An Unlikely Affair: The Parts We Can't Erase

So Lala and I met like maybe, I don't know, God, 10 years ago.

Oh my God.

I don't even think I've actually said the number. I was married for eight years and she was the mistress.

I was the wife. I did not know this.

Yeah.

I would remember that.

Yeah.

I would definitely remember that. And then eventually she has a, she has a daughter, Ocean, who's five with my ex-husband. And then I have two kids. And so we're one happy blended family.

Family my second baby um i conceived via sperm donor so she's just mine wow and she looks oddly like amber which is great i love it.

She's my child full circle moment yeah totally solidify the extended family.

So that's the background of an unlikely affair hi.

Amber hi lola welcome to an unlikely affair Dr.

Hillary Goldshear.

Welcome to An Unlikely Affair.

Thank you. Thank you guys for having me.

We're so excited to have you. So excited.

So I did a lot of therapy starting like after I had my first baby. I remember my OBGYN, Dr. Katz said, you know, I was like, I'm not feeling great. Like he's like, have you ever done therapy?

I'm like, no. He's like, okay, call this woman. Was this postpartum?

Yeah.

Okay. I had a little postpartum. And so I did therapy for like 10 years. And then finally, like after my divorce, I was like, no more therapy. I cannot do therapy anymore. It was just became like, I felt like therapy didn't save my marriage. And I think that that's a lot of probably a misconception that a lot of people have. Like I need a therapist to fix this problem. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about like the purpose of therapy, how you define therapy for people.

Yes.

But it's such a good question as it relates to couples work, because one of my core conceptualizations as a couples therapist is the notion that my goal is not necessarily to keep a family together, sadly, painfully worthy of much grief. But my goal is to help the family system assess whether or not it's emotionally safe to stay together and guide them. one way or the other. Of course, it is not my opinion. It is my assessment after working together with a family and understanding all the dynamics.

And my goal is to hopefully guide the family system to decide themselves and either keep them together with peace, love, and health, or help them separate with peace, love, and health. And grief and support and guidance. And so I think it is a misperception that therapy is somehow like failing if it doesn't keep you together. But the best couples therapist helps a family come apart.

Wow.

See, I wish someone would have explained that to me in my 20s and who knew if I would have like understand it differently. But having that little disclosure before you even enter into therapy and say, listen, This is the purpose because I feel like a lot of times you just walk in and they're like, tell me what's going on. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

And then they dive in.

But having a full understanding of the purpose of sitting down and paying someone because let's be honest, therapy is fucking expensive, especially in Los Angeles and all these bigger cities.

A lot of insurance companies.

Don't pay for it or a lot of therapists don't accept insurance because it's a lot of money fighting getting the money and then you get a super bill it's the whole thing so I feel like there has to be a very it has to be purposeful work.

When you go into therapy having a paradigm helps ground everyone and having a version of an objective I mean it's a fine line we walk as therapists we want the space to be open and free and allow for safe feelings to be expressed but it is okay to want to identify an objective and have ideas about what you want to get out of it and talk about it and self-advocate even to say like, I'm confused about what we're doing here or what our goal is or where we're headed, or it feels like we keep talking about the same things. All of those things are clinical material for the therapist to work with, but also part of self-advocacy.

Right.

It, it, Just because you're in therapy doesn't mean that it's working perfectly and is the right fit. It is okay to co-create the right environment for yourself.

You want a therapist to really push you and challenge the way you're thinking. So you wouldn't necessarily want that. Well, maybe you would on a date, but I want someone to kind of kick my ass in therapy. I'm not coming here to get a nod and saying, yes, Amber, I'm so sorry.

That's the way you feel.

And yes, your feelings are validated. It's like, okay, well, let's put yourself in the other person's... other person's position, or kind of look at the situation without the emotions of it too.

If that's your wish is to have someone, a therapist that's active, ask about that. How active are you? How much do you get into solution-focused discussions?

I also want a therapist to say, are you exercising? Are you taking care of yourself?

Are you seeing your girlfriends?

I want.

Full spectrum of a lifestyle shift if I'm struggling with one area because it's not, I mean, I'm sober and I want someone to say, okay, well, are you working your program? Are you talking to your sponsor? Are you going to the gym? Are you going, are you meditating? Like that, I think that approach also for me is way more attractive.

Here's the thing.

