5 YRS AGO RAW POST-SHOW: Keller & Hazelwood's reaction to women’s tag, Big E-Drew, King and Queen, on-site report, was anyone likable on Raw

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1:35 Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 On today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Tuesday, October 13th, 2026, we jump back five years to the Raw Post Show that livestreamed on October 11th, 2021. PW Torches' Bruce Hazel would join me to review the show. With live callers and emails, we talked about the hodgepodge of unsatisfying endings and predictable sequences throughout the show, how few wrestlers were positioned to be likable or admirable, the King and Queen tournament matches and more, segment and match analysis, including Jimmy Smith's continued struggles with the English language, Bobby Lashley's standout mic work, Bianca Belair showing how to be cool inside with fairness against cheating, the stench of crown jewel on everything and more. The show includes live calls

2:24 and emails, and on-site correspondent joined us to talk about what it was like in the arena in San Francisco and what the crowd reactions were like and more. So let's get to it. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show, five years ago. Flashback again for Tuesday, October 13th, 2026. So this episode of Raw, Bruce, was a bunch of people who don't like each other not getting along, making us root for who in the end?

2:50 I didn't really come away feeling very good about anybody watching tonight's episode of Raw. I really feel like that's sort of a core aspect of enjoying competition. If WWE's not going to stress the stakes, the athletic aspect of it, the sports-like aspect of it, and they're not going to marvel at athleticism, it's more about The characters, shouldn't they have somebody who's likable and X? I don't know. I didn't come away super inspired to root for anybody tonight.

3:24 How about you?

3:26 Beyond that, only the opening match and the closing match went beyond five minutes. So you had seven other matches in between where the max was four and a half minutes. Most matches were between one and a half and two and a half minutes. So there just wasn't enough time to even tell a story on who you should think you should really root for or be behind. in terms of those middle matches. And, you know, I've been away for two weeks, and this is one of those Raws where I'm kind of like, you know, Wade, I think I'm done with Raw.

3:54 But no, no, no, I'm still going to stay. I'm still going to cover Raw.

3:56 It's just, it just becomes a chore sometimes. Not just sometimes, but, you know, I've covered Raw for almost a year now for The Torch. I think November 16th is when I first covered Raw last year. It was right in the heart of the pandemic, so I tried to give it some slack. But now that the crowds are back, it's just, nothing's improved. And I think that's the biggest indictment on WWE, especially on Raw, since, the fans have returned there's just nothing has improved.

4:18 Well we have uh the rated r superstar to look forward to showing up on raw to shake things up and other members of the draft um i think that's what they're kind of holding out for um or that's what they're kind of i guess trying to get people to be excited about is that there will be change coming.

4:41 Um yeah and.

4:42 They reiterated that by showing the graphic twice on the full roster. That'll be there in two weeks, but you need to also focus on what's happening right now. And, you know, I noted, noted in my report tonight that even after two weeks away, I'm tired of riddle and Orton versus styles of Omas. And I'll be glad when that is over with, um, hopefully soon, but it might go on until we're all on blood this rate for all I know.

5:07 Yeah.

5:07 I mean, like riddle is a likable guy. Um, maybe dopey, and maybe, as Jason Paul noted in his report, I can't remember the last time I laughed at his jokes, but he seems like an affable, nice guy, but then he just gets destroyed by Omos. You have, who's the other example I was going to give? Oh, Xavier and Kofi.

5:28 I mean, I know not everybody's as irritated by them as I am, but I find them to be just intolerable.

5:35 I mean, like, you know.

5:37 Uh, um, uh, Kevin Patrick's interviewing, um, and I mean, they just can't stop just preening and just grading on my like sensibilities with their just obnoxious demeanor. It's just like grow up and act like, like act, act like a, you know, grownup. I don't know. I, I'm just, I'm in the search for somebody who is likable. Who's also treated seriously. You know, I mean, Riddle just being treated like he can't beat Omos, and they tried to give him the out while he went after AJ, and that was ill-advised. Well, I don't want to root for someone who can't stay focused on the opponent he challenged. It's not like Styles did anything to demand that. You know, Jeff Hardy was distracted by R-Truth and lost because of

6:21 a distraction. I guess, I mean, is Doudrop like... Actually, Doudrop, I'm kind of rooting for her. I mean, you know... Maybe she's the most likable person on this entire show.

6:32 She would have been, except for after the match, she taunted Natalya and did the whole spirit fingers in her face, and that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. There's supposed to be the face you said in your promo that you want to show all the boys and girls that you can all be royalty, which had nothing to do with what you just said beforehand, so you need to work on your promos there, too. But everything is just incoherent and out of whack on Monday Night Raw, and I'm sure we'll get to it with the callers and the emails, but I'll stop here. I'll control myself a little bit and hopefully let it out in spurts throughout the rest of the show.

7:01 Yeah. I mean, it's very formulaic what they're doing. You know what I mean?

7:06 Yes, yes.

7:06 You know, you just sort of, it's just, they're just dropping wrestlers into something that they just formulaically do. And it just, it's stale. You know, it's stale. And, you know, talking about the draft and new wrestlers coming, you know, it's almost like they're telling people, let's just get past Crown Jewel. Yeah, we're kind of, you know, We're promoting these matches. We've got some awkward matchups, you know, like Drew against Big E. And we're just kind of doing it because it's the last chance they have to wrestle each other. I actually think they did a nice job at least addressing... Not that I came up with clarity, but at least they weren't ignoring it, which is, you know, what happens if Drew wins the WWE title? Well, Drew's like,

7:51 I'm just going to show up on Raw with it. And the Usos are like, hey, careful or Reigns will unify both belts. And then was it... who said that?

8:01 Yeah.

8:03 She said, I'll make you Becky no belts or I'll have both. Oh, I'll not blend them. I will start with an M not merge them, meld them.

8:11 Yeah.

8:11 Meld them.

8:12 Which is apropos considering it's metal that you're going to put together.

8:15 Right.

8:16 So yes.

8:17 Yeah.

8:17 So she's going to meld the belts together if she wins them. So, I mean, they are playing with this, you know, kind of in between state that we're in between the draft and, I know Tom Colohue and Nick Barbatti on Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure this past weekend were talking, especially Tom, about how just poorly timed this draft was. And I mean, I kind of understand why they did it, when they did it. I think this was a choice they made of multiple bad options. And I'm not that down on the fact that the draft happened, but they're going to have a few weeks before it takes effect. I get that they were losing to AEW in some demographics, and they just wanted to have a little more flexibility in the few weeks before everything gets

9:03 settled post-Crown Jewel, because they have this essentially a pay-per-view type event where it's largely people facing... Well, it is just people facing each other who are on the same brand pre-draft, and they just have to get through that. But they didn't want to do the draft in the middle of, you know, like right before or right after Crown Jewel that late.

9:21 So, I mean.

9:23 And I guess the reason that I'm giving them that latitude is, one, I don't see a big downside in having a few weeks where we get some fresh matchups. I'm for that. The Usos against Drew and Big E felt fresh. It felt different. And so that was a positive on the show, even if it was just a backdrop for Drew and Big E to not get along.

9:44 Yeah. To go back to your earlier question on who is actually the most likable from the show, I think it was Bobby Lashley. Yes, you're right. I think he was actually the most likable person coming out of tonight's show.

9:55 And the thing is, is there's not a single person, and maybe I'll correct myself if I think of someone. because you talked me out of dewdrop. I don't know if there's someone worth... I think in a lot of cases, there's not anyone we're actually supposed to like. But I don't know if they succeeded in. And portraying the people who are supposed to be like, like as likable, like maybe Bianca Belair, would she be number one on your list? Did, can you talk me out of thinking Belair had a, had a night where I, I have a reason to root for, I, they didn't give me a reason not to, they didn't give me a reason to root against her. That's what I'm looking for here. It was, did she do a good job?

10:32 I think when you look, considering her promo and everything that happened after, her promo is directing to the point of everything that happened to her, which was usually by not her on a court, and she also put over how every momentous moment, that's kind of redundant, every significant moment this year with the women's division, especially on SmackDown, has revolved around her.

10:51 She's been involved in those moments.

10:54 So I think, and looking at what happened before the match and after the match, she was only responding to things that were also happening to her. So I think in this sense, she is the most likable woman to come out of the entire show. Um, unless you are someone who is a sadist and like Shayna Baszler.

11:10 Right, right.

11:11 Yeah.

11:11 And that's, I don't think we're supposed to like Shayna. So I, I find Shayna reasonably likable. I think she's worth rooting for. Um, and I don't know. I mean, I, I'm hesitant to read too much into anything that they're doing right now because I think it's just– until we get past Crown Jewel and everything just kind of gets settled into everyone in a certain slot, these are things they might just be doing to bridge themselves to the next stage and the next era. So I'm just eager for Crown Jewel to be over with. I mean I just can't imagine in front of that audience having– the matches that they're having and having the crowd be into it.

11:55 I mean, how are they going to react to Goldberg and Lashley? It's just like, I can't even imagine them being all that into it. Wow.

12:05 You're not the only one, Wade.

12:07 No.

12:07 What is going on with field goal kickers? This is crazy. Sorry.

12:11 I'm watching the Giants and Dodgers right now because I have a Giants fan like John Mazzara. So John Mazzara and I on the Monday Night Raw side, we hold it down for San Francisco.

12:19 Yeah.

12:19 Oh God.

12:20 I just, I had the, Turn the NFL football game on right after the– I've kind of– yeah. And it's just another– was this chip shot or not? Another missed field goal. The Packer game.

12:30 Oh, my God.

12:31 The Packer-Bengals game was just crazy.

12:32 And, of course, it ended the wrong way.

12:34 Anything within 35 yards should be a chip shot for kickers, honestly.

12:37 Yeah.

12:38 Wow.

12:41 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP-exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip. All right, let's pause, introduce ourselves, and get on to phone calls and emails. We are hoping to hear from Nico, our on-site correspondent, who is in the building in San Francisco tonight. So we'll be on the

13:32 lookout for his call. He went with his family, so be interested to get his perspective. But we want your perspective. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Monday, October 11th, 2021. And I'm Wade Keller, the host of the program, the founder and editor of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter. and PeteWTorch.com, the website. And I've been hosting radio shows and podcasts for like three decades now.

13:59 I started in August of 1991 on KFAN Radio with the Pro Wrestling Focus radio show, one of the earliest mainstream broadcasts on a major 50,000-watt station covering professional wrestling. I've been doing this three decades plus, and it's always fun even when the shows aren't polished and awesome. And what makes it fun is the mix of different people I get to talk to as co-hosts. And the voice you hear so far is this week's co-host, Bruce Hazelwood from pwtorch.com. Bruce, welcome back to the co-host chair.

14:36 Thank you for having me and inviting me on after what's been a.

14:39 Hectic 18 days or so in the personal life. We're all settled and pretty much ready to go. So Yeah, I'm glad to be back covering. Well, I don't know if I'm glad to be covering, Rob, but I'm glad to be back as part of the Torch family once again.

14:52 So thank you.

14:53 Yeah, from the spot we're in, I enjoy critiquing shows and analyzing them and some of the fun. Some of the fun is in trying to figure out what they're thinking and deconstructing it and coming up with ideas for how to make things better. By the way, are you going to disclose what state you moved to?

15:13 Sure.

15:14 So, uh, those of you who have been listening to the torch or follow me and whatnot, know that I've been living in Seattle for a couple of years, but we are now living in YPO Hawaii.

15:23 So, uh, for me right now, it is what time is it? 5 22 PM. And that means even after you and.

15:30 I get done with it, I still have time to eat dinner, take the dog on a walk, enjoy my time before the night, and then.

15:35 I can go to sleep.

15:37 Yeah.

15:37 What's, what's the temperature?

15:39 It's probably been in the 80s mostly, but there's been so much wind here since we moved that it's nice and cool.

15:45 It's really hot in the sun, but that marine wind is very, very nice.

15:49 All right. Enough about you. Enough about Hawaii.

15:53 I asked.

15:53 I deserve it. All right. You can add your voice to the show. We invite you, if you're listening to our live stream, to give us a call, 347-215-8558. That's 347-215-8558. When you call, push 1 on your keypad, and that will flag you on the switchboard. I know a lot of people are watching the football game. Spoiler alert. Go into overtime. And also, is a baseball playoff game still going on?

16:21 Yeah, the Giants are making a pitching change in the bottom of the fifth right now.

16:26 We're up 1-0.

16:27 Yeah, so a nice competitive game there. So anyway, if you are watching that while listening to our live stream in the background, we invite you to give us a call and give your thoughts there. on raw you can also email us at wade keller podcast at pwtorch.com that is wade keller podcast at pwtorch.com i just heard from nico just now he is um heading home on his bike although we went with his family did they all bike to the show that's so san francisco with them um yes and i love it uh so yeah he's gonna call us up in about 20 minutes so i will take some calls in the meantime And as I said, you can email us to WadeKellerPodcast at PWTorch.com. A lot more happened on the show that we'll get to. And

17:15 we'll see if I get to talking about Jimmy Smith again. We'll just see if we can.

17:20 Oh, I have some thoughts on Jimmy Smith, too, tonight.

17:22 All right.

17:23 Very good. But let's begin our phone calls here, and we'll go to Kyle in Baltimore. You get to kick off the show tonight. Kyle, the women involved in a melee tonight, or a melee. Apparently they're interchangeable, right, Bruce?

