Thank an Evangelical - with Mary Katharine Ham

0:00 Being Jewish comes with lots of problems these days. Underfunded, honest journalism about Jewish life should not be one of them. Be cool and help us with this problem by joining Arc Plus at arcmedia.org. And to our members, thank you for having our backs. [gentle music] You are listening to an Arc Media podcast. You want to talk about a community of people who knows what an Israel map looks like? Yeah.

0:27 Go to the Bible quiz at [laughs]- Right Oh. At any- Right, right... at any Christian school. The Bible quiz tournament- Oh, that sounds cool... those kids know what an Israeli map looks like. They know what the Middle East looks like. They're not using the Bella Hadid Instagram map- Yeah. [laughs]... of like, you know- Well, like even- [laughs] You know which one I'm talking about? I go, I go to, like, a...

0:46 I hate to say white nationalist gym. That might be a little extreme. [laughs] But it's, it's adjacent, I would say, and every morning when I walk in there, um, I get bombarded with questions, 'cause everybody's, like, super into the Bible and super into Jesus, and they just feel so badly for me that I don't get it.

1:05 [upbeat music] Hi, welcome back to Chosen People Problems, where a secular sinful Israeli speaks to her wholly religious friend. I'm Yael, here with Chaya, our friend Mary Kathryn Hamm is here. Hi. Hello, guys. Thank you for having me. Of course. Host of the Normally podcast with our friend Carol Markowitz, host of Getting Hammered with... He's not our friend, but I feel like he would be our friend, Vic Matus.

1:34 Totally. Right? I feel, like, I, I have a completely parasocial relationship with him. He would appreciate that and embrace it. [laughs] Oh, great. Amazing. And Fox News contributor, um, but most importantly, our friend, I think. What people don't know is that Mary Kathryn has a very special place in, uh, our podcast history, because- In Ask A Jew Lore... we...

1:55 Yes, because we recorded with Mary Kathryn probably on October 6th of 2023. Mm-hmm. That's correct. And we did a whole episode, and it was great, and talked about a lot of interesting things, and then October 7th happened, and it was like, uh, we can't release that episode because- Yes... it's so awkward.

2:13 Like, this huge world-changing devastating event happened, and we hadn't mentioned it 'cause it hadn't happened when we recorded. So we- Mm-hmm... you were so amazing, because we recorded another episode with you, and we... Like, that week, I think, so it was very emotional. Mm-hmm, yeah, we kind of stitched them together. Yeah. Yes. It was very, very emotional.

2:30 I always think of you, like, when I think about that week and sort of what unfolded. Um, and Yael obviously was in Israel at the time, so it was a very, very emotional... You're- It was. You're definitely- You're an emotional part of that... I was, I was DM-ing Yael, like, "Uh, what's- Yeah... what's happening? How are you doing?" I know. [laughs] "How are you doing?" Yeah.

2:45 I- Um, right after we had wrapped- I know... you know, 12 hours earlier. I know. Crazy. Yeah, I was, I was recently, the last anniversary, I was trying to, like, write down every single thing I remembered from that day, and it was such a blur. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, like, the days blurred, the hours blurred.

3:03 Um, but, you know. Yeah. But it's, it's really... I mean, I was 21 w- in 2001 when 9/11 happened, and I def- [laughs] I thought you were gonna say in 2023. Yeah. [laughs] I wi- I wish. But in 20- in 2001, I was 21. I had just gotten married, and I definitely feel like there was before 9/11 and after 9/11.

3:24 Like, the world is divided, you know, by that date, and October 7th is now another date that I think divides my, like, life, you know? And the life of- Mm-hmm... I, I think everyone, actually. I mean, it was such a big event, even for an American who's not connected to Israel in any way. I think October 7th was a day of change, um, in many different ways, and so we've lived through, like, two major world ch- I mean, and then there's COVID, so maybe, I don't know how many- Yeah...

3:52 world-changing things we've lived through. Yes. But, like- There's- It's a lot... and, and there's still so many more that could happen, so. [laughs] Okay. God forbid. Right. Yeah. Well, I think, I think those two, 9/11 and October 7th- Right. [laughs]... for me- Right. [laughs] Right... are, you know, those- Depends who you ask... they did feel like- Right... civilizational signposts. Yeah.

4:11 Um, or pr- more properly, anti-civilizational [laughs] signposts- Totally... of like- I know... hey, there's a, there's a ver- very real threat here, uh, that perhaps you were not reckoning with in the, in the way you should've been. Yeah. Um, I always think of what, uh, Douglas Murray said, uh, I don't know if it was a year after or something, where he said that there's, there are moments in history where a flare goes up, and momentarily you can see where everyone stands.

4:37 Yeah. Ugh, that's beautiful. And I, I hate that when I think of October 7th, the, the first thing I f- think about is kind of antisemitism and, like, you know- Mm-hmm... global discussions and not, like, the terrible things that happened that day, but- Right... you know. There are plenty of terribleness... There's plenty of terribleness to go around. Yeah. We should...

4:56 It is worth reiterating that by the time we did- Mm-hmm Mm-hmm... the makeup podcast, which was very- Yeah... close on the heels- Oh, yeah... of this happening. And genocide. By that time, I believe without a foot- I know. I know... one Israeli foot in Gaza, there were already protests- Yep, yep... proclaiming it all the things that the protests claim it is now. I mean, it is just- Mm...

5:16 i- illogical, and it's always worth putting that marker down. I know. And you went to Israel after October 7th, didn't you? Mm-hmm. I did. I went in March of the next year, and it was, you know- Yeah... a little, felt a little, uh, risky going. Yeah. We went to the north a bit. Yeah. Uh, and we had pretty, you know, close- Right... security with us at that time.

5:35 So, so when I was up north, and you learn 80,000 Israelis have been displaced from their homes. That is a huge thing, uh, particularly in a s- country this small. Yeah. I think that's something a lot of Americans have trouble grasping, because if you haven't been to Israel you don't realize how close Hezbollah- Yeah... in its former form, thank goodness- [laughs]...

5:56 how close Hezbollah was and all those weapons were to, um, northern Israel and how much people who are familiar with the situation thought, you know, they could just wrap up the country by coming up north and coming fr- down from the south. That's a huge... thing to grapple with on its own- Yeah... outside of- Right... the, the- Right... terrible violence. Um, so- Yeah... I think it was good to get that perspective.

6:17 I think the, the, you know, if you take the emotional reasoning out of it for people, which is what guides most people, I feel like half of the arguments about Israel could be solved if people just looked at a map. Yes, I know. Right? [laughs] I know. Just like, "Oh, oh." Yes. "Okay." [laughs] Yeah. "That's small, huh?" That's very... Yes.

6:36 So there's a great comedian, um, Yochai Sboner, who says that Israel is, is so small that the name of the country doesn't even fit on the country in the map. Right. [laughs] Yes. So, yeah. That's so funny. Last night, I, I spoke at an event. There were w- a thousand women in the room. It was a challah bake.

6:53 You know, they get everyone together and everybody gets, like, a kit, and you make the challah dough, and then you make a blessing on it. It's a, it's, it's beautiful. But I was thinking, I was standing in the room before I got up to speak, and I was looking around, and all I saw on people's faces was just this desire to be together. Mm-hmm.

7:12 In a room with people who believe like them, who have the same values as them, who don't, who f- where they feel safe to, like, be a Zionist or to be Jewish, and it just, like, it gave me chills for a second 'cause I was like, w- it's so sad that so many of these women don't feel that way all the time.

7:30 Right. Right? Like, I don't... I f- used to feel like that always. I mean, when I grew up in the '90s and even in the 2000s, like, I don't remember ever feeling like, "Oh my God, I don't belong," or, s- you know, "I'm gonna be pushed away because of my love for Israel." And I was in a room with a thousand women last night who clearly feel that at some point of their lives, you know? And some of them on a daily basis, you know? So I don't know. I, it was very emotional. It was really...

7:56 I, I found it very emotional. And you're, like, one of the people that it's just normal. [laughs] Why aren't there more of you? Huh? Yeah, why are you normal? Where, why- First of all, why are you normal? Yeah, how are you normal? I, I don't know. I think I'm- [laughs] I think I'm normal b- And how many more are there of you- [laughs] Yeah... out there? I call it normie adjacent, because I'm not...

8:13 I'm too interested in politics to be actually normal. Yeah. Um, I joke, I might have said this before, uh, perhaps on this podcast, but, uh, being a person who follows politics closely is like being a giant Days of Our Lives or a professional wrestling fan. Mm. Yes. Yes. And you're telling everyone around you, "No, no, no. Important things are happening every day." Yes. [laughs] I know. And, or every week on, on WWE, and they're like, "I don't think that's true." Yeah.

8:46 Or WWF, I think it is now. Whatever. Whatever. Um- Yeah... I don't think that's true. I feel like I could check in every couple of years and everything would be basically the same, and you're like, "No, it's really important." And, uh- I know... in bridging the gap between the super fan and the normal person, that's where I try to stand. Uh- Yeah.

9:03 [laughs] And then you realize you sound crazy when you're like, "Oh my God, did you see what Hasan Piker tweeted about Bari Weiss?" Yes. And people are like, "I don't know who any of these people are." Yeah, you're gonna have to explain the characters. Um- Yeah... so I try to stand in the middle of that. I think one of the reasons that I remain semi-normie, despite having been in the Washington, D.C.

9:22 area for way too long, for several decades now, um, I was like one of those kids who was like, "I'm gonna come up and do a year and then go back to North Carolina-" Yeah... "where the cost of living is low." [laughs] Anyway, part of it is that I have four kids, and I'm in a high cost of living area, and so by virtue of that, we live in constraints that a lot of other people live under. Uh- Mm-hmm. And- Yeah... you know, it's obviously, I'm very lucky. I have a great job. We do pretty well. I, in 2020, I had a flexible job, so I could still be home with my kids, and it wasn't a giant hardship.

