Re-Release: ACOTAR: Rhys’s Family Deep Dive | Mysterious Mom, Missing Sister, Starry Origins

0:13 I've cried about Carol. Our fall is about to explode. I. Mean what the fuck is Carol? Wait, what are you talking about? Carol is the name of the bright spot on the moon. Oh. Carol. Carol named the commander's late wife. He's very sad. I literally thought very happy, happy tears. I thought we knew someone named Carol. I was like, what?

0:39 I meant Carol. What happened to Carol? Why am I crying about Carol? All right, listeners, we are fucking back. Did you miss? We don't remember what we're doing, but we're. Back we don't know how to podcast anymore it's been. Three weeks, 4 weeks it's only been yeah, I think it's only been like 4 weeks. Wow.

0:57 Weekends, 4 weeks it has been. Yeah, three weekends since we last recorded. We missed you guys. So we're back. Yeah, lots of things has have happened since then. We've gone to the moon. We've gone to the. Moon and back to the moon and come back. Men have showed us that they know how to be men and be astronauts and be poets and be the best ever so. Yeah, that's good.

1:23 I did watch like several YouTube videos of the splashdown and I had like a little out of body moment where I was like I am staring at a speck on a very low quality screen, like intently, no distractions, squint. I mean, I Oh my God, I'm so. I'm so happy they're OK, for starters. Can you imagine? Oh my God.

1:46 I honestly was so afraid when they were posting everything of getting emotionally invested. I mean, I obviously was emotionally invested, but I was just like, I don't know you. We, we grew up with like so many failed missions and like Apollo 13 and like things that just. And I think it's so interesting doing this now in the time of social media, right?

2:09 Because we were basically live streaming, like, yeah, this trip around the moon, which is, like, never happened before. I think it was so cool. It was just a such an awesome freaking moment for humanity. So well done, humans. We're so happy. Everyone's safe and home. And now we know about Carol. And we cried a lot.

2:28 I cried a lot. Cried a lot, cried a lot, Happy. Tears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God, The dog. So good. So, so, so good. And if you don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about when the astronaut Christina, I don't know how you say her last name. As for usual, I'm not good with pronunciations, but I think it's Co Christina Coke came home and her dog was just so happy to see her. It was so wonderful.

2:55 But yeah, anyway, hi everyone. I'm Abby. I'm Ronnie. And we're doing this again. This is Dragons in the Details, the podcast that helps you better understand your favorite fantasy books over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. As you guys probably know from the title of this episode, this is going to be a re release episode.

3:16 So what we are doing, we are building up to our Crescent City season. We're working on finishing those books. We're very excited, but we didn't want to leave you guys hanging. So what we are doing is we are going back through the episodes that we think we're most relevant from our a Guitar season and we're re releasing them.

3:31 So you're going to have a couple of those over the next couple weeks. And then we're going to bring you guys new content. We're really excited about the new content. We've got our heads down and we're reading Crescent City as fast as we like Ken while still trying to catch everything, which is insane.

3:43 There's so much to catch. So as part of these reruns, we also re listen to these episodes. So we're just going to provide a little bit of commentary on what we think we got right, what we think we got wrong. We're going to chat about each episode, what we think holds up and what we think does not hold up.

3:57 Because we're only humans, we make mistakes. These little intro sections are going to have mass verse spoilers. Full mass verse spoilers. Sorry, but if you're an accuser only listener, you're probably not listening to our Crested City season. Anyway, this is going to be our little plug. As always, please read the Mass first.

4:13 As a reminder for our Crescent City season, the way we will be structuring it, the first part of our episodes will be Crescent City and Acatar spoilers, and then the last part will be full masters. I think this is going to be a much more. I think the first sections of these episodes will be much meteor than they were in Acatar is my guess. And then we will have Throne of Glass kind of sprinkled in at the end.

4:34 But for this, we didn't record that this way. So these just kind of have to be full mask for spoilers. So if you haven't read Throne of Glass and you really don't want to be spoiled, we'll see you in a couple weeks when we're releasing our new episodes. But you know, love you, love you, bye and all that. All right, so the first episode that we are releasing in this little release schedule is our Reese's Family deep dive Woo, which of course is the known Starboard line we have in Perth. And I would also say this episode is when we really started cooking in our Avatar season. This is when we really started like from a mass first perspective.

5:06 This is when the gear started filing. I mean, I still love our Lucian and Tamlin episodes. I think those were great episodes. But I think from a mass first perspective, this is where we were like, oh, Sarah, we see what you're fucking doing here. Good job. All right. So anything to add there, Ron? Yeah.

5:20 I mean, I think just, you know, these are revisits, but we're choosing revisits for a very specific reason we think, but the the few that we are revisiting are important. So you know, I would, you know, I would give them a re listen and we are going to do a little re recheck in as well. So it's not going to be completely revisited content.

5:38 So yeah, cool. All right, we're going to do a little reactions to our episode. I guess I'll ask you first, Ronnie, what do you think has held up? What do you think doesn't? OK. So what I think didn't hold up, maybe we can start there. I mentioned at one point in this episode that I thought that Reece could be descended from Celine through his mother.

6:00 I don't still think that, but I do still think that the reason I thought that, which is related to a ring, the red looks that has the star of star of Lenathian on it is still linked to Midgard and Thea. So I still believe in that. But I think it's kind of hard to deny that, you know, Lord of Night, that Celine marries is not like related to Lords of Night. I think that's kind of a hard sell. So I was listening back to that.

6:27 I was like, I don't know, reactions to that. Do you agree? Disagree. I agree, I think Reese is probably star born through his father's line. Father's line. Yeah, I don't think that the hysteria and the Valgar are the same anymore, no. I don't either. We talked about that. Yeah, Yeah, we do. That's the thing. We do actually talk about it in this episode, that it's probably not the same thing.

6:47 Yeah, I don't think. They're the same. Well, we talked about, no, we talked about in this episode that they are the same thing, that they are in the same way. Then we walk it back, then we walk it back and later, which by the way, we're also gonna revisit. So yeah, yeah, I don't think they're the same.

7:01 So I don't think either of those hold up. Those are my big ones for like, not really. I do still think that being starborn is related to having a steri genetics essence. So I think that holds up. I think that's like what a lot of our theories are hinged on. You agree? Yeah, I'm. We have a big theory this episode, guys.

7:23 If you haven't listened to it, I won't spoil it, but it is basically how the star born Faye and the Esteri relate to each other. We're obviously very deep in our crested city rereads. There is so much evidence for this, and you actually called out, which I think might be one of the biggest points for it, that both Bryce and the Esteri need to be charged up and can absorb first light.

7:45 You called that out in this episode, which I think is like kind of like an undeniable link between these. I threw out two possibilities for how this could be the case. I'm not sure on either of them at this point. I still like the genetic one. I still think it's probably the genetic one, but I don't think I have any more evidence now that I did when we recorded this episode.

8:05 That is genetic other than what I've put in this episode. But and we're going to record a star born episode. So don't worry, guys, if you're not clear what we're talking about. We there's a lot more evidence that I've picked up as we're going back through this reread about that connection. I think it has to be, I think it, there has to be something there we haven't talked about, but I actually am starting to believe more and more your theory in this episode about how Reese and Rune are related.

8:29 The more I read Crescent City, the more I am convinced that there has to be something going on there because Rune's connection to Night Court is so much stronger than Bryce's. Like it is, it is so strong. It cannot be. Oh, 15,000 years ago they shared an ancestor. So I get I'm not going to get into exactly what that theory is because I want you to guys listen to the episode and enjoy it. I think it's a great theory, but I am more and more convinced the more I'm breeding Crescent City that Rune has much stronger ties to Night Court then Bryce does and that there is a reason for that.

9:05 Totally agree. Yeah, that's pretty much all I had. We talked a little bit about Reese's connection to the valve. I feel the same way I did kind of for all of our Acatar season that there is. I don't really have more to add on it, I guess, is what I'm saying. Like, yeah, Reese definitely seems like he's connected to the valve, but we don't have like that smoking gun necessarily the way that we do with the Asteri.

9:29 So I'll just kind of leave it at that, yeah. Yeah, I think, and again, I won't spoil the episode. So if you don't remember everything that we talked about, then great, you're going to maybe like this one. But I I stand by most everything that I said about the Valk, I think, I still think that it is aged well.

9:48 I agree. I would agree. I think your theory about the Valk holds up and I think it makes much more sense based if we're talking about Reese's lineage from that perspective, then from just a pure Valk perspective. And sorry for being cryptic, so you're gonna know what we're talking about real soon, yeah?

10:04 Hopefully it's teasing you to listen back to this episode. Cool. All right, and with that, here's the episode. Hope you all enjoy. Enjoy. Hello. I'm Ronnie, I'm Abby, and this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes.

10:38 How are you, Ron? How are you? I'm fine. How are you? It's a pretty gloomy day here. So it's a good day for fun. It's been raining all morning. Yeah, but like, it's good because for our listeners, I have recently moved, I'll say moved to the beach. I live here now at least for the foreseeable future. I still live where I used to live, but we're kind of like splitting our time between two places. So I've gone to the beach every day this week, which has been awesome.

11:03 But today it's just been pouring rain and I'm like, great fucking day to podcast. Great. Wonderful for me. It does make me feel better about the fact that we spend our entire day on sunset basically if the weather is bad. I know Derek was like. How long are you going to be podcasting for today? And I was like, this could be a six hour day.

11:22 A lot to talk about in. This. Yeah, I'm targeting 5. I'm awesome. That would make me feel good, yeah. That's a little teaser that I am super excited about this episode and about the theories we're going to cover. I don't know how you feel about it, but I am. I feel good but I'm like afraid about how it all comes together because it feels like both of these episodes are just like webs for me that actually stem from later questions in the episode so I don't know how it's going to go.

11:52 I feel the need that I have to tell you this right now. One theory I came up with in this episode. I think you might have gotten to the same place. I figured out when you were on a plane to Italy. And I literally started jumping up and down on the bed, like Derek was sitting next to me. And I went Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God. And he's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? And then I explained it to him and he was like, I don't really care.

12:13 I don't really know what you're talking about and I don't really care. God damn it, I need Ronnie. Which is interesting because I had a theory. We don't know if it's the same one for our listeners. We don't. We try not to talk about the theories we come up with before we record because then our reactions are less genuine. And I came up with one on the way back from Italy and was like, that'd be hilarious.

12:37 I was so down a rabbit hole that I wasn't even sure whether I was still making sense. So I was just like, I need to sleep on this. And then I came back to it this weekend. I'm like. Yeah, I will. I'm the same way. And I will tease our listeners too. I will say I know a lot of episodes we're like, hey, we don't have answers here, we just have more questions.

12:52 I feel very strongly for this episode that at least I, and maybe you, if you're at the same point, have uncovered an answer here. Like I think we have an answer here and I'm really fucking excited about it. And I think it is a huge web and it I guys, I literally texted Ronnie. I was like, we have to move this episode up. We had a schedule and I was like, we have to record this episode because it changes the way I see, like, everything. Interesting, cuz I don't know that it changed that much about our next episode for me.

13:20 I don't know. Maybe not our next episode, but we'll get into it. We just have to talk about this now because I think it changes a lot. So anyway, that's a teaser. I hope you guys are excited for this episode. Yeah. I mean, I also maybe want to bring up that like most of what I have to say that's going to foundationally change everything is not in the Akator only section.

13:40 Yeah, sorry guys, it's a mass versus heavy episode like I'm. Sorry. So we're going to do so. We're going to have our Akator only section, but this is very much an episode where it is enriching for you to be able to proceed to the full mass verse section of the episode I'm. Just going to shamelessly plug mass verse at this point, like if you're listening to this these episodes, but you haven't read the full mass verse, like you're clearly a person who really loves this story. Like we go pretty deep on it and you want to know more about it, Like just read the mass verse.

14:11 It's so good. And I understand maybe you haven't gotten there yet. People are busy. I totally get it. But like especially after this episode, like it's I get it. I know it's a lot to read. It's a lot to read. People are busy, I get it. But like it's just, I think it's going to, I think it's going to enjoy and enhance your enjoyment of Acatar so much.

14:27 That's all I'll say. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, we're still going to do a full actor only section. And it's like it's good. It's interesting as first heavy on the mass first this episode, we actually got a commenter on YouTube who called out like, I guess some people just like spoilers. Like some people just think that spoilers give them something to look forward to.

14:49 And so if you just want to stay, if you just want to hear how crazy it can get, that's cool, but you will be spoiled. So absolutely up to you. Up to you. I don't, I don't know if I've talked about this on this podcast. I'm that type of person who doesn't watch a horror movie but will read the Wikipedia page for the horror movie because like, I want to know the story, but I'm too scared to actually go see the movie.

15:10 I know there's a lot of us out there. I'm self identifying as one of those people. So like, I get it. Sometimes you just want to know the mystery. You just want to like understand what's happening without actually committing the full time to it. So if that's you, that's totally fine. We welcome you.