When, when you think about therapy, your therapist is not emotionally charged, right? Like it's so easy to not saying you.

Guys are giving advice.

You, you know, have a background in medicine, extremely brilliant, but if you, those people that say, you know, how are you supposed to give me good advice? If like, I'm here for my marriage, but you're divorced going through this, that, and the other, it's like life still happens. And I think that's the stigma behind therapy is therapists are looked at as these people who have to have it all together.

And they're sitting down with you to dig into just your childhood.

And I think that scares people. It scares me, you know?

Cause I'm like, I don't, I don't know that, Something that happened to me when I was five being bullied in the schoolyard. I just don't know how that carries into my life now. And I think a lot of people think that way.

You know?

I love you. No, but I.

You really don't think that that affected you?

I think it affected me. I think there's nothing I can do about it and we got to move on. Well, yeah, there's also nothing I can do. Right, right, right.

But you just have the... Not that I'm a therapist, but I'm saying there's just like an awareness.

Right?

Yeah.

What do you mean?

Just, like, an.

Awareness of, like, okay, this happened to me when I was in elementary school, whatever, I got pushed down or thrown into the fucking trash, whatever it is.

That shapes you.

Like, you're a young child. Like, can you imagine, like, something like that happening to Ocean? And... And Ocean's saying, oh, it didn't bother me. I don't think you as a mother would say, like, no, honey. Like, I believe that you would say, let's talk about it.

I'm not saying that that doesn't shape who someone is.

I'm saying that people who feel....

A little bit skeptical of therapy from what I have gathered is that they wonder, why would I sit in a room if someone wants to go all the way back to my childhood when I need coping mechanisms for the now?

Does that, am I making sense?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

You know, so like how, how would you, how would you explain to somebody, we won't even go into like my trauma with this one specific therapist where I have not seen a therapist since because I have tremendous trust.

Issues with everybody on the planet. But like, how do you soften someone up to the idea of therapy?

Such good questions. And I think you're right that many people have the perception that therapy is digging up old childhood trauma, which I'm not here to say it doesn't include that, which we'll talk about in a moment. But the idea of like, I don't want to do that. That feels overwhelming and intimidating and makes me want to shut down. And furthermore, is that really going to help me today? And those are good questions. They're right questions.

It's what intersects with what I was talking about earlier. From my perspective, my theoretical orientation, my approach seeks to pair those things together. I don't think you can do one without the other, without having... sustained results. You can get decent results in my view, looking at kind of day-to-day what's happening. What happens in early childhood impacts our mapping, our early mapping of how we view ourselves and how we move through the world. And so if we don't unpack that and first create sacred space for the pain of that, and then come to understand how it impacts how we view ourselves and how we move through the world and We can't really ever get under the hood enough to shift the early mapping to something more expansive

so that we can be consciously and unconsciously aware of how things affect us and make different choices in the moment. Right.

I always use the expression like I need to deprogram myself in this area because the programming is a little off or a little crooked. And then I have to reprogram myself to what the right solution is or the right way to move through the world.

It's exactly what I'm talking about, right? I mean, it's the intersection of both of those things. But I really like your question about like, how do you soften someone up? Because I think there are many people who are like, I'm not doing that.

And I also think it's a generational thing. A hundred percent. Like, I feel like my mom is like, why?

And then I'll talk to my friends and my friends will be like, oh my God, my mom is like questioning me on why I'm going to therapy.

I want to make it very, very clear.

I have such a deep appreciation for for therapists and again it it it goes back to this one specific incident where I I now have to find someone I really really trust you know because even Amber has said like we need therapy when.

She says we she means me which I'm.

No I need therapy too I'm not just put you in that bucket but I.

I think a generational thing as well where it's like A lot of people who are my mom's age and maybe a bit older, it's like, we don't talk about our feelings.

That shit goes under the rug. Like everything's fine.

You know? Absolutely.

I think they're the ones that need the most therapy.

That was the generational edict is that you don't talk about family business or tricky emotions. And in fact, it's not just neutral that if you did, that was a sign of weakness or conflict or trouble that was embarrassing or shameful. And so- it is not just neutral. It's the opposite that you shouldn't and that you should have a version of shame if you do. And so, I mean, that is a tough dynamic and sort of notion to break, but I have two thoughts. I mean, one, when it's kind of a generational issue, my discussion is a recommendation of attempting to avail oneself of like the experience. Like you can go to therapy and you don't have to, you can commit to 50 minutes and that's it.

