WWE RAW POST-SHOW (10/12): Keller & Machado talk Carmelo Hayes joining 946, WarGames potential teams, Breakker, Oba-Heyman, Cass, Graves

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1:25 slash govip. Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. It's time to talk this week's WWE Monday Night Raw. All right, the 9-4-6 against... the bloodline, I guess. Solo said he's not with the Usos, but he's tight with Reigns. So Solo and the Usos against the 946. I don't think we ever got a decision.

2:03 It just turned into a wild brawl after Jada Parker threw the ref around. And then we have Surprise, another mystery member of the 946, dressed as a 946, enters the ring. And it turns out it's Carmelo Hayes who has been missing for a while. Don't believe the rumors, right? Trust trusted sources when they don't speculate wildly or guess news, as I call it. Yeah, Carmelo shows up. I like this, Javier.

2:35 I like this for Carmelo. I think it gives him a menace and an edge and a character that is better than what he had been playing before. And I wouldn't have minded if he sort of played the same Carmelo, but there was a sort of ceiling on that, and this is something fresh, and I think he'll be good in this role.

2:54 What do you think?

2:55 Yeah. I was beginning to like him as a baby face, mainly because of the work, because that's kind of the direction. It almost feels like what I'm trying to do with Chad Gable, where his work was what was getting him over with Dragunov and Andrade, which, interestingly enough, they're both gone. So, you know, the work that he was doing with them, people were starting to, you know, like that.

3:21 They were, you.

3:21 Know, he wasn't killed when he was up against.

3:27 Trick.

3:28 People were interested in that. But this is a nice way to move them up quicker. I think it would be harder if you wanted them to be a babyface in the future. But I do like what they're doing now.

3:45 With the caveat of what they always worry about that hobby or if we do this we can't turn a later yeah that won't yeah i.

3:50 Mean i can tell the picture that that's something they might be thinking about you know i mean uh the way the way they've been doing things lately um the the thing i i want to see what the dynamic between him and keys is going to be yep uh and i really hope that we get more interactions with that group so we could understand that group better i think those two would be your you're stronger to anchors as the leaders, because I don't think the other two are, the other two are heavies, you know, and they're fine.

4:13 I think they're better just as being a menacing, you know, person in the background. Uh, uh, what's your name? Jada Pickett Smith. Uh, What's her name?

4:22 Parker.

4:22 Jada Parker. Jada Parker, yeah. She works well just as, you know, what she's doing. So I like this, and I mentioned this a while ago, that my concern with this kind of group is I want to see a group that feels like a threat, someone that's dangerous, and they've done that. And they've kept that momentum, particularly adding Haze to the group. And yeah, overall, the only caveat being that Jay and Jimmy have been assholes, you know?

4:54 So it's like, I have, you know, it would have worked a lot better if this were a group that I'm actually rooting for. So I'm more like just watching like, you know, clan warfare and, you know, but I'm not invested in either side winning. So I'm just like, oh, this is cool. You know, it's more like I'm sitting down like train wreck. which is going to be fine for some people, but I, you know, I'm not going to be invested in, you know, Jay getting, you know, if they had maintained Jay, the Jay that was, you know, main event Jay, and they had maintained that character, I would have been more, you know, I would have been more devastated, more angry that they were beating him up.

5:30 Now it's like, you know, I don't really care. And even with Solo, who I like, you know, he's a quote unquote baby face, but he's like more like a silly heel kind of baby face. kind of, kind of real, you know, thing. Cause he, he never really, you know, he's still a little bit like slimy in the way that he, he, he acts, but it's meant to be endearing, uh, which it is, but still it's like, you know, it's, it's would have been better had they, they, they pens, you know, like we were sure that they were like people would get behind.

6:02 Yeah.

6:02 I mean, we're supposed to be intrigued, but not emotionally invested in a certain outcome, just interested and intrigued and find the fight compelling um you know at the top of the men's division that's been you know a booking philosophy for better for worse and or for worse or better and the um well i mean there's just a chat here from drawl you know those didn't get a reaction for the fans when getting beat up and solo is the only one who got fans to react solo's been likable and charming and a stand-up guy he's been aligned with la knight who's massively popular and those those have been I don't know if wishy-washy is a word.

6:39 It's more inconsistent. I think fans have emotional whiplash when it comes to Usos. They feel one way and then, whoa, I jerked my head. I'm supposed to, what did they just do there? Oh, and I don't like that, but I like to yell yeet.

6:50 And I'm going to put this on them because you, what they're done with them would have worked. They just seem too silly or not silly. It seemed like they're too, they're acting. it's not part of their character and it's more lines that they've been reading lately which is what i haven't what i haven't liked about the story that they've been telling with them is you know it besides the fact that it feels like they've been just spinning their wheels the storyline not moving forward and everything is them acting you know oh my god i can't you know overreacting to everything basically uh they're at you know instead of um instead of acting like you would expect like a regular human being, they're like, they're acting to 11.

7:32 And I think that that's also hurt, hurt it because, you know, it doesn't, I don't, it feels more like they're putting on an act. The Usos are, then they're actually being, you know, they're authentic selves.

7:45 So let's connect this to war games. I mean, obviously we're booking backwards from war games. This is all happening, heading that direction. Carmelo gives them, a fourth member. Do we, is it four on four? Is it five on five? Uh, because we've got the Usos and Solo and Roman. We got LA Knight as Solo's friend. We got Jacob Batu in this mix. Also, how does, how does this break down?

8:12 Roman will be on Raw next week. The, um, you know, some comments in the chat kind of wondering where this ends up. Um, when all those fall into place. Darrell in the chat said, even when they add Jacob, I think they still need to add another baby face to get a baby face reaction like LA Knight. I don't know that Roman necessarily ends up part of the match.

8:34 It seems like he ought to be.

8:35 Yeah.

8:36 Javier, what do you think? And they played up the notion that Roman and Solo have a relationship that the Usos are not privy to. And Corey talked about that during Solo's ring introduction. They certainly underlined that. The dynamic with Solo and Knight which I want to get into also, LA Knight's reaction to what happened Saturday and then his reaction to Solo joining with Usos. Knight kind of gave you as a viewer a sense of, I'm not sure what's happening, but if LA Knight's cool with it, so am I. LA Knight apparently knows what's up and he endorsed it, so I'll wait it out. So I thought that was a good touch too. But yeah, there's a lot of moving pieces, but at least we got to a solid four on the 9-4-6 side.

9:20 Yeah, I was thinking about the– after Money in the Bank, I was thinking about how– I thought it was going to be the next pay-per-view. I forgot about Crown Jewel. I was thinking how that was going to shake up where it could be four versus four or five versus five.

9:38 Right. Either way.

9:39 Yeah.

9:39 Originally, I thought that if it was going to be four versus four, it could have been that Solo was actually working because we never saw– they kidnapped him, but we never really saw anything as far as I remember that they really did anything to him. So that could have been like a swerve where, um, you know, that, that solo is actually working with them because of, because of their history. And then you, then you would need a fourth person, which I like the irony of LA Knight joining the line, you know? So, and I'm pretty sure there's a right. Yeah.

10:08 Yeah.

10:08 Yeah.

10:09 Yeah.

10:09 Yeah.

10:10 Yeah.

10:10 Yeah. Yeah. Joining them for the match is what I meant, but yeah.

10:13 Yeah.

10:13 Aligning was up for the match. Um, the, uh, I like that irony. Um, And I think somebody in the writer's room likes that because they did the same thing with CM Punk, CM Punk joining them for previous war games. I think that's still likely to happen with, because you do have the, you have five, right? Yeah, you have the five members on the Bloodline side, but they could always take out Jay, Jimmy, Solo. Somebody could be taken out from the group. and then have a plug in LA Knight, I think would be a likely occurrence, unless LA Knight ends up being recruited by the other side as their fifth member, because he hates the Bloodline so much.

10:58 I thought his.

11:00 Wait, say that again?

11:02 That Keyes' group recruits LA Knight because he hates the Bloodline that much.

11:08 Okay, yeah.

11:08 Because I think that the Knight and Solo thing was a little bit more ambiguous. where you're meant to read both equally that he is, he's willing to give him enough rope to hang himself, uh, night to solo, um, that he, he's like, okay, I know I, I, cause I saw it more like, I see how it is. Um, and it could go either way, I think. So, uh, but I came out more of it with him saying, I see how it is. And like, kind of more like hurt because he thought that he, he sees it like as a betrayal.

11:42 I think it, I think it would be preposterous for LA Knight to align with the 946, given their tactics, including an attempted vehicular homicide or Um, but they get sanctioned matches and they get to enter the building through security or I don't know, whatever. Um, it's a little silly, but that said, I'm.

12:01 Just throwing it out there as one of the possibilities. My, my hardest, my hardest thing is, is that he'll, he'll be a member of the bloodline faction.

12:09 I am not, I'm not disparaging you when I say it.

12:13 But occasionally they, they, they do like, and that's the thing they do like sometimes just like ignoring that and just, Hey, this, this makes sense. for the story that we want to tell and not necessarily cross your eyes and dot your t's you know yeah.

12:26 And and that's the thing it would be preposterous because i don't believe la knight's character la knight's character i think i think is one of the last people who would align with the 946 out of spite for the bloodline uh especially if solo is on the opposite side because there is a tense but mutual you know respect or rapport with them to me i might my lead i'm Well, go ahead. Yeah.

12:52 With the caveat that you would have to do stuff to get there. I mean, we got weeks to get there. Maybe there are a couple of miscommunications between the two of them. And L and I just has enough and says, you know, screw this, screw you guys. And then turn to you, basically.

13:04 Well, that's the thing. I think Knight would have to having lost clean to Roman. He's lost one of his top talking points. He was gracious and a good sport and a grown up about it. It wasn't the outcome he wanted. Um, but, and he didn't have a chance before solo came in to really, um, you know, kind of get deep into how, how he feels about it.

13:23 But he, he said, I don't want my flowers. You know, it wasn't the outcome I wanted. So when I say it'd be preposterous, your. Interjection is smart, which is there. He could go on a journey now. Like he lost a Roman. In a way, all hope is lost in the short term for him to be world champion. Roman beat him in a way that L.A. Knight was being a little snotty last week, saying you can't beat me unless your cousins help. So did that was that trying to lay the foundation for L.A. Knight? Because I don't think turns should happen arbitrarily and out of nowhere. But sometimes you have sometimes you life changes. You you have goals in life that you don't want to achieve. And then it changes your attitude. It changes your confidence. It

14:07 changes your willingness to use certain tactics to get what you want if you've had a setback. So you can tell that story with Knight if you want to go. And Knight's like organically more popular than even his push or, you know. His pay grade, probably. I'm sure he's doing very well. But, you know, I mean, like he wasn't supposed to be this over. I mean, Duke Saturday, Money in the Bank. I mean, L.A. Knight was way more popular than Roman. Right, Javier? Leading question.

14:34 Absolutely.

14:34 Absolutely.

14:36 Yes.

14:36 So to turn him could actually work because I think fans would feel you're giving something up. But when a babyface is really over like L.A. Knight is, but he's not your top player. baby face where you're just blown up like turning over would be ridiculous even though it'd be amazing um it would be ridiculous decision but if he had aligned with him and they'd make a lot of money as a heel tandem but it would it'd be ridiculous because of what you're giving up with la night it wouldn't be ridiculous to give up his popularity you could afford that he's a he's an nhl analogy he's a third line right wing you can afford you know to to not have him in that spot um as a baby face. I don't know if that actually worked,

15:15 but he's not the heart and soul of everything that they're doing. So turning him gives, would fans feel very betrayed, very upset with it. And there's been speculation that he might, you know, that that could ultimately be there, but it wouldn't make any sense unless he had a setback. And then he felt in some way betrayed by Solo, but it'd have to be a misunderstanding of, where fans resented Knight for it because you don't want any sympathy on the 9-for-6 or anyone they align with. I don't want to go too far down that road, but I think it is. I asked the question, you gave an answer that covered the bases. It's worth looking at as a possibility.