9:59 Um, but I do think that the constraints placed upon us by our, [laughs] our, our, uh, economic constraints mean I drive a normal car. I go shopping for myself. Right. I- [laughs] Right... I do all the things. Right, right. And I think some people, uh, don't. Uh, many, many in this area, and sometimes in the, uh, profession, don't do all the normal stuff. Right. Mm. It's true. It's funny what you...

10:22 I love what you said about being into politics being like Days of Our Lives, because that was one of the hardest things for me as a kid. 'Cause I've been into politics, like, obsessively into politics- Right... since I'm, like, 12 years old. I mean, literally. And my friends, I, now looking back, I get it, they had no patience for me. I was like, e- everything was always so heightened for me.

10:43 I was, I would come in and be, "Bill Clinton," blah, blah, blah. And, and I li- 'cause I loved him, right? Yes. And I was, like, defending him and, and then this happened. And Anita Hill, I wanted to talk about Anita, and like, my friends are like, "We're 12. Like, I don't know wh- ooh, what are you talking about," right?

10:58 And it's really nice as an adult to find friends who, like, are the same weirdo as you are, and, like, the same freak, like- Yes... level as you are. It's really nice. And you know, when I wanna say, like, "Oh, Haley Stevens' fiance is voting for, uh, uh, Mike Rogers- Mike Rogers... and everyone in my family is like, "I don't know anything- What's that?... about what you're saying."

11:18 Yeah. I'm, like, freaking out about it. It's just nice to have friends who are like, "I know. It's crazy. Oh my God, this is a bellwether." You know, whatever. Yes. So anyway. Now imagine having to do that in the US and in Israel. I just- Right. I know. [laughs] That's like, there's, I have forgotten how to, like, fry an egg at this point- I know. [laughs]...

11:33 because my brain is consumed with all this stuff. Yeah. I would also say sometimes I, I also frequently think if I were more crazy, I'd make more money. But it is- Yeah... marketable to be someone who can be the person who answers questions for other normal people, right? Mm. So my- That's good to know... friend group of women, who are not particularly political- Yeah...

11:56 and are all over the spectrum, can come to me and say, "What is this story with this thing in Alaska?" Whatever it is, and they know that I will- Mm... give them a somewhat fair explanation of that without- Yeah... trying to, you know, proselytize them, I guess. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And- But do they pay you for that? [laughs] They don't. In fact, I should be like- You have no idea.

12:20 You know, this is- First one's on the house... high quality jibber jabbering here, okay? Yeah. There are two Dan Sullivans, but if you wanna know which one is a Democrat- [laughs]... and which one's a Republican, you have to pay me. Yes. [laughs] That's so funny. I tell my husband that all the way, all the time when he's, like, getting all of this great stuff for free, you know?

12:38 [laughs] Are your kids interested in politics, your older kids? Uh, yeah, I would say that we, we kind of do the same thing with them that my parents did with me. My, my parents were news junkies, but I would not say that they were political forces- Mm... uh, necessarily until we got older, sort of in the late '90s, early 2000s. Um, but we were interested in political philosophy.

13:01 We were interested in, uh, talking through- Mm... what different systems of government looked like, and we do that with our kids. So civics is important to us versus politics per se, but we- Mm-hmm... get into talking about a lot of issues for that reason. Um, and I think, it, you know, we also are in a place that's very liberal, so- Right...

13:22 I do have to talk to them about how to talk about their values without getting canceled, which is a- [laughs] Right. Oh, my God... it's a fun thing. [laughs] So yeah, okay. We'll take a quick break, and we will be back with Mary Katharine Ham to talk about the election madness, this time in the US. [upbeat music] Chaya Leva, what do we always say is the most important thing? How we look?

13:43 Uh, I mean after that. Oh, oh, in general, in life. In general, yeah. We need American Jews and Jews around the world to go to Israel. That's the most important thing. Truly life-changing. Do you remember the first time you went to Israel? Of course I do. The first time I went to Israel, I was 14 years old. It was 1994, and I remember everyone smoking on the plane. That's my first memory.

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14:44 [upbeat music] I'm Deborah Pardes, the host of Arc News Daily. What's happening in Israel and the Jewish world right now matters, but it can be hard to keep up, let alone make sense of it all. That's why we started Arc News Daily. Every weekday morning, I walk you through the most important news, give you the context you need, and let you know what to look out for next.

15:12 I don't try to convince you of anything, and I don't waste your time. On most days, I'll be in your ears for about 10 minutes or less. Then you can move on with your day, hopefully a little bit smarter than before. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or follow the link in the show notes. I hope to see you tomorrow. We're back with Mary Katharine Ham. Thank you so much for being here.

15:38 Okay, I, before we get into the elections, I wanna bring up a topic that is a little bit heavy, but I think you have such a unique way of talking about this. Um, and so just for a few minutes, if you don't mind, 'cause we have a lot of new listeners. But Mary Katharine experienced a terrible tragedy personally, okay? We talked about 9/11. We talked about October 7th.

15:58 But you, your husband, uh, died suddenly. Uh, you had two little kids, and you were left, uh, you know, with, alone without- Right... your husband and managed to keep on living. You got remarried. You had more kids. Can you talk a little bit, just give our listeners a little bit about grief, about resiliency. So yes. I, I went through this, uh, this was 11 years ago now, which is why I can talk about it in a, you know, calm manner.

16:26 Yeah. And it's, and I'm, I'm actually glad to talk about it because people need to hear stories like this. Exactly. And it's one of the... You know, you never wanna say there's a silver lining, but it's one of the things that comes out of these tragedies is that you can help people. And I get people, uh, referred to me all the time.

16:43 I, I call them my widow friends. I have many, many widow friends- Mm-hmm... uh, who come to me in the worst part of their lives, recommended to me by, by, or I recommended to them by friends, and I sort of try to talk them through it. Um, so my husband b- died in a cycling crash when I was seven months pregnant with my second child. So after that, I- Right... two months later had a baby, um- Right...

17:05 which actually was one of the really amazing ways that I was able to rebuild because I think something about it being so drastic a change in lifestyle- Right... going from one kid to two, uh, husband to no husband, single momming, was so drastic that it was just like, "You gotta do it." You just gotta- Yeah. You literally have to put one foot in front of the other. Mm.

17:27 And if you do not, you have two small people who you're going to let down. Right. And so- Right... that was my North Star, was that I had to take care of these kids. I had to do work to take care of those kids. I had to, um, keep my wits about me as best I could. Um, so when people come to me for advice when they're in a very dark place, uh, in a place of struggle, I tell them, "You have to literally put one foot in front of the other. Go outside once a day. Eat some protein.

17:54 Drink more water than wine." Um- Mm-hmm... these are guidelines for getting through that very early part. I also prayed. Good for life in general too. Yes. I mean, even if you're just having a- Right... a rough patch. Yeah. You know? I also prayed all the time. I'm a person of faith. Um, and- Mm... people say, and like, "Weren't you mad at God because this terrible thing happened to you?"

18:17 I was like, "Yeah, sure, but that, I can yell at him. That's- Right. [laughs]... how this works." [laughs] Exactly. Did he ever yell back? [laughs] I didn't hear that. Um, but I do- Yeah. Okay... feel like I, you know, I was blessed in very significant ways through... this thing that was very hard. There were people who took care of me.

18:34 My family is close enough by that they could come up on weekends and help me with the kids. Uh, my brother was working a remote job, which who worked a remote job in 2015? And he moved in with me for six months after my- Wow... baby was born. He, he moved in after the- Mm... funeral and never left for six months. Wow. And, um- Aw... he helped me raise the kids.

18:53 He took out trash, he fixed things. He was great. Um, and then, uh, you know, two and a half years later I met someone, uh, my wonderful husband, uh, Steve. Super competent, uh, involved dad Steve, and now, uh, we have four kids in a town home in northern Virginia. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Just busting at the seams. That's incredible.

19:16 Um, and I think I've, I've been watched over every step of the way, and I think it also, that, I do think that having lived a life as a married mom, single mom, uh, you know, a blended family situation, building a new life, in all of those iterations, has given me perspective on a lot of people's lifestyles- Mm.

19:36 Mm-hmm... um, which is part of what I hope I bring to the table when I'm doing my job, a- as far as the normie question goes. Yeah. Because being a single mom is a very se- serious [laughs] endeavor. Yeah, yeah. And I did it for a couple of years, and, um, even with a lot of blessings and a good job, phew, it's a heavy lift. Yeah. It is. Is, are, are, uh, are you and your brother still close? Does he still see the kids a lot?

19:58 Yes, we are still close. He lives back in North Carolina now. Uh, he is- Mm-hmm... now married with his own baby, who just turned one. Aw. Aw. So. But he must have a very special connection with your, your, uh, daughters, right? He really does. Two daughters? He really does. Mm-hmm. Uh, yeah. I think there's something so important about what you're saying, that people, and I'm gonna, uh, paraphrase it, but, uh, tell me if I'm right, okay?

20:19 People often get stuck in darkness, and it could be something huge like your husband being killed in a car accident- Right... in a biking accident. Or it could just be a person on a regular day having a dark moment, having a dark few days, you know? And you feel like you're never gonna get out of it.

20:35 You don't know how to get yourself up and out and better and f- feel that kind of resiliency that you need to, like, move past it. And- Yeah... we wanna tell people, like, it's possible. You can, everyone has the capability of doing that, and you don't have to be stuck in the darkness and in the grief and in the sadness. Like, you can have a whole life that's beautiful and wonderful. Yeah.

20:57 I mean, am I... D- do you agree? No, I, I, I definitely agree, and I think people, um, I worry about, I speak to young people a lot on college campuses- Yeah... and I worry about the messaging that they are getting about how fragile they are- Yeah... and about how they can't get through things. And, um, particularly when you're saying, like, you know, hearing an opposing view might be the thing that takes you out. Like, it's a mental health problem. Yeah.

21:19 [laughs] It's like, that, it, really guys, we need to build the skills- [laughs]... of being stronger than that. Um, and I- Mm-hmm... I genuinely worry about how people will operate, uh, when something big happens to them. And so that's why I try to talk about it pretty frequently, because you can get through it, and sometimes, look, the answer is, the unsatisfying answer is that this is gonna hurt for a while, and time is the only thing that's going to, like, lessen that.