Right.

You don't have to, you don't have to draw a contract. You don't like it. You don't have to return. Right.

So I had my brain scanned. Dr. Amon's been my psychiatrist for many years now. But one of the things that he said in my brain scan is like, you have like the, I think he calls it the ring of fire, but PTSD from just not even trauma in my early childhood, more in my twenties, the same as a veteran would coming back from war. And I, I truly, and we were having this conversation on the way home. I, there's some things that happen to you in life that I just don't, think you could ever truly get over, get over or heal from. So then it becomes like just managing the day to day.

It's kind of like grief, right?

They say like, okay, you can never just get over a person that passes away. It's like the, you have to go through the grieving process.

And I.

Just want to, I'm so curious because I'm so conflicted of like, I feel at times. So like, I thought I had enough therapy and talked about it over and over. And like, gotten over certain situations that happened. But then this morning I'm like, no, I don't think that shit's ever going to go away. I think it's so ingrained in my DNA. It's changed me at a cellular level that I'm, I will never be the same person.

It is.

I'm glad we're talking about this because I think there's a inherent setup that you're either better or not. And then you feel like pass, fail, good, bad. And what you're saying is correct. When we go through trauma and It does change our system and how our internal mapping occurs and how we move through the world. But it's not about that we can't get better as we relate to the trauma. It's about how we interact with it.

And so the duration and intensity of the pain associated with it can greatly shift. I see you have emotion coming up.

I don't know why. I'm so sorry.

No.

It's so crazy. What's coming up?

I'd like to think that like, oh god I'd like to think that like I completely can just like erase some of the things that I've gone through in my life but now it's just like it's actually grieving that like I'm gonna it's like my sobriety it's like a daily practice right and it's like I want to be over and be able to move on and like enter relationships and marriage and like friendships and partnerships but like I just think as I've gotten older and I've been like, you know.

I've had experience of life.

Like I.

Don't want to say it hasn't fucked me up, but it's really changed me. And I actually miss the old version of myself. That's just kind of naive moving through the world. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like I know too much now.

I know too much.

I've seen evil. I've seen darkness. I've seen joy and I've experienced it. But like, that's a hard look at me i'm a fucking mess i think i.

Need therapy this is.

My word for what we're talking about right now is integration it is the notion of integration is one of the greatest psychological gifts that i can offer which is that the idea that who you were before all this trauma that naive joyful person is still there and alongside it is the person that's been through all the things that you've been through.

Yeah, it's like a constant battle, I feel like, right?

Yeah.

Like you want to give yourself to love. Yeah. And then you're like, oh shit, you know, like the ball can drop or like I could get hurt.

You know what I mean?

It's like.

One of my therapeutic goals often, not always, but often is integration. How do I integrate the hurt parts of myself, the scared parts of myself, the parts that don't trust, the parts that are scared with the parts of me that are naturally and dispositionally like joyful and open and loving.

Yeah.

And I know that sounds like a lovely... Notion, right? But how you get there takes a lot of heavy lifting, emotional heavy lifting. But one of the key ways is not exiling the parts of you that are hurt and scared, but more deeply exploring them and inviting them in. And so we can talk to those parts of us. We can narrate to those parts of us instead of being in the feeling of it or on the outside of it, talking about it. Feeling it, observing it, rather than being in the emotion or unaware of the emotion.

Right. I just keep, like, I'll say to myself, like, feelings aren't permanent. And, like, just stay curious.

Do you feel like you've been able to work through everything?

Because if you really think about it, like, she and I are polar opposites.

Are we, though?

Yes.

When it comes to this.

So she and I have the same person who caused the same trauma, right?

And....

Yes. Our situation was very nuanced. So we can say like she was the wife, I was the mistress, but I was very unaware that I was wearing that. If that means like he had portrayed that they were like going through a separation and I thought she was insane. Right. I was very much in my alcoholism and I've been sober for eight years next month.

So we're both sober as well.

And that takes a lot of just like hard work and no numbing and facing our feelings. Amber has been able to go and date. And I mean, she bags them like these men are, you know, like, and I, and I, this is not an insult, but not, but it's not an insult. She, um, welcomes relationships rather quickly. Whereas I have not been on a date or invited a man in on that level in.

Probably five and a half years.