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16:47 Either way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. So, Darrell, sorry, keep seeing Darrell's posts. I'll get to other people's posts soon here, too. Would an LA Knight turn make him a top two heel on Raw? I don't think it would, but it is a talking point. Piledriver Pete says, I'm upset thinking about it. Don't turn them. Yeah, and I get that. I get that. I'm not endorsing it as much as I'm saying, can you get there without it feeling preposterous by the time it happened? JC Scooby says, no turning heel by night. Super chat from Derek Mitchell. Just keeping score. The Bloodline has appeared in War Games versus Brawling Brutes and Drew in 2022. OG Bloodline versus a new Bloodline in 2024. Roman Uso's Cody Punk,

17:34 as you brought up, Javier, against The Vision and Brock in 2025.

17:40 Yeah.

17:40 So anyway, I talked a lot about night there. You can follow up if you want. I also want to talk about other possibilities.

17:44 And you got six weeks. That's what I was looking up. You got six weeks before the thing. So you, I think it was six weeks for, I wouldn't like it if it's, if there were, if that were their plan, I wouldn't like it in four because then it'll feel like it's, you would have to move it around too quickly, which is, you know, it would be a different kind of problem moving around too slow. But six is a sweet spot. So like if they wanted, you know, they wanted to do it, you know, you start setting to the seeds for the first two weeks and, Really, things come to a head and then blow up on the fourth, and then you've still got two weeks to set up the new status quo.

18:15 Yeah.

18:16 No, six weeks is enough to tell a story arc. Kamanti Smalls in the chat says, Javier, I'm sure Knight can be involved in something else given his clean loss of money on the bank. There's nothing more for him with that. I didn't look at Knight in the exchange with Solo as a write-off that indicated Knight's moving on.

18:34 They could have done that. That was not the single. The single I got, my interpretation, you had a broader evaluation of the options. But I saw that as Knight kind of going, yeah, I'm not mad. I get it. I know what you're up to. Something like that. And to me, that felt like he's still involved in a way where you're... We as viewers are intrigued enough to spend a few minutes talking about his role in this.

18:56 They could have steered us away from that with tonight's show by not having him on at all. Just give him three weeks off after a world title loss or... something you know get them started in a different feud but they didn't do that.

19:06 Yeah yeah the best best way to say is that i've heard somebody tell oh don't worry i'm not angry at you way too much that's kind of what that felt like to me it's like oh.

19:15 No i get it yeah i i in looking at it i i read it i get why that seemed like a possibility if you read it on paper but i trust it's acting and that's not the vibe i got from.

19:28 Him now I got pretty neutral, which is why I kind of like, you know, yeah.

19:33 Yeah.

19:33 And I think that's intended. I think that's intended because they do like to keep their options open to see where they're going. And, you know, I think you keep them where he is. I think this is where like, you know, Vince McMahon, I mean, probably wouldn't have gotten that far because he got over when he wasn't supposed to.

19:51 You know, they would definitely turn him, like, tomorrow in the worst way possible and then, like, you know, just because they know that would kill his momentum. I mean, you could do with the story, but, you know, I think that they like the idea that his, the fact that he's always had an issue with him, he'll find...

20:09 the enemy of my enemy is my friend when it comes to the bloodline. I think that based on what, this is just general feels, general vibe of WWE. I think that they would find that idea more appealing than actually doing a heel turn for him. So I think that's ultimately where it ends up, which then opens the question, if you're going to have a five versus five, who's the fifth member? And for a moment, when I saw them hanging out, I'm like, man, if you plug in Oba Femi into that group, You know, I'm like, that's scary.

20:42 You know, seeing that, you know, if you plug them in, I'm just like picturing that bit. I'm like, that's a monstrous thing. I, you know, and I haven't processed whether I would like, you know, that, but that, I just thought that was an interesting.

20:55 So Oba with the 946. Yeah. Sneak attacks, vehicular homicide, being framed as scary heels. And then you take Oba and you, you risk being, having him be a guy who stands for something and is willing to, I don't know. I, I, my, my initial response is no way. Keep him.

21:16 No, that is, that is also, but I'm like that, that's a good image. And you gotta remember WWE is about the image and the picture.

21:24 Well, I get it. I, I, I'm not things that I, they do things that I don't think they should do. And you're bringing up things they shouldn't do, but me saying they shouldn't do it doesn't mean, They might not. I think Oba, they wouldn't.

21:36 I think like along the line, an alliance with Roman Reigns, like if they can't deal with them, now we're going far down, but if they can't deal with them at war games, then you can see an alliance with Roman Reigns and Oba to further stretch out their eventual. And then once they resolve that, then you get the Oba versus Reigns.

21:56 Yeah.

21:57 All right. Some more comment here in the chat. Gilbert, Arbalo Arbalo says, uh, war games is foreign for traditional survivor series is five on five. Um, so, you know, it could just be four and four. We don't need fifth. I mean, we've got four people in, uh, the nine, four, six, if it's four, we got, um, you know, easily four on the bloodline sign without Roman. We don't have to turn LA night. We don't need to have a Femi in the mix and you end up with, um, uh, you know, still, I think, a solid situation. Solo, the Usos, and Jacob against the 9-4-6. Reigns does something different or takes the night off or whatever. Anyway, more comments here. Oh, Derek Mitchell with the Super Chat. Thank you, Derek. Says,

22:46 for those who don't know, the last time Solo teamed up with the Usos was in a six-man tag match at Backlash 2023 in Puerto Rico against Kevin Owens, Sammy, and Riddle.

22:53 Wow.

22:54 Thank you, Derek. King of the Super Chats here on our show. Yeah, it's... Having timeline references, it's just like, oh, that much time passed? Or was that recent? It depends on the situation. But yeah, it's definitely been a while. And I did like the announcers saying that when Solo made his entrance, Graves said that they're not sure of the machinations of how this came to be with Solo.

23:20 But apparently Roman told Solo, you don't have to listen to orders from the Usos. And then Tessitore said, yeah, it's not about a family reunion like they long thought about or imagined might happen at some point, but it's about survival. So they're really playing up that they can team together to survive, even if they're not fully officially reunited as a family. There's another super chat I want to get to. Reggie Brown said, I think Naomi is returning soon to join the Bloodline to go against Jada Parker.

23:48 There's a number of people chatting. Thank you, Reggie Brown, for the super chat. Really, really appreciate it. um yeah um naomi if she returns in and she can be a real good opposing force to naomi i don't think they would put them in war games um that's just you know too much trying to isolate them from everybody else but they could still obviously have a match adam kidd says i think jada should be the leader and mouthpiece So, yeah, what do you think of the idea of Naomi aligning officially with him when she gets back?

24:21 Here's what you do, Ed. You have another cage on top of the War Games match and have the women wrestle one-on-one match.

24:28 And then you....

24:31 All right. Channeling my inner... Don't put it out there. Gilberti The... Yeah, I mean, I like them as part of that. I think Keyes strikes such a, he has such a physical presence to him that I think that you want him front and center. She could be like, a mouthpiece and sort of like talking, but not leading the group. Um, cause I, I think I, I liked that image of her doing a lot of the talking with him kind of almost like a, like a, um, uh, a Brock Lesnar situation, you know, where she's talking and then, but, but he'll talk when he needs to talk and he'll, he'll, he talks less because what giving more impact on what he has to say. I, I liked that idea of it. Um, and yeah, I've heard some people speculate about Naomi too.

25:27 So, Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's out there. It makes sense to potentially happen. Carmelo, back to Carmelo for a moment. I'll throw some chats up here on Carmelo.

25:42 The last few Survivor Series have been 5-on-5.

25:46 Yeah.

25:46 Sorry, War Games.

25:47 War Games. Yeah. Yeah.

25:49 Yeah. There was one that was 4-4-4, but it was three teams.

25:53 Yep.

25:54 Good.

25:54 I'm glad you checked on that because I believe, yeah, I'm sure it was both at times. And if it was just most recently 5-on-5, we can lean that way, but it doesn't necessarily mean it will be. I want to get a few more chats up here on Carmelo and circle back to that for a moment here. Swole says, I like Melo being less flashy. Adam Kidd says, Mello works better as a heel for me, for sure. Derek Mitchell says, it's a great matter not to believe everything you read or hear online, especially when it comes to rumors from other wrestling sites and publications.

26:24 I missed all that, so.

26:26 Oh, no, you didn't miss anything. Mark Paschetti said, I was just listening to a YouTube podcast saying Mello might be headed to AEW. This is so much better. Honestly, wasn't interested in this main event. It feels beneath keys. I was all in once Mello showed up.

26:40 Javier?

26:42 Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in what the dynamic is going to be between the two of them. And like, who's going to be like the leader? Who's going to be the, did he show up, you know, later because he liked the group or was he like a mastermind kind of, you know, behind the scenes, you know, one of the people talking to him because that would also, you know, help. Because I mean, I personally prefer, Uh, it's not as good for, for keys, but I'm sorry for keys for, um, for mellow, but I do, I would prefer keys being the, uh, the, the, the head, the head guy, you know?

27:20 Yeah, I would too, but I have less of an issue now with them not doing character development with Bronco and Lucien because they now have proven talkers and Jada and Carmelo. And I think those three playing off each other with Neiman Price in the background as a heavies with their arms crossed, That works. I think sort of like with the Judgment Day or with the vision to a certain extent, they can each have their own personalities.

27:44 You know, Logan Paul can talk. Austin Theriault can talk. Maxine can talk. Obviously, Breaker and Reed and Heyman when he was there. So it's not like there has to be one leader, but I do think he has the physical presence and the momentum of being the top guy. But that doesn't, you know, you think about the NBA, centers aren't always a dominant personality on NBA teams. Sometimes it is the point guard or shooting guard And Carmelo has a chance to rise with a spotlight on him here by showing, you know, a shift in his character and having more menace and not being, you know, kind of the leaning on the tropes and the cliches that his character developed in NXT. I think this is a good fresh start for him. And yeah, I'm intrigued too.

28:30 Darrell says, I love to see Mello with that group. And now I want to see how things go now. Derek Mitchell adds, I've been a fan of Melo from his days on the Indies to NXT and was dissatisfied with how he's been used on the main roster thus far. So hopefully, whoops, hopefully he'll get more of the spotlight being in 9-4-6. Another quick comment on him is, Cavante says, I've been asking for months where was Carmelo. Glad he didn't get the Ilya treatment after all. Amongst the group, he may be the second best promo after Jada. That's an interesting point too, Javier, is Rice Keys is not a proven great promo. So having Jade and Carmelo there helps Keys do what his strength is, but not have to broaden his promo skills to a point where you

29:13 might lose some of that credibility or the menace and have it seem forced.

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30:34 Swole ads, by the way. Mello's jacked now, too. He wasn't just sitting on the couch. Javier, your thoughts.

30:40 Yeah, the key thing is he's not somebody I want to see stand there in the middle of the ring and cut a 15-minute back-and-forth conversation with somebody. That's not his strength. But he is good promo players. he is a good promo. It's just needs to be short and sweet. And, you know, but, but you got fit, you, you got 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes segments to fill. And I think that would be his, his weakness. And that's why I liked the idea of, you know, you have Jada or, or even Mello being the one who's the, the one who's yapping or yapping. And he's great at yapping too. So have him be doing, you know, yapping and then Mello just being, you know, he's just, you know, you know, just to stand there so quickly and then

31:22 just say what he needs to say.

31:24 I like keys being the leader who starts off the promo and then throw, and then Jada and Carmelo end up doing in total, 45% of the talking each or 40% each in keys. It's 10 or 20. You can also have Jada start things out. I think she's strong enough on the mic and then you go to Carmelo and then keys closes it out, which I think is more along the lines of what you're saying there. But I think right now the nine for six is in good shape. I have issues with the presentation and, where there's no way WWE should be sanctioning TV time for them.

31:53 They should be explaining why they're apparently getting past security to get in the building when they've been committing felonies. You know, they want to have people react like, oh my God, I can't believe they've done something so heinous and over the top. And then they just get treated like a regular wrestler the next week, other than commentary going, you never feel safe around them. But in effect, they're just treated like regular wrestlers. And it actually undercuts the whole point of doing the stunt angles in the first place. Javier?

