems really impressive considering most displays don't You know, they're usually locked to some number that probably doesn't land on 94 every time I don't exactly know how they're measuring that but nonetheless

11:38 That's what they're saying Absolutely impressed with this performance, but then Casey you did a little bit of snooping I did so I actually didn't uh, so I I really didn't I didn't care because like I said, I don't use windows really like any more week We kind of we kind of nixed that Uh pun intended and uh, so like I'm just like it's a it's kind of just a like all right you guys you know You can do your rodeo now or you decide to try and make windows performing or whatever. That's fine um, but What I was gonna say is Originally, I only saw this because Tim Swini was commenting on it I think he was said something snide like you know, it's he said it was 94 milliseconds for this you know Performance top of mind rewrite. It's like a gaming monitor is like you know eight milliseconds to refresh a frame like what's go

12:33 You know what's going on Um, and so the only thing I really did was just retreat. I'm like okay Popping up the run dialogue like is is like a drop to 10 fps right Because that's what you know, it's like 11 fps. I think would be if you rounded 94 milliseconds It'd be like it'd be you know be like 10.6 Frames a second or something if that's was your run rate And nobody cared about the run dialogue for the most part Pretty much people just cared about the fact that I used it fps as a way to like explain what the number was Now remind you I'm not posting anything original here at all I literally just like here is the screenshot of the thing that Tim Swini posted Or was replying to rather um, and I'm just like and I highlighted it and I was like they were like perftop of mind 94 milliseconds

13:27 and I was like Geez like that'd be really split like 94 milliseconds is is a long time Especially because like when you think about what the run dialogue is It's not really like it's it's a user interface interaction. Well you hold on right there Casey There's processes that they have to create well, I don't know what a process is but apparently it takes 90 milliseconds Yeah, so this was this was the thing um, where they were like Uh, a lot of people just had a problem with this and a lot of people's probably the wrong term like most You know, it was a very popular tweet actually so I suppose most people didn't have a problem with what I said um But for the people who did have a problem with that there were two things one is they were like well this is like you know

14:11 Loading it's like how long so it takes to load Which to me is ridiculous because it's like no it's like a text box and maybe some history There's no there shouldn't be any loading like this should just be It's a trivial it's you're talking about like 4k or something of data that should be required to do this thing Like it's so minimal that you there's no question you shouldn't be launching your process for this in my mind right Maybe if you have some kind of weird process isolation thing going on because you're scared that someone's hacking your run dialogue But then at that point we should talk about why that's happening exactly and other things like that But you know there's a whole sort of thing so you could come back with some blog post where you explained like

14:50 Here's why it has to be a process and maybe I'd be like okay But in general no like that should not be if the user doesn't perceive them to be loading something Then that's not really acceptable excuse a so I didn't think anyone who replied with that I don't think they have any leg to stand on so sorry like I just completely disagree with you. This is not a load operation But that was relatively minor that was I felt like that was just as you as you folks say and as the kids say that was just Cope that was just like trying to come up with another 94 was some cope Yeah, um a little bit of cope and also launching notes so you can use react that's all The bigger the bigger thing was um Was they didn't like the use of fps?

15:31 I and this to me is like I can If you if you don't want to use fps as a way to like talk about how things Feel and how long they take right That's totally valid in my opinion meaning I would never go to somebody who quoted milliseconds and say whoa whoa Sun you should be saying fps I wouldn't do this house In this house we measure with fps exactly like I would never I would never do that If I did that to somebody and they were like dude I quote these things in milliseconds. That's how I do it. I'd be like ah sorry like I was yeah I was mean to dick. I shouldn't have done that or whatever right like that I would feel bad about that if I did that right Not so with these people these super like You cannot quote fps numbers unless apparently

16:23 Um because some there's some like internet committee that like must have decided this fps has to be average fps. Yes, it's it is it's so casey you may not know this but if in a video game in a video game If you fire a gun, but you only fire it once It takes 90 milliseconds. That's just part of that's just hey that's just loading It only counts if you repetitively fire it And again like people were mad though casey because the run Thing is kind of like you know anthropic sort of started the trend everything's a game engine casey Well, so it's like they were So I don't know it's not a fair fps measure okay All I'm saying is so it what I would say is If that's the way you want to quote things that's totally fine because I like having both

17:14 My preference is to see both so I like to see the milliseconds and then I like to convert that to fps in my head so I can see like if I was hitting monitor refresh because the way that I usually like to program Anything that's like a user interaction is I like to hit monitor refresh for like what I expect the target monitor refresh to be So if someone pushes a button then like from the time that that button comes in I want to try on the frame that it came in I want to try to have the response to it on the frame that's submitted at that time right So you push a button on one frame and the next frame that you see as quote like should have it now sometimes It's two frames because like there's a compositor in the way

17:59 Sometimes it's more if the tv sucks and it's buffering a lot so it's like there's reasons why that can start to multiply out But the way I like to think of it is like okay at least for the code Like you know for telemetry which I assume is where this number is coming from if you timed from like when the the event happens and when someone actually got a frame I want to see something close to monitor refresh or twice monitor refresh depending on what you're counting there right um And so this is actually legitimate the way I think about it like like like that was not I think people were saying or were trying to Impune to me the fact that I was trying to make it sound worse than it is by using fps