Yeah, we are polar opposites when it comes to that. Like, I still want to believe in love. And I still go through the motions of it, right?

I wasn't meaning that as a bad thing.

No, no, no.

I fully, like, I know. We really talk about our feelings a lot. We're each other's therapists. Not exactly healthy, but we pretend. Not productive. Maybe that's what we need. We need a couple therapies.

Like.

I watch her and.

I'm like, I feel like maybe you need to pump the brakes and, like, figure out what you want instead of, like, inviting men in.

But I know what I want. That's why I'm going after it. There's a difference. I know what I want. But I don't think you do because we talked on the way. Are you kidding me? I fucking know what I want. I want to find my person. But then we keep attracting the same kind of guy. So if we keep attracting the same kind of guy. Okay, first of all, you said. I feel like I'm offending.

No, you're not. I promise you, you're not offending me. I would tell you. You said, Amber, you're not allowed to date anyone in our industry anymore.

And I said, okay, fine. I won't date anyone.

In our industry because we walk into a room and I can't be like, oh, I slept with that guy and that guy. Like, that's not, that doesn't happen.

Right.

I have put myself out there where I'm dating. I dated some guy in fucking Montana who ended up cheating on me.

I know, but then. That was a prime example.

I dated a guy from fucking Cincinnati.

Ohio that did flooring.

I put myself out there in different scenarios with different guys. It just so happens that I feel like.

They're just not my people. Amber cheated on me. Cincinnati guy was a dud. I think she and I need to find the happy medium. Because she will go out and Montana man cheats. And within two, three weeks, we've got a new one who's in the mix. Whereas I had a guy who I met one time. One time in person. He came for three days. We only FaceTimed.

It threw me for such a tailspin that I could go another five years without talking to anybody.

That is also the extreme opposite that's what i mean okay.

So how do we find the balance that's what i'm saying this is not me insulting you i'm saying the both of.

Us we gotta work together to come to like pump the brakes.

And i need to speed it up.

So I'm certainly not suggesting that therapy is the only answer to the dilemmas that you're putting forth. But what I am going to say is this, and I really mean this, is that you guys are very similar. I imagine this is my hypothesis based on like little information, but similar in the sense that there's a lot of unexplored material going on. I imagine that however you're moving through your relationship world is There's some stuff going on related to the mutual trauma that you've experienced. And who knows if they're dotted lines back to your childhood, perhaps.

But it is informing.

Did you say dad?

Dotted lines related to your childhood, perhaps, I said. But it is informing how you're moving through your relationship world and how you're responding, both in this. Brief stint with this person and to these relationships that are more back to back. So I don't have a comment as to whether or not like one style is better than the other. I'd be more concerned about what's going on underneath that is informing how you're moving through those paradigms right now. And I would guess there's just unexplored material. There's fear and hurt and pain that maybe gets you to rush or to want to fill that gap.

And to me, I'm never that concerned about like, oh, you should wait. six weeks instead of three. Like, I don't, I don't, it doesn't matter to me. I'm just more concerned about, I've.

Gotten so good at like either breaking up or being dumped where I'm like, okay, you have four days to go.

Cause no, you are great.

My relationships are not months on end. They're like six weeks, three weeks, two months. And then I'm like, I'm fucking good.

I'm going to get back on the horse and I'm going to keep riding.

What I would want to know much more about is how you're talking to yourselves before, during, and after. What are the internal dialogues that you're having with yourself about yourself? How are you feeling about yourself? How are you feeling about putting yourself out there? How are you feeling about...

showing up with someone in an intimate fashion, emotionally, physically.

I don't even know what that's like to show up with someone.

Cause even with our ex, like he would come around, but I have become, and this is also what scares me is I just turned 36 and I've got two babies on my own, you know, sole provider of the household. And I feel like I have become so hyper independent that when I think.

About a guy, it makes me I like the idea.

Of a long distance because I know that you will not interfere with my daily routine. I don't want to have to worry about entertaining you. I don't want to worry about how you're feeling. Seeing you once a month sounds great. I get to go to bed by myself. And that could be out of fear. It very well could be out of fear of it not working out and me being in a tailspin. But there are parts of me where I had a guy for the first time.

I've been in my house for a couple years now, and I had a guy who I've known since the age of 21. I felt okay enough to have him come over because, again, this is where my kids lay their heads down to sleep.