15:24 Yeah, yeah, I and I am a no spoilers girly, but I will say when I'm watching just like TV, like episodes of shows, I fully read the synopsis. I'm like because I I don't know, this is like a very much a problem associated with my generation. But like, I don't ever watch ATV show without doing anything else so I also just need to know what's going on. OK, I strongly disagree with that point, but that's fine. That's my reality.

15:55 All right, well, in case you haven't caught on already, this season is focused on A Court of Thorns and Roses, the series, not the book by Sarah J Maas. Disclaimer These episodes contain spoilers for the entire A Court of Thorns and Roses series. We've gotten a couple questions about it. We know that A Court of Thorns and Roses is also the title of the first book.

16:12 This podcast has spoilers for all 5 published books, A Court of Thorns and Roses, Mist and Fury, Wings and Ruin, Frost and Starlight and Silver Flames. All spoilers we will have mass for spoilers later in the episode, but we segment those off so that if you've only read this series, you can stick around and be safe and not be spoiled.

16:32 And then you can drop off when we announce mass for spoilers. Disclaimer as well that this podcast is rated R. Do not listen to it with your children because of who we are as people, we curse. If you want to know the nature of of what's up in this rated R podcast, we curse and the books are spicy and that's all you need to know.

16:46 Each week we dive into a specific topic in depth. This week we are digging into the High Lords and ladies of the Night Court. We are focused on Reese's family reminder, right? Like you guys know if you've been listening to us for a while, especially if you listen to our Empyrean coverage, we typically in the past have done full character deep dives. We realized very quickly in thinking about Agatar and talking about Agatar, that if we were to just do recent favor, it would be too big, at least from my perspective. It would be like literally a three parter. We're just naming the episodes differently. Yeah.

17:22 This is all about Reese's family, ancestry, cousins, relatives, whatever. We come with receipts always. So we have quotes to back up any theories so that you can follow along if you're skeptical. If not, that's cool too. We know that you guys sometimes ask in the comments, where did you find this? Where is this from?

17:37 We're happy to answer. We don't bring anything onto this podcast unless we do have a quote or at least something to go off of behind it. Abby announcements. Do we have any announcements? I don't think we have any like specific announcements. You've already gone over the structure of the episode. So I don't think we need to talk about that. I will say, I feel like this episode alone, I think we already talked about this, but like this episode alone could end up being like easily 2 1/2 hours after we edit it. So just like, strap in guys.

18:06 I hope you're along for the ride. It'll be great though, I promise. The only other thing you have been hearing new deep dive music this season. We play a little ditty before our deep dive sections. That music is brought to you by Schwudly SCHWOODLEY. You should check them out on Spotify. They're really great.

18:22 All right, to go to our fun question. Well, first, do you have any corrections, omissions or social media shows for the class? No, OK, I have one. I don't know whether you just maybe didn't segment it out as a shout out or you just forgot, but you asked in one of our recently published episodes about a fancy book that came up in a ROM com. And I wanted to give Taylor credit for commenting. Do you want to share?

18:47 Share with the group. I was going to bring this up in our reading corner. That's why I don't have it now. But yeah, so I in our, I think it was our last 2 episodes ago, 2 episodes ago, I think it was the favorite trial suit dies. I said if anyone knows the name of this book that I'm thinking of, and I give a very vague description of the book.

19:03 I said it was described as a cozy romanticy where a girl owned a bookshop and then Faye came in and like, I don't know. I that was truly the entire description I gave of the book. I said, if anyone knows the name of this book and can tell it to me, I will read it instead of just Googling the name because I want there to be an element of serendipity here.

19:20 And Taylor, as you mentioned, she not only commented on the episode, she actually DM D us directly on Instagram and all she sent me this was so funny. All she sent me was the name of the book. She just said this this spell shop in all calf with no context. And I just I just responded to her. I'm like, Oh my God. Straight to the point like.

19:37 I was, she was like, I was so hoping that you were going to understand what I was talking. I was like, Yep, I got it. I got it immediate. She did it like the day the episode came out too. It was amazing. So I have not yet started the spell shop because I am deep in Throat of Glass world right now, but that has been added to my to be read list. So thank you, Taylor.

19:55 Thank you, Taylor. All right, OK. Any question, Do we want to do anything else on social media guys, just. Just be nice. Just be. Nice. Just one like generic shout out 80 to 90% of the comments that we receive are so kind and so awesome. Even when you disagree with us, we love when people disagree with us. It's one of our favorite things about making this podcast. One thing that we've noticed with this fandom specifically, and I'm curious whether our quieter listeners feel the same way.

20:23 There are a few very opinionated folks who are not so nice. And So what we ask of those folks, if you are listening to our podcast and if you choose to be here and you choose to participate, just be nice and respectful in the comments. And if you don't think that you can do that, then you don't have to be here and that's OK. Or, and we love you any.

20:42 Comment but like I really don't think it's any of our listeners doing it. Like I think it's mostly just people on on social media and we do, we knew go again that this was an opinionated fandom. Like you don't have to attack us. You don't have to attack us as people just because you don't agree with the things that we're saying about fake made-up people.

21:00 You know, it's just it's for fun. It's all for fun. So. It's books, guys. It's books about fake worlds and people, so. Yeah, just be kind. Just be kind. That's it. All right. OK, Ready for our fun question? All right, I think guys, you normally Ronnie and I prepare a fun question together, but I decided that for this one I just wanted to have a fun question and I would just have her live reaction to it. Do you think that Azrael, Cassian or more has ever hooked up with Reese's sisters?

21:31 Is the question, do I think one of them has or which one do I think has? You can. Interpret it however you would like. I think yes, maybe. And I think if anyone as real, I agree. That's what that's what's my answer was. Personally, because we haven't. So we got Cassian's like he was alluding to a bit of romantic history for for a hot minute. And we got the answer to that, which was the Valkyrie warrior from like way back when.

22:03 As real we know has had like we know from Reese has had lovers, even though he like, we've never witnessed it. Yeah, I agree. The only thing that gives me pause is like how big of a deal it was when Cassian hooked up with more and how Reese like absolutely lost his mind. Well that's a follow up question.

22:18 Like would Reese know Because Azrael is very good at keeping. Secrets. Azrael is very good at keeping secrets, yeah, but it's really hard to hide when you hook up with somebody in these books. Like it's literally a smell. Well, only when you're. Yeah, I guess. I guess. Not only when you're mated.

22:33 Yeah, you just, like, smell like sex. Yeah, who knows? Reese was away for a long time. There's a lot happening in those Illyrians way, and we know very, very little about his sister. So we do. And that is certainly a conclusion I've come to at the end of this episode is that we really know very, very little about his sister and all these people out here making these crazy theories about his sister. I'm like power to you, because I don't think there's that much to work with, but we'll get there.

23:01 Cool, cool. All right, shall we deep dive? OK, shall we deep dive? Deep dive music. You don't need to say it every time. No promise, I edited it makes me. Laugh. So, OK, all right, we're ready to deep dive. Let's go. OK, Abby, would you like to give us an overview of Reese's known family tree? Yes, I would and I will keep this brief because I know this isn't the most interesting part of the episode. So we know Reese's father was the High Lord of the Night Core and Reese's mother was an Illyrian. So Reese's mother and Reese's father met when he traveled to an Illyrian war camp.

23:43 She we know that she loves to fly. She was an Illyrian woman who loved to fly, but the Illyrians are horrible backwards people, and they don't allow women to fly once they start menstruating. So she took a bunch of herbs and did a bunch of things to prevent herself from menstruating. But when she was 18, it happened anyway, and the guards captured her.

24:02 And she was like, I don't know, tied to a stake in the middle of the war camp, about to be clipped. And then Reese's father winnowed in. They locked eyes. As far as I can tell, they locked eyes from across the room. And he felt the mating bond fall into place. He missed it, The guards, which tells you the type of man that we're dealing with here, He literally misted them and turned them into nothing. And then he took her back home to the Night Court to marry her. She was 18.

24:27 He was 900 years old. So that's a little, it's a little icky, but it's fine. I guess that's what we get with recent fare. Others does like that is the most interesting point to Faye's lifespan. I think that's the longest one I think we've seen that isn't sort of not Faye like. 900 is the oldest Faye that we we know of.

24:47 Yeah. And that is that is definitely fully, 100% Faye. Fully Faye. Yeah, Yeah. Or is he? No, I agree. Don't know if you ever think about this, but like I think about this a lot. Like the Faye children growing up and looking the same as their Fae parents. I think this even comes up at one point in the Mass 1st that it's like kind of icky that at a certain point you just start to look the same because like everyone looks like they're 25, right?

25:10 Like, yeah, Anyway, yeah, I think that would be really weird Anyway. All right, so Reese's mother was a lowborn seamstress at one of the Illyrian mountain war camps. So she is lowborn. Oh, nobility in her blood. She is just kind of a regular lady who loves to fly, love to make dresses. And she and, again, Reese's parents were mates. I have here the quote of Reese misting the guards were that they locked eyes through the blood rain, which is how every great romance starts, as you know. Of course, Reese's father was cold, calculating and vicious. His mother was soft and fiery and beloved by everyone. They were wrong for each other.

25:45 That is an exact quote. They were wrong for each other. Reese's mother insisted that he learn kind of his heritage and learn how to train like an Illyrian. Which of course is how we get Reese traveling to the Illyrian War camp and meeting up with Cassian and Azrael. But she also insisted he get a proper education, which is always very interesting because Reese knows ancient Faye knows a lot of the history that it seems like no one else really knows except Ameren and I'm going to say Eris, which is also interesting. She took in Cassian and Azrael.

26:16 They all lived in the mountain Hut together. Cassian of course was sleeping on the ground. Azrael also needed a place to say. They all started living together and training together and became a pretty happy little family. During the war, Reese's father got concerned about how powerful Reese seem to be becoming with Azrael and Cassian by his side. So when the war came, he separated their units. So Reese talks about how every day he was worried he would never see Cassian and Azrael again, which is of course, very devastating.

26:43 And then we've already talked about in this podcast, but there is the story of how Reese's mother, sister and father were all killed. I don't think we need to dive into that again because we've already covered that at great length, and we will cover that again in this episode. Anything I missed wrong? Do we want to talk at all about Moore, Kier and Kier's wife? I honestly didn't do anything for them, but yeah. If you want to, yeah.

27:05 I mean, the main point here is that Moore is a cousin of Reese, and Moore's father is Kier. Moore's mother is Moore's mother. I don't think we have a name for her, unless I'm sorely mistaken. And they are distant cousins. And it said that Moore's family at one point was in in power. That's really all we know there. I think it's kind of like an intentionally open mystery. Yeah.

27:30 Very interesting, very interesting because it's certainly, her family certainly didn't start in power, right? And we'll get into that in this episode. But like there has to have been a rebellion and then a reclaiming basically at some point, I think. I think that's what has to have happened. Yeah, We have this kind of like middle set of generations where we really don't know what happened.

27:49 And seems like at some point during that her family took power. OK. Ronnie Could Reese's mother and sister still be alive? All right, so we've already discussed the events of this sort of in our Tamlin episode, so we know that this is a bit of a rehash, but I think it's important for the sake of this episode. They are Reese's immediate family, so we should talk about what we think might have happened to them. So as a refresher, Reese's account of events is that he was supposed to meet his mother and sister halfway to the Illyrian War camp while they journeyed to visit him, but he was training a new unit and decided to stay stay. So Tamlin and his father and his brothers went to ambush them, and Reese believes that he

28:35 himself was the target. We only have Reese's kind of account and confirmation of this, but Reese believes that he was the target of Tamlin and his father and his brothers. But when he wasn't there, Reese wasn't there. They decided to just slaughter Reese's mother and sister. Anyways, Reese says that they put their heads in boxes and sent them down the river to the nearest war camp where they were found, and that Tamlin's father kept their wings as trophies.

28:58 We know that this then triggered the events that led to Reese and his father killing Tamlin entire family. But Reese saved Tamlin life. That's kind of beside the point, but that was why it came up in the Tamlin episode. So Tamlin was there, and we know that Tamlin can shift other people into other things. And we're called to suspect something because Tamlin expresses guilt over the events.

29:18 And he says he burns the wings that his father kept. We never actually lay eyes on the heads or the wings as witnesses to this book. So are they actually dead? That's the question we're asking ourselves here. That's a reminder. So Tamlin shifting someone or something else into Reese's mother and sister for the purpose of faking their deaths and helping them escape obviously opens a world of possibilities.

29:43 That means that they could be anything or anyone. They could be animals in the forest for all we know. But I wanna offer one specific possibility that could mean that we see them again. It's a bit of a reach based on what's what's available to us, but just want to talk about it. There is a concept of world traveling in this book.