17:42 I've only heard it pronounced melee except for when I was a kid and thought it was pronounced melee because I didn't know how to pronounce words yet.

17:47 So take that for what it was.

17:48 Someone can be mealy-mouthed. You know, there could be an announcer who's mealy-mouthed, but... When the wrestlers get into a brawl, that's not a melee. That's a melee. I love Jimmy Smith doubling down on that when Corey Graves called him out on it. He just insisted they're interchangeable and it's the same thing. And he didn't seem to have a sense of humor. Like, I don't think he was, like, self-deprecatingly joking. Like, well, I'm just going to, you know, sort of, you know, with the tongue-in-cheek, you know, dig in more on this. So, yeah.

18:15 All right.

18:16 See, it already happened. Kyle, welcome. What did you think about tonight? What did you think of the melee? I mean melee.

18:24 Well, yeah, well, before I get to that, because I just found it so interesting. So the women itself all together had very short matches, again, besides the main four. Like I said before, they only care about Sasha, Becky, Bianca, and Charlotte. It's all they care about because the other women, they were like, second, they were like, they don't care to have short matches and who cares. I thought it was so stupid that they... said this was going to be a tag team match.

18:54 I was like, why?

18:54 Why is this a tag team match? Sasha and Bianca hate each other. Charlotte and Becky hate each other. All four of them hate each other. I was like, why are they doing this again? They love to have Sasha and Becky as a tag team. Or Sasha and Bianca as a tag team. They love to have Becky and Charlotte as a tag team.

19:11 So stupid.

19:12 Unnecessary. They already hate each other. Sasha and Becky are going to have a match on SmackDown. It's like, come on. I actually enjoyed the brawl. It wasn't even, I can't even call it a match. It wasn't even a match. It was a pure fight. I enjoyed that. But I was like, why even bother, A, having a commercial from this?

19:32 They come back and try to do the match again. Yeah, it's still in a brawl still. So it's like, it's so stupid. And it's like, I'm just thinking to myself, watching this I'm like why is Charlotte even involved she's actually a part of this story so much it's about the three of them Charlotte's not even part of not even part of Crown Jewel at all and it's like I don't know it's just it's like I'm like you know everybody's gonna say Bianca's so like at this point all three all four of them are kind of unlikable if you really think about it because it's like they don't want to, it's like, at least to me personally, I like all three of them. I don't care about Charlotte.

20:16 I do like all three of them. And like, it's like, it's like to me, it's like, I'm trying to think who's going to walk.

20:23 Out as champions.

20:24 I'm still very conflicted about it.

20:27 I still deep down going to be betting.

20:30 Because I just think, hey, I cannot see them taking this hell away from her this quickly. But on the other hand, are they really going to pin Becky? I mean, Sasha Banks and Bianca Belair, again, it's like, oh. And thinking of that, too, about Becky herself, I got done listening to an interview she did with Ryerson about her heel turn. And it's like, she was a good explanation, but she still gets cheered. So it's like, it doesn't really matter what she says. It's like, I don't understand what Becky has to say at this point. She's like, whatever.

21:00 But my whole point about the entire thing is just, I just don't know who's going to, I don't know why he did this. Cause it was just one big fatal four way match as far as I'm concerned. Yeah.

21:12 All right, Kyle, you had some semicolons in there, not just commas, but I didn't hear a period. Um, so, but I like your intensity. I like your passion. Um, lots of things we can, uh, we can react to there. Um, but I like a good use of a semicolon in grammar and in print, but also when speaking. Um, uh, Bruce, uh, a lot there, I guess the first, I want to make a compliment. I want to compliment something about Rod and I, which was that we heard from all four women involved in the match they announced ahead of time.

21:41 And I thought, I mean, I'd have to, I don't know. I think they all gave like good, like they all talked in a way that sort of fit their character. You know, Sasha seemed like she wasn't on planet Sasha anymore. She's back on earth. It was like, that's good. Sasha, not what, wherever, whatever world she was floating around in earlier this year where I didn't know what was going on.

22:00 This is big star Sasha standing up for herself. Charlotte was arrogant and completely unlikable. Becky is likable but heelish and cocky and just a little too brash for a lot of people even though people really like her. And I thought Belair really struck a good tone. So I like the idea of it and I like the execution of it in that here's a match coming up later in the show. I think it was in the top of the third hour roughly. And they built it up.

22:32 You know, they reminded you for two hours who was in it and what was at stake. And, you know, Kyle's like, why are we having a tag match? Why are we having the tag match? Well, you know, WWE, I mean, I think it's built in. WWE wants to draw ratings. I don't think they should talk about it on the air. But I think it's sort of in the back of people's minds. This is a big time match at a time when the women haven't been separated into Raw and SmackDown yet. So the reason the match is happening is we're in this in-between zone where it's just sort of people like the Usos just floating around wherever they want to go. And so it's a chance to draw some ratings by having a match, an all-star women's match that you won't be able to see starting

23:12 in two weeks. And that's why they had it. And of course, the idea too is matchmakers kind of You know, if we're to play up the storyline aspect of it, people making the matches kind of want to see what would happen when this combustible situation develops. I thought that they got a little too practiced and precise in their words about what to expect. It felt like they were, like, foreshadowing things by reading it off a script. And I thought, you know, WWE's just a little too polished sometimes with their announcing. Um, so I thought that was a downside of it. They just kind of were warning you, there's going to be dissension and distaste and distrust and this, this, and this, that, um, to kind of, you know, for, for, um,

23:55 not forecast, uh, uh, just, um, what's foreshadow. Thank you.

23:58 Yes.

23:59 Um, forecast and foreshadow the same thing, Bruce, they're unchangeable. What are you talking about? Um, so, so yeah. Um, so anyway, that, those are some of my thoughts, some of your thoughts.

24:08 Well, when you speak about them being so polished, sometimes they're also they also beat you over the head too much. And we're talking about the dishonesty and all that stuff. That was also beating you over the head too much to me. By the end of the whole entirety of those segments put together. I'll also say that I liked the melee that happened before the match a bit. I think the escalation to how it happened made sense because, I mean, as Kyle was so eloquently stating, these women all hate each other, so Banks and Bell are, of course, going to try and one-up each other, especially when they're involved in a match next week for the title.

24:51 And I liked how it eventually.

24:55 Devolved into even the teammates scrapping with each other before and after the match. However, as Kyle was also saying, when you put this alongside the two Queen's Crown matches we had tonight, it's supposed to be a prestigious tournament, first time ever. One side of the bracket has Carmella versus Alina Vega.

25:17 I like Alina Vega, I like.

25:18 Carmella in their own different ways, but they're just not built up to me to be someone for this. But it's also a thing where because of the focus that is put on these main four and Bayley when she's healthy, you automatically look at that tournament as mid-tier, second class, and the people they put in give it that same vibe, which is, I'm not trying to denigrate the workers, it's how they've been booked. And then to have both those matches combined last a total of less than four minutes, granted one was Shayna Baszler versus Dana Brick, and Dana Brick shouldn't last more than 90 seconds with Shayna Baszler, it still just gives off a sense that this is all just thrown in there to, to appease people or

26:04 to appease, um, maybe some workers. I don't know it, but it doesn't have the sense that there's actually any import behind it. And I feel bad that there isn't any import behind it because, excuse me, for a lot of the women, especially Natalia was talking about.

26:18 I told you all that smog in Hawaii was going to cause you to not be able to do shows without coughing.

26:23 It's the bog, the volcanic smog.

26:25 Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry.

26:26 Um, But, you know, you have Natalia discuss how it's very important for her because of the family legacy.

26:33 You know, Bret Hart was King of the Ring, for example, and Hart was King of the Ring.

26:37 And then to have her lose so unceremoniously in about two minutes, it just, again, I'm not sure how we're supposed to receive this whole thing, except as nothing more than something just for Crown Jewel, which most fans don't even look at as really a legitimate event.

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27:18 Subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PWBoom.com. Once again, that's PWBoom.com.

27:36 By the way, so I don't forget to say this. The women and the men are just looking like absolute fools, acting, fantasizing about sitting on the throne and wearing a crown. Like, I mean, you know, the... I'm trying to think of the proper term. Just like putting wrestlers in a position to just act like juveniles, act like children. They're just...

28:04 What grown-up is going to watch... you know, like want to watch a show where Jinder Mahal is like, Oh, I can't wait to sit on a throne. That means nothing and stands for nothing. And Oh man, it's going to be still great to be able to sit on a throne. Like by the time you turn, like, I don't know, maybe when you turn eight, that no longer would be quite the thrill. And, and this, I mean, how can you like take anything Jinder Mahal does seriously?

28:29 Not that anyone ever did, but you know, just conceptually or Xavier Woods, like talking to the crown, it's coming home, baby. It's like, Well, what? Why is this so important to you? Do you mind like telling those of us who don't watch you on UpUpDownDown or follow you on social media, like what it is about this that's so special to you?

28:48 Maybe tell that story on the air and hopefully it's a good one. Yeah, it's just, you just watch this and you're just like, what grownup would look at this and be like, yeah, I want to pay to see these superstars. They're just, they're booked to act like Seven-year-olds. Biggie and Drew McIntyre. I didn't hate what they did.

29:10 I saw what Zach Hadorn put on Twitter. How can you root for these guys who are just bickering and all that? But I get it. They had moments of we're going to work together and have them on a professionalism, and then we have the rote misunderstanding. It works in three's company, but when it happens every single time, You know, that baby faces team together who aren't necessarily best of friends.

29:37 It's just, that's why I say it just so formulaic and it is okay to, to like, there are other ways to promote professional wrestling until storylines then going back to that. So I didn't hate it. You know, I thought there were other things that were weaker and I think Biggie and Drew, there was some chemistry and I think Biggie's benefiting from sharing a spotlight with Drew like that. But, There's still, it's just so often, it's because it's not an exception. It's the rule. Ultimately, everybody just broke down into not being able to act like in any way or conduct themselves in any way like grownups.

30:14 Yeah.

30:14 And real quickly, before I go back to Kyle, I think McIntyre, for me, I don't want to see him as a baby face anymore. I want him, if he is a baby face though, he works best with, when he can just respond off of whoever he's in the ring with.

30:32 In terms of promos.

30:33 So tonight, I thought his best moment was when Big E says, I can speak for both of us, and he goes, you definitely cannot speak for Drew. And I think that was his best moment, and it worked very well to show their chemistry, because one, it planted the seed for what happened later in the night, but two, it also gave another sense to McIntyre that there's more to him than just this badass Scottish warrior who wants to win the title.

30:58 There's more intelligence behind him and more cunning and.

31:04 I don't want to say agency because he's always been about agency, but it's not just attached to needing to be champion. Even though this is about being champion, he showed more to him than just that tonight to me. And I think that was a win for him. But again, neither of them right now is very likable.

31:22 Before I go back to Kyle, Bruce, do you have a prediction? Because Kyle did bring this up. on how they're going to settle this issue with the championships. By the time we get past Crown Jewel, who are the champions and how do they get them out of the corresponding brand? The WWE and Universal title can switch brands.

31:38 It's no big deal. They're not named after the show they're on. But the Raw Women's title and the SmackDown Women's title seem like they ought to be on the show that they're on, unless they're going to merge them or meld them, as Charlotte said.

31:52 Well.

31:53 If recent history of the draft is any indication, they'll just trade the titles. They've done that with the people who were Raw Tag Team Champions and SmackDown Tag Team Champions. I think last year was the Street Pop was a new day and they just switched off. And I think they've also done that with the Women's Champions one time, but I can't remember. And of course, they've already done it with the Universal and the WWE Champions. It went from red to blue after they made the switch to the brand.

32:13 So.

32:15 I think for them, a simple switch is all that takes. And usually it's just switching the color. So with the main championships, it's the strap for the Universal and WWE Championship belt. Or the WWE Championship is the same, I should say. The Universal Championship strap changes. And then the plate on the Women's Championships are what would change, I guess.

32:32 Or whatever. They would just trade the belts, basically.

32:36 Kyle, back to you for any follow-up on anything we said or a new topic.

32:40 Yeah, it's just.

32:41 I just think that's what's going to happen. I just think that Becky and Charlotte is going to switch belts. Like I said, like weeks ago, I don't know if I said it here or somewhere else, but, um, um, yeah. And then it's what I did. I did enjoy, uh, their, their, um, segments in the back with their promos, hyping up the magic, but that was good. And then the brawl stuff was good too.

33:01 I enjoyed it.

33:01 I just thought that that's what it should have just been. It's just, it's just one of their brawlers, but they brawl that.

33:07 And Mac itself, but whatever.

33:09 Um, And in terms of the tournaments themselves, it's just these, you know, like I said before, these short matches, these sort of women's matches are so just, I don't know why. First of all, I don't know why Liv Morgan and Toni Somari are out of the tournament. They don't really care anymore. Because now that they're gone, it's like, I just think, like, who cares? And now it's even doing more less women's matches.

33:36 It's like.

33:38 I was just like, what are they doing?

33:39 I don't know what.

33:40 It's like, they really have no faith in the rest of the women. They only care about the four of them.

33:46 Only.

33:47 And that's it. They don't care about any other woman on that brand. Now, I don't know if they are winning until the draft is in effect on the 22nd or not, but it seems like. If that does happen, I'll go back to this moment of like, well, if you were serious to do it right then when the draft was affected, but not weeks ago because there's a waiting period. It's like, I don't know.