18:41 And I guess what I would say is that is like no ant or yes and no I I do think of it that way and yes I suppose the reason I use that number is because I actually believe it's bad like when you're not getting monitor refresh that I think you did something wrong probably right It's like especially if it's just I'm popping up a text box or some UI thing I just think you did something wrong you should you should be it monitor refresh just period And if you don't agree with that that's fine like you can just be like no I like my things to be more more laggy than that um You can totally make an argument that uh you just don't care You're like look a hundred milliseconds is what I think is reasonable for response to UI. So that's what I do

19:19 Uh totally fine too But like claiming that fps is a bad way to do it. I totally disagree I think fps is a very good way for someone to have in their head like oh am I close to monitor refresh like I know I should be hitting 60 it's just a good like metric to have and if you want me to convert that so I always say 16.6666666666666666667 Instead six I suppose I can say that for you did did that help if I change it from fps to hurts what like I mean Well cycles per second presumably they'd say again it has to be average for some reason I don't know why those are not intrinsic to the measurement frames per second Just means you took account of frames and you divided by a time right and it does not imply that there was

20:01 Any more than even one actually Technically, you probably need to have two to measure something between but like you know So anyway, I found all of that ridiculous and Very disheartening because it's just I I was like this is ridiculous All of that all of this for something that as far as I can tell isn't actually relevant anyway like because Uh for a couple reasons But here's the first one They said in that same post that the original run dialogue experience was 104 milliseconds And the thing they were really yeah was 94 milliseconds. That's what they said in the post right no No, no, not not not not that post right. I thought it was 400 milliseconds. I can't be real No, it was in them in the blog post that I saw I think it was 104 from on microsoft blog

20:53 They were like the original one was 104 this one's like 94 or something like that or 98 or I don't like I don't know the exact numbers But they were both very close to 100 like one was less than 110 the other was less than 100 right so between 90 and 100 I remember half of the measurements are above 100 or above 94 to remember that's just the median Well, sorry. Yeah, well, I'm just saying So um, I was curious about that because I was like I don't know how they're measuring it right because there's different ways you can measure it If you're if you're talking about like a latency chain Where you press a physical button and then see something It's pretty easy to get a response time to go up to something like a hundred milliseconds

21:32 If you have slow mouse slow USB processing the operating systems a little slow your code is a little slow The monitor buffer several or the GPU is buffering several frames the monitors buffering some more frames I could construct a situation where some code that responded potentially like like my little piece Of code that responds Instantly still is taking a hundred milliseconds because everyone else in the chain is screwing me right This is a thing that people who have ever measured latency with like a camera No, you can easily start to beef that up right yeah, or you've ever actually played a game on a TV set to non gaming mode And all of a sudden you can you can feel it when you're playing Mario. You're like oh, what is happening?

22:13 Am I I can't jump anymore? That's why I'm loses in games. That's actually why I've been on TV mode I didn't know that I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why I lost a fortnight Yeah, we used to watch a lot of TVs Yeah, when he used to do that doc when he used to be doc dr. Disrespect and do that channel He had to stop playing competitive games and treat create this primogen thing specifically because of this you know Teed he had a TV that was buffering too many frames. He couldn't win anymore There's Call of Duty career went down the toilet and here we are on the standup But that's ancient history now no sense dwelling on the past the point is Um, so I don't know where they get this number

22:51 Right. I don't think Casey knows. We'll just keep on going He let's just say hit the end of his career as a oh, yeah, no, it was not that no Yeah, yeah, it was let's say that it Anyways drive It was not minecraft, but anyway, um, the point is Uh, when we uh look at these kind of numbers. Who knows how they're measured right like nobody knows right Um, because they weren't discussed So we know that they were statistical meaning they said it was like a median so meaning We we know that they were talking cross a number of machines right Uh, a number of configurations probably meaning it's telemetry meaning it probably comes from end user machines But it's hard to say because again, I don't I don't know exactly what their setup is for doing this

23:44 But I was curious about that because I was like, you know that sounds really high actually from my recollection of the run dialogue I was like I don't think it takes a hundred and four milliseconds From end of click to showing the run dialogue On unlike windows 10 for example That by the way, this is a very important part because remember the post said this is the fastest ever Right which it may well be as to mean forever. It does mean forever, which is right which is uh, which good point is what I'm trying to get to So the part that confused me was I was like where did that number come from so like on the on windows 10 I tried testing the existing run dialogue which obviously is not the updated one

24:28 And I did a 60 hertz capture now. I know that 60 hertz will make people very uncomfortable So what I mean to say is a capture where the frames were capped to 16.66666666667 milliseconds How many cases is that in uh Deca frames per hour? That's my concern That's the only unit that I prefer discussing so just What is the 60 in 60 is a per an hour um, I don't know So uh, so I captured it and captured a bunch of me Running their you know doing the run dialogue and just to see what it was and it always responded in two frames Which would be you know somewhere in the 30 millisecond range depending on Again, if you were trying to include mouse clicks or something. I don't know But assuming you were doing telemetry from a machine then you can't do that because you don't have a high-speed camera sitting on it

25:21 So I'm assuming they're recording something like that and so I don't so I don't know now So if they're using um that number 104 as a median Well, I tested this on a machine that's a decade old. It's nine years old, right? So it's a very old machine What are they testing across such that they're able to get a number that's three times higher than that as the median right?