We're not just having men come over.

Yeah.

But he stayed until like 11 a.m. the next day.

And I started spiraling. I'm like, my bed is usually made at this point. I will have had my, you know, shower, my coffee in this position. And you're throwing off my vibe, bro. I'm going to need you to get the fuck out.

And I was like, I could not do this every day. Oh, my God. So— That's a whole can of worms. Maybe I should call you.

No, but I have a number of things to say, if you don't mind. Which is, no, I mean, I think it's an intersection of truths, right? There's a part of a coping mechanism that you've curated that is super beneficial. You're highly independent. It sounds like you're... a breadwinner, and you can run your life by yourself. Those are incredible qualities.

And so that piece, the part of you that is wanting to maintain that and not have that interrupted, we want to keep. That's amazing and an incredible example to your kids, et cetera. Amazing. And alongside that, I imagine, is the part of you that is afraid of getting hurt again. How could that not be true? I mean, based on the little you've shared with me so far, it sounds like you guys have had this mutually tangential trauma related to the same person and a lack of trust and children were involved. That is about as big as it gets in the realm of romantic relationships.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, could you be more vulnerable with a male with children?

Yeah.

Right.

Could you be more vulnerable? And so I can't imagine that part of what you've cobbled together is also to protect yourself. And so the way I like to think about it and talk about it is not like we have to do one extreme or the other. You have to like cut yourself wide open and bleed and make yourself completely available, but rather explore like what parts are we keeping? These parts of you that are so strong and independent, amazing. Yes, yes, yes. And then what parts of you do we want to explore that potentially can slowly open up over time if we come to understand what the fears are underneath?

Yeah.

If we could just take half of you and half of me and put it together, we would be one fucking unstoppable person.

By the way, though, if I could be sexual with a woman, I would marry you tomorrow.

You're like my dream woman.

Really?

Yeah, totally. You're hot.

I love you.

You're nice. You're good with my kids. They look like you. I'm all in, babe. But I think you're obviously spot on.

And it's wild because when I did deal with this guy for like a very brief moment, and now we know God placed him there to test me, I failed.

Another one of him will appear.

And if I don't pass the fucking test, I'm going to have to keep doing this. But it It made me excited because for so long I told myself I didn't want or need partnership. And granted, I was living a pretty peaceful life. All kind of awesome to be like, men are only good for one thing. This guy comes in and shows me and makes me did not show me makes me feel This way that I was like.

Oh my God, I would move him in tomorrow. I would like, I could do this. Like I can go there.

And that's what freaks me out is I don't know how to find the gray. I can either be completely by myself and hyper-independent Or meet someone and I'm like, let's get married.

Have babies. Like I'm either I'm getting a sperm donor for every child or I'm walking you down and handcuffing you to the bed.

You're never leaving. And I would say those tendencies towards extreme belie anxiety because the anxiety shows up the most in the gray because then we have to. be present and vulnerable and self-advocate and endure like the ups and the downs and saying the things and accepting the things, right? The gray is like, I'm going to go slow. I'm going to tolerate putting myself out there slowly. I'm going to see how it feels to be in this man's presence.

I'm going to express my needs in a way I haven't done so before. I'm going to figure out a way to cope with the anxiety when he doesn't show up exactly as I want. I'm going to conflict manage in a different way.

And this is where Alexa Pro comes in.

I'm serious.

I am a big advocate.

I am a big, big advocate. It does.

It does.

I'm with you. It's the way you said it. I'm laughing.

Yes.

I'm any sort of SSRI.

Because when you have high, high anxiety.

No. First of all, you're allowed to be on an SSRI.

I'm totally kidding. I'm lightening the mood. I'm lightening the mood. I feel like I'm drowning. I'm very offended.

No, it's. When you have, it's like what we're talking about, like the whole picture. But when you have crippling anxiety and then you put a little SSRI or something to help relieve, it is amazing.

Really?

I think maybe I need that.

I think you need something for like the racing.

I think I need a lot.

No, you don't need a lot. You don't need a lot.

Like even the smallest, even for three months to see the difference. I know this is completely off topic, but it stops the racing thoughts. and that helps you, it could save a marriage. I'm sure you've seen it. People that go on, you know, a medication when someone's either bipolar or OCD and it kind of just like.