34:21 I just think this entire thing has completely been a waste. Friday just really soured on me after a win and total storm loss. too big a piece i was into like you should have stopped going longer but i don't know all right um yeah and that's it.

34:39 All right cool kyle uh thanks for calling um have a good have a good week um bruce any anything you want to say in response to any of that uh.

34:48 Not for now i'm sure other people will bring up the segments that we can come back to but for now i think i'm okay.

34:53 Yeah all right our number three uh you can give us a call here at three four seven two one five eight five five eight That's 347-215-8558. And our on-site correspondent, Nico, should be calling us in just a few minutes here. So we'll find out what it's like in the building. I know WrestleTix on Twitter saying under 4,000 people in attendance, the lowest attendance for Raw since they went back on the road. They did a pretty good job, Bruce, hiding how few people were in that cavernous building. But I'm curious from Nico how cavernous and empty it felt to be in a building with you know i don't know is it 20 000 capacity counting floor seats and to have it like basically one-fifth full i know the big

35:34 entrance screen kind of cuts off some of the empty seats but man um and and i get the giants you know are in the playoffs and uh they have a big game tonight that can hurt walk up but still man um if.

35:47 You wouldn't have told me that i wouldn't have known that there were that few fans because of how they how they strategically use their camera shots tonight. But it does help explain some of the lack of responses and enthusiasm we heard throughout the night, I think, is that there just weren't enough fans to make enough noise in that building.

36:05 No, for people who don't watch AEW, like, if you don't watch AEW, like, watch AEW and just see what it's like to have a crowd... really into watching a show. And it's not, not like AW bats a hundred, a thousand. It's not like a hundred percent of the time that the crowd is super into it. But what, I mean, more often than not, they are. And sometimes they're like so into it and it just makes such a difference. And, and I mean, it was, you know, I don't, you know, when I, when I attended SmackDown, um, you know, a couple months back, it was just like the energy in that building was amazing. It was one of the best crowds that WWE has drawn. And so it is kind of market by market different. And, Maybe that was because

36:42 it was just so fresh coming back from the Thunderdome era. I don't know, but yeah. Anyway, all right.

36:50 Well, another thing that AEW does well is they book arenas that they know that they can at least fill to enough capacity where enough of the enthusiasm will come through. They're not booking 19,000 seat arenas all the time. They're booking in sometimes 10,000, 8,000 seat arenas, which work to their benefit when they have these crowds that are just that enthusiastic.

37:10 Yeah.

37:11 So WWE might need to recalibrate a little bit on what arenas they go to.

37:15 Yeah, I mean, like Rampage last Friday, it looked like they were in Philadelphia, and the building looked older and not major league, and WWE just won't tolerate that. They need the ribbon boards. They need the luxury suites. They need to fit their big screen in there. But at some point, they're charging too much for tickets for a show that you can watch for free on TV. with a rerun of matches that, you know, largely people have seen, you know, the same mix and matching of talent. It's just, it doesn't feel like a sustainable formula to charge what they charge and go to the major arenas. But I, AW doesn't have the hang up about being in smaller, more intimate arenas. I remember Paul Heyman telling me back

37:54 in the, you know, originally ECW days, he's like, you know, I'm paraphrasing. He said, I'd rather draw 800 people in an 800 seat building and turn a thousand people away then draw 2,000 people in a 5,000 seat building and air that on television and make it look like we couldn't fill the building we rented. And again, that's a rough paraphrase, but like he'd rather lose money and have a packed house than have empty seats everywhere. Now WWE has turned into an art form, turning off the lights and turning on the spotlights. And the reason we got the opening to Raw we did tonight, you know, without the wide angle shot was obvious in retrospect, you know, it was a different style opening than usual, but, and

38:31 it is just one, it's, you know, One market when their team is playing in the playoffs, you know, in a competitive series. So that might have, you know, played into the attendance. But, you know, that market could have sold out the second tickets went on sale before they knew there'd be a game tonight. And it didn't. You know, it predates this game being on the schedule.

38:51 And to be fair, sorry to say this, Wade, but unlike your twins who had expectations coming into the season, the Giants didn't have expectations. So they might have thought that when they booked it. three, four, I'm sorry, it's a nice contrast, so to speak. But maybe when they booked it, they thought the Giants might fade and not be here, but the Giants are the best team in baseball, 107 games. So when you are, as a Giants fan, let me just say, when your team is that unexpected and comes to be the best team in baseball, you have your attention focused elsewhere than on things that don't concern the Giants right now.

39:26 Yeah, yep, fair point. It's next level coverage. that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage.

40:02 All right, let's go to William in San Diego right now, home of the Padres. William, welcome to the show. What did you think about tonight?

40:10 Another team that fell below expectations.

40:12 I'm sorry.

40:14 Good, William. Yeah, I was just going to ask about, I mean, I hate to be kind of repetitive because I know this topic gets brought up like every couple of weeks. But as I mentioned in one of my earlier weeks when I called about this topic, this is kind of a roller coaster thing for me. What do you guys think about the Becky Hilton so far? Because I feel like on Monday, last week on Monday, she came out at that opening segment and she was taking in the chance from the audience that she was kind of likable. Then on Friday, she was unlikable. Then tonight, they were doing those backstage promos and she... had like that hint of her former self where she caught that, you know, cutting promo, like looking down at the camera,

41:05 being kind of a badass. So I don't know. Where are you guys this week with that?

41:12 Bruce, your thoughts on the journey that Becky's been on, attempting to get booed as, you know, I don't know, you know, up against a pretty big headwind. And it seems like every week there's a little bit of a different approach that she's taking um and i think it's intentional but yeah your thoughts on this.

41:32 So let me just preface my comments by saying you know i've missed the last two weeks i paid attention through uh podcasts and written reports but with everything going on the last few weeks i'm still not through all of the podcasts from last week um that's the beauty of vips there's so much content but when you have things going on in your life that you just can't put aside it makes it hard to get through everything but they're there so i'll get to them sometime but from from what i've seen and heard um My reservations coming out of SummerSlam.

42:01 Have been addressed for the most part, I would say.

42:05 And I think that the only danger now is that Becky is writing, she gets compared to him a lot. It's just because of how the characters are portrayed. But she's writing that Stone Cold line where she might be becoming a little too cool to be a heel. And just like Roman Reigns is getting cheers and whatnot, she might straddle into that lane here soon. I think that, as you've said in your hotlines and in other podcast ways, she has enough intelligence and pro wrestling IQ to turn those back into boos when she needs them to be.

42:39 But I think here she also understands that even if she tried to be the biggest heel, Charlotte Flair is always going to get the boos, no matter what. So I think she's playing her cards right.

42:48 In this instance.

42:49 Now, what happens after Crown Jewel and post-draft with the rosters moving over, that will be the real question on, I think, or the real indication on whether or not this heel Becky Lynch is actually going to work or not.

43:05 All right. Back to you, William.

43:09 Yeah. I think my reservation comes from the fact that I don't know what you're getting out of this because it feels like you know, cocky, arrogant over the top heels are kind of a dime a dozen nowadays. And what he had before with Becky was kind of special. So I'm still not entirely sure, uh, uh, sold personally on the turn myself, but, um, moving on to another topic, uh, this is also kind of repetitive because they keep doing it every week. But I, I like you guys. I liked the whole, uh, building up the match and with the promos and everything. And they had the brawl or the mealy, uh, Uh, and it was, it was, it, it built up the anticipation for the match for me, but what, but that only kind of made it worse

43:59 once we actually got no finish. Uh, and then to make it worse, the main event didn't have a good finish either.

44:07 This tag match has become a no contest said Jimmy Smith. No, the tag match has been ruled a no contest, but, um, but who cares about precise words when you talk for a living? Um, yeah, it was a little too much. Um, Sometimes you've got to step back when you look at what's on a show and what you're going to do with what you've booked and say, all right, I can justify this segment, and I can justify what we're doing with these two, and it makes sense what we're doing with these four. Given what we've booked here, this kind of makes sense as a finish. We can have the Usos losing because we're protecting the bloodline, but we don't want Big E losing because he's not a champion who can necessarily absorb losses without that defining him down. But

44:47 Drew's going to be against Reigns soon, so we've got to protect him. So they book these matches that they don't have a good finish for, so in their mind, the good finish is, ah, Drew and Biggie can't get along. And okay, okay, you know, you can do that story every now and then, and it's not like everything you saw for the first time... when you were first a fan and thought it was really original and it really clicked with you and, you know, whether you're a kid or whatever, it was done before. And it was done before dozens, if not hundreds of times in all kinds of territories. So there's nothing really original in wrestling. The issue though, is, is you don't want to do it all in the same show over and over. And, and

45:23 you also, you don't want to do it over and over, you know, month after month where people can just see it coming ahead of time. And, and, So that's kind of the larger issue is it's not that they can't sit here and go, well, what would you do different? Well, it's not that I would do anything different with what you booked. That's the issue. Although I would and I can make my argument for it. But that's not the point.

45:47 The point is why did you book a show where you know in your mind the logical thing that you always do is going to be overdone within a three-hour show over and over. You have to have some– there should be some thought to, okay, because we're not going to have a finish here and here. Let's make sure that we have a good, and sometimes it seems like they do this, a long, good competitive match with an unexpected, satisfying, clean finish. And let's make sure that we have some likable characters on the show doing who you want to root for if we're going to have a show full of normally people that we want you to root for who are going to be acting childish. So there just isn't that let's step back and take a look at

46:21 the whole canvas. And I think this was an example of that harming the show. This is an example of a show that gets harmed. by not stepping back and looking at the canvas, not only of this episode, but sort of the pattern week to week of what WWE does and how things that would normally be effective are now groan-inducing. I mean, you could hear the crowd groan.

46:39 It was one of the few times you could hear the crowd tonight. You know, they groaned at the finishes of the two big tag matches on this show.

46:46 You could see the ref counting Big E down. And when he was at three, I knew that it was going to be a count-out. And it just, you know, and when they started the show with the Uso... When they started the show with the Usos coming out, you knew that there was going to be a tag match coming between those four. And the other thing is sometimes they try to get too creative with their finishes. And, you know, I've said this before. You said it many times.

47:12 Zach Haydorn has talked about it on his On the Canvas podcast, VIP exclusive, so go VIP. But sometimes the best finishes, the best stories are the simple ones like A to B. And sometimes that means having a clean finish, and just living with the consequences, which, honestly, for the most part, I don't think fans take clean finishes as necessarily devastating to the loser as WWE would like us to think they are, if that makes sense.

47:44 Well, and if they had everybody losing, you know, semi-regularly with only a few protected exceptions, and I think Roman Reigns is a good exception. I don't think Becky Lynch, for instance, should be getting pinned in tag matches left and right.

47:55 Okay.

47:56 You know, I think you should go through stretches of time and they can vary by wrestler where wrestlers not just, you know, losing. I think it's worth protecting certain people. But the problem is, is so few wrestlers do jobs and they're so clearly lower card that you that the that. that if somebody who isn't a lower card wrestler loses, it seems like they're being buried because it's so rare.

48:20 And there's sort of that sort of meta consciousness that I think fans have where they go, oh God, he just lost and he wasn't distracted by someone on the outside. Boy, they must not like him or her anymore. They must be burying this person. They must have done something wrong. And that's just, when you get to the point where you're booking a wrestling company and fans see anyone who's not the bottom third of the roster losing as a sign that they're being buried, You're doing something wrong. You just are. So, you know, it's a sport. People are going to win and lose. And almost everybody's going to lose sometimes. And that should have meaning. Anyway, William, anything else you want to follow up on or bring up?

48:59 And then we've got Nico from San Francisco holding on to tell us what it's like in the building after.

49:03 Yeah, sure. Just as I mentioned, it was especially frustrating because they did such a good job building up the match with the promos. And also it was kind of, there's kind of an anecdotal and related personally to me, but they had the commercial with, with the, Oh, here are the live events coming to, to these towns. And they had the tagline, it hits different live. And it's like, what hits different life? Like, what are you guys selling?

49:32 We people pay and they go there to see these matches, but they don't, they don't get a finish.

49:38 They don't get anything out of it.

49:39 And it was especially frustrating to me watching Tonight Live because they announced the Friday, the Super Smackdown or whatever they're calling it. And it's coming to Ontario, which is about two hours here from San Diego. And I was actually kind of excited thinking, oh, I could probably go to that. You know, see Sasha versus Becky. That could be fun to see Brock or anything. But like, why am I going to pay in? And where's my time driving there? I'm not going to get anything out of it.

50:11 I'm just going to get screwed up my money.

50:13 Cool.

50:15 Yeah, go ahead, Bruce.

50:17 I'm just saying that that's a really big indictment that someone doesn't want to make a relatively– I would assume two-hour drive isn't that bad to go see them saying that it would be a waste of their.

50:28 Time and money.

50:28 That's just– for a show that they're hyping as a big show of the year too, that's a pretty big indictment.

50:34 Yeah.

50:34 All right, William. Appreciate the call. Good topics.

50:39 Real quickly, Wade, you were talking about on the finishes. Outside of Baszler's finish, the one other relatively clean finish tonight was Jinder Mahal beating Kofi Kingston. The person you give that kind of clean finish to is Jinder Mahal?

50:55 Come on now. That's just deflating. Especially with Kofi Kingston there. It just doesn't leave a good taste in your mouth.

51:05 No, no.

51:07 And then you're like, oh, Jinder's a badass. And then he goes sits on a throne and acts like a child, you know, posing in a big chair, you know, that you see on the side of the road sometimes.