32:19 And that's one of the things I was having an issue with was in the commentary because Graves, and I don't know who's on the right in this, because Graves was frustratingly trying to get. Uh, Tessitore to, to like react stronger saying that they're, you know, what are you talking about? That, that, that they're down, their careers might be over. So, so Graves is trying to sell like how, you know, what the, you know, like, Oh my God, this is beyond, you know, beyond the, the pale, uh, while Tessitore is like just basically calling it. And that's the thing. Like, I'm not sure which version I prefer because, you know, In reality, we know that the career's not gonna be over. It doesn't reach to this level, but it's like a junior

33:09 varsity version of Moxley choking somebody, putting a bag over somebody's head. It's a crowbar, and yeah, it should break somebody's knee, so you have that level of violence. But I think that. I'm not sure who I like better on that because, because Tessitore is treating it like how, like, Hey, it's wrestling.

33:31 And this is stuff that happens with wrestling. These people have like superhuman, you know, somebody could take a crowbar to the knee while, uh, while Grant is trying to sell it as, um, you know, Oh, his, you know, you're, you're, you're underselling this. He's they're, they're all dead. They're all going to die, man. They're all going to die. You know you know, we're nobody. And I'm like, I don't know which one I prefer. Cause one to me is like two low keys to Loki while the other one is like, you know, trying to sell me hard, you know, give me the hard sell, you know? And I'm not, I'm not sure which version I like better.

34:03 Yeah.

34:04 I think Graves knows he's savvy to know kind of, okay, we need to frame this as, in a way that matches the angle. He's just a more seasoned participant in observer pro wrestling than Joe Tessitore. Obviously, there's people in the back feeding things on headset to both of them. But Graves will go into business for himself if he thinks something needs to be phrased differently. I mean, we've heard him going back to Booker T, just being so frustrated with Booker undercutting things. Graves takes personally the action he calls. And he wants it to be called with the right tone, with the right framing. And usually he's right.

34:45 And I'm okay. I trust him more than I trust Tessitore to immediately tell me it was a classic or Michael Cole say match of the year, you know, before you have a chance to even exhale after a pinfall or tap out, they just tell you how you're supposed to feel about the match. And they should let that breathe more. That happened again today with their, their standout IC title match. So, which we'll get to. So I think there's different categories of telling people how to feel.

35:06 And I think grades gets it right more, way more than not. And I trust him more than Tessitore as a default starting point.

35:14 Yeah. And in general, yeah. But in this case, I think they're both technically wrong. I do think Tessitore was underselling it while Cody was overselling it. And that's the thing. I don't know which one.

35:24 Yeah.

35:25 A little more on Carmelo here. Derek Mitchell says, when people outside of WBS, Triple H, who the next stars in wrestling are, he said, Obafemi, Trick Williams, Javon Evans, and Carmelo Hayes. But Melo was never presented on TV that way. Well, Just waiting for the right angle, I guess.

35:42 I think overall, the number one thing that in that writer's room, everybody is, we are in the Obafemi business. Because I think that's going to be- For sure. That is number one. Every single thing you do in that show is we're in the Obafemi business, and that should apply to everything you're doing, including this. So look at who from this, who's involved in this, who are opponents for Obafemi. We know Reigns is going to be, but, you know, Reigns is on the tail end, right? But, you know, for the future, you need to be, I think the WWE right now needs to be thinking not about booking to the next pay-per-view or the next WrestleMania.

36:16 I think they need to be thinking about, like, what we're going to be doing five WrestleManias from now and who are the people that we're going to, who are going to be the opponents we're going to have for Obafemi if Obafemi is the one we're going to end up writing. And I think it is. based on everything they've been doing so far. So I had this conversation with my brother. I had forgotten to mention Keys. Keys would have been the other one I had on there, but I had Keys, I had Trick, I had... The problem, Mellow is Mellow's size, but I like Mellow. And I think he has a place in that in a.

36:45 Adam Cole, because Adam Cole was also very tiny, but he could still get matches because he would cheat and do stuff. I think you do that with Carmelo when you're facing him off with Obafemi. But you need to be in that business. And if you don't have like... And I think we already saw some of that, and we'll probably talk about it in a minute, but I think we saw a little bit of that because it feels like what they're setting up with Femi is a.

37:11 Like Hogan and Heenan, where Hogan's rival was Heenan, and Heenan was just bringing bias from the fight. And I think we're seeing that develop with Oba and Heyman.

37:26 100%, yeah.

37:27 Yeah, and I think that you should be looking now at the members that comprise these groups and who are going to be the ones that he's going to throw and feed to Oba Femi.

37:36 100%, yeah.

37:37 And I mean... I'm here for it. I've talked about it over and over again for months. The Heyman-Oba dynamic can be Heenan Hogan. And I think tonight, as Darrell pointed out in the chat earlier, tonight was also the start of Paul Heyman becoming Bobby Heenan-Oba. My only disagreement there was it wasn't the start. The start was a couple months ago. I don't know the exact moment. But the idea of Heyman courting Oba and Oba rebuffing him, rejecting him, is going to drive Heyman crazy. And it is the foundation for Heyman being relevant today. Not that he– relevant is not a bar that he needs to achieve in anything he does. He's always relevant. But it gives us an idea of how he will– specifically how

38:19 he'll be relevant for years to come, which is I need to take Oba down. And we don't even know some of the wrestlers because they're not on our radar who are going to be managed by him. But that is– they're in the Oba Femi business, as you've said, Javier. Absolutely. As for Carmelo's size, comparing to Adam Cole, I think Carmelo, as Swole said, he's Jack now. He wasn't just sitting on his couch. I think Carmelo can look more credible than Adam Cole did in this mix.

38:47 I chose Cole as an exaggeration for the point. But yeah, I would think on an easy one-on-one basis, you know, if, if, you know, if you're going to, you know, match them up on a one-on-one, like you, you would take Oba the majority of the time without something else, you know, swinging over to, to, to the Carmelo side.

39:09 Yes.

39:09 Yep.

39:10 All right. Uh, let's see another, uh, we'll get to another super chat from, from Derek, uh, Mitchell on a different topic. There is, uh, A ton, well, a ton of chats we haven't gotten to. One thing about the commentary I'll throw in, JT will play. Welcome, JT. Says, props to Corey Grace for remembering the psychology recently and carrying, carrying much of WWE commentary lately. Indeed, indeed. JC Scooby underlines, looks like with not being used, Carmelo was working on his upper body. uh derek mitchell says the promo will be fine with jayden mellow and the michael hayes roles as the voice of the 946 and keys will be in the terry gordy role as the blue chipper heavy in the group keys what can do more than than

39:54 terry terry gordy was more of a kind of wild card crazy eyed maybe mark briscoe compared to jay briscoe and in a lot of the promos you know tell him bam bam and then you know terry just say a few words keys seems more um what's the word I'm looking for? Just kind of a, there's a cadence to Keyes that feels more thoughtful and less unhinged than Terry Gordy. I get what you're saying, Derek, but I just, if people go back and watch Freebirds interviews, I think they'll see that there's a difference. But the idea of Carmelo throwing to Keyes to close out a promo, the way that Hayes threw to Gordy to kind of have some closing words, I get that part, but there are some real strong differences too between Gordy and Um, Terry

40:41 Gordy's great and, uh, in the ring and as a character, uh, but some definite key differences between them. Uh, let's see. Um, well, I haven't even caught up on the, uh, on, on reading the chest and I'll put up, but, um, certainly we had a lot. Um, oh, here, here's one. Uh, uh, Sutherland three says mellow is jacked and more athletic than Adam Cole. So he looks more believable.

41:03 Uh yeah i was i i went to i went for an extreme as yeah i.

41:07 Yeah i get your i get your point i know you don't have to defend yourself.

41:11 Yeah yeah i'm just saying that if cole can do it carmelo obviously can't yeah that was the point i was trying.

41:17 To make yep yep um derrick mitchell says uh that's a fair point about terry gordy he was a wild brawler where keys is much more calculated in his approach absolutely You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership.

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42:13 All right. Let's deepen the show, but we should take a moment to introduce ourselves here. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Monday, October 12th, 2026. I'm Wade Keller, host of the show, editor, publisher, and founder of the Pro Wrestling Torch Weekly Newsletter and the website PWTorch.com. Latest copy of the Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter, my cover story on POC, AEW's celebration of POC with their wonderful tribute show on AEW Dynamite. There's also a full-page column by Greg Parks, which is assessing... The future of Steve Borden. Really good, thoughtful, full-page, in-depth article. Good for your brain to read long-form media and not just the dopamine rush of short-form social media stuff. Lots of

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44:19 watched Money in the Bank late that night, ran out of steam, and finished it Sunday morning, and then put my report up with my analysis. So some of my writing is VIP exclusive also, especially when I'm not covering it live. Thank you to Derek Hubbard, by the way, for covering it live. I so enjoy his reports and his analysis, his time in the ring, along with his just– great recall and immersive following of WWE really adds to his report. So he covered, covered it live. And then we had our post show wrestling night in America on the PW torch daily cast feed, search PW torch, subscribe to that. If you haven't yet, Nate Lindbergh and Tom Stout reunited from the PWT toxin XT days and analyze the show. And then we had a VIP exclusive

45:02 round table afterwards, also hosted by rich fan, Um, and, uh, so all kinds of, uh, coverage of money in the bank this weekend. And, um, yeah, so anyway, all kinds of cool stuff when you go VIP, but the VIP round tables after our podcast, after, uh, PLEs and pay-per-views are some of our most popular, um, uh, are some of our most popular features. Uh, Javier, I saw you raise a hand.

45:30 Yeah.

45:30 I want to put Derek over, um, cause his experience, um, you know, uh, in the rank, put a lot of the because there were a lot of like, you know, nasty bumps and and and and messed up spots. And he put a lot of like into perspective, like what what what might have been what might have gone wrong and that stuff. And I found that that was very, very, very neat to hear from him.

45:53 Yeah, absolutely. So Sean Radican, Rich Van and Derek Hubbard talked for an hour, 20 minutes about money in the bank. on Saturday night, VIP exclusive. Also, Nick Barbatti had a special episode of the Nicky's Club, another VIP exclusive weekly podcast. 41 minutes of his solo analysis of Money in the Bank.

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47:02 New weekly feature that should drop on Sunday nights with a look at the latest happenings in pro wrestling. Also, a VIP exclusive episode of Ratican Worldwide featured his interview with speedball Mike Bailey. He talked about with Mike Bailey about transitioning from TNA to A.W., being married to someone else in pro wrestling, representing the LGBTQ plus community. Also, he talked about United Empire and more. So good 20 plus minute conversation with a longtime people to torch columnist and contributor Sean Radican with Speedball Mike Bailey. So that's just.

47:38 Scratching the surface of VIP exclusive content so much just in the last few days. So go VIP. I'll put it on the screen for our YouTube viewers. Once again, PWTorchVIPinfo.com. If you're listening to us on the podcast side of things, PWTorchVIPinfo.com. Sign up with debit card, credit card, PayPal, Patreon, Spotify, or your Apple account. We'd love to have you get a full VIP membership and join the conversation in the VIP forum. It's kind of a continuation of what happens here in the chat. Just people with a sense of community talking about the latest happenings in wrestling. We are talking the very latest happenings in wrestling here on the way Keller post show. And my guest co-host is Javier Machado,

48:16 longtime PW torch contributor. Javier, how did your, he writes predictions for WWE PLEs and posted them on the site. early on Saturday. Hopefully you are checking up pwtorch.com for Javier's previews on WWE PLE days and then watching what is usually my live coverage or our team's coverage afterwards on the website. Javier, how were your predictions? How did they turn out? I don't have them memorized. I proofread your article. Got me thinking. But how do you score yourself?

48:42 Um pretty much average um literally like half of them off um on the money in the bank because there's so many participants I have more analysts that's what's hard the chances of each person.

48:52 I did not have my confidence yeah.