30:00 We see it in a few places, most obviously with Amaran the bone Carver and his siblings being blatantly from another world that is not this one. We are told that, but we're hit on the nose with more possibilities than just their world, which is seemingly terrible in and I don't know that's the same world. By the way, in a Court of Silver flames, when Gwynn shares that Merrill is particularly obsessed with searching other worlds, other realms, she says that some philosophers believe there are 11 worlds, some believe there are 26. That's a lot of different realms and worlds to keep track of that one could potentially go to since we know that world travelling is a thing.

30:37 So could, I mean, we don't know how kind of these other beings, the Bone Carver, Striga Coche got here. We don't know how Omran, aside from kind of her business with the cauldron, really intended to leave. But like, Tamlin and his family had connections with Highburn, who clearly have been after this cauldron, after these magical artifacts for some time. Like could Tamlin have saved them and found a way to get them to another realm?

31:03 Like could we see them again? I think that door has been left open, but I don't think at least I didn't have any definitive specific theories about people in Prythian that could be Reese's mother and sister as of right now, but I'm curious for your thoughts. So I think there's just to break this down a little more they were talking about and I hadn't the second part of this hadn't actually occurred to me, but we're talking about two really 4 shiftings happening here, right?

31:25 So let's first the heads who shifted something else. I don't even think it necessarily has to be a perfect person, but maybe it does. But he shifted something or someone to look like Reese's mothers and sisters heads to put in the box to send down the river, right? And he did all this without his father, seemingly his father and brothers. Like.

31:48 Knowing that this happened, I think we should also. Though point out like, yes, it would make much like way more sense of Tamlin did this, but we assume, and it's an assumption that Tamlin shifting power came from one of his parents. And so if it was like if his father could do the same thing that maybe his father's on the table, I don't know.

32:05 I don't think that's very likely, but I think it's worth they're both there. That's true, but Tamlin seems to really hate his father. Yeah. Like he like nothing. Yeah. Like he says when when his family was slaughtered that the only person he mourned was his mother. So yeah, maybe that happened. And then the 2nd shift, and this part hadn't even occurred to me, is that he shifts Reese mother and sister into looking like other people and that they could just be anywhere, right? Maybe.

32:31 We're just shifted elements of them. Like, they were both Illyrian, right? Well, Reese's sister was half Illyrian, so like, could he have shifted just them into themselves without the wings? Without the wings could be more easily disguised, yeah. Yeah, but then why wouldn't they go back to Reese, I guess is my question. Yeah, I don't know, because Tamlin's father would just hunt them down and kill them again.

32:52 Yeah, but then Tamlin's father died. Yeah, true. I think this is a really interesting theory. Like I think the door has totally been left open for it to be a possibility. And I've heard the theory that like the mercenary is Reese's sister or something. Like I just don't think there's enough there because again, we know so little about her.

33:09 Like we really like Reese's sister is not given a lot of page time, but she's spoken of with much like affection and warmth and respect when she is spoken about. I also think, and you talked about this a little bit, but like Tamlin seems really, really guilt ridden over this. Like we I have some quotes. I think it's in frost and Starlight, where Tamlin asked Reese if he can ever forgive him. So Tamlin says, do you forgive me for your mother and sister? Reese says, I don't recall ever hearing an apology, as if an apology would ever make it right, as if an apology would ever come to cover the losses still ate at me the hole that remained where their bright, lovely lives have once glowed. And then Tamlin says and I in my

33:48 mind kind of like just for contacts for because I know sometimes I just jump into quotes. This is frost and Starlight. This is Tamlin like at his lowest moment. He literally has like no one works for him anymore. He's in the the villa. It's like totally disheveled, covered in vines, total man dude cave. He's literally just haunted down a deer, but he doesn't have anyone to like break down the deer. So he's just like clawing at it basically. And Reese finds him like this is Tamlin at his lowest in my mind. If there was a moment for him to say, Reese, I didn't kill your mother and sister.

34:18 They're still out there. This would be the moment, right? He doesn't say that. He says I don't think an apology would make a difference anyway for either of you. Right In the other person is favor because he feels he owes favor an apology. So like, yes, I think it's possible, but I just don't. I feel like we would we would know by now. Tamlin would have told Reese.

34:39 Like they're still out there. You should go find them or something like that, unless it's what you're saying and it's this world walking thing. And somehow Tamlin has that power and like, it's such a big secret that he can't tell Reese. Yeah. The other thing that I thought was interesting here we do have in ACOTAR the ferry from the Summer Court, who Tamlin finds at his border, whose wings have been, I don't know which I don't know who, what fairies have wings in the summer court and Blueskin, but that's a different conversation. But he finds this fairy at his border. He brings him all the way home back to his villa right from the spring court border to the spring to the court villa, right, puts him on the table and

35:17 like basically just stays with him while he dies, right? And the whole thing feels like it's about so much more than just this fairy. Like this fairy is like a stranger. So Farrah even says Faber mentions how much grief like Tamlin seems to feel about this. She says if he felt such grief, such guilt over a stranger, then Andres, by the time I opened my mouth, he was already down the steps. I watched him watch every movement he made, the muscles of his body visible through the blood. So tunic watch that invisible weight bearing down on his shoulders.

35:48 I feel like the invisible way is him thinking about what happened to Reese's mother and sister. Like, I just feel like there's so much guilt that Tamlin has that like, I feel like yes, like magically there's a way this could not have happened. But like, story wise, I think it I think it did happen.

36:03 I think that is part of his, like, character arc, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because even if he, I mean, we're told that Reese and we're shown that Reese really doesn't abuse his Damati powers, but you would think that he would make sure and maybe his father would make sure as well that everything that happened had actually happened.

36:24 So it it just feels, yeah, the door is open. I think it's unlikely. Yeah I agree the door is open but it feels like character wise it's probably not what happened at least. With at least not like something that Tamlin knows. Something that Tamlin knows, or I was going to say, without a door to another world being open somehow. Like, yeah, like with Omron and the death gods, yeah. Yep.

36:46 OK, cool. All right, Abby, why would Reese's mother give the Weaver her ring? All right, so. This one has always kind of struck me as very weird. This Even on my first read I was like, this feels like a weird move for Reese's mother to do. Also, you want to talk about not having names for people?

37:03 We don't have names for anyone in Reese's family, which kind of really bothers me. No last name, no first names. Like nothing. Why? We have thoughts on why, but like, it's noteworthy, yeah. All right, so the scenario here, there's two scenarios here I'll talk, I'll talk through the the first scenario.

37:21 So the scenario here, which we find out after Farrah has gone and retrieved the ring from the bone car from from the Weaver is that we find out that Reese's mother gave the ring to the Weaver for safekeeping when Reese kind of reached the age when he would be looking for a mate, a wife, etcetera.

37:38 So the quote is my mother gave me that ring to remind me she was always with me even during the worst years of my training. And when I reached my majority she took it away. It was an heirloom of her family. I've been handed down from female to female over many many years. My sister wasn't yet born so she wouldn't have known to give it to her, but my mother gave it to the Weaver. And then she told me that if I were to marry or mate and the female would either have to be smart or strong enough to get it back and if the female wasn't either of those things that she wouldn't survive the marriage.

38:07 I promised my mother that any potential or mate would have the test. And so it sat there for centuries, right? So Reese's mother basically said, yo, you're not marrying anyone unless she's smart enough to get this ring back from the Weaver, which is fucking crazy, right? Like the Weaver is a deaf God.

38:22 Like what the hell? And like, how did she get it there? Like how does who is Reese's mother that she can just. Do that. So my first thought, I don't have notes on this because I couldn't find this anything to really back this up. And my first thought was, is the Weaver in Reese's family? Like is she and Reese's family? Why?

38:39 And is that why? Because he said it was handed down from female to female for generations. So I'm like OK so is she a female in his family? We can get to that later. But that was my first thought. I don't have a ton to back that up. So why Farrah goes to retrieve the ring? The scenario is the bone Carver tells Reese and Farrah that the only way to nullify the cauldron is to retrieve the book of breathings right? Which is a made item and that only someone who is made can speak the spells and someone its power. But Reese decides that they need to test that theory. So that is what's happening here, right? This is a test run for Farah to find a made item. So the book is also being like

39:18 protected by spells that are like key to Tarkin, who's the high Lord of Summer Court, right? He's their key to Tarkin's blood. So Reese thinks Farah might be able to track the book. Both break the spells like deceive the spells and track the book because she has a kernel of Tarkin's power. But they want to test that theory.

39:36 So this is the way that Reese is testing that theory, right? He's like, he's like, OK, this is something of mine that has a kernel of my power. So this is something of mine. She is a Colonel of my power. Let's go to the Weaver's cottage and see if they can see if she can find that. I'm a little like, I don't know. I'm a little skeptical of that theory. I think this is kind of a weird theory because the bone Carver doesn't say anything about Pharaoh being able to track or use the book because it's she has a Colonel of Tarkin's power. He said he would be able to track it because she was made, right.

40:05 So it's not about like that high Lords kernel of power. It's about her being made. And then Reese's like, oh, let's test this theory on this ring, right? Yeah. When when Pharaoh finally finds the ring, she sees it on the shelf. She says a ring of twisted strands of gold and silver flecked with Pearl and. Set with a stone of deepest solid blue sapphire, but different.

40:27 I'd never seen a sapphire like that, even at my father's offices. But this one I could have sworn in the pale light the lines of a six pointed star radiated across the round opaque face. Then she says hello. It seemed to say, have you come to claim me at last? Right. So she says. It seems to say that, but she hears the ring.

40:44 Talk to her. What else do we hear? Talk to her. Made objects, right? Like made objects are constantly talking to say favorite, right. So the book says hello, Liar. Will you read me? Hello sweet thing. Hello lady of night, hello Princess of decay. Fang beast and trembling fawn. Love me, touch me, sing me. Hello lovely wicked liar.

41:01 The harp When? When Nesta finds the harp again, she says it seemingly talks to her. But we know that the book has talked to Pharah. And the harp says play me, let, let me sing again. Join your voice with mine. We shall open doors and pathways. But you were talking about before. We shall move through space and eons together. Our music will free us of earthly rules and borders. So is the ring somehow made somehow to made objects? I don't know that I think the ring itself was like dipped in the cauldron necessarily, but does it somehow have like a kernel of this made power?

41:32 And did Reese's mother know that that Reese would need to find a mate who was made somehow? Right. We know Pharah is made. We know she has this connection to the culture and like, is that what was really going on here is kind of my theory. Little loose. Definitely it's slightly loose theory. It might be nothing, might be something.

41:47 But then it's like there's this piece of it about how Pharah finds the ring, right. So Pharah finds the ring and stays hidden from the Weaver as long as she is thinking about the link between herself and Reese, right? So as long as she's thinking about the maid part of her, she's able to stay hidden. It's only when she starts acknowledging the human side of her that the that the Weaver actually like recognizes that she's in her cottage.

42:09 So it's not like when she takes the ring, it's when she starts to think about her humanity. So the quote is maybe I was as much a monster as the female spinning before me. But if I was a monster, then I supposed Reese was as well. Reese and I were one in the same beyond the power that he'd given me. And that is the moment when she finds the ring, right? It's when she's recognizing this connection, this made connection potentially between her and Reese. That is when she finds the ring.

42:35 And then it's the same thing. It's the same thing with the book. It opens to Farah when she acknowledges the the fae, the made part of herself. It won't open for her when she's pretending to be Tarkin. But then when she acknowledges the made part of herself, that's when the book opens. So the quote for that is unmade and made, made and unmade. That is the cycle.

42:53 Like calls to like. I push my hand harder, so tired. I didn't care about the thoughts tumbling out. The maiden unmade thoughts were from Farrah, the bits and pieces that were a part and yet not a part of me. Heat and water and ice and light and shadow. Curse breaker. It called to me and the box clicked open. So it's like the same idea where we have these two objects, one definitely made, one may be made. And when she acknowledges that part of herself, that's when she can, like, find the object to use the object, wield the object, so to speak.

43:24 Yeah. Yeah, I think the ring definitely can be made without having to go to the length of because the cauldron was lost for a long time, right? Like just because it wasn't dipped in the cauldron doesn't mean it couldn't have been made. Like plenty of made items have been created not through that method, right.

43:39 Specifically, people who have been made right can create made things, right. So I don't think it's like that much of A stretch to say that that ring could be made by somebody else who was made. Yeah. It's forged. Yeah, it's forged. George, we don't, we don't have we haven't had any indication of its powers yet. And we may never.

43:59 Right, We may never. But there is that, like that unearthly sapphire. She'd never seen a sapphire like that. Like, what is that? Where did that come from? And then there's the six pointed star. Right. So, like, what do these things mean? Like, why? Why did Sarah J Maas put those details in? I think they probably are leading somewhere. Unless she's decided to drop the whole thing. Yeah.

44:19 Yeah. And then the only other. Yeah. The only other note I had, which we talked about for is that the Weaver realizes fairer is in the cottage when she acknowledges the human part of her. Also kind of what happens with the Mittingard worm too in her trial, right? So when she cloaks herself, when she covers herself, it's a replay of the Mittingard worm trial, right? So as long as she was kind of cloaking herself in these fae thoughts and like acknowledging the fae part of her, she's safe. As soon as she switches to human, as soon as she starts to think about the human side of her like it's done, the the Weaver, the Weaver smells her, basically. And they're both blind, right?