51:17 All right.

51:19 Or maybe you don't. You don't know what I'm talking about. But whatever. They exist. And they're fun when you're seven.

51:24 All right.

51:26 Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.

51:36 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

51:49 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Up next, Nico, on-site correspondent from San Francisco. So, Nico, we're talking about two-hour car rides, and you get a 20-minute bike ride, it sounds like, to the arena. How was that?

52:29 Yeah, I mean, it's the upside of having the Chase Center be, at least for now, the arena that the WWE goes to in the Bay Area. I don't know how long, given the attendance tonight and how low it was, I don't know how long. we are for that role, but, um, it's definitely convenient for, for me.

52:49 Um, so I saw WrestleTix reported on Twitter, $ 39.

52:52 95.

52:52 Uh, if I'm right, uh, the attendance, did it seem like about 4,000 people in the building? Did it look about one fifth full compared to, you know, if there was just every seat in the place, including the floor seats, it was open and available.

53:06 Yeah.

53:07 I mean, that sounds very right on, on the money. Uh, uh, of the, I mean, none of the upper deck and about, uh, three fifths or so of the lower, lower bowl.

53:20 And, um, yeah, I mean, it's.

53:24 As, uh, overall week of a show as it was, I think that the, most of the, the, the energy coming out was positive. It was just, people were excited. I mean, when you're at that low of a number, I think you're getting a lot of really enthusiastic, sort of diehard fans and families with kids. And they wanted to cheer, but the structure of the product right now makes it so difficult. I mean, so all but a handful of the matches, the wrestlers come out, people are energized by the music, and then they cut to a commercial break and the energy dies. So many of the matches had people who either weren't clearly.

54:08 A heel or face or face against face.

54:10 And people didn't know, you know, they, they wanted to get into it, but the product was designed in such a way that it was so tough.

54:18 Yeah.

54:18 I mean, being in a building with, for a pro wrestling show that confusing or, or booked in a way to create ambivalence or conflict, conflicted emotions that just sort of offset offset. It's just like, it just, yeah, that had to be quite the experience to not have like, I mean, like who did you just feel like the crowd had permission without obstacle to cheer and root for and take joy in seeing when, when did that happen tonight? Yeah.

54:56 I mean, I guess Xavier to a certain extent, although Rick Shay, you know, is a face as well. I mean, Jeff Hardy, I think, you know, I was, I was, there were a few moments where I left and didn't hear, but I think that Jeff Hardy had the loudest pop of the night and, you know, it makes sense given he is so consistently presented as a person who does, I mean, I guess there are some exceptions, but he is generally presented as a person who does good things and is, you know, has a constitution as a character. And, and it showed, I would say Orton probably after that, um, And then, you know, the Usos was the strangest thing because they're, as far as I know, never introduced as being from San Francisco, except when they're here. But you'd

55:41 think that it's a little odd for them to mention it when they're up against the two biggest faces in the brand.

55:49 Yeah, I mean, this isn't a local house show. You're on national television and you would want Big A and Drew to be cheered because Drew's going to be the baby face against the Usos cousin, Roman Reigns. So why play into that?

56:03 Yeah, this could be a way that because of the shares that Reigns is starting to get, maybe they're starting to tinker with moving the bloodline face.

56:11 And this was one way to see if they could get a face response in their hometown.

56:15 And I don't know if they were born there, but I know that they were raised there. And I think Rikishi still maintains residence in San Francisco. So they are San Fran boys for the most part. And To hear them at least get that kind of reaction from the hometown crowd, it at least warmed my heart. I like seeing that for them because I think it's also a testament to the work that especially Jay has done throughout the last, what, 18 months?

56:38 I will say this, though. I don't know how much pride they should have in drawing fewer than 4,000 fans. I mean, I'm not saying that Raw advertised them ahead of time and built the show around them because they didn't. But, you know, in a sense, the criticism's not fair because they're not on the Raw brand and it was... you know, a match thrown together.

56:56 So I kind of, they won't even advertise for the show. I don't think.

56:59 Yeah. So I kind of have to withdraw that criticism now that I think about it. Um, if we're talking about the women's match that was promoted, you know, for days and days, that that'd be different. But, um, in a sense, it was more of like a little, you know, a little gift for fans who know, who know that.

57:14 And if you didn't, they told you, um, Nico.

57:17 Yeah.

57:17 Uh, just, so you said Jeff Hardy got the best pop of the night, uh, How would you compare Drew and Big E in terms of the responses that they got as much as you can isolate it when they were separate or how crowds reacted when they were playing off each other?

57:31 Yeah, I mean, anytime there was an opportunity to boo Drew, people got into it. You know, if he was doing anything that sort of crossed the line to Big E, but the crowd took the opportunity to jump in. But then on the other hand, when he did the nip up at the end and was sort of on a roll, they got.

57:53 Behind him again.

57:55 Both of them, you know, I think my sense is the crowd liked both of them, but because they're in a program against each other and there's not really one, there's not really a clear sort of preference among the two people sat on their hands at moments when otherwise they would be cheering both of them.

58:16 I would say that should not be the goal of a wrestling company. That's not a victory.

58:24 Yeah.

58:25 And that opening segment, I think, came off really well. But then you got the longish backstage with Randy and Riddle. And then along Mustafa Mansoor entry, a commercial, the announcer's shot. um, a short match and then into, um, Shana and, uh, and Dana Brooke.

58:50 And that, that was a slog and.

58:52 And the crowd, I think it was hard to come back from that stretch.

58:57 It was, uh, yeah, just.

59:02 Yeah.

59:02 We, we got the sense, Nico, the crowd was groaning at times, like just collective groans or the wind being taken out of their sails where they're, have a top two list or a top five list of where that happened that jumps out to you as you were kind of experiencing in the building the energy level amongst the fans there?

59:24 Yeah, I heard you mention that, and I think there was some groaning at the– at the finish of the main event. But really I thought, I mean, as I looked around, people had smiles on their faces. They left energized. The mood outside the arena was good. I didn't get the sense that people were like, you know, throwing down the drink.

59:48 Like, what are they putting on for us? I think it was that, you know.

59:53 They, they wanted it to be more, they wanted to have moments to get into it and they were just too few and far between. Um, the, you know, I think people like if there were, if, if the Sasha and Bianca infighting didn't confuse and already sort of confusing storyline, I think that, that the brawls and stuff would have been, uh, in, in that match would have been, um, gotten more energy out of the crowd, but it was such a confusing, you know, set of storylines happening. You just, you know, Like, what was there to cheer or boo? You know, it was just madness.

1:00:34 Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily casts on Spotify? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade,

1:01:10 The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch. and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. Bruce, jump in with a question for Nico.

1:01:44 Sure.

1:01:44 So earlier you and Wade were discussing how outside of apathy, the last emotion you want to leave your or the other emotion you don't want to leave your fans with is ambivalence. And I think the only segment tonight that really didn't have that ambivalent feeling was Bobby Lashley's promo. how did his pro there were some wet chance, but I think he, he performed pretty admirably for someone who's not, you know, known for his promo work. I think he performed admirably through that, but how did you receive his promo and how do you think the fans received particularly at the punctuation of his promo at the end?

1:02:17 Unfortunately, that was when I was taking my kids to the restaurant.

1:02:22 I didn't leave because of him. I didn't know he was going to be out there, but I, but I.

1:02:26 Missed his, his promo.

1:02:27 Unfortunately.

1:02:28 Hey, kids are important.

1:02:29 So, Yeah.

1:02:32 It was my son's first show. He leaned over near the end and said, why did the bad, why are the bad guys winning every match? Wow.

1:02:41 I wish I could tell you. Well, I mean, you mentioned, uh, but they, they, otherwise they had a good time.

1:02:47 Yeah.

1:02:48 Well, you mentioned Xavier, you know, maybe being a baby face earlier, but Xavier turned heel when he started playing the trombone in people's faces and ricochet clearly the baby face in that match. So, I'm not, there's nothing about Xavier's act that, that rings baby face to me these days. My God, is he obnoxious, but to each their own, I get it's, it's a taste thing, but I have him pretty high on my list of wrestling personalities on air personalities that I would, I would least want to be stuck in an elevator with. Um, and Kofi's not far behind. Unfortunately, he seems to be competing for the most obnoxious of the, uh, you know, try to steal this, steal the obnoxious, uh, award from, from Xavier when they're poor,

1:03:24 poor Kevin Patrick's just trying to ask him a reasonable question.

1:03:27 Uh, yeah.

1:03:29 I do have another question.

1:03:30 Yeah, Bruce, go ahead.

1:03:30 If you can't answer that one.

1:03:31 So, uh, how did the fans, cause to me, when I was, when I was watching the show, it sounded like Riddle received.

1:03:39 The loudest pop of the night to me.

1:03:41 Uh, that's just what came through my screen, but how do people and fans, how do they react to him in particular? How do they react to his foils plan? That wasn't really a plan to begin with.

1:03:57 Yeah, I thought the crowd seemed to like him. They were paying close attention to the promo segment with him and Randy. He did get a big cheer, but it wasn't... With Jeff Hardy, people were jumping out of their seat. They were standing up, and I think Charlotte Flair had a bit of that too, where people were.

1:04:25 Uh, you know, popping out of their seat, I guess that, that would be the action that, that illustrated their enthusiasm more so than, than they did for riddle. But, um, yeah, I think he was, um, people wanted to know what he was going to do and they were behind him.

1:04:41 Um, it was, that was the one.

1:04:42 Bit of a stagecraft that was sort of interesting to see. I guess it's not too unique, but just ahead of that match, whereas typically during the commercial breaks, the lights would come down like 30%. Um, Before that match, they came down to 5%. And about 20 people, all dressed in black, walked down from the back to the ring.

1:05:02 Presumably in there somewhere was Randy Orton. And they sort of clustered right in front of the announcers. And I guess sort of camouflaging him as he gets under the ring. But I was sort of curious what would result from all that.

1:05:16 And then he popped up in the next segment.

1:05:20 The trouble they go to, to, you know, lead to an in-house surprise, the techniques that they use, the stagecraft, as you put it. Did Dewdrop, speaking of lights going on, did she dance the whole time? Like, what did she do for like the six minutes from her ring entrance to where then they came back and she's still like dancing to her music on TV?

1:05:36 Oh, God.

1:05:39 She, she, I mean, for most of it, she was, she was just chilling in the ring and the music was down or they were playing commercial or something, but They did come back and play the raw theme for probably a minute before it switched back to her theme. And she didn't, I think, have a sense of when the cameras came on because she did dance.

1:06:03 Through the whole minute of the raw theme.

1:06:06 So she was dancing for quite a while. I respected her commitment to it.

1:06:13 Well, and she just might like to dance. Why stand when you can dance? Why stand when you can dance? So your seven-year-old daughter, your four-year-old son, whether your four-year-old son had been there before, just anything to share as far as their reactions to the show? I mean, being age four, that big screen TV and the music and the energy in the building, I mean, that had to be– I'm sure he'll remember it– well, I don't know.

1:06:36 Maybe he won't remember it forever depending on when long-term memory kicks in for kids. But hopefully this is one of those earliest memories he has.

1:06:43 Yeah, they really– I mean, they do not watch the show– week to week. Uh, they're not, they don't know the storylines or anything. Not, I mean, I'd be happy to have them watch it, but, um, I go to bed too early.

1:06:57 It's, it's aimed at them. It's aimed at four year olds.

1:06:59 So a.

1:07:02 Lot of the book.

1:07:03 Uh, so, Oh, say again.

1:07:07 I said a lot of the booking is aimed at four year olds. So four and.

1:07:09 Seven is specifically aimed at four year olds.

1:07:12 Yeah.

1:07:14 Yeah.

1:07:15 But they, but despite not knowing the storyline, they, of course they, um, the, the lights, as you say, like the whole, the whole setup and, and, and the chase center, I mean, the screen is just massive, you know, uh, the whole facility is brand new. And, and so it's, it's, um, they went, they left being more of a fan of, uh, WWE than they came in. So I think in that respect, it was a success for the, for the company.

1:07:44 Was there anything that bored them or anything in particular that surprised you that they were really into on either extreme?

1:07:55 My daughter, early on, I was going to go grab a drink during the Riddle match, and Omos was frightening enough to her that she asked me not to leave.

1:08:07 While he was around.

1:08:09 And then.

1:08:14 I, I would say, um, I mean, the rest of the show, they were just, they were pretty much keyed in the whole time. They were, you know, interested, engaged and wanting to know, you know, who's the, who do we root for and what's this person's story.

1:08:29 And so, yeah, I mean, you know, I guess, I guess that's a positive thing, but, um.

1:08:37 Unfortunately like that demographic of the seven and under is, is, uh, when that's all you're appealing to, that's a problem.

1:08:46 So was there anything that happened before Rob went on the air and after Rob went off the air for the live audience?

1:08:55 I came in right as the show got started. So I don't know what happened before. And, uh, know, they wrapped up. No sort of final words. Biggie stood in the ring for a second with the.

1:09:05 Belt and then rolled out.

1:09:07 And the announcer said, thanks. Thanks for coming.

1:09:09 Wow.

1:09:10 And no word on the next.

1:09:15 No mention of a subsequent Bay Area event.

1:09:18 Uh visit so we'll see.

