How We Got Our First Dev Job (Lost Episode)

Dude, it's funny because when I get like, and we do actually do real stamps at work or we have like, what do you mean? What do you mean? We have like, no! You're on another podcast? Yeah, that's offensive that there's another podcast called The Stand Up. Hey guys, it's Teach from the Future here. A little bit of context.

We were in LA at the lighthouse and we got to film an in-person stand-up together. Really hope you enjoy this. We're going to catch up and media res as they say in the biz. On trash saying how we got his first job working on mainframes. Hope you enjoy this and hope you learn something about getting your first job or the next job in tech.

Thanks everybody. Don't forget to like and subscribe. See ya. Seriously, I'll be like in these conversations where everyone's giving an input and they look at me like I'm like the intern because I look younger at the time. They're like, who are you? I'm like, bro. I've been doing this for like 10 plus years.

What are you talking about? You're like, what? Are you sure it's crazy? Are you sure it's crazy? Or like, you're not sure it's not your coach. That's all there are things that appear junior. We're going to pick though, guys. Even if you were 40, if you sort of programming day one, mainframes work that hot 40 years ago still.

Well, all the companies that use mainframes are not changing their tech stats. These jobs are around for us. Wait, so what were you literally writing from a company? Can you say? He won't even. He doesn't have a language. It was like this. He's social making this all right. He was like, what's the language?

He's social making this all right. He's social making this all right. He's social making this all right. He's social making this all right. He's social making this all right. It was, they sold like gear for, for like cranes and heavy industry stuff. This sounds made up. Why would you need a mainframe for selling cranes?

I don't know, but I was writing RPG. I did some cobalt some hard change. Oh, I played those kind of games before. You wouldn't understand. You're too young. Skyrim. No, I did some cobalt. I did four train. There's another language called Lanza. That was for like, let the bell in. He's not. I'm not that.

Check this out. We actually had a person come in once a week to grab our tapes because we backed everything up to a tape. So we had to learn how to do backups to a tape, put them in a vault. So I'm going to come and pick them up. A vault. It was like a guy like in an armored like, literally, a guy like in an armored car would come and collect our back up.

So this is like before. There's like financial data, all this stuff like our old like CRM, like support staff. They all use what we coded. You put support staff on. It was green screen programming. So like, when you went to McDonald's, like, probably. That's the time. It's not like a green screen programming.

So they have a green screen. He's saying it's fake. It's it's green screen. Okay. Okay. So check this out. So this is how I got the job. So when I graduate at the time, I came over the year, but there's a huge hiring freeze. No one was getting jobs in tech. Actually, it was kind of a little mess. Yeah.

I hired this year. Yeah. Listen to me. I found this job on Craigslist. It literally just said programming. It literally just said programming on Craigslist. Dash eight slash hour. I think I think that's actually programmer one. Space one. It's kind of like the level. Yeah. And I just like hail married because all my other friends, they all were getting jobs.

You graduated with a software like development. No. What did you graduate from? You don't remember your major. I graduated so a lot. No, no. Business at Manna. Manna. Business administration with information systems. I think it was like a focus and you could focus on different tracks. And I focused on databases.

And then in high school, I was in the Oracle SQL Academy. Oh, God. I was in high school. I was in the Oracle club. I mean, it was basically that. But um, yeah. So it's like chess club. Pretty cool. You want to ask me. We actually want regional. I was writing SQL when you guys are just like. Okay. So how did this work?

You went on Craigslist for whatever reason and you found a job. Programmer one. Clicked it. Just apply. I don't remember what it said. But post. How does Craig, I don't even remember. There's probably like a phone number or an email. I think you just send a email. I was just before email facts. Yeah, facts did.

I think they had a page or number and I beeped them. 911. Be three times to block. But check this out. So I go in. And the whole interview was on paper. There's three questions. Like here's a standard size piece of paper. Yeah. Three. And I had to write like a niff statement. A for loop. And then like some other thing.

And then like. Yeah, it was. I can't. Like this job. This job was just like. It was the most random job ever. Like I don't even know like. Like the fact that I found it. Got hired was just like a miracle. Like honestly, it was just like. It's just felt like someone made it up. Like you guys are saying it kind of just feels like it was made up.

But it's just like how I got started. This explains so much about Disney plus and Netflix. And blue. Every twice trash has worked. You didn't man it. And so the people that I used to work with. They still work today. And Netflix. I was at Hulu before Netflix. And Disney. Well, Disney bought Hulu. And then when I came back from like paternaly.

If it was like a full Disney takeover at that point. And then I merged with another Disney team. And I was like, I'm mad. That's what I'm saying. He's worked at like he's worked at all of them. I'm going to go to max next HBO. That's smart. Did you guys hear that? What about Amazon Prime? I'm never. I'm never.

I'm lost. Did you hear that? Did you hear that? What did I say? What are you saying? What are you saying? There are some good stuff over there. I don't know if that was an insult, a spasher, not because I've never watched TV. I hear what you're talking about. I know what seriously. I get that job was just crazy.

So I'm going to go like one step further just to the next job. So when I was grep, but before I graduated, IBM came and like interviewed a bunch of the seniors. Yeah. So I was supposed to go to IBM out of college from those interviews. But they did the hiring freeze and I was like so I was banking on IBM. I was like me out the heck So that's how I came to this job and then get this like check this out like a year later IBM was like randomly emails me was like the hiring freeze is over We're actually hiring we want you to potentially come back But you have to take like a math test and all these weird tests like time Yeah, so I remember how to I had to do like some math No, I'm being serious like they give you like an hour-long test of like it's almost like a

What kind of math did you have to do? Hit me with some probably like pre-cali at the hardest Pre-calc is pretty hard I don't remember pre-cal but to me at bad the time I was like pretty good at math But now I don't even know I'll do about this point dude, but I'm confused though because after done isn't a post calc or no shut up No, but take this out so it was like I think you had to do you had to do shapes You had to like finish like these patterns and all this stuff mixed in with math and then you only had an hour And I remember I was just singing my kitchen just like sweating my Wait you have yeah, I got the same person. I got how are you taking it for an hour, but is that home?

