Andy Lee & Bec Harding’s Royal Wedding & “Can I Crash On Your Couch?”

0:03 Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday the 19th of October. I'm Holly Wainwright.

0:10 I'm Jessie Stephens. And I'm Amelia Lester.

0:13 And here is what has made our agenda today. If I'm coming to your town, can I stay with you? The question that has obsessed the internet this week.

0:23 Plus, Alex Earle said she's never read a book and Hayley Bieber's favourite book is slightly concerning. Should we all be terrified?

0:31 And you probably saw the dramatic images over the weekend of Paris, smoke-filled streets, burning buildings.

0:37 We're going to unpack what's going on there.

0:39 But first, in case you missed it, Australia got its own royal wedding on the weekend.

0:44 We did.

0:44 Except it didn't happen on our soil. It happened in New York City. I'm talking, of course, about Andy Lee, who is one half of our Nemesis. Nemesis. Nemesis. Hamish and Andy's podcast, famously Always Right on Our Tail or Vice Versa in the Ranker. Hamish and Andy are kind of a big deal. They are. And Andy Lee married his longtime girlfriend, Rebecca Harding. I just said longtime girlfriend and I realize what a cliche that is. But in this case, it's true. They've been together 12 years, right?

1:16 Wow.

1:17 12 years, yeah. They got married in New York City, as I said.

1:21 I think they did.

1:22 They knew Australians couldn't be trusted to act cool. I think that if they married somewhere in Melbourne or wherever they're from, they knew that Australians would get all kind of flustered.

1:32 Lose their shit.

1:33 And we would, like, descend. I mean, people still, as in the paparazzi, still descended on them in New York, but I think it was always.

1:39 Going to be.

1:40 Well, yeah, New York I don't think is where you go if you're like a wallflower to get married.

1:43 Yeah, I think they still had a very fancy one, but quite small.

1:46 Yeah. So do they have a connection to New York?

1:48 Yes. And he has a business there. Called Old Mates, the pub. Have you ever been there?

1:52 No.

1:52 Okay, I really want to go, but he owns it with Hugh Jackman, Mick Fanning and Ash Barty.

1:56 Okay.

1:57 And they all have like a stake in it and I really want.

2:00 To go one day.

2:00 It's an Australian pub in New York City. Anyway, we're digressing. Unlike the last royal wedding that was held in New York City, one Taylor Swift, we did get photos. Now we know I don't really speak bride, but Beck wore a white dress. She looked absolutely gorgeous. She looked stunning. It was like, how would we describe it?

2:16 Simple?

2:16 Classic? Strapless. Like big, big, big floofy or minimalist?

2:23 Between big floofy and minimalist. Like it wasn't like princess. I've seen a lot of say yes to the dress. So let me use some words.

2:31 A-line?

2:32 No, I don't think that's right. I think it was very classic. It was very classic. It is really quite understated, very simple, absolutely gorgeous, very clean girl, like hair.

2:42 Half a pony.

2:43 Absolutely gorgeous.

2:44 Stunning.

2:44 Anyway, we are not, as we say, fashion experts about bridal matters, but I am mad with them. I have a bone to pick. I'm very happy for them, but I'm also mad. I have a bone to pick. Do you want to know why?

2:55 Yes, please, explain.

2:56 Cast your mind back to 2023. On this podcast, we discussed this. But in 2023, Andy Lee posted a beautiful picture of him and Beck in New York City, obviously somewhere they have a strong connection with. He also posted one that was like a throwback, you know, like a, and he said, there are nine years between these pictures.

3:14 This one was taken, blah, blah. This one was taken last week. And the comments overwhelmingly were engagement rings. And they just were like, put a ring on it, mate. What are you waiting for, mate?

3:27 Every photo she posted, if her left hand was not in the centre of the photo, it was like, why are you hiding your left hand? Is there a ring on it? Like people became quite obsessed with them getting married.

3:36 People became absolutely obsessed. And I wrote a hot take at the time because I don't really do that so much anymore about Celebrity Matters, but I was moved. To write a hot take about the pity we throw at happy couples like this relationship can't possibly be real. These two can't possibly be into each other because they're not engaged or married. They've just been together for, at that point, nine years.

3:57 Okay.

3:58 Were you writing about Beck and Andy or were you writing about Holly and Brent?

4:01 Well, it very much struck a nerve because Beck sent me a message about that post and thanked me for writing it.

4:08 So you're upset you weren't invited to the wedding?

4:10 Well, obviously, obviously, I'm upset that I wasn't invited, but I'll let that go because we have never met. But I remember at the time, this poor woman was getting absolutely smashed because they were like, why won't he marry you? Why won't he marry you? And my article was about like, why as a culture do we not take relationships seriously unless they are blessed by marriage? Anyway, that whole experience meant that obviously I thought that Beck and Andy and I and Brent, we all had something in common. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

4:39 Can I ask some more questions about the wedding?

4:41 Yes.

4:41 Understanding how disappointed it is that they got married. Who else was there? Okay.

4:46 Hugh Jackman, but notably Sutton Foster, not in attendance. I think Sutton was teaching a dance class. I went back on that. I did some research. Who else was there? Obviously Hamish, Blake.