1:09:20 Yeah you would think a market that draws poorly they'd you know work extra hard to kind of make make the fans who attended like say oh god after rob went off the air we got this match and it was great you know and yeah i mean it's just like they're just waving the white flag on on that building if they're not giving them something extra for show that and it ended with a non-finish and ended so early you know there's plenty i mean i guess you can head out and go see go see another event after this that You know, because that's earlier than most.

1:09:49 I don't.

1:09:51 I don't really understand why they are running, choosing to run in San Francisco rather than in Oakland, you know, which is 15 minute.

1:10:00 Drive if there's no traffic.

1:10:02 And, you know, I think the demographics of the East Bay are so much more. It's more working class, more diverse community. I think much more their audience than the.

1:10:13 Increasingly white and elite.

1:10:16 You know, San Francisco. And it's, it's, it's bizarre. I mean, just the lure, I guess, of this new stadium or, you know, and I don't know what the, you know, the financials of running in the Chase Center versus the Oracle Arena in, in Oakland are, but it is bizarre that they're choosing to run here when it's, I mean, I, I'm curious to see if they'll change things up next time around.

1:10:42 Yeah. I mean, I think they get wrapped up in, in an old, mindset, which is, you know, we're pro wrestling and nobody respects us. But if we can have a drone shot or helicopter shot of this shiny new building, the newest building in the NBA, where the Golden State Warriors play and at San Francisco, it's like they get wrapped up in that imagery. And in the end, what counts is being close to the fans who want to pay to see your product and having a building with more fans and more energy. So the TV show comes across better. I think having a red hot crowd in a quote B market is in an older building is, has way more benefits than being in, you know, this cosmopolitan shiny, you know, building that people like you said,

1:11:26 aren't nearby. It's not near the people who actually want to go or are more likely to go. So, I mean, maybe the lesson was learned, but I still think like a dark match afterwards that has a nice satisfying finish would have, would have made some sense, you know? Um, anyway, yeah, I don't know what, what that means as far as their return, but not announcing a return date, probably, means they're going to think for a while before going back there.

1:11:51 Yeah. And, yeah, not much to add there.

1:11:57 I think you're right.

1:12:00 On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when NXT ends. It's just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg, and alongside my co-host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks NXT. We go live on the PWTorch YouTube channel about 15 minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises. And we take your questions What was the best part of the show for you? Yeah, what was the best part? Like, what are you going to remember fondly about the experience.

1:12:45 You can bring up your kids and their experience, but also kind of separate from that for you personally.

1:12:50 Um, I think the, I mean, it was, it was pretty slim pickings on my part. I, I enjoyed the Xavier ricochet match. Um, and, uh, I, you know, I should have had a better, and, and I, yeah, gosh, I mean, I, I think for me it was, um, even when I brought my daughter last time, two years ago, she was, she was still a little too young to really engage in it. And so I guess for me, it is going to be that, that experience with the kids and seeing them, you know, their eyes light up.

1:13:26 Yeah.

1:13:28 But, you know, and it's just, it's nice after two years, you know, I know, well, I know you wait, I don't know if you both have been to live shows since the pandemic, but, or, you know, since crowds came back, but it's nice to be, in community with fellow fans.

1:13:46 Yeah.

1:13:46 That was really nice too.

1:13:48 Did, uh, did Shayna Baszler get cheered at all? What was the crowd reaction for her?

1:13:53 I don't think people.

1:13:54 Knew how to react. And I mean, yeah. And it's tough. Cause I mean, yeah, you see, you're brutalizing people.

1:14:06 Um, but then Dana Brooke, I don't think they're, you know, they're just, she's not going to elicit a lot of sympathy and, and, uh, yeah. So it, people were just flat.

1:14:20 I love Dana Brooke yelling at, at Shana after she attempted a post-match attack going, that was uncalled for. That was uncalled for. I don't know. She might be my new favorite wrestler after that. Uncalled for, uncalled for. Way to tell her, Dana. Um, did you see any AWT shirts? And, uh, did you notice, uh, like WWE t-shirts that were the most popular, I guess, head of the tables, the t-shirts I noticed.

1:14:47 Yeah, I, I didn't, I mean, I, the belts and, um, they were selling a San Francisco three 16 sort of skull shirt and, and, uh, saw quite a number of those, um, didn't really see too much other merch. I mean, I said, yeah, you know, people had jackets on, it's been a cold night here. So I saw some AJ style shirts, a few things here and there, but no, I mean, I was surprised actually that I didn't see, um, a lot of Roman shirts. Um, and then nothing AW right when I rolled up to the arena, someone was blaring, um, uh, I don't know.

1:15:29 I'm blanking on it.

1:15:29 CM Punk's theme, uh, called the personality, but that was the only AW anything that I heard, uh, or saw tonight to be fair to.

1:15:38 Be fair cult of personality is not cm punk's theme song cult of personality is itself a great song uh that was well before his theme song so let's just make that point clear here.

1:15:52 Yes exactly uh bruce.

1:15:56 Any anything else you want to add before we let nico go here sure uh you asked one of my questions on merchandise my other only question for you nico is and correct me if i'm wrong here but Didn't the Warriors win their championships while still at the Oracle.

1:16:09 Arena, Oracle Center?

1:16:15 Yes, that is true, yes.

1:16:18 So there will be more history involved in actually going to Oakland and being in Oracle Arena than being here. But as Wade was talking about, you were talking about too, it's that glitz and glamour they go for, not necessarily. They're just not with the times, it seems like.

1:16:36 Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they're I don't know the sort of economics of, you know, running stadiums at all. So I don't know if that impacts things. And I don't know, like with the satellite technology, how much it benefits them to be in a stadium that, you know, sort of electronically is more modernized. But I don't know. I assume, you know, they're going so many of their their markets that they're going to are not.

1:17:03 brand new, you know, uh, super high end stadium. So I'm sure they can do it fine from wherever, you know? So, yeah, I, I think it goes back to the points you were making earlier about their desire to be in a big city with a shiny new arena.

1:17:20 Yeah.

1:17:21 All right. Uh, very good, Nico. Thank you for joining us today and tell us about your experience at the building tonight.

1:17:30 Yeah.

1:17:30 Great to talk with both of you.

1:17:31 Thank you.

1:17:32 Have a good one. Lots gone on since we last talked, huh?

1:17:37 Yeah, exactly.

1:17:40 But, you know, glad I've been listening to you both throughout it all.

1:17:46 And you've kept me.

1:17:49 Able to keep my mind off some of the worst things that have gone on.

1:17:52 Since we last spoke.

1:17:52 So I appreciate that a lot.

1:17:55 Thank you both.

1:17:56 Yeah, excellent. Thanks a lot, Nico. Appreciate it.

1:18:00 Cheers.

1:18:01 Bye bye.

1:18:02 All right. Oh, Jane Michigan dropped off. But Nick in Brattleboro is up next. If you want to give us a call, you still can if you're joining us live here. Our number is 347-215-8558. That's 347-215-8558. Dynamite is moved from Wednesday to Saturday this week. So we'll have a special Saturday post show after Dynamite. So tune in for that.

1:18:28 We will have AEW related content for you here on the post show. Wednesday night. So be sure to hit refresh and check that out. We haven't fully decided what yet, but we'll give you your Wednesday night slash Thursday morning AW fix, even if Dynamite is getting bumped due to uh some other sporting events on tnt and you can still email us if you want to if that works better wade keller podcast at pwtorch.com If you're listening to us on the Apple podcast app on Spotify or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five star rating.

1:19:02 It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening to our shows. And please click that five star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening. All right, Nick, thanks so much for holding patiently through all that. You're Your top thoughts on Raw tonight. What did you think?

1:19:29 Oh, no, great. Congrats to Nico. Great guest for you. I just had to hold on one second. I'm having a mealy outside my door here. But I can't wait to listen to the hotline tomorrow.

1:19:48 Should we just discuss Jimmy Smith now? Should we just discuss him now?

1:19:52 Well, what have you got to say? Nick, it's your fault. If you had other things to say, you're going to have to wait because Bruce really is itching to bring up Jimmy Smith. No, it's Bruce who wants to bring him up. I mean, I do too, but I'm trying to be polite.

1:20:06 So I think Chenault was my breaking point with Jimmy Smith. He won.

1:20:11 I don't know if you noticed the very first transition he tried to do to Chenault, to Shayna Baszler. He did it too early, and they were still showing, I think, highlights of They were about to show the updated King of the Ring tournament bracket after Xavier Woods had won, and he tried to shift to Shayna Baszler's video.

1:20:27 And then he had to regroup.

1:20:29 Himself after Graves went to the graphic and then do it again. The other thing, though, is he's been doing this for a while now, but I understand why, and technically it's sound, to have transitions to your next segment happen. Except his transitions sound like those transitions I would write between paragraphs in junior high and high school. It's just not at a level it should be. It's just too forced and too– it's just too forced and it doesn't feel natural. And those transitions, again, understand why he does that.

1:21:03 It just doesn't flow well. It doesn't seem to flow at all with how the show is actually run. And just a lot of the things– that you brought up already about what he was saying tonight. It just, it's been a good run. I said, give him three to six months. It's been longer than that.

1:21:22 It just, it's not working very well.

1:21:24 He, he needed some time at NXT, more time at NXT to develop. And, you know, again, I come from a, I have a broadcasting degree from a broadcasting school named after Edward R.

1:21:33 Morrow. I know the training. I understand all this. It's just not working with him in WWE.

1:21:38 So were you, were you trained? Bruce, on emphasizing random words that don't sound like human beings who understand the words they're saying?

1:21:47 No.

1:21:48 Well, one, off a prompter, you're supposed to read the prompter almost as is and understand where your.

1:21:53 Emphasis is supposed to go.

1:21:54 But two, you're supposed to talk as a normal human being and emphasize when things are actually– an exclamation and not just because they're a random word you want to make.

1:22:04 Like I noticed that early on when, you know, he had that over-reliance on, are you kidding me? And he didn't say, are you kidding me? He'd be like, are you kidding me? And it's like, what, what, what, what? Nobody says that. Nobody says, are you kidding me? Cause it makes it seem like you're not surprised someone's kidding.

1:22:20 You just can't believe they're kidding you. That's, that's, that's what, you know, like the emphasis on words is, has in it it's there's a implication that comes along with the word you emphasize you know you can say i can't believe you showed up today or you could say i can't believe you showed up today and those are two different things and jimmy smith like he was talking about great uh he was talking about jinder mahal and he goes you know jinder has a story past that's like what what why did you just act like you bit into an onion instead of an apple by mistake when you said past like You know, he has a story past.

1:22:58 It's like, stop it. Just be a normal human. Like Tom Phillips wasn't human. He was programmed and he sounded more human as a robot announcer than Jimmy Smith, who I'm quite sure is an actual human being.

1:23:10 So you and Todd Martin last week were discussing how Vic Joseph was a perfect WWE announcer and they just got rid of him on ceremoniously. Jimmy Smith tonight also busted out the good old fashioned.

1:23:21 There it is.

1:23:21 When Becky Lynch hit her manhandle slam instead of actually naming the movie.

1:23:26 Say anything more than that.

1:23:27 And he did that for the boom drop Kofi's boom drop.

1:23:29 Yeah.

1:23:30 There it is.

1:23:30 That's all he said.

1:23:31 That's all he said.

1:23:32 Yeah. I mean, there, what is dude go just, you've got six days a week, maybe five minus travel. You can have two days off like everyone else. The other three watch old programming, just start watch. It's all there on the network. You can listen to some announcing and learn the moves and have something to add by this point.

1:23:50 And I mean, Graves, you know, when Graves gave a hard time about me Lee, instead of melee, uh, I mean, you can tell Graves is, I'd say, I don't want to presume to know anything. It comes across as if Graves is doing, it takes all his willpower. He's like someone trying to quit smoking and they're just like, I just, oh, I'm craving the nicotine. He just, it takes all his willpower to not just like throw his headset off and walk away. I mean, it's just, Jimmy's not, he's just, and what's worse is he just seems like, oblivious to it all like he just it's like he has no concept that he's he's as bad as he is in the ways that he's bad um one other thing and this goes to what i noticed very early with him

1:24:33 and i just don't think it's acceptable when your job is to communicate and add to the drama that's unfolding in front of you wrestlers work very hard to make their moves look good And they work really hard on their ring gear. There's production people work really hard to make the entrance music sound good and the graphics look good.

1:24:50 Everybody's doing their job. Your job as an announcer is to enhance all that, but through descriptive words and all that. And he said, turnaround is fair play. No, it's turnabout is fair play. And it's like, well, what's the big deal? People slip up. I slip up. I make mistakes in my report. I make typos. I mishear things. And it's fine if mistakes happen but like from early on it's clear he just doesn't have a broad vocabulary and he doesn't have a priest he doesn't under he misuses words and he says things that aren't things and this was i was like watching for a little while i'm like hey this is a he's not he doesn't sound like he's trying to lift a car as he talks for no reason it's like maybe he's relaxing a little when

1:25:28 he's going to get in the group i always have hope for him i'm not rooting against him and i really don't want to go on these rants every week i really don't but he's on your number one cable show And he's saying dumb things constantly. He doesn't use words well. He doesn't have a broad vocabulary. He misuses phrases.

1:25:44 He doesn't know wrestlers' finishing moves. And his transitions, as you pointed out, Bruce, are bad. There's things about him that aren't good that I'm not even noticing that you're pointing out. And he doesn't have chemistry with his announce team. And Byron Saxton and Corey Grace have to do all the heavy lifting. And it's like, yes.