Yeah, it's just it's just online test. Oh No, no, like I'm not I'm not going to like a facility like I'm taking SAT or whatever Yeah, it's just the online To play frames an oracle we're assuming paper. Yeah, but at this but at the time like the internet wasn't really like There's no A.I. It's you can't really cheat like you can't Yeah, it's the 80s before the internet Do you know like looney tunes had self-driving stuff because they thought the A.I. is gonna come and do it all forever I'm sure but all right so trash. What's our takeaway for getting your job?

Yeah, your advice was terrible going crags. Oh, I supposed to give up. I thought I'll just talk about how I got my first job No, that's good. That's what I'm saying. So then I'm like the takeaway. What's the takeaway? What can we learn from take away is? When there's a hiring freeze, honestly, it's kind of look to be honest if I'm here if I'm being if I'm being It's not what it sounds like at all sounds like you were grinding on a bunch of places to find out my actual first job was Louie like I said it was like a miracle like stars aligned. It happened. I be am happened because I actually You know contrary to belief. I'm kind of smart. So I believe kind of smart But really like I think like I believe kind of

Yeah, but like actual advice like especially now because it was kind of like not as bad as it is 2008 nine I can't remember but like ultimately just came up to like not giving up and just like actually Believing in yourself the good jobs like I wasn't like the best programmer. I clicked on a program here. I Go on Craigslist be smart believing yourself guys. You have jobs now I mean Godspeed It's even a microphone My mic came off. He's sweaty. He's doing so hot in this chair like it's like my back is opening Craigslist is about to get like a bunch more Craigslist still exists it does still it still exists. It's still a 16 employees still killing it. Yeah, yeah I don't know how many employees actually have but 16 is a good guess. It is a good guess. I like that

Ever done that needs someone else. They just apparently listen on Craigslist Programmer one Programmer I don't want to see history. Yeah, just I knew I'd do it right in this statement and I was like yellow Let's go to this interview. I can't believe you had an interview where you had the righted if statement on paper Yeah, and a for loop. Oh, I don't remember the language. I don't even think it was like I think I could just like right Whatever I wanted I did like C++ and college. I think I do like C++ one piece of paper Python was invented Honestly, yeah, oh no Whether you are a vibe coder or an artistically free range NeoVim user You still need CI to build your binaries run tests and publish your releases. That's where blacksmith comes in

It takes your GitHub actions and with a one-line change makes them faster and cheaper get your CI running on high performance CPUs instead of GitHub's old servers We're happy to have them as a sponsor for this episode because just like us This one is truly a no-brainer sign up and enjoy faster GitHub action workflows at a much lower price Blacksmith twice the speed and half the cost check them out at blacksmith.sh and now back to the standup All right, vegan. What about you? Yeah, cuz you have a fun. You have a fun transition into tech Yeah, I came into tech pretty late like when I was like 25 24 25 the only thing is I will not tell what my first job is Who in tech because we will I will get kicked off the podcast get for six months. Is it because of the one with my uncle?

No, no, I will say is if we if we launch a patreon only Podcast I will tell the story of my first one, but I will not do it on a public camera because it is a little sketchy Um, everyone gets in the industry their own way my first job at a company that was like actual other programmers Um, not selling illegal things on the internet Yeah, um was I just went to Portland, Oregon and I literally and if anyone is in Oregon like a decade ago They might even know me. I went to every meetup I went to job at script Ruby Jeff ops. There's like a scrum manager me. I'm like, what's up guys? Just she and I have a scrum master I won't see what you guys are doing. I literally I'm not I think I went to like three or four meetups

Oh, we and then anyone who was working on anything I had no friends at the time. I go what are you guys working on can I help and then I would go home and just do As much of their project as I can to be like I did I helped and I helped and I made it responsive or there's to that And then I made friends that way and okay, it works. It's actually a good stride of just isn't really good And then I kept going to all the meetups again and again and again week over week and eventually some people are like Hey, you're kind of okay. Do you want to come in for lunch and meet some of the other co-workers?

And I meet some of the co-workers and then finally was like Maybe you could be a junior debt. We're hiring some junior if we already kind of know you we see what the meetups And I was like yeah, I'm out there and then no joke the first real job I got was applying to a ton of tech shop I want to win so bad the first one I really got the guys were like okay, so what what did you go to school for?

I'm like jazz Really good answer All jazz so I went there and they go for real. Well look there. There's a double bass in the quarter I play jazz Other guy I play sax and so they said great We have a guitar here and I played if you guys play jazz I played rhythm changes They have me actually go through rhythm changes, which is like you know, I've got rhythm I've got music if you don't know that song more. I need more to know that song I know there's one million variations of it or a bunch of jazz songs It's like a standard you have to play so they literally were like let's hear you play and they were like you are rusty at jazz It was bad honestly, and they were like hopefully your program means better. They saw that and they go

Also a little rusty at that But they said we'll give it a little bit like you're a jazz dude. We'll give you we'll give you a chance We'll risk it. Yeah, and I slept in the office for those first three months. Oh, okay New George costumes and then they said stop singing in the office like you're not even getting worked on it That smells You're just giving off bad vibes now I know it doesn't work for everyone because I moved to Portland, Oregon to be like I'm gonna get a job in Ruby I'm gonna go to all the Ruby movies the job is good me. Oops, and I just were you DHH fan at that point Oh, he's my hero. I used to read DHH's book back then Well, every piece of advice from DHH's book he wrote with his um

Well founder Jason Fried exactly Jason Fried Every piece of advice in that book I followed to a T. I remember it's like chapter four act like a drug dealer I was like done. Let's do that. I've been doing that. He hasn't stopped if you give me a little taste of some free code And then you say yeah, I got more when that came from and you want it? It's gonna cost you. No I was reading his book obsessively over and over again listening to every advice underwhelmed the competition I haven't read this book in like seven seven seven what does it mean underwhelmed the competition? So everyone's trying to do better for the competition lame do less Boom, what does that mean?

