AEW DYNAMITE POST-SHOW (10/14): Keller & Kline discuss Copeland's retirement announcement, Clockwork Carnage build, FTR-MCMG Best of Five

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1:36 Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade.

1:39 Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. It's time to talk this week's AEW Dynamite. All right. A number of news items coming out of tonight's dynamite. We are live streaming during the third hour of the collision portion, as is tradition on Wednesday nights. So we're not up too late on a on a Wednesday night. And typically, Tony Khan books the first two hours with all the really relevant stuff and then. Um, there's really not a lot left over a little bit more here with the qualifying matches, uh, in the third hour. So we keep, we'll keep an eye on the, uh, on the screen on collision, but a number of things to talk about rather than talk about an angle related to WrestleDream specifically, I want to cover, uh,

2:24 first Adam Copeland making the announcement that he, uh, will retire in 2027 at some point next year. Uh, he'll get, you know, uh, John Cena-esque year, hopefully not quite as heavy, uh, Um, he's not the star Cena was, but, um, but still a big enough name. And he also noted, uh, announced that, uh, Christian cage and there's a lot going on. So they didn't talk about it the last couple of weeks, but he suffered three broken ribs, included one broken three places.

2:52 And that's what made him think about, Oh, and it collapsed long too. Don't want to leave that out. That's hardly a little, uh, you know, that that's something that's significant too. So he said that, uh, it made him think about, you know, getting older. He said, he's kind of aging out. So there's no shame in that happens to everybody. but that made him realize 2027 should be his last year and will be, and that he wants to win the world title. So, you know, Adam Copeland edge, huge, you know, had a huge career with a big gap.

3:18 came back, has had a nice run in AEW. Crowds love singing his song. Dennis, what do you think of that announcement? Is it drawing undue attention to somebody whose better days are behind him and it's going to drag AEW down, now having to focus on some guy in his 50s retiring? Or is this kind of a cool thing that AEW is going to give him a full-fledged proper send-off and it could be a fun journey to follow him on, especially knowing it's the end of him as a wrestler, period. But in a top singles run, if they follow up on that comment that he wants to be world champion.

3:49 Right. I think I'm kind of in the middle where you said John Cena and I, and I always think of staying of course, in the way that what they did was staying.

3:55 So I'm kind of in the middle. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that.

4:00 If it's kind of interesting that, you know, his friend getting hurt, like put the levity of, of what his career should be rather than breaking his leg when he jumped off the top of a cage, but you know, to each his own. But I think it's a, It's going to be interesting to see if they actually follow up on it or if this is a Jeff Jarrett special and we never hear about it again.

4:16 I doubt that.

4:18 I think he'll get a little bit more love than Jarrett did. But I think it would be good.

4:27 I don't know.

4:28 AEW seems to know what they do, what they're doing when it comes to stuff like this.

4:32 I'm sure he's talked it over with Tony Khan.

4:33 I would assume that they have a year planned out or at least six months planned out.

4:39 So I think it could be good.

4:43 Yeah. Yeah. I'm it, this could go either way, you know what I mean? And you brought up the Jeff Jarrett memory. Um, and you know, that was, you know, it was the wrong timing. It felt almost kind of delusional. Um, he just isn't the type of wrestler in a W as much as he got a lot of TV time and there's things he brought to a W ring that I think a lot of wrestlers could have learned from, but yeah, we didn't, it didn't, it was getting more attention and, than it needed. And I think that fans were enthusiastic about it. And, you know, to their credit, they just kind of, I don't know how it came about, but they kind of realized that and moved away from it being too big of a deal. But as far as Copeland goes, I thought it was a heartfelt promo.

5:23 You know, there is something about Copeland when he talks to the fans. Sometimes it can be a little much. It's sort of like for your consideration for the Emmys is sometimes how his promos come across. when, you know, it's like, this is, this is, and the thing, the reason I bring that up, I don't know how, yeah, it's like, that used to be a thing where actors would want a scene in a TV show. There'd be a special episode and you would, and as a viewer or as a TV critic, you'd be like, ah, this is the one the actor wanted so that they could submit that clip to people who don't watch the TV show, but decide who gets an Emmy. And this is their big moment where they're crying or they're freaking out or whatever.

6:02 Edge just, Copeland just did that like two out of three promos. It felt like some, for some stretches of time. This was where that tendency to go that direction actually worked because he was talking about a big deal. His buddy, it's been a heavy two weeks. His buddy, Christian Cage, out with an injury and he's announcing his retirement. I thought he hit the right tone and he's still been good enough in the ring and the crowds are into him, you know, singing a song and stuff. So I'm on the optimistic side and I think it's better than just kind of like floating and meandering at this stage of his career. You know, you want to have a sense of purpose, an end point. And then, you know, there will be a, you know, people trying to get in

6:40 the way and stop that from happening. So it is a story where it's not just like, OK, there's an end date. People are going to try to end his career early also. So all in all, yeah, I thought it worked. And I think that Don Callis was a good person to play off of him with his army of people who might try to stop him first.

7:01 Of course, of course.

7:02 And then I think the fact that we did the tag teams, everything is out of the way with that. They got the dream match with the Bucks and FTR and all of that. I feel it is, and he wants to do the single stuff. He didn't, you know, it felt like he didn't, he was not forced into doing the tag stuff, but it definitely worked like that.

7:19 He did the tag stuff for a little while. And I think, that they you know i think again i really think that this is going to be something that they plot out that they do a really really good job it's going to be who who is the bumps along the way who's the ones that are trying to stop him from getting there and um yeah i think it's going to be good but i hope it's optimistically good so yeah.

7:39 Yeah yeah uh derek mitchell in the chat says thanks dennis i was thinking the same thing with jeff jarrett uh yeah and uh gilbert just says i feel Gilbert Arbala says, I felt terrible for Cage. And I'm like, what happened to Brian Cage? Did he get hurt again? And that's why I don't like... Call him Christian. Nobody thinks of Christian as Cage. Don't mean to be down on you, Gilbert, but there's just too many people walking around with the same last names. Unless we're going to start calling Brian Cage Machine or something. I spent like a minute going, did Brian Cage get injured and I missed it? It's like, no, he's Christian. Everybody knows him as Christian. So anyway, my little sidebar. rant over. This

8:17 is where I agree with Vince McMahon. There's just too many people hanging out with the same last names in AEW.

8:25 And first names. It used to be Page, Cage, all of everything. They rhymed.

8:30 Adam Cole, Adam Page, yeah.

8:34 Adam Copeland?

8:34 Yeah.

8:35 Alright.

8:36 Alright. So, yeah, I feel bad for Cajun. By the way, speaking of Christian, I am expecting him when he comes back. He'll be broken. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:46 Just sucks.

8:48 No, totally. When he comes back, I'm kind of looking forward to whether he goes, oh, I wanted to retire in 2020. Now you're stealing my thing. I don't know. I think he'll have fun with this because one of the good things I thought, one of the good aspects of Christian's time turning baby face in essence is he didn't drop everything that made him so entertaining as a heel before the turn. And so I could see him in, in a, either a, uh, a playful way or a more serious way. You know, I, I would expect there to be one more, um, one more. match between them feud between them.

9:27 Definitely i mean definitely yeah definitely definitely yeah yeah it has to it has to i mean it doesn't have to be a rebel or anything like that but it has to happen i think on the way out maybe that's the last match before his world title title shot something like that yeah i just think it it has to be yeah it writes itself so.

9:45 Yeah there's a lot of ways i can play that we'll see how it goes but i'm with you that they kind of did what they needed to do with the tag team division so it's time yeah all right well let's let's pause introduce ourselves quickly here and then we'll move on to uh some other comments uh or other uh analyzing other segments on the show and looking at wrestle dream this saturday did you know that you can enjoy commercial free versions of all of your favorite wade keller podcasts and pw torch daily casts on spotify just go to patreon.com search pw torch and subscribe to a vip membership tier you get a seven day free trial by the way to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service and then sync

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10:58 Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Wednesday, October 14th, 2026. I'm Wade Keller, host of the show, editor, publisher, and founder of the weekly Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter. Latest copy has a cover story on AEW celebrating POC with a wonderful tribute show and lots of good stuff in there. So go go VIP to read the PDF or alt text version of it.

11:25 Or you can also subscribe to the paper copy and have a reason to look forward to going mailbox. PWTorchVIPinfo.com gives you all the details on going VIP, all the different platforms and tiers and all the benefits. Again, that's PWTorchVIPinfo.com. That includes our VIP forum where you can interact with other VIP members on a message board with real people.

11:45 Validated as real people. There's no bots. There's a strict code of conduct. We don't have trolls and toxic exchanges or anything like that. Just a fun place to hang out with other people who share your passion and talk pro wrestling and other topics. We also have our ad-free website, our podcast feed full of current content along with flashback content.

12:05 So yeah, check it out. You guys know all about that. And an ad-free website, mobile and desktop. all right uh dennis klein is my co-host tonight dennis welcome to the co-host chair when i host chair usually we don't get to see the chair everyone gets to see the chair when you're on.

12:19 Yeah yeah definitely the chair and then the tarot card it's uh it's it's the lover's tarot card i asked the last the one time you asked about it and my wife was like if you should know what this is and i'm like okay i will remember next time yeah that's awesome so yeah good times.

12:33 And it your, your t-shirt blends in with the chair. So you just kind of look like a big blob with a floating head, which is kind of, kind of fun. Yeah.

12:42 So you can't see that. You can't see the purple Ravens written across my chest, you know?

12:45 Yeah.

12:46 I can, I can see that part. Yeah.

12:47 Let's go Ravens.

12:49 What's their, what's their record.

12:50 I believe four and one.

12:52 That's good.

12:53 Yeah.

12:54 It's not, it's not, it's not as good as the other purple NFL team.

12:59 Yeah.

12:59 It's not, it's not enough, but it's okay.

13:01 Yeah. That's good though.

13:03 Yeah.

13:04 All right. No, no. Ravens are almost always really good.

13:09 Yeah, we're spoiled with the Ravens, and we're a football town with a baseball problem.

13:14 So the Orioles are just, yeah, the Orioles.

13:17 Yeah, yeah. All right.

13:21 Well, as I said, we're live as we kind of keep an eye on collision. We've got Ricochet hitting some nice moves here in the ring in the background, which is typical what you expect. So we'll kind of keep an eye on the results of that. Joshua White is covering the show at PW Torch, our website, the written report.

13:37 I covered the first two hours, so you can see what I had to say about Dynamite or catch up on what happened, if you missed it, at PW Torch, the two-hour Dynamite portion and then the one-hour Collision portion, which Joshua White's updating right now. If you're joining us while watching the Collision portion, the third hour, welcome. You can participate in the chat and interact with us as the show progresses. And you can also email us if that's easier for you. You don't have to email us during the show. You can email us before we go live, especially if you can't watch us live. The email is wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com. And you can also be a caller on camera or turn your camera off and be an

14:11 audio-only caller. The link to that changes every show. You can find it in the aforementioned TV report covering Dynamite.

14:18 All right.

14:19 Oh, Dennis, tell people about your contributions to PWTorch. Oh, yeah.

14:24 Okay.

14:24 Yeah, no, I read the Rising and Fading Stars column on PWTorch.com. Yeah, just goes over some fun stuff with who I think is doing well on television, who I think is not doing well. Sometimes it can be what's going on on television. Sometimes it can just be kind of bad luck. Like who's on my Fading Stars this week is poor Jay White, who's injured yet again.

14:44 I don't know, man.