44:54 They both rely on scent like it's. There's a lot of similarities between these two things. Yeah, that's definitely true. And it's also interesting to think about why both Striga and the Worm would be interested in targeting a human over Fae, because even the worm, like, yes, it was in canals in the ground, but like, I'm sure it could have gotten out of there had it so choosed, and it was being watched by an entire audience of say.

45:22 That's interesting. Yeah. I don't know. We know that Shree goes from another world. Like, could the worm be too? Could they both be? Yeah, interested in humans and somehow allies to the fae? I don't know. Or allies to something else. I don't know. I think we're going to. We did get a question.

45:38 Someone commented on our favorite trial episode. She was like, I thought you would go into the worm. I think we're going to do a creatures episode, a Prythian creatures episode. We'll get into the worm. We'll get into the surreal. I also am not so sure that the surreal is. I don't know that I would classify the surreal as a creature, but I have a.

45:53 Lot of thoughts on the serial. Like a lot of thoughts on the serial and where it might have come from and what it is and why, why it exists. So maybe we do. Maybe that's a different episode. Surreal might need its own episode, to be honest. I'm happy to do it. We'll see a lot of a lot to think about with that one, yeah. Anything else for?

46:15 The I mean, so much of this question, I felt the need to talk about it in our next ones. I agree with you. I mean, I think, I think there could so easily be nothing more than, yeah, Reese's mother just wanting to test whether this mate or bride of Reese's was going to be a true equal. Like I totally acknowledge that's possible.

46:41 But to your point, like, it's, it's very specific and the ring itself is very specific. Like there's no way that she could have known, unless something else is going on, that even that Pharaoh would have like a kernel of Reese's power to quote, recognize this ring with like even if that were the link, right? And we just talked about like the definition of being made. There's a lot to being made that we haven't covered yet, but we have been told that that Pharaoh was made, right? We'll get, we'll say that we're told that Pharaoh is made. But like we're also told that a lot of other things are being made by being dipped into the cauldron and Pharaoh was just brought back to life by the High

47:20 Lords. So like, what is the high? Are the high Lords made? Like, yeah, there's, there's a whole, there's too much to get into We. Well, guys, we will get to that, but we fucking will. I have so many thoughts on that, but yeah, it makes no sense. And this is like, I think, a big question with Farrah.

47:37 Why does Farrah have a connection to the Cauldron at all? Right. She has nothing to do with the Cauldron. Why? Why does she have this connection? Why is she made with a capital M, Right? Yeah, we'll get into it. Not this episode, but we will get into it. All right, so the next question that we asked ourselves is how did Reese's mother seem to know so much about the woman he would marry? So kind of in a similar vein, Reese's mother leaves Reese's bride's wedding ring with the Weaver knowing or actually guaranteeing that she would not really be racist bride unless she was able to overcome that.

48:10 Which again, is like a lot of very specific things about Farrah made it true that she was able to retrieve that ring from the Weaver. And Reese definitely knew that. Reese knew she was his mate at this point, Would not have sent her in there if he did not genuinely believe that she would come out, obviously. My God, people get so mad about Reese, at Reese, about doing that, about sending her into the cottage. He was there.

48:34 I mean, like the one thing we didn't talk about in the last question actually, is that Cassian? Definitely knew the reason guys, that the reason that we know that Cassian knew that Reese's mother left a wedding ring with the Weaver is the quote. And in the aftermath, when Pharaoh says that's what this was also about, I spat.

48:53 Not just the stupid ring. I reached into my pocket, slamming the ring down on the table or my abilities, but if I can master my panic. Cassian swore again, his eyes on that ring. And he later says in that parrot same paragraph. You're a prick. Recent Cassian says quietly. But Cassian, no. But isn't is it more in the room too in that scene?

49:16 Or is it just I know Amran's there but I don't remember. If Amran is there, I don't know whether more was. Yeah, Cassian 100% knows. But Cassian lived with them, so I actually don't think it would be that crazy if Cassian knew and and more didn't because like Cassian was probably there when Reese's mother took it back. Yeah, because it was.

49:35 With him for a time so that he would know that she was with him at training and then she took it. And he could have just known that it was her wedding ring without knowing the like promise between Reese and his mother. Like that's totally fair. But like, yes, he 100% recognize that ring, obviously, obviously, right.

49:54 And that's not that crazy, as you said, the moment, yeah, Farrah put it on the table. Yes. OK, anyways, back to this question. How does Reese's mother seem to know so much about the woman that he would marry? So Reese's mother, we've talked about this a little bit, right? But was was an Illyrian woman with no other documented abilities, but she was a seamstress in the war camps before she met Reese's father.

50:13 And after she was mated, she kept making dresses. Reese revealed that she made every gown that Farrah has ever been given a trousseau for my future bride was the way that that Reese described it. And then she also, of course, left that ring with the Weaver for Pharaoh to retrieve. And he later shares that Reese's mother always intended for it to be with his bride. I don't think we necessarily need to believe that Reese's mother knew exactly who Pharaoh would be like seen Pharaoh literally, but Moore was able to predict the qualities of Reese's like ideal mate.

50:45 So I'll say like, before I talk about crackpot here, like I don't think there needs to be more going on here, but there are some fun questions to mask regardless, as always. First, how did his mother even successfully leave with the Weaver? So like, could there be more going on with Reese's mother? She had to have been clever enough herself to maneuver that or know someone who could.

51:06 And she also, I'm thinking back to what you said, this is kind of off the cuff, but like what was undetectable by the Weaver was being well. Was being Reese. Was being grease yeah, This is why you. Should read the whole mass first, yeah? Yeah. So anyways, like open question, right? I don't think I have a great answer for it in this section, but like, how did he leave the ring with the Weaver? Second, Ferry's gowns always fit. They always fit like it's probably nothing. It's probably just Noella and Sarah Dwin are just like good tailors and just tailor into whatever her size is. But could there have been more Teresa's mother? Like could could she have been a seer? Could she have known a seer?

51:46 Like could there be something here that could have let her know that Reese would have a bride, that that bride would be made something that allowed her to make all this huge wardrobe of gowns that were all perfect and all fit. And then finally I want to go back to the specific line that you already read about. That is it about OK, yeah.

52:05 Go ahead now. The ring. The star sapphire gleamed in the candlelight as if it were one of the Starfall spirits trapped in stone. We have had imagery in this book of souls encased in rings. These Starfall spirits. We don't really have confirmation as to like exactly what they are, who they are, but they're described here as a spirit.

52:24 And I don't think that's unintentional. Like, is this ring the carrier of a soul? We know that Reese's mother gave it to Reese so that Reese would feel like she was always with him in training. Could it be hers? Could it be a seer's soul? Like could it be somebody or something that made it detectable to Reese, detectable to Phara, detectable to Reese's mother? And is it the carrier of a soul that could have given her some power or told her something?

52:51 I don't know. Her being Reese's mother, not her being Reese's mother, her being Reese's mother. Yeah, I mean, yes, we don't know enough, I think. But. And we'll get into the 66 pointed star later in the mass first section. Sorry, guys. What I think is really interesting about Reese's mother potentially being a seer is that she seems to only know about Pharah, right?

53:12 Because if she, if she was killed, if Tamlin did kill her, she didn't know about that, right? She didn't see that coming. And like try to prevent it. Yeah. So like it seems like she's not a seer the way that Elaine was a seer her essentially, but like something about Farrah, she could have known it's it's possible. Again, I would say I'm not like 100% sold that this is like definitely a thing.

53:35 This could totally all be nothing, but it's fun to talk about either way. To talk about. Yep. OK. Anything else on that one? I, I do, but maybe I should save it. I'll put it out here now and we will follow up on it later. We also know that Reese's mother was experimenting with illegal herbs, right, to stop her period. And that was a detail that was thrown in there. And guys, you got to think about when authors write books, every word there's like a, there's like a page limit, right? So like every word that is chosen on the page is there for a reason.

54:03 So experimented with illegal herbs. We know a lot of times illegal herbs give you visions, give you kind of sights into the future. In our world, people claim that in these in this world, people claim that too. So could she have seen another world with these illegal herbs? Could she have seen the future? Could she have had glimpses, visions, etcetera? I think it's possible.

54:23 Again, I don't think we have confirmation. Yeah. Cool. Cool. All right. OK, guys, that's so. A little bit shorter than our usual at guitar section. However, there's just plenty of great mass versus content. So if you have read Throne of Glass and Crescent City in their entireties, please stay. We've got lots more to talk about.

54:46 If you have not and you don't want to be spoiled, you should leave. And we love you. And we suggest maybe you use this time to pick up one of those. It's worthwhile, guys. It really is. I like this is not an advertisement, obviously, but it's just more fun to read across the universes. So we love you.

55:07 Even if you never do that, though, you're welcome to just keep listening to the Akatar Only sections. It's a good time and love you. Bye to our Akatar only readers. Love you. Bye. All right, if you're still here, I'll say one more time you should have read all of Throne of Glass and all of Crescent City and all of Actor. While we're being complete and this is the mass verse section of our episode.

55:30 I actually have butterflies in my stomach about guys. This is where we start again, all right? This is where the season begins. Remember last episode I said we haven't even begun yet. Like this is it? This is it I. Don't. I'll say I don't know whether we're going to the same place based on some of the things you just said.

55:46 So I'm super curious what you have to say. I'm excited. I'm really excited. Maybe we are, I don't know. We'll see. OK, So the first question of our Mass first section is a revisit of a question from the last section, which you guys probably, if you have read the rest of the Mass first, you were probably shouting into your podcast device, whatever it may be at that moment when we were talking about Reese's mother and sister and other realms. Like, what about the other realms? So this is where we're going to talk about that, Abby. Could Reese's mother and sister still be alive? All right, so there is an obvious person who Reese's sister or mother I suppose, but I really think sister could be right And that is room Danon's

56:25 mother in Crescent City, who does have a name. Her name is Lauren. We are given a name for her when Bryce meets Reese in House of Sky and Breath, she says, and I quote the the winged, the winged dark haired male who stepped in behind her. Bryce gasped. Rune. The male blinked. His eyes were the same shade of Violet blue as ruins, his short hair at the same gleaming black. The male skin was browner, but the face, the posture, it was her brothers his ears were pointed to, though he also possessed those leathery wings like the two other males. So we are getting strong, strong, strong kinetic genetic connections here between Reese and between Rune. We know that Rune's father is the high Lord of the Autumn Court, has has red hair like

57:05 Bryce does, like Rune clearly does not really take after him genetically. His mother Lauren has dark hair, is from Abilene, is related to Cormac and the King. Rune inherited his mind speaking ability, mind speaking ability from her line, but she herself does not have that power. So she herself is not a demati. We'll get into that in a little bit. But she does have the dark blue, the dark black sapphire or the dark black Raven hair and the deep blue sapphire, almost Violet like eyes.

57:36 So there's a strong, strong genetic component here. So could Tamlin have possibly opened somehow opened a portal to the Crescent City world and put Lauren in there? It's possible, right? Because in Throne of Glass, I know Selena has to get all the freaking word keys and get the three of those. But like, not in the original and not in the early books, right?

57:57 In the early books, you can just open a portal with word keys. They don't stay, sorry, with word marks, they don't stay open for long, right? But if Tamlin somehow knows word Marks and we'll get into it kind of either later in this episode. So later in a different episode, like there there are word marks in this world. Most likely there are word marks in this world, right? So if Tamlin somehow has knowledge of these word marks, could he have opened a portal and saved them somehow? And like, and what we what he would have to have done? Because I was also thinking, well, Warren had wings. Wouldn't wouldn't Rune have rings in that case? But if he shifts her to a Fae who doesn't have wings, You have pointed out that that when you

58:33 get pregnant, you are you give birth to kind of the form you were in because Phaeera had wings and then Nick had wings, right? So right, if he shifted her that way, if he got rid of her wings, if he put her and glamoured the minds of the people in Crescent City, right? Because we know that Tamlyn can glamour people.

58:51 We know that Maeve can glamour people this way too, right? Maeve, Maeve did this. Maeve did this and thrown a bus. She convinced people that she was part of their family. Could he have put Lauren in the Crescent City world to kind of save her and keep her safe? I feel the same way about this that I did previously. Yes, magically, he could have done that. However, Lauren as a character who, by the way, we only meet in a bonus chapter, she's not even in the main story. Right?

59:16 Like, yeah. She said well, we meet her in the main story, but we don't learn her name. We don't learn her name. She's like, she's like barely on the page. Like we get a bonus chapter with her and Rune. Rune uses the words out to lunch to describe her right? Like she she there's a scene where she doesn't her air conditioning was broken for a month because she was like too afraid to call, I guess a plumber. I don't know, an AC repairman to fix it right, Like she's a plumber.