We'll have that You are friends with DHH. We can ask him Well, I don't come back on and you can quiz him about the book and see how much you remember DHH. Can you remember his own book? Yeah, it was rule number four No, I think the underwhelmed thing is like everyone's like I'm gonna do this crazy insane intense perfect experience And it was like we don't like any of this and you spend an hour like you're perfecting it you go Okay, here's something that's kind of like not that good, but it's a good idea to post genius ideas Let's work on that you know, it's like that Like how in notion for some reason they have like the AI search being the top thing instead of being search I want I want I want to type in the name of the thing and go to that page

That's underwhelmed the competition, right? It's like less bells and whistles. Yeah, I'm just like straight to the point Do what they actually like mean instead of well one what they say they want and definitely not what you imagine that thing Well, actually I'm actually getting actual practical advice and the other thing I did for every company is in Portland I would find the job. I want to a workout. I would know people that work that would go on I would look at whatever their stack is and then I would build websites with that exact stack It's like that's you want typescript postgres redis and I would go fantastic Here's my brand new website. It's a combination of typescript postgres and redis and I hooked it up

Yeah, yeah, try and get inside info about their stack and build on it Especially if there's like one thing that's off like type script everyone knows But if there's one thing where it's like we also use Kafka or we use what or something. I'm like Be Kafka expert in my reasoning one Kafka guy Accidentally read like six months of philosophy and stuff I'm so confused How is this integrated into their stack? That's what they said. They're a big Kafka place Also, there is something with Kafka like looking for bugs turning into a bug. We're gonna work on some stuff later around For sure one thing I noticed like so you're saying like do like the do meetups and stuff. Yeah, I was going to meetups not too long ago

I Felt like literally everyone there was just looking for a job like 99% and then maybe one recruiter But mostly you're just saying But mostly you're just saying that's a joke. Okay, a recruiter walks into a meetup We've all heard that joke is it because Meetups are no longer like a place to go Like is that what's happened? Is that is that what we're observing?

So now it's just people going there for job, but it's still like okay So imagine you're going to meetups for a long time You make friends with other people that are looking for jobs. Some of them are gonna get hired someday True right and so then if okay, so maybe it's suck to take six months to find the thing and you're applying at a lot of places But then maybe eventually you run into your buddy who you went to meet us for for a year and he's like bro I got hired here. Yeah, like oh my goodness I got hired in a group of three juniors. It was we're gonna take a risk on you three We became friends going to a Ruby meetup all the time. Yeah, and that was it They were like cool. We'll risk all all three of you. So yeah, I think it's good advice. Was it like if one of you got fired?

Everyone's getting fired. Oh, 100% 100% no, that was I this was the job where it was three like I mean I was the scrawnyest those indoor kid of all time. I this is back in my time. I'm an indoor kid This was when I was actively saying okay, I still can walk but I'm gonna transition into a wheelchair early I was honestly on this road of like why would I want to stand ever I could have the chair every I'm being so serious So Dude, why would you need to stand?

Like I'm not gonna pick any hobbies that I can't do in I'm 70 so I'm not gonna do any of these. I'm gonna start playing golf That was literally the I trash you've ever been like oh standing is so much fun I think it's more So when I started I was I'm in Portland. It's like in a real hippie dip. You know, it's how it is My boss he hires and he literally says all right. All right. It was me and two other guys We're doing yoga something Tuesdays and Thursdays working out Monday Wednesday Friday everyone gets a bike And I was like wait for real. I'm not a bike partner. They go you're getting a bite This is you became a person. I became a person. I became a yoga person I solved Rubik's cubes on the way to work on the bike exactly

But I got forced by my boss literally says do it and I said Well, wait because you'll be fired So he's the reason why you have fake teeth. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah You thought you got cancer Do you want another story? Tell it the right way. Yeah, I told this to No, you know, it's funny. Yeah, so I like to ride around Portland, Oregon on my bike a lot I do not like to follow any of the rules, right? I do not like to have lights on my I like to be dressed in all black I want to blend in stop sign. Don't know what those are zip fasteners. Those are for cars zip With the car and also I'm a big fan of doing Rubik's cubes doing work on my bike. I like to get stuff done I'm a multi-tasker. So I like to solve the cube and this is actually true

So mad when I do this. These are all things that are true. So in in in Portland. I'm doing this I'm biking home going a million miles an hour And I would just ran a stop sign and a car was going to the stop a truck as they were supposed to and they t-bone me Yeah, I flew into the air and the name me as one does Yeah, there's four landers families surrounded the van and said we saw you you hit that guy Hey, they were against the truck the truck drive Yeah, it's Portland right? So bikers are all right. So he didn't have a stop sign. You ran the stop sign. Yes It was A thousand percent is so my black Yeah, it's so my fault probably probably on my phone cubing and so I got it. They'll surround him and they don't let him get away

And then they called cops over and I'm like kind of injured. You know what I mean? They came to find you because you're in all black You're like, where'd you go? We just He just did a great it So I was in the middle I was definitely in the middle of the street and then they they stopped the guy and then found the cops We go through what happened to go. Oh, I'm an idiot. I ran a stop sign and that truck hit me and the truck driver was like Thank god. Oh my god Like the truck driver almost got his like license taken away Yeah, the mob was good. They're like Citizens arrest it was about to be a citizen's arrest. So so then obviously I said hey cops my bike got the story It got destroyed. I need due to help getting home

They took me home and everything's good. I just how fast did he how fast was he going? It's pretty fat pretty mostly How fast was he like how did you go home? Oh, he was a lot of the hospital pick no at no hospital Yeah, they put me in the cops. They go to the office. They'll say the accident. They don't go to hospitals Yeah, so we they put the cop they put them back in the cop car we go home I go to bed everything's good the next day. I go to wake up and I can't walk anymore. Yeah Don't have the ability to walk I wake up my legs are bruised this big purple like and I cannot walk and so I'm like Okay, it's fine. I'm a programmer. I'll just work from home from now on So I work from home from now on, but then over the next couple weeks. I developed ball cancer