14:46 I just, maybe he, I don't know. Sometimes players have to leave teams. to become, you know, and then to get better. And maybe he needs to leave AEW. And, you know, I would love for him to be healthy in AEW, but there's something up that he cannot get healthy and stay healthy. I don't think it was like this when he was in New Japan. It doesn't feel like it was. So, yeah, it's very strange. But, yeah, there was one thing I wanted to tell you about off the beaten path thing that I found. Did you hear about Baron Ron Rasky wrestling this past weekend?

15:17 No.

15:19 So... He was at some, like it was called a wrestling company called Dreamwave. They had him there for autograph signings, and then they ran some sort of like gauntlet match, and they had him come in at number 10, and he put the claw on somebody and then eliminated two people in one. So, yeah. I thought that was pretty interesting because 86, I mean, he was from the AWA days, right?

15:39 I believe.

15:40 He wrestled. He defeated Big John Studd in a Loser Leaves Town match on the first wrestling event I ever attended. in 1981 and uh what he was one of my earliest memories in the late late 70s when i first as a little kid started watching he scared me his promos were like immersive and believable and uh i have a faint recollection of him leaving for a while and then i think mad dog with sean got injured and then baron came back and said mad dog called me and asked me to come back or you know brought me back to fill in for him and and uh and oh i was just spooked as a kid and so I wish when I met him, he was more delightful.

16:18 He was not, not the most pleasant person to meet. Uh, um, like 10 years ago at some of the wrestling conventions I was at, um, seemed a little old school or cold. And I I've been warned about that. It doesn't mean he's not nice to his people. He people, he likes friends and family, but, um, a little bit, uh, yeah, a little bit cold, but it doesn't matter. I mean, he was, uh, amazing to watch as a kid. And yeah, that went after he beat big John stud back in those days, you could like run. There weren't like, um, barricades where the wrestlers came through. The AWA wrestlers were just wild and proud. And so I ran up to Big John Studd and he was sobbing. He was sobbing because he lost in the Leaf Town. And that's when

16:56 I believed all the guys at my mom's work who were telling her that wrestling was fake. They couldn't be because John Studd wouldn't be crying if it was fake. He was really sad he lost. Of course, of course. Yeah, so it was fun to wipe away the skepticism. But yeah, Baron was a real mainstay in my early AWA years.

17:16 That's what I thought. And it wasn't for his first match in 30 years.

17:18 So he hasn't done anything like in the ring since 96, which he was, he would have been what?

17:23 56 at that point.

17:24 So, yeah. Uh, yeah, he was, he was, he still looks 56. He looked 56 in 1981 when he was like, you know, 30. Um, he always, he always joke about it. He just perpet, he forever 56 actually. I, yeah, maybe forever 59. I don't know. Um, yeah, he always, I mean, I mean, something about him.

17:42 Yeah. There were, they, uh, Wrestling figures became a thing when I was a kid a lot. So, you know, I grew up with the big rubber ones.

17:47 But I also.

17:48 Remember getting a set of the AWA ones at, like, a yard sale when I was a kid. So I had a Baron Von Raschke, like, you know, in his hand. Everyone else's hands were, like, straight out. And his was in the claw, of course. You know, so it was pretty cool. It was pretty neat looking.

18:02 Yeah.

18:03 Awesome. It was fun.

18:05 Yeah. All right. Good memories.

18:06 Yeah.

18:06 Yeah. Awesome. That's fun. I'm surprised I didn't hear about that.

18:10 Okay.

18:11 Let's see. Topic number two, we are going to get a best of five series with FDR in the Motor City Machine Guns, which I'm there for that.

18:22 Absolutely.

18:22 I hope when the Machine Guns came out. Oh, by the way, the Machine Brian Cage and the Machine Guns. We just can't win, can we?

18:30 No.

18:31 Yes. So, yeah, the Machine Guns came out to like what seemed like no reaction from the crowd.

18:36 Right, right.

18:38 And so they got to do something to build them up a little bit if they're going to make a big deal out of this. So that bummed me out. I think I probably bummed out Saban and Shelly, too, that they didn't get a little bit better of a reaction. That said, I'm stoked for the idea of FTR and the Guns having a best-of-five series starting at WrestleDream. Sean Radican texted me, PLU Torch columnist. He said, Wade, Tony doesn't usually do those things where he teases a match and then doesn't do it, where the crowd gets upset.

19:03 And I just replied, well, it is Cleveland. Oof. Yeah. I mean, you stole their football team.

19:13 So, well, Hey, Hey, you know, ours was stolen though, too. And it's sort of, sort of, you know, the Mayflower trucks arriving out in the middle of the night. I don't know if you know that story about the.

19:20 Colts from here.

19:21 Like it's like whenever we see Mayflower moving trucks, like anyone that knows about that is, is scarred because all it was was Mayflower trucks.

19:28 They, they, they left in the middle of the night.

19:29 When the Colts left. I remember that. I remember that as a kid.

19:31 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

19:33 Yeah.

19:33 So, um, but, oh yeah.

19:36 Nick Wayne is cutting a pro in the middle of the ring right now.

19:39 Yeah.

19:40 A great, a great young punk.

19:42 He is, he is dapper. He is dapper.

19:44 Yeah, no, he's yeah. It's great.

19:46 I really hope that this feud continues to go his way that he's doing with Jericho.

19:51 With Jericho. I want him to... I'm looking forward to watching this when we're not live streaming. But I want him to tone down the facial expressions a bit because he has a real natural heel demeanor that I think can really get heat for years to come for as long as he's a heel. And I know not everybody is thrilled with Jericho feuding with him. Zach Barber in the chat says, as usual, Chris Jericho can't put over the young guy and go away.

20:24 Well, not yet. Not yet.

20:27 Got to give it time. I think it's going to go this way. I thought that the first match, I was mad. I was pretty mad about that in the first match. And then You know, the second one, he got him. And I think now the third one, he can beat him clean, right? That's the hope. Unless Jericho is going to go full on and become what he hated, you know, going on in WCW 30 years ago. When the older guys wouldn't let him go up. Like, is he really going to become that guy?

20:51 So, I don't know. Possibly. Possibly.

20:54 Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts? Well, come join me, Alan Forel, over in the Pro Wrestling Paradise at PWTorchVIP. as we bask on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches and shows from around the world, be it the US, Japan, Europe, or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestling's past in the Paradise 2, and we've done fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series, celebrating the glorious career of Jushin Thunder Liger, and our I Was There When shows, where our guests will join me to talk about a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We love variety, and you can expect lots of it at the Pro Wrestling Paradise. Detailed PWTorch VIP subscription information and a list

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22:02 Yeah, I can't mention Nick Wayne's current character without talking about 1-2-3 Kid, the Lightning Kid. Oh, absolutely. In Global Wrestling. He was so... They're so similar in many ways. Yeah, I agree.

22:17 We were talking about FTR and Minister of Machine Guns.

22:19 That's right.

22:20 I'm very glad that they're doing it, but....

22:24 I thought it was also where they did a couple of WWE type things tonight with, with, uh, with, with the pulling the mat, like saying we're going to do the match and then not doing the match. And then, um, Davis pinning mocks is very, you know, right before the pay-per-view when they have a match is pretty much the, like a WWE formula prior to the, to pay-per-views or used to be.

22:43 So, yeah.

22:44 Um, but I do, I do think that this is, this is going to finally, finally set a murder city machine guns up to, to do something.

22:51 I actually wrote that down that they finally have something to do.

22:53 But I think that they were when they got signed, they got signed at a weird time and they shouldn't have debuted when they did because they were their band was on tour at the time.

23:01 So it was weird. It was weird when they signed.

23:03 Them and then they put them right on television and then they took them away for what, two months.

23:07 And now they're finally back. But I think it's good.

23:10 Yeah.

23:10 Yeah. I have mixed feeling. I think the guns shouldn't have been. they should have saved them to debut in AW for when, like this moment, I would just have them come out here. I think they would have gotten a pop, but to have them come back and then just sort of be put on the shelf. It's like they got sent down to the minors or scratched. If you're using NHL comments, like, Oh, they're not, you know, they had other things they want to get done. The TLC match among them at which Adam Copeland called it a tables, ladders, shares match. And then I'm sure the legal team's already like, Oh no. So I wish they had waited to introduce them. So they had a moment that was, to themselves and people would be like, you know,

23:48 it would have been, oh my God, this is awesome, whatever. And instead it's kind of like they came around and weren't around and it made it seem, it diminished them. I think it defined them down a bit and took away some of the impact that they could have had. So anyway, I mean, there wasn't, this seemed to be a master plan for them at the beginning.

24:04 No, no, they debuted them on Collision.

24:05 So I mean, really all it was is they happened to be in Detroit. They were in Detroit that weekend. And I think that that was what they did it for. And then they went away and then they came back. When was that? I can't remember. There was like a promo or something that they came back for. Oh, it was at All In is when they came back out and they walked down the ramp. And then we haven't seen them since then either, I don't think. So just weird.

24:29 Just weird start to it. But I think that these matches could be great.

24:34 I think they are likely to be great unless, you know, if all four guys are on their game and not aging out, as Adam Copeland said, and I haven't seen signs of that. It should be really good. Derek Mitchell comments in the chat, I don't mind FTR versus most city machine guns, but they continue the trend of non-reactions from the crowd. Saban saying, AW is the best tag division ever. Well, I know he's selling the division, but I don't think so. Is the division strong enough right now to say that? Young Bucks, Copeland and Christian, FTR, the most city machine guns. I mean, there is depth, right?

25:11 Thank you. Yes, for sure. The new level. There is depth and right now novelty, especially because of new level being added and the guns also to a certain extent. So does that sound like, come on, you're losing credibility when you say that? Or do you look around at new level bucks, FTR, et cetera, and go, no, this works.

25:31 Brody King and Bondino too.

25:33 Yeah.

25:36 Has there ever been this well-established?

25:39 I know everyone is at the 80s, the hearken back to the 80s in WWF or what's going on in NWA or Mid-South as the greatest of all time. But for decorated tag teams, it might not be hyperbole. with the top teams that they have. What they don't have is they don't have the up-and-coming teams yet. They haven't established any ones that are the younger teams, which they should be doing with the guns.

26:05 That's the first one that I think of. But I do think it's not hyperbole.

26:08 I think it is definitely up there. If it's not the best ever, I think it's top three, top five.

26:16 My inclination is it's subjective, but it's not outlandish to say it.

26:20 I mean, this is.

26:22 A good lineup of teams. And, you know, they could heat up some more homegrown teams too if they wanted to and crowd things a bit even more. Although Max Caster isn't around anymore.

26:34 And then did you hear what he did? He said some lines at TNA.

26:39 Yep. Yep.

26:40 Yeah. Rich Fan and I talked about that on the flagship yesterday. And it's just, I mean, the guy just can't help. There just comes a point where it's like, do you want a career? Like, he has, I don't know. I talked about the relationship, but he has, he always had talent. He didn't need to go to those places, but he just didn't, didn't seem to have a filter.

26:58 Didn't kind of was kind of a quirky personality and, and you give him the freedom on the mic and he's, you know, stepped in it a few times. So he apologized, but yeah.

27:09 All right.

27:09 Yeah. It was bad. It was, it wasn't, it just wasn't good. It's he's yeah.

27:13 You give him a live, but I guess that's what you get when you start, when you sign him, a W stop.

27:17 Giving him a live mic for a reason.

27:19 Yes. So, you know, I know.

27:21 Yeah.

27:23 All right. Uh, so yeah. Thumbs up to that. Look forward to that. I think it's a good fresh matchup for FTR. I thought Dax was good on the mic. I thought Stokely was good on the mic. Um, Saban and Shelley were Saban and Shelley. It's always something to hold them back a little bit. Uh, but of course they were okay. You know, they were okay.

27:38 All right.