59:41 Who do you call the fix ACI don't know. I guess I'm going to have to know. Thank you. An HVAC person. OK, right. So she goes two weeks without AC in the height of summer. It's Sarah J masks as a handyman. All right, instead of calling a handyman. She's also like in love with the Autumn King, who fucking sucks. So like, again, like, yes, I do think from a magic perspective, this is possible, but she's such a such a weak character and I just I just don't think that Sarah J Masks would write recently.

1:00:09 His sister that way, but maybe. But maybe. Yeah, she also here's kind of my nail in the coffin for why this doesn't work. The concept of mind speaking seems completely foreign to her. So again, in this bonus chapter, we find out about the first time that Rune found out that he had mind speaking abilities. So basically what he does, he asked for his mother to give him a sandwich, but into her mind, right? He speaks for into her mind.

1:00:35 The quote is. She screamed when she'd heard him in her mind, and in that moment he'd known. Known that the gift was something to hide, to keep secret. When she'd rubbed her head, clearly wondering if she'd imagined things, he'd kept quiet, right? If she's Reese's sister, she knows about the Damati, right? Like she wouldn't find this for, and she might still have room, try to keep it quiet, but like, she wouldn't be scared of it, right?

1:00:57 So do I think this could have happened? Yes. Do I think Lauren is Reese's sister? No, that's how I feel about it. How do you feel about it? I think, I mean, I think it's story wise is tough. If you put gun to my head and said, do you think that Reese's sister is Lauren Dunnell? I would say no, right. There are a couple other points that I had that that linked them and it was all in that bonus chapter. So the fact that we only got her name in the bonus chapter to me is actually a maybe this is something because that's like a puzzle piece that would be like maybe too overt to put into the main story.

1:01:34 Like, maybe we're going to find out that Reese's sister, his name is Lauren. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, that would be why specifically. Yeah. Well, there have been Wilder crossovers before. Hello. Bryce Quinlan. My name is Reese. And the wildest ever. OK so like you said, same exact looks and Reece and Rune look so alike that Bryce literally thought that Reece was Rune.

1:01:58 We also know that Celine looks a lot like Reece's sister. Azrael specifically points this out. That's the other reason I think that Azrael slept with her. If anybody did, I know why are you looking at her so much man. And Lauren in this bonus chapter. This is like so so obscure but she specifically piles orange and grapefruit onto a plate for Rune Citrus.

1:02:21 And Reese's scent is citrus and salt. So to me, indisputably they are of the same lineage. Like whether it's his sister or not, like they are the same line. And I don't think any of us are like arguing against that point necessarily unless you are. I think story wise it's really hard to work out that he is her sister because of the personality traits.

1:02:43 Whoever and this is a reach, I'm going to say it's a reach because people are going to be mad. Definitely not his mom because we know that his mom was like fiery and you know, literally kicked and screamed to keep her wings. We don't know much about Reese's sister. Could she have been very docile?

1:02:58 Totally possible. Whoever moved her there glamoured her mind to remain that way. Say, hey, I need you to be here, I need you to stay alive. I need you to just go with the flow. Like whatever you're asked to do, just like deal with it. Because it doesn't make sense based on who her son is either.

1:03:20 Like Rune is certainly not a docile man. It's true. So like nothing else around her above or below really makes sense with her personality. So could she have been glamored to behave a certain way? Like just go, just behave, stay alive, stay safe. That's all I'm asking of you. Which we've seen Tamlin do, which we saw Tamlin do to Elaine and to pop Archer on the kind of the exact same scenario. Yeah.

1:03:45 And, and I just had a really terrible thought, but this kind of makes sense, right? Because we know we know that Reese's mother loves her wings so much, right? Like, if maybe Tamlin kind of this is, guys, this is a series, OK? We're just throwing this out here, right. But like, maybe Tamlin was like, I can save your life, but you have to give up your wings.

1:04:03 And she was like, no, I'd rather you kill me. But his sister was like, I will take this. I'm OK with it. Yeah, that'd be pretty devastating. Yeah, I like that. I like that theory that maybe because. Yeah, because out to lunch, right? Rune, sorry. Rune describes her as out to lunch if she's glamoured. And she's not De Madi, so she can be. Well, and she doesn't even remember what de Madi are, right?

1:04:25 So that would also imply, which is kind of weird because there are de Madi in this world, right? Specifically on Evelyn, there are de Madi in this world, right? So why is she so surprised when Brune speaks into her mind like her family members? Fuck Ron. I love when you do this, but I. Don't like, I still think the story point holds like it's really so. So I guess the the storyline that works is Tamlin says, hey, I can save you or someone.

1:04:50 I don't, I'm not even convinced it's Tamlin anymore, but someone says, hey, I can save you. I can get you into this other realm. You got to be willing to give up your ring wings. You got to just go with the flow. Reese's mother says, I'd rather die, cut my throat. Fine, that happens. Reese's sister says, no, I'm like, OK, I'll I'll do this.

1:05:05 She's shifted to look like her without her wings basically. And, and her mind is glamoured like, hey, you need to like, not freak out, don't freak out. Behave in a ball. And I guess was where she started. Yeah. And like, you might be married off. Just deal with it. Like just deal with it. You don't remember anything about this world. You don't remember anything about Damati. Just go exist in like.

1:05:27 Starting her as a blank. Slate. Yeah. And then she has Rune, who has all those qualities. He's a spiteful Damati male who looks the same as race the same. OK also I just need to get this off my chest right now and this is kind of a tangent. Rune has to be an incest baby. Like he has to be because he's clearly Celine's descendants through his mother, but he gets the star born. But him and Bryce both have the star born from their father. Or or Bryce's mother is much more interesting that we've been led to believe so far.

1:06:00 Her name is escaping me right now. Amber, but what? He gets the star Warren from his father, but Celine is an ancestor of his mother? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's the way it has. That's yeah. Like so at some point, whatever, it's like thousands of genders, like 15,000 years. So he could be getting the star born from his mother if his mother is. If his mother is Reese's sister, yes. Oh yeah, Fuck yeah.

1:06:28 It's like I drew this out. I know this. Yeah. Selena's Selena's Starborn. But if Lauren is Reese's sister, then he could be getting the Starborn through Celine. But Einer still has to be Starborn actually, because Bryce is is from Einer. So unless Ember, unless Ember is yeah, is Starborn, which would be. Guys, not our Crescent City season, but like yes, potentially anyways in a.

1:06:50 Conclusion Could Reese's mother and sister still be alive? I'm leaning pretty hard towards no on Reese's mother. I'm leaning maybe on Reese's sister. It'd be fun. It'd be fun. I like, I really like that theory that's she's been glamored, that puts all these pieces together. For it, yeah, I mean, she seems perfectly absent.

1:07:08 So it's. Out to lunch. Out to fucking lunch. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Cool. All right, Ronnie, why does Pharaoh's wedding ring have a six pointed star on it? OK. We've got to do a little bit of backdrop here to make this work, but I'm going to try and keep it brief because I think we've got a bunch of questions coming up with a lot of backdrop.

1:07:24 So so we've talked about this ring extensively, right? Pharaoh's wedding room was passed down to Reese by Reese's mother, who was Illyrian. Pharaoh retrieves the wedding ring from the Weaver of the wood, AKA Striga. When she sees it, it's described as we've read it like 3 times on this episode. Sapphire, but different.

1:07:41 I'd never seen a sapphire like that, even at my father's offices. This one I could have sworn in the pale light, the lines of a six pointed star radiated across the round opaque surface. The main avenues of Lunathian form A6 pointed star. Those avenues connect the gates and we know that the gates are kind of used as like they were old school landlines basically. But Bryce uses one of those dates to communicate with Danica, who's dead.

1:08:09 So there's a ton of family tree stuff here, but I'm just going to cut to the chase here and say that we know that Reese and has confirmed the descendant of Fione and Thea, and most likely from Celine specifically. We know this because Helena and Celine are the daughters of Fione and Thea who were originally from Prythian, and Thea in particular chose the island that in ACOTAR is the prison as her home.

1:08:32 We know from Celine's monologue in Crescent City that Thea only deemed herself and her descendants worthy of tending to the island. In A Court of Mist and Fury, we learned that the prison that island is keyed to Reese's blood, so Reese is a member of that descending lineage that they had deemed worthy of having access to the prison.

1:08:54 I don't have a super complex answer here. I believe that the ring was an heirloom from Celine and her husband, High Lord of the Night Court. We know that Celine was on Midgard and escaped from Midgard back to Prytheon and locked all the other Fay out of Prytheon, which is kind of a terrible thing to do.

1:09:09 Bryce gets very mad about it. It famously if she keys that island that's now occupied by the prison to her blood. Rhys is a descendant. We know that that ring was passed from woman to woman, and that ring has the traces of Lunathian on it. You look like I went somewhere you didn't expect me to go. Or you.

1:09:30 Totally did, which is fucking amazing. But So what you're saying, which had not even occurred to me, is that Reese is a descendant of Thea through his mother, not through his. Father. Yeah, I think it's through his mother. I thought that, and that would make sense because then Moore's father would be the one who was originally the high Lord of the Night Court. Yeah, I love that.

1:09:52 I that had not occurred to me. That had not occurred to me at all. So like what's in the ring? I think there's a spirit in the ring. I don't know whose it is. I don't think we. Know who's it is? Like I refuse to believe that Pharah sayings that it looked like there was a spirit from Starfall encased in the sapphire.

1:10:10 Like I refuse to believe that's nothing, but I think this ring is from Lunathian and that it's been passed down from Celine. So you think Celine got the you think Celine got the ring and Lunathian took it back and it has been passed down through Reese's mother's family, which would also mean through the Starborn women? Right, yes, And maybe it's a kernel of first light or something that is just not recognized in Prithian. OK, you totally blew my mind.

1:10:34 I love that I. Really. I thought that's where you were going to go. OK, you go. Where were you going? To go, OK, so hypaxia this I end up at a pretty similar place, but I got there differently. Hypaxia, who is a witch in Crescent City, uses a six pointed star to commune with the dead. Right. So Ethan Holstrom wants to talk to his brother Connor.

1:10:53 The way that hypaxia attempts to do that it fails is that she draws A6 pointed star on the ground, which Ethan also notes is exactly like the layout of lunacion. Hypaxia says it's a symbol of balance. She explained moving away a foot but keeping the dagger at her side. 2 intersecting triangles, male and female, dark and light above and below and the power that lies in the place we're thinking. So it's a very powerful symbol.

1:11:16 I think there's a couple options here. There's like the classic literary options. So like the six pointed stars just representation of like recent Faera, right. So the symbols balanced male and female. It's recent fare a meeting as equals. That was fucking boring. The link to hypaxia I think is kind of interesting because it could mean that she's potentially a linked.

1:11:38 This is this links her to the witches, right? It links her to hypaxia. Whether the witches in Crescent City are the same as the witches in thrown a glass. We don't quite know, but it links her to hypaxia and the witches there are at then this this all links back. There are also in throne of Glass witch's world, there are seers right? There are witches who ingest herbs, specifically blood bane in caves to commune with other worlds to commune with spirits. Right There is a scene where Selena takes blood bane and says well, I have the quote.

1:12:09 Selena drinks the blood bane poison. She says she has to end this now before the hallucination started, she knew they'd be powerful. Sears had once used blood Blaine, blood Bane as a drug to view the spirits from the other world. And Selena starts hallucinating and seeing all these valve demons. That's right.

1:12:24 But it's not a hallucination. It's real. We know it's real. She's actually seeing another word. Blood being exists in this world. We know that blood being exists because that is the arrow that is the poison that is on the arrows that go through Reese's wing in Mist and Fury, right. We know that Reese's mother was taking herbs to try to stop her period. So did she take Blood Bane?

1:12:43 Did she see the other worlds? That is where my head went with this six pointed star. And this is just kind of a a little nod to the idea that she is a wish and that she can see that she has that power to see the future or to commune with other worlds. When she takes the blood vein. That's where my thought went. It's kind of, it's like a lot of different pieces being put together.

1:13:02 I love your theory though. I love the theory that this is Celine's ring. I think that's fucking great. Also, like what you described is how you found the six pointed star. In both cases, that six pointed star was a link to speaking with the dead. To the dead. Exactly. Yeah. So like, who's in the ring?

1:13:21 Get there. Who's in the ring? They're all fucked. That's great. I don't know. I don't have an answer for that one. But who is in the ring? Yeah, I don't know. In this moment. And I could change my mind next week. In this moment, someone's in that ring. I want to be so I feel I feel the need to go on this before we get into this next question, because this next question is huge guys, I want to say that this is a theory.

1:13:43 These are theories that will evolve and expand as we continue. If you were with us for 4th wing firm period, you know, that's kind of how we work. But like I think I reserve the right to say what I think today might not be what I think tomorrow. Absolutely. But we're cooking with fire. I love what we're doing. OK, Abby is Reese Starborn.