21:45 Yeah. But during that- Mm-hmm... time period you could make it worse by- Yeah, right... sitting and doing nothing. And so being a person of agency, finding the reason that you are getting out of bed every day. I used to get out of bed every day and cook my kids a hot breakfast- Yeah. Mm-hmm... 'cause it gave me a reason to not just lie there, and was like- Mm...

22:03 you know, even if that's the only thing I get right all day as a parent- Mm-hmm... that's pretty good. Right. A hot breakfast- Yeah... is pretty good. That's why they say- It's true... the first, the first step if you're depressed or just, or in a funk, you know, the, the first step is brushing your teeth. Yeah. Like, get out of bed and do one thing. Yeah.

22:22 It's not, because sometimes when you're- Do one thing. It snowballs. Yeah. Yeah, when you're in a bad place, you can't tell somebody, like, "Go out and meet a friend," or, "Go," you know, "Go get a haircut," or, 'cause that might be, like, too- Too much... much to handle. But, like, you know what? Get up and change out of your pajamas. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So start. Small, small things can snowball.

22:41 I also tell people if it's useful, I d- I give people tips for supporting somebody who's in a really tough spot. Yeah. Particularly, like, a crisis situation. Mm. Um, and a couple tips are, one, uh, talk to them. Don't ignore them. So- Mm. Yeah... a lot of people get so in their heads about how to help someone, and it's more important to say something instead of worrying about the thing you're saying. And here's the deal.

23:06 The one thing that I think does tick people off when they're in crisis is, is if you're like, "Well, there's a, there's a reason for everything. There's a plan. There's a what," you know. Oh. If you do that kind of thing. Mm. Oh. However, people do that 'cause they don't want to acknowledge how bad the thing is. Just acknowledge how bad the thing is. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can just- Right, right...

23:22 you can just be like, "This is terrible. I'm so sorry. It feels so unfair." Um- Yeah... "While you're feeling terrible, I'd be happy to make you dinner." Um- Right. Yeah... "Take you for a walk." Uh, that's another tip I have. Uh, people in really serious crises sometimes don't know what they need, so if you step in and do something that is your skill that you're great at.

23:44 I have one friend who was great at finances and super competent in organizing things. She was like, "I'm taking care of the lawyers. I'm taking care of getting you to the appointments." Wow. "We're gonna- That is a good friend... we're gonna take your finances and get them figured out in this new era." I had another friend who loved to garden. She lived across the street.

24:00 She and her husband, when I was out of the house, would come and weed my front lawn and mow the front and back because they knew- Wow A single mom was not gonna be doing that. They also knew it might make me uncomfortable if they were there doing it while I'm in the house, so they would just sneak over- Mm... and do my lawn care. Aw, I love that. That's amazing. I love that. Right.

24:21 I w- I wanna- I once heard, um... What's her name? I forgot her name. Sheryl Sandberg. Mm-hmm. Um, who, who also, uh, lost her husband- Yes... suddenly, and she said, you know, the, the best thing to, to tell somebody when they're going through something like that is, "What, what, what can I do for you?" Like, "What do you need?" Yeah. And maybe- Yeah...

24:37 you don't always know how to answer that, but, you know, it's usually, like, be, be useful to somebody. Yeah, be use- Sounds like the answer... And, and, like, you can give them a, a list of offers, but sometimes it is really helpful to just say, "Hey, I'll take the kids on Tuesday morning. Would that work for you?" Right. Right. Yeah.

24:52 Don't just tell them- And the, it, it's funny-... "I'm gonna take the kids on Tuesday morning." Yeah. I, I know I say this a lot, but, like, everything is in the Torah. I mean, we learn everything- [laughs]... from the Bible. Seriously. But this, it happens to be that while we're having this conversation this week in synagogues across the world, we're gonna read the story of Abraham after he gets circumcised, right? Right.

25:09 It starts, the Parsha starts, he's 99 years old, and he can't move, obviously. He just had a major, uh, operation, and so he's at home. What happens? No anesthesia, I assume. What... Yeah, no anesthesia. What happens? God sends three angels to go visit him. Why? Because w- the Torah's telling us a very important lesson.

25:28 We live in a culture in America where we have big doors and locks, and we have rings, and we have bushes around our house. Don't come in. Right. Right? Privacy, everything is about... I had a, a, something happen to me. I don't wanna talk about it. It's private. I'm not gonna ask my neighbor why I haven't seen them in three weeks. We're very much about, like, private. Torah's like, "No, no, no, no, no." Abraham had surgery.

25:49 He needed guests. He needed visitors. He needed people to come check in on him. He, Hashem literally sent, God sent angels to visit him to teach us a lesson, that you just have to sometimes fight through that barrier, 'cause people need people. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a terrible thing, I think, in a culture to say that, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna respect everyone's privacy." Okay, don't be a nudnik. Right.

26:09 [laughs] I mean, you don't have to call the first day and be like, "So what did the doctor say?" I'm coming over. Right. Yeah, okay, you have to have a brain, right? It says that they waited three days to visit him. [laughs] But the point- Is that in the Torah, that you have to have a brain? Yeah. Yeah. You have to have a brain.

26:21 But the point is, stop with this, you know, "I'm an island unto myself, and I'm not gonna, I don't need anyone, and I don't want anyone, and I'm gonna be private." No. You're gonna be nosy, mix in, check in on people, and that way, when you need somebody to mix in and be nosy about you, they'll be there for you. Yeah. So that's my, uh, plug for this week's Torah portion.

26:42 No, I, I agree with you. Thank you. People always say, uh, "Isn't there some, like... Life seems quite hard. Isn't there some sort of guidebook?" And I'm like, "Why, yes." I- [laughs] Yes. [laughs] I have, I have one for you. Why, yes. [laughs] Um, wait. But speaking of guidebooks, and I know we said we'll talk about the election, but people- Yeah, we should... just have to wait, 'cause it's our podcast.

27:00 Exactly. Um, but Mary Katharine, you grew up Evangelical- Mm-hmm... right? We, we spoke about it a little bit, uh, last time you were on here. And are we, are we still good with... Do we still got you guys? Yeah, I, I think, I think so. Yes. I would say my- Okay... my resounding yes is a s- is a quieter yes these days. Hmm. Okay. Um, depending on where you are. But I think largely, yes. Um, I...

27:25 It's hard to say, because it's hard to sort through. I'm a very online person, right? So this is the normie- Right. Mm-hmm... consuming normie content versus consuming online content. And the online content- Hmm... can be very swayed in the direction of, oh, we've decided that this whole Israel project is not a great idea. But I think largely- Yeah...

27:43 as I said last time I was here, Evangelicals understand and are just sort of, um, red-blooded American, like, a little bit martial in spirit, uh, understand self-defense in a very real way. Um, that is- Hmm... that's one of the reasons that I think Southerners, uh, and are very, are... S- not Southerners, but, like, rural people, often Christian, often Evangelical, um, are very pro-Second Amendment, Amendment, because they believe deeply in the idea that you should be able to defend yourself and be capable- Mm-hmm...

28:17 of defending yourself. Mm-hmm. So I think that's something that, uh, they recognize in the Israeli spirit. Uh, they are also very connected to all of the places you can visit in Israel. Mm-hmm. And I think- Right... uh, for those who think about Second, uh, you know, rolling consequences, would like to preserve a Western democracy in charge of the beautiful, uh, pilgrimage sites that Christians want- Mm... to visit, right?

28:43 Because that goes out- Yeah... the window pretty quickly if that's not the case. Yeah, you don't want, like, the Jordanians in charge of that. Right. Right. So I, I think there's a couple fronts where, you know, uh, people always do the thing where it's like, oh, it's this big, it's about the end times, and that has never been my experience in the church.

29:00 The experience has been, oh, we understand that they're a, an ally to the US that we love. We understand the idea of self-defense. We understand that this is a place we'd like to visit someday, and we'd like it to be safe. And- Mm-hmm... uh, those things sort of unite into a, uh, a support. Yeah. And I think a lot of Jewish people need to hear that, and a lot of Israelis, because we don't know what we don't know.

29:22 Um, and I remember, I don't know if I told this story, but I don't know, sometimes you remember things that just stick in your head. But this must have been, like, I don't know, 30, 25 years ago in Israel. I was watching, I was young, I was watching a documentary, and this woman went, this Israeli woman went to meet, uh, she went to America. That was the, the, the concept of the documentary- Right...

29:42 [laughs] 'cause it was a long time ago. Um, and she met this, uh, Evangelical woman, and, um, and sh- the Evangelical woman was talking about Israel, and she was crying, she was so moved. And I don't know, I remember that really, like, it, like, influencing me and being like, "Okay, we're, we're not alone." And I wish more Jewish people would be less, I, I don't wanna say suspicious- Yeah...

30:04 'cause I know a lot of people really appreciate it, but there's always, like, you know, wait a minute, wh- why? Like, why us? Well, when you talk about, uh, people who would be served by looking at a map, you wanna talk about a community of people who knows what an Israel map looks like? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Go to the Bible quiz at [laughs]- Right...

30:24 at any- Right. Oh... at any Christian school. The Bible quiz to those men- Oh, that must cool... those kids know what an Israeli map looks like. They know what the Middle East looks like. They're not using the Bella Hadid Instagram map- Yeah. [laughs]... of like, you know- Well, like even- [laughs] You know which one I'm talking about?

30:38 A general knowledge of the history of the area and of the shape of the country, and then what it bec- This is actively taught in Christian schools and in- Right... Bible study and in evangelical communities. Are those kids cool, the ones that win the Bible quiz? Um. [laughs] Or are they the nerds? I'm not sure cool is the word. Countercultural. [laughs] I think they're cool. No, they, but they know a lot of stuff. Yeah.