27:38 So, um, we got a video package explaining the rules to, uh, clockwork carnage and, um, uh, So it's two segments, the gauntlet portion, and then an Ironman portion where we keep score. I would have stopped there with the winner gets something. But instead, they added this element of when the champions, the closing lines for Renee are a champion can lose their title without losing the match, and the champion can win without getting pinned. It was just a little too much at the end, and I didn't think as clear as it needed to be. How do you feel about the format in general? And then how do you feel about that closing line? And the champ can lose the title without getting pinned after noting you can beat a

28:27 champion without winning the match.

28:31 Yeah, yeah.

28:32 So, I mean, I think it's a little convoluted at the line. I understand what they were trying to say. They were trying to say that you can pin the champ during the match and he can lose, you know, but you're not going to win the title. And then, yeah, it was too convoluted. But I do get the gist of the match now. I feel like it, I don't know, it seems a bit much. It seems like it's a little overkill. I understand what they're going for, but why couldn't it just be an elimination match, like in the 15 minutes?

29:00 You know, you could figure out. Rich and I were trying to figure out Rich fan, I were trying to figure out like the champion thing that Tony Khan put on social media and explained. I'm still honestly not sure. I get it.

29:10 I don't.

29:11 I mean, like, because the line is you can beat a champion without winning the match. And then the title without getting pinned. How does the champ lose the title without getting pinned?

29:22 Because he's never pinned throughout the whole 15 minutes. So the 59 golden, when you can be paying, yeah.

29:29 So he can, yeah.

29:29 So he can, he's never lose.

29:30 On points, but you're not involved in the, so it's like a four way or three way.

29:34 Yeah.

29:34 Yeah.

29:35 Yeah. Yeah.

29:35 So that's that. But again, we just, we, we had to figure it out here. And well, and also convoluted.

29:41 Yeah.

29:41 And then she said, you can beat a champion without winning the match. Does that mean you can become champion, but still not have enough points to win the match?

29:49 No, you can beat, you could pin Will Ospreay only get one point and someone else gets two points.

29:54 They win the match.

29:55 Yeah.

29:56 So you beat Will Ospreay, but you didn't win the match.

29:58 What I don't like about that phrasing, and then I'll move on, is I don't think people are thinking, well, if you beat a champion, because there's going to be multiple champions in the match, probably in the Ironman portion, if the rules are clear, it's by points. So why would you say you can beat a champion but not win a match when it's clear? Anybody can beat anybody and get a point. So it made it sound like you can become a champion in the midst of the match without actually winning the match that you're in. And that's what I think Rich... was confused about that too yesterday.

30:29 So it's just, I don't, I don't know. I don't think they needed to say any of that. Honestly, I think it just made it seem like something else is going on. Um, and they could have stuck with, I don't mind the format by the way. Like I don't mind gauntlet. And then if you don't make it, you don't make it to the next phase and the next phase it's.

30:45 I like the beginning for sure.

30:47 Yeah.

30:47 I like the beginning for sure. But I, I would have rather just kept it. I mean, I guess an elimination, I don't know.

30:54 I don't know.

30:54 There's something I don't like about it, but I can't figure out what it is.

30:57 But I think it'll be an exciting match, though.

31:00 I mean, with everybody that's involved.

31:02 And I assume at least one's going to get pinned in that first 24 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever it is.

31:09 Yeah.

31:10 Yeah. As well as matches where maybe you don't put a ton of thought into it. Watch it happen, and then you'll know.

31:16 Yeah.

31:16 And it might be really good.

31:17 Yeah.

31:18 Definitely.

31:20 Rude Dog in the chat says, I can't believe WrestleDream is this weekend. That was a very poor buildup, and I have no idea still what's going on with the format of the championship match. So, No, you're not alone, Rude Dog. By the way, Rich Van and I previewed the entire lineup on the flagship. That's our blue logo show.

31:34 Dropped last night. Encourage everybody to go give that a listen. We talked a lot about a variety of other topics, too. Rich loved TNA Bound for Glory, by the way. He reviewed that near the end of the show. And we also talked a lot about the 946 and the Bloodline and Penta. If you discovered us on YouTube, that is audio only. It's podcast only. So search Wade Keller. in your podcast app of choice, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever app you use, or you can stream it directly from our website. Search Wade Keller to subscribe to The Flagship and give it a listen. The Flagship usually drops on Tuesday night to recover just a wide array of topics. Also, search PW Torch and subscribe to the PW Torch Daily Cast.

32:15 There's a different show each day of the week with a different theme and a different pair of co-hosts, including the All Elite Conversation Club with Greg Kanter and Joel Donnell. that drops on the DailyCast lineup for free. There's also the 90s PastCast, the Wrestling Coast to Coast, PWT Talks NXT, Wrestling Night in America after pay-per-views and PLEs, and more.

32:40 You gave a shout-out to the 90s PastCast. Do you want to give a little plug to that?

32:44 Oh, of course. I love Alex and Patrick.

32:48 I sent them trivia this week, so they'll have my trivia to read this week.

32:52 Only a few questions, but Yeah, they're great. And they're in such a good time right now. I mean, it's 30 years ago. It's 96.

32:58 NWO is three months in. They haven't ruined the NWO just yet. It's good times. It's good listening to them and listening to what you were talking about back then. And, yeah, it's a great show.

33:12 It's great. And they get along so well. And I know.

33:14 You've had such good luck just pairing up people and then working out really well.

33:19 So, yeah, hopefully– If I get out of wrestling analysis and reporting, I'll just be a matchmaker.

33:28 Yeah.

33:28 Yeah, absolutely.

33:29 Not necessarily romantically. Obviously not romantically. Just like friends. You two should hang out together. You guys would hit it off. I know you and I know you, and you two just wouldn't want to talk every week for a couple hours. I can think of business as just putting people together for podcasts in all genres. No, honestly, you bring it up.

33:47 I don't bring it up. But like most, almost all the pairs, almost, not all. were me going, hmm, I know what you're interested in. I know what your interest is. I know your personalities well enough. And I know we want to have a show covering this theme. And then I pitch them to each other. And they end up hitting it off and becoming really good friends. Mike and Andrew back in the day. It's just like on and on. So, yeah, I take pride in that. It's fun.

34:09 Yeah, Tyler and Zach. Yeah.

34:12 Yes.

34:12 So, yeah, it's a whole bunch of people. So, for sure, man.

34:15 Yeah.

34:16 Been going on.

34:17 A long time.

34:18 All right. I cannot take credit for Wrestling Coast to Coast because Chris and Justin have known each other for decades. Yes. The Wrestling Coast to Coast covering the indie scene. Anyway, yeah, so search PWTorch, subscribe to the Daily Cast. And while you're at it, please give a five-star rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts if you subscribe in those areas to both the Red and Blue Logo shows, the Wake Up and Post Show and Podcasts, and also the Daily Cast.

34:42 It really helps. Like, really, thank you if you have done it. And thank you in advance if you will do that for us also. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify. or just about any iOS or Android app with a full VIP membership. You can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash

35:23 govip for full details on all the options to listen commercial-free. And with upper-tier options, unlock our VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. All right. So back to WrestleDream. Do you think... This match is more intriguing than it is confusing to the fan base at the moment.

35:50 Um, I, yeah, I think so.

35:53 I think that the, there's enough stars in it that, that, that it's going to be intriguing. And, um, I, I, I guess adding Darby, you know, what will it will, will make me more intrigued. Cause you know, I'm a huge Darby fan, but, uh, I don't know if it'll make others intrigued, but I think that just who is involved, like, uh, cause just.

36:08 Is it having Okada having to catch, uh, having Will Ospreay.

36:12 Obviously, um, like it, it just, it just brings it like an international flavor to the whole thing.

36:18 And I think that that's good. And I don't know, it's just, it's, it's going to be, it's going to be good. I think, I don't know.

36:24 I don't know.

36:24 It's just, it's a, it's an interesting match and there's, there is a lot of star power in it. And I think that it gives a lot of things to do this pay-per-view. So, yeah.

36:35 I was not a fan of the Will Osprey, uh, speedball, Mike Bailey, Andrade.

36:41 Yeah.

36:41 The, you know, the, the, us united empire i i mean speedball is you know i think um adorably dorky uh you know they're like it's just he leans into it it's fine i mean he's like he's a guy if he came to his house um he'd welcome you in take him to the basement and show you all his karate trophies and then he'd you know make you for you kool-aid or you know a glass of milk or something i mean just like he just you know it's just and that's fine there's room for all kinds of people and he backs it up in the ring and he met his his personality matches the character he plays and the whole karate thing um yeah Will Ospreay is a bit of a goof. But I don't think steering into that is going to help Will Ospreay become

37:22 a top draw. The cool factor in that segment was lower than it ought to be. And I also just add to it, Andrade is leaning too much into that catchphrase. He's too delighted with himself when he says that, and they're leaning on it so hard. He needs to have more of an edge to... his persona and he's losing it because of this gig, which, and then in the match Ospreay, you know, Andrade did it again. And Giovanni goes, he just can't help himself. He's always got to take a selfie. And then Will Ospreay is to kind of ham it up like DX bad dad joke era of Triple H and Shawn Michaels, where it's just like zany humor and facial expressions. And I just, I don't think it's, I don't think it's good for Andrade. And I don't

38:02 think it's good for Ospreay. I don't mind Ospreay playing off of speedball. If he's the straight, like the, the cool guy, uh, with this kind of quirky but nice guy. Like, I don't mind Ospreay coming across as nice, but I don't want him to, like, play into it where he's doing the same thing. And I thought even his promo felt a little... I don't know, scripted and corny. So yeah, I, you've not, what do you think? Yeah.

38:30 No, I would, I would agree.

38:31 Yeah.

38:31 I would agree with all of that.

38:32 Like there's not much to add to that because it, it all is, is, is, is beneath him right now. Like he need, he can't be doing that, especially it is such a one 80 from everything with the death writers just three months ago.

38:44 It does.

38:44 It doesn't work. It doesn't make him more of a star and being goofy.

38:47 Like, again, I agree playing off speedball is one thing, but the thing in the match was just too much. Not to mention, like, you had this United Empire, and Andrade's carrying around this shot at Will Ospreay's title. Like, it's, and they're not even, they're not even mentioning it together. It's just kind of like there, and it's kind of, it's a little, that's also a little strange. So, no, I didn't like, I didn't like any of that, and I'm not a big fan of the Brawling Birds, so adding them to the whole mix is just, all of it is, all of it is just, yeah, not a big fan. Yeah. Yep.

39:18 So we've got Osprey, Speedball, and then Adam Copeland qualified tonight, Tecesta qualified, Okada qualified, Ricochet qualified since we've been on the air, and Samoa Joe too. and then we've got the likely and then the likely Derby qualification coming up in the main event so yeah it's an eclectic mix and I don't really have any predictions for what happens because it feels very you know almost random draw.

39:50 Yeah, I think part of the issue is that I felt this coming out of All In and into All Out. All Out was the first pay-per-view that I really, like, if we were doing thumbs up, thumbs down, would have been kind of in the middle. Potentially thumbs up. It felt that there's too many pay-per-views right now. It feels the turnaround for this pay-per-view is really quick, on top of the fact that, you know, that stuff with Pac happened.

40:13 So there wasn't really, you know, that was just a tribute show. And then there was the, you know, I feel like, what was the next week?

40:20 I know last, last week was, was the, the, basically it's a mini pay-per-view, but they're also, they also feel like house shows when they do the, um, what are they called?

40:28 Oh my goodness.

40:28 It's living. Oh, grand slam. The grand slam ones. Yeah.

40:31 Yeah.

40:31 They're, they're, they're like many, they call them any pay reviews or that's what people seem to think they are. And they, they're more like house shows to me. Like that's what the setup even looks like more like a house show set up.