So the next couple weeks. I slowly started having very intense pain in my testicles And so obviously I got on Google and I found out that oh, I probably have ball cancer So there was the top result first symptoms right time for the symptoms like my balls are cancer But there's a reason why you thought that it was vegan Why did you think that it was probably testicular cancer? Well, I looked at it says okay My balls hurt where it could be ball cancer, and I said okay greater you wearing tight pants like oh, I'm tight It's pants you ever see They were tight as they go in Portland. He got tight. They were seen tight So so I said okay, no big deal. I work from home. So I just will not wear pants for a couple weeks

So I just stop wearing pants Which is pretty good So he quit wearing pants. So I sat I Think a robe over a week. I was in a rope, but I'm not joking over the week The pain is getting worse and worse until like I couldn't get it a bed anymore Yeah, so I was assuming probably the laptop on the balls are really causing more cancer Why the why the radiation No, no, they're getting smaller No, it hurts so and finally I was like okay, cool. It's been three weeks. I'm gonna die of cancer I might as well go to the doctor And so I finally scared my first doctor appointment ever went there and I said hi, man Like you know my balls really really hurt. Can you help me out here? I have cancer. I know I said

I tie if I have to stick their cancer. I confirmed it on web mp I love that you're telling the doctor that you have cancer. I have cancer. I just want you to know that he he you know You have to get and if you haven't gone through this trash they have to fondle you a lot naked to find this out So he you get naked and he follows your balls and then he says how does that feel and you say very weird And then also painful and then he asked the greatest question He says were you in any recent trauma? I go yes, I was hit by a car. He goes did you come to the hospital? I go Course, I didn't any goes for you're an idiot who crushed your penis tube In a bike accident You have to come to the hospital So it wasn't cancer

So that was the last time to the doctor that was a decade ago and we did but I stayed there all day we take a decade ago Oh, that's not the one. Yeah, it's not the matter. We did ever cast too. I got I went I got the rest of them. I was there. I said okay, we're gonna do is once so I stayed there all day It's more blood. I try to get the ammo right thing and they were like you can't get back What about cats can you get a cat scan? So that's the start of me getting it. Oh, yeah Yeah, but I got I started in organs where I started getting a major bike accident and it continued all the way to LA and But getting a major job It's not in the same story. No, no, no, no, I don't think we're done yet. I don't think we're doing it jobs

Do you have any other practical advice? Okay, okay, okay So so I think a lot of people they have a problem where if you are in a city that has meat up So I always tell people just do it you do in Portland, Oregon or San Francisco go to a meat up every day Yeah, you know the meat ups you have so obviously you don't have that you got to go online The problem is when people go online. They go to like the town square They go to Twitter think about going in the middle of New York like a time square and be like I want to make some friends here Who wants to be friends? Who? It's like you're not gonna do it. So they're not good at it either No, and they're it doesn't work. I'm trying to make friends at times square. Okay, that naked cowboy

He was nice and then he charges you Like we're vibing no, so like you have to find or I call him like online communities neighborhoods online Maybe we're with you're interacting regularly you meet someone's like I know recently I was doing like some like a rust-to-y stuff a little rat-to-y. Yeah, you pop in there like oh look at this a discord for this Wow, there's not that many people here if you just chat here for a month There's someone makes some cool project these people know you and then one of them might have a rust job You're trying to get a rust job and whatnot so like I think people they immediately go to Twitter and like Hi, I'm a developer. Why's no one seeing me? It's like you got to pick a smaller online area and that usually is like

Get up issues for a project. Yeah, let's discord slide and it can't be it can't be like You do that for one week and then you're like hey guys. Where's my job? Yes, it needs to be like You're just doing cool stuff because you're excited about it and doing them And then like it might be that that one needs you job It might not be but it can't be like this sort of quid pro quo like I'm putting in this time And I one of you guys better hire me or I'm gonna have a meltdown. Oh, yeah You never desperate kills you Yeah, yeah, yeah, also don't come into hot. Yeah, I mean conversation can't be so transactional We're like I'm being your friend because I want to yeah, like you have to be like very personable enough perhaps be interested in the technology itself

It's best that it's like it's some employable technology and you're passionate about it So then you're doing something you can be learning skills and doing all this other stuff And then maybe what comes from that is like an offer or a relationship or something else. It can't just be I see that next JS is the thing to get hired for so I'm gonna go hang out on the forums a little and then I'm just gonna I'm gonna instantly fly every time someone says something bad about next JS and I'm gonna be the next JS defender dude So there's usually a mining with the crew that I was when I got to find this crew to import and I was like all juniors We're getting hired for one of them was like open sources of the key watch this

I built any built a little piece of code that went through GitHub repost look for sculling mistakes fix them And he's like I've been chained it over 500 repos this month He was like kind of an open source god. You're only working on just me of him. Oh, okay I I have over 500 goods on separate project because it was like dude. I don't think you're learning anything He didn't know about that that that bought is very impressive Also, I shouldn't tell everyone this but you guys know that you can't just write a script You can just code and have your GitHub show whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah, okay guys You do not have to actually code every day. You can have it say whatever you like those scripts that make like

That's what it's cool. You like spelled with dark green and you're like trash. Yeah, exactly. Oh, no, if I'm gonna do that trash Yeah, cuz you run a room Trash D what I Don't get it trash D. Okay, they're gonna Well, T. She just shared stories. I already yeah first of all if you guys don't know teach one of the few programmers I knew he was like a D1 recruit. I mean like what you gotta you gotta Chevy And they have one recruit. I can't talk about the freedom They're gonna they're gonna take away my trophy. Oh shit. Oh, for every now and then yeah This was before they let the NCA like pay for college kids you know You're like the real deal for all this, but that's not how I got my any of my first jobs. Well, then prove us wrong