4:56 Yes.

4:57 Hamish, I'm imagining... did a speech and I think it would have been a great speech.

5:00 It would have been very funny.

5:01 I wish that that was recorded. He would have hit all the notes. It would have been so funny. So good.

5:06 I think personally, I reckon they did an amazing job of celebrity weddings of like balancing the public and the private.

5:12 Yeah.

5:12 Because after the Taylor Swift wedding and the fact that we all knew it was happening and there were fireworks and all the things, but no one ever got to see it. There's been a lot of debate about whether or not celebrities should share their wedding. They were like quite happily posing for Pat Pictures in New York. They weren't hiding the fact they were getting married. And then they released their photos like I think four days after the event.

5:31 And now the guests have started to drop them.

5:33 Yeah.

5:33 There was one guest in attendance who had been at Taylor Swift's wedding and was at Andy Lee's wedding.

5:39 Who was that?

5:40 Nikki Glaser.

5:40 Oh, stop it.

5:41 She was there. She was at Taylor Swift's. Can you imagine her calendar for this year? She's like, I'm going to go to Taylor Swift's. and then Australia's Taylor Swift version of this wedding. And I'm going to go and see both in New York.

5:53 Wow.

5:53 And so she was in attendance at both.

5:55 I think she's a good wedding guest. You can just tell.

5:57 Imagine, though, you get up to do your speech. Imagine you're Annie's mum, right? And you're not someone who's on a microphone for a living and you've got to present a bit of a stand-up gig in front of Nikki Glaser.

6:08 Wow.

6:08 Really.

6:09 I'd just like to put it out there. If any more long-term couples are thinking of tying the knot, I'm looking at you, Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell. Give me a call.

6:18 Give me a call.

6:19 Give me a heads up so I can prepare my hot take for the next day.

6:24 France is on fire. You may have seen the photos over the weekend. Very dramatic images, grand old buildings, set alight, burned to the ground, smoke filling those beautiful streets of Paris.

6:35 And even.

6:36 In a country known for its protests, these scenes seemed really bad. And I have to admit, at first I wasn't paying attention to all of this because these protests actually started last month. And at the time I saw the news reports about protests in Paris and I thought, what's new? People in Paris and in France are always protesting. Famously, they had a very famous protest back in the day that led to the French Revolution. So I just figured they were doing more of the same French business. But the photos from this weekend indicated to me that things had really escalated. I'm sure you saw them too. They're very dramatic. So things did kick off last month and what happened was high school students took to the streets

7:17 and they were protesting what they said was declining school quality. So they were saying that the government-run schools had fallen into disrepair. The buildings were crumbling, the teachers were overworked and the admissions for university were very unfair to poorer students. And so that's what they initially started protesting. And everyone thought, yeah, they kind of have a point here because the French government, like a lot of Western governments or like almost all Western governments, doesn't really have a lot of money left.

7:47 The coffers are running dry and the schools are not being funded like they used to be. And then lots of other people joined in the protests. There were trade unions, teachers, farmers, and the protests sort of broadened out to become about cost of living.

8:02 And it wasn't just Paris, was it? It was like a few other places in France.

8:05 Yeah, they're nationwide. And people are saying they're the biggest protests in decades. And these protests were by and large peaceful. Now, there were thousands of people arrested, so they were contentious, but by and large peaceful. Some kids were actually injured, some of the protesting kids. But it wasn't until this weekend that things got, I would say, ugly. Because what happened this weekend is people The protests had spread all across France and then as often happens in protest situations, luchas got involved.

8:37 Because I saw shops that had just been like windows destroyed, like small businesses completely decimated over the weekend.

8:45 And so what you're saying about the protests have been peaceful, you mean sort of up until this point, the vision that we're seeing now that's all over everybody's phones of the fires and everything is from this weekend when things seem to have escalated to a chaotic level.

8:58 And the news reports I've read say that in Paris in particular, you'd have one part of the city that still had a peaceful protest of this coalition of the unionists and the teachers and the farmers and the students. And then in another part of Paris, you'd have the looters, these masked looters going into shops. They estimate about 1,500 shops nationwide were looted. It really reminded me of the dynamic in the U.S. that I observed during the summer of 2020 when the Black Lives Matter protests kicked off.

9:27 Those were peaceful protests all across the country. But running parallel to that in some cities, in some cases, were opportunistic looters. Sadly, politicians often seize on those isolated incidents of looting and sort of put that behaviour onto the peaceful protesters to serve their own political means.

9:47 And in terms of images that go viral... And in terms of.

9:49 Yes.

9:50 an image of a peaceful protester isn't necessarily something that you're going to see everywhere on your TikTok feed, but... a monument being defaced is something. And I think that because Paris is known as having such a rich um you know cultural history and being so central to democracy and it's quite a symbolic city in a lot of ways to watch the monuments um a monument in particular I know uh you know, hundreds of years old be irreparably damaged.

10:18 Oh, and it is scary.