31:02 I go, I go to, like, a, I hate to say white nationalist gym. That might be a little extreme. [laughs] But it's, it's adjacent, I would say, to a white nationalist gym, and every morning when I walk in there, um, I get bombarded with questions 'cause everybody's, like, super into the Bible and super into Jesus, and they just feel so badly for me that I don't get it.

31:24 [laughs] Like, they, 'cause they love me, and they, it's just, like, fill- Is that why they feel badly for you, Chila? It's literally killing them. Right. That like, I, yeah, I'm telling you, they just, they're like, "But Chila, like, come on. Like, what do you mean?" You know? So they, like, really... And I, I really love them. Like, you know- Right...

31:38 I'm, I'm, I'm teaching them a lot and helping them. And yesterday one of the women said to me, and it really, like, it, it stunned me, you know, she goes, "My father hates Jews." Hmm. And I, I was like, "Wow." I'm like, "Really?" Yeah. And she said, "Oh, you cannot imagine the things that he posts in our chat. Like, he hates the Jews."

31:57 And it was really interesting to watch everyone else's expression around because I think everybody in the group felt like they have someone in their family that also hates Jews- Right... a lot. Like, everybody was sort of nodding along with her. And I was standing there, and I'm like, [laughs] "Uh, well, this is super comfy right now." Yeah. But I, I, I really appreciate that they're open to, like, hear...

32:17 They ask me all the time, "What's going on with Iran? Why are we at war?" Like, they're hearing Tucker Carlson. Right. Right. They're hearing, you know, they're, this is the media that they're consuming. And then I walk in, all I wanna do, well, I don't really wanna work out, but all I real- all I come there to do is work out, and yet here I am like, "Guys, no, if you wanna be America first, you have to understand that we need to be a, a powerful country."

32:40 Right. "Why wouldn't we wanna have control of what's going on out of the Strait of Hormuz? Why wouldn't we wanna be," you know? And, and they're like, "Oh, oh." But they're surrounded by people who don't hear- Right... any of this argument, and it's like, I'm worried about it. I, I- Well, I, I'm worried, too, because, and I would love to go work out with you at that gym. That would be a fun experiment.

32:57 [laughs] Um, but I do wonder sometimes if my childhood experience... I, I wasn't raised in the church, but then by 18 and into college, I was, I was in evangelical circles, but I was in the South the whole time, and- Yeah... in the time that I grew up, um, antisemitism just was, like, not an issue. And now part of that- Yeah... is because there just weren't that many Jews in North Carolina in the '90s, right? Right. I'm sure. Hmm.

33:22 That's right. However, it wasn't something that people thought about or, like, were seeking to blame a community for problems in their lives, right? And so I do, you know, some people talk now post October 7th, when we've seen this turn in the world and with, uh, even with demographics that would normally have been very supportive, you go, "Okay, was this the, was th- this was the anomalous time."

33:43 Yeah. "Was this time where you did feel pretty safe?" Um- Right. Right... which is a very sad thing to com- contemplate, but also is not- Mm... out of line with the c- the arc of history, uh, [laughs] if you know about- Yeah, exactly. Mm... these things. And so that may have colored some of my experience, and I worry that people are influenced by these voices, um, and that they don't hear enough of the countering message, and that- Yeah...

34:07 the countering message might feel hectoring or, or r- or mean to them. So I'm glad that you're having this back and forth- Yeah... with people who do hear this and can have a conversation with you. Yeah, I mean, literally yesterday, a guy, a, an older man walked over to me. I was on the treadmill, and he's like, "Chila, I, I, I just, d- can't you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Can't you just believe it?"

34:29 I'm like, in my, you know, I- You were in-... I cover my hair all the time. I'm in my skirt. Right. I'm in my, I'm wearing, like, my headscarf, right? And I'm on the treadmill, and he's just, like, pleading with me because he cares about me. Right. And I felt so... I'm like, "Johnny, don't worry." [laughs] "Don't worry. I'm gonna be okay.

34:44 I promise you I'm gonna be okay. I, God's gonna take care of all of us. I'm gonna be just as good as you are." And he's really worried for me- Yeah... which it's very comforting. Johnny. I appreciate it. Have you seen these, um, all these huge billboards now that are, called jews.com? Mm-mm. Yeah. And it's, uh, it's Jews for Jesus. Mm. But the only bill- Yeah...

35:03 the only thing on the billboards, giant billboards, it's all over, and it says jews.com. Hmm. Yeah. I haven't seen this. And, yeah, and it's Jews for Jesus, but it's... First of all, congratulations to them for getting that URL. That- I know... must have been pretty hard. But- I know... I have, I have a f- I have a lot of, like, non-Jewish friends e- like, being like, "What is this?"

35:23 I'm like, "No, no, no, it's not, it's not us. Don't worry about it." [laughs] Yeah, it's [laughs] It's just marketing. It's so funny. So okay- I also-... Mary-Katherine... can I, one more thing about this. Oh, yeah. I do think also- Yes... when a lot of people become more secular, you lose some of the just general understanding of the history of our faiths and what they mean- Yeah... and just the, the, even the cultural touchstones.

35:47 There was a moment on- Yeah... uh, the Pod Save America, uh, podcast, where Jon Favreau was sort of attempting to identify the Exodus story of Passover, and he was- Mm... so ignorant of it that I just was like- Mm... how is this even possible for a person who reached high levels- I know... of leadership and education in the United States of America to not be able to put your finger on the idea of Passover and what precipitated it?

36:16 Yeah. I, that was amazing to me, and I do think without that basis, you end up with worse relations. God, that's such an important point Yeah, that's, uh, one of their problems over there at Pod Save America Pods. Like, aren't you embarrassed- Yeah. I am... that you don't know what the Passover story is? I am. That, that feels like a basic one. I know. Even I- I feel like even I know the Passover story...

36:34 there's a lot of movies about it, guys. [laughs] You don't even have to read the book. [laughs] You don't have to. That's really funny. It's interesting you mention that, because I was with my students this week, and we did a little... I gave them text, the biblical text of that story, and they were reading through it, and one of my students was so upset because he only knew the story from the Prince of Egypt movie. I mean [laughs]...

36:54 And in his mind, Moses takes his staff- Right... literally, we just had this conversation this week. Moses takes his staff, sticks it in the water, and the water splits. But if you read the biblical text, that never happens. It says, "Moses waved his hand, his arms- Right... over the water, and then a wind blew in from the east, and the, y- you know, it separated the waters and the Jews walked through, the Israelites walked through." And he's like, "That's not what happened."

37:17 [laughs] And I'm like, "I have news for you." Yeah. I have news. The movie, the, the cartoon movie you watched might not be the exact- Exact... source of the story. Right, right. It might not be the exact- To be fair, it's also in a lot of... I mean, to defend Prince of Egypt, which is a phenomenal movie- Yeah. Phenomenal, yes... it's like, also like the way it's depicted in every- Yes...

37:35 like, cartoon- It is. It is... and photo. I know. I know. Yeah, I would... Yeah. But, oh, the book is always better than the movie. I would second that. Essentially. The Prince of Egypt is an amazing film, and a good starter- It is... place for Jon Favreau- It is... should he be interested- It's [laughs]... in the story of Exodus. I'm, and it's like, also has my fave- Yeah...

37:51 Val Kilmer in it, so. Mwah. Oh. Oh. I know, Val Kilmer. Rest in peace. He's still alive. Rest in peace. No. No, he died last year. He passed away. Oh. I know. Aw. We'll be right back. [whoosh] Here's a chosen people problem we can actually solve. Finally, because we're not doing anti-Semitism today. No, I'm over it. Today, we're doing money, and specifically how you should be spending yours.

38:12 [beep] A bunch of rich Jews- Listen, rich Jews, give us your money so that we could do this show. You love it, and we could do more of the show- Yeah... if you just pay. Pay. Don't be cheapos. [beep] Join Ark Plus. You'll get exclusive content and ad-free listening across the Ark network. And also, your support allows us to say what we actually think, even when we probably shouldn't.

38:33 When you join Ark Plus, you get to hear us behind the paywall, completely unleashed and ourselves. Yeah, this is us on our best behavior right now. And by the way, not just us. You'll get exclusive content from Call Me Back, For Heaven's Sake, and Ark News Daily. Ooh, wait till you hear what Deborah Pardes is like after dark.

38:49 If this show has ever made you laugh, taught you something, or made you yell at your phone, become an Ark Plus member today. You keep independent Jewish media going, and we get to keep doing whatever this is. Join Ark Plus. It's good for the Jews. Is it? I don't know, but it's definitely good for us. [upbeat music] Hi, I'm Daniella Hartman, president of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem.

39:12 And I'm Yossi Klein Halevi, senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute. What's more important, to be feared by your enemies or morally true to yourself? Should Israel strive to be a nation among nations, or should it accept the fact that it is now a fortress apart? What do Israelis and diaspora Jews owe each other? If you're Jewish- Or a friend and ally-...

39:34 these questions have been gnawing at you these past few years... for some of you, like for us, these questions have been keeping you up at night, and for some they've been simmering in the background waiting for answers. But dilemmas don't always have clear answers. What they do deserve are honest and respectful debates. And as it happens, Yossi and I love to challenge each other to get to the bottom of things.

39:59 We look at current events through a lens that speaks to us most deeply, a Jewish lens. So if today's Jewish dilemmas are on your mind, tune into our conversation on For Heaven's Sake, a partnership between Ark Media and the Shalom Hartman Institute. You can find For Heaven's Sake on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you there. [whoosh] All right, we're back with our friend Mary Katherine Ham. Okay, who's gonna win the elections?

40:27 What's happening? [laughs] Y- your election. This is, well, this is coming out Tuesday. Mm-hmm. So it is the day of the elections. Okay. Oh. Um, t- we just, I just, as an Israeli, I just want you to tell me, like, how crazy it is so I can feel better about Israel. Um, it's a little crazy. Oh. The, the, uh, forecasts- Mm... are odd.

