Amy Acton Ad: The Survivors’ Take with Deondra Brown and Michelle Denault

0:01Elizabeth Smart Today's episode includes discussion of sensitive topics, including sexual assault and crimes against children. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Survivor Files. I'm Elizabeth Smart. We all know the elections are coming up next week. And if you've been following the campaign trail, you've heard about the controversial campaign ad in the Ohio governor's race. It really struck a nerve with me and a lot of other survivors, and I think it's important that we talk about it. Amy Acton is a doctor, the former director of Ohio's Department of Health, and now the Democratic nominee for governor. On the campaign trail, Amy has spoken openly about the alleged abuse and neglect she suffered growing up, including sexual abuse

0:49Elizabeth Smart by her stepfather. In a speech she delivered in Cleveland last weekend, she said, Hope is what got me through sexual abuse, through living in that tent, through cold nights, where all I could think about was how I was going to keep my little brother safe and warm. In 1978, when she was just 12 years old, her stepfather was charged with rape, but left the area before he could stand trial. And her mother left with him. Amy then moved back in with her biological father. Now, almost 50 years later, Amy Acton's own mother, who she says she hasn't seen since she was 12, has appeared in a political ad for Acton's opponent, Vivek Ramaswamy, accusing her daughter of lying about some of the events of her childhood,

1:35Elizabeth Smart including her claim that she lived in a tent. Amy's younger brother has come forward to defend her and court records from 1978 back up important parts of her story. I want to talk about what this story means for survivors, especially when the people who should be protecting them are the ones questioning their truth. Joining me today are two women who have experienced childhood sexual abuse themselves and have dedicated much of their lives to helping other survivors. First, Deondra Brown is a professional musician and survivor who joined her sisters and came forward about the sexual abuse they suffered at the hands of their father. Deondra has since become a powerful voice for survivors. She also ran for

2:18Elizabeth Smart the Utah State Senate in 2022. So she knows a thing or two about life on the campaign trail. Deondra, thank you so much for being here.

2:28Deondra Brown Thanks for having me.

2:30Elizabeth Smart And also joining us is Michelle Denault. Michelle was sexually abused by a teacher when she was 14. And today she works with schools and communities to help people recognize grooming and protect children from abuse. Michelle, I'm so glad you're here.

2:45Michelle Denault Thank you so much for having me.

2:48Elizabeth Smart D'Andrea, I want to start with you. What goes through your mind when you see that ad?

2:56Deondra Brown Well, it's tough to watch for sure, both as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse myself by my father. It's really difficult for me as a victim to see someone who is as close to you as your own mother, be involved and weaponized in such a way within the political sector. It brings up very deep rooted feelings about a lot of survivors not being believed and not being trusted and worried that when they come forward, that those in their closest circles may not support them. So I do worry that This could have unintended ramifications and prevent other victims and sexual assault survivors from coming forward. And we certainly would not want that.

3:43Elizabeth Smart No. Michelle, what do you think when you see that ad? And given your own experience where you were sexually abused at such a young age, I mean, what goes through your mind?

3:53Michelle Denault Betrayal. It's incredibly triggering to watch the ad and think of all of the people who were supposed to be protecting me. and that they were the people who were blaming me and shaming me and stealing my voice. I didn't even realize something had happened to me until I was in my 40s because I'd spent so much time hearing how this was my fault. I chose this. I wanted this. And when I see that ad, I think of how much we lack trust to begin with as survivors.

4:20Michelle Denault We already lack that trust. We already carry that shame. We already struggle forming normal, healthy relationships with people. And to think that your own mother would betray you in that way. It's so triggering to me to watch that and so disheartening to think that other survivors could be out there unable to find their voice and now they won't find their voice because of that fear of that betrayal.

4:42Elizabeth Smart I agree. And this is not a Republican issue. This is not a question of parties. When I watch this ad, I just feel this pit in my stomach. And I think, I mean, you both said it, it's betrayal. And I know... What I went through when I was rescued, and I say this all the time, I will forever be grateful that I didn't have to fight to be believed. I was always believed from the get-go. And honestly, I think that is one of the things that helped me move forward with my life most. So just seeing this ad, I think it really sets us back as survivors, which kind of brings me into my next question, which is back to you, Deondra Because you found the courage to come forward. You know, you joined your sisters. You came forward.