Yeah, it's, it's not off topic. And these are, are my opinions and clinical experiences with psychotropic medications, which is, this is how I like to think of it. And for those who are listening, who, um, would never avail themselves of that option, that's okay too. Yeah, that's totally fine. So this isn't a comment on that. I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'll speak from mine in terms of, from a clinical perspective, is that when you see someone, for example, that has intense anxiety and they are intelligent and motivated and emotionally present, but can't get a different result, still have crippling anxiety, for example, we start to, we clinicians start to think about like, oh, There's something else

going on here because we should be able to be a little bit better when we put our time and effort and focus on self-care. And if that isn't happening, I start to think about, huh, I wonder if there's something chemical going on here.

Okay.

Right. And so in my view, when we're talking about a scenario like yours, SSRIs in that scenario can help us access skills that we can't otherwise access when we aren't on the medication.

Because your brain goes from like back here to the frontal cortex and like it doesn't have time to calm down and make like to pause.

Right.

It helps you pause.

Yes. When I think about going on a date, I had a guy ask me out and I literally sat there and most people would be like, oh my gosh, this is so cute.

I get to go out to dinner.

My whole thing is, what will I wear? Then if I show up, what if he's late? What if people are staring at me? What if we'd have nothing to talk? Like I start going down this rabbit hole and by the time I have exhausted myself, I'm like, I'm not going. I'm getting in bed and I'm watching Friends. And I'm sticking to my nighttime routine because that makes me happy.

So maybe that would take the edge off. I've been trying to do things that make me very uncomfortable. Like really push me out of my comfort zone. And it's great, but the anxiety is so debilitating before I actually go to do it that I'm exhausted and drained. And then I get there and it's fabulous and I have a great time. But when I get home, I'm like, oh, I did it, but I'm so glad it's over.

I feel the same way.

I understand that feeling.

I have some quick thoughts, which are when that kind of catastrophic thinking comes, right? The anxiety of like, what if all the bad things happen? Most of us react to that anxiety with like, no, no, no, no, no, go away, go away. This like feels awful. I like to suggest responding to that anxiety with a kinder like attitude, like, oh, Like I expected you. Hello, anxiety. Like, hello, old friend.

I thought you might enter the picture. Like having a relationship with it that like, I get it. I get you. I get why you're here. I have been through a relationship where I was completely let down in every important way possible. every important way possible. Why wouldn't my body be responding as if I'm in fight or flight?

Of course.

I mean, it's uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good. It sucks. But why wouldn't I? Of course. I mean, you're going to have to have new experiences over time for your body not to think it needs to go into fight or flight. That's what's happening in that moment. And so being able to go, oh, false alarm, but okay, I get it. And making space for it and being kind to it. And how we interrupt cognitive distortions, which is what that is, right? The cognitive distortions that like, oh my God, all these things will go wrong. I mean, could they go wrong? Sure. I mean, there is a possibility, unlikely, like small statistical possibility that all of the things will go badly, right? But the cognitive distortion is like, oh

my God, everything is going to be bad. And the only option is just to not go, but to really build a relationship with that anxiety and create sacred space for it and be able to remind yourself that, and this is where the like old trauma stuff is useful where it's like, Oh, some of this feeling is about the old stuff is about this terrible relationship I had and my body's in fight or flight responding to it.

It's not only about this guy that I'm meant to go have drinks with tomorrow night. It's almost not. There's a little bit.

That's right.

It's new.

And what are you going to wear? And is it going to be awkward?

Is there a difference between that and being excited?

Right?

There's the excitement sometimes that we confuse of I'm spiraling.

That's right.

Sure.

I'm sure it's an intersection of all the things. Totally. Right? And so trying not to believe your body right away that like fight or flight, like this is an alarm and I have to react.

And just welcome her a bit.

Welcome. Oh, that makes so much sense. Hi.

I love that you said hello. I've been expecting you.

Yes.

Yes. Welcome back. And I'm sure I'll see you again tomorrow.

We should work this out. Like, I really want you here.

Yes.

Okay. I can do that.

Because you can, when we talk to our anxiety, like, oh my God, oh God, no, no, no, this is awful. And there's nothing I can do.

It heightens me because when it's not going away, then I'm like, oh my God, and now it's not going away.

And I'm profusely sweating through my gray shirt.

Yes.

And then do you know what happens is that you take the action of canceling the date and now you've paired together like Pavlov's dog, the anxiety only being fixed by avoiding the thing. Oh my God.