40:41 So they didn't build up this show at all. It just.

40:43 This pay-per-view has come on really fast. And I think that the whole match is suffering from that as well. That it just kind of had to come on really quickly. And even all the qualifying matches are happening tonight.

40:54 So you don't even know who's really in the match. How can you really build a match? So, yeah.

40:59 Yeah, I was going to lead in Block A, not talking about Copeland, but about how it would have been good if there was one more week. Because we could have all the qualifying matches, and then you have the following week to... like play up, have it sink in with viewers, have them spend a week and a half thinking about it a week before the wrestlers talk about it.

41:18 You can have people who are aligned kind of talking about each and kind of like have a natural sense of, of rivalry between people who are, who are otherwise aligned and, and drill home the rules a little bit more too. I don't want to be too critical of them though, because I do think part of the issue is the timing where they had the show dedicated to, um to to pock and then they had the the you know big kind of house show-esque show on a tuesday where you just we had a story i had the rating story up on pwtorch.com um you know talking about the massive drop-off it's four i think four hundred some thousand viewers i can't remember the exact number uh because of it airing on a tuesday and then they didn't promote

42:00 it on the week before because it was dedicated to pock so it is um it is a bummer but i guess i give them a little bit of a mulligan In the sense that, you know, some things out of their control happened. Derek Mitchell in the chat said, yeah, I think it was a short turnaround from All Out to WrestleDream, especially with the company devoting the show to honor the late Pac. So, yeah, I mean, but it's the price, you know, it's a bit of a price you pay when they're doing essentially monthly pay-per-views now, you know, where there's less. It used to be a really big deal when there was an AW pay-per-view. And now it's like, okay, it's just the thing I do once a month on a Saturday or Sunday.

42:35 Yeah.

42:35 And I mean, I think this year they're going to do 11 and, um, I think that's, that's, that's the most they've ever done. So it's not actually every, every month.

42:42 It was nice.

42:42 If you remember at the end of last year, it was like one in December, but then the next one wasn't until February, like, and it was near the end or something like that.

42:50 So that was a nice stretch.

42:51 This is just a really like from all into here, it just feels like it has, there should not have been a pay-per-view in between all in and this pay-per-view is what it kind of feels like. Cause all, if all in is their big show, their blow off show. how can you not just build up maybe for at least six weeks? But no, again, but this, the turnaround between all out in this is, is obviously there was.

43:13 Extenuating circumstances that we couldn't, you know, nobody could foresee.

43:17 Exactly.

43:18 Yeah.

43:18 Yeah.

43:21 On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when NXT ends. It's just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg, and alongside my co-host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks NXT. We go live on the PWTorch YouTube channel about 15 minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises. And we take your questions and comments from the live chat.

43:38 Miss us live, but you still want to be part of the show? Send your thoughts to PWTorchNXT at gmail.com and catch the replay on YouTube or on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed. Just search PWTorch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And of course, you can always stream the latest shows at PWTorch.com.

43:53 All right. Let's see. I'm going to have to watch the rest of this on HBO Max because my DVR stopped recording and I was watching it on like a two-minute delay on DVR. I'll try to pop it on and keep it going. Anyway, so another comment here, and then we got Johnny waiting as a caller. We'll bring him out of the show in a moment. Derek Mitchell adds, AW's loading up the card, but I hope they avoid another bloated show with 13 matches, especially... with a two out of three falls trails match and the clockwork carnage match taking up so much space. Um, yeah, right now we're at nine matches. I don't think they've announced what, what do they call their pre-show now? Blast, uh, blast off.

44:32 I don't even know.

44:34 Yeah. Cause they don't even, they don't even put it on. Like it's not on YouTube. Cause there's two different pre-shows now. Right. I know it was like the wrestling free show and the talking free show. So I don't even know what they're called. Yeah.

44:43 Yeah. It was weird last time having Renee just like standing there talking, which up Jarrett and, then all of a sudden there's like a bell ringing and crowd reacting and they don't tell you like what's, what's happening there. So, yeah. But anyway, um, so yeah, so far it's not, there's not nine matches. It's fine because yes, uh, uh, two, uh, two out of three fall trails title match and then clockwork carnage should eat up a lot of time. So.

45:06 Yeah.

45:07 Clockwork carnage is going to be 35 minutes. Like, so we already know plus interest is, so that's 50 minutes. Like, so that's, that's the last hour.

45:14 So.

45:15 So we all should know going in, like whenever that match starts, we should just look at the clock and.

45:19 Be like, oh boy, we know when we're going to get.

45:21 Out of here tonight.

45:22 Yep. Rude Dog, by the way, says love the 90s past cast. Want to get that shout out in there. Zach Barber says I'm very intrigued to see how this match plays out. The clockwork carnage match. Derek is happy. It's a Saturday night, not a Sunday night. That's just NFL season. Derek adds, Wade, I completely agree with your take.

45:42 The United Kingdom stable makes the conglomeration look like the Death Riders in comparison. The former comes across as so corny and unrelatable. Zach Barber upset with our comments on Andrade. Mine, Andrade cannot win. The guy's finally over like a rover with a crowd, and yet that's not a good thing because he's too into his catchphrase. Come on, Zach. We've been over this. I want Andrade's over, and he's putting it at risk by not seeming like he is serious about winning and a serious person. And you can lean too much at a shtick and it can wear out its welcome. Look what happened to the acclaimed. You know, it's like scissor me, daddy. And that became the entirety of the entirety of their act. And there was so

46:18 much more potential there. And they just got wrapped up in that and they stagnated. What Andrade is doing is is not it's not what a serious person does. And I want him you should be rooting for him. Um, he's, you know, if you look at the crowd, I was watching the fans behind him when he was doing the selfie tonight and it's like, they're like, Oh, I'm right here for this. And all this is fun. And I think they take that as like validation that this should be working, but what fans enjoy in a moment, it's sort of like giving like. cotton candy and junior mints to little kids for dinner. They're going to eat it and they're going to be happy, but it's not best for them. And like giving fans a fun little like

46:59 moment of, oh, I get to be right here to see this little thing that he does. And I get to say his catchphrase. That's what WWE does way too much of. And AEW falls into seeming like, you know, they're just a derivative of that nonsense. If it's mid-card schtick and you keep it there, you can still argue it should be part of the AW product, but it's better off there. But Andrade is carrying around a title shot opportunity. He is a really good wrestler, and he just shouldn't be doing lower-card schtick. So it's not that Andrade can't win. It's just that when you get a crowd reaction, you can get a crowd reaction for a reason that actually undercuts your ceiling. I think it's defining him down, or it's certainly in danger of doing that.

47:40 As for the Will Ospreay comments with playing off Speedball and Andrade, Rude Dog says, I'm already starting to question Will Ospreay being the top guy in AW. The guy's talented as hell, but he's a little goofy. And I'm not really into his haircut with his headband or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, he made his ring entrance, you know, the music's great, crowd reacts to him, but I was, I was thinking they're starting to lose their chance to define him as the guy of this generation.

48:09 I mean, We talk about the Machine Guns kind of losing their moment by just kind of hovering and just debuting on Collision and just peering and not being on a pay-per-view. I think there's something happening with Ospreay where he is the champ, but he's just a guy with a belt. It's the world belt, but they're not treating him any different now. And there needs to be less of a focus on, oh my God, we have a new concept match, and more of a focus on what does this mean for Will Ospreay, the legacy that Will Ospreay can build up as champion. Is this an early in his reign? Almost everything should go through, how does it affect Will Ospreay? Think about when Steve Austin first got over. Everything was about Stone Cold Steve Austin on

48:50 those Raws. And they're not doing that. They're not in the Will Ospreay business. Will Ospreay is the latest guy to happen to have a title. And I'm worried about that. Yeah, no.

49:03 As you should be. There was no... go-home promo from Will Ospreay.

49:09 I mean, unless you call what that was backstage with the United Empire go-home promo.

49:13 But I don't. There's nothing with that.

49:17 After the match, it just kind of like, kind of just, didn't go to commercial no it went to the guy that is what the de facto top guy in this company went to Jon Moxley backstage like and he you know right at the beginning of collision so and I think that maybe I thought him beating him would help Will Ospreay maybe get out of the shadow a little bit of Moxley and it feels like it just.

49:40 It made everybody a little bit more towards Jon Moxley.

49:43 We were in Moxley's hometown tonight, though, so maybe that had a little bit to do with it. Or not his hometown, but his home state. But yeah, it's weird. It definitely does not feel like he is taking the ball, as they say, and running with it. It feels like he's just kind of like, ooh, he's happy to be here, and he needs to be more serious with the title.

50:01 And the idea is, oh, his matches will be great on pay-per-view, and people are paying to see good matches. But, you know, I want the narrative, I want the machine... of promoting him to make it seem like this is a guy you got to buy an AWD ticket to see in person. This reign, he is special. His, and, and, you know, I don't know.

50:16 It's just, yeah, I can, you can watch matches all the time. So yeah. Yeah.

50:21 You watch good matches all the time. That's, that's, that's the argument now. Like that was the argument when AW started, I got it. It was like, Oh, it's, it's not, it's a good match.

50:28 Good match.

50:29 Good.

50:29 Like it's not that anymore. We don't just, we're not just tuning in for the good matches. You, there is part of the fan base and probably a big part of the fan base that wants the stories as well.

50:38 They want storylines. They don't just want good matches because you want a good match.

50:42 You know, Ricochet versus Ace Austin is probably better than anything that was on Raw 10 years ago.

50:47 Like, it's just, it's not. The bar has to be raised a little bit, I think.

50:53 Yeah, agreed. Zach Barber says, so if they strip Andrade of his catchphrase, his selfie, and his pants removal, what does he have? Don't get me wrong. He's a super talented wrestler, but those are the things that got him over. So as we've talked about, Zach, I'm pretty sure what I would like to see is a selfie be something he does before the match or after he wins, but not during a match. That's my problem with it. I'm fine with him doing it. It should not be in the midst of a match, especially a one-on-one title match.

51:18 If you're defending your title and you lose your focus, I'm sorry, it just becomes a farce of a show and not a simulated sports competition that you should take seriously. The catchphrase is something that he can, I think, more strategically use he should pick his moments to say it, but he should do so in a way. Like with Zach, it's sort of all or nothing. Like if you critique something, you're trashing it and think it should go away, and there's nuance. And I think I'm clear with my criticism of this, but I'll make sure that I reinforce it here.

51:55 I think the catchphrase is fine, but I think he seems, as I said, too delighted with himself when he says it.

52:00 Like, oh.

52:01 this is the thing I'm about to say it. Everybody get ready. I'm a grown man, but I'm like, I'm like the kid who plays peekaboo on the airplane with you. This is going to be fun. I'm going to say my phrase. And it's like, it's, it's undignified. I don't take him seriously when he's so excited about it. It's like, you know, uh, you know, so, um, that's my issue is it seems childish and, um, But I think he can say the catchphrase, but I think he should say it in a more serious way, not where he's just delighted with himself because he has a catchphrase that's over.

52:36 No, I absolutely agree with that. I've had a problem with the catchphrase for a while now. Just the way that he's been building up to it.

52:43 I agree.

52:44 It's much better if they can just work it into a promo. and it feel way more natural rather than the buildup.

52:50 It would be better.

52:51 And I liked the idea of the selfie during the entrance, dude, that's, that's like Bret Hart giving the glasses to a kid, man.

52:56 That's like, that's great. Exactly.

53:02 And you would in the crowd would be all hyped about it. Cause whoever gets to be in the picture kind of thing. Like, no, I think that wouldn't, that would endear him more to the crowd than what he does. Um, and, the pants thing is whatever, like have that, have him do that right at, right. As they're getting ready to ring the bell, have them do it right. As they're getting ready to ring the bell, you know, right before they do it, like the ref points at his pants, you're going to take.