5:32Elizabeth Smart But your own mother's reaction. I mean, can you talk about what that was like? Oh, wow.

5:37Deondra Brown So, I mean, all power to Amy for coming forward as a child and disclosing the abuse. I know how difficult it was for me coming forward as an adult in my adult years and trying to process it all and having a little bit of high profile associated with our case, too. But when the person who abused you is your father or a family member, somebody close coming forward and telling the truth, it means that you could be making important decisions about relationships within your family. And there's so much guilt and such a weight placed on your shoulders of trying to navigate this. And there's so much pressure that can sometimes be too heavy and prevent victims from disclosing altogether. And in my particular case, my

6:28Deondra Brown mother stood by my father through the court case over 15 years ago now, and she continues to stand by him. And as you can imagine, it's been incredibly difficult for myself and my siblings to be able to navigate a life moving forward that we would not have ever imagined, you know, not having that close familial relationship with our mother.

6:54Deondra Brown But this is our reality. This is the reality that my siblings and I face every day, as do many victims. That's why these discussions matter. And sometimes we can't control how our family members are going to react or respond, and they're going to make their own decisions. But the way that Ms. Acton has navigated such a difficult and traumatic situation, both in her childhood and And now again, being re-victimized, her poise and how supportive she's been of other victims and survivors, I think is a testament to her character and who she is as a person.

7:31Elizabeth Smart I mean, I'm going to make a bold statement, but I really stand by it. I have said for a long time, I actually feel so lucky that I was kidnapped by a stranger because when I came home, I... came home to security. I came home to support. I came home to belief. And it allowed me to move forward with future relationships without having to battle the level of betrayal that I think, you know, people like yourself, D'Andra and Michelle have had to battle. I mean, having people turn against you, again, who should be the ones supporting you, fighting for you, loving you, is just incredible in the worst way, but incredible strength. in the positive way for you survivors who do overcome that and are able to move forward. Michelle, I'm actually curious from your

8:23Elizabeth Smart perspective and your experience. I mean, you're a nationally recognized childhood sexual assault expert. Have you seen parents turning against their children? Have you seen families splintering off?

8:38Michelle Denault It's actually very common. And I want to give you lenses of how the destruction of the family can happen that I've seen. They're very different, but it's all the same betrayal. I had a friend from my childhood who was sexually abused by her father. And her and her sister came forward when they were nine and told their mother.

8:54Michelle Denault And their mom took him to the church. And she took him down to the church, and they prayed for him. And they never called child services. The dad stayed with the mom. She stayed in that home environment until adulthood. And I read something that Amy had mentioned about seeing her mother for the last time in court. She tried to go over and kiss her on the cheek. That really made me think of my friend. My friend spent a lifetime trying to get her mother to love her and honor and validate what she had talked about. And the mom still continued to support the dad all throughout her life. My friend did not disconnect from the family.

9:33Michelle Denault She actually tried to stay connected, tried to reach out and get that love from her mom all those years. And then when her mom passed away, she actually even tried to care for her dad when he was sick. And that almost drove her to the point of being in a hospital. She still wanted to have that love and that affection from that parent, even though they had betrayed her greatly. And I've watched her suffer with that.

9:59Michelle Denault The other lens I have... is my mother as a survivor. She was sexually abused by a family member when she was eight. I did not know that until she said it in her sworn testimony in my case when she was 67 years old. She had never told a soul up until that moment, not even my dad, who she'd been married to for 55 years. And when we laid my 95-year-old grandma to rest two years ago, she still had no idea that my mom had been sexually abused.