48:54 Yeah I have Penta as my dark horse um with you know the more likely being either um Punk and uh and KO because they're involved with Sammy but I had a strong feeling for Penta because I think it was a reward for all the good work he did during the during the South America um And I think that they don't have, I don't think there's an out plan.

49:18 I don't think they know. you know i think they just gave him the title the the the briefcase i also thought that he would be the one who'd be the one that had the blinged out briefcase for the longest that they could actually sell and they had a commercial for it uh so um and tiffany was obvious and um yeah and and obviously uh uh reigns was obvious so Yeah.

49:41 No cash in, though, with the match going on first. I'm glad they did that for all kinds of reasons. But one of them is it took away just waiting for a cash in, you know, to happen. And depending because it would take away the fun of even people buying L.A. Knights near falls if they thought, well, the money, the bank winner. especially if it's like Bron Breaker or something, it's just going to cash in and Knights Reign barely before it begins.

50:02 That's not true. The caveat I put for Bron Breaker was the only way, if the Reigns match happens last, then Bron Breaker might win. Otherwise, he's not going to win.

50:12 Exactly. And I mean, I didn't think LA Knight was going to win, and I said why I didn't think so, because I think WWE's keeping Reigns super strong for the Oba match, and you don't want Oba beating Reigns to feel like, oh, he's the third person in the last six months to beat Reigns. The second, you really want to keep him strong because they are in the oba femi business but tiffany stratton won so or that was your prediction that she'd win yeah i i i.

50:36 Went a step further that if chelsea gree was out there to cheerlead for her that would be the dumbest thing she could possibly.

50:42 Do yes yes okay um cool that that's uh A lot of bases covered. Join us in the chat if you're watching us live on YouTube. Don't be shy. Fun group of people there. And you can email us, as always, wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com. If you want to know how to be a caller, I'll tell you. all you have to do is go to PW torch, our website, go to my TV report. We do this after Rod dynamite and SmackDown and also PLEs. There's a link there. You click on it on your phone. You just, it'll launch your ability to be a caller. You can turn your camera off.

51:15 If you just want to be an audio caller, we have people who do that, or you can be on camera too. That is up to you, but that's how you become a caller. We welcome new people to the chat. We welcome new people to be callers. It is not a closed door club. We will make it comfortable for you. And we'd love to see new faces and hear new voices. So, Consider yourself invited. Rude Dog, by the way, in the chat said it's worth going VIP just for the roundtables, let alone everything else. Derek Mitchell said we missed you, Wade, but kudos to your son and glad to hear he did well in the Miracle Worker play. It's always important to be present for your family. Yeah, I wasn't going to miss that. Thanks to Kelly Wells, by the way, too,

51:52 for hosting in my place on Friday for the SmackDown show, too. Um, and, uh, Brian Zillum for hosting last Wednesday, all kinds of stuff going on, uh, for me this past week. And so as a little less visible, um, than usual, but catching up, um, and keeping up. So, all right. Well, so much more to talk about on the show. Let's get to, uh, I guess some other topics, even though there's even more, more comments in the chat on the developments to close out the show with Carmelo Hayes. And let's bring, uh, speaking of colors, Darrell Freeman into the conversation to help us lead the way. Darrell, welcome. Good to see you.

52:27 Good to talk to you.

52:29 How y'all doing today? How y'all doing today?

52:31 Doing great. Doing great.

52:33 Okay. I'm doing quite well. I know my team and your.

52:42 Team 5-0, so high five. And it was a good fifth win. I mean, that was not like the other team tripped over themselves. That was fun. Javier has left the building. I don't blame him. Um, yeah, it was, uh, that was fun. I don't know. I mean, I think they're getting better as they go. And that defense is amazing. Darrell, how about you?

53:06 Oh yeah. Um, I can't wait to, um, we meet y'all before the nine somewhere down the road, you know, it's.

53:14 Going to be fun. You're, uh, you're rustling by the way. Your mic is hitting your, your beard or your skin.

53:22 Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, it's the beard. Now I got to cut it off like you said.

53:27 Yep. That's right.

53:29 Yep.

53:29 You had one warning.

53:31 Yep.

53:33 Now.

53:33 A goatee's fine. I don't think that'll be a problem.

53:37 Okay. It's been a minute since I had one of those. But yeah.

53:41 Yeah.

53:44 Oh, so we'll... I know everybody was talking about ending of the show, but just to add something new and different, tonight, Seeing Bron Breaker come out there and destroy the rest of Javon and Penta, I guess we got the vision kind of moving on, just like Oba been moving. He's moving on, as he's trying to say. And I want to see him because lately, Bron and how they been having him be with this new character, he's been kind of more destructive and more aggressive. putting thought into what he's doing, and I'm liking what he's doing, and I'm liking everything, and I want to see how this go, and I felt like having Penta win the Money in the Bank, you could tell more stories with that Money in the Bank briefcase, and having Braun trying to prevent

54:34 him from winning it and stuff like that, I want to see the story, and I think they could have an amazing match, and also keeping Javon in there as well, just to have him as somebody, and they keep building on to these guys, like Penta and Javon, since they, since what, about three, four weeks ago, they've been building on to these guys and keep building on this babyface heat on to these guys to where right now you got Oba as the legit number one. You got a Penta coming up and a legit number two. And then Javon, probably at a third, probably a fourth, maybe behind L.A. Knight, depending on what they do with him. And that's another conversation.

55:16 And there's a reason why I put him at three. But I like what they're doing. I want them to continue to build on like they should most of these guys. And how did y'all like that whole segment as a whole?

55:27 Javier, talk about it.

55:30 Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like. that's pretty much what I expected. Uh, mainly because since I know there's, I feel, you know, I've been guessing there's no direction on the, uh, Penta thing. He basically just cut his, uh, a pretty, you know, pretty good. Hey, look, I won in this, you know, thank the audience. And I like that. Um, uh, Javon, the only thing I didn't like about Javon is that it felt like, uh, he was overacting the injuries a little bit. Um, but, uh, but you know, that, that with experience, he, he, that, that's okay. Um, and yeah, I, uh, Breaker, I think, is one of those you need to have an eye on to be, you know, one of the main rivals for Oba going forward. But him, you know, him picking on... Because Javon is going to be a

56:14 fan favorite, and him picking on Javon, I think, is going to get him heat because people really like Javon. Like the fact that they didn't just forget, you know, they still made him seem important after that because I felt that they were sacrificing some of the stuff that they had with Breaker, uh, uh, for Javon. And then they, you know, they forget about him, you know, just, just for the match. And then if they forget about him, but then they gave him a lot of stuff in the match too, uh, whether you like it or not, that was still a major spot that he got. Um, they keep pushing him and I think that's a very good idea, because he's going to be particularly very popular with the younger audience. So I think that, again, I

57:00 like the fact that they're building for the demographics that they want to hit and it's going to be, they're going to be growing bands, but I feel excited for what they're going to do with a lot of these characters.

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58:09 My thinking is Bron and Bron Breaker firmly heal again. where there was a little bit of kind of ambiguity. It was a little murky for a little while, just because of the dynamic with Heyman and his tone kind of changed a little bit. He's never been like, well, he's been not, he has never been exclusively a yeller.

58:28 He's kind of mixed up the intensity with talking in a more collegiate way. But this attacking Javon the way that he did was sore loser. I mean, it wasn't just, hey, here's a powerhouse who we're neutral on. You're supposed to feel like that was. Yeah, I mean, Tessitore saying, what the hell is wrong with Braun Breaker? This is sickening. That flags us as viewers to know they want him to be booed and to be a heel, which is obviously the right way to go if you're going to feud him with Javon Evans.

58:56 It's an endorsement of Javon Evans. Obviously, Javon, they are very high on NC. Big things for him, but he's not a top, top guy. He's not a top tier guy yet. He is going to be a borderline guy who fans get behind. He puts up a fight. He's the right person for Braun Breaker to beat after a little bit of a setback for Braun. I think they are at the stage where Oba rejected Heyman and Heyman is now going to have to grovel or regroup or recalibrate. And, or reconsider copyright Paul Heyman. He doesn't do that anymore.

59:28 So I shouldn't do that to him. It's been like five years, but regroup, recalibrate, reconsider his thought that Oba is the future and get back on the Bron Breaker train and Breaker putting in impressive dominant performances allows us to watch that happen and understand Heyman had a reason for doubt, just like we did. Now Bron has erased that doubt. And now Braun looks like he's back in the league of being a foe that's a threat to Obafemi.

1:00:00 So some form of, I think we're on that journey in some form or fashion at this point. Do you agree with that, Durrell?

1:00:09 Durrell, do you agree with that?

1:00:11 Okay.

1:00:11 Yeah, I do.

1:00:13 Because I think they pulled back on Braun a little bit and now they're going to rebuild him. And I think they want to match the fan sentiment about him, not force him on us, but have us go, wait, now you're underpushing him or, oh, he needs to prove himself. And they tell the story that he does. And we as viewers are impressed in the same way that Heyman is.

1:00:29 And now we think maybe Braun has the setback. He was humbled and having to prove his worth to Heyman led to an intensity that we haven't seen in him. which is weird to say because he's so intense, but he took it to another level. I think that's a story they're telling.

1:00:44 Controlled. I think it's more of a controlled intensity. They've told the story several times because that's why he was intercontinental. He lost him because he was undisciplined, lost him, then got himself back under control and won it back. And I think it's wise to go back into that, but at some point you do have to finish him. in that level of story. I love the idea of the guy that looks like a meathead, but is secretly like a genius to go against convention. And that's kind of what the way they've always kind of played him. And I think that he'd be great to be, and even if he turns babyface in the future, Be the one where he's in calm, but then something makes him snap, and then he becomes a monster, and then he comes

1:01:36 back under control at some point. That, even as a babyface, because that would be his comeback, would be when he snaps, takes down the thing, and then the crowd's going to go nuts. Old school, baby.

1:01:46 Yeah. In the chat, 7-Eleven says he's going to reach his breaking point with breaking in quotes.

1:01:56 Don't give Mike Is for T-shirts, please.

1:01:59 J J and Hartford says, Bron was fun Saturday and Monday. No need to rush him into the main event. Perhaps let him be Gable for the title. Then lose to Javon at mania and a multi-man ladder match, a full circle moment. Uh, Cabante small says, Bron breaker should adopt some elements of Ken Shamrock's character, a loose cannon. Who's cerebral.

1:02:16 I don't know.

1:02:16 Shamrock was a Shamrock was cerebral in UFC. And then Vince McMahon cartoonized him into something else that took away the cerebral aspects of whatever Shamrock had in UFC. Um, I think we learned he wasn't super cerebral, but ultimately in UFC, in his realm, he was. But he didn't have that. He wasn't able to portray that in WWE, although Vince McMahon cast him in a way that didn't really even give him a chance. Anyway, that's a whole other topic.

1:02:43 And I would say this, because the reaction to Penta and Javon tonight was very nice. I didn't think they was going to. say anything after Javon has said the little, you're, and the whole crowd said it behind him, so you can see his growth. I think the best thing that they did for Braun was, They didn't hold it back.

1:03:05 They put him on pause. So now that he's on the rise as a heel again, he got two other people, maybe just one with Pinto, but he got two other people who are on the rise as well. So you got a comparison with two people that you can compare him to right now. instead of people feeling like, oh, they're pushing him down in my throat or anything like that or he's getting it too fast, you're in a race with two other guys and people are now looking at who's going to make it first? Who's going to make it over first? Because right now, They can't run the race with it over because he's completely done with his race.

1:03:45 He's over, over.

1:03:46 But having two other guys that you can go against and people want to watch and see where these guys go, I think that's the dynamic they have created for him. And now that he's improving his character with what we're seeing today, that's just going to magnify his character where he can get that same amount of heat as somebody in his own faction as Logan Paul is, just naturally, because that's who he is. He's a hated person, naturally.

1:04:13 So I want to see this, and I think that's what they did, and they did him justice by doing that.