53:22 Them off and he rips them off. And then you get the, the woo. Yeah, whatever. But yeah, I agree.

53:27 There's ways to mitigate or like to switch around and just kind of like tweak what he's doing for it all to work really well.

53:35 And my vote would be to not do the pants thing. Period. I think the selfie.

53:40 Yeah.

53:41 I think it's, I think if he did like twice a year in a certain context, um, that sort of, it came up naturally. Uh, but yeah. Um, anyway, Zach did say, uh, okay, that'll make sense, Wade. So he's, he's good.

53:55 Good.

53:55 I'm glad we were good.

53:56 Good.

53:56 Right there. And he says also, please get him some tearaway pants. So he doesn't get, they don't get stuck.

54:01 Of course.

54:02 Yeah.

54:03 Yeah.

54:03 Uh, Derek Mitchell says, yeah, I'm ready. He's morphing into Tiffany Stratton. Tiffy time. Or if you're not, he's saying indeed.

54:09 Yeah.

54:10 Um, And Derek Mitchell says, and this is not an endorsement of Andrade doing this. Wade, do you remember that Marcus Bagwell used to do the pants gimmick in Global Wrestling Federation as the handsome stranger? I forgot about that, but I totally believe it.

54:24 Oh, man.

54:25 Yeah. Did he have like a little bow tie too? Or was that when he was American Males?

54:29 I don't remember. I think it was more American Males, but he had the mysterious mask, right?

54:33 Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay.

54:36 Yep.

54:36 I remember that.

54:37 Handsome stranger. Yeah. Before pushing play on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows, check out PWTorch.com and our TV review section and skim through a full rundown of the TV show. If you didn't see it, that's your way to get an overview of what happened before you dive into our in-depth analysis of the key happenings on the show.

54:57 That's PWTorch.com, your home for live TV coverage every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with my TV reports. And also check out our NXT and Impact coverage on Tuesdays and Thursdays, our Collision reports on Saturday nights, and of course our live pay-per-view and PLE coverage on weekends all waiting for you at pwtorch.com all right let's bring uh johnny into the program you can be a caller too check out my report at pw torch if you're just joining us uh there's a link at the top and bottom of my dynamite report at pwtorch.com and you can click on that link and join us should work on your phone or your laptop uh johnny welcome good to see you talk to you again it's been a while.

55:33 Hey guys yeah i've been a little while but um kind of excited for WrestleDream and the Clockwork Garnage match I think is going to be fun even if I don't love the concept I think Wade the conversation you and Rich had yesterday kind of brought me around a little bit on it as a concept and made me more excited for it and probably the quality of wrestlers that they've actually put in the match has made me excited for it as well because I think it's what we often ask for of like if you're going to do a match like this put in top quality and when they started with Mike Bailey I was like oh this might not be a great match but the quality's really come around And then as I was watching the show, I was like, well, the quality's there, but all of

56:10 these matches feel predictable, and I would have liked to see one upset, I think, in the mix.

56:15 Right. Yeah, I was thinking, Rich and I were talking about that, and it's just like, I wanted to not manufacture false.

56:25 To just introduce a bit of ability to who's going to be.

56:29 Yeah, well, I was thinking, is there a match here for the sake of podcast conversation where I can go, okay, maybe we can make a case for Ace Austin winning or at just Sarah winning. And I was like, not just for the underdog winning, but also maybe to give the other, the favorite, a reason to be upset or do something else on the card. And I couldn't come up with it. So I didn't do it. Like I'm staring.

56:53 I'm like, can I make a case for one of these qualifying matches? It just was, you know, it's one of the AW things. It is, there's, you know, it's going to go 12 minutes and the guy who you expect to win is going to win and it's going to be competitive. And that's, that's what we got, you know, from, peripherally watching collision. That seems to be what we're in the midst of watching with, uh, at just zero two.

57:10 So yeah. Um, uh, Dennis, what do you think about, uh, having an upset? And if you were going to do it, it doesn't mean it had to be a sauce and winning. It could be somebody else you actually want to see in, uh, no dig on a sauce, but you could have had an underdog who actually be kind of fun to have in the clockwork carnage match that might elevate him. Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know who that would be. I'd have to look at the roster. Dennis.

57:33 Yeah, no, uh, no, I, I think, uh, I actually looked at the whole card and that's what that, that was kind of part of the part of the problem tonight was like, everything felt predictable.

57:41 It felt very just straightforward.

57:43 But if, I mean, if you were going to have an upset, it's probably the one that's going on now would be edges arrow, like beating Darby Darby Darby can sustain a loss. Uh, and then Darby could be in a match just very quickly. If they wanted to throw him in something, there's no reason to, we.

57:56 Have nine matches.

57:57 I'm not advocating for it, but you know, it's possible, but yeah, no, I, uh, But I also think that Darby's star power in the match also helps the match.

58:09 So, you know, it is a step down having Hedges' arrow in there. No offense to Hedges' arrow.

58:13 But, yeah, I think that the star power is what, like Johnny said, is what is drawing about the match. Like the fact that they're doing that is huge. But having an upset tonight would have been nice. But I think that you got that with, you got the O moment with Mox when Davis just pinned him. So I think that was– they went straight talk everywhere.

58:36 Else because I think they were like, oh, I think this will surprise people.

58:39 By the way, Zach Barb is upset with you, Dennis. He goes, hey, Speedball is quality. Or was it you, Johnny? Who said– was it you, Johnny? Oh, sorry. Dennis, I could tell in your face that you weren't the one. I cast those versions the wrong way. Johnny, Speedball is the least– he is in the PWI 500, I am confident, the lowest ranked. Compared to Takeshita, Okada, Ricochet, Copeland, Samoa Joe, and Will Ospreay. I say confidence, but maybe they didn't have Joe as high because he hasn't been as active.

59:10 So I could be wrong on that. But overall, in a five-year average.

59:17 I like Steeple, right? But he would have been a good candidate to be in a matchup this week to get an upset victory to come in. I think people would be excited by that. But given that he was the first, it's kind of like he set the bar for kind of And that just gave the feeling of, oh, this is going to be another one of these multi-man matches with a bunch of not real contenders. And the quality is higher than that. And I think they just framed it incorrectly to get us there.

59:41 Yeah, fair enough.

59:43 But I do want to go to.

59:46 Mark Davis.

59:47 I just really enjoy Mark Davis. He's been a real revelation. I know he kind of got the win tonight to lose on the pay-per-view. But honestly, I would just have him win on the pay-per-view.

59:57 I would too.

1:00:00 He's just doing great. And like, why not give someone like him the ball in the same way that they kind of did with Kyle Fletcher. And like Kyle Fletcher is one of my favorites right now. I would just be doing the same thing with Mark Davis, but I think it's going to just lose to the Moxie special on, on Saturday, which is not a bad spot to be, but I just think it's a great time to try something new.

1:00:20 He's been good enough. Even though, even there's that promo that kind of got people's attention a month or two back. He is, there's enough there. And I like the idea that he's different. He stands out as being really different from most of the pushed wrestlers. I mean, you get, I don't know, the Machine Brian Cage and Lance Archer, they're big, but they're not pushed. Mark, because it just, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure Brian Cage could make an argument why he should get more of a push.

1:00:48 But Archer's, you know, and even Archer could have protected more. But nevertheless, the big guys, Brody King kind of got like little start and stop pushes, little, you know, in the, continental classic situations and such. But Mark Davis, I think, has a higher upside than all of them. I mean, I hesitate to say that with Brody King, but it's more of a compliment to Mark Davis than saying I'm losing faith in Brody being a credible, sustained, top-of-the-second-tier, bottom-of-the-first-year single star who visits main events. I think Davis can do that. He hasn't been defined down as much. Now, we had that intriguing... segment at the kind of after the, uh, the dynamite main event, I guess we'll call it at

1:01:28 the end of the second hour of bleeding into the third, uh, where Mox had a bit of a meltdown, a breakdown. Um, and, uh, Renee, his wife kind of didn't break character, but you kind of were like, Ooh, she's been here before. Maybe, um, you know, what's going on, what hurts. And he goes everything. And then he, uh, Marina Shafir kneeled down and gave him a pep talk and said, the only way to get over this is to go through it. I think it was the phrase roughly. And then Mox was kind of like, okay, that's what I needed to hear. So they're either setting up Moxley to lose and really break down, or the pep talk from Shafir is going to be enough to give him kind of a new direction and a new course. Dennis, what do you think of that?

1:02:13 No, I think it's totally possible.

1:02:15 I think Mox has had issues with certain wrestlers before. You know, he had the Kyle O'Reilly issue. Kyle O'Reilly just kind of beat him. Why can't Davis be that wrestler as well? I think that Davis is, like you said, Davis has not been defined down the way Brody King has within the singles realm. So I think that that definitely, him winning would be huge also for Davis. And I think Davis has had a great 2026 so far. It's really been impressive. And just that his finisher is just, it's nasty. I'm glad that Mox didn't kick out. I thought he was going to, but I was really glad he didn't because that finisher needs to be protected.

1:02:51 It looks punishing. So I love it.

1:02:54 Yeah.

1:02:55 We talk about tag teams, too. Davis and Doyle. You know, we talk about tag team depth. They could.

1:03:00 Yeah.

1:03:00 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:03:01 Definitely.

1:03:02 Yeah. Johnny dropped off. I don't think I did that. I think we just lost the connection. Oh. So, yeah.

1:03:11 He's on the other side of the world, right?

1:03:13 Yeah.

1:03:13 Well, at least he has an accent that makes it seem like he is. Yeah.

1:03:18 I'm not sure.

1:03:19 We got a cat on a lap. It's always a good podcast when a cat shows up.

1:03:22 Yes.

1:03:23 This is Luna. This is Luna.

1:03:24 Yeah.

1:03:24 She's a, my wife got her for her birthday this year. So she's a lift her up.

1:03:29 I want to see her.

1:03:30 There she is.

1:03:31 There she is. Yeah.

1:03:32 She's a little cutie. Definitely a little cutie. Yeah. She didn't like that.

1:03:36 Yeah.

1:03:37 She was a, she's very, very sweet. Very sweet girl.

1:03:40 Yeah.

1:03:40 She's been a good little girl.

1:03:41 Awesome. Awesome.

1:03:43 Yeah.

1:03:44 Let's see. So, yeah, Johnny, you're welcome to call back. I did not intend to delete you. Shout out to Luna, for sure. All right, we had a Super Chat earlier. Let's circle back. Zach Barber, thank you for the Super Chat. It says, I've compared Chris Jericho to David Coverdale of Whitesnake. At least Coverdale knew he couldn't hit the high notes anymore and retired last year. Jericho's not self-aware enough for that.

1:04:08 I am. I am up and down on Jericho's push, but I don't have a lot of criticism what's going on here. As long as in the end, you know, he loses. Nick Wayne is not being defined down by interacting with Chris Jericho. It's kind of been a collision feud. It's not like they're featuring it, you know, over-featuring it on Dynamite.

1:04:32 Right.

1:04:34 So, I don't know. I mean, I think it's been fine. I mean, Nick Wayne is the wrestler you would create in a laboratory to be an annoying heel for the legendary Chris Jericho in the final stands of his career, who can also have a good match with him by bumping like crazy for Jericho. So, to me, it's kind of perfect if you're going to have Jericho around. And I think if you are Nick Wayne and you go, Well, Jericho's kind of old and worn out as well. And people like Zach Barber don't want him around anymore. They're sick of him. If I'm Nick Wayne, I lobby to have a feud with Chris Jericho as long as there's enough give and take. And in the end, Jericho puts him over. I have not seen. Have you, Dennis, an

1:05:15 example where you thought, Jericho says he's putting him over, but it's all about him. I haven't sensed that here.