10:26Michelle Denault They had kept that a secret, my mom and her sister, their entire life. Now they're in their 70s. And they said they didn't want to tell because they didn't want to hurt my grandmother. But this morning, I was talking to my mom, and I asked her if that's really true. And she said that my mom and her sister were terrified to tell what had happened to them because she believed her mom would pick her abuser over her. And that kept her silent for 60 years almost. So talk about a fracturing of a family. One of my favorite quotes is from The Keepers, a movie, The Keepers. And the quote is, he slowly and methodically destroyed my relationship with my parents. When you have abuse outside of the home, if it's not a family member, even if it's a

11:10Michelle Denault trusted adult, that person pulls you so far away from that family that it's very hard for you to maintain that relationship with the family. And it fractures that relationship a great deal. I don't think that my parents and I ever had a normal relationship after my abuse. And coming forward, right before my father passed away, he was so guilt-ridden for what he hadn't done that we just were never able to establish a family relationship with each other.

11:39Michelle Denault So from all lenses, abuse totally fractures the family in so many different ways, ways we don't even think of.

11:48Elizabeth Smart I mean, it's tragic. Something that I think is very telling is that Amy Acton's brother has actually stepped forward to defend her. And I think that support is so telling. And so kind of coming back to you, Deondra, and your siblings, I mean, you came forward together, but how much has that support meant to you?

12:10Deondra Brown Oh, it's been huge. My brothers were not aware that any abuse had occurred with myself or either of my two sisters from our father. But huge kudos to them the second we let them know. They stood by us 100%. They never asked for specifics or I never felt like they were questioning or that they were wondering if anything was accurate or not. They showed such love and support.

12:39Deondra Brown And you've got to realize my dad was their hero. He coached their baseball teams all growing up. He hung out with them and they appreciated that time with him. But when it came to the moment that counts, they stood by us as their sisters and they have never wavered from that. But I also don't take that for granted because I know how many victim survivors there really do lose all close relationships. And that can add just another layer of trauma and re-victimization when you feel like those people that you always believed would trust you and would be there for you have suddenly not just disappeared, but have chosen to support somebody else who has done such harm. So I really appreciate the fact that not

13:27Deondra Brown only do I have a that my brothers have been there 100%. They're the ones that I call when I'm having a difficult moment. They're the ones that will just be a listening ear to hear their perspective as what we would call secondary victims, people whose lives have forever been changed because they are loved ones of a survivor.

13:54Deondra Brown I mean, their perspective is powerful too. And to really be able to hear that victims need to feel that support from those closest to them that you do not want them to feel like they are left alone to maneuver the road ahead.

14:10Michelle Denault I just want to say that I was not prepared for what was going to happen when I spoke up. I was not prepared for the abandonment. I really wasn't. When I speak, I talk about loss, you know, so much loss, loss I was not prepared for. Family members, like I had family members that no longer speak to me.

14:29Michelle Denault And this wasn't even a family member that did this to me. This was a teacher. My church totally abandoned me. I wasn't prepared for that. It wasn't anybody in the church. I don't have any siblings. I'm an only child. But my closest friends, my ride-or-die best friend, actually said to me when I first spoke up, you know you weren't innocent in this. That's what she said to me. I was not prepared for that. And when I filed my lawsuit, all people kept saying to me was, well, we still have to live here. We're sorry, but we still have to live here. We just can't give you that support.

15:05Michelle Denault People said those kinds of things. I was 44 when I came forward and it happened when I was 14. But you have to remember everybody knew in the town. I mean, it was a very well-known thing. People talked about it all the time. It was actually made fun of. You know, they actually said my abuser should be put in the hall of fame at the school for having sex with that hot cheerleader for all those years. And when I was 44, there was an event that happened in my life. Somebody said something to me. They said that I needed to move away from my hometown and get myself right before I could come back and be a part of their community. And for some reason, that was the moment for me. In that moment, I said,

15:43Michelle Denault why do I keep getting blamed for what this guy did? I went home and looked at my ex-husband and I go, I was 14 years old. Like, why am I getting blamed for this grown man having an affair? And my ex-husband goes, excuse me? Like, he didn't realize that I was that young. And that was the moment. And I think it was just because I defended myself for the very first time to people instead of letting them make fun of it. People just absolutely abandoned me. And many of them supported him. I would see them online, you know, with a picture of him one day. I saw one of my friends online with a picture of my abuser after I disclosed saying, look who I saw today. And everybody was going, oh, give him a hug for us.