1:04:18 I think Penta's promo was good. It didn't overstay its welcome. I think Javon interrupting was good. I felt Javon walked up to the line, but didn't overdo it on selling the injuries. And, you know, he did go through the roof of an ambulance, and they were selling that big. So There was, you know, justification storyline wise, even if it was a little, you know, corny.

1:04:41 I didn't think it was horrible. Like, oh, my God, turn off the TV. But I'm like, I'm not buying it. It's there's enough there where I'm like, OK, you're overdone.

1:04:50 Yeah.

1:04:51 Yeah. But yeah, I mean, Evans being a good sport coming out saying I want to, you know, I want to see you in person and congratulate you. uh, worked and then everything with, uh, um, with, with breaker that followed, you know, kind of cut that short too and work. So they gave Pence a time to talk. They gave John a chance to show up and despite going through the ambulance and show he's, he's, he's okay. Even if he's on, uh, on crutches, um, or limping, uh, I should say with, uh, not on crutches. Um, that's, uh, the care, but, um, has the arm in a sling and is just walking like he's an 80 year old man right now, but he made it to the ring and he showed that he, um, you know, can still talk.

1:05:35 He said he's messed up, banged up, walking with a limp. They tried to send him home, but there's no way he'd miss Raw. And he said that Penta deserves the briefcase. So I think it's just good when baby faces are nice to each other and gracious. I think that should be a baseline trait that is common, not universal, but common.

1:05:51 And we had that. So, yeah, I mean, just big picture. I like the segment. Javier?

1:05:55 One of the things I like about the line that he delivered was that you deserved it this time. you know, like saying that, you know, in the future, I'm going to be, you know, you, you know, I'm going to be a bigger threat. I like that. That was a nice little dig, little confident dig there.

1:06:11 Yep.

1:06:12 Yep.

1:06:13 All right.

1:06:15 Okay. Now, um, to add something else new, um, Bill Morgan back with the title. I was surprised that they brought out Chessie Green and hearing that, um, Tiffany Stratton is hurt. I guess she really did hurt herself and finish that match. And she shouldn't have finished that match. And they started promoting Crown Jewel, which they did not say where it's going to be or if they're going or whatever. But that's another thing because we haven't seen no more promotion of that at all. And just seeing where they're going with that, Champion versus champion, I guess, because they don't have nobody who can go against Liam right now since they started, I guess, the rivalry between Becky and Stephanie. So that's why I was saying in

1:07:08 the chat, I think Naomi is needed in the WWE women's picture. title picture because they don't have nothing right now, nothing interesting, and people already be like, Liv, don't defend the title. And it was so funny that she was talking about Chelsea not defending the title when I think she done defended it more than when Liv had it.

1:07:27 So it was just a funny dig, and you could tell that they be listening to what people be saying online. But I like the matchup, and I like how Chelsea was wrestling out there, and she was confident. They got rid of that she's scared of her own shadow type of thing. And I like that they had her out there and she was being a clever baby face and not just, oh, I'm scared of my own shadow and all of this. And I like that she was defiant at the end as well by when Liv came up in her face and she slapped her. Because, you know, that's something that people like of a baby face. I like that whole segment for Chelsea, but they still need some working on that women's picture on Raw.

1:08:10 As a whole it's interesting too they bill her as the champion they don't talk interim but then live said you're a placeholder champion so they did reintroduce that i was just thinking they're just dropping it entirely um and then live reintroduced the notion you're a placeholder not a real champion as one of her dicks uh hop here your thoughts on on the the segment judgment day and uh and then ultimately uh uh chelsea.

1:08:33 Yeah i'm kicking myself because i forgot about the uh what i didn't think when i wrote the um the in the primer and i i always i always rule of thumb is unless there's a very good reason to take the title off of champion and you don't want to pin them it's going to be the champion who's retained i i didn't cross my mind that she would have won the championship because it was they wanted to give the the chile you know, the, you know, Chile, you know, the, the, the, the crowd there, you know, Hey, you know, she, she wanted there. And she was just going to be transitional because then it makes sense that now she's going to be wrestling Becky one-on-one without the title involved. And then no, nobody important needs to do

1:09:12 the job at crown jewel when it's a, a, a champion versus champion.

1:09:18 Right.

1:09:18 Um, But I, which makes me think of it. And now I'm picturing the match and I'm wondering if now Tiffany Stratton catches in to put herself as making triple threat.

1:09:32 Yeah.

1:09:32 I mean, and you know, with the idea that the mystery is that she on her side or yeah. And then she cheats to win or that keeps her.

1:09:39 Yeah.

1:09:39 Go ahead.

1:09:40 I'll stop talking. Yeah.

1:09:41 Yeah. Yeah. We're both about to say the same thing. I think where, where, where, where she, you know, she ends up getting a sneaky pin on Chelsea and beats her. instead of you know them teaming up against uh yeah.

1:09:52 All right uh throw it back to you that's if she helped him because they did mention that she she hurt well anyway.

1:10:01 So right could be a while yeah we'll see could be a while she's in concussion protocol if she is yeah now oh by the way real quick just on the chelsea green thing jay and hartford did post I love Sirius Chelsea tonight. It was presented in a way that wasn't totally out of line with her character. I think they are trying to find the right tone with her and it's been a little shaky, but I liked her tonight. I wasn't thinking about consistency over time, but I also think that she, her being brave against Liv or Roxanne makes sense because there's not a size difference or anything. Liv is sort of a fraudulent champion and, And Roxanne is just a gnat, a pest who's just like, I can. But I actually like Perez was brave enough

1:10:46 to go, yeah, I'll take the match. They didn't play the trope that she was scared or anything like that, too. So anyway, I thought it was I thought everybody were well represented and it was believable that Chelsea acted the way that she did.

1:10:58 Yep. And placeholder champ doesn't mean that she's like, oh, it's not the real champion. It just means she they see her as a weak champion. I guess I put it as somebody who could be beat. She's beatable. So you just hold the title until I'm ready to take it type of thing. So I like that. And she had a nice comeback for that, too, when she said that as well. So that was also nice. But to go about something that I was talking about earlier, L.A. Knight.

1:11:29 I want to see what they do with him. I was kind of expecting to see if he was going to come out there at the end. And do whatever. But he does have like a fork in the road where he can go. And like you said, he can go heel. That'll be interesting. Or he could stay babyface. I'm going to speak on why I think he should stay babyface. Because right now, WWE on Raw has been showing you. they have been able to build on Babyface momentum for at least two characters. We just spoke on them, Penta and Javon. And I would love to see them keep trying to build on that Babyface character and dynamic with L.A. Knight and Solo that hit just a couple of weeks ago and had been going nicely. So I want to see if they can build on that and

1:12:20 keep that going because, again, I still think the Bloodline themselves, they need another Babyface to come in there Who's going to make the crowd get behind them? Because tonight people wanted to see Jay and Jimmy get beat up. And I don't think even if you add Jacob, that's not going to add intensity. But I don't think he's going to add more people to cheer like they were when Solo was getting beat up and the concern and stuff like that. So they need something like that. And plus, I also think they need to keep Roman out of it because he turns he turns it into more of a traction match. And it takes away what he's been doing with people when he's been performing as a heel.

1:12:58 He's been better to get one person over when one over one on one matches. But when you add him to the total bloodline, it started making it into a traction thing. So I want him to stay far, far away from it. And I want them to add another baby face in who can help separate these guys and give 946 a real heel feel and not just an interesting feel with people interested in the seat. And with Carmelo being added, people really going to want to see them now and be interested. And you want to form them as a heel. So that's the journey that L.A.

1:13:32 Knight can have and add to their group to put some heat, real heat, on 9-4-6. Because just beating up the Usos and even Jacob don't help. Solo helped a little bit, but he needed a little bit more help with an extra firepower and babyface.

1:13:51 Before pushing play on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows, check out PWTorch.com and our TV review section and skim through a full rundown of the TV show. If you didn't see it, that's your way to get an overview of what happened before you dive into our in-depth analysis of the key happenings on the show. That's PWTorch.com, your home for live TV coverage every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with my TV reports. And also check out our NXT and Impact coverage on Tuesdays and Thursdays, our Collision reports on Saturday nights, and of course our live pay-per-view and PLE coverage on weekends. All waiting for you at PWTorch.com. Crowd, I mean, Solo was a star of that match. They were milking the hot takes to him. It was designed

1:14:30 to give him a big pop. He got the big moves and counter moves in that match. This felt like an endorsement, I don't know if reinvestment is a word, but an amplification of the investment that's ongoing with him tonight. And that's important if they want the 946 to be heels because so much of the crowd is wb's audience for kind of decades now more often than not uh not exclusively or entirely but are encouraged to just react to moments and big stars and not take into account their constitution their values their their conduct um and apply it to real life standards they're just oh react because they're cool you know it's randy orton does all kinds of but it's randy we're okay with it roman reigns

1:15:13 big narcissistic prick, but he's Roman Reigns. He's the OTC. So if you don't want that to happen to the nine, four, six, especially because as you say, Daryl, the Usos have been, uh, you know, people like to chant yeet and they slap hands with fans and smile with kids, but they're also have been, um, you know, portrayed in a way where it's not, it there's, it's murky at, at, to put it lightly. So having solo is a strong baby face.

1:15:38 Fans love Jacob Patu. They want to cheer him. Um, even though he's crossed some lines, um, And then LA Knight, a good, you know, clear cut baby face. So to keep the 9-4-6 from being cool guys who are cheered, especially with Carmelo in the group, you know, you want to, again, we're assuming what should be obvious, which is WWE wants a 9-4-6 boot and the bloodline cheered here, but they may not care. They might think we just want to be intriguing and have this feel like a spectacle. Javier, your thoughts on any of that?

1:16:09 Yeah, I mean, one of my takeaways was this is, it felt like the most heat I've seen in a WWE show in quite a while. Crowd was really against what the, what Key's group was doing. There was also some of that with.

1:16:28 Do you think, sorry, sorry, was it because of Solo primarily or also the Usos?

1:16:35 I think it's primarily solo. Cause I mean, I don't think they care what's going on with the uses at this point.

1:16:40 I mean, I agree, but I'm generally wasn't sure what you'd say.

1:16:43 So, yeah. Yeah.

1:16:44 Yeah.

1:16:44 So, so, um, uh, and there was a little bit also with a cast cause cast, you know, uh, taking out, uh, um, uh, uh, Ray Mysterio. So, so it was more, it felt like it's the most that people have been aligned, uh, with, you know, the, the, what they're trying to present. So I, I, I, that was one of my big takeaways. Is there another part to that.

1:17:03 That you asked? No.

1:17:07 Yeah.

1:17:09 Darrell, anything else you want to add? We've talked so much about that already, but I'm welcome to take a new angle if you have something.

1:17:15 Oh, no, not a new angle. I'm just, they finally, and I think that's something that you asked about way before. and you always talk about, is getting the fans to react to what you're doing and not reacting to the moments. And they need to get back to that. And they finally started to build some momentum to that and changing the crowds and changing the mindset of the fans. You need to keep doing it. Don't lose them. Because we need to switch this whole mindset up. We're in fandom anyway.

1:17:41 So I like it. Hopefully they can keep doing it. Now, to the over things. And Wade, you've seen a lot of this with Bobby the Brain Healy and the Healy family and stuff like that. I really want to see what Paul Heyman does. I don't want him to come back and, like, go to the bench and immediately do this.

1:18:02 I want him to go away. And when he come back after being rejected by Oba, you come back with a plan and you have somebody. And to me, this started the line to where Mr. Heyman is going to be the coach. for the QB1. In my mind, in my eyes, in my book, because you step away for a while, they start missing you. Where's Heyman? And stuff like that. He see over get all this success because tonight also over felt like he was going and his main focus is Roman Reigns. And he look like he's dead set on whenever the next time Roman Reigns come in, he's going to be there and I'm going to be there to see you. So I want him to get that success. and then Paul Heyman come back with whoever the Heyman guy and part of the Heyman family be.

1:18:55 But I would love to see that, and that's more interesting to me.