Tell us more. He had told us more every firm. Okay, McKinsey McKinsey So I got my I mean I got my first job out of school working at epic medical health records company Not fortnight. I am saying every time because I know there's some percent of people like he was No, no, that was on prime was streaming fortnight, and I was not not there. So it's true No, so the medical medical medical health records place. I got there I mean like pretty much more or less The normal way they came to like a job fair at my school I got in contact with them did interviews while I was in school wait wait job fairs are normal I've never been to one. Yeah, but that's that's because you didn't go to anything at school

You went to jazz school. They don't have job fairs for yeah, what's the job fairs all the time it's called the club They had star box Yeah, they have job fairs of his school. They were always advertising. They needed baristas Wait, did you got all of the job fairs? Yeah, yeah, you've been the job fair trash No, he got his on But I have been a job fairs like when I was in college. It's a TV thing. I didn't know those were really it was kind of like every single job For like in the office. That's what I like job fairs from yeah, you can't just like correct a record T.J I mean it came to that like People I did not make a great school so I was Where job fairs I want to like it wasn't it was not like I believe

What it was D1 okay, he was a D1 D1 Yeah, so I mean for me it was I mean it was basically like the job fair part wasn't that important Really about it was just like I applied online and went through the stuff and got hired there But though like more interesting one is when I wanted to get my first remote job Because I was I was just like Random Midwest dude who worked at a company with like all technology from the 70s that was completely irrelevant to every other job It was like a weird no-sequel scripting language That is what you're trying to say it was like we didn't have to do tapes So maybe it was more advanced. I mean it was a different it was a different era between me and trash. You know what I'm saying?

so 10 years later Different deck tapes got tapes to go on but the so I wanted to get her a much But I didn't know anybody. I hadn't even really done very much contributing to me of him I would definitely was not even contributed in the open yet. Yeah Contrary to vegans contrary to vegans take I was not like most of the way to like being known for open source or anything like that I was just what was the first open source project you contribute to yeah, there you go guys everyone imagine that what's your first open source project I'll just the editor used by literally 10 people but the way that I got my first remote job Which maybe is like more relevant for lots of people there is one you have to find

Ways especially if you have sort of like mine was I would say like somewhat traditional of a resume But not super helpful because I didn't have any experience in any of the technologies that I wanted to do So it's definitely getting screened Like your shackle was a little rank on there, right? I definitely was not answering stuff on sack overflow Why not because it's lame?

It was not lame 10 years ago. I'm not gonna. I try to get my reputation out of them Yeah, I try to get my reputation. I was working on my rep until I got and this is true I got an entire we work IP band from stack over flow Can we come back? We're gonna circle back so So but like so I had to resume that probably would not be super helpful like getting a job at anywhere that I wanted to get Yeah, I hired that so you need to find a way to get a like personal email that is posted somewhere online So that could be happen news who's hiring that could be like some smaller site like angelist calm at the time I think it was called they're like I don't know what any of the start-up ones are now you need some way to get a like person

email That you can email directly and make your pitch for why you're a good fit for the company That then means and I did this for probably at least a hundred companies would be my guess before I got one interview and then I Got an interview and got hired in that place. So that was good, but like You have to go I like I because I remember doing it literally for probably like two or three months because I was gonna I wanted to move back home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm my family again And so like every night that's what I was doing was finding new companies doing this and then you need to go and like What's their company mission? What's their stack that you're interested in doing?

What's their like values? What are cool things that they've done and then write not chat you be T write your own Pitch for why you match those the best like I literally got Through the first door because I talked about this one place like hey, we really like Empathy I wrote about how came in and I were going and volunteering at this thing like on and how it was really cool And I learned a lot about other people and they're like, oh, that's that's interesting. That's that's the unique thing That said, yeah, we'll give you a shot and then that's the place that I got hired at Yeah, if you apply for like a CRM like do you know, just me and my wife passionate about managing customers data in life exactly

We do every night every now to go home. I make my own Whatever just lie and say your passion about being my wife her passion about customers data Yeah, and you guys can at home say they don't care about values somebody at the company does I want you put it on there and it might be the person whose email is there and at the very least It shows that you know something about that company that already puts you above 95% of the other people because 95% of the people are just Spraying and praying they're just sending resumes every place they can especially now I'm going to sign up for AI automated shooting at my thing everywhere to write a book if you can do anything Every single little thing you can do that does one unique aspect about you might be the foot in the door that you need to get that first

Shop because like I'm saying I was a random guy from the Midwest using an outdated tech stack And I got hired by a cool like startup that did Python, which is what I want to do at the time that made fortnight is programming fortnight Just ran in the Midwest in yeah, so that would be that's my like you've you gotta find some way to represent yourself Uniquely, right and especially if you can find a way to match that into what the company does that's that's what best advice that advice that work I don't think I've ever wrote a not saying you shouldn't I just don't think I've ever Wrote a cover letter nor have I really read them when someone did send me one you should write a cover letter Yeah, I'm not saying is that I'm just saying like yeah, like I feel like so like for the jobs when I was like reviewing resumes

I always just go straight to like the experience. Yeah, do you hit all these marks? I'll be honest. Yeah, I don't I don't ever read the cover letters. I came down in the last time I read a resume. I Mean the way you guys are probably the wrong people to ask anyways Well, I mean, I think it depends on like the level too. It's like if I'm interviewing for seniors. I just go straight to the experience Well, no, it's it depends. It's like it's like if I'm looking for someone to more junior, right? It's what's riskier No matter what we're gambling more. Yeah, and so if I'm gambling more I'm gonna pull in more piece of information data like someone in the chat mentioned like writing a blog I see a junior has written a blog. It's just like oh pumps up a little bit now

That doesn't matter as much for senior person. I'm like what is your code? How are you contributing? Yeah The junior person's like oh, they show initiative But like I don't I if I can get a big signal from something that they send to me that the seniors a pleasant person to work with That they have skills to work on a team. I don't care if you write awesome code and everyone hates your guts I don't want to work on a team. We don't want to hire you You're gonna tank our company's culture. You're gonna trash all the code You're gonna be the 155 IQ Haskler who abstracts everything into clouds and then our company gets tanked because we get laughed by the people writing JavaScript and putting as any like