16:22Michelle Denault I was not prepared for that. I was desperately thinking that people would be like, oh, that was horrible. But that's just not the way it played out. I still lived there until I reported. I was very involved, had a lot of people in my life. I would say maybe five people are still involved in my life. It was a complete cleansing of everything I'd ever known my whole life. And the amount of loss, I just don't think you ever recover from that, nor do you ever form relationships like that again. I just, I struggled. to form any kind of solid relationship, especially with female friends.

16:59Elizabeth Smart What is crazy is how prevalent, how common, you know, sexual assault is, rape is. It's incredibly common and it's been around, what, forever?

17:10Michelle Denault Forever.

17:11Elizabeth Smart And yet people's, I feel like the vast majority of people's first reaction is to doubt the victim, is to doubt what they're saying is true. But yet at the same time, we know false reporting is, is so low. And in my experience, when they're lying, it usually comes to light. They're usually found out pretty quickly. It's crazy that we are so behind on the times, that it takes people so much before they believe it. Because I would almost be so bold as to say, what woman hasn't experienced a comment, something like a gesture made about themselves or their body where they were then made uncomfortable because of what was said or the innuendo made? What woman hasn't experienced that? And yet, why are we still

18:00Elizabeth Smart so slow to believe our victims who speak out?

18:03Michelle Denault I think it's pride. I think that nobody cares that much about a predator, but they don't like to think they've got it wrong. They don't like to think they were duped too. I mean, Bill Cosby, how many people wanted to believe that about Bill Cosby? They defended Bill Cosby for decades and you don't want to believe the person you believed in did that. I think it's our pride.

18:25Michelle Denault And I also think it's a lot of other people's trauma. They're angry, they're unhealed, and it's easier for them to blame other people than it is to touch their own trauma.

18:33Deondra Brown Well, and I think the fact that sexual abuse, sexual assault has stayed secret and hidden for so long has continued to really brew seeds of doubts or fears around discussing these things. And I think that's when some of these high-profile cases come up And as traumatic and terrible as they are to hear, to know they're out there, it really does help to prompt these important discussions. It helps others to be like, hey, I'm not alone in this.

19:02Deondra Brown As you mentioned, Elizabeth, with the Cornell 7, how many of us saw women disclosing left and right and realizing how substantial the issue is? And that's when things start to change, when we start to notice that we're not alone in this and we're not okay with it. And that this next generation, we're going to do our darndest to make sure that we're moving the needle forward and that we're not okay with those discussions being shoved in a back closet somewhere.

19:32Elizabeth Smart Well, and again, this isn't like a Democratic versus Republican issue. This is like- Not at all. This is a human issue. This is a humanity issue. It should transcend all of that.

19:43Michelle Denault But we just can't see the issue of child sex abuse instead of making it a political thing or an agenda. It's the issue of protecting our children from people who are preying on them and protecting their right to be able to heal in the space they want to heal in, the way they want to heal in. I've seen it said in many comments that she shouldn't have talked about her own abuse. She shouldn't have said what happened to her if she didn't want it to be used against her.

20:09Michelle Denault So We're not supposed to be able to talk about our abuse to help other people because it can be used against us. Here, we're trying to stop this from happening to other children. That's what we're doing when she was out there saying, I want survivors to know, please find somebody you think you can trust. They're weaponizing that against her, saying that she should have never done that because she gave them permission to use that. No, she was giving survivors permission to use their voices. She wasn't giving someone else permission to harm her again. Those are two entirely different things.

20:41Elizabeth Smart Yeah.

20:41Deondra Brown Our trauma should never be political fodder.

20:44Michelle Denault That is for sure.

20:46Elizabeth Smart Well, okay. That brings me to my next question. So Vice President J.D. Vance came out and said politics is a tough business about the ad. So, Deondra, you ran for public office. Having been a candidate yourself, where do you think the line should be drawn? Is there a line?