1:26:00 So, all right. I know.

1:26:02 You pulled the string. Go ahead, Bruce.

1:26:05 I think it was real telling that Byron Saxon was the one who did all the hype announcements for the matches. They put graphics up for a crown jewel. It was only Byron Saxon. It wasn't Jimmy Smith. And usually it's your lead announcer who is hyping those matches for the viewers.

1:26:20 Yep.

1:26:20 All right. Got me going again.

1:26:24 Sorry, Nick.

1:26:25 Sorry.

1:26:26 Sorry, Wade.

1:26:26 Yeah.

1:26:28 I thought it's a great lesson, I got to tell you.

1:26:31 I was going to save it for the hotline, and Bruce was like, we got to talk about it. I'm like, all right, if you insist.

1:26:39 If I can just add, because I've been in broadcasting most of my life, I was, you know, college radio and all this sort of stuff. And one of the things that I sense when I listen to Jimmy Smith is that I don't think he's read a lot. And as weird as that sounds, to be a good vocalizer and such, you have to be well-read and understand the power of words. I mean, if you read Hemingway, then you can talk and say something that will engender in someone an emotional reaction, which is what you want to do in broadcasting.

1:27:30 Just subscribe to The Athletic. They've hired some of the best sports writers in the country. And just read. And pay attention to their use of language. They think about the words they use. They think about which word they use and how they use it. And then they often, not as much as in the past, unfortunately, because of budget cuts, have an editor who helps them. And they go, hey, I know what you're going for here. Here's a better way to say it. Or here's some ambiguity. Or here's This was a little, you know, this, this, the way you said this is, is, is a little clunky and maybe this is a better way. And you refine that read good. And because I think Jimmy would enjoy reading good sports writers. I'm not sure about Hemingway. Um, I

1:28:04 don't know him well enough to know, but I know he said, I know, I don't mean that to sound like a day. I just know he's into sports. So I, a more practical thing is go read the athletic, read Britt Robson, go, you know, he's a brilliant Timberwolves writer. Um, and just fall in love, fall in love with the English language because what wrestlers do is, Their outfits, the costumes, the personalities, the bombast, the conflict. There are so many great words that people are going to know what you're saying.

1:28:29 This isn't about get out the thesaurus and say things that people don't say in the regular world. But there's so many great words that apply to the show. he's watching. And you're right, Nick. I've thought that. I haven't said it because I don't know. But what you're saying makes sense. He comes across as somebody who just isn't all that curious or fascinated with English language. And I just think a wrestling announcer whose job is to bring three hours a week to a telecast and enhance what everybody works hard wrestlers are getting up early going to the gym they're lifting their weights uh the production team is is coming up with all the graphics and it's like if he can't be bothered to know what a boom drop

1:29:09 is and he can't i mean i just it does it it obviously comes across because i i harp on it a lot and i know you know some people are like getting fast forward right now but it it does it does irritate me i find it disrespectful to the wrestlers that somebody got hired who doesn't love the english language enough to have, as I've said, and I don't mean this as an insult because fourth graders are, I've had nice, intelligent conversations with fourth graders. But there is a limit to the vocabulary and it should continue to grow into your 20s. And it just seems like he's not even at that level in the sense that he's misusing words a lot and he's saying things that aren't things. So, all right. Sorry, everyone come through.

1:29:45 Even if he doesn't want to read.

1:29:46 I'll get off.

1:29:48 Even if he doesn't want to read, there.

1:29:49 Are a lot of.

1:29:50 Bruce, go ahead, and then I'm going to call through.

1:29:52 There are a lot of, good, great, non-PWTorch podcasts out there that also use the English language very effectively. I just finished This Land, for example, from Crooked Media on the fight that a lot of conservative groups are doing right now against the Indian Child Welfare Act. And and how they use language and stories in that podcast to really create an emotional tie between the listener and the podcast.

1:30:19 So there are other ways he can, if he's not a reader, that he can improve his language. But as you were saying, he just seems to lack that curiosity that is needed to... And he was a fine announcer in MMA. He just needs to have more descriptive and creative language when in pro wrestling.

1:30:40 Yeah, and he needs to know the product better, and they hired somebody who doesn't know the product very well.

1:30:46 Hey, everyone. Longtime PWTorch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there. Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast. Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas

1:31:27 of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just cover the news. I don't just riff on the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades of studying this industry and talking one-on-one with dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show so you understand not just what's happening, but the context of why. Get ahead of the news. Get ahead of the pack with Ratican Worldwide only at PWTorch VIP.

1:32:05 Nick, back to you.

1:32:07 Well, yeah. Yeah, no, real quick. I mean, MMA is different because the action in the ring is they're telling a violent story just by their actions. Whereas in wrestling, the announcers are such a huge part of the story being told. And with that, I'll move over to Jinder Mahal. I would accept that Jinder won, not because he's an idiot.

1:32:41 He might not be. But I really wanted to see Kofi versus Xavier. I mean, talk about a story that could be told, and they could start out the beginning of the show where the two will be sitting there going, okay, we're going to go at it, good luck, blah, blah, blah. And then throughout the night, they could have a separate interview with Kofi saying, I really want this, I want this, and then culminate in that being the end. And that could have been such a great story. And now we're going to... I have a feeling Jinder's going to win the whole thing. Just because, you know, it's a heel gimmick and he's it. Besides, well, Xavier. But, you know, I have a feeling Jinder's going to win King of the Ring. And it upsets me.

1:33:38 Bruce, what do you think of the King of the Ring brackets?

1:33:43 How do I put this? I mean, as I said earlier, I don't think these.

1:33:48 These concurring tournaments have really done enough to draw any fan interest, especially if Xavier Woods loses next week to Jinder Mahal. Fans of the New Day and fans of Woods have been on the train for Keating Xavier Woods for a long time. And so a lot of them just want that to happen so they can see it.

1:34:08 And it's what Woods really wants more than anything for his career.

1:34:11 So, you know, if that happens, good for him.

1:34:13 The thing with what happened tonight, and it goes back to what happened with Natalya too, is both of these stories had the buildup of, well, we might see Woods versus Kingston.

1:34:25 Oh, what kind of match would that be?

1:34:26 And Patrick asking them twice in the back in Gorilla about who would have the advantage, what would the match look like? and then with Natalya about being so important to her family and her legacy and her career, and then they both just unceremoniously lose, right? And that turned me off a bit because I got invested, as Nick was saying, in the thought and the possibility of Woods versus Kingston, of Natalya becoming Queen's Crown and continuing the legacy of the Hart family. And then in the first round, just like that, it's gone. And those were the biggest draws for me to the tournament.

1:34:59 It wasn't... only Woods winning. It wasn't Shayna Baszler being in the tournament.

1:35:03 It was the stories they had built leading up to these matches that they just unceremoniously discarded as if they were yesterday's trash.

1:35:13 For lack of a better term or lack of a better phrase.

1:35:15 And to me, I honestly, maybe because it's happening at Crown Jewel and I already have an aversion to anything that happens at Crown Jewel, I don't have any interest in what happens.

1:35:29 For the tournaments and i'm sorry that.

1:35:32 That's not what wwe should should be engendering in their fans right now and i cover the show so i have to watch it but if i wasn't then i wouldn't pay attention to it at all to them at all i should say.

1:35:47 Yeah bruce um um i've spoken with wade about this uh you know the the crown jewel is my feel i i'm not gonna watch it You know, I just, it's not going to be watched.

1:36:00 Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure referenced it earlier. One good point they made that I hadn't thought of in a while, but I remember thinking about it a ways back, pre-pandemic, is they never show highlights of what happens there. Like, it's the money grab, and then it didn't happen. Like, it's like the Performance Center era, and really the Thunderdome era.

1:36:19 I mean, I don't know how often, you know, what's the euphemism that Drew McIntyre uses? I led WWE through uncertain times. Uncertain times, yes. Maybe if they say it's 17 extra times per show, Nick, you'll get it right. Because trust me, they're going to try. They want you to know it was uncertain times, not difficult. I'm sorry.

1:36:38 Yes.

1:36:39 Well, now you've encouraged them to do it more because they really want you to know they were uncertain times. But yeah, they don't. I mean, when the show is over, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's like preseason basketball. Like you can watch a few clips on YouTube and read a comp, you know, read an article on it and you probably got as much out of it as you need to.

1:36:57 You don't have to sit through three hours of it. I mean, obviously there's value in when you're a big sports fan, but you know, the casual fan doesn't need to see it. And the, the, the, With Crown Jewel, it's like the wrestlers know it's not a major show. People are going to resent them even having a really good match in that setting. No one wants to bring their best match to a crowd that isn't the typical paying crowd where they went there because of the fan base.

1:37:25 Like they went to San Francisco tonight because they have a shiny new arena. It's a cosmopolitan highbrow city and they get a good glory shot from the drone. They didn't go there because that's where the fans are. And you know, way worse is going to Saudi Arabia for the money. And then, you know, what's just insulting is the false pretense of, well, we're going there because you're going to see progress. I mean, you can just imagine the sales pitch a few years ago. Oh, yeah, you know, we're going to introduce the women and you'll get credit for helping advanced women's rights in this backwards behind the times country that also wants to blend in And have tourism replace petroleum as their income, as obviously cars are

1:38:04 moving away from gas and towards electric on the horizon. Five, 10, 15 years, it's going to be probably under 50%. So they want to be tourism.

1:38:15 Well, you know what?

1:38:16 You got to move a little faster out of your caveman times to do that. And the fact that WWE thought, oh, we'll be part of this fun, positive story that we can pat ourselves on the back for. you know, was offensive from the beginning. It came across like they were bought and paid. for for propaganda but then you had the jamal kashoggi thing and it's just like i mean yeah it's just disgusting.

1:38:36 So real quickly yeah yeah that's him go ahead.

1:38:40 That that The narcissism and temerity you need to have to think that having one match a year in a country is going to do more to change women's rights than all the women activists in that country doing the work day in and day out is just too much for my mind to handle sometimes with WWE. And I understand they need to do PR things for their own stuff and they have all this money.

1:39:00 Coming in, but the framing....

1:39:05 I know the phrase is played out, but the optics are just so bad to me, especially when they frame it as we are advancing women's rights. No, you are advancing enough rights for you to make money off of them and then go back to your country and not do anything about what's happening in the country you were just showing.

1:39:20 You're making an ungodly amount of money from a regime whose money you shouldn't be proud to take. And you're using their backwards behind the times strategy. And I mean, we won't even get into what Nick talked a lot about, which is the LGBTQ rights, which is not something WWE is touting that they're going to help them advance on.

1:39:38 Because Saudi Arabia is not there yet on this. So Nick Barbati is joking, oh, can I walk in there? And can I wear my LGBTQ t-shirt? Would that be okay? And Tom's like, oh, no, no, no, you can't.

1:39:53 Oh, okay.

1:39:54 Well, then maybe I'm less excited about all the progress that WWE is patting themselves on the back for being part of, at least they did at the beginning. it seems like WWE has some shame here. I mean, they do try to avoid saying Saudi Arabia until they're probably contractually obligated to, you know, two weeks before the show. And, you know, the wrestlers say it, and it seems like the crowd isn't just erupting in boos like they once were.

1:40:15 But it's just, you know, AEW is just in a spot where, man, if they want to not step in it and just come across, the goodwill that they can build up with a fan base that can pay off over time, compared to WWE with this just money grab. So Vince can have, you know, even more homes. He barely spends any time in and Kevin Dunn can have a more fabulous fountain in his front yard or whatever it is that people who have millions then need millions more than get in bed with these people. So they can be in this, you know, real world monopoly rat race that is not fulfilling and doesn't make you a good person. And I just don't get it. It's, you know, I don't get it at all. And, and, and we're suffering for it. And now the wrestlers, you know, get

1:40:54 a good payday, but I'm sure they feel dirty about that. I don't know. how good Edge is going to feel about the nice new car that he buys or the college, you know, being able to pay. Well, he could always buy a nice car and pay for college. That's the offensive thing is there's rich wrestlers who are still going there and taking these payoffs when supposedly they could say no.

1:41:11 Supposedly.

1:41:12 Yeah.

1:41:13 Yeah.

1:41:14 Well, I just think Edge, you know, for example, I mean, he's, he's doesn't have a lot of time left and he's got the, he's got the equity. You know, I really don't want to go there.

1:41:21 You know, we've seen it with Daniel Bryan and Kevin Owens in the past, right? Not going to these shows as a moral stance. And maybe they suffered for it. Maybe they didn't. But there have been wrestlers with less equity than Edge that have made that stand in the past.

1:41:37 And if Adam Copeland wants, and I don't mean to single out Adam Copeland, but if Adam Copeland wants to go on Twitter after he's done with his WWE run and show receipts for giving, you know, $ 687, 000 to charity, which equals all his, you know, all of his Saudi Arabia payoffs. And he goes, hey, I know you guys held it against me. Some of you rightfully so thought, you know, why is he going there when he has the leverage to say no? I just felt like my stand would make a difference, but I can make even more of a difference for this charity with this money, and I'm giving all of it. You know, something like that would be a great gesture. And that's for each wrestler to make up their mind, but it's also for

1:42:11 us to make up our minds about these people who have the power and the agency to to say no and as others have and aren't and are choosing not to. And that's, you know, part of, part of the bullet points of who they are that, that lives with them. Go ahead, Nick.