25:45 I don't know and since I don't know now. I have no idea what's going on So I don't know where the 100 millisecond number goes A comes from but the reason I say this might just be much to do about nothing is because If that number is similarly inflated and the 94 is similarly inflated the actual number for a response time might be much better It might be that number divided by three which would again be two frames, which is fine right?

26:11 Um much much better than the uh, you know drastically increased three times latency one that it sounded like it was going to be which everyone I think would have been correct kind of freak out about because like They're all used in experience where it's one or two frames to pop up that run dialog and now it's taking three times longer That would be annoying So I I really don't know what's going on here. I feel like they needed to um If they were going to make a post about performance and they didn't want people to comment on it They needed to put more information in there that would be clearer about what's going on And also blaming people for having a reaction to this especially when they just quote the like they just put a quote and be like

26:53 I think what I said is am I reading this right? That's what I said to get really mad at someone who said am I reading this right? This sounds really slow is ridiculous like that's what makes x so crap the only response to that should be Uh, either yes, you're reading it right. This is kind of slow for popping up a run dialog because that shouldn't really be any work or Yes, you were reading it wrong Actually that hundred milliseconds is this really bad way we measure it where we measure it from the start of the click to when we show it And since we can't launch to the person releases the mouse button That's an extra 50 milliseconds that's just padded on there right like That is the answer to this not some snide like you can't use epi like it's just it was garbage like I really didn't like the responses that I felt like they were

27:41 Ridiculous and so like I'm pretty I'm pretty thumbs down on what people said That is my annoyance with it the happy news though is I think I think Uh, what's going to happen is the run dialog will probably be fine um, I can't say for sure But I think these numbers are not like they're not measuring either what we think we're they're measuring or they somewhere in Their test suite have 10,000 Really old buggy laptops that take an extra 70 milliseconds to do this operation and they're skewing the median or something right like like some explanation like that So until we get more information I think this is just a dead issue except for the fact that people out there who think fps isn't a good way to intuit response times

28:25 I think you're totally wrong I they're okay. I got to jump in case he's so there is something about all of this that you're really missing And I would just like to I would love to hear trash is a pinion on this one which is Trash you've worked at Netflix now since the great fall like trash joined and Netflix dropped by 60% Uh effectively is what happened That was 70% anyways, they heard that he was coming Yeah, they heard that he was coming he joins the company Netflix went from 690 to 170 or something like that It was a direct is a disastrous moment for us Anyway, so you have like a bunch of like stock from when you work there that track was treated trash I did everybody a friend your retirement even everybody a favor. He helped

29:09 To people for a decade, so thank you trash for that everybody Trash Everyone give trash a clap. This is why he's still at Netflix. Get those options down so they can go back up Yes, exactly. There you go. Casey Stonkin right there. Anyway, so we've been at like you've worked on a product that's sensitive to Any sort of code right because the TV platform is just it's a very hard platform It's a much slower platform than everything else Now trash have you ever once heard anybody at all in any point in life ever talk about response times in frames No Yeah, Casey, so this is something that you might not know but in the web world Nobody has ever once thought of something in terms of frames. I don't think I like this is a whole novel concept of you being like

29:58 Next monitor refresh rate something to happen like no one's ever said that ever That would that would explain the disconnect probably because to me, so I like obviously I was Raised I don't know if that's the correct term to catch on fire um, so I was raised in the era of During the Thanksgiving Blank. Yeah, R.A. Z. Ed. Yeah, it was good for I'm nice vocabulary buddy Okay, Casey continue on with things something smart. Please It's not smart. It's historical What you normally would do right is you try to have it so that you know You update your stuff during the vertical blank of like a CRT right it like the scan line comes down You update your stuff and you come back around to the top and you need to have everything done in that time

30:45 Like for the next right so you're always I mean the the phrase racing the beam like made it into the title of a book I think right and that's what that Was referring to you're racing the beam the like the the actual like CRT like display beam right that the thing that excites the phosphorus on the screen um of a cathode rate tube right and then went from there to like I In sort of like the Carmack era of gaming like when like the quake engine kind of ushered in 3d and these sort of stuff in in a big way um At that point like I believe he had a thing and I don't remember if this was like something that he said In like person that I remember him saying or whether it was something that he posted in like a plan file

31:32 Um, but I remember him being like look If you structure your Update loop in one way Where you like do your rendering is where you issue your rendering you you update the world do issue rendering and then process input um You lose a little bit of time because some of the input maybe you could have gotten A little bit before like just before you were about to submit the the render or something like like there was a thing Where he was talking about that and I was I was like oh, okay. Yeah, I probably should always be very thoughtful of like How can I make sure I get input as close as possible to submission so that I'm introducing the least like the little smallest amount of latency Uh, especially if you have something like a v-sync on where you're going to like if you like processed input and then waited on v-sync

32:24 Then came around and did your render now. There's an even bigger gap between those things right And so uh, I've always I'm always used to think of it is it frames So input comes in on a frame you should see it on the next frame as close as I can make it I don't want to be the weak link in that chain. I want it to be the TV that screwing you not me So I've always thought of it that way So I always think of it as fps and especially nowadays when like you know when I do ping times On like the network here even on this crappy comcast connection that I'm on um most uh network on modern broadband internet the actual ping time Out from the person Uh to like a local to something that's close to them is actually sub monitor refresh