21:10Deondra Brown I am troubled by where is our humanity? Where is our respect for each other? When it comes to political campaigns, I think we all understand the things that are on the table, right? Your financial situation is oftentimes on that table. There are certain decisions that you've made in terms of your career, and maybe some of your personal choices are going to come into play, unfortunately. But I do feel that there need to be lines. Just like we don't go after a political candidate's child or a president's children.

21:48Deondra Brown There are certain things that we just know in our gut are off limits. And I really am concerned moving forward that this maybe has wide opened that door where others will think that they can stoop that low. But I believe we are better than that. And I believe that as humanity grows, we can still carry on and have those boundaries with each other, even in a very hard-fought campaign.

22:15Michelle Denault Think about what you just said about a child. She was a child when this happened. She was a child. There is a child in her that was wounded by somebody she was supposed to trust the most. And the other person who was supposed to be protecting her stayed with that person instead of supporting her. That child is still inside Amy Acton. That's who you're hurting. You're hurting that child. And I don't think people understand that. You're not going after an adult. That's why there has to be a line here. You are going after that person who was wounded in an act that should have never happened to them by somebody they were supposed to trust the most.

22:53Elizabeth Smart Ms. Acton said she hasn't had further communication with her mother since she was 12. It's been 50 years. So with her mother calling her a liar... but not specifically saying about sexual abuse. Does that do anything to you?

23:09Michelle Denault Absolutely. I mean, it calls your character into question. It calls the very fundamentals of who you are into question. And to plant seeds of doubts about whether people can trust you is something I will never be okay with.

23:25 I can.

23:25Deondra Brown I can imagine myself in that situation if it had occurred and to be blindsided like that, because you do think that's probably off limits, even if it is public record that you've gone through these things. It's a huge betrayal to have somebody in your close-knit family, even if you haven't seen them for 50 years, to reopen those wounds and air them out for everybody across the world to see. I have such respect for Ms. Acton and how she's handled herself. I think we all as survivors get used to putting up that facade, right? But I can guarantee you, even under that poised, well-spoken facade, for lack of a better word, that she's forced to show right now, she is like the rest of us. She's traumatized.

24:11Deondra Brown She is probably having a sleepless night. She's wondering if she can trust the people in her closest circles. And she's mourning the fact that these survivors Ugly details from her past are out there for everyone to dissect. And yet, what is she doing? She's picking herself back up. She's on the campaign trail. She's changing lives. She's making other victims feel supported. And quite honestly, I think she's going to continue to be an incredible candidate. an incredible representative for abuse survivors everywhere. And I think regardless of what happens with this race, there are big things in store for this woman. And I'm excited to see where she goes.

24:53Michelle Denault The self-doubt thing. Thank you so much for bringing that up because that is such an incredibly great point. If you've ever spoken publicly about your story, every time I get up on the stage, I am thinking about what every person in the audience is thinking about me in that moment. And when I leave, I wonder what everybody in that audience is thinking about me when I leave the room. You have that self-doubt after being traumatized like that.

25:15Michelle Denault It's just something that sticks with you. And then when people say things like that or do things like that, you even begin to question yourself. In my deposition, I was questioned about the college I applied to. And they showed me an email showing that I'd not applied to that college, which later I was able to show that I had. But I went home that night. And I started to doubt myself. Did I really not do that?

25:37Michelle Denault I mean, I laid there for the longest time. Am I misremembering? Did I make that up in my mind? You as a survivor can start to question your own ability to understand what's happening when people do what was done to this woman, this saying she's a liar. She's out there doing what she needs to do, but inside she still is that survivor who has had to be traumatized by this. And listen to people plant those tiny seeds of self-doubt into every point of her being.

26:07Elizabeth Smart Michelle, you've spent so much of your time educating people on the signs of abuse. What are some things that people can pay attention to that might help them recognize a situation that's happening behind closed doors?