And I love a good cancel. I love a good cancel.

Right.

And so that doesn't mean like, like you never cancel. I mean, if it's a particularly about like, sometimes things happen and you pair those things together. But in general, if you can recognize that, make friends with the anxiety and then give yourself like a just right challenge. So maybe the just right challenge isn't like a two hour long dinner, but it's like, a 30 minute drinks or something, or like a 30 minute coffee. You microdose the anxiety, the anxious thing, right?

Oh, that's genius. I really love that.

So you're like, you know what? I can't do dinner, but I can do coffee tomorrow for like 30 minutes. And then you're like, then I have a thing.

Amber's like, I do that all the time.

Right?

And so you build up a muscle and then it becomes a little bit less about whether or not you liked him per se, although if you do bonus, but more about like, oh, I have some mastery and agency over... You're training yourself. That's right. Over my body and how it responds. And then I get to start asking questions to myself like, how do I feel around this person?

Yeah, you're not running a marathon. You're just like going out for a walk.

That's right. That's right.

Around the block.

And then I'll be home.

And I'm calling you after this, by the way.

Like, I've been wanting to get into therapy because there's just so much that I need to unpack.

Yes.

We've got codependent relationships happening. We've got so much.

And now.

knowing that I'm, you know, four years away from 40, which is like no fucking big deal, right?

Not a big deal. I've got my kids.

It's not like I'm on some biological ticking clock, but I do look at my life and I'm like, okay, even though I'm happy, the anxiety rears its ugly head of, you've never experienced marriage. You will never, not you will never, but most likely you Never experience being with the father of your children. That's just a fact, right? Like even if a guy comes in, he will not be the father of my two children. So there are all of these things that I start thinking about that keep me up at night.

Like I'm fine throughout the.

Day because I'm keeping busy and I can celebrate all of my accomplishments because I'm like bright eyed and bushy tailed.

But the moment it's time to go.

To bed is when like the big ghost comes in to just freak me the fuck out.

And make me spiral.

That is another time, although much more challenging because it's dark and quiet and lonely. But that is another time to be like, hey, girl. Hey, anxiety. Welcome back. Thought you'd come when it was quiet. But and to be like, well, wow, those are those are grief worthy things. That is sad that you won't be with the father of your child. Right.

I mean, in this case, it sounds healthy. But that's very healthy. But that is sad for the whole family system.

Yeah.

And you get to feel that. And so instead of it being like, oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming and awful that like, right. Like, I guess my body is telling me I need sacred space to mourn this.

Yeah.

That's the signal rather than it being like, oh my God, this is so awful. It's like, oh, this is a signal for my body that I need. To think about this and create sacred space to mourn this. Yeah. And those kind of grief-worthy things we can never fix. Like you were talking about this earlier, right? You can never fix perfectly. You can never put like a bow on them.

Some things just hurt. Some things just hurt. And one of the things I'd like to talk about is the difference between being inside the emotion of something and outside of it and narrating it.

Oh.

Very different. When we're inside the emotion, we are acting out from it. Totally. And the things we're thinking and the things we're doing are coming from that pain point. And it can be uncontained, dysregulated and very difficult. But when we come to know the pain point, we can like stand outside of it and be like, look at me.

I'm I'm feeling those feelings of grief about, you know, not having the father, my children in my life.

Right.

Look at me. I'm feeling that grief again about having all these years by myself. And you can talk about it and name the feeling. It sounds like you girls do that often, like we're talking about the feeling, but you see the difference that I mean is that when people are acting out of feelings, it is often dysregulated and damaging. And when I say damaging, I mean, sometimes toxic and dysfunctional, but sometimes internally damaging because you're just stuck in the feeling and it feels hopeless and despairing and scary. Yeah. And it is why therapy is, ladies, is so important in my view. It is not the only way to get there. Therapy is not the only way to get there. But having some space to be with a trusted other around hard feelings, I feel like

is one of the keys to mental health wellness. We can't just do it inside our own head.

Yes.

When you first start entering a relationship, right, you're like three months in, even if there's nothing wrong, do you find that it's healthy to, this is like people that are divorced and have kids and bringing, you know, two kids.

Families together or whatever.

Do you think it's healthy to start therapy as a tool for a roadmap on how to deal with exes and kids and just like past stuff?