33:06 Like you can actually get a network packet to someone and back In less time than like a 60 hertz refresh. That's how good this stuff has gotten You know people on fiber are getting sub one millisecond ping times to things like the nearest google node, right It's incredible And so nowadays I just think everything should be thought that way like it's just it's just look the fastest we can The reason to do it in frames that's the fastest we can get something out to the user like what's the lowest Uh amount of time this monitor can hit that's what we should be shooting for and sometimes it's unrealistic because it's like okay They're on like some foot north of 500 Hertz monitor The operation we're doing is to heavyweight so we got to set a more conservative frame target totally fine

33:52 But I I never think of it in terms of anything other than that because that's our limit. That's what I can give you the frames at Yeah Yeah, I mean, they do in the even in the world where we do think about a ps especially for like animated heavy websites when you notice we see like jank it's like stuttering That's typically when we'll actually take into account like fps But yeah, honestly most apps like Aren't really doing any animations. It's all just async Crud apps just waiting for something right? So it's a more of how long this take to load which we'll use time like most seconds Verse I think ttfb is that what I'm hearing a little bit of that a little bit of time the first bite a little bit at

34:36 I feel like that is sort of a separate thing too is like um You know to me the user should see the response instantaneously even if the thing takes a little while So like suppose I'm on some network and I'm like look it's AWS So you know good luck getting this response back in in less than 30 milliseconds because like even though the data center is Is like two milliseconds of of of hop away or something as soon as it hits AWS It's just grinds to a halt right and like that's been my experience And it was like the the late the time it takes light to get to the data center has nothing to do with how long to take that They are just going to chew through those milliseconds doing whatever it is that they do

35:17 With like they're switching and you know virtual machine management or whatever it is You know, I don't work there. I have no idea So assuming you're going to do that you're like look we're not going to hit 60 Hertz or 120 Hertz because we know this thing is going to take like 40 milliseconds to get back from AWS I still want to show the thing immediately so like for the case of a run dialogue Let's say for whatever reason I can't predict it. I don't know these are going to do it I have to fetch their run history from AWS for some reason because like it's oh it's a shared It's like a synced run history across machines. I didn't know they were on this machine or so I mean, I don't know how that doesn't make any sense. I should have sunk this ahead of time. But whatever

35:53 I would fire off that request but display the run dialogue on the next frame Right because I know that by the time they're actually able to hit the first key that I'll need to search that run dialogue for I probably will get at least some of that information back and so I'm covering a little bit of that latency and giving the user the instant response that I want to give them right And then if you know the response doesn't come back and they do hit a key and I'm sitting there and I'm like AWS not loading Then I have to put up a little spinner or something right just tell them like look AWS is is dick in me here. So I get it like you know run history not available to later. WS respond to the little thing

36:31 But you know, that's just how I think about it. So like I'm not being disingenuous. That is literally how I think about it And it pisses me off in games too like if I'm sitting there waiting for a loading screen that you I'm like guys you obviously could have streamed this in like why wasn't this already loaded like what's going on I get mad at that all the time. I'm just like the the goal should be zero weight states for the user pretty much ever So we've had a lot of arguments about this over over the years and who you end My previous team Shall we say and so one of the one of the big things was What's worse the initial loading or in app loading like which one actually makes a user more nuts

37:10 Which one's going to cause them to be more upset would you rather have a bunch of small distributed little loads Throughout the app or would you rather have a bigger initial load So in my mind usually so I would say that if I find myself in that literal position Then my answer would be how often do they load this thing but Before finding myself now because I would have asked the question are you sure Are you sure that you couldn't find a way to make this work because a lot of times if people are like oh We have no choice but this long initial load. I'm like are you sure like are you sure that you actually did everything you could To make that Initial package you needed to get started as small as possible right well. I'm on team bigger load

38:04 Initially that's if the app is but obviously within a threshold If the app is loaded infrequently then if you have to make that trade off I would say you do that if the app is loaded all the time because you like typically load this thing Do a little tiny thing and then close it then you're kind of in this nasty situation where it's like Okay, well, I don't know it's it's sort of just as bad right like because you know So I would say I wouldn't think about those things as different I would just say there's frequency of operation and cost of operation And you're trying to minimize the total of those right the cost times the you know the cost times the frequency And so if the frequency of launching this app is very high and the frequency of things you do in the app is very low

38:47 Then maybe it would make sense to actually try to minimize your app load time, but in general I would say like 99% of the time when someone's like oh, I needed to do X So that's why there's a long load time here. I'm like no, you didn't like I can think of tons of ways that I could have not done it that way Right like strip this out don't do it that way have a low quality version of that thing you stream in first Right like think mega texture right or Level of detail would be a better way to think of it right I know that I have something I can display for this thing It may not be the best looking version of that thing So if I'm caught by surprise I do that right away and then increase its resolution when I can right things like this

39:31 Or you can typically do things to try and make sure that you're very responsive and you know If you then decide like okay, no, we can't do that because this thing has to be saber scene link Sure, you can always paint yourself into a quarter where you where you absolutely have to this thing and then I agree you do But I would make sure all those avenues are exhausted first is I guess what I would say Yeah, we do have like some techniques that we call or that we coin call like progressive enhancement Which is yeah exactly the shittiest thing But if you have a good machine then we'll slowly enhance your experience, right? Which I think is fair But just go ahead god No, so just to try and get that nice responsive feel because you know