1:05:23 No no not not in no with this feud no it feels like jericho knows what he's doing and i and i'm really hopeful that he does put him over in um because he's they're wrestling at the pay-per-view so i guess we'll find out in three days whether what's going on with this but i i do think in the end he's going to put him over and where they go from there after that i don't know but i it's definitely not bad for nick wayne at 22 to be wrestling chris jericho right now this is this is a classic story that they've told for, you know, generations in wrestling, the older guy wrestling, the new, the new young guy.

1:05:54 Like this is, this is classic wrestling for, in my opinion. So no, I, I'm all for this.

1:05:59 I was very worried when he, when Jericho won, I didn't like that of course, but I was also worried when Jericho came back that he was going to try to wedge himself into some sort of main event scene or something like that.

1:06:09 And that has not happened.

1:06:11 Like I'm, I've been actually pleasantly surprised with where they've placed Jericho.

1:06:14 When he got back.

1:06:16 No, we'll say, Zach Barber said, can Jericho announce 2026 will be his last year in wrestling? I see what he did there. 2027 is a tour of Copeland, but Jericho, the clock is ticking. Two and a half months left. The problem, Zach, I don't want you to lose sleep over this, is with 2027 being Copeland's last year, I think Jericho has to stick around now until at least 2028 because you don't want to share the spotlight and retire in the same year as Copeland. That wouldn't be fair for either of them.

1:06:47 No, no, no. Definitely not. Definitely not.

1:06:50 I don't think that either one of their egos would allow that to happen either.

1:06:54 I don't hear anything about– I don't think Copeland has as big of an ego as Jericho. So, yeah.

1:07:02 Hey, everyone.

1:07:02 Greg Parks here. You've probably heard me hosting Wrestling Night in America after pay-per-views and also co-hosting the Tuesday Flagship with Wade Keller. I also host a VIP-exclusive podcast every week called Greg Parks Out Loud. In this podcast, I delve into a single topic for around 20 minutes, perfect length for one of your daily commutes or while walking the dog. A couple of my recent episodes included a look at TNA as they move to AMC and WWE and AEW injuries for the year 2025. You can listen to VIP podcasts with a VIP membership on many platforms, including on Patreon, Spotify, the Apple Podcasts native app on iPhone and CarPlay, just about every popular iOS and Android podcast app out there, and even stream right from the

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1:08:04 By the way, who do you think had a better career? Copeland or Jericho? Who's a bigger star? better matches, bigger name when all is said and done. Um, Jericho started years before.

1:08:21 That's what I was going to say. It might be, it might be Jericho because of that.

1:08:25 Um, Jericho had all of this stuff outside of WWE and all of Copeland stuff is inside of WWE. And you know, however, however that's taken, uh, I don't know. It's close, though. I think that that is a good one for sure. Edge also spent all that time in a tag team before he became a single star and is decorated in that way, and Jericho doesn't have that type of decoration. I mean, he's got his tag stuff with Big Show and stuff like that in WWE, but he's not known as a tag guy.

1:08:55 I don't know. That's a good one. Definitely a good one. What do you think?

1:08:59 Yeah i put jericho ahead okay yeah.

1:09:01 Okay that's my first inclination is jericho yeah yeah.

1:09:04 I think i think copeland was a nice kind of at his peak third or fourth biggest star but not a draw at the level not a a Jericho at his peak was more of a defining character for the generation or the era that he was a top star. And then Copeland, um, Copeland was a serviceable main event and tag team wrestler who got moments in the world title scene, but was never the guy. Jericho was never the guy, but he was more the guy than Copeland.

1:09:40 I would argue was as edge, but more so I think it's, um, the, the, Yeah, it's hard to put words to it, but there's no doubt in my mind Jericho's a bigger star than Copeland, but trying to explain why, because I keep thinking, okay, but Copeland had, Edge had the feud with Cena, and then Christian Cage and TLC, and you can talk about all the stuff, and the Randy Orton greatest match ever, and everything in between. There's so much there, but the totality of what Jericho did, international, he was more cutting edge, he reinvented himself so many times, match quality better, not a dig at edge edge was really good but um jericho was better and so yeah i don't know with your thoughts.

1:10:26 And even even um the thing with with jericho too is i mean i actually was i wrote into the 90s past cast about it uh when i was mad about uh him beating nick wayne but i did say like in the the era they're in in a couple of years he's probably one of my favorite probably is my favorite wrestler at the time like he's he definitely connected with the younger crowd. Cause I'm, I'm like 1920 at that point. Um, he's definitely connected with like me and everybody like that. And then his transfer over, he still has the greatest, probably the greatest debut ever.

1:10:56 Like when they, when everyone was jumping ship back and forth.

1:10:59 But in WCW and WWF back then his debut for raw is like, I still can see it, like everything that happened to it. So, um, you've got that aspect, uh, he, you know, the, the one that he always talked about in WWE was the, that he beat the rock and sit and, uh, stone cold in the same night, all that fun stuff.

1:11:18 Did he mention that ever after it happened? Oh yeah. Every week.

1:11:21 Yeah. As he should.

1:11:23 Right. Just like Nick Wayne, Nick Wayne should say he beat the first ever AEW champion forever when he does it.

1:11:28 So, um, no, I'm, I'm, I'm with it.

1:11:31 Uh, but yeah, it's, I, I, I was wondering if my biases of my love for young Jericho was teething, but I would probably go Jericho.

1:11:41 Even when he was the top guy, he was never really the top guy.

1:11:44 Even when he won the world title, there was all of that shenanigans with Vince McMahon. It's a good debate, though. That is one that is way closer than you would think.

1:11:54 I think if we ran a poll, who is a bigger star? Maybe we will. I think it would be like 85% would say Jericho is a bigger star. I think it would be that. I do. I think it would be that decisive. I think if we added nuance and said, who is a bigger star and by how much? Jericho by a little, Jericho by a lot. I think Jericho by a little would get a little more than half of the votes that Jericho got. But I still think so. I think a lot of people would think Jericho was a much bigger star than Copeland compared to people thinking Copeland was a much bigger star than Jericho.

1:12:33 So we'll see. Maybe I'll create that poll. We'll put it on PWTorch. It's kind of a fun exercise to get a little bit of a sample there.

1:12:40 Yeah.

1:12:41 So I'm keeping an eye on... Did Darby win or lose? I know that just turned into chaos.

1:12:47 He won.

1:12:48 Yeah, he won.

1:12:48 He won.

1:12:49 All right. So he got beat up afterwards. And then Copeland accidentally speared, of course, Ospreay. So that gives them... So we had the chaos at the end. You know, when we talk about, well, they didn't do enough to build up, I want to call it capital carnage or clockwork orange, but clockwork carnage. They, at the end of the show, I mean, if people stuck around for an hour or three and a half hours, which is how long this went, they saw, you know, the chaos of everybody, just about everybody in that match. And then some in a chaotic brawl at the end, which is a little, you know, tropey, but it's fine. I mean, given the, given the timeframe that they had and the context and, everyone kind of taking turns beating each other or taking

1:13:30 shots at each other who's in the matches. A way to end on a high note and go, ah, they're going to be locked in a carnage match on Saturday.

1:13:37 Yeah.

1:13:38 Yeah, no, no, it's good. Again, this is just, it's been weird. The shows have just been weird and just been different. And again, it's understandable. It's absolutely understandable.

1:13:49 Yeah, yeah. I'm glad they didn't let Lance Archer chokeslam both Speedball and Will Asprey and that they broke a super kick to him out of the ring.

1:13:57 Thank goodness.

1:13:58 You don't have to give an obligatory moment to the big guy who has a 2-102 record in AEW or something close to that. Speaking of numbers and records, Derek Mitchell says, MJF, thank you for the super chat, Derek. Super chat. Love it. MJF is number one in the PWI 500 in 2026, the last person in AEW to be number one since Omega in 2021. Just not a fan of AEW pandering to PWI like WWE does with ESPN.

1:14:24 I don't think it felt like pandering. It felt like acknowledging this legacy brand of an unaffiliated magazine named MJF number one. I think also MJF wants that to be mentioned, and I think he should. Because when you got Will Asprey and Roman Reigns or whoever, Cody Rhodes, to be ranked number one, that's a big deal.

1:14:48 I took this as MJF's video.

1:14:53 He sent this in. The narration felt more official. Yeah. So did the PWI 500 not come out? Was this fake?

1:15:07 Oh, no, no.

1:15:07 I'm saying it was like, no, MJF is gloating. that he's he's done this and he's he wrote this and he made this that that's why i took it was it just kind of because there's just the verbiage some of the things the guy was saying was i was chuckling under my breath about it but yeah like i i felt like this was actually mjf mjf sent this in and and tony khan's gonna play it because you know oh this is my video touting me winning the pwi 500 so yeah and we also know tony khan doesn't really care what goes on this television show.

1:15:35 It's possible you're obviously right but in watching it and maybe i was kind of half half watching or but i think i've paid attention it came across to me like aw is wants to make a big deal out of mgf winning this because yay roman reigns didn't cody roads didn't um so we're doing it but i like i said you you could you certainly could be right so chat jump in if you want to give your opinion on this.

1:15:58 I hope i'm right because it's definitely better if i'm right than than them pandering to the pwi 500 yes yeah yeah yeah.

1:16:06 Yeah, and MJF, Derek says Excalibur narrated it, so it did come from AEW. That was Excalibur? I didn't know if it was Excalibur, but it felt like it.

1:16:16 Are you sure about that, Derek? Yeah, it felt like a movie guy narrating it.

1:16:23 Yeah, chime in chat, let us know. Derek Mitchell, by the way, speaking of Derek, goes Jericho's WWE is the best in WWE history along with his legendary feud with Shawn Michaels. Uh, one of the best moments in the false title win in 2000 at Penn state with Earl Hebner as the ref and APA holding off.

1:16:42 Oh my gosh.

1:16:43 Yeah.

1:16:43 I remember that.

1:16:44 That was, that was, yeah. When they stripped him with the title, like right after, but yeah, that was great.

1:16:48 That was great too. I forgot about that.

1:16:51 Uh, let's, let's see. Zach Barber says, I agree. Jericho had a better career, but Copeland is still watchful in the ring.

1:16:56 Jericho.

1:16:57 Not so. Um, yeah, I mean, I get that Copeland, Copeland, Copeland is, uh, where Jericho was a few years ago, you know, in-ring-wise. You know, less mileage.

1:17:09 I don't know.

1:17:10 Tonight felt a little rough. Like, tonight he seemed blown up in quite a few spots. Tonight felt like, when he announced his retirement afterwards, I thought, oh, maybe he was meaning to act like that in the ring.

1:17:21 Yeah, really.

1:17:22 Because there were a couple times he went to lift some people and he just couldn't get them up. Yeah, so I felt like Copeland's like, yeah. It was his first singles match also on AEW in 18 months. He had one on Maple Leaf Pro Wrestling a couple weeks ago. But yeah, he hasn't wrestled at a singles match. He's only had one in 18 months. So that probably had a part of it.

1:17:42 Yeah, absolutely. By the way, Root Dog in the chat said, what did you think of Walker Stewart's commentary on Dynamite?

1:17:51 Dennis? Oh, I like his voice. I think he's got a really good voice. Yeah, yeah. But he also does.

1:18:01 Did he learn from Excalibur to just laugh and chuckle when people are doing big moves?

1:18:05 Because he did that quite a few times.

1:18:06 Yeah.

1:18:07 And he was there to kind of just provide a factoid.

1:18:09 He's okay. Yeah.