26:24Michelle Denault I think for decades, we've told people what abuse looks like, and it's always the same. It's always fear-based. The child will be afraid. The child will withdraw. You'll see depression, poor hygiene. They won't be getting good grades. But those are the signs of child abuse that we've always heard about, fear-based things. But not all kids are afraid of their abusers.

26:43Michelle Denault They're just not. Or sometimes they've been taught that what's happening to them is love, like this is what they're supposed to do. I think that there's a bigger picture that we're missing and we have been missing in Because I don't think that we want to talk about the fact that kids can love their abusers. Even in the family situation, like I said, my girlfriend still wanted to love her dad. That's a very normal situation. That's hard for us to grasp if we've not been in the center of that kind of abuse. I loved my abuser.

27:13Michelle Denault I did. I thought this was a love relationship. So I tell people, you're not always looking for those traditional signs. Yes, you may have a child that's withdrawing. You may have a child who's had great grades and now they're having poor grades. You may have a child who's depressed, suicidal, not hanging out with their friends anymore. But you may also have an overachiever. You may have the kid who's totally engaging.

27:34Michelle Denault When we talk about sports, churches, schools, I always tell people, if you have a kid that's being abused in a school, they're showing up for school every day. They want to be with that teacher. They're showing up at Wednesday night Bible study. They're showing up for that private hitting lesson. They're not withdrawing like people think they are. They're not afraid of that abuser. Look for the kid who did have good hygiene and now all of a sudden has poor hygiene. I used to wear blue jeans, T-shirts, and those horrible kids' tennis shoes. Does anybody remember those from the 80s? Yes, with no socks. That's what I wore when I was a freshman. And after grooming started, it was miniskirts, high heels, makeup. I mean, I came to

28:12Michelle Denault school dressed up every day. Look for the kid whose personality is changing, and it doesn't have to be for the worse. It could be for the better. Look for the kid who's getting great grades, the kid who's engaging. The kiddie was spending a lot of time around an adult and getting extra attention from that adult. And also look for the kid who will protect that person at all costs. Because a lot of kids who are abused will protect their abuser at all costs. And I think that's a conversation that we've not been willing to have.

28:45Elizabeth Smart So really, I mean, not really, not to boil it down, but pay attention. Pay attention.

28:50Michelle Denault Pay attention to your kids. And I don't mean that in a flippant way, pay attention to your kids. Parents get blamed a lot for missing this when it's outside the home. But let's remember, parents aren't always watching the abuse when it's outside the home. We as a community need to collectively come together and pay attention to children, all children. And we often look at kids and say, oh, they're just a drama queen or, oh, they're a problem child. Well, that could be a sign of abuse.

29:20Elizabeth Smart Okay. For both of you. What would you say to survivors who are watching Ms. Acton's story play out and who are sitting there wondering, is it safe for me to share my story?

29:33Deondra Brown This is a question that I have contemplated as I've thought through what would I have done if a story like this had been public when I was disclosing, even as an adult, about my childhood experience. All survivors want to tell others out there that there is a community of us that will support you. Take those needed steps for yourself And if that means coming forward and disclosing your abuse to law enforcement and moving forward, then great if that's what you're comfortable doing. But if it also means privately working through with a therapist and with your closest family members, that is also super powerful for you because sometimes we have to make sure that we take care of our own personal well-being first as survivors.

30:25Deondra Brown But I would say Don't put pressure on yourself to make this decision today or tomorrow. Sit with it. Make sure that you feel comfortable enough in yourself and that you have that trusted circle of people that you can fall back on. They don't have to be blood related. They can be others. They can be community advocates. I mean, Elizabeth is a dear friend of mine that I know I've come to on occasion. Like there are people in your circles that you can turn to and you want to make sure that you Have that support as much as possible as you go through things.

31:00Michelle Denault I give survivors a chance to stand up when I speak and be recognized if they'd like to. I give them that opportunity. And I say, there's no pressure. You don't have to. But if you're a survivor, I'd love to give you a hug. And I tell people, this is your story. It's in your time. You're in the driver's seat now. It doesn't feel like that, but you are.