40:08 And that's again, that's just because that's the way I like things I like things to be very responsive Maybe some people just don't care they like they push the right button on something You know if you open up next, I should push the rights button It takes a while kind of lagging it goes I'm like that sucks like so much should fix this right if someone else might be like I don't know it's fine Right, and so and so it really depends on who you're talking to probably what their preference is on those two things right I don't know Does that make sense like you know some people might be fine with that some people might not be yeah I mean it's hard to Everyone has a different threshold really the tolerate right yeah

40:43 So yeah, it's hard like who do you optimize for like there's nothing I hate worse I would hate to have a quick experience like load Or like a quick loading experience, but then every time I click something it's like ah exactly now We got to have not that thing yeah, I think that's like significantly worse in my because the clicking is more frequent Right, it's that's I say like it's frequency versus cost if you're gonna click a hundred times in this thing But only load it once you don't want the hundred things to each take the long time and the one thing to be fast Right, that's not helping anybody right, so yeah That's what all my banking software looks like I got like open like my banking dashboard

41:16 It's just like 20 spinners and then I click something else and it's like 40 more spinners I'm like who's making these banking ads? It's also just got so many zeros in his you know It's just such a full bank account they're spinning forever to figure out what's in his account Because you know it's getting added to trash is bad account. It's like oh my goodness We have to widen this div. It's crazy What That's just you make sense trash You're not working right now I want to be working That's what I'm saying aren't you having fun hanging out with us when you still be on the bottom trash?

42:01 You're not paid to be on this Oh Oh red button blue button Oh, no I'm answering from now on when people ask that red blue question I'm giving trash his answer. It's the best answer I've ever heard and I loved it. It was so good I don't like it. I was thinking about the question deserved it was perfect I like I that was a teachable moment for me and I have learned from trash and I am a better person. You're welcome That's my opinion. Anyway, I really wanted to for the full episode Just like play I thought about just having the edit be it does trash is answer and then we play everything else on 16 x and then it just ends with Casey who's saying I hated this discussion Haha, I thought people would enjoy the overall conversation

43:01 But I did think about like publishing the full episode just with trash answering and then It was a good answer. It was freaking perfect dude. I loved it. My Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb Because I am just gonna throw this out there I also get an like an update just recently that restarts my computer like six times before the update actually happens And I just read an article from somewhere where it's just like it's actually totally normal That windows needs to up you know restarts your computer 15 times for an update like this is actually by design And so I think part of the problem that I I personally have is that they're like look at the run Dialogue performance and it's just like well that's something I virtually never use

43:45 Because I just don't I mean I don't do development on there So I'm not opening something that needs that typically. I'm you know I'm opening a couple things that have pinned. I use windows in a very rookie way And so it's just like none of these improvements really help me I still run into bugs all the time like right now For whatever reason we're back into this state where when I create a folder It's goes to the bottom of the list and not the top of the list like all the folders are on the top I created new when it goes to the bottom and so I have to leave and come back if I wanted up at the top again It's just like it's driving me bonkers again that there's so many little things are broken And I just want to like lose my marbles

44:20 And then there's like bro, but run dialogue dog is so bad I did it, but they didn't say that what they said is We read we're we're putting in a new run dialogue that was made with performance top of mind And great news it's basically the exact same speed as the old one Right that's what they said like nobody said that it actually substantially improved the run the performance So presumably what they were trying to say was we added some features Right, I'm guessing I assume I mean, I don't know because I don't care This is the other thing that I hate about the fact that this tweet got I guess so many likes that people started replying to it with this crap about fps, but anyway um I'm assuming that the idea is they added a bunch of features and didn't make it slower which is good right

45:11 I mean like I'm happy that they first time in a while Yeah, but at the same time it's like I wouldn't mention that Right, I wouldn't have cited some numbers and bid like hey like we're so proud of ourselves that we didn't slow down a run dialogue like I'm like Yeah, like like what that's like that's like par for the course. I mean, what are you talking about like of course you shouldn't have slowed down the time it takes to open the run dialogue That's a blog post now like what's going on right? So that alone too is just very frustrating because you're like now you're getting mad at That you're getting mad at me for replying to somebody who replied to your thing where all you did Was say that the run dialogue takes 94 milliseconds, which is a hell of a lot of time for something to take

46:01 And like how did we get here? You know, it's ridiculous. This shouldn't have even been news It shouldn't even have been posted. Well to be fair the person I got the person that most got mad at you Was actually a writer for something it wasn't that it was like a friend that could have owned in they could have got owned in a wikipedia page But instead Casey you're now getting a wikipedia page being mr fps you know falsifier Um, except it's not false. It is the it is the fps But yes, like the question I have There would also be like could we you propose this trade I believe to Jimmy Wales on the previous episode. Let's propose it now I can go back and Delete my original tweet and post a new tweet where I put the millisecond number in place of where the fps number now