So and they're gonna do as any in JavaScript. I try you can in bun You can so right so I so it's like those are those are important like signals You can send especially if you're like angling for a new stack or you're angling somewhere else or you have some Non-traditional like background for the job you're hiring. It's like for me I would way rather see a signal that this is like a Good person to work with that they have social skills that work well on our team than it is like I see they've worked at Wherever I hate this. I hate this one thing. I see online the most people are like oh my god Everyone's was like your network gets you hired. I've been in deck for 20 years that hasn't worked for me and I was go

You're tambling on yourself That's a self report. Sorry to tell you take talks sucks. There's nothing but young girls dancing half-make it would It's an algorithm. It's like it's yeah a lot of people don't realize that yeah, you you messed up a bunch Yeah, you've you've hit heart on the wrong on the wrong TikToks then buddy Yeah, so it's like yeah because you you meet people and if you're actually a pleasure to work with and you do a good job People want to work with you again. Yeah, even if they're at a good place or whatever. It also doesn't like what kind of kind of company going for because yeah I mostly come from like startups and it's yeah, it's like okay, it's smaller We might end up with some weekends and some nights. Yeah, I'm gonna be with someone on my weekends on a Saturday night

I got to like a more yeah, like the more I'm gonna spend time with you in off hours the more you need to be cool So I think it's easier sometimes to be like Quarantle the personality high here. That's a little bit like rougher and then prove yourself Yeah, that's a good point because that's where I was like looking to get hired was a smaller Company doing remote work doing more of a different stack and stuff like that So I like that sort of writing a cover letter Finding a real person to get an email there like those are ways that I think you can get help. What about you, Brian?

Hey, thank you for you didn't finish your sentence in years. I know But I was excited now. I was like I don't have anything else to say. I think I got a little bit slightly different advice Then you guys I kind of took us a more non-traditional route first off. I was start with fortnight I was 25 when I graduated from college and no, I was not a doctor Okay, some of us take a little bit longer to get through you know the old college Yeah, and so what I what I did is that the very first thing I did is I tried to make my own company I just thought that was obviously I was just I know literally that I think every person my age was so affected by the social network when that movie dropped You're like 24 years old and it's just like this guy is a dude

This guy is just like I did it screwed all my friends and made a billion dollars. I'm like I could be this guy Wait To rethink this show what's eldo on okay, that would want to be him anyway So that's like that got me all pumped up about like I could make anything I want yeah, and so I spent years doing that And when it inevitably failed which it did by the way trash can you not adjust your mic hearing my talking This is my soliloquy. It's fine. The recording. I don't know. I'm just talking about the live audience. Hello YouTube You can hear us nice loud and clear later later. Sorry twitch you guys are awesome awesome twitch. Yeah, also youtube and twitter if you're there So we don't know actually so that's kind of like one one of my big first things is that I think to be

Employable, it's really great to have done something yourself Because I have like a well to draw on so I spent two years being so broke that me and my wife got in an argument like I heated Is this is this the end? Are we getting a divorce because she wanted to buy almond butter and I'm like girl We don't have money to do that. It's got almond butter We don't got almond butter money. I'm fighting with her about Actually, TJ was over when she brought up that one and she was just like we could have done I'm like, I don't think we could have like we will still fight about that one, but it's very true. It's like we were so Broke and we just did this for so long and then when I finally said okay, I need to get a job

I felt like it was a lot easier in the sense because everyone I talked to I could just like talk about what I did And I had this uh the skill which I think anyone can have the skill which is you find the job you want to work for You figure out the stories of your own life that match what that job is and when they say Hey, tell me something about yourself. You're like I got a story that's gonna line up with her text out that's gonna line up with their mission And I'm about to drop the story so they they like are obligated to ask follow questions I'm gonna steer the conversation this entire time because I'm the owner of this conversation They're trying to get information from me and so I'd always just figure out everything

I want to say when I went and interviewed at Netflix I did the exact same thing read the entire culture deck came up with like five separate questions And when someone come in I'd be like boom you say that you want like A players And if there's a B player you give an A grade severance like what does that mean for work-life balance because does that mean I'm working all day every day because you also claim 40 hours a week So how can you be all those things right and just like challenge them on every single point when they ask a question I was never afraid to challenge them even on the question like when someone uh again This was at Netflix. I've called people stupid in multiple interviews I'm not recommending you do that

But it is it is sometimes worth it if you if you already feel you have a good report You we or the interview were the interview we and someone was just like oh because I was I was they asked me like What would you change about a product? I said the Xbox search is super terrible again. I learned everything about the product I went and used it. I never once touched Netflix in my entire lifetime until I got an interview I watched all of Battlestar goactica in like two weeks and used the product every single day for like six hours I did you get them to mail you all those DVDs?

That's crazy This was 2013 tough guy they had streaming okay They already went through quickster. No shut up And so then they would I do is that when they asked me about that Someone actually had the goal to be like our Xbox search is not that bad And I said false it is the worst product you have ever created and here's why it's terrible And like went on like a whole thing told them how not only could they change it What would be better? How you would measure it would be better versus the old one I came up with time you know from search to play What is that distance? How many successful searches are they doing?