1:18:58 Javier, does this come across to you, looking at WWE's planning or booking, that we're seeing– The long term planning and even maybe draw will turn out to be right. Hame goes away for a while and then it sets up a shocking Cody Rhodes turn. And they planted a few seeds, dropped a little hints, flagged things a little bit here and there. And then eventually that happens. And we're watching them kind of everything we see week to week is just trying to fill in the outline of what they planned for. six months or a year ago.

1:19:34 Not that there isn't a small augmentation or, you know, somebody gets over or doesn't get over whatever they do, they augment things. But because it would explain, and I'm not against that style of booking, but they don't seem to be booking week to week in a rhythm as much as trying to fill time between major chapter points that they've preordained are going to happen on certain dates.

1:19:54 And I think it can lead to some clunkiness and storytelling, but some cohesion in the long run. How do you feel?

1:20:02 Yeah, that's, it's a bit weird, because that's one of the ways that, and I've seen, we've seen evidence of them doing that, where they obviously want something to happen on a specific day, and they're booking that direction, and they're like, one of the pretty, I think it was pretty obvious, that this is what they were doing there, was the Sami Zayn, people started booking Sami Zayn before the storyline had gotten there. I think that was one of them, but they continued with the same cadence that they were originally going to do. But then at the same time, there are other times where it feels like they were open booking because they didn't know where everybody was fitting. And I think that was a representative of

1:20:40 what was the um, the, the, the stuff that's been happening with the bloodline early on where, you know, and part of the reason why we don't know who's the baby face and who's the heel, because they haven't really set a course on the direction they're going to go. Uh, I think in reality, what you need to do is find the middle ground between those two, have an idea where you're going, but also be flexible enough to change when either. The direction you're going, you know, the fans aren't following you in the direction you're going. Someone gets over, you know, over when they weren't expected to, which we saw with Penta. So that's another evidence of that, because I think that they weren't expecting that Penta was going

1:21:17 to get as over during that, his feud with Brands as they did. Um, you know, so I think you want to be, I think you do want to have a plan, an idea of where you want to be in WrestleMania, but also be flexible enough to not be married to that idea. If, if, you know, and be able to pivot quickly and make those decisions quickly too.

1:21:37 because if you wait too long, you don't have enough time, and if you pull the trigger too early, it might've been just a phantom, like a phantom event. So I think that's what's the beauty of the bookie in storytelling, and it's why I like comics and long-going TV shows, because that's the same kind of thing, particularly in old school comics, let me rephrase that, now they're written for 12 issues. But in old school comics where it was like, you know, hundreds of issues, it was the same idea.

1:22:03 So you have to like, you know, you have an idea and you even do that, what you see, like, for example, maybe the Wiseman hints that Cody's been dropping. What was the hint that he said? Oh, that's not a prediction. That's a spoiler. And there have been a couple of things. Maybe those are just things that are throwing out there to see how the audience reacts. And it might pay off and it might not. It might not pay off for like five years and you toy back.

1:22:35 In comics, there was a storyline where they introduced an idea for the X-Men called the 12th. And that storyline did not pay off for like, I think like 10 years, something like that. And there was another one that Peter David for the Hulk introduced an idea that didn't pay off until like 40 years later. I'm exaggerating the years, but it was like a massive amount. I think it was like 20 or something like that. So that's, you know, but they just went because you had that idea, that seed that you planted earlier on. So I think that is when you're writing like long-term and constantly churning, it's a good idea to basically keep all of those in mind, which is why it's hard. And sometimes, you know, when

1:23:10 you see a wrestling show, Like WWE, it's like sometimes it feels wrong when they're getting one of those components off.

1:23:16 Now I'm thinking about our 40-year-old storylines I want to see get paid off in the next year or two.

1:23:21 You know, I mean, they could go back to who ran over the rock, you know? You got tons of them there.

1:23:27 Go back to Babydoll and the envelope. Mystery envelope at Dusty.

1:23:30 Rhodes, yeah. GTV. One thing I want to mention.

1:23:35 Vince McMahon's son, the mystery GM.

1:23:38 Who tried to kill him.

1:23:40 Eric Bischoff's big surprise. It wasn't just a Goldberg Hill turn, it was something else.

1:23:45 But one of the things I did pick up from the match, though.

1:23:49 That should be a topic of the VIP forum, by the way, by the way. What storylines in the past should be paid off from the past?

1:23:55 And book them all out. But one of the things I did pick up on, though, was it felt to me that Solo was channeling Rikishi a bit in some mannerisms and some of the stuff that he was doing.

1:24:07 I think he's been doing that regularly, actually. Well, I mean, he's still solo, but yeah.

1:24:12 Well, I mean, he, I felt more, he was channeling the Maga, you know, and he was still doing that. But now that he's kind of more, more leaned into the goofiness of the character, I'm seeing a lot more of the, you know, particularly his mannerism and how he looks at the camera and stuff the last couple of weeks.

1:24:27 But today was like specifically, I thought for a moment, he was going to give us a big face.

1:24:32 Kind of did. I mean, hip attack is just a, is just the G rated version of what it actually is.

1:24:37 Darrell. And with the Heyman thing, right? You can always, cause you got to return it. Drew, Drew can come back. That's how you can break it.

1:24:48 Braun Strowman. People keep dropping Braun's name. I mean, you could, you could have a lineup.

1:24:52 Yep.

1:24:52 You can have a lineup of wrestlers who Heyman manages and it doesn't just, you know, cause Heyman just been, so it's, it's Roman or it's Brock or it's punk. And you can actually shift it to it's, you know, cause we're seeing Heyman's character. He's just like flailing, looking for somebody. And, the way he treats the vision has been, you know, but Bobby Heenan had a family, you know, the Bobby Heenan family, uh, before the Don Callis family.

1:25:17 And so, uh, the first family of Jimmy Hart, you can have a family of wrestlers who are, you know, Devastation Incorporated with Skander Akbar is, you know, going after the Von Eriks. Um, and so you can have Heyman manage a group of people and they kind of take turns. We're kind of getting that with, I guess, Bronson Reed a little bit. Um, So, yeah, I'm just kind of thinking through like how you would manage a wrestler coming in as a kind of a managed by Heyman, but not part of his group long term versus those who are part of the group long term and how you manage that in the modern era with all the TV time you fill. But anyway, Drew McIntyre, Braun Strowman, QB1 heel turn for Cody Rhodes, reheat Bronson Reed, definitely reheat

1:26:04 Braun Breaker, throw Logan Paul at him. He's got height and athleticism. I'm sure I'm leaving. people off.

1:26:12 I forgot his name, the tall one that's in AAA right now.

1:26:16 Tala Tonga. No, I'm kidding. Omas. Omas, that's the one. Thanks for letting us say it first so you don't butcher it, Javier.

1:26:23 I was thinking about Babatunde, but that was somebody else.

1:26:30 Yeah, but what he did with Braun and Brunson Reed, he played mind games with them. He convinced them you bring in a Braun Strowman if he come back or Drew McIntyre, he can be like, oh, that's a client. That's a client I pick up. Clients fire agents all the time. Drop clients all the time. If they don't get it done, he separates from them or whatever. And asking you this way, what When Bobby the Brain Handling showed up with Andre the Giant and that shocking moment right there, was that the biggest shocking moment? Part of all the people who've been a part of the Heenan family before was when he showed up with Andre. Andre came and then he snapped the chain off. Yeah. So you can build up to that. And I'm saying something

1:27:28 like that. That can be a build up to when he finds, if he ever shows up with Cody. Just like when he showed up with Reigns, when Reigns came back and joined that Braun Strowman and Bray Wyatt match. And he came out there and he looked up and we seen Heyman and stuff like that. We've been seeing Heyman come out here for months with other guys, the Drews, the Braun Strowmans, reheating the vision up again. And all of a sudden, a champion overseas, Cody come out. And then Heyman. That could be shocking. That could be his, you know, Andre moment.

1:28:11 Yeah.

1:28:12 Javier, you want to add to that?

1:28:14 And it maintains the fact that Oba is a Heyman guy, except I think he'll like the challenge of him being a Heyman guy, but against Heyman. Yeah, sorry, against Oba. That way he could, you know, build Oba instead of like building him, you know, by being with him, build him by being against him.

1:28:31 Yeah.

1:28:32 All right, Darrell, anything else quick? I'm going to wrap up soon here.

1:28:35 Oh, that's it for me. That was all. All right, cool. Awesome. Great.

1:28:39 Thanks, Darrell. Always good talking to you.

1:28:41 Good talking to you guys, too.

1:28:43 On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when NXT ends. It's just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg, and alongside my co-host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks NXT. We go live on the PWTorch YouTube channel about 15 minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises. And we take your questions and comments from the live chat.

1:29:01 Miss us live, but you still want to be part of the show? Send your thoughts to PWTorchNXT at gmail.com and catch the replay on YouTube or on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed. Just search PWTorch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And, of course, you can always stream the latest shows at PWTorch.com.

1:29:15 All right, Chad Gable, Ray Phoenix. Intercontinental title match went to about 18, 19 minutes. Very, very good match. Two commercial breaks ate up a good third of it, so it doesn't have quite the flow that a PLE would have. So that's the downside. Now, you know, Tester, a little pushy, telling us it's a classic before we can even absorb the finish. They need to let the finish breathe a little bit and then say it more organically, not like you've been just waiting in prime to say it and tell us how to feel. That said, Gable has been, you know, kind of the new Ilya Dragunov. He's the guy who you're like, oh, good, we're going to get 15, 20 minutes. Ray Phoenix, really good opponent for him. Good sportsmanship.

1:29:56 Fans didn't really pop big for Gable or Phoenix, as I could tell in the ring entrances. or for a formal ring introductions by Lillian Garcia, who did a great job as usual on announcing when she, when she is stepping in to do that. And, but it was a good setup for Ethan page later to be the kind of the thug heel. So your thoughts on the match and the crowd reaction and the angle.

1:30:21 Yeah. I hope they keep, I know that, that Gable's not getting like great reactions or, They're always muted when he comes out. It's just kind of sad when people want, you know, like three people chanted Gable when the spot happened in the intro. You know, and I kind of feel bad for that, but he wins the people over during the matches. And I think that it's one of those situations, he's one of those wrestlers, Dragunov is one of these, um, um, Johnny wrestling is one of these where like, it'll take you a few matches and I, you know, it'll take you quite a while and just, you know, let them build the, the, the work rate in the ring. And you will, you know, uh, especially if you're a blander personality, like, like Gable, um, particularly

1:31:07 as a baby face, um, that, that people eventually glom onto him and we'll really get over because people, you know, the, the, what, what, You want to see of him and you want to see him succeed because of the work that he does in the ring. And I think that, you know, I do hope that they go, you know, they continue the push and don't like bail on it just because he's not getting great reactions. I think that that will turn around just based on the amount of the work that he's doing. Um, and, uh, as far as Ethan Page is concerned, uh, I, I, it's like the opposite of CM Punk with me. I'm, I'm kind of, uh, biased, uh, in favor of Ethan Punk.

1:31:44 Sorry, Ethan Punk.

1:31:45 Wow.

1:31:46 Uh, it's getting late. Uh, Ethan Page, uh, I really like his work. I, I, I've, I've, I, he was one of my favorite things in TNA. Um, uh, just, just some of the, you know, uh, great talker. He could fill those. He's one of those that can fill those 15 minute segments, um, by himself if necessary. Um, just, you know, I really like him.

1:32:08 He could have been a heel in the 1980s or seventies in Memphis. He opposite of Jerry Lawler and in the eighties, Lance Russell interviewing, Oh, Ethan page. Oh my God. I really can just hear Lance Russell, uh, Just just, you know, lamenting having to spend any time with him. And I mean, my point is you can drop him into territories. He could have been a Hogan opponent for, you know, a one or two month Hogan opponent who was just obnoxious. And you want to see get beat up and you knew Hogan to beat him up. So anyway, I mean, I could go on and on. He he he he would have worked in and he is at a timeless and effective position. heel who can kind of visit the main events but he's not a main eventer

1:32:47 uh just based on the way i don't know overall but i don't think he's that far from it i think they actually have to find him down a little on i think they've lowered the ceiling on him needlessly uh because as you touted javier there's all these examples of it working out it's just there's just an embarrassment of riches with you know with them and they see him as a bit of a second tier role player but um all the pieces are there otherwise yeah i mean i i don't.