1:14:03 I literally have butterflies, yes, and ready. There is no such thing as starborn. It is just being in a steri and I'm going to tell you why. Tell me more. Do you think, do you agree with me? Is that what you got to? It's not what I got to, so now I'm so excited, OK? Because. It also doesn't interfere with what I got to so go. This is you guys.

1:14:21 This is fucking huge. I really truly think this is like kind of the reveal of the series if I'm being honest. And I'm 99% sure I'm right, not 100. I reserve the right to change my mind. My heart is literally racing. This is I did a little preview of this theory on Instagram. I put up a trial reel with three literally just three screenshots, 3 fucking quotes and I end the title of the trial reel was when you realize why Reese is so much more powerful than all the other high Lords.

1:14:47 And this is the post where a woman accused me of trying to start trauma and I'm like, literally just put it put up quotes, didn't put up anything. All right, all right, let's get a little more into the Thea Helena Celine Vesperous, Vesperous back story because Vesperous is the key here. These Crescent City chapters are the key.

1:15:04 All right, so Vesperous is the hold on, I'm going to take my sweater off. I'm too hot. I'm sweating bullets. All right, Vesperous is the Esteri that Bryce finds other than the prison in Crescent City 3. So right, you just mentioned the whole prison back story. In Crescent City 3, Bryce accidentally opens up a chamber under the prison.

1:15:20 We meet Vesperus, who is an Esteri, who has been living in Prythean in this narcophagus the whole time, right? Saya, who is Celine and Helena's mother that we mentioned, is the founder of the Starborn line in Midgard, but originally came from Prythian. What we know about Saya and Vesperous is that she served Vesperous in Prythian.

1:15:38 She was like her lady in waiting, et cetera, but she helped overthrow the Esteri and kick them out of Prythian. Saya married Feon, the High King of Prythian, and had two daughters, Helena and Celine. After Feon died, she ruled Prythian but decided that each of her daughters deserved their own realm. So she opened a portal to Midgard, brought both her daughters over there, but they were tricked by the Asteri into being slaves again.

1:16:02 They did not recognize the Asteri when they saw them because Ridgeless was disguised as a fae. Celine made it back, Helena did not. And we get Celine's story in Crescent City 3. Celine creates the prison and traps horrible creatures inside of it to cover up the darkness that the Asteri left behind.

1:16:16 You already mentioned so the first question is Celine a descendant of Reese? I think absolutely 100% that is like proven. We don't answer into it. Sorry Yes has real comments that Celine looks just like Reese's sister when he sees the projection of her in the prison. So that is speculation. We get confirmation right?

1:16:34 So Celine who is starborn again, Thea's daughter, marries the high Lord of the night court and has a son with him. She keys the prison wards to his blood. The prison doors open for Reese. Reese says they're key to my. We know 100%. Reese is a descendant. Reese is a descendant. Reese is a descendant.

1:16:52 Yeah, Celine is an ancestor. OK, here are the quotes. So. So Selena's talking about Lena's talking about her son. No one knew. So she brings her son to the prison to key the word, to key the blood. No one knew that the infant who sometimes glow with Starlight inherited from me, that it was the light of the evening star, the dusk star.

1:17:14 OK, the light of the evening star. That is the power, that is the starborn power that this child has, the light of the evening star. Then we meet Vesperus. Vesperus and Bryce are talking. Bryce says. What's your name? You may call me Vesperous. The creature's eyes glowed with irritation. Are you related to Hesperus?

1:17:31 Bryce Arshtabrau at the name so similar to one of mid guards of Steri, the Evening Star. I am the Evening Star. Vespera seized It is her power. OK? This child has her power. That is what the Starborn line is. Now I know you might be thinking, how do they say have a Steri power? I think there are two ways that this could have happened I think. I think that Thea is Vesperus daughter and I'm going to tell you why I think that.

1:17:55 All right. When Vesperus meets Bryce, she immediately starts barking at her. She calls her a slave. She's like so mean to her, she's so condescending, she's terrible. So how she reacts to Bryce when she sees her and thinks Bryce is Faye. The females long nails scraped against the lid of the coffin. She didn't look at them as she tests the lid for weaknesses. I am your God, I am your master.

1:18:17 Do you not know me? Right? So she is like speaking to Bryce as she would speak to a normal fae. That is not how she describes Thea. That is not how she speaks about Thea. So she listens. First of all, she listens to Thea, right? So should we know that Vespers listens to Thea? Because Vespers says Thea was so charming that day, told me I look tired and to replenish myself in the crystal here above the well, but she sealed me within instead to let me starve to death over the eons, right? So Thea said you look tired, why don't you rest right? And that's where it's actually listened to her. That's point 1.2.

1:18:50 She raised her from childhood, so she says it would have been a mercy to kill me. Thea did not understand that word. I raised her from childhood, not to. She could come down here every now and then and stare at me. I slept but could sense her there, gloating over me, convinced of her triumphs. Right? So she's raised her from childhood. Why did she do that?

1:19:09 Where with Thea as parents. Third, she trained her right? So Thea had the gift, Espera says, but she did not understand how to claim the light. I made sure never to reveal how during her training, how she might light up entire worlds if she wished, if she sees the power to amplify her own. But you, light stealer, she must have passed the gift down to you, and it seems you have learned what she did not.

1:19:29 Why would Vesperus train Thea how to use her starboard powers if Vespers did not herself know how to use those powers? So I think that she's Thea's mother and Thea could not bring herself to kill Vesperus when she killed all these other Esteria. Why did she Why did she not kill Vesperus? Right there is when when Bryce first sees a picture of Thea, she's she knows the similarity between Thea and Vesperus. So she said.

1:19:54 Bryce's breath remained caught in her throat. Nesta still is death at her side as the scene shifted to a golden haired high faith. Female standing a step behind the Asteris throne, her chin was lifted, her face as cold as her mistresses. Right. So again, they both have the same cold look. They don't look the same genetically, but they both have the same cold look. Other theory theory #2 here why this still works. Celine and Helena are actually Vespers's daughters, and they use Thea as a womb.

1:20:22 And the reason why that could work is because Thea did not get pregnant for a really long time and then miraculously has two daughters in the span of five years, right? So, and we see this with Hunt, right? We see this with Hunt and what the Princess of Hell do with Hunt, where they basically use his mother.

1:20:37 It's kind of like a vessel. It's icky. But did Vespers create Helena and Celine? I don't know why, but did she create Helena and Celine? And are they the ones who are the offspring of Vespers? I don't think, I don't think this is necessarily true. I think it's Thea herself. Do you want to pause?

1:20:54 Do you want to react to that? So far I just want to make. Sure, I'm following. So Vesperous is the mother of Thea, which makes sense because Thea is the one with the light. Like Thea is the the first real one that we know of who is starborn. Do you have a thought on who Thea's? Father is though.

1:21:13 I don't. I think there is no father. Yeah, that's alright. Yeah, I do not. I like. That a lot better than than Vesperous being the mother of Celine and Helene. So do I, So do I, Yeah, yeah, Yeah. OK, Yeah. For many reasons. For many reasons, and I'm going to. Get, I mean, I very specific reasons why I think that makes more sense. All right, so.

1:21:34 Specifically, I don't think it's the case because Bryce specifically has Thea's power, right? She grabs the three pieces of Thea's power and Reese who has Celine's power, not Helena's, right? So it would not go down through Helena's line. They both have the power of the Evening Star. So the common thread is there, right?

1:21:53 It's not Helena and Celine because that is two different branches. The common thread is Thea in Crescent City chapter 59. The quote is explain Bryce orders the demon Princess, Starlight rippling from her right. So that sounds like Reese, right? Bryce also makes stars appear around her and hunt when they're having sex.

1:22:10 Those were quotas. Those were those were actual stars dancing around them, filling the room. Reese, of course, does this in Frost and Starlight with Farah. The quote is, this is a little racy. I'm going to read the second sentence. Stars flickered around us, sweet, sweet darkness sweeping in as if we're the only souls in the Galaxy.

1:22:27 And still Reese remained before me, my legs wrapped around his waist. So that's Frost and Starlight Chapter 22 the other one and this is the big one for me. When we meet Vesperus she is wearing a crown of stars. OK so Vesperus description there was no mistake in the cold otherworldly eyes. She lounged in golden robes, a crown of stars upon upon her head.

1:22:49 Her red lips pulled back in a cold smile as her hand closed tightly around the seat of power. So, and again, this is Celine's projection. Yeah, we have to put together that is Vesperous. But Thea is behind her. You can tell that it's Vesper. She's wearing the golden robe that she is wearing when Bryce meets her. So Vesperous is wearing a crown of a crown of stars. When Hunt sees Bryce on Avalon, her chin lifted and he could have sworn a crown of stars limbered around her head. I want to wipe them off the face of the planet, she said, and her voice was soft.

1:23:19 Nothing but pure predatory rage filled it. So he sees this crown of stars around her on Avalon. Later, in the Esteri Palace, he sees it too, so he says. She says. I promised myself that day Mike had cut off your wings. Bryce said, still just for him. That they pay for it, what they've done. Starlight flickered around her head in a shadow of that crown of stars. Reese also wears a crown of stars to the Court of Nightmares.

1:23:42 Right, So like, it all goes back to Vespers. Vespers is the source of this power. Vespers is the source of the Starborn power. I have more, I have more. We could get into it, but once you see it, guys. I believe you. It is there like it is vest versus power. The Star born power is vest versus power of the Evening Star. I'm not saying she is the only one. I think there could be other Steri powers in play here, but there is no such thing as Star born. It is just being a descendant of an Asteri. Well it's it's star born fae or a fae bloodline that has a steri blood in it, which makes sense.

1:24:16 Exactly. I guess the only and it actually even goes further and makes sense in that the Starborn light needs to be charged and so do the asteri. What is Bryce's drop? What is her drop if it is not absorbing first light like that is exactly what she does. That is exactly what she does. Do you want to hear a really fun tie that I found? So Vesperus describes multiple times in this chapter that she sees things through dreams, right? So she she sees Thea dancing on her grave in dreams. She sees the middle in her dreams. Who else do we know who sees the world through dreams? Reese Reese phaeahs life through her dreams. Reese sees Pharaoh's mortal life through her eyes and her dreams, right.

1:25:00 Yeah. And then she sees him when she's on the Supreme Court. Like there's so much once you see it, there's so, so, so much physical characteristics. So for Reese, his short black hair gleamed like a Raisin, Ravens feathers offsetting his pale skin and blue eyes so deep they were Violet even in the firelight.

1:25:16 They twinkled with amusement as he as he beheld me For Vesperous we get. As if an answer to Azrael's question, the female in the coffin opened her eyes. They were a crushing blue. And they gloat. So we have the glowing blue eyes, her dark hair. It was too dark. Somehow it didn't reflect the light at all. It shouldn't have existed in nature. So we have the crushing blue eyes. We have the hair that is so dark that it absorbs the light like it's Vesperous.

1:25:40 This is Vesperous's line. That is what is happening here. And I'm, I'm like 99% on this one, guys. This is the one that I'm like so sure of. And again, if you go back and read Crescent City, there is a moment at the end of Crescent City where Bryce absorbs Rigilis's powers. Like he touches her and she absorbs his power. And then when they're in the black hole, when they're in the void, the exact same thing happens with another Esteri. Like Bryce is just, and it's like she just has the Esteri bloodline, the Esteri power.

1:26:08 Like that is that is what is happening here. There are so many similarities. There is a counterpoint here because at one point she does ask the Princess of hell if she is an Esteri. So she says, is it the same power as the Esteri's? She did. She hadn't realized how much the question had been weighing on her, eating at her. No Apollyon cut in scowling.

1:26:25 They are similar in their ability to destroy, that the Osteria's power is a blunt, wicked tool of destruction, Adis added, eyes shining with sympathy. Starfire's ability to destroy is but one facet of a wondrous gift. The greatest difference, of course, lies and how the bearer chooses to use it.

1:26:40 So Apollyon says yes. But Adis, who was Thea's mate, does not say that. It's not the same power, right? He says it's about how you build it. So I think this was Sarah J Maas kind of hedging here and like Apollyon doesn't know that it's the same power, but maybe ADIS does. Yeah. OK. So Reece. Reece is starborn. Reece is has a steri blood.

1:27:05 And that's why he's so much more powerful than all the high Lords. That's that's. Has a steri like that means a lot of people have a steri blood potentially, yeah. Bryce has a steri blood for sure. Rune does, yeah. Reece, do you want me to bring up my full list? Of people who have a story blood I guess it's the same as the list of the star 1 so we. Well, kind of.

1:27:26 Okay, I was debating whether or not to go on this tangent, but fuck it, we're gonna go on it. Do you remember the theory we had a couple of episodes ago about J Mati just being, well, actually, I can't talk about it yet. Never mind, we'll do it later. Yes, there are a lot of people who are potentially Starborn, including Farrah, and we'll get to it later. Well, we'll get to it in the Farrah episode. Yeah, OK.