40:43 Like, the idea that, um, that Republicans would lose Kansas but keep Maine, that, I, it's a strange- Right. Texas. Um. Yeah. I wanna see this before I start, which sounds like a cop-out, and maybe it a little bit is. I love about the American people, and the Israeli people just, uh, illustrated the same thing, but it's the beauty of democracy. Mm-hmm. They can't be predicted, actually- Yeah... in perfect polling. Yeah.

41:06 And that is a- Right... feature, not a bug. Because as soon- Yeah... as you can perfectly predict what the people are going to do at the polls, the people who make the, uh, polling industry and the AI and the robots and all that are gonna be like, "Why don't we just simulate elections? Like, I'm not sure we really need to do- Yeah... all this messy people stuff." [laughs] Yeah, it's true.

41:25 And the messy people stuff is what it's all about, and you have to do the work, and you have to be on the ground, and you have to convince people. So that's, um, a beautiful way to say that I'm probably wrong, um, [laughs] about anything- Yeah... I tell you. But, uh, look, I think the possibilities range from a medium bad to a very bad night for Republicans.

41:45 Mm-hmm. Uh, the- Right... universe of flippable s- seats is smaller than it used to be because everybody has sorted geographically into places where they agree- Mm-hmm... with each other, or, uh, gerrymandering has made districts more red- Mm-hmm... or more blue. So there are just fewer of those purplish districts where you can pick off people in a, in a year, uh, like this. However- Mm...

42:10 Democrats seem to be playing in Congressional seats that are Trump plus seven seats, and that's- Right. Mm. That universe is not super small. I'm just saying you're not prob- you're not gonna get into that, like, that 60-ish House switch rate from the early days is not the thing we're doing- Yeah... anymore, and I think 2022 disabused us of the notion that these huge- Uh, swings were always gonna happen when it feels like the wave is coming.

42:37 Because in 2022 I said, like, the, the Democrats clearly aren't dealing with kitchen table issues. Uh, Republicans are likely to benefit from people being ticked off about COVID still, and there will be this backlash. And it turned out it didn't go down like that. And I was very- Right... wrong about that one, 'cause I didn't see this going a different way. Um, part of that is that there's just fewer flippable seats.

42:56 The map is different than it- Mm-hmm... used to be. There was a time, I think it was 2010, where some Republican who was head of, like, the Illinois GOP, which is not strong, um, [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Was like, "I'm happy to report that we've, uh, flipped all five of our four targeted races," which means things were coming- Oh my God... off the map that they didn't even expect to be- Yeah... in the game.

43:18 So that's, that's a situation Republicans could be in on Tuesday, where things are popping up- Hmm... that you're like, "Was that even in the m- Right... matrix of what we were considering?" I tend to think we're looking at a medium to medium plus bad [laughs] night. I think the House is- Yeah... likely gone. Uh, I've thought- Yeah... that for a while 'cause there's so little wiggle room.

43:42 And then you have on top of that, uh, the historical precedent that it's hard for the party in power. And then you have on top of that some real self owns from Republicans- Mm... including my favorite idiotic story, which is that Henry Cuellar, a Democratic congressman from the south of Texas, uh, whose district I think was in, among those redistricted, um, he was indicted for, like, major conspiracy issues.

44:09 And- Oh, no... that would've given Republicans the seat in all likelihood because they have a strong candidate, uh, Judge Tano down there. And Trump was like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna 40 chest this one." He pardons Henry Cuellar- Oh, no... thinking that Henry Cuellar is going to switch to be a Republican and then the seat will be Republicans. But like, you know, he didn't really get that in writing. [laughs] Oh my God.

44:36 [laughs] So Cuellar's like, "Thanks." If you can't tru- trust a criminally indicted politician, who can you trust- Yeah... really? Exactly. So Cuellar's like, "Thanks for the pardon. I will be declaring as a Democrat in this seat." Oh my God. And so if you're giving up stuff like that, [laughs] other things are- Yeah... falling, uh, for normal reasons.

44:58 So that's just, like, an example of the self owns that, like- Hmm... I think a lot of the redistricting was maybe a little too clever by half and didn't get the job done that they thought it was gonna get done. Uh, a lot of Sturm and Drang for very little difference in the map, maybe one seat, uh, net for Republicans. So that's that.

45:17 Senate, I might be wish casting a little bit to say that Republicans keep it or it ends up 50/50, but I am a little worried that we end up in Alaska trying to figure out what the heck is happening. Mm-hmm. And that that would- [laughs] Hmm. It's, it's unlikely that that would be the place we decide control of the Senate. But if it is, that sucker's gonna be in court for a while. Oh my God. Yes. What do you, uh...

45:41 What do you think is gonna happen in Michigan? Uh, again, I don't know if I'm wish casting or no, but it's a very blue year. Uh, El-Sayed should be very ahead by all rights. I think Haley- Mm-hmm... Stevens would've romped. Yeah. And I want to say for the record that I, uh, spoke up for her and rooted for her, not so much that it would hurt her, you know, 'cause I'm a Repub- I'm right coded, so, um, but I- Mm...

46:04 stuck up for her and wanted her to win because I don't want people like El-Sayed or DSA folks- Mm... to be one step from this powerful position, even if we think they're less, uh- Mm. They're more vulnerable candidates. Haley Stevens probably- Mm-hmm... would've romped, but Haley Stevens being in the Senate is like a normal Democrat being in the Senate. Right. Yeah. Um, so I want him to lose.

46:26 I think he's very off-putting on, in addition to my issues with his, uh, ideology. I also heard he's, like, 5'6", which I think- Oh, yeah. You can see that... feels appropriate. He's g- he's got, as I say, so much, uh, short gym guy with a big watch energy. [laughs] [laughs] You know what I'm talking about. I mean, I have to say- You've seen these guys... like, objectively- Yeah.

46:45 [laughs] Objectively, not an unattractive man. No, I... Well, listen, I say this too. Cute communists who do cute things on social media are a danger. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he is one of them. Be careful, ladies. He's- And some men. Men. Yeah. Men especially. Mm-hmm. I think it's much worse for- [laughs] It's much harder for men. Do you remember when, uh... W- what's his name?

47:05 I think the, the, the guy in the wheelchair, Ma- Madison. Yes. Is that his name, the Republican? Yeah. Crawford. What was his name? Matt- Yeah. Uh- Who was- Crawford?... very, very hot- Cawthorn... and, like, very, very crazy. Yes. Yeah. Yes, Cawthorn. Cawthorn. Yeah. And when, um, when he won, um... I forget when this was.

47:23 He was a weird- But somebody on Twitter, a gay man on Twitter, posted a photo of him, and it was, like, in all caps and it said, "Not one word, gays." [laughs] "Not one word." [laughs] Yeah. So I, I, I w- I just wanna say, like, I like a split government. I'm just- Yeah... 'cause I hate the government in general, so I'm happy when they don't... They, they're fighting and don't do anything.

47:46 Um, but so I don't care. Like, I'm happy when midterm elections go the opposite way- Right... of whatever the president is or whatever. I'm fine with that. And generally I wouldn't care if the H- the Senate flipped to Democrats. I wouldn't care if the House flips to Democrats. But I'm really, really, really stuck on this Michigan race, and I'm...

48:04 I have such a dread in my stomach, like, if he wins what that means for the future of the Democratic Party- Mm-hmm... for the future of our country. I, I, I, I don't know. Maybe I'm overblowing it too much, but, like, I watch what's going on in Europe and I know everyone's gonna scream, "Oh my God, Islamophobic. You're only saying that because he's a Muslim."

48:23 No, I'm not saying it 'cause he's a Muslim. There are many Muslims who I would be happy to vote for, okay? And I- There are many Muslims who don't apologize for Hezbollah. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he is a uniquely terrible person- Yeah... I think. And, like, we see it in New York. I mean- Mm... everyone was like, "Oh, Mamdani's gonna be fine." No, he's not fine. Yeah.

48:41 It's not fine that Mamdani is the mayor of New York City. It's actually not fine. It's the opposite- But then they did a scavenger hunt... of fine. Haven't you heard? Well, here's- Yeah... here's my question- He is-... is, like, riddle me this Did I need to ask Mehmet Oz when he was running for Senate in Pennsylvania- Yeah... to disavow- Yeah... the Muslim Brotherhood? No, I did not. You know why? Right. No.

49:01 He's never avowed the Muslim Brotherhood. [laughs] Exactly. So that's- Exactly... the difference. Um, I, I think- Exactly... the left is being deliberately obtuse about this, and wielding the only cudgel they ever wield, which is racism and Islamophobia. Yeah. Um, I think it's a lot to ask people, particularly Jewish voters, to happily go and pull the lever for a guy who can't muster- I know...

49:26 "This is horrific, period, it should never happen," for an attempted bombing on a Jewish preschool in his own state. [laughs] I know. Like, I know. Yeah, yeah. It's shocking. And, and- And then Jews are telling us to vote for the- I know... for him. There are Jew... That God save America. I know. I c- I, I, I literally, I would take my chicken soup and pour it on their head.

49:46 [laughs] That's how I feel about the guys on both sides of America. That'd be a waste of good chicken soup. No, I, I, like, I, I, I just, I want to feed them, like, old gefilte fish- [laughs]... and they should get a stomach ache. Like, it makes me so upset- Yeah... that, that they're gaslighting us into this. Yes.

50:00 Jews are literally being gaslit into saying, "Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right, we're gonna vote for this guy to save democracy." Wait, can I get you madder? Ugh. Can I get you both a little madder? Oh, man. The worst part is that then those people come out and somebody finds, like, an old tweet of some right-leaning person's mother- Right. Right, of course...

50:19 that says something a little off-putting about Jews, and they're like, "Anti-Semitism is, is crazy." Yeah. I'm like, really? Mm. You're just trying to get me to vote for a guy- I know... who didn't want to say that it was a great thing that Hassan Nasrallah is no longer alive. Yeah. Right. I- Right Have you seen the story, speaking of, like- Ugh...