Absolutely.

Yes.

I mean, if only, and this would be baseline reason, the way that you, if there's kids involved, the way that you communicate with your kids about new others in their sphere is important. It should be nuanced and intentional. It doesn't have to be overly complicated, but it should be thought about. And the way that you bring in another into your sphere should also be thought about in terms of like when and how often and all the things.

And I don't want to give some blanket formula, because I think it depends on the scenario, age of the kids, so many different things. But I think it's a wonderful idea. It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong if you don't, but there are a lot of dynamics happening when you're trying to blend people together. And so if only for the kids, and then when you start thinking about the adults involved, if there are Xs in the picture, or when you're formulating... a new connection, all of those things can be conflictual, undermining, anxiety provoking, meeting one another's kids, trying to figure out your place and the other's family systems and vice versa. And conflict can arise or anxiety.

And again, just like we're talking about, if not spoken... About it tends to come up in some other way through symptoms, right? And now you and your partner are agitated with each other or, you know, you're not answering each other's texts or like something starts happening instead of the thing being talked about. So I love the idea of proactive therapy in that. scenario, I do a lot of work and I work in high conflict. I mean, I work in divorce in general, but high conflict divorce as well. And so I end up seeing a lot of folks in that scenario, post-divorce and in new relationships and trying to think about all the things that are involved in that.

Yeah. What's your question, baby?

My question was, if you are seeing a couple as their couples therapist, do do you see them individually? Like how does that work if they, if they have their own personal therapist, would that mean that you come in with the other therapists.

And powwow about it?

Or like, what's the best way to go about individual mixed with couples?

It's a really good question. The, uh, The best demonstrated practice is having a couples therapist and then each individual having their own individual therapist. And if you sign the right release forms, everyone can talk and share and conceptualize the case together and be a team, which I think is wonderful. And sometimes a couples therapist will see each member of the couple individually to get more information, have more.

Complex discussions, that is a tricky scenario that should be carefully negotiated. Both members of the couple should feel comfortable with it. There should be rules of engagement. There's no secrets, for example. And there should be kind of a stated intention. Like we're doing this because she feels more comfortable talking about her traumatic history or saying more about the dynamics of the relationship that don't feel good and need some coaching in terms of how to say it when we're all together or something. Right. But the best demonstrated practice is to have it all separate and then to have everybody collaborate.

Like a little team.

Yeah.

Okay, one more before I release you.

Yeah.

Let's say you work with a couple. They end up not working out. The guy or the girl gets into another relationship and comes to you for couples therapy. Would you still work with that couple even though you worked with that person and their ex?

Right.

Sounds familiar.

I'm asking because this happened to me.

Me.

So I'm seeing a couple, they divorce, and would I now see one of the members with their new partner?

But you can't discuss the old relationship, can you?

No.

What you worked?

Yeah.

No, I mean, I couldn't even acknowledge that I saw the other person in therapy because it limits the confidentiality.

Would I see my old therapist out?

In L.A., she can't even say, oh, hey, Amber, I have to go up to her.

Yes.

A good therapist will go to.

Like, that length to keep.

That's correct.

Same with an attorney.

That's correct.

Family attorney.

Yes.

They cannot approach.

So the limits of confidentiality would require me not to even acknowledge that I had had that dyad in my treatment to begin with.

All right.

You're like, Dr.

Hillary, remember it's me.

You saw me on Tuesday.

Always remember if you see your therapist.

Well, if you see your therapist out, the requirement is that... We as therapists follow our clients' leads. So if I was your therapist and you acknowledged me, I would also acknowledge you, but I wouldn't say, oh, it was great to see you in my office yesterday. If you said to your friend, this is my therapist, Dr. Hillary, then I would follow your lead, but I would not self-identify unless you did.

Do you do it in person?

Are you a Zoomer?

I do all telehealth.

Okay.

I want you in the room, baby. I want you in the room.

I know.

That's my rigid side.

I love it.

I am so happy. Why do I? I feel like when you cried, I cried your tears. My eyes are burning.

Really? That's how in sync we are. I love you so much. Thank you so much for coming on to our podcast.

Such a pleasure.

You are just like a bright light and I could listen to you all day.

Thank you guys for listening to another episode of An Unlikely Affair. We're going to catch you guys next week.

Bye.

An Unlikely Affair: The Parts We Can't Erase

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