1:27:46 I mean, yeah, I believe it. I don't think we've had a great explanation for like, what's what this light actually comes from. So we absolutely have. Not we have never gotten this explanation and I think that light is simply one piece of this power. Like it is possible that this is just raw power and the light.

1:28:03 I have a literally a whole list going. And again, we might get to in Crescent City, but there are a lot of powers that I think are associated with being Starborn that are not just this, this Starfire, like like like Rune, when he takes the potion, he can heal, right? Who else do we know who can heal Irene, right?

1:28:20 Like there's healing, there's light, there's Damati, there's all this stuff that is associated with being Starborn that like, I think just all leads back to this bloodline. Yeah, I guess the only thing we don't see, and I don't think this isn't necessarily a point against it because of the next question, but we don't see Reese wield Starlight.

1:28:41 We do not. We do not. I agree. Yeah, I agree. We do not. But all that really means is. Well, we know that Rune only has a kernel A. Little bit, yeah. Right. So I think this, so this is what this is kind of what I'm getting to. I don't think that I think the Starlight is 1 facet of this power. I don't think it's all of this power.

1:29:00 We absolutely see him wield the evening star, the night stuff, right? Like that is definitely there. But we, yeah, we don't see him wheeled Starlight, but we do see Pharah wheeled Starlight, right? Yep, sure do so. And where does she get that from? Ilian or Reese or Reese gave it to her. Yeah, one of the High Lords. We'll get there.

1:29:19 Yeah, we'll get there. OK. I need to. I know, I'm sorry. That was like you were. I literally figured this out. I started jumping on the bed. You were on a flight to Italy. I was like, I'm not going to bother her, but I had that fucking wait to record this episode. OK I just answering this next one is is going to be.

1:29:35 Do you have thoughts on this one? My I went. I mean, like my answer was yes and all of the same like points linking Reece to the Starborn ancestors, but my counterpoint was like Starlight as we know it has not been seen in Reece. That being said, like it's said to skip generations, I want to talk more at some point in a actual Starborn episode about whether really skips generations because as we just discussed, I'm not convinced on Einer.

1:30:02 I'm not convinced. I'm not either. Yeah. So we'll talk about that later. Yeah. But I mean, I obviously did not link it to a stary bloodline, but that's OK. Yeah, well, right. But like also why is Danica like we've got, we haven't gotten a full explanation into why Danica was so interested, like why Danica's bloodline research was so important, right. Yeah.

1:30:24 I think it's this think it's, I think this is the piece of it which. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time in this universe that like the big bad have interbred. Exactly. It's not that. I mean, it's crazy, but it's not like that crazy like. I think we have to answer the next question. And we have to answer all right, so I have a bit of a monologue for this one, so just bear with me.

1:30:48 It might be a totally different place than where you went, but I can't get it out of my head. So our next question is, is Rhys Valg. This is probably the most popular mass verse theory on the Internet. So I want to start by talking about how we define and understand Valg, because I think people also conflate this with the question of is Reese evil? I think those are two different questions. I'm going to make that very clear. I'm focused on is Reese Valg.

1:31:15 That's the focus of this question for me, and I want to define Valg. So we and the whole fandom have historically, probably before we dug into this series, thought of them as parasitic beings identified by giving their hosts black eyes and being killed by beheading. But I want to talk about everything we know about them just as facts. Like just how we learn about them. We are first introduced to the Valg in Throne of Glass when Dorian seeks out Baba Yellowlegs to learn more about his magic. Baba Yellowlegs reveals that witches either inherited their lifespans from the Fae or the Valg. She's not sure which one.

1:31:50 Dorian registers the name Valg and remembers them as demons. Who stole Fay for breeding, who invaded Aurelia at the dawn of time. Baba Yellowlegs later confirms them as demons from another realm. We first see actual Valg in this series that we know of Infirmed Valg. When Selena first faces down actual Valg in Air Fire, she recognizes the Valg as three things inside mortal bodies. Those three things call themselves Princess of our realm and cite that their realm is a realm of eternal dark and ice and wind.

1:32:29 Side note here, that is actually Part 1 of the main point. There are another set of beings in this universe that take other forms and come from a world of dark and ice. Apollyon is 1 of the 7 Princess of Hell. Specifically, the Prince of the Pit presents himself in dreams as different beings. We'll come back to what he presents himself as in a minute. Adis is the Prince of the Chasm and that's a 5th circle and typically presents himself to Bryce and cat form When Adas visits Bryce and Lunathian and in other times when the Prince's visit, the temperature drops rapidly and the room literally coats with ice to dangerous levels like hell is a world of ice.

1:33:04 OK so we've got a hint that maybe the valve could be connected to Hell. Let's keep going on just like the Valg history thread. The next important thing that we learned about the Valgas from Nave we later find out is Valg that there are many races and they are ruled by Princess who have no bodies to occupy except for those they infiltrate.

1:33:23 She says there aren't many Princess but she once witnessed an entire legion of fae warriors devoured by 6 of them in hours. Napoleon is famously called Star Eater. He has a black hole for a mouth, so devoured is a very interesting choice of words here. Later in Throne of Glass, Duke Perrington cites that his allies from another realm who are the Valg want to breed with witches as a sort of experiment. We we also know that the Princess of Hell bred and experimented with different species themselves creating Thunderbirds on Athalar who was basically an experiment of genetic modeling by Napoleon and Thanatos who is the Prince of the Ravine.

1:34:05 And then finally we see two valgroyals in the flesh and throne of glass right? Erawan, who takes the form of a golden haired male with golden eyes said to look exactly like Manans. And Maze who was described as a Raven haired beauty with black depthless eyes except for one moment where she said to have Violet starry eyes.

1:34:27 So how does this all relate to Reese's lineage? Well, there are a few specific parallels that we can draw here. First, we've talked about the set length. At this point, Maeve, Reese, and Rune Dana all have Violet blue starry eyes and Raven black hair. Maeve is said to be Balg and Rune is said to be Starborn.

1:34:45 Second, there is this common thread of ice and wind and dark. Reese, in the midst of his nightmare, in a court of missing fury, is freezing. His skin was freezing, his breath was icy. There was so much wind that Farah's hair was whipping around her. And 3rd, Apollyon has presented himself to Hunt and Bryce each independently in their dreams, and presents himself in Hunt's dreams as a being with Leathery. Wings finally well and represents in Bryce's dreams as golden haired.

1:35:18 As golden, golden skin. Yeah. Yeah. And golden skin just like everyone. Yeah. And then finally, we've talked about this at length of this point, too. This is descended from Thea. Celine just looks just like Reese's sister. We have been told that Thea and Fiona had Helena and Celine, but we also know that Adis was Thea's mate.

1:35:36 So where I'm going with all of this, and then I'll pause to react. I think the Valgor actually a variety of races from hell. I think the Valgar from hell. I think Erwana may were royalty and the other parasitic Valg were others or other races or lesser beings. And I think Reese and like all of his like mishmash of powers that is so different from everybody else is both starborn hysteria and descended from hell.

1:36:00 Possibly from a line started by Adas and Thea. Great. Because I think the hysteria and the Valgar the same thing. So we're now saying all three of these things are the same thing. OK. Which I have thought, which I have thought when reading this because I at least think they're all from the same home world.

1:36:17 Do you want me to read my quotes or do you want to keep going I guess before you read your? Quotes like how I'm not saying I disagree, but if the Osteria and the Valgar the same thing, which I'm not disagreeing with because like this whole eye color trend is actually just a farce, right? Like there's no there's no consistent eye colors other than just like tying lineage to each other. Like everyone has gold eyes, maybe has like Violet eyes but sometimes black.

1:36:41 Like that's not really valid. But the but in Crescent City the series, the Princess of hell are like trying to banish and have banished the asteris. So are they just like opposing parties from the same world? I think that is probably what is happening here. I have that in my notes. I didn't bring in the Princess of Hell into this, but I have had that thought many times because the description of the home world between the Valg, Asteri and Hell are so similar.

1:37:09 And the reason I think the Asteri and the Valg are the same or specifically because of words that are used when describing those races. And I can get into it. I, I've had this thought too. Like there's just so much similarity between the three of them. Like I think there might, I think we're dealing with factions. I think we're dealing with a civil war. I think we're dealing with a complex society here and not just like, one thing, OK?

1:37:34 OK, should I? Yeah, yeah, go for it. And then we'll keep talking because I think this is a fucking great conversation. All right, so the reason I think they're the same thing. We have quotes from me and Kingdom of Ash when she is describing the Valk world, right. We have, I have this in a couple places. So the first one is, is Maeve telling Eilan a story about the Valk, she says, telling her a story about a queen who walked between worlds who had not been content in the realm in which she'd been born and had found a way to leave it using the not the lost knowledge of ancient wayfarers. World Walker.

1:38:06 So we have wayfarers and world walkers here. Those are the keywords. I am a world Walker may have said. I've traveled between universes. Do you think moving between rooms would be so hard? These are all random quotes. It was, and the more she read about these other worlds where long dead wayfarers had once roamed, the more she wanted to see them.

1:38:23 And then our last quote, using the very language of existence itself. Doors might be opened, however briefly, between worlds. It was forbidden, outlawed. Long before her husband and his brothers were born, once the last of the ancient wayfarers had died out. Our paths between realms were sealed, their methods of world walking lost with them. Or so all had thought.

1:38:42 But deep in her husband's private library, she found the old spell. She began with small experiments. First, she opened the door to the realm of Resting to find those wayfarers. And ask how it was properly done. A knowing smile. The Wayfarer refused to tell her. So the queen began to teach herself. So those are the quotes we have from Abe about wayfarers and world walkers when we need Vesperus. That's where Bryce says where did you come from before you arrived here?

1:39:06 Vesperus folded her hands and her lap. A planet that was once green, as this one is. And that wasn't good enough. We grew to populace. Wars broke out between the various beings on our world. Some of us saw the changes in the land beginning. Rivers run dry, clouds so thick the Suns could not Pierce them and left our brightest minds found ways to bend the fabric of worlds to travel between them. Wayfarers, we called them world walkers. So I think it has to be the same planet. But she says there are various beings on our world, right? So I think think it's the same planet. They may not all be the same things, but I think like the same species.

1:39:43 But like, I think, I do think they're all from the same place because the similarities are just too crazy and we're using the same words with Valg and Asteri here. Yeah. How, like how do we have a link of the Asteri world to dark and ice? Is that like, are they just saying that that world like died basically and became a world of dark and ice?

1:40:05 Yeah, yeah. I mean, rivers run dry clouds, so I think the sun could not Pierce them. And left, which is what? Which is what Maeve says happened to the Valcom world, right? Basically like war broke out. Yeah. I mean, and again, guys, as we said, like the theories will evolve. This is absolutely one of those series that will fall. I'm not necessarily willing to like stake my claim here, but there are so many points where she specifically draws the similarity.

1:40:30 Yeah, OK. Because I think I'm definitely bought OnStar born being Faye with Asteri blood. I'm obviously bought on Valg. And hell, I think I need to think more about Asteri and Valg having the same home world. I mean, the same terminology makes obviously a lot of sense, but they've met before. So is that terminology a product of when they've met, or are they actually from the same place?

1:40:56 Well, they both are. They both are claiming the wayfarers, which I think is interesting. Like they're both saying, yeah, these are ours, right? And I absolutely have to think more about this, too. This was not our. Yeah, because like, the Princess of Hell banished them from their realm. Well, the Princess. Of hell specifically say that like they did not our magic could not sustain them, like they did not find our magic compatible with them.

1:41:20 Which is why I'm I wasn't 100% on the Princess of hell. Is Jerry being the same thing? Yeah, there's another option here. So it is possible that they're not the same, but that the Asteri conquered the home world of the Valg. When when Bryce finds the Asteri timeline in crescents in House of Sky and Breath, there is a planet called Aphraxia that the Valg conquered and left within 40 years. So it's not Arolea or sorry that the Asteri that the Asteri conquered and left within 40 years. So it's not Arolea because they're in Arolea for hundreds of years.

1:41:53 So it's possible that that's what's happening here. But there is also, we've talked about Reese and Maeve and this connection between them, right? Like Aylan or Dorian, I don't remember who I didn't pull the quote at one point describes the feeling of Maeve in their minds as black talents, right?

1:42:08 Black talent scraping on their mind. It's exactly the same way that Reese's Damati powers are described. And I think we are in agreement now that Reese's austerity, right? So like, I think it has to be the same because there's so many like genetic. Similarities. Well, not if he's also a descendant of Vag and they're a separate. Yeah, that works.

1:42:28 He is both Valg and a Seri and a Prince of Hell descendant. To get to your point earlier about theories on the Internet, I do think we should talk about this. We are not saying that Reese is possessed by a Valk, right? That is not what we're saying at all. We are saying that he is actually a Valg descendant, potentially in the way that Maeve is also not possessed by a Valg or possessing a fate body. She just exists as she is, right? Yes I still until I re war myself I'm still of the mind that Reese has a starborn line also has a valve line. But to me valve are just from hell. Like it's just a crossbreed of a steri and hell. Yeah, could be.