1:42:29 Oh, no. Had you, along those lines, had you heard that, because I had read something that McAfee was not going.

1:42:38 Yes. Did you read, I heard that. Was that out of moral protest or just because why would he go?

1:42:44 Well, it's weird. It was supposedly he said it on his podcast that he did one thing. He said he's not going. And then he also at one point said, oh, it's great to go and there's money and stuff like that. And then you sit on a plane for nine hours. I'm not going. So I don't know whether he's not allowed to go because he dumped on it.

1:43:12 I don't know.

1:43:13 I was wondering if you would.

1:43:14 No, I'm curious to know more about it. I heard he didn't go, but I didn't know the context if he said it was some sort of, you know, if he kind of intimated it was some sort of stand or it was more, you know, I got a lot of money and it's going to be a sucky show. I mean, they can do remote announcing too. You don't have to be there, but yeah, I just don't know enough about it. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the native podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free

1:43:57 versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial. And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app.

1:44:32 Last point, and then I'll let you go. I'm curious. I've never been to a WWE show, but I know that the ticket prices are pricey. Yeah. And I'm wondering, they're making, what, about $ 600 million a year or something like that from all these, you know, between Peacock, USA, and Fox. Why not cut their ticket prices and.

1:45:03 Capitalism, capitalism.

1:45:05 Well, I understand, but I mean, he doesn't, it's, it's not needed. It's not, that's not where their revenue is coming from.

1:45:14 They've done the calculations, which is we have our fans, we come to their market, you know, twice a year. And the tick there, there's, there's not a sensitivity to price. Like people are used to concert prices and, and, you know, movie tickets are more expensive than they used to be. And, you know, people just if they want to go, they're going to go and they've done their studies. And that's the conclusion they've drawn. Now, I think that changes based on the economy. I think that changes based on the product and the quality of the product. I think it changes based on whether you can also go to an AEW show instead, and have a major league field with big stars for one third the price and be part

1:45:49 of a more fun atmosphere. And so I think they should readjust their thinking on that. But ultimately, capitalism, if you say capitalism, If you go hashtag capitalism to that, I'd say hashtag capitalism. You know what's going to get you your next big TV deal? Red hot atmospheres on the TV shows and the pay-per-views that are a much bigger part of revenue. So at this point, don't worry about making money at house shows. Don't worry about what the gate was and the ticket revenue. Just get as many people in the building as you can. And if that means having a bunch of lower-priced seats in the middle of the upper deck and up, I'd start doing that because you want that great atmosphere. You want that

1:46:31 perception of red hot product for that next TV deal. Plus, it makes more people more likely to watch if they got to go to a show and pay a reasonable price and had a good time because it was a party atmosphere of a two-thirds full to full house. And you're not getting that. So I just think they're in a position where they should reevaluate that kind of idea of, oh, it's so unsophisticated to think that we have to worry about our ticket prices being too high. People pay whatever.

1:46:52 I know they have bean counters who come up with that formula, but I would say it's time to reevaluate.

1:46:58 Agreed.

1:46:58 Well, that does it for me tonight. Have a good night, gentlemen. And I'm going to miss Wednesday. I don't know what I'm going to do Wednesday. I mean, I'm like, I'm so... No, I'm just, it's like, it's kind of like I have my Monday thing and then I have my Wednesday thing and then I have my Friday thing and now I don't have my Wednesday thing. I don't know what I'm going to do.

1:47:20 Do you watch NXT usually?

1:47:24 I usually don't. I just, I.

1:47:27 So just record it Tuesday and watch it Wednesday and pretend there was a big draft and they just reshuffled everybody.

1:47:35 Oh, okay.

1:47:36 Well, I'm also re-watching The Sopranos, so I'm having.

1:47:38 A blast doing that. You can get a little deeper into that on Wednesday instead. Whatever you do on Saturday, just flip it with Wednesday.

1:47:48 Sounds like a plan.

1:47:49 All right. Glad I could help, Nick.

1:47:51 Whatever it is.

1:47:52 Oh, my God.

1:47:52 Squid boxes or whatever it is. Squid games. Squid games.

1:47:56 Is it Squid Game? Is that what it's called?

1:47:57 Have you heard about that show?

1:47:58 Squid Game.

1:47:59 Squid Game. Yeah, I watched the first episode.

1:48:02 I watched the first episode last night. Let me just say, as a Korean person, part of me wants to, on walks where people are behind me, just slowly go, turn my head around and see what they do.

1:48:14 What are.

1:48:17 Bruce?

1:48:17 You're going to watch the rest of it. What'd you think?

1:48:20 Yeah.

1:48:20 Uh, we've been, we're going to watch the rest for sure. It's just one thing that we're going to watch together and we don't have as much time together because of the schedules lately. But now that we're back to a more normal schedule, it's definitely on our list, probably more of a weekend watch for us, but definitely watching it.

1:48:34 And as I told my partner already, uh, cause she doesn't know this cause she hasn't seen old boy before. For instance, Koreans make some pretty effed up movies, and people are just effed up stuff in general. I'm trying to keep it clean here because it's not necessarily VIP. But yeah, and so this is another way for people to understand that Koreans, we're just really messed up people.

1:48:56 Well, a friend of mine said, now, Korean, you probably understand the language, but he said the best way to watch it is watch the English dubbed with the subtitles, because it'll take you back to the old Godzilla movie.

1:49:16 Yes, yes. I think you have to be in the right place. I don't know where it's going to go after the first episode, but you've got to be in a certain place. I wouldn't recommend the show for everyone, but I'm still trying to kind of fully.

1:49:32 Watch 10 Hours of Black Mirror first. Oh, gosh.

1:49:35 Oh, gosh.

1:49:37 We're sending people down dark places.

1:49:39 All right.

1:49:39 All right, thanks, Nick.

1:49:42 Oh, yeah.

1:49:42 All right, good night.

1:49:44 Yeah, take care. Update, Wade. Was the Sopranos, by the way, the lighter, happier, more cheerful show of the three we just talked about?

1:49:56 Yeah, yeah, of the three, yeah. Quick update, Wade. The Giants just won one visit, and they have a 2-1 lead on the Dodgers.

1:50:03 I had the game on in the background. Yeah, I saw that.

1:50:05 Yeah.

1:50:06 I thought it was a Dodger player who didn't look happy. I picked up on that.

1:50:09 Oh, no.

1:50:10 It looked like a homer off the bat, but the winds pushed it back down. So I thought it was a homer.

1:50:15 Yeah.

1:50:15 Wow.

1:50:17 All right.

1:50:18 Let's read a couple emails and then sign off here. We'll go to Ed from High Desert, California. Good evening, Wade and Bruce. Why is Drew being such a jerk? By the way, before I go to you, because I meant to say this earlier. I do not think Drew's helping himself by being the John Cena Master of Ceremonies.

1:50:38 I'm going to come to the ring and talk about Crown Jewel and what a great lineup it's going to be, folks. That should be the job of the ring announcer, who they don't let do any of that stuff. Or send Byron Saxton into the ring, which he doesn't get enough in-ring time. Or Kevin Patrick, if they can trust him to do that. Don't have wrestlers introduced to show they're the warm-up act.

1:51:05 Well, beyond that, he also said that he's been waiting for his moment, and his moment's going to come at Crown Jewel.

1:51:11 Yeah.

1:51:12 Yeah, I mean, you've got to be, again, we speak of wrestlers who have agency, who have pull, and I don't know where Drew feels he falls on that. You know, Edge certainly should be in a position to have more, you know, more than Drew, just based on the total number of years and legacy and all that. But at some point, you've got to look at that and go, I don't know if this is really good. You know, this is really good for me. All right, why is Drew being such a jerk? I suppose they're trying to give him some attitude, but he just comes off as a jerk, not likable. The opening segment and obviously the ending of a match. At least Big E told Drew it was an accident. But again, Drew the jerk. Is this Drew going to be, is this Drew going to

1:51:44 SmackDown against Roman? Yeah, I mean, I don't think Drew's going to SmackDown as a red hot baby face. You know, I'm curious what the SmackDown crowd, how they'll react because, you know, Reigns is pretty cool. And, you know, Drew has his moments and I don't, you know, dislike his act as much as, say Nick Barbatti does, just referencing them again, a VIP exclusive show, by the way, worth checking out if you want a really fun weekend fix, cover, I shouldn't say fix, a weekend dose of intensive, focused WWE conversation along with award-winning bickering between two hosts. It's wonderful.

1:52:24 I see a lot more value in Drew than Nick, for instance, but I don't think he's in a great place right now, character-wise.

1:52:32 No, again, I said it earlier, I think he's better off as a heel, and they seem to be trying to go more that way. I think he gets more of a reaction as a heel and as a babyface because of his Master of Ceremonies thing, because of his counting down from three. It's too forced, too much like John Cena. And it just doesn't endear, I think, a lot of fans to his act because they can see that there's a veneer of inauthenticity to his act, more or less.

1:53:07 Yeah, or just being too corporate.

1:53:11 Yes, yes.

1:53:12 Yeah, I mean, it's just, yeah, I would alter that if I were them. All right, let's see. Ed also says, I heard you say that King of the Ring wasn't the greatest pay-per-view because it's harder for WWE to sell and build because the matches are more random. It's not so much random as much as you can't advertise what the finals will be because the early round matches, you know, you don't want to give away what happens. So the finals, which we normally sell tickets around, if you have the tournament all in one night, you can't advertise ahead of time.

1:53:41 So he says, but it's really frustrating how basically nothing matters in WWE. These two tournaments don't need to have WWE spend six months and pour millions of dollars into advertising for it. Just simply acting like it matters would be a positive. As you said in your report regarding Natalia and then mentioning the family history of King of the Ring, and then she loses in a few seconds, WWE is a fast food restaurant. You don't pay for quality.

1:54:00 Apparently two Sundays ago, WWE had an hour special on Fox about the history of King of the Ring, and the show drew 1.6 million viewers.

1:54:06 Wow.

1:54:07 You can add context, but that's a better rating than anything AW has done. Well, it's on Fox. It's better than some Raws and not that far behind SmackDown. So doing King of the Ring has some juice, but as always, nothing matters in WWE land. I wouldn't say that has to do with King of the Ring. I think it just has to do with.

1:54:22 history nostalgia yeah.

1:54:23 Just seeing old wrestlers you know um yep on tv uh apparently too i'm sorry uh give your best estimate on the raw viewership for tonight big markets with boston la and san francisco having playoff games uh the monday night football nfl game and a holiday the drop in viewers over under 175k um what do you think what do you think uh bruce as far as that goes.

1:54:47 I'd say with everything going on, you had a great, tight playoff game, an overtime thriller on Monday Night Football. I think they'll be lucky to get 1.2 million.

1:54:59 Wow.

1:55:00 So the viewership first hour last week was 1.949 million. Then second hour, 1.902. Third hour, 1.721.

1:55:10 It wasn't a good show. It wasn't a good show. There wasn't much.

1:55:14 They had some stuff advertised, but none of the things that were advertised actually came through with a good finish. And while the four promos from the women were good, nothing else throughout the show was enough to, I think, retain viewers to want to hold on and see what happened at the end.

1:55:28 Yeah.

1:55:28 I mean, the cable household rating, which doesn't take into account how many people are watching a TV, just how many homes have someone watching it. You know, just they're counted as a home. And the cable rating was 1.35 last week for the draft, but they were in the 1.22, 1.24, 1.24 range the prior three weeks. I mean, is this in danger of dropping under 1.0? Is this the week that happens?

1:55:52 Yeah.

1:55:55 If it i wouldn't rule it out either but if it's not the week then it's definitely the beginning of the downfall because generally this is also the time of year where wwe tends to lag in viewers and they start to try to build up for a rumble but it's going to be tough because there's a 17th game in football this year uh nba is about to start back up nhl starting back up like This is the time of year for them where they have the most competition.

1:56:20 College football is going on.

1:56:21 I know they don't play on Mondays, but there's just a lot of different things drawing attention away from viewers.

1:56:26 Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know the answer, but this is a candidate for dropping under 1.0, I would say, with everything going on.

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1:57:46 All right.

1:57:47 Then he says, I saw an article today regarding an interview from Becky. She mentioned that her turning heel was WWE's idea, not hers. So there was reporting initially that it was her idea. And now she's saying out of her own mouth, it wasn't hers, which is, you know, interesting. Maybe we've got to trace back the original reporting on that.

1:58:08 I still... think her heel turn can work if she's matched against wrestlers who benefit from it. And I think there's more baby faces who can benefit from working against her as a heel. But if her saying it wasn't her idea is her way of saying she's not all that into it, then maybe it's not going to be as effective as, as it would be. But I, I like, I think it, I think Becky is a heel against Bianca Belair, Rhea Ripley, Liv Morgan, even Dewdrop, maybe, maybe Tegan Nox. I mean, I think, yeah, I think, I think those are possible. I think those are some, you know, some possible boosts, you know, that, that they were Becky's the right one to work against him. And I just, Otherwise, as a babyface, she's facing Alexa Bliss, assuming she stays heel,

1:59:02 assuming she was even heel, or Nia Jax, or Carmella.

1:59:07 Or Bianca again.