46:49 Mind you my tweet had both because I quoted the millisecond number so it what it wasn't that I didn't Include that information right it was that they didn't like the even the fact that you could bring fps into it was just this Unholy, you know, absolutely Ridiculous thing to do but anyway I'll go back and delete that tweet and only mention milliseconds I won't mention fps anywhere in it in exchange for them writing a nice article about Odin Um, and how it's used that janga effects there we go That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal right. We all everyone wins Um, but I don't know if you know this but a kind of a little update Uh, this person named Phil which you can't really quite see well on my or the stream can't quite see it very well

47:40 But Phil over here wrote his own version in which takes approximately 20 milliseconds to show up on screen And so he's able to show a dialogue super alter quick And his own handwritten one Yeah, but the problem with that is that like um I'm just I'm just gonna put myself in the mind space of the people who were replying to my tweet Okay, take a moment take a moment. Take a moment. Yeah, the problem with that is isn't that demonstration doesn't mean anything Because that person didn't run it on all the same machines and take the median Mm-hmm. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter It's meaningless because he has a different monitor Also, he's not loading he's not loading the run history from Microsoft OneDrive or whatever that it is that this thing does right

48:31 So he's not doing the things I always get they're all ridiculous, but they're that they're like um, you know It's not an apples to apples comparison You don't have all the features. It's the features uh, it's um It's the plugins you just don't you don't have plugins plugins everyone knows that as soon as there's a concept of a plugin Everything is takes several seconds to happen um Casey you know that's what he will get you people reply with with that crap to that person even though he did it right So Casey you're actually missing kind of like a really fun part of web dev uh, which goes a little something like this Which is all right We're going to rewrite something and we're going to rewrite it and here's our kind of first implementation of it and it is 10 times

49:18 Faster, bro That's so good the previous version like this new version it's so fast and they release it and everyone's like high-fiving and then About three months later After you fully rewritten it it's effectively baseline or worse like typically it actually goes worse Like this happened with a very major project that I saw it actually got significantly worse memory usage And so it's just like but in the beginning it was so good So when I see it like a run dialogue rewrite that came in below budget I mean you don't realize what this does to me like I can't I don't even think it was possible So I'm actually very impressed I mean like I said I don't know I'm just saying what people will say I don't know I I thought for oh god

50:04 No, teach please I was gonna say initially when I saw the tweet I thought for sure I misread it because I thought they were saying the start menu thing the thing that people actually open You know, I'm saying the one that like sometimes you press the start thing and then it like it just doesn't show up for five seconds And then it shows like I was like good for yes Yeah, it shows me ads for edge and for being and like I was like wow good for them a feature that a regular every day person uses They rewrote from scratch and took from my experience median of five to ten seconds to load It feels like and they brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm like great good for them You see opposite of that right every single version of windows that gets slower

50:51 The start menu is still bad and the run menu that my parents don't know exists My mom has never seen the run menu. She does not know what that even means like if I were to tell it Oh, just use the run menu. She's like what is a run menu? I'm kind of confused about the run menu to be completely honest because Again, this is kind of like for historical reasons Originally the start menu did not really have the concept of like type to execute so Like if you look back at like a Windows 95 or Windows 2000 XP or a start menu Then what happened if I if I'm remembering correctly Is typing would be imp would be interpreted as like trying to hotkey through that menu So like you popped up the start menu using like the super key or whatever or the windows key or whatever

51:43 It would be called I guess the co-pilot key now Casey co-pilot would it know yeah right Um, it is yeah you push that the start button opens and you type a key I think it just hotkeys through that menu. It doesn't start Uh, it didn't originally I'd at least my recollection is it didn't originally start Accepting those as keystrokes to be interpreted as a command of some kind If you now do it like if I hit that button Uh, it it does so like if I hits the start menu button and I start typing It does sort of like a linuxy style thing where you start typing into a kind of ambiguous box That's just like I don't know. I'm gonna do something with this yeah D menu effectively effectively my question is

52:26 Why is there even a run menu to begin with now isn't that thing like what why are there two different things And I'm guessing and I could be wrong I'm guessing the answer is because the run menu is actually gonna run the thing Whereas the the box is like we have to keep that as like an idiot box Like it has to be a thing where you just type if you type in c colon Backslash uh, you know windows backslash notepad.exe into that or something We have to show you ads for our new co-pilot improved Uh, actually had that you or what it right like it has to it has to do all these other Business oriented operations So that can't be the run dialogue. We have to have this other run dialogue Is that the explanation because I don't really know like I don't know why there are two

53:15 Yeah, Casey unfortunately you're 100% right it will literally show you internet search results In the start menu Yeah, thank you for getting the search results. It's a thing uh, so I find Casey When can I say one more thing about that though, which is that Casey unfortunately you'll be really Pleased or sad to hear I don't know depending on you know Are we praying on Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure but Oftentimes it shows the internet search result higher than the local program in my experience on that where you start typing something I start typing slay this fire to and it doesn't pick the game It's going to pick a web search to bring me to slay this buyer to dot com or something like that instead and opens

54:03 It does a bunch of stuff at yeah, yeah, trash hold it up so we can see flip flip your you know point yourself away from the camera One password. This is a work machine. Hold on. It might reveal Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.