10:19 I don't want to diminish the impact of feeling like society is spinning out of control in these cases. There were a number of people interviewed on the streets of Paris that I read news reports about who were saying, this is the worst I've ever seen protests. I'm a Parisian. I am used to people marching in the streets. But what is happening here is really feeling out of control.

10:39 And Emmanuel Macron, who is the president of France, he said... Everyone needs to calm down. I'm going to try and lower petrol prices. Now, side note, that's not going to happen because the Iran war means that he can't unilaterally lower petrol prices. That's what's really sort of a little bit vexing about it. The thing that people are protesting in France right now is something that people all over the world are feeling. Prices are too high. Petrol is too expensive. Schools and education are being undervalued. These are familiar concerns to Australians, I would say.

11:10 Yeah, they absolutely are.

11:10 And the difference is that the French are people who are used to getting out there in the streets and complaining about things.

11:18 And also used to public systems like education being relatively well funded.

11:22 Yes.

11:22 Right.

11:23 I'm seeing the images we're talking about being... Co-opted, I would say, by some who have got particular points to prove. Cherry-picked to represent certain demographics and being used. Donald Trump has said, France is burning.

11:38 No, he has. He's weighed in.

11:41 He's weighed in. I'm also seeing a lot of AI imagery. It's really interesting now when big news flashpoints happen around the world today. sort of seeing on your feed? Because as you've said, there is looting, Amelia, this weekend, but I've seen a lot of AI imagery of looting of luxury shops that is not real.

12:00 So there are these monuments, I've seen images of certain monuments on fire that aren't actually on fire. To be clear, the town hall image that we're seeing is True.

12:08 It feels like an event that we're all going to be hearing about a lot to push particular ideological causes.

12:17 Because even Trump, the other part of his statement was linking the unrest to the immigration of people from an entirely different world. There is, and I think this is important to say at this point, French authorities have not linked any of this to immigration. That is a narrative that's being pushed and there is no evidence for that at the moment. And a police officer was also, a 22-year-old police officer was killed, so it's also been lethal in that way. Someone else had a cardiac arrest. I think that's being investigated, but.

12:46 It's... I think part of why it's so liable to this kind of... misreading is because A, the complaints are universal right now. So everyone around the world is feeling what instigated the protests. So that's of interest to people. And B, as you alluded to before, Jessie, Paris and France are both symbols of beauty and elegance. And to see these scenes of such chaos and violence in a place that we associate with beauty is very jarring. Now, this has led to some very tone-deaf incidents on the internet.

13:25 I did see that one American influencer recounted being stuck in the Chanel store near the Champs-Élysées as these protests were taking place. and then the sales assistant and her had to shelter in the Chanel store. I'm sure it was very scary, but perhaps now is not the time to highlight your new Chanel purchases, which she did in the next slide.

13:46 Yes, there's a lot of, I think, kind of in terms of class, in terms of the cosmopolitan, and that's one of the, so beautiful about Paris is that it's a cosmopolitan of different people in different classes and students and lots of people. I think that there's a discomfort there because of the struggles that so many French people are genuinely facing right now.

14:08 It's clear that temperatures are running very high.

14:12 I've got another piece of world news for you. Pope Leo is on the mend. I'm worried about Pope Leo. No, he's doing fine.

14:18 He left hospital yesterday after he had surgery to remove a tumour on his lung. This seemed to come out of the blue. People were very surprised.

14:27 But he seems well and he addressed a crowd in Rome. Oh, good, good.

14:31 He's obviously feeling well enough to address crowds. The New York Times called his voice firm and confident in that address. I love that description because I read another story about Pope Leo and what he did while.

14:44 He was in hospital.

14:45 And I like to imagine he used that same firm and confident voice during it. What happened was he was in hospital and three days after his surgery, he fielded a call from the last person you would ever want to get a call from three days after major surgery. And that is Russian President Vladimir Putin. What are Putin and the Pope doing on the phone? First of all, what I can't get to the bottom of is who called who in this situation.

15:07 Maybe Vlad was worried and he wanted to offer his speedy recovery vibes.

15:13 In which case I would just tell my aides, of which would be presumably around my bedside.

15:17 I'm not up to speaking right now. But of course, Pope Leo took the call.

15:21 What's even more incredible is maybe Pope Leo decided to call Vladimir Putin. I mean, either way, this story is kind of amazing. But Leo really told Putin off. He said he's had enough of his excuses. He told him that he's sick of the war, he wants the war to end, and he wants medical and food assistance to enter into a Ukrainian town that is currently under Russian siege.

15:42 He did this three days after major surgery.

15:44 There's just like a stage you get to when you've been sick, when you've just had it and Putin calls you and you go, I'm actually not going to play your games, Putin. I'm going to tell you what I really think because life is too short and I've had it with your bullshit, which I really, someone needed to say it.

16:01 Is it rude to ask your friend if you can stay at their house while you're visiting the place where they live? I'm asking because this man has thoughts.

16:10 I saw a video of somebody saying it's rude to ask your friends to stay with them if you're going to be in their city. Like if you're coming for the Harry Styles concert in New York, it's rude to ask one of your friends if you can crash at their place while you're in town. And my thing is, and this is subjective, we don't all have to agree.

16:28 God forbid I find out my friends came