1:59:08 Carmella or Tamina. Or Bianca would go heel, or that's a face. I'm just saying, like, Becky as a babyface doesn't have good matchups. So I just think you have to look at everything, not just I really want to cheer for her, but look at WWE going, you can cheer for her, but not for 18 months. Let us get 18 months out of her as a heel. because she can make some stars and add some depth, and we can tell a story. And I'm not saying they have a story arc. I'm not saying we should have faith they have a story arc. But keep in mind they might, that there are other reasons other than the immediacy of how obvious it seems that Becky should be a babyface that do play into it. And it doesn't mean you have to agree ultimately with the decision, but

1:59:45 at least enter that into your evaluation of it, that they're thinking about more than just who fans right now like. And I've tried to convey that in my analysis of And I have heard she wants to help bring people along. It's the opposite of Charlotte's reputation. Fair or unfair, that's what I hear. And so I've taken that to mean, as a heel, she can bring more people along. I haven't read the Becky interview yet, so I'm sure I'll talk about it on the Keller Hotline later this week for VIP members once I have a chance to read it.

2:00:16 But that's been my take all along.

2:00:19 Yeah, I haven't heard it either.

2:00:21 But, you know, just because a wrestler didn't pitch an idea or pitch an idea it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be good or bad either way like nikki ash was pitched by her apparently shane thorne is pitching some crocodile dundee type character it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work out well just because it was pitched by the wrestlers but um the fact that she is wholeheartedly into this character and wanting to make it work says more about it than her pitching it or ww pitching it ever could in my opinion It.

2:00:52 Also says, keep up the great work. Enjoy the shows and the content. You need to get a sponsor for your weekly Jimmy Smith moments. I don't know who the sponsor of that would be. Maybe Audible, where you can expand your vocabulary by listening to great writers read their work out loud.

2:01:06 Or Grammarly.

2:01:08 I don't know that Jimmy Smith is screwing up where periods go, but he sure is all-capsing, doing all-caps on random words. I guess Grammarly would catch that and go, why are you hitting caps lock on past for no reason. Uh, he says, I'm going to Orlando Friday. If you need a call from the event, just mention it after the email. Hey, I'm mentioning it now. Give us a call. Give us a call. And I'll, I'll be in touch on that.

2:01:33 All right.

2:01:34 Uh, we'll go next to John from Tennessee. They have to stop doing these tag matches, featuring people teaming together. We'll have this upcoming title match. It's always ends up with the same stupid argument, mid match that makes you hate both people. They've ruined so many baby faces over the past few years. Drew and Rollins were both really over after beating Lesnar, but within a year or less, the fans were done with them. I know WWE would blame the fans, but it's not our fault they can't book babyfaces anymore. What should they be doing differently? Thanks for the great content. Everyone go VIP. That means sign up for a VIP membership. Support us. Thank you, John. pwtorch.com slash go VIP so you can get a ton of

2:02:10 great content, including the aforementioned Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure. Ad-free episodes of these shows come with that, too. A lot of the great stuff in archives dating back to my radio show over 30 years ago. Hundreds of Pro Wrestling Focus radio shows I hosted in the early 90s, among many cool, cool things that are instantly available and that you unlock with a membership. Yeah, I mean, what should they do different? I mean, I guess it's sort of weave throughout our commentary. I mean, break from your formulaic booking of, you know, there's other ways to do things.

2:02:44 Start doing things differently, even if you think they're not as good. Do them because there's value at this point in being different. And then, you know, decide what would cause someone to cheer someone and then give people opportunities to cheer them in circumstances where you'd want to cheer someone.

2:03:01 It doesn't have to be a morality play, but my God, the level of ambivalence that fans are going to have when you just have nobody who's likable and there's no structure, there's no, you know, there's no situation where you're just like, yeah, I actually, it's what I liked about Bella's promo. So I thought the highlight of raw was beyond Bella's promo, just going, you know, you cheat to win and you shouldn't be proud of that. Like I was like, wow, that, that is like, it's, it's just, and she was cool.

2:03:25 I thought she was cool in saying it, but like, you can brag about being me the way you beat me. But, um, you know, Charlotte likes her legacy, you know, but her legacy is, is not doing things the right way. It's, it's cheating to win. Like more baby faces need to say that while doing so in a way that's cool. I, I just, I do think people relate to that. I really think people relate to cheering for somebody who goes about success the right way.

2:03:50 We've all been cheated some way, one way or another in our lives. And so we have that relatability factor. But specifically to the question about the champions and the challengers, Just do what you did in the past and what AEW is doing right now. You can have challengers and champions face random opponents in the weeks leading up to their match and build them up and make them look stronger or have a challenger lose suddenly or a champion lose suddenly and have questions about their confidence or their arrogance.

2:04:17 There are different ways to make sure that you maintain the story between the champions and challengers without having them involved in every segment together, every match together. It's just simple pro wrestling A to B that they did in the past. And again, the AEW is doing right now to great success.

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2:05:14 VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. I will wrap up here. This is also about Becky. Zach in Texas said, the one good thing I can say about the show tonight is that it feels like Becky Lynch is dumping this awful heel shtick. She revealed in a podcast today that it was not her idea to come back as a heel despite previous reporting to the contrary.

2:05:38 I was glad to hear she wasn't foolish enough to suggest something so ridiculous. Her saying tonight that teaming with Charlotte was, quote, as repulsive as the lingering smell of piss in a downtown alley cracked me up. I love that line, too. That felt like the goat doing goat things on a promo. Beyond that moment, WWE absolutely disgraced the women and the fans of women's wrestling tonight. The Queen's Crown tourney matches were under five minutes combined. Between both shows, all four matches were under ten combined. The tag team match was a cluster with no finish. It feels like we're back in the divas era, except real talent is being wasted. I'd say Vince should be ashamed, but he doesn't have the capacity for that. Zach in Texas.

2:06:15 You know, WWE thinks, well, we can't hold people's attention for matches that are very long unless they involve top stars. And they think, well, the way to solve that is shorten the matches. And I would say, no, the solution to that is figure out, look inside yourself in the way that you frame the importance of wrestling matches and wrestling moves and the realism and wins and losses counting and how many screw finishes you have and how many distraction finishes you have and go, maybe people don't want to invest in wrestling matches because nothing counts until there's a distraction. in I don't know what percent of matches.

2:06:50 Everybody knows. I don't mind having a mix of match lengths. I don't think everything needs to be 12 minutes with a standard deviation of 90 seconds either way. And AEW fell into that realm too often, has fallen into that realm too often over their two years of Dynamite. But you should think, why aren't people sticking around for long matches? Well, because we're pushing wrestlers we don't care about. We don't give people someone to root for and root against in a clear way that makes people stay invested for a long match. We have announcers who don't know the names of signature moves of wrestlers. Our announcers don't spend time talking about match strategy and seeming to admire the athleticism

2:07:27 of wrestlers. They're more into other things and banter. So, I mean, it's a long list, and they could change the way they present the product. It would take three, four years for it to really sink in, but they really could shift things. to the actual bell-to-bell action seeming like it is what we're all here for, instead of something that gets in the way of the other things that we do that we care more about, like Reggie doing flippy-flop stuff.

2:07:54 It's difficult to tell stories in the ring when you have less than five minutes. Um, a squash match can tell a story, but when every match is squash match length, there's no way to differentiate between a squash match and an actual story match.

2:08:06 So yeah, it is.

2:08:11 Yes.

2:08:11 The emailers and you said it better than I could say. Yeah.

2:08:14 Yep. And, I have nothing against three-minute matches or five-minute matches or eight-minute matches or 12-minute matches. What I have a problem with is waving the white flag on having anyone other than a very top tier of your wrestlers who can go longer than five minutes without feeling like you're going to lose everyone's attention. That should not be a problem. And it's a problem of your own doing.

2:08:36 You've got the budget to hire anybody in the world you want. And you can have your announcers talk about wrestling any way you want. You can book finishes the way you want them. You can book heels and baby faces how you want them, and you're booking the bottom two-thirds to the bottom four-fifths of your show in a way where you don't feel you can get away with having them in the ring for more than five minutes without losing everybody. That's on you. That's not the problem of wrestling or the wrestlers. It's your fault for the way you present the product and the way you condition your audience to believe in in-ring wrestling mattering and booking finishes that can come at any time, including in under

2:09:11 five minutes or more than five minutes. But They just aren't good at that, and it doesn't cross their mind because they're so formulaic in what they do.

2:09:19 What does that say about their performance center, that they can't put out people that they feel confident in having five-minute matches at least?

2:09:27 In defense of the performance center, I'd say that NXT, I think, has taught that you can have longer matches, and then you get to the main roster, and the way they present the product compared to NXT, which NXT has sort of fallen out of favor. But NXT for years was the place you would go pre-AEW and go, yeah, they get it. They're doing it right. We can't wait for Hunter to take over. And now it just feels like, you know, I don't know if it will, how this will age, but it seems like Hunter had his window and it's passed and he's yesterday's news. And you just sort of feel sorry for him if you have the capacity to do that, knowing the totality of his on-air and behind the scenes conduct over the years. He's a

2:10:08 complicated mosaic of many good and bad things. But At this point, you know, I think it's important to point out, I think NXT was doing things the right way. And if you applied that to the big budget, big star Raw SmackDown three years ago, I'd say Raw and SmackDown would be in a better place had they been doing what NXT taught the wrestlers at the PC to do and then showed it on TakeOver specials.

2:10:30 True.

2:10:31 That's true.

2:10:31 Yeah. All right, cool. Bruce, thank you as always. Good to have you back.

2:10:37 Thank you. I'm a little disappointed.

2:10:39 Nobody, none of the cars email has brought up Bobby Lashley's promo, but I'm sure you can. Well, I think, I think in terms of the entire presentation, he's had a better promo in the past, but MVP was with him. I think as a solo promo, In terms of the language that he used, going back to that, Jimmy Smith, but also his delivery, I think this was his best promo he's ever given in WWE. It was to the point.

2:11:04 There was nothing bombastic. Everything had a factual basis to what he was claiming. I really appreciated when he said, who do you want? Me, who I'm dressed like a million bucks defending the WWE Championship week in and week out, or an old man coming out here in cut-off sleeves screaming about murder? And he also framed his putting Goldberg out to pasture in terms of a career ender and not a life ender. And I just felt like he really used his words well and delivered them well. And I like how he punctuated his last words about the almighty can't be hurt, the almighty can't be beat, and damn sure the almighty can't be killed. And how he just stared straight into the camera with that intensity. I

2:11:46 think this was his best promo as a solo act in WWE.

2:11:51 I'm really glad you brought him up. And I shared so many of the same thoughts you just said while watching it. And, you know, if we go full circle to who were the baby faces on the show for me, Bobby Lashley's right there with Bianca Belair as the most likable best baby face. And I thought, and I don't know if there's like, if they were trying to send, you know, like send a message or one up Goldberg or if there's writing team rivalries going on here or what, but That sure felt like a rebuttal of how to cut a wrestling promo that doesn't reek of desperation. I'm going to kill you and your lifeless body is going to be gasping for breath and just stupid melodrama isms of phraseology like that. Um, it just, yeah, I love

2:12:35 the closing line. I, you, you can't beat the almighty. You can't hurt the almighty and you damn sure can't kill the almighty. Um, Lashley cut the babyface promo and Goldberg was Goldberg. I might have written that promo if I had a chance and been proud of it. That's what I'd write for Lashley if I wanted to score some points and make some points, I guess is a better way to put it, about the approach Goldberg took in his promo. Yeah, Lashley was great.

2:13:03 If Drew McIntyre had his promos like this, I'd be all for McIntyre right now.

2:13:08 No, we're kind of at a point, and I know they're going to different brands, but a year from now, A heel Drew and a babyface Lashley crossing paths with a whole year of backstory that leads to them each kind of landing in a different place. I mean, I'd cheer this Lashley and I could see Drew tweaking a couple things and being a heel who's bitter at the fans for not appreciating that he led WWE through Bruce.

2:13:33 I agree.

2:13:34 No, no. He led WWE through Bruce.

2:13:38 Oh, uncertain times.

2:13:40 Yes, yes, that was your cue, yes. We'll edit that so it looks real smooth. So, yes, he can be bitter. He can be bitter that the fans didn't appreciate him leading them through those uncertain times, yes. There's a whole story there to be had.

2:13:57 Especially if he doesn't get his moment next Thursday at Crown Jewel.

2:14:00 Oh, God, yes. All right, I'm just looking forward to two weeks from now when we can not talk about Crown Jewel. And WWE will stop talking about it too if history is prologue. All right, cool. Thank you, Bruce. People can read Bruce Hazelwood's reports on Monday nights covering Monday Night Raw. Whether you are enjoying Raw or not or think they're doing a good job or not, getting Bruce's analysis and take on things is worth going out of your way to check out at pwtorch.com. Bruce, how can people follow you on social media?

2:14:33 Well, thank you for the compliment there, Wade.

2:14:35 On Twitter, you can find me at B underscore Lee 253.

2:14:40 Excellent. All right. Thanks to our callers, our on-site correspondent, our emailers, and of course, our listeners. You can, if you haven't yet, of course, subscribe. If you streamed our show, just search Wade Keller on your podcast app and subscribe to the Red Logo Show and the Blue Logo Show. This is a Red Logo Show, the post shows. The Blue Logo is for our regular podcasts. And tomorrow, Rich Fan, PW Torch columnist, joins me on the flagship edition, mark for edit, of the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Easy for me to say. There's like mealy going on here.

2:15:15 And it's doing away here. All right. Thanks, Bruce. We'll talk to you next time.

2:15:20 Thank you, Wade. Have a good night.

2:15:21 You too.

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