54:20 I'll be enough. I do have my password on the screen right now Don't don't say no are you kidding me right now? You can't admit that you cannot admit that out loud All right Stacy can I make can I make you even more frustrated? I mean I again like I don't care windows do whatever you want I switched. I don't care. The frustration was the tweets It's very mature of you So one thing that's kind of interesting about What's called the start menu is that you can you can kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a little bit So I can type in like s notes and hopefully I get what I'm wanting it doesn't quite work that well It pulls up results. I can't quite figure it out But the run one is definitely not fuzzy findable

55:27 Right So the run one you have to type in like the correct thing you have to say the program you're gonna run Which I assume is the intent right like it's trying it's trying to be more of a command line like Experience Which is why I this is why I assume that there are two which is kind of weird but like you know Yeah, and so that's that's the that's the interesting one is that you get a more fuzzy find plus internet results one for one And a no fuzzy find one for the other one and so but the update to the one that nobody know really generally most people don't use I assume yeah That's more for people who just like they they Back in the day they opened the start menu and selected run Which is how you originally got to this or you learned the hot key of win or something

56:13 And now that's just part of your workflow So we tried to keep it which I appreciate them doing like they could have just removed it Like you said very few people probably use it in relative to their gigantic user base But very few people in this case is still probably in the 100,000s right because windows is so huge Yeah, I think I most often see it in um Let's see kit bogey videos where the guys are trying to scam him and they make him run And The time I most often see the run menu is they say open up run menu type and then they say something insane to type in there By the way tj just so you know you could always disable search results if you wanted to oh I can I don't have any star menu leaders left now

56:59 Okay I guess you wanted to if you know it's fantastic pieces of star menu you could disable ads It's like a it's an available option We talked about this recently. I literally tried to boot up an old windows computer that I had So I could have it as a minecraft machine for my wife so that when we play minecraft together She just has one computer that we turn on and then it opens to minecraft basically It got stuck in an update loop where I couldn't download minecraft because it was waiting for windows updates But windows updates couldn't run because it was trying to run windows store problems And so they fought each other and I couldn't get an update or minecraft installed on the machine So I deleted everything and installed linux and put minecraft on their faster than I could get the windows update

57:47 Minecraft a a Microsoft product a Microsoft product. I had to run the Android emulated version of bedrock Minecraft on my linux machine Which I installed from scratch faster than I could figure out how to get the windows thing to work Because I had to do that because there was bedrock one. That's the one that we're running for my kid. So it's anyways. It's crazy I think Microsoft should just start shipping linux. I think it's over. I think they should just Put the windows in that too They should put a windows logo on linux and call it Microsoft linux Or something like that Microsoft winix And just windows 12. That's all I have to do that's just it's windows 12 windows 12 is just linux and they just and they just like like

58:33 Send all their source code to the wine developers because I as far as I'm concerned. It's over Like it's just it's over guys like it's over. All right Windows sub system for linux. It could be wind at what would be the opposite of sub system something that Consumers others windows super system. There we go little Linux. Yeah, it's still WSL But it's also colpilot It's called colpilot WSL Because people have been trying I mean people have been trying for decades to get things fixed at this point now And it's just it's too late like it's just like everyone was forced to go do other stuff now That's why this is happening no one wanted to do this Like like valden want to make steam OS like I didn't want to change our machines here to linux

59:17 I was fine with windows. They just they forced us to do it by just never caring about what any of us think And so now we're gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't matter Oh, great question. Can they win you back? What would Microsoft have to do to win you back They can't because I was that's what happens so When you have a customer who's been a customer for you know, I don't know 30 years for something or 25 years I don't I'd have to go count how long it was um since since like the early 90s probably I would say When I was like in high school. I think I started using windows But um doesn't matter like windows 3 1 and stuff Uh, so the point is when you have a customer who's been with you that long

1:00:07 And had all of their stuff like built on your system and was used to it and you know that was how they do their work The amount of work you're asking them to do to leave is pretty substantial In order to get to that point right it's not a like It's not a trial separation It's not a like we're just going to take some time to find each other and then we'll come back and see if this marriage still works it's not of that this is a Like I find you found you screwing the babysitter and we're getting divorced forever And I will never speak to you again and I'm taking the kids like that's That's how the windows thing went with me and I suspect that's how it went with a lot of people They were so bad for so long and so

1:00:53 Egregiously anti-user that the people who left because of that are never coming back like I'm never coming back ever There's nothing you could do to win me back I will die a user of some alternative operating system the question that they would need to ask is How do they stop that from happening to more people That's the only question left for them Casey I hear all those words you said the babysitter all that okay But what if just hear me out here, you know, you know how Holly would stop having good and new ideas What if windows Seven remastered Windows seven part two Windows seven performance edition Just throwing it out there whatever we went backwards. Okay, here's the thing is that's assuming that

1:01:43 uh You know that's to continue my analogy that's just like saying I've changed I what do you mean like what how do I know how do I know you're not gonna go if I take does now I have to do work to switch back to your platform What what guarantees do I have that you won't just start sucking again immediately right and none You've demonstrated what kind of company you are you've demonstrated how you treat your users You've demonstrated institutionally what you think of us Which is you don't think of us you don't care when we repeatedly say you need to fix this windows update situation When we repeatedly say that look all of these things are broken the fight like the explorer if you accidentally drag an icon over a network share

1:02:28 It pauses for several seconds Unrecoverably how long has not waiting what is that like I don't know this don't fix anything. I don't care anymore I don't want to rely on you anymore, right? It's gotten to the point where some random people on the internet who put together a Linux distribution and put up an ISO Are more reliable to me than you that is where you have gotten right In terms of what I think of your ability to provide software to me that I can rely on it's over It's it's it's done. There's no way there's nothing you could do. I will you know I would go start working on Linux to fix it before I would go back to windows So not even XP remastered hurdle No No, it's the it's the it's a loss of confidence complete loss of confidence in the institution, right?