1:43:11 Wait one SEC, hold on. Yeah. OK, So this was a point up to your point. I had this because in the Asteri timeline they say AE 17,000 and one lost hell that's in there that's in their timeline lost hell, but they never say when they conquered hell. Yeah, that's not on the timeline that it's timeline begins in 680 to 17,000 a month. So like, were they always on hell? Like was was hell their home world and did they try to conquer?

1:43:37 Oh, well, hold on. This would mean. Well, now I'm just in circles, all right. Did they try to conquer the Valg? You're saying the Valg and the Princess of Hell are the same, right? I'm saying the Valgar from hell. The Valgar from hell. They try to conquer hell, but then the Princess of the Valg realm are also Princess of hell.

1:43:53 We've only met also Princess of Hell. Yeah, we've only met 3 of both of them. Well, we know. And we know the four other ones are missing. They're just out. They're just out fighting the Esteri is what Ada or Polygon tells us. I don't remember who. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe we do have more questions than answers. Well, Vesper says there are various beings. She says wars broke out between the various beings on our world. Right.

1:44:15 So there's multiple. And they have said the same thing about the valve. There's various species. Right. So I'm thinking, I'm thinking the same plant. I'm thinking they're all free from the same planet. And we guys, this is not the last time we're going to talk about this. We will get into this more. What is Reese?

1:44:31 Reese's? All of them. By the way, being made, same thing we got there, same thing. Well yeah, since we're in Mass first like being made, we need to figure out like what role the Cauldron actually plays, if any. Because the Cauldrons home world is Prythian. Yeah, but Cauldron is corrupted by the Osteri.

1:44:48 But it was warped. Yeah, by the Osteri, Right, so. What power do Elaine and Nesta have? The Asteri power, which is the starboard power. Yeah, OK. OK, we said it would be a big episode, guys. All right in. Just to wrap up in conclusion. So your argument is that Asteri and Valg are the same things because of the wayfarers and the world walking and the similarities of the descriptions of the world like different factions species of people wore broke out. I think the Valg are actually from Hell, and I think that Reese could be descended from both the Starborn fate and Hell. And I think they might all work.

1:45:26 Maybe both of those are true and Reese's just a just a steri. Yeah, that's what I think. But he has his own. Yeah, we need to talk more about it. We'll talk more about it. He has his own power. He doesn't need to bleach off of anybody but they also. Like off of anybody? The beings in Prytheon are one with the power of the land. Yeah, so that is.

1:45:48 So that is a point I wanted to bring up here because there are obvious differences between Valg and Asteri, right? Like there's like like Valgar, like black and oily and Asteri are like angelic and white. Vespers has a line. I see if I can find the exact quote, but it's basically like I drink of the Land's magic and the Lance magic drink from me.

1:46:08 So like I think that the Esteri adapts to whatever world they're on. I think so like if, if the Land's magic is like black and oily, that's what they adapt to. That's why they appear by if they are Val, that's why they appear black and oily and Aralia. And in Midgard we know they feed off first light, which is like like, right. So like, that's why they appear like first light in like white angelic beings in Midgard.

1:46:35 That's my thinking. Yeah, I'm not sure as hell it sounds a lot like Cal and my, which famously, only Tamlin does. All right, we got. A guys, this is the beginning. We'll talk more about it. But in future episodes. OK, do you have a pre card corner theory? I have two. OK, so. I want to go back to the our Weaver theory, what we were talking about before and kind of do my full mass first Weaver theory here, right?

1:47:01 So we know that Weaver is a death God. We know there is a quote that the death gods were kind of the pets of the Asteri made by the Asteri. We know she also bleeds black when she dies, right? So that's another link between the Valk and the Asteri because we've been told that they're the pets of the Asteri.

1:47:17 But we are getting a you're getting a Weaver who bleeds black. Vesperus also bleeds black, by the way, when she dies. So that is another link between the Valg and the Asteri. So the Weaver is Valg slash was made by the Valg slash is a Steri. So her and Reese are the same, right? Era gets a kernel of Reese's power.

1:47:38 And when she is thinking about Reese, the Weaver does not find her. That's why, because they are both Valg, right? Because they both have this Valg, A steri bloodline within them or like some connection to it, whether it's a magical tie or something. But it's not just Reese and Ferret. It is Reese and the Ferret and the Weaver now all having these magical ties to each other. And that is why the Weaver does not find her until she starts to kind of reject that idea and starts to think about her humanity.

1:48:07 So that's my full mass first first theory on that one. OK, OK, OK. I like it. What's your next one? Oh, you want to do my next one? Yeah, I want to revisit our idea about Amarantha prepping for the Esteri with the hearts, right, With the the stone hearts. Like at the time we just threw that out, we were like, that's kind of crazy, right. But if Valgan Asteri are the same thing she makes under the mountain her stronghold, which was once in a steri Patlis Fayer talks about all the carvings that are on the walls, which is also in a steri thing, right.

1:48:38 So like have all these carvings on the walls or at least carvings that the Faye did them, but they depict the pictures of the Esteri, which they called the Daglin. But we know that that is what is in the prison and favor remarks that there's carvings on the walls under the mountain. So I think it's totally reasonable to think that there are also carvings of the Esteri under the mountain.

1:48:57 Yep. The quote is that small part of me that it again become trivial and useless. Noted that the carvings weren't just ornate designs, but actually depicted fairies and high fan animals in various environments and states of movement. Countless stories of Prythians were etched on them. Right, so there could be pictures of the Asteria on there too. If the Valg and the Asteria are the same, then the idea that Amarantha was actually making space was actually creating space.

1:49:22 To use your words for the Asteria to come. Because I think Asteria travel in packs of seven, which would mean that the Valk thing doesn't work, right? But like Vesper says, there's a Vesperous in Paranthian and there is a Hesperus in Midgard, right? Which kind of implies to me that they travel in these packs of like 7 very similar like groups. I don't know.

1:49:42 We have the seven high Lords. I think that the Steri travel in packs of seven. So I think the idea that she was making space for the Steri to come and kind of conquer these worlds does actually work. And we don't know what the Steri look like when they first to ride at a world, right? So like we know you mentioned it before that Arowind eventually doesn't need a human body to inhabit.

1:50:04 He can have his own body. So if the Esteri are trying to infiltrate a world, they're trying to sneak in, right? I think that's when they inhabit the body so that no one suspects that anything is different, right? That's how they kind of like sneak into society. And then once they like kind of conquered enough, exactly what Arowan does, right? Then they shed their skin.

1:50:23 Then they show kind of their like true form true colors, which is not actually their true through form we know. But then they like are like, OK, here I am as a person. So I think that theory works. I think it'd be crazy, but I think it. Works. Yeah, I think it works OK. I mean yeah, there are also 7 Princess of Hell, but I don't think they.

1:50:42 Right traveling in packs of seven. Yeah, but they don't travel together, so. Far. They don't. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's seven is everywhere in these. Books. Yeah, there's sevens everywhere. Yeah, I think it works. This only works. That only works, I think, if they truly are all the same Hell, Valg Asteri, because Amarantha, whether you're a witch or a Stiggy and spider, that's Valg connected. So if the if she's prepping for the Asteri, she's either a traitor or that's the same.

1:51:14 OK my precard corner theory was also played off Amarantha just because that's was our last episode and I had nothing left in the tank on Reese's family. But it is like Valg related. So we talked about Amarantha potentially being a Stiggian spider or witch and I actually like I have questions about Shriega too. I'm going to be honest because she is described as a spider in her home, but I actually can think of 1 like pretty overt spider reference that has nothing to do with Amoranth or Strega that we see in Prythian.

1:51:47 It was inspired by a social media shout out. And so I'll give some credit here to cats on the South side. I don't know what kind of gang you're running on the South side. Sounds like it's one full of cats. But last so last episode we talked about spiders. So we see silk absolutely everywhere in this series. The Castle Southside pointed out that the Weaver in Velaris could have an interesting connection to spiders. So there's a Weaver in Velaris in Frost and Starlight that weaves this fabric called void after her husband dies in the war.

1:52:21 And void is like an absence of color to represent her feeling of loss. And she stitches into it a fabric called Hope. It's actually really beautiful moment. Well, that woman's name is Irenaea, and Irenaeus is a species of Weaver spider. They're spiders and Prithean. OK, And the Void, Apollyon's father, all of the Princess of Hell come from the Void.

1:52:43 So the Princess of Hell are the sons. We found this out in in House of Sky and Breath. The Princess of Hell said that they are birthed from the Void and from Chaos. But the void comes up all the time, especially in Crescent City. Yeah. But yeah, in Throne of Glass, like when Selena first opens a portal, she says it's a portal to the Void. Like the Void is all over this thing. So I am very much like, who is this woman who is the Weaver? Because, like, you're not the Weaver. Who is Irenae?

1:53:12 Because she seems to know something. Irenaeus. Yeah. Oh yeah, Napoleon has the patents. They call his power the power of the void. That's how he devours the heart of Sirius. Yeah, lots of void. They're from hell. The void is coming. The void is coming. Yeah, I'm interested to see how this fire magic works against the void, can I say? A thought that just popped into my mind because I was just rereading this and it actually kind of ties into everything we've been saying here.

1:53:42 It's in Crown of Midnight, so it's the second Throne of Glass book. When I think Elena is talking about the yellow legs, but I don't remember exactly, and she's describing Bobby, Yellow legs is describing the word and what the word is. And what she says is, I don't have the exact quote, but it's like basically like the word is the force that keeps planets apart.

1:54:02 Right now you could be standing at the bottom of the ocean on another world, but you wouldn't know, which I think is what we're talking about here, right? There's all these similarities between the Valcom world, the hell homeworld, the hysteria homeworld. There's also similar like there's 7 levels of hell, there's 7 high courts and Prithian. Like we've talked about the fucking weirdness of the maps, right?

1:54:24 Like, and this is obviously a precog theory. Like what if it is literally just all the same planet, just like different. It's not, it's not world traveling. It's like, it's like dimension traveling, like timeline like this is all taking place in the same place, but then there's parallel universes.

1:54:41 Basically, that's what's happening here. Well, in that so when when Bryce goes to Prythian, it's not a down, it's a yank across and in Prythian. But when Gwen is talking about Merrill's work, she says that the last realm is thought to be time. So I think there's a very real scenario where everything is on top of each other. Like we get that in a Vol and and the prison, right, like the Dust Corps, right?

1:55:05 We get like, right, an allusion to the fact that this could literally be the same place. And so I think it's very possible that it's all on top of each other, OK. OK, we really got into it this episode. Yeah, we'll have to listen back to this and maybe think about some breakouts. But Abby, what are you reading?

1:55:23 Back in Throne of glass world. So I'm reading air fire because I read Crescent City and I was like holy shit there's so many answers here. I think I just have to reread Throne of glass to basically to figure out what the fuck the valgar. So I'm reading air fire. I just started it, but as previously mentioned I will also read the spell shop when I'm done with throwing a glass because I promised I would have. Someone gave us a name and they did so I'm looking forward to that.

1:55:46 What are you reading? Yeah, I need to reread Christmas City. So I read while I was on vacation. I read I Am Pilgrim. Yeah, I need a break from fantasy. I was like fantasy out. I was like intricate plotted out. I didn't get a break from that with I Am Pilgrim, but I Am Pilgrim by Terry Hayes. I really liked it. So it's not, it's not fantasy obviously, it's more it's not even sci-fi.

1:56:11 It's just thriller like. If you liked Dan Brown's books, I think you would like I Am Pilgrim. What is it about? So the premise is hard to give without giving too much away, but basically it's about an intelligence agent AUS intelligence agent and like unwinding, you know, mysteries that really tie back into one big plot. One of my friends was saying that she like she thought the book was very patriot, which is definitely true. It tells the story of two people. One is the US intelligence agent, intelligence agent. And then another is a jihadist originally from Saudi Arabia. So like you get these two parallel stories of these two people and like how their lives like intertwine and and converge.

1:56:57 Fun. It was good. It was obviously it's mystery and fiction, so hard to go wrong. And now I need to pick up Shepherd King. But I think I'm going to read Crescent City in parallel with that. I think we're good. OK, guys, we went through a lot in this episode. We got to preserve some energy for our next one. We love you.

1:57:13 You can find us on social media, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. Dragons in the details pod is our handle. We have an e-mail address if you want to leave a longer message then can fit into dmswhichisdragonsinthedetailspod@gmail.com. And we have a Discord. Everything's LinkedIn, our BIOS. So find us on Instagram, find us on TikTok, go to the link in our bio. There's a bunch of stuff you can submit Bookrecs. You can view other people's bookrecs. We're trying to trying our best to build a fun fantasy community here on our little corner of the Internet. Anything else?

1:57:48 Nope. Love you. Bye. Thanks for listening. Love you. Bye.