50:37 the Nasrallah and, like, not wanting to say bad things about terrorists, have you seen the story out of Berlin? Yeah. Oh, yeah. With the woman running for mayor there? Yeah. Where she's st- she's like, "I'm scared for my life, so I'm not gonna point out that Hamas is bad." Yeah. By, by the way, I don't know what I'm more scared of, like, Hamas or sending a document to somebody with the, with the, like, comments in it. Dude. [laughs] And I know exactly what happened. Oh, yeah.

51:00 Like, so this woman, she got questions from an, from an interview, and she sent back her response, but she accidentally left the notes in there where they co- you know, where her staff comments, and basically admitted that, and she's a very left-wing candidate, admitted that she's afraid of some of the, the Hamas factions.

51:18 Yeah. And I, I don't, I don't think a, a guy like Abdul-Sayed is afraid of these people, I think he just agrees with these people. Well, the, the thing with him, and this is why I do not, it... I've, I've dug in on this too, Haila, because I'm being gaslit, and that ticks me off. Yeah. So it makes me madder- Right... about the thing. [laughs] Um- Yeah...

51:35 for instance, uh, just in the couple weeks after the attack in Michigan, uh, done by a Hezbollah-linked sympathizing man, he's campaigning with Hassan Piker, like, three weeks later. Yeah. Who has declared that Hezbollah's flag is his favorite flag of the flags. I know. Mm-hmm. And if, like, if the- I know...

51:58 parties were reversed, [laughs] like, the idea that this would, anyone would let this slide is crazy. He also has his own name on the letter to Morsi. It's not like you even have to go to his relatives. Um, I, I think if he wins, I think you're right that it has implications because he's a very, um, arrogant guy who very clearly believes he has this mission and that part of it is this.

52:20 If he had the right answers to the easy questions like, "Is Iran or Israel more dangerous?" Yeah. He would just say them. An easy one. He doesn't say them- Yeah... because he doesn't believe those answers. Right. Right. Um, so I think he, if he wins, it does have implications for this fight that the Democratic Party's gonna have. Um- Oh, yeah... if he wins, it'll largely be because it's a very blue year.

52:40 I don't think it's because he's super talented. I, he's talented at making TikToks for 30 seconds, but it does not wear well- Yeah... after that. Um- Right... although, a lot of politics is gonna be making TikToks in the future, so, uh, an issue. I know. Yeah. It's so depressing. Um, if he loses, and I think he can, it's because, uh, it's actually hard to put together a coalition.

53:01 And if you're dropping any large number of Jewish and Black voters, which are huge parts of the, uh, Democratic coalition, then you're gonna be in trouble. It's, it's gonna be tricky for you, and I think that Jewish and Black voters in Michigan are looking at this and expressing, "I'm not sure that I trust him, and I'm also wondering why my concerns aren't being taken seriously."

53:28 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 'Cause they're, they're being gaslit too. It's not just me on the right. They're [laughs] Yeah. They're being told, "Shut up and vote"- Yeah... "like you always do." I have a question. Um, just, it just came to my head, and I probably shouldn't even ask this question. But is, it's very interesting to me to think about Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar- Yeah...

53:46 right, who are two very hateful, horrible women in Congress. Mm-hmm. Right? And both are Muslim, and they're, I, I find them just absolutely abhorrent, right? And yet, the men have a easier time, I think, of pretending or acting like- Right... they're normal Americans. Yeah. Or like, I don't know how to explain it.

54:07 Like, there, I think there is something about the gender piece of it- Mm-hmm... that, like, Mamdani and El-Sayed, I think that will be the play, is that it's- Mm... gonna be easier to get DSA males- Males, yeah... right, to, like, get elected. Maybe they look more normal. They don't ha- I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean, I know Ilhan Omar definitely wears, like, the- She does, yeah... the hijab.

54:29 But, but, but like Ra- I, I don't know why women, I think it's harder for women to, like, pass through as, like- Just normie Americans- Right... uh, you know, on the left, you know, who, like, care about the environment and healthcare and, and your job. But also, we hate Israel- Right... and we want Jews out of- Ugh... this country or whatever. Yeah.

54:48 I also think he's a little more charming than they are. Yeah. Like, he's a lot more- Well, that's what it is... relatable. That's, that's, I think that's the thing I'm saying, is that men have an au- I think, have a easier time being charming than women do. [laughs] I, I mean, I'm just... Let's be honest.

55:01 Like, I- That's the social media clip that we're gonna have for this. No, you're not. But, you know. No. [laughs] You're not cutting that, but it's true. I think male politicians have a better- Well-... a much easier time- Yeah, no, I... Women and-... playing that charm... women in general, and you can blame the patriarchy or what have you, like, do have to walk- Whatever... a different line.

55:18 Also, I would say, like, someone like- Yeah... someone like Omar is afflicted with the same arrogance that he has, and she's gotten herself in hot water, and [laughs] and then she's, like- Yeah... plays this video of her and her husband, like, out walking on the beautiful lakes of Minnesota. But there is this impulse of hers that she can't fight, which is that she puts a Somali language soundtrack on it that's like, "We will avenge ourselves against the- [laughs]... horrible enemies."

55:43 And it's like, girl, just- [laughs]... just walk on the lake for a second. That's- I know. I know. Just calm down. Yeah, or put some nice, like, Minnesota band or something. Something. No, can't do that. Can't do that. Like, some, a local musician. But it's like Bill and Hillary. Like, I always think about them. Like, Bill was charming, and you, he could get away with every- Mm-hmm... like, you know what I mean?

56:00 Like, I, I fell for, I fall for him every day still. I love Bill Clinton. Like, you know, I... And Hillary just couldn't get... She just couldn't capture that same charm and the same- Yeah... sort of, like, flirtiness. But also, she is pretty charming. I think you're right. Yeah, she, she is. Right? She is. She, she might be one. I mean, if you don't listen to the words, but- Yeah. No, the, and the- Yeah, she's, she's pretty good...

56:19 to, to devil's advocate on this, uh, the flipped version of this is I love him, but Mitt Romney didn't have it. Yeah. But Ann Romney did. Yeah. I w- Mm. I have been in, uh- Hmm... he's so competent. He would've been such a great president. But when she stood up in a room and started talking, she had the audience in the palm of her hands. Um, I think- Yeah... actually J.D. and Usha are like this a little bit, too.

56:44 Yeah. Usha is very- Hmm... um, poised, always just absolutely herself, and that- Yeah. Yeah... people respond to that. And he can be funny, and he can be- Yeah... clever, but she has a different thing that's more delicate- Yeah... and more, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Savvy, maybe. Um- Yes, yes. Yeah. I agree... that people, I think, respond to.

57:04 And so, I m- I've always said that, like, if you don't have it- Yeah... that is, if you wanna be a national politician, that's basically inescapable. Of course, I guess there are, like, the Arlen Specters of the world who, uh, defy that, so [laughs]- Yeah. I know. Well, yeah. I know. I mean, and Biden's pretty charming, too. Yeah, he was in his way.

57:22 And, and Trump is hilarious. And Trump's hilarious. That's his- Yeah. I think Trump's, I think, I think 90% of Trump's appeal is that he's funny. He makes people laugh. Yes. And people miss this, too, because other people will be mean on the trail, and they're like, "Why is it okay for Trump to be mean, and it's not okay for this person to be mean?" It's like, 'cause he's mean and funny.

57:37 Yeah. Mean and funny is better and plays better than just mean. Yeah. But it, it's like I see these clips of Nick Fuentes, and I get, I, I, it's the same problem with him because Nick Fuentes is actually really funny. Yeah. And it scares the shit out of me because I watch his clips and I'm like, [laughs] haha. And then I'm like, oh my God, stop it. [laughs] Stop laughing at this freak. Like, he is not normal.

57:59 We have to, like, dis- I mean, he is so d- I think he is so dangerous. I think we should be suspicious of funny people. Oh, no. [laughs] Well, no, Ilana Glazer is funny, too. Yeah. Oh, God. Like, all, a lot of these, the horrible people are funny. No, but y- they're, he, Nick Fuentes is uniquely, I think, dangerous because I see people in the Jewish community who are like, "I love Nick Fuentes. Oh my God."

58:21 [laughs] "He's so amazing." And I'm like, Nick Fuentes hates you. Yeah. Okay? He will, he will deport all of us if he had the chance to. Like, stop it. Where to, though? But he has that charm. To Israel? To- I mean, yesterday I saw a video of him. Or to Poland. I know. Well, probably Poland. But yeah, he, uh, which fine, Poland actually seems to be doing- I don't wanna go to Poland. Why?

58:39 It seems to be doing pretty well right now. But- Ugh... yeah, he, he had a video yesterday where he's like, "I wanna have Shabbat. I'm sick of the goyim. The goyim are losers. The Jews are winners. I wanna be around winners." And he's like... It's hilarious, right? You're like, oh my God, that's hila- And then you're like, oh, boy. Yeah. Stop watching Nick Fuentes videos right now. Step away.

58:59 Step away- I think part of- From-... well, part of, like, the solution to many things is to step away from- Yeah... like, a lot of internet feeds. [laughs] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and the word goyim- Yes... is funny. It's like, it's become, like, a real, like- Yeah... I, I don't wanna say that it's like the N-word, but I feel like it's become the thing that people say to get a reaction. Mm-hmm. Or, like, not get- Yeah...

59:20 a reaction, but, like, you know you're not supposed to say it. Yeah. But it's really, uh, I think it's r- kind of, like, crept into normie world. Now people will say things like goyslop. Yeah. And- Yeah... you know, the, the roots of it are very antisemitic, right? Because you're, you're assuming that this is how Jews view- Think of you, right... the world and- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but it's become, like...

59:41 I, I feel like a lot of kids who say things like goyim and goyslop now are just, like, trying to be, like, funny, and they don't understand that they're just being manipulated. Yeah. Yeah. It's ed- the, the edge lording. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna ask a hard question. You could pass- Mm-hmm... on it if you want. What is the deal with Megyn Kelly? Do people talk about her at Fox? No. Like, what- I- What happened to her?