1:33:09 Think he had the exposure that la knight had i think he could have been on the same level as la knight um you know uh but it's just just stuff you know the thing with la knight he was also at the right place at the right time as part of wrestling you know um and then the other thing with ethan page is that he's also very very good wrestler i mean he's not gonna he's gonna be a flashy you know jovan evans kind of guy but he's.

1:33:31 Super solid by the way yeah i mean super yeah Yeah. Roman Reigns.

1:33:35 Great match, by the way. That was a great match. I liked that a lot.

1:33:38 What was?

1:33:38 I thought that was the best match so far. That was great.

1:33:41 Like, it's just, it's so different than, quote, modern style. And I enjoy Will Ospreay and what he does, what Kenny Omega's done. But my God, Roman is just, he just put on a clinic out there. It's not for everybody and it doesn't have to be. I mean, you know, there's reason there's a, you know, there's a lot of different artists and categories of music, something for everybody and different genres can be really well done.

1:34:04 Even an album has different styles or different, you know, pacing in their music because if everything's on the same, what's the point of buying the album?

1:34:12 Yes.

1:34:12 That doesn't mean that different is necessarily better, but Roman is, makes everything count what he does in between the moves. It's just, they get the most bang for their buck.

1:34:21 Box was my favorite moment of the match.

1:34:24 Yeah.

1:34:24 The box, the power bomb. That was great because it made it look like it was a fight. Yeah.

1:34:31 I've said it. And over the years that when wrestlers screw up moves, it isn't necessarily a detriment because we're not grading this like an Olympic, uh, um, gymnastics competition where you got to land with your two feet perfectly with perfect posture. It's a fight. Your people are going to slip. What you don't want is when there's a screw up and two wrestlers stand in the ring and then they like, Oh crap. And then they redo the move.

1:34:58 Like you, you want, you, there are bad screw ups and there's, and there's scripts that look like they would happen in a real fight. You don't want too many of them or, you know, I mean, I'm not advocating for screwing up on purpose, but yeah, it's like, this was hard to do.

1:35:11 Had they reset, then you have a problem. They didn't reset. He just went back and persevered.

1:35:17 Persevered.

1:35:17 Yep. Yep.

1:35:19 Uh, anyway.

1:35:20 Yeah.

1:35:20 He prays on that match in my VIP exclusive money in the bank report. So if you're VIP, you can read my full rundown of that show and my thoughts on all the matches. Um, but yeah, Reigns is, Reigns is doing what Reigns does. I don't want, like you said, you want different, uh, different songs on each CD or each album. Um, you know, from the same artists. You don't want all the same pace and all that. So I don't want to watch a whole show everyone reigns matches, but that is a main event style that worked and LA Knight's better off for it. And LA Knight played his part really, really well too.

1:35:54 Yeah.

1:35:54 He roasts the occasion.

1:35:55 All right.

1:35:58 Let's see. Oh, some comments on Chad Gable. I want to circle back to him because there's some comments in the chat on him. Sadler says Gable has arguably been WWE's best in ring worker this year. Again, teach their own what counts as best in-ring worker, but in the traditional category of really crisp work, longer matches, tells a good story, executes moves really well, sells well, paces things well.

1:36:20 I mean, he checks so many boxes that fit what Sadler is saying. Derek Mitchell adds, I hope Gable has been good, but as an in-ring worker, but Roman had some great matches this year too. So far with CM Punk, Fatu, Rollins, Penta, and LA Knight. Um, yeah, it's, they're very, two very different wrestlers, but, um, and some people go out to rather have the gravitas and the sense of a, of a big fight feel and high stakes with Roman reigns and other people like, no, I just want to watch Chad Gable against a variety of opponents working 20 minutes, you know, or more, um, in, in place of any reigns match. I get that there's different tastes, uh, powder repeat.

1:36:57 And the chat says Gable is gold. I'll miss him working with Elia and I miss mellow and Elias bangers as well.

1:37:02 Yep.

1:37:03 Um, That happens. Hopefully good things come in for Dragunov. And Kavante says, what do you think of Gable's? I see rain so far outside of a couple of banger matches. Absolutely nothing memorable. Well, I mean, some of that is just, you know, Corey Graves on commentary tonight even talked about. He's like, I think, I think Chad Gable finally has the confidence that he can be a successful singles wrestler.

1:37:25 And it felt not in a way that it would be critical, but it almost felt like you can, it'd be kind of meta. Like you can read that in multiple ways, but he said that he has the belief that he needs to be a big single star. And I thought that phrasing wasn't X and O, because Corey Gray's very high wrestling IQ, and he's gonna phrase things in a way that makes two points. If he wants to make another point, he'll mask it with something that sounds more storyline. But he now has the belief that he needs to be a big single star in WWE.

1:37:58 Not successful winning matches, but be a successful single star. It's almost like Graves is pleading with the audience. Pleading is a word, but endorsing him through commentary that he's reached a stage where give him a fresh look. He's come a long way. This can work. And it is part of the storyline of him on the apology tour and stuff like that. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the native podcast app on your iPhone, you can unlock our commercial free versions of our free shows by searching PW torch in apple podcast you'll see a charcoal gray logo that says pw torch vip on it click on that there's some free samples of vip shows and you can unlock the entire vip lineup which includes

1:38:39 vip exclusives plus commercial free versions of the free shows by searching pw torch in apple podcast and clicking on the pw torch vip logo and then activate your three-day free trial. And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. Javier, your thoughts.

1:39:13 Well, one of my thoughts of that was I found the hilarity that now that he's become, you know, face and apologize now, now he's beating all the, all the luchadors, you know, this all started with him.

1:39:24 Yeah.

1:39:26 Take on the mask. Cause he couldn't beat the luchadors. And now that he's redeemed himself, he's beating all the luchadors. I just kind.

1:39:32 Of, there's a wonderful lesson for middle schoolers in there somewhere.

1:39:35 Yeah.

1:39:36 So, so yeah, I mean, like I.

1:39:37 Said, and like I said, I, I, I understand why, cause I, They assumed you watched AAA and you saw that hot match, the hot Grande Americanos against each other. They assumed too much. It was very similar to when Gargano and Ciampa first came over, when they were first brought over to the main roster, where they assumed that you had knowledge of who they were and didn't really do anything. I mean, still to this day, I think Gargano suffers from that. You know, so I think there was too much assumption when it came to that, but... Uh, you know, I want them to keep doing it because, like, you know, it's sad that, you know, disappointed that Dragunov is gone. Um, uh, because I thought that, you know,

1:40:26 he had, you know, he was the work-rate guy, and the match was, like, it was mentioned, the match with Carmella, which is why I actually, like, paused for a second that, you know, when Gable was having the best matches, I'm like, well, you also had him, and you had, um, uh, man, now it's getting late, I'm forgetting his name, a guy who takes off his pants now.

1:40:42 Uh, Andrade.

1:40:44 Andrade, there we go. You know, the stuff with Andrade, if that was this year or not last year, because I lose track of time. But yeah, I mean, you had a couple, like, you know, there are a couple of people that they select to have the, you know, the top matches. I haven't been too many lately, but this was definitely, I was very disappointed in the commercial breaks because I'm like, man, this just looked like a really cool match.

1:41:03 Give us a double box break at least.

1:41:06 Yeah. I think there were what, three breaks, I think.

1:41:10 There was a ring entrance and then once the bell rang, two breaks.

1:41:13 Okay, because I could have sworn that maybe it was another match where there were three breaks and one of the breaks was actually, I was watching on the Netflix from another country, and one of the three breaks actually continued the match.

1:41:26 Okay.

1:41:27 Uh, which the other two had commercials, but, uh, but one of them actually, you got to see this part of the match. My man, it kind of, I paid money for Netflix premium. I mean, come on, don't give me, let me see the match, you know, but, uh, but yeah, I was kind of disappointed in that. I'm kind of hoping that they like post on YouTube or something for the full match.

1:41:45 That'd be nice.

1:41:47 Yeah.

1:41:47 Yeah, for sure. Uh, another comment on, uh, Gable that I highlighted here. maybe i won't find it um oh it's about his music uh people wanting it to uh change here it is rude dog says i can't get behind gable with the music it's so cringe i'd rather he come out to silence jane hartford goes yes fix gable's music please yeah um and uh also random note but i miss american alpha with jason jordan yeah that was good crofton says highway to the sky don't change it um So anyway, just some comments here. As far as Ethan Page goes, Crofton also said, welcome, Crofton. Says, I defer to people who knew Ethan Page's work, but he has done nothing on the main roster that made me think he's anything other than a generic Miz-style jobber heel.

1:42:35 Nothing wrong with that, though. He's more than that, Crofton. He's more than Miz-like.

1:42:40 I can see why you would get that impression, though, with a lot of stuff they've done here. Totally.

1:42:44 I don't think it's a, what, you said that? I'm saying it's logical to say it. Ethan Page has more seriousness to him. Um, but I get, I, I get not seeing his full body of work, not being familiar with him and thinking that, but Miz has always been a goof and Ethan Page, um, is, uh, is he's somewhere in between Miz and MJF, you know, like he's got some of the MJF heel qualities and some is heel qualities, but he's in, he's in the middle, not, closer to Miz he's not like in the same category as Miz.

1:43:21 Yeah I don't think Miz can do sinister Ethan Page can do sinister he can do serious he can do serious.

1:43:28 Ill yep All right, a couple other Super Chats before we wrap up here. Derek Mitchell says, Timeless Tony Storm, Swerve, Athena, and Ricochet have rejuvenated themselves in AW from their WWE stints. I think the same can be said for Penta and WWE as he seems to be on a main event path. Javier, there are a lot of people looking at what's happening with Penta. And one, they're still skeptical. You know, limited on promos, kind of got hot by accident. WWE's kind of cashing in on it, but it's not a long-term thing with him as a top-tier guy. AEW was a place where the fan base would have been more willing to embrace it. And instead it was just the Lucha Brothers.

1:44:02 And I don't know, they didn't really, Tony Khan didn't seem infatuated or, you know, invested in him as a, as a true top guy. How do you, how do you feel about the fact that Storm, Sword of Athena and Ricochet rejuvenated in AEW, but Penta's kind of benefited in a way that you wouldn't have expected. Although certainly the, the Alliance buying AAA and being, being in that environment, I think opened, executives and creative minds in WWE that, whoa, we got something here that other people who were a fan of Penta for years had been advocating could be possible anywhere.

1:44:36 Yeah, I mean, the weird thing is I've known of Penta since the Lucha Underround days. It's still not my favorite version, but I'm going to get my favorite version of that. The Penta Dark, basically, is what it was going under. But yeah, I mean, the... Like, he has massive charisma. I think his English has gotten to the point where now he could cut, again, not a 50-minute skit, but I think he could cut, what would be your traditional WWE style? I'm going to beat you. I'm going to wrestle you. And when he wins, oh, this is what this means to me. So I think he's got that nailed. And I think that, you know, the fact that he's, he did what he did with Roman. I think that did open, open people's eyes. Cause I think

1:45:22 when you, when you, when you go to bat for the lucha doors a lot and you know, you, you had, um, uh, Dragon Lee, which was, you know, uh, you know, was proclaimed, which is why I liked the idea that he's turning, he's a hill turn heel that was proclaimed by Ray Mysterio. He's the next Ray Mysterio, you know, he's the future lucha.

1:45:39 And that was like, you know, went over like a wet fart basically. Um, it, it just, they've just had bad luck maybe because they don't really, you know, maybe they just see like, it's the, the lucha doors, like a character class and you just really need one or two on your, on your thing. And they're interchangeable because you don't can't see their face. Um, you know, I think that might be part of the, the overall idea when you're not running like a, a pure lucha, uh, promotion. Um, but yeah, I, I think that now that they've gotten, he's gotten a shot, he doesn't like, cause I mean, like we kind of joked about it, that, that it's hard sometimes to tell Dragon Lee and Ray Phoenix apart. Um, uh,

1:46:24 you know, um, you know, cause, and like, but Penta stands out and I think that get, you know, he's gotten the chance. I think he is one of those guys that can be like a top of, you know, he could, he could be a champ, you know, the overall champion in a way, the way like Shinsuke was. um you know uh for like a different kind of flavor what's going up on there.