31:20Michelle Denault You get to make the choice of when you tell and who you tell. And I want people to understand that finding those circles is what's most important. Finding those safe spaces. I had somebody reach out to me last time and this is all they said. I wasn't able to stand because I haven't survived this yet. That was what they said. But they felt safe enough to text me and find that safe space with just the two of us. Like, that's okay. We'll talk through it. If you do not feel like you have a support system surrounding you, find the support system through survivors. That is who I lean on. On my worst days, those are the phone calls I make. Other survivors. Because I know that they are going to be there with intention, with validation,

32:05Michelle Denault and with nothing but love and respect. There's going to be no feelings of shame. Find your circle. Find your survivor tribe. Find the space where you feel safe before you disclose.

32:16Elizabeth Smart I couldn't agree more with both of you. I couldn't have been rescued day one and day two, turned around and gone out and started speaking about it. I mean, for me personally, I really didn't start speaking openly. I mean, I dipped my toes occasionally into advocacy here and there. I mean, the Amber Alert, that and Walsh Safety and Protection Act. For the most part, I didn't talk about my story until after my case was adjudicated, which was the better part of a decade. So, you know, I had time to heal or begin the healing process. I had time to try to make peace with the fact that there was no going back to the old normal.

32:56Elizabeth Smart There was just a new normal. I had time to kind of pick up the pieces of my life together and put them back together. So I feel like for me, if there was something I was going to tell survivors, I'd want them to know that what happened to them wasn't their fault. I'd want them to know that this one event doesn't have to define who you are. It doesn't have to ruin the rest of your life. It certainly affects us, but it doesn't have to prevent you from still embracing life moving forward. And I would encourage them to find happiness, as trite as that may sound.

33:35Elizabeth Smart For as bad as life can be, I think it's also supposed to be happy. Pursue it. So I think there is every reason to hope for a better future. I think we've got A long ways to go. But we're having the conversations.

33:51Michelle Denault But we're having the conversation. Exactly.

33:53Deondra Brown Exactly. We're sorry that any of us have to be talking about such traumatic things. But this is the time in history, I think, where we're finally going to say no more. And we're going to come together. And we're going to really start to see a difference. Because people are not just going to stand by idly anymore. And thanks to people like Elizabeth who have paved the way for the rest of us.

34:19Michelle Denault I always tell my boys, it's one of my favorite quotes because my boys went through my litigation with me and all of me coming out with my trauma. They were teenagers. It was rough for them, but they are very huge advocates. And one of the quotes we say all the time is, just because it's been done doesn't mean it should be done. Just because there's been silence doesn't mean that's how we do this anymore. And I think one of the things I'm most grateful for is that I've raised boys that will defend women in these situations and men in these situations on any given day and stand up against this. And they will teach their children that.

34:52Elizabeth Smart Wow, we definitely need that more now than ever. D'Andrea and Michelle, thank you so much for everything that you've said today. What you've contributed to this conversation I think is so meaningful and impactful to And it reminds people how we should be responding to survivors and their faith and the belief that we should be giving them. And so I just hope that anyone who's listening, who's been through something similar, knows they're not alone. We've got another really interesting episode coming on Monday. So let's take a quick listen. You heard their remarkable stories of survival.

35:33 And I felt the cold steel barrel of a gun to my left temple.

35:36Elizabeth Smart You sent us the questions that you couldn't stop thinking about. Now, they're answering those questions. Lisa May, Eduardo Valseca, and Elisa Mathewson, three extraordinary survivors. Join me to answer the questions that stayed with you. Deandra Brown is a pianist with the group The Five Browns and is also the prevention and policy advocate for Prevent Child Abuse Utah. Michelle Denault is an advocate, educator, and the founder of Voices Carry. She is also a safe and sound school speaker, helping both adults and students recognize and respond to the subtle signs of grooming behavior. Thank you for listening to The Survivor Files.

36:21Elizabeth Smart New episodes every Monday. Listen, subscribe, share, and don't forget to set up automatic downloads. You can also follow us at the Survivor Files pod on Instagram.