1:00:01 The, the way that f- the way that Fox works often is, like, once somebody is gone, the person is, like, not- Is dead... in the... Not- Yeah. [laughs] Just not talked about. Hmm. Like, it, it is not- Okay... in those circles- Right... at least professionally, no. Yeah. Um, but look, I, I, from the very beginning with, uh, Erika Kirk, it's like I'm on widow protection duty here. Yes, yes. This is my gig. And, um- Yeah.

1:00:26 Yeah... sometimes I think... Look, I think the Candace Owens problem is very tricky because- Yeah... uh, I think she has a personality disorder. One of our issues is that the personality disorder economy is very robust. Hmm. And the more you lean in- Mm-hmm... to your personality disorder- [laughs]... the, uh, the more clicks you're gonna get. So true. Somebody like that wants attention, and so she's found the perfect medium- Yes...

1:00:47 for that. Uh, and the worse things you do, the more clicks you get. And I think a lot of people get addicted to the click economy, and then you can't get satisfied unless you say something horrific. And then people start saying horrific things, and then they see the clicks, and they're like, "I should say more horrific things 'cause I'm getting all these clicks."

1:01:08 Uh, and that is a really un-fun way to live life, I think. And, uh- Yeah... one of the reasons- Yeah... you asked about, like, staying normal, one of the reasons I stay normal is because as a person of faith with four children to raise and seventh grade math on my plate- [laughs]... I do not have time to do click metrics with every word that comes out of my mouth. And therefore, the easy thing becomes to s- just say what I believe and not to farm. I don't wa- I'm not a farmer- Yeah... actually.

1:01:39 [laughs] Right. I'm not a click farmer. Right, right, right. I am just a person who talks. Right. I have a theory about Megyn Kelly, but it, it might be too generous to her. Hmm. Let's hear it. Um, I think, 'cause let's be honest, there are people in our community, in the Jewish community or the pro-Israel community, who will kind of attack you or whatever any time you say something that is not 100% aligned with Netanyahu or whatever.

1:02:02 I get attacked sometimes, and I'm like the, you know, Little Miss Zionist. Um, and I think she got attacked by some idiots for maybe things, you know, maybe s- coloring a little bit outside the line. Um, but she was not smart enough to realize that, A, this should not affect her views, and- Right... B, this is just like Twitter noise. Yes. Right. So, and she just doubled down.

1:02:25 She's like, "Oh, you're calling me an anti-Semite, you know, person on Twitter with 40,000 followers? W- like, watch me now." Yeah. Well, I also think we all have to fight as public figures. I have oppositional defiance disorder too, man. Like, I'll... [laughs] Is that my personality disorder? Right, right.

1:02:42 When people tell me not to say something, like I said with the gaslighting on Michigan, I d- I dig in deeper because- And now you're gonna say Goyslop all the time 'cause I told you not to. [laughs] Exactly. Yeah. We have to fight that impulse. We are adults who mu- who must evaluate that, and I j- I just think on the, on the Erika Kirk stuff, it was so beyond the pale. Ugh. For me- Yeah, it was gross...

1:03:04 that, much like October 7th, was, like, such an easy moral test to pass. Like, oh- I know. A flare went up... should we be talking mad junk in public about this woman who just lost her husband to a- I can't believe she smiled a week after... yeah, to an assassin's bullet. Yeah. It's disgusting. I'll stick up for her every time because there are pictures of me at my husband's funeral smiling with my friends from high school who came to support me. Yeah. Right, right. Oh, that was terrible.

1:03:29 Terrible that I might be functional. Terri- uh, people have odd- Also, like, that you're a human being. Mm-hmm. It's sometimes a lot of this is, is like, I also think a lot of the Israel stuff is like this, where it's just your view of the world has always been filtered through, I don't know, like, online stuff, and you forget that people are- Yes...

1:03:48 normal. Yes. And sometimes they don't act like they would in a movie- Yes... about war or about grief or whatnot. Megyn Kelly has one problem. She is hungry. Look at her. Mm. She needs a sandwich. She needs food. She does not get enough oxygen to her brain. The chicken soup that you were gonna dump on- Yeah... on Pod Save America, give it to her instead.

1:04:09 I'm telling you, I really think she's hungry, and if she would just eat a little more and get more calories, she might, her brain would function more. Bake her a challah. So- Send her a challah. Yes. She needs to eat challah. We, we made carbs the enemy, but really carbs help us. So I, I'm- [laughs] That's true... start- That's Goyslop... I think our new campaign. The Jews are pushing carbs on you now.

1:04:27 Yeah, [laughs] exactly. That is everything you need to know. All right, Mary Katharine, before we let you go, what, um, 'cause we, we've been talking a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, nonsense about people, which is always fun. Yes. But who do you, who do you love listening to? Like, who are some of your favorite commentators or people to read? Um, let's see. As far as- Aside from Chosen People Problems. Yes. [laughs] Um, by the way, I love the name. [laughs] Uh, it's great. Thank you.

1:04:50 Oh, thank you. Uh, I like, um- We're getting used to it... well, I listen to, for political stuff, Ruthless and Commentary frequently. Yeah. Mm. Um, I feel like that gives me a pretty- Yeah... a well-rounded take on both foreign policy and, um- We love the Ruthless guys... domestic. Well, I love the Ruthless guys. I won't speak for Haille. And then I listen to specific guests on other podcasts, right? Mm.

1:05:12 Like, if I'm looking for something that's going to, uh, help me understand an issue, I will go seek out specific, uh, specific commentators who know those things. Um- Mm-hmm... I sometimes listen to the FDD Morning Minute- Mm. Ah... to get a, to get a grasp on what's happening in the world because I don't have...

1:05:31 Doing domestic politics, I don't have a lot of time to take in a ton of information on that, but that gives me a quick- Yeah. We're big FDD fans here. Yeah, quick understanding of- Yes... of what we're dealing with, and then I just listen to a bunch of stuff for fun and audiobooks with my kids and such. Fun. Fun. I know, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh, sometimes I do the Cook Political Report, uh- Yeah...

1:05:50 podcast. They, they're just like a by the numbers. It gives me good information. Mm-hmm. Allison Rosen, who's a, a podcaster and comedian, I listen to her, and my friend, um, Jenna Kim Jones, who is another comedian who lives in, uh- Mm... Georgia. Mm. She's adorable and has an adorable family, and she also has four kids, and, uh, she's sweet, and I like listening to her. That's cute. All right. Aw. That's some good, good recommendations.

1:06:12 And then Bethany has Mom Wars now, which I have appeared on. Yeah. So. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But yeah. Yeah. I do a lot of- Oh, you should listen to Arc News Daily too. Okay. 'Cause that's like 10 minutes. Yeah. Kinda like, it's not like the FDD Morning Brief, but it's a good 10 minutes. Um, and now that I said that, I don't have to record another ad for them, hopefully. [laughs] Nice.

1:06:32 [laughs] My friend Matt Whitlock does the, um, the 10 Minute Drill. That's a nice one for American politics as well. Mm. Um, but I listen to a lot of audiobooks with my kids. Mm. Um, I read to my kids. Mm. That's what I like to do in my spare time, is actually read to them physically. That's so nice. What are they reading now? Right now we are doing a book called The Bletchley Riddle, which is a, um- Mm...

1:06:52 like, middle grade-... fiction, uh, historical fiction about, uh, code breaking during World War II. Oh. Oh, cool. Yeah. That's awesome. I love historical fiction. It's very well-written. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. Do you the books, the Geronimo Stilton, do you know who that is? I do, yes. Geron- my kids love... We had, we have the whole set. My kids loved. It was like these m- are they mice? They're mice I can't remember.

1:07:12 Mouse detectives, yes. My kids are all older. They're detectives- Oh... and journalists, and it's a really cute little- And they all have huge last names... it's cute... it's adorable. Yeah. It's really cute. Is there like a Pod Save America with mice, and like a Ruthless with mice? [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um, I've... it's my firm belief- Exactly...

1:07:27 that every, uh, child should have one of those series of mystery, uh, books that there's a go-to for them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mine was Cam Jansen as a kid- Yeah... who was the kid- Yeah... kid detective with a photographic memory. Um, they're so easily consumed. Oh. [laughs] They teach you so much about how stories are written and structure of, uh- Yeah...

1:07:45 of a story with a mystery, and, uh, and my kids just ate 'em up. Interesting. We had an Israeli person that- I loved Nancy Drew when I... I was a Nancy Drew person. Mm-hmm. I, I loved... And Nancy Drew drove a white convertible BMW. She did. And for years that was like my, I thought that was how you made it in life is if you had a white convertible BMW- Yeah... 'cause that's what Nancy Drew had.

1:08:07 Nancy Drew was pretty glamorous that way, yes. She was always dressed to the nines. Yes. I don't know. [laughs] Yeah. I learned everything- I know... everything I need to know I learned from The Baby-Sitters Club. Mm, that's another one. Yeah. That my cousin in America would send me in a box when she was done reading them. [laughs] And I was like, "Wow, these kids go to school on a yellow bus. They have lockers."

1:08:24 It's f- do you remember Sweet Valley Twins and Sweet V- Of course. So I, I was allowed to read Sweet Valley Twins, but what I was not allowed to read was Sweet Valley High. Sweet Valley High, yeah. My mother would not let us read Sweet Valley High. No. I used to sneak them, and I would sneak it from my friends, and I would read them without my mother knowing, because Sweet Valley High already was like boyfriends and- Mm-hmm...

1:08:43 it was very- No, that's a gateway drug to Beverly Hills 90210. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, to porn actually. You can't, you, you can't. It was a gateway to porn. Jessica and Elizabeth Wakefield. So... Oh, yeah, ex- Yeah... well. I don't know why I remember their names. Anyways. Now, now you have, now you have to be- All right... very careful with the books. One of the reasons I read to my kids is like I need to pick out the things- I know.

1:08:59 Oh. [laughs] They... Don't, do not unleash- I know... your children in the graphic novel section of the public library. Do not do that. No. [laughs] No, no, no. Uh, well Mary Kathryn Hamm, thank you so much for, uh, coming on. We hope a disaster doesn't strike tomorrow, [laughs] but I don't think it will. Thank you.