1:18:11 It was sort of like, here's a fact, here's a fact. And he was fine, but there were stretches where I was like, oh, that's right. He didn't seem to have a real good sense of when to interject himself. He didn't want to step on shabani and an excalibur and i don't know to me it feels like there's a little bit of a decent quite a bit of an overlap between excalibur and walker in terms of what they can add like i don't think they're complementary so it just i don't know if excalibur was freezing him out or he just was in the flow and didn't really he's not good at working with somebody new who doesn't really he can't throw to him and say you know like he does to nigel or just an obvious question to an ex-wrestler or test when ex wrestler. So, or,

1:18:51 or Danielson, of course, those are the other, that's the other group. So I don't know. Rude dog said, I think he was a plus to the commentary team. Yeah.

1:19:01 I mean, I agree. I would rather it be one, either him or Excalibur. I agree.

1:19:06 They do kind of like overstep each other and not having the wrestler there because you've got the pitch man, which is Shabani, who is just.

1:19:13 AEW is the greatest ever, all the time.

1:19:16 And then you've got Excalibur, who's just moves, moves, moves. And I assume Walker's a mixture of the two of them. I don't watch enough New Japan to really have heard a ton of him other than on his pay reviews every once in a while. But yeah, I definitely miss Taz tonight. I love Taz on commentary. So, yeah, I definitely miss him being there.

1:19:35 And they could just do a two-man booth. It didn't feel like there was a good reason for Walker to be there. Derek says, I think he sounds like a professional no-frills announcer. Yeah, just didn't really have an obvious purpose otherwise for why he was there. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the native podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it.

1:20:08 Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial. And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. Uh, Dennis, uh,

1:20:48 anything in particular you want to bring up from the show? We haven't talked about everything yet. Um, anything else jump out?

1:20:54 Yeah. So I, the only go home pro promo tonight was from the new level. Is that, that right?

1:21:00 Oh, we should talk about that. Cause I felt they took, it felt like 15 minutes to say a minute's worth of material and they were just in love with each other. Yep. Yeah.

1:21:09 Yeah.

1:21:09 The comedian was, he, he didn't, he didn't make me laugh. Like, I don't know.

1:21:12 I've never seen him before, but yeah, he, he definitely was kind of funny. Um, so I, that was, that wasn't a down, a bad thing at all. Uh, but it did, that did feel like forever though. They just dragged a little bit, but yeah, yeah.

1:21:26 So it's, I don't know. I don't know.

1:21:28 But that match I am, I am looking forward to, I'm glad that they made sure to point out that swear wasn't there tonight, but he will be at the pay-per-view cause I would have been worried and not being there. Um, and they're saying there's something with his family. Like, so I'm glad that they did say that, uh, I think that match will be good. I think the combustible element of swerve and, and hang man is anytime you're going to put them together from here on out. I think it's always going to work as long as you don't do it all the time and you don't kill, kill the feud off. Like, like they, like, uh, as you know, that's happened to plenty of, plenty of people in the past. Um, but yeah, I think that, that you can always bring

1:22:01 them back together, either when they're in a trios, they could come back in a tag together, you know, that was singles match together. It's also possible that that's how eventually I think I've heard this. I don't know where I heard this, but I think someone threw out that that's how hangman gets a shot and wins the title again is, is when swerve finally wins the title.

1:22:19 And he's like, I gotta beat you.

1:22:20 Again uh something like that but um yeah i think i think that that combustible element is going to make this match really really good uh really passionate i assume it probably opens uh the show i feel like that's that's kind of been the thing for new level as they come out i think they're first so yeah i think that's gonna be good but otherwise no like the show was just and it was there um again they had they just oh oh yeah he He seemed very happy to be with a bunch of big dudes, didn't he?

1:22:47 Did you notice that when he walked in? He was happy to not be the biggest guy there.

1:22:52 But I don't know. The crowd was behind him, but they were in his hometown.

1:22:57 So it's just getting him back on TV and trying to establish a character for him and him not just being another non-talking big dude in the Don Callis family if you want him to be more.

1:23:09 But I think that ship may have sailed a long time ago.

1:23:14 A couple other comments. Derek Mitchell said, that was the worst new level appearance for me so far. WWE and AW does put a C and D level entertainers. I think most wrestling fans have no idea who they are. Zach says, I had no idea who that comedian was. Swerve needs more notable friends. And Rude Dog says, yeah, who was that mojo guy with new level? Are we supposed to know who that is? Yeah, it just, it, yeah, it needed more of a purpose. It was generic and a celebrity that, you know, they acted like everybody would know who he was. And obviously not everybody did.

1:23:45 No, not at all.

1:23:46 Not at all.

1:23:47 I mean, and I liked, I liked the flow when they were talking in the back and then they came out.

1:23:50 I thought that was cool. The beginning of it was nice.

1:23:53 And obviously new level gets a huge reaction because as soon as they stopped talking, everyone stood up and started jumping up and down and bounce into the music again. So they, they get a reaction, but yeah, that, that segment was just a little bit, just.

1:24:03 A little too long. Like, yeah.

1:24:05 So it felt, it felt like guys that have always had direction and been told exactly what to say. Just, and now have the ability to do whatever they want, and they didn't really know what to do.

1:24:16 Yeah, I mean, it is one of those things where you're like, oh, we don't do our shtick, and when we don't do the WWE shtick, how do we fill time? And part of it, too, is it's two baby-faced teams facing each other, so it's not a lot they can say that's going to get a crowd reaction. And so, oh, you've got to beat us twice, or I don't know.

1:24:38 I mean, it's just, yeah, it didn't need to be that long.

1:24:41 And what was it?

1:24:42 Was that a new catchphrase at the end? Is that, was that a, was that, or is that an old catchphrase?

1:24:47 I'm not sure what they say.

1:24:49 I can't even remember. Like Kofi said, thank God. And he was like screaming at the thing. And then Austin screamed something into the mic. I don't even remember what it was, but it felt like they're trying to get over a new catchphrase now as well.

1:25:01 Yeah.

1:25:02 Yeah.

1:25:02 I'm not sure. We'll find out if they keep doing it.

1:25:04 Yeah.

1:25:05 Mark, Mark Biscotti says Jericho diminished his legacy in the last two years, but until his decline, Jericho was a level above edge. Okay.

1:25:13 Yeah.

1:25:13 Zach, Zach says they need the new level needed Swerve to guide them.

1:25:18 Oh yeah.

1:25:19 Yeah. Yeah.

1:25:19 Swerve is obviously has been the glue a little bit, I guess when they've been, when they've had a mic in their hand, he's been there to kind of like steer the ship.

1:25:26 Yeah.

1:25:27 Yeah. I mean, no, no huge damage done, but yeah.

1:25:31 No.

1:25:31 All right.

1:25:31 No, it'll be fine. Yeah.

1:25:33 Yeah.

1:25:34 Let's see. Is there anything else I flagged here? Going back to Baron Von Rasche, by the way, Derek Mitchell said, Baron's one of the most underrated characters in history across AWA Georgia and Mid-Atlantic. Yes, for sure. And people are talking about poor Max Caster shooting himself in the foot. And yeah, so yeah, I guess that pretty much covers it.

1:25:57 I don't have anything else to add. Chad, if you got anything last second you want to jump in with. Um, you can do that. Um, otherwise, actually, uh, JB sent in an email. So this is good. Let's see if he, uh, he's got something for us. He's, um, in the, uh, inbox here. All right.

1:26:17 Nice.

1:26:18 JB says, I'm curious where this absolutely unhinged Mox character is going. Renee asked him what kind of pain he's in. And he said, he's not sure that he can tell the difference anymore. I assume that's alluding to the physical pain of losing recent matches and the obvious mental pain of losing Pac. Marina telling Mox the only way out is through was also interesting.

1:26:33 Agree.

1:26:34 Nick Wayne's video package montage on, and by the way, he watched Collision, so these are some notes that he can add that we can't.

1:26:40 Awesome.

1:26:40 We're doing the show while it was on. Nick Wayne's video package montage on nearing Jericho to five for fighting song Superman was hilarious. Jericho's response to showing clips of Wayne cheating to beat him was equally hilarious. Okay, I'm looking forward to this.

1:26:55 It's going to be good.

1:26:56 Champ almost had a Samoa Joe-like cadence in their backstage promo together tonight. Hopefully Joe is rubbing off on him. I wonder if this pair will have a tag run together. Would be good for them to do a promo together after their match. Would be bad for them to do a promo together if it was just a one-off. There's a typo in there. Sorry, JB. I saw that you had said early that AW is losing their chance for Ospreay to be the guy, and I disagree. I disagree a bit. His first feud after All In was a huge culmination with his multi-month story with Mox It All Out.

1:27:25 Then Okada's match was announced for France. I give a lot of grace for what's happened between All Out and Now, since the death and tribute show to Pac took away from an entire week of an already short build and likely changed other plans. I think the Clockwork Carnage match was likely inaudible, but I don't think that's a fair...

1:27:39 I don't think it's fair to say that one gimmick is de-emphasizing all the good effort and evolution that's been put into the Osprey character. So, I want to be clear. I'm not against the Carnage match. I'm against... And again, and this is where maybe they made up for it in the main event post-match to a degree with all the brawling and everything and what Ospreay did, but I still will stand by otherwise that I think they should have made the carnage match, not as much about the gimmick and the qualifiers, but more about should, is this something that Ospreay should be part of this early in his reign? It's putting a title at risk in a situation that he's never dealt with before. Um, the, the,

1:28:17 the possibilities, depending on who wins these qualifying matches is as formidable of a challenge as any champion has faced early in a rain. Um, and it's, uh, so I just, you know, he could get hurt. He's on a roll. He should be sticking to one-on-one matches, not participating in something like this. There's whatever you can kind of pick from that, but I want the conversation to be more about Osprey and not have, hey, we got a concept match.

1:28:43 Isn't this cool? I'd rather have everything go through. How does it affect Osprey? And I didn't get that sense tonight, but I agree with the Tuesday night kind of mini house show and then the POC tribute. I'm not going to overreact to it, but I want to underline... don't let, and then I guess what, I think what amplified or exacerbated that feeling or kind of triggered it is just, then he's being a goofball with speedball.

1:29:08 Yeah.

1:29:09 And, and so you see him not being serious and even playing off of Andrade at ringside, you know, it's like, Oh, Andrade, you're sorry, but that happened. Like, it's just, I want him to like, act like this is serious business and he is, he is the leader. And instead that's kind of the mantle Moxley has. And, I don't want to strip Ospreay. It's sort of like with Andrade, the playfulness.

1:29:28 Don't strip away his personality, but pick your spots and make sure it's garnish and not the main course of any week's presentation of him. Dennis.

1:29:36 Yeah, absolutely.

1:29:37 And I think that that's one thing you, if you ever see Mox make a joke or smile, it is never in the context of a match.

1:29:44 Like it is never in the context of a match.

1:29:48 So I think that that's huge. And again, I, I guess the follow-up and what happens over the next few weeks will really define what's going on with Will Ospreay. And if this is him just kind of not understanding, I don't know, just having bad instincts would be a better thing on how he should be acting on American television to get himself over.

1:30:11 Because this isn't the way.

1:30:13 I really thought that after the whole Mox thing that this would be a far more serious guy. And it just feels like the last... It's just not right now. And... We'll see. Hopefully it gets better. It's not horrendous. They haven't ruined him or anything like that. It's just kind of like you're seeing signs and it's just like, uh-oh.

1:30:35 When we saw a month ago with Andrade, oh boy, he likes this catchphrase too much. Look where he is now.