Are they giving up like came up with every possible thing? And so that way I came in prepared pre-prime ready just to rock on any question Because I knew I was going to get a bunch of these type of questions And so it's like this is what I want to change about your company This is what I think I can do really good for you Here's a story about what you guys do and this is why I would be good to be there Like I was so focused at every single company I did and then I do research So the first job I ever got the person that worked there I found his brother and mean his brother had a common link And so I was just like what kind of questions do they ask there And he's just like do they love this the crystal ball the two

The you get you have a crystal ball you have two of them need to find out when they break So you can drop it down these stairs But the moment it breaks how do you find the next step as fast as possible Right like how do you know where it actually breaks at? The answer is simple you have to drop its square root of n And then when it breaks you only have to back up square root and then Linearly go through square root of n And so it's actually the fastest way because if you did it with binary If you went halfway down and dropped it it broke you'd have to do half of n search So I knew all this and I came in on it And they actually tried to tell me it was the log n thing and I was just like Here's why you're wrong broken all down like this is actually how you do your problem

Like I researched a crap out of the problem dude I was so I was so ready for the problem because I went to all this research Dude I was just like out there. I was just ready and I'd find out everything I can And the jobs I didn't do that on which I can think of one which is one was oracle Back then I was right now technologies and the other one was Google He didn't figure out how to work that piece right I literally when I didn't read the Google like manifesto for hiring which says Read cracking the coding interview I didn't read it did not get the job the first time The second time I read the manifesto it said read this book I read the book I asked three questions right out of the book Yeah pass it walked right in guy and it's just like this is so stupid like why

Just read just do the thing and so that's what I'm saying that's like very similar to Yeah like the advice on research you have to do the research And then find ways to show that you did it Yeah just showing that you're interested at all And working at that place okay you're already better than 90% of the people that I'm applying Right because they're just like well I'll work anywhere I'll do whatever you like okay Well I want to work here yeah my work will look like I care Yeah okay dude that's already better than a bunch of people they hired you know like Yeah and I didn't have one other thing that was good I did do career fairs and our career fairs were okay we had like two or three tech companies

Because there's bosom in Montana there's virtually no one there But I found out everything about those companies and I came in just hot I'd find them I would talk to them I would just sell it In fact one of the offers I got to work at Underwater Warfare in Seattle Was because I made the strongest eye contact She said no one in my great made eye contact And I just looked her in the eye and talked her the entire time And at the end of it she's like you know what I'm going to say yes to you Because you looked me in the eye the entire time And I was just like yeah unbroken What company is that because I will be showing them for ableism The Autist will take that company down I will him and the portlandia

Portlandia about to shut that Prime's advice was watch all the Battlestar Galactica All the Battlestar Galactica Stalk people I believe Yeah yeah find out everything you can And then craft your stories around that so that they have to ask you follow ups You craft your stories and then also memorize all the course But I stole an answer is what they're going to leak Dude if somebody's if somebody's willing to tell you what they're going to talk I mean that's what lead code is today Yeah, it's just like hey I heard this I heard they ask this question So just like I memorize all the questions I just learn them all One other thing that I thought was super super Dupor good to do is that when you get the chance to talk to somebody

Come up with questions. Yes like just like Never be the guy that goes and when you have five minutes left and they ask you that You should have like two or three questions and practice it with somebody in real life. Yeah, that's like a huge thing I do is I'd be like hey you can't just be like Um, do you like working at here?

No, I can't actually grab my college like like Whatever you call them cohort and I'd actually ask them like hey, I need you to ask me these questions I need you to try to give me a mock interview because I want to be the best there is I want to train for this I RPG did I was like my stats way high on the question That's what trash was writing So I will say on the question side like especially if you're a junior because I know them we probably all like interview a lot of people I'm looking for a junior who is asking questions about what how are they going to learning be mentored?

Yes, you know to mean because you know, okay, you're not god programmer Yeah, they ask like hey, how does it work? How do we do do we do pair coder viewings? When do we do we do learning times do we have refactor Fridays or what if they're not asking questions about how they elevate their skills Yeah, oh, that's a problem if they ask you don't have to say like oh, you're a genius now you're like look at you're asking Yeah, I'm like it shows that they're going to be willing to like take code review or like some suggestion on the PR Yes, and be like okay, I will change it so that it can be good You do now want to be the junior who's saying well actually I learned at school you guys are all wrong

But all the time right I bend that junior. Yeah, I have been that junior sometimes you're right It's but also sometimes You're right wrong more often also dude software is also a social game Like you working with people you're making stuff together team sport. So sometimes team sport sometimes the technically Right answer is the wrong answer for the company because you got to burn too many bridges or spend too much social capital Or get the wrong person angry. So just say that's okay. You can make the wrong one here Maybe you tell your boss. Yeah, I'm I think this isn't the greatest so you can have it down later So you're not the one that gets framed for the how it turns out in six months when it was wrong or whatever

But yeah, so it's like sometimes you just got to do that and that's okay And can you be that junior right or can you be that person at the company? You can give signals by asking your questions about learning and all this other stuff that will give a strong signal Like every time I've had a really Where the interviewer or interview we who's a junior and asking good question I've always said basically yes I don't think I've ever had one where for a junior role and they were asking questions Even if they like messed up parts of the other coding thing I'm like still yeah, they they're ready to learn they're ready to be mentor They're ready to get back just like too chatty Pass I've actually struggled interviewing interns and juniors because especially when they're all like I want to learn

Yeah, and I'm willing to do it and then I'm like shit I don't have like I'm always looking for a differentiator like you know Because like I can at this point everyone has given the advice like you know you got to be eager to learn you want to grow So I don't know you'd be surprised. Yeah, but yeah, I definitely had like bad news. I've had a lot of yeah I have a lot of bad ones, but when they're good. It's like man like how do I like discern them?