1:09:16 Catch, uh, Normally and Getting Hammered wherever you get your podcasts. We'll talk to you soon. Okay. And I do mention this. Mm-hmm. I love the Fifth Column guys, and I will be on with them on election night at some point on their live stream, so. Oh. Oh, yay. Wait, in person? Oh, good. Yep. Oh, good. Oh, we'll see you there then. Oh, fun. Good.

1:09:33 Oh, yay. Yeah. And everybody else, don't go away, uh, we're gonna talk about some other things. [upbeat music] Can I say something mean? Okay, Al, I really need to talk to you about this Elizabeth Holmes movie. Yes. Because I went to see it, and I am so messed up in my brain since I saw that movie. Wait. I, I, we should talk about it. If you haven't watched this movie, you can see everything. Uh, first of all, stop listening. Right?

1:10:00 Right. Well, keep listening 'cause we want the downloads to go all the way to the end. [laughs] But like don't... You know, put it on mute or something. Don't listen, yeah. 'Cause we're g- we're gonna, we're gonna do some spoilers probably here. Yeah. You should definitely- Um, three- Everyone should go see it. Everyone should go see it Everyone should go see it in the theater- Yeah...

1:10:14 because you want the other- Yeah... people's reaction to it. Yes, yes. And also I would add, I think you should know, they don't do a very good job of explaining the story. Like, you should know- Right... you should watch a documentary about her before or watch the, the Hulu movie or whatever that was. Right, right. Yeah. I was, I knew nothing. Um, but what did you wanna say that was mean?

1:10:34 Okay, first of all, she is a psycho. Yes, and it- I mean, I, I think she is absolutely psychotic. And every... The thing that bothered me the most about the movie is I felt manipulated every second. Mm. Every, every shot of the film, every musical choice, every word, I was like- By the filmmaker too? Yes, absolutely- Mm-hmm... by, first of, first and foremost by the filmmaker. Like- Mm-hmm...

1:11:01 he was manipulating the audience every step of the way, and I felt it. Like, in my body- Mm... as I was watching it, I like, I'm like, "I don't trust anything. I don't trust any... These are all horrible people." You had the best tweet about it, which I read that tweet before I saw the film, so I didn't really know what you meant. Mm.

1:11:18 And it was only after that I was like, "Oh my God, that was brilliant," where you wrote, "I'm even wondering if I could trust the baby." Like, you wrote something like that. Yeah. Well, I said every single, and that's the mean thing is that- Yeah... every single person in that movie is awful. Yeah. Except maybe the babies, but I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Like, I don't even know.

1:11:35 I don't know anymore. It's so... I mean, she's so weird. I don't believe her. I don't trust her. Her husband is- The weirdest... psychotic. Okay, I mean- Psychotic. Why did we have to see his front? Okay, I, that... I'm sitting there, I'm like, "What?" Like, there's a, there's a scene where you see his entire naked body. Like, why? What was the point of that?

1:11:58 It, it was, I was talking to our friend Jossefs about this for a good like 20 minutes. Yeah. And, um, we won't go into what we talked about there, because that's a m- even more, like, R-rated podcast than this one. Yes. You have had to had, have his, not only his approval to run that, but his enthusiastic approval. Exactly, yes.

1:12:18 I almost ma- I almost think he, like, insisted, and be like, "No, no, you should definitely put my dick in it." He did. He did. He wanted... He said, I read somewhere that he said that he wanted people to understand how they were completely exposing themselves for this film. So like if you see his privates, then you're like, "Oh, he's really all in."

1:12:38 This guy is... They're, they're psychos. Like, I, I was- It, it, it, it's crazy, but I, I think most people would agree that they're psychos. And by the way, I wanna say I hated him from the very beginning when he said things like, "Let's put a pin in this," or- I know, I know... "Let's circle back," or something. I know.

1:12:55 And I'm like, "Ugh, I don't like this guy." I know. But also, I didn't really like Nathan Fielder, who is like- No, horrible. He, he's the filmmaker. He's very, very, very talented, clearly. He made this movie, which we're recommending, so we are saying, like, "Go watch it. It is a magnificent, like, experience." But he makes me so uncomfortable. Ugh.

1:13:14 And I, as an audience member, like, I don't know, he, he would not seem like a fun hang. No. Like, I do not wanna hang out with Nathan Fielder. No. I mean- And-... there were moments in the movie- And by the way, they're presenting him as, like, the new face of, like, hotness. Are you serious? Mm-hmm. No. No. 'Cause he's got this, like, nebeshy Jewish thing going for him. Yeah.

1:13:31 Which some non-Jewish women seem to like. He, he's the biggest manipulator in the whole, I think, in the whole thing because he was, he was trying to tell us a certain story that he wanted to tell, and I don't know if he was trying to be sympathetic to her. I don't know. Some people are, like, going really deep and saying, like, he was trying to put a- a- a camera on us, the audience. Mm-hmm. Right? Like how, how easily manipulated we are, which is true. Yeah. It's true.

1:13:56 And he was called out by what's her name? I forgot her name. Who I also thought was horrible. Amanda Se- The actress... Amanda Seyfried. Amanda Seyfried. Seyfried. I mean, that was also, like, we're watching an actress reading a part playing a part in another part. Like, a scripted part. Which, which was really fun. I really enjoyed that. It was crazy.

1:14:15 Somebody said that she should win, uh, the first ever Oscar for Best Supporting Actress in a Documentary. Yeah. Um. Yes, exactly. But that, that, that part was really, really fun, and again, I really hope you're not... people who are listening to this have already watched the film- I know... 'cause we're kinda ruining it. But, but she wasn't, 'cause at first she came in and she was, like, cool, and she was, like, telling it, you know.

1:14:34 Yeah, yeah. And then, uh, you know, she got, like, very, very defensive when she was called out about how... You know, we were just talking, Mary Kathryn, about, like, the, [laughs] the D- the, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea parting and the- Yeah... the fictional kind of, you know, representation of that. Yeah.

1:14:51 She also made a fictional representation of a woman, and it... I'm not saying that's not ethical, because that's what culture is. Yeah, that's what it is, right. But you have to understand that it affects people who are portrayed in a Hollywood way, and then they go to prison, and people, the only thing they know about them is that movie that they've watched. Right. Right.

1:15:10 Yeah, it made me really think about, like, how we consume information and media. We think we know the person. We think we understand them, and yet we're only understanding them through the lens of the story that the Hollywood people wanna give us, and I think it really complicates how we understand, and- Sounds like you're talking about the Jews, by the way...

1:15:29 no, and the re- yeah, the, by the way, the reason that I'm, I'm, like, obsessing over this issue is because, and not just for the Jews, but how do we understand history? Mm. Right? How do we understand anything that's happened in the l- in the entire world? And part of why we're coming up against these young people who are protesting for Hamas, right, versus, like, understanding what's going on, is because they're consuming facts, and I'm using air quotes around facts, that are not facts, right?

1:15:55 Like, a lot of it is- Through culture, yeah... exactly, through culture. And culture is designed- Through fiction... to make you feel, which is a lot stronger. Exactly. It's a lot stronger. Exactly. We've all fallen for that. We've all, like, felt things that weren't true. But I, I remember once there, there was a, a movie or a series about the Central Park Five. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, of course.

1:16:12 And, um, a, a, a friend of mine had watched it, and she said she loved it, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, "You know, there are a lot of things there that are inaccurate." And, and she was, like, floored by this concept. Yeah. That, that... But she's like, "But it's in the movie." I'm like- Yeah... "Yeah, that's, uh, you know, it's, it's a movie." It's a movie. They, they take liberties. I know. I know. I know.

1:16:29 Uh, otherwise it'd be really boring. It would be a documentary. Yeah. Which can also take liberties. No. I just, I think, like, this movie made me realize how careful we have to be about how we consume information, and we can't let ourselves be manipulated. If there's gonna be any skill that we're gonna have to teach our kids and ourselves is how to live in a world where everywhere you look you're being manipulated. And, and I'm not saying that as a conspiracy theorist.

1:16:54 And, and on- It's just the reality... and on top of that, after you teach them this lesson, which is a very important lesson, you also need to teach them how to trust people. Right. I know. Which is equally as important. Exactly. Right. Exactly. So- Exactly. But- Your kids are screwed, is what we're telling you... I know. How do you feel about Elizabeth Holmes in general after that? Um, I think she looked great. I'll give her that much.

1:17:13 [laughs] Um, I, I think she believes her own bullshit. Yeah. Um, I don't think she's been- I don't know... she was manipulated by the, the guy. Um, I think they found each other 'cause they're perfect for each other. Yeah. And I think she'll do it again, just like the Fyre Fest guy. As soon... I, I- Yeah... knew when the Fyre Fest guy went to prison, I'm like, watch him go, get out of prison and do it again, because- Yeah...

1:17:31 he believes his- Yeah... madness. Yeah. And people think that people act one way, and f- and inside they're different. Like, people are like, "Oh, Elizabeth Holmes knows it's all bullshit. She's putting on an act." No, she is... Part of- Yeah... the act is, like, part of her insides too. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, which doesn't make her any better, by the way. Right. Exactly. But anyway, anyway, everybody sucks in this movie, and- Horrible...

1:17:53 absolutely don't miss it. Yeah. Exactly. Well said. All right. Um, we'll see you on Thursday at the group chat if you're an Arc Plus subscriber. Um, if not, go sign up, arcmedia.org. It's only $8 a month, and you get four extra episodes a month, where we answer all your questions. And it's really fun. Sign up. And we're answering really great questions, and people should send in- Yeah...

1:18:15 people should send in questions 'cause it's really... We're, we're having a great time with it. We read every single one of them. Yes, we do. And I even answered some yesterday by email. Yeah. So. Oh, good. All right. Bye. Bye, everyone. [laughs] [upbeat music] Here's a chosen people problem we can actually solve.

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