1:03:21 Okay, but what about windows dose What about what we get we had Ms. Doss what about mr. Doss I did not even get the dose quite I didn't even get the joke the the dose I didn't even get it I mean that's just a judge is absurd Mr. Doss though, that's pretty funny Here's what I will say I don't remember if there was a windows two I remember there was a windows one and I remember there's a windows three I don't remember if there is a windows two was Started windows in 3.1 era. I never got to I never was on a windows one. I remember one was amazing You should go back and take a look. It's like it was a tiling window manager prime What believe it or not? Oh my god, so windows could actually handle windows well

1:04:18 Tiling people are all like tiling window manager. Oh my god. It's the hotness like baby. I had that with windows one You open up a new window all your other window That's what happened all your other windows strength look it up kids. Oh my gosh That actually hurts me a little bit bill gates brought you the tiling window manager all these noobs All these noobs thinking linux did that didn't do that. I knew it was maybe windows one theory I knew what tiling window managers were conspiracy by the gates foundation look it up DHH do you think you're doing something but you're just windows one baby you're just windows one Nothing new under the sun windows one open up calculator Like it only had like three things

1:05:01 Calculator Open up calculator again. Open up clock. I'm like clock to calculate. I was it was Word perfect. No pad. That's all you got now. It was word perfect back in the day Yeah, there was probably a couple apps that were actually important that people were using I don't know what they were but I just played around with it. I never used it for anything real True I was a little kid I was a little baby The heck I know I feel like trash just hasn't had a lot to say so trash what why don't you why don't you give us the last word Oh, I was gonna say I used to play cuba and family feud on my windows machine via floppy disk What is family feud the video game If you I used to just play family feud that family feud for like

1:05:42 10 hours a day. I don't know my windows machine. It was like the best time of my life How did you never bring that up after we hosted two family feuds like we would have featured you more highly in the show if we knew you're such a super fan Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing else to do with my time And to you in this I don't remember the family feud game I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it like they give you the category the thing like name something You pack for a vacation In you type it in you type it in and you have to get it exactly right or To get so see the scoreboard or like the x's and that was it. I would just play that non-stop Do you have a virtual family on the figures at just the same thing? I don't think it actually had people

1:06:22 It was just just like the things flipping they didn't even flip. I mean, it's just showing right right I mean it's the old days that the stuff was harder. Right. I think you burnt keeper was my little one and dig dug dig dug was another big one I played too dude my son just discovered dig dug we were out of there being beat with some friends And they had a little arcade thing down there. So then we started we started You know, he's five so we're but we started vibe coding a dig dug alternative for him to be able to play And like because he really liked that in one of them you could make Like jackhammer the ground there was like a 2.5 D version as well dig dug under covers of the I don't know crazy

1:07:01 Okay, I don't know they had other dig dug versions that I was unaware of but I remember the original and so we We just started building one with him. It was pretty sick. I don't know dig dug What dig dug? No, I mean, I know rampage. I know all the sickly digging around the street like 10 years later Like a decade after dig dug dig dug is way older. Okay, so maybe maybe okay, hold on Maybe I do know dig dug by accident I do have a nice little Atari machine like gigantic arcade machine That's an Atari machine with a few different games on it And one of them is a thing where you dig through the ground and these enemies try to get you and you like What appears to be a pump atom?

1:07:39 Yes, that's a couple more times and they pop Oh, that's dig dug. Okay Okay, I thought they were they burst. Yes, they burst. Yes. Okay, very it's a very graphic game. You explode people Yeah, it's kind of wild Yeah, I think doom was like the first game I played. I was like gore and it was like what happened here That was insane. That's a good game All right, well great final note trash. I appreciate that you're welcome You know, I actually feel bad for making me bring the show together like I don't know man You got I we got to keep him on the show. I have like a very interesting We're just lack message. I was like reading it like near the animals like I I guess go Kasey what that means though too is we have to make sure trash never gets rich because apparently as soon as he gets rich

1:08:26 He's leaving us behind Be like do not promote this man. He's questionable. See I get written in the sky full-time All right, oh my gosh, so by the way if anyone's if if we ever do a stand-up without the trash, you know why Yeah What's the what's the meme where it's like It if I become rich like there will be signs how what's the phrase? I won't it won't be obvious, but there will be signs You guys know that yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's trash not it's our podcast with three people The one the one episode before that happens the room he's in right now will just be it'll just be all Pokemon's are all like he's kind of like being crushed slowly by the cheer that is the dream yeah That is the dream hopefully we get there

1:09:21 Yeah, all right. Well, thank you very much for joining us for the stand-up We didn't there was an alternative topic. We might have talked about today, which was GitHub's uh big performance push as well Talk about that. I was like, I guess we're not getting to that Yeah, this went on a little bit too long. So that's something we'll probably have to do another time maybe Anyways, thank you for joining us. The name is Kasey Miritori trash teach agenda Oh