How do I pick them up do I use you know get home contributions or You know, obviously there's a consensus usually the interview with multiple people But sometimes it's like man they were both like so passionate Really learn like how do we how do we pick one and almost just feels like not like we're actually flipping a coin Yeah, it's almost to that effect like it's man. I could work with either one like yeah, like I can't make this decision That's when you just say boss you got inside they both get yesterday I've had a job where our goals with interviewing is actually trying to push the person past their knowledge to see how they act That is the goal. So we just take one topic and going deeper deeper deeper. You're trying to I want them to say

Oh, actually, I don't really know that here's what I think maybe here's how to research and it's so funny I guess half the people good developers are like oh, I don't know here's how to research. Yeah, the others go Yeah, yeah, so check it out. It's uh, yeah, it's probably a certain line my favorite interview that's real That actually at the place my first remote job when I done all this stuff the last stage of the interview was pair programming It's small company so like with the founder right because it's just small right so it's like because you and oh my goodness A pair program. It's not funny. It's a real technique. Yeah, but so we just pick that They pick a random like crazy competition programming problem that he doesn't know how to solve

And we tried to solve it together. Oh, that's fun and we lit we didn't solve it We worked on it for an hour. We didn't know what the solution was we did not know what the social solution is when we were done I actually love that that's actually kind of fun and it was like neither of us are going to solve it But let's try and you know he was he was giving some ideas I was giving some ideas right and like it was totally fine. We got to the end and It was very obvious. We could work together. Yeah, because when you're at your job you don't know what the azure is That's the whole point of the company You're iterating on new ideas. It's sometimes know the answer. Yeah, but a lot of the time But even if you know what the answer is to this solution you always don't know how do we get better?

I mean maybe I don't know You don't know I don't know your answer. We're all meeting you away. You're getting fired. I write the network jack. I know how it works Yeah, a severance coming your way buddy So that's obviously hard because you can't do it for everybody when they first come in Yeah, but like as a final pass for an interview That was one of my favorite. That was probably my favorite interview process. I ever did was that first one And I really liked that because both of us didn't know so I also got to see Do I like working with you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Oh, that's what I was gonna take either way That is a very good note People don't often like think about this that an interview isn't just them seeing if they want to hire you

It's also do you like these people? Yeah, like do you actually want to work with these people because I've had interviews where I'm like I don't want to work with this guy. Yeah, this guy's like yeah, not just this is not gonna work out for me Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say for the like when you're trying to find out if you like a person or not like when you go back and Where like think of a bit of like a date, you know And that's why the eye contact's important. That's why you got to share some things about yourself that are gonna be maybe not the most You know, I'm a little weird to be honest. I don't want to get Okay, no, no, there's a little. I don't want to get hired and then be like what he's eccentric

Right, it's like that's I really don't need bad time So it's like everybody would be having a bad. Yeah, so you kind of want to you got to show him You're trying to show him like I hope this works out good because you're gonna really hate me If you don't and you shouldn't feel bad if you're like, you know Yeah, they're gonna not hire me because I'm loud then I don't want to work there. I do not want to be at the company So yeah, no, that's good. That's good That's good. You should you should you should really tell your story about how you got Stack overflow band for an entire and then we'll wrap so yeah, okay If you guys don't know stack overflow back in the days is an old website if this is pre-chatch ebt

So this is like forever ago when you wanted to find out why code was broken you go to stack overflow Like six most viewed website of the internet at the time. Yeah, yeah, so if you guys didn't know this was back when I was really trying to be a DevOps boy running a DevOps meeting Everything hashi cork was doing. Oh my god. This is post-ruby Derser go phase switch to go okay now DHH no longer my hero Mitchell Hashimoto is my new hero I'm gonna be like him and now yeah, and so I'm going I'm just like literally every time there was a terraform update I was you know ready to be So I'm trying to be a good contribute on stack overflow answer answers And I'm giving the best answers possible where it's like fit there because there's a couple different directions

Here's a link to some information. Here's a different style when you're new on stack overflow You can't post 40 links. You can't post a bunch of formatted code. You have to have a higher score Yeah, so I was at a start of that we work so I said everyone pull up the stack overflow post Is there up voting all of my post So we can I can get enough points to answer people's questions to be a good guy We did that for a minute and I'm not joking. We got IP bands like right away And I went out to the little we work everyone's hanging out. Yeah, and people like my boss doesn't understand The overalls down And multiple devs were like pissed off and they're all like it was we were so it wasn't like a bunch like super

Oh my god They don't understand I have to take day off like what is gonna who did this and not just that It said our company name on it. It had just our so they were like trying to find our cubicle So it was like I don't know how yeah, so it was it was bad is so it came back the next day was a whole day Then it was gone. That's so awesome. Yeah, so don't manipulate the stack. Oh, we're not the word anymore Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. They they're gone. They've already been accumulated Jeff Just up pledged a hundred million of his dollars to give away the charity right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's like I was like, oh, yes, that's what we're done must we'll give the money away and start? Yeah, I'm done with that. So it's fine. Yeah

Whoops, you've got IP band up any place that we're before never jeer taking on jeer. I have never been IP band But I have been threatened by stack overflow with a handwritten message. Oh, I know Yeah, that one is funny. We'll have to save that for the next episode. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, beautiful. The next episode Thanks everybody. This was the state of life. Hopefully you enjoyed it I know if you watch this live the audio is tough. Don't worry. You can watch this later on YouTube on YouTube channel And you will be able to see this on Spotify Which you can watch and listen right now. Yeah, Spotify's up these days.

podcast Listening platforms everywhere. So you can go there this is weekly. This is twice a week We just don't do a lot. We don't usually do it in person and yeah, do you want to tell you while you're Hey, just hey, just someone in chat. Just do a bang stand up, right? If you just do bang stand up I think you should shoot out both the Spotify link. Yeah, and the other one. This is the reason why we don't do this So damn short. I know it's a little short Yeah, next time we'll next time we'll figure it out For it to get these mics hooked up to the first time. There you go. There's YouTube. They're Spotify. Yep. So thanks everybody The audio we fixed in post. Can we play the ball song? No, we can't right now because I don't know how to get that audio through there

They're gonna have to say can I just play it right here and you're near Amsterdam You can come to touch Connie you me and prime will be there as well as being actually Live I don't know. I just got my passport today and I fly tomorrow. Yep. So hopefully that'll happen But that's literally gonna. That's why like blasting their ear. It's gonna spoil you don't get the rest of song I'll play the rest. Please. Okay. That's it. Thanks everybody. We'll see you the rest of it Follow the podcast on Spotify. Give it five stars if you're there But don't everyone do it at once. We don't want to get IPB. Yes, please, please separate it out. We don't Everyone pick a time Oh

How We Got Our First Dev Job (Lost Episode)

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