1:46:45 I don't think he i don't think he will be but i i rule it out less than i used to if that you know i'm i'm i'm it's still you know.

1:46:53 Yeah i mean he's not i don't i don't have him i i don't have him on the like rolodex of the guys that should be on there forever uh but you know injuries happen and stuff you know stuff sometimes stuff is out of control uh you know and and it just makes sense for it um you know, like Kofi winning the title, that kind of thing.

1:47:14 I wouldn't, I would not take five to one odds on, on him winning a world title, but I'm yeah. But I might take 10 to one. Am I getting that right? Or am I getting it backwards?

1:47:29 Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't know how that works out. We're going to have to ask the experts.

1:47:33 Okay.

1:47:33 If I, if I'm going to risk a hundred dollars, I need to win a thousand. I won't risk a hundred dollars to win five hundred. on him becoming world champ in the next year.

1:47:42 Yeah. Yeah.

1:47:43 Well, that's kind of where I am.

1:47:44 Not necessarily, not necessarily, but next year, but like within a certain period.

1:47:48 Of time, I think this is the hottest he's going to be though in the next year. I think he, he kind of levels into a nice spot, but there's something about the momentum. Now, I don't know. I'm, you might be right. I'm just, my thinking is, It seems like it would be in the next year more than it would be two years from now, especially at his age.

1:48:03 My mentality is the fact that they're happy with what he did and they're willing to give him a push. And the fact that they've continued with L.A. Knight, which I thought, you know, he's not in the plans. They would have come eight a long time ago. And the fact that there seems to be continuing with Javon Evans, which I thought was just going to be. a thing for the match. I think that there would be a little bit more interested. And I think that they'll want him to be strong in the WWE because I think that they want to build the AAA around him. which that was going to be one of the things I was thinking because I don't know what the wording on the contract is because I think that if anything he

1:48:39 might end up cashing in AAA you know, if they move to that, because I feel something's percolating among him, his brother, Dragon Lee's going to turn. I would be surprised if they end up running like a big storyline in AAA with a lot of the luchadors, maybe like, you know, Rey Mysterio's last run kind of thing. And then he ends up being the champion when that, when everything, when the dust settles over there. And you will see parts of that on Raw. We'll see developments of that on Raw, but it's probably going to be like a AAA thing.

1:49:15 You pointed out a few minutes ago that Penta stands out, whereas Rey Fenix and Dragon Lee are more interchangeable and go back to Sin Cara and all the attempts WWE's had to try to create, quote, the next Rey Mysterio. WCW didn't have that problem. You know, they had Ray, they had Hoovy, they had Penta, like, or La Parca, excuse me. And they all were distinct. I think Penta's more along the lines of La Parca, but with, you know, more cred. I mean, obviously, but he just, you're like, he's distinct. You know, there's something about the charisma, the body language. the facial expressions through the mask that jumps out. Um, but it doesn't, my point is it doesn't have to be interchangeable, but you need different body types, different ring styles,

1:49:54 and you just need to have some that, that as Conan told me decades ago, that angel, that, that, that aura that just separates you from the crowd. That's intangible. It's, you can't create it. You can't really even describe it, but it's there. And when you have, as Conan said, the angel, um, People notice and Penta has it, you know, in a main event way. And that's why people were frustrated with how he's pushing AEW and are celebrating now.

1:50:22 I don't see him as a centerpiece week-to-week guy at the world title level, given what WWE has to work with, if we look at the reality of what that would have to displace. Although, like you said, there's injuries, you can have a Kofi thing, whatever, and it would be a Kofi-type thing, and that's where I think it would be more down the line.

1:50:38 And he wouldn't be your number one champion. He would be the champion of the other brand. That's not as important. So, yeah, I wouldn't say he would be the Roman Reigns, build the promotion around, but he would be your other champion.

1:50:49 Well, and if Penta were to win a title, and then Braun Breaker, I'm just trying to think of the brand alignment, like that matters, and then Braun just, like, spears him and pins him, you know, does a Lesnar Kofi thing. I mean, people would be mad at breaker for years. And so they could do something like that.

1:51:07 Hey everyone, Greg parks here.

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1:52:09 All right. Another super chat from Derek. I'm sorry, I know Big Cass is a heel and is portraying a bully, but the vitriol from the commentary toward him, like he had kidnapped Solo or run over Jacob, but Tesla's pretty calm with 946, is odd. cavante smalls added speaking of big cast tonight good grief that match sucked the life out of the show he needs something quickly because it wasn't great um what'd you think of the ray big cast match i thought i don't i didn't my thoughts weren't what cavantes were i thought ray was playing a spirited underdog and cast was you know kind of methodically dismantling him and anytime ray made a comeback or had a um you know teased to come back had a hope spot Cass thwarted it. But in the end, you know,

1:52:50 Ray won and now Cass has his built up frustration. Graves was very hard on him on commentary. There's some, you know, personal stuff there, but I don't think he needed to add. Not only is that how bullies work, but he's not only is a bully, but he's not the brightest star in the sky either. That's like, I don't know if we need to be picking on Cass's intellect.

1:53:11 I don't think that's really germane to his character that he's a, you know, blockhead. um so that felt maybe potentially a little personal anyway those are my thoughts how about yours.

1:53:21 You're you're right that kind of felt like because i i think the idea was that oh he's picking up on picking on ray on ray mysterio and i'm like i mean ray mysterio is like quick question has he wrestled as a hall of famer longer than he has not because it feels that way at this point Um, you know, so yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I thought the match was fine for what it was. The thing is like, I mean, I hate to say this, but it kind of felt Mysterio was a bit on the slow side. Um, it's the first time I've actually really noticed that. I mean, he is 63. Yeah, I know.

1:53:57 No, he's not 63.

1:53:58 Yeah, I know. But, but, but, you know, but I mean, he, and he's got mileage, you know, the fact that he moves like he does with the mileage he's got is amazing. Um, but like, this is the first time I noticed it, you know, um, And because otherwise they've had it and he was the one who was doing the movement in the match. But I thought the match was smart in the way that he was trying to chop him down.

1:54:22 I kind of wish they didn't go back to the chopping down the big redwood cliche. I'm tired of that one. But, you know, I thought, you know, the 619 to the legs was great, you know, to slow him down. So I thought it was well put together, like this is the veteran doing this. And yes, he's lost a step, but he's made up with it with his veteran smarts. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was fine. I mean, it's not like I've run out and it's a means to an end, the match was. But yeah, I mean, I thought it was fine.

1:54:56 Jane Hartford says, Graves is great on commentary. I wish he was a clear face or heel. As a heel, he reminds me of Heenan. I think Corey Graves channels different color commentators. He can channel many of them, but he needs to have a constitution. that's consistent in how we judge the situations and not what's convenient for the story. Yeah. Yeah.

1:55:16 That's exactly, you nailed it. I think that's, that's my biggest problem with Graves is that he doesn't, he's, he's when, when he commentates, he's commentating based on what the story is, as opposed to like working himself into the story as a commentator. So he's talking about the story without like being a character of the story himself and being, you know, like keeping, you know, basically like, you know, keeping the same opinion if when something likely, you know, similar happens, you know, like, you know, I want him to be like Hina where Hina was like over the top sometimes, you know, like, you know, heel, you know, kind of thing, but there were stuff where he would say, oh yeah, this has gone too far, particularly when Hogan turned heel,

1:56:02 you know, and with the whole NWO thing. I think that's kind of the problem with, I mean, not the problem, that's exaggerating, but that's like the one thing about Graves is that sometimes he'll put the story over like who he is.

1:56:16 Yeah, yeah.

1:56:17 All right, so some issues in the chat with us saying Penta will never be world champ or Penta won't be world champ in the next year. So the question is from Crofton, does Penta fail in his cash-in? I think there's scenarios where he does. Others are speculating he wins the AAA world title, the mega championship instead. So if we take into account, which we have to, money in the bank and the ramifications of him not succeeding at a cash-in or not cashing in on one of the two world champions, because he said, I will be a world champion. I don't know if the mega title count says that he didn't say the world champion or the WWE champion. It was a generic term, but I don't know that we should read a ton of Dependa's

1:57:05 choice of words either necessarily with English as a second language or third. I don't know. Maybe he's, maybe it's his fourth. Maybe he's fluent to German and Italian too. Honestly, I don't know, but it's not his first language. So yeah. Javier, your thoughts on that aspect of this a little bit more.

1:57:18 Yeah. I think that because it, does two things. Number one, it keeps the brotes, you know, every year, you know, we're going to be doing the cash-in thing. Well, surprise, he's doing this over on AAA.

1:57:34 Right.

1:57:36 You know, and he could even call it out. And for their next triple money, he could actually say, I want whoever the champion is. Because we also haven't had someone who actually, you know, calls a shot in quite a while. So could you even do that? And what's the.

1:57:55 I'll throw a few more chats up.

1:57:58 The other possibility is it seems like he's going to feud with Brown Breaker that maybe that the case goes on, gets put on the line and he loses the case to Brown Breaker.

1:58:12 Or he cashes in and Breaker spears him and then Penta gets pinned.

1:58:18 The thing is, I think that the women's, the reason I don't think that is because I think the women's the ones going to be able to fail cashing. They haven't failed yet. And I can see.

1:58:26 Failing both. Let's bring these percentages down. Too high.

1:58:32 All right.

1:58:32 So a few other chat comments here. Eric Moy says they need to keep Penta in high profile feuds. Derek Mitchell says, I hope Penta doesn't end up being AAA mega champion. Rude Dog says Penta cashing in at AAA would be so anticlimactic. He could cash in on Sammy. Yes, I agree. Standard Aviation says Penta could hold down the fort as a face of AAA. Even if he fails his cash in, he doesn't need the world title to be credible in Mexico. Crofton says, no, not Sammy. Rumor has it Penta is ride or die. uh tj will places if penta cashed in at triple a they need to let money in the bank die for like two plus years afterwards talk about defining down your prize well that's not defining it down if that's penta's home base

1:59:12 and and i mean there's if there's a story that's deeply personal to him that i don't think it would seem like he's you know defining down the prize it is his home base we saw that with roman Um, but Derek Mitchell says, I hope like how Penta doesn't cash in and AAA, it'd be very anticlimactic. Eric Moy says, yeah, Penta should stay mainly on the main roster. He feels too big for AAA now. AAA is doing just fine without him too. Sadler version three says if WWE had a PLA in Mexico next year, it'd be great opportunity to have Penta cash in and win the championship there. Javier, he could call it ahead of time too, if he did that. uh crofton says i like the triple a theory javier pitched because penta lost to roman and going

1:59:54 after sam it seemed like he's admitting he can't beat roman hmm interesting uh let's see uh daring mitchell says the last time money the bank case was on the line was edge beating mr kennedy who put it on the line uh sadler says i lean no on penta never winning the belt if he didn't win money in the bank the case basically confirms he'll get a top title accidentally Crofton said, I did laugh at how Penta did his catchphrase after saying he was going to cash in.

2:00:20 It translates to zero fear. So he has no fear about using the case to cash in on a vulnerable champion. Yeah, I mean, there is that. Rude Dog says, Penta cashing in for AAA would be lamer than Austin Theory's cash in for a WWE secondary title. Derek says, maybe Penta can challenge Chelsea and reignite their feud in Lucha Underground. Yeah, and Standard Deviation says, yeah, the AAA title would at least be better than the U.S. title. Sorry, Austin Theory.

2:00:51 All right, Javier, anything else at all on that or anything else? Otherwise, we'll sign off.

2:00:56 I'm pretty sure that's it.

2:00:57 Cool.

2:00:58 All right.

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