1:30:43 It's not Tony Khan's nature to make a show about somebody, but I want early on because osprey's rain just feels like another rain and they'll be fine i'm not saying it's you know it's gonna it's gonna just devastate the effectiveness of his title rain i just see an opportunity that's not being taken and if you want to draw if you want to draw above the level that they're drawing in terms of attendance one of the keys is don't sell the brand and the ensemble of the feuds and the champions. You can have all of that at the same level, the brand and all the other feuds, but elevate somebody above that. And Ospreay winning a world title gives you a chance to define him that way.

1:31:27 And when they don't, it's a bit of a tell in that they don't feel he so obviously is a bigger star than they've ever had that they don't feel obligated to portray him that way. But he doesn't have to be the biggest star they've ever had. for you to tell the story that he is and to have fans believe it because there's enough there to get that across.

1:31:45 And so it's just a matter of there's a group of fans out there who are like, oh, A.W. is nice for a number two company and they have a lot of good matches. And those people are going to go to those shows. What you want to do is get a layer of fans who are like, I want to see the biggest stars. And some might think Moxie's the biggest star, MGF's the biggest star. Yeah, they might think that, but that's them deciding it. You need to decide for some fans sometimes, this is a guy, and it's what WWE's doing with all the family. And AEW should, you know, don't, obviously the push would be different, the narrative, the framing of the character would be very different. But look at what they're doing there and go, oh, we

1:32:22 could do that with Will, and maybe we would have a transformational star who jumps off the lineup sheet as more than just one of eight, you know, eight great wrestlers, one of them, who happens to now have the world title.

1:32:37 Yeah, no.

1:32:37 And I agree.

1:32:38 And I think that, that also the fear or the mindset of that, that, that they're dropping the ball a little bit, it comes from what they've done in the past. They've dropped the ball before, you know, they dropped it with Adam pages first, his first time, they dropped the ball his second time.

1:32:52 Like, I mean, that, that, that, that feud.

1:32:55 And him winning it all in, in 2025 and, And then him losing the belt so quickly was just like, what the heck did we just go through for a year with Jon Moxley and everything? So no, I think that that's the other part is that there, there is, there is the fear that this has happened before and you don't want to see it happen again.

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1:33:47 Finally, JB, as far as Collision goes, I'll push back on the complaints about the booking of the machine guns. It's been reported that guns requested to debut after September, but that Tony Khan wanted them to make an appearance in Detroit. in the meantime. And they wanted all the legendary tag teams in the ring for the Wembley moment.

1:34:00 I don't really have a problem with that. Much like Copeland, the Machine Guns are at the end of their careers and they likely want to get in all the big matches of some of the other teams that they respect. I think this Best of Five series absolutely makes sense given all of that context. So this, I mean, you know, JB nicely puts it. Yeah, it's a pushback on our framing.

1:34:20 And I think it's a good, it's the best case you can make because Wembley was special and tony khan wants to have big moments on his pay-per-views and so and then you want to have a make an appearance in detroit i don't that's not as compelling.

1:34:39 To me that's the mistake that's the mistake yeah why don't they just debut it if they debut at limley think about that that's the first time we know they're there yeah like that's huge like in in There hasn't been a big debut in AEW at a pay-per-view, and it seems like in a few pay-per-views, and that usually is one of their things.

1:34:56 So I think that would have been bigger.

1:34:58 Yeah. The idea that they walk out, and again, almost no reaction, don't have a lot to say, and they were in a collision, those all mitigate the sense of a moment.

1:35:12 Yeah.

1:35:14 Given the context, as JB says, I think the best of five series absolutely makes sense given all of that context. I'm good with the best of five series. I just think there was momentum lost between Wembley and now. And I don't have an exact answer for what to do because they didn't want to distract from everything else going on.

1:35:31 But they do feel colder than I think they should, than they had to. And I would give up the Wembley moment to give them like tonight as a big, whoa. moment I'm cool with that too yeah but I get the counter argument to it you know I mean having them have a moment to be at Wembley is cool you know so maybe maybe Tony Khan you know was torn you know maybe he was maybe he's like yeah I get like you know if he's I get what you guys are saying I thought the same thing but ultimately I made this call to have him at Wembley and yeah we paid a price but hopefully the best of five series heats him up again and that reasonable people could make that.

1:36:04 Argument And I think it'll happen.

1:36:07 I think, I think that it's once you get them in the ring in front of the crowd and you, you show the people that don't actually know them, what they can do is, you know, I think I really do think that's going to work and, and they're going to mesh well with everybody else that's in the tag division. Yeah.

1:36:21 JB has some other points from dynamite. He said, it feels like tonight's trails match in the Mox Davis at Russell dream is all building to a death rider, callous family, blood and guts match in a few weeks. I think that originally they were building to an Osprey Osprey is United Empire versus death riders. blood and guts match until pox and timely death. Now it feels as though the death riders are going to, going to go through a true baby face arc before they eventually disband. Um, yeah, I'd like, I don't, they have to be baby faces, right?

1:36:45 Dennis.

1:36:47 Oh yeah. I even wrote that down.

1:36:48 I said that like when they came in, they were pumping the crowd up their baby faces.

1:36:52 Now they, they are like, there's no doubt about it. Yeah.

1:36:55 Yeah.

1:36:56 I'm kind of curious to see how this unexpected singles run for Copeland will go while Christian is out injured. I can't imagine the story of Copeland and Christian is completely over yet, but obviously Copeland announced tonight that next year will be his final year in pro wrestling. I wonder if his last match will be in a tag with Christian or possibly against Christian. It could be him losing a world title match toss spray at Wembley, although I think they'll get to that sooner based on the spear tonight, unless that's just part of building up the carnage match.

1:37:21 Yeah, no, but I think something like what you're saying, even if it's not, if it's not Offsbury, if it's somebody else, I think him going out, he, he might want to go out losing, you know, and losing in the title matches. Like he's pretty, it's a pretty cool way to go out. That's a pretty cool way to go out for sure. Not everyone is going to get the sting treatment.

1:37:39 Right. No, exactly. And yeah, I'm trying to think like who would be, I mean, there's, they can tell a story between now and then that makes sense to me. And maybe it, maybe it's against Kyle Fletcher and he loses to Fletcher. And I mean, there's so many places we can get over the next year. Um, but if he has a, if he had a retirement match, let's say it is at Wembley. Um, I don't know. Match against Christian. I'd be, it'd be fine. You know, I'd rather have it not feel like a greatest hits, but trying to, you know, put somebody else over and something more fresh.

1:38:08 I agree.

1:38:08 I agree with that completely. I think that, I think you do that.

1:38:11 They can have the pay-per-view before, you know, his last match can be the second to his last second to last.

1:38:16 Pay-per-view can be against Christian. And I think that that works perfectly.

1:38:18 Yeah. Um, Is Copeland going to have to run through the Callis family on his run to the world title? Will he get involved in the blood and guts match? It's cool. His retirement will come on the 30th anniversary of his start in WWE. developmental.

1:38:30 Yeah.

1:38:32 That's cool.

1:38:33 I'm glad for the second Dynamite in a row, they've had a video package of Rene going over step by step the rules to the Clockwork Carnage match. We didn't end up fully understanding the championship part. At least I didn't. But And a couple of people in the chat too. But yes, the rules, I think were worth going over with the video. And that part, I definitely give a thumbs up too. And I like saying it's like, it's like gauntlet meets Iron Man. People know that. And they're like, oh, okay.

1:39:03 So we're just melding these two things together.

1:39:05 So many versions of each. So yeah.

1:39:08 Yeah.

1:39:08 Yep. Let's see. I like the diversity of the United Empire. You've got a British flair with the male Osprey and females and Hater and Windsor, the French Canadian and Speedball and the Latin flavor and Andrade.

1:39:17 Okay.

1:39:18 It's still very early on, but the backstage promo tonight, I did feel a good amount of chemistry between the members, and it's good to see them interacting all together. I feel as if Ilya will be a good fit for the group when he eventually debuts, Ilya Dragunov. By the way, Dragunov could end up being goofy, too. In the ring, he's so over-the-top emotive with facial expressions and stuff, so this could be... Yeah, I don't know. JB, we are not as high on the chemistry. I mean, there was chemistry, but I'm not high on it. If that makes sense.

1:39:48 Was there, I mean, there was chemistry because, because there's, there is chemistry between Bailey or speedball and, and Will. And then Will's wife was there. So of course there was some sort of chemistry in there. Andrade just standing on the side, just fell out. And he just felt weird. Like it felt weird him being there completely. So I, I don't know. I, I'm glad, I'm glad JB liked it.

1:40:06 That's cool.

1:40:06 That's good.

1:40:07 Yeah. I'm glad somebody did.

1:40:10 I like Brody King being the voice of reason for hangman. When he loses his cool in the moment, Brody plays a good, serious yet reasonable character. um yeah brody does seem like the guy who would be cooling down a bar fight not escalating it i'm curious how to catch an okada will interact in the clockwork yeah that'll be good i like how they use person illustrated naming mjf the rest of 2026 and storyline with mjf cocky sound bites along the way furthering his arrogant heel character i like that new level of remain mostly serious during the run in aw so far sure there have been brief moments of levity like when their comedian friend But they always seem to be able to bring it back to being about the Trios titles. No goofy props or dumb

1:40:46 songs to this point. Yeah, I'm not advocating for a return to what WWE is doing. I just think they could have gotten to their point quicker. And I think they have the handicap or the headwind of it's a Trios title feud. But there's not a lot to talk about because it doesn't feel personal. And even if it is, fans are sort of torn in who to cheer for.

1:41:08 And the Trios titles don't have a history of meaning a lot. And so, I don't know. I mean, the absence of irritants with the new level in AW is a positive, but they need to kind of figure out what their voice is going to be otherwise. And I think they're just in a situation that isn't ideal for that. Titles that don't mean a lot, Swerve not there this week, a comedian people don't know that well, not a lot to say in facing babyface opponents, and then just having too much time to fill or spending too much time out there. Just a bunch of paper cuts that made it not work. Yeah, no, I agree.

1:41:40 Yeah, we talked enough about that. It was just a weird segment. So, yeah.

1:41:45 And then finally, he says, I think that either Joe or Ciampa will be Ospreay's next singles challenger coming out of clockwork, where I assume Ospreay will retain his title. My preference would be Joe, and I think they'll go that way since he got the submission win tonight. Although he does have that badass appeal and legacy that will always get him some cheers, even when he's playing a compelling heel. As always, love the show and go VIP. Thanks, JB.

1:42:01 Anything you want to add to that, Dennis?

1:42:04 No, no, I think I'm good.

1:42:05 Yeah, cool.

1:42:06 All right.

1:42:08 I will jump back in the chat to see if anybody had anything to add. Rudak said, yeah, the Machine Guns weren't even on Dynamite. Their debut was on Collision.

1:42:17 Yeah, yeah.

1:42:19 He says, Okada's getting more and more fan support, kind of getting undeniable as a babyface. Yeah, I think Okada's going to be a fun babyface, and that should come sooner than later.

1:42:28 Definitely.

1:42:29 Yeah.

1:42:30 All right, cool.

1:42:31 So, everybody, go VIP. Don't miss out on all the cool stuff we're doing throughout the week. VIP membership has different tiers, different platforms. You can do it through Patreon, through Spotify, through your Apple account, pwtorgevipinfo.com. Thanks again, Dennis. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks to everybody in the chat, especially the super chats. And thanks to Johnny who called in.

1:42:55 He messaged and said his connection was bad, so he dropped off. And thanks to JB for the good late email with some additional context for what happened around the collision. All right. Until next time, Wade Keller thanking you and signing off. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial free. A nice streamlined listening experience. PWTorch.com slash go VIP for full details on a commercial free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad free website with VIP exclusive content. PWTorch.com slash go VIP or Your time is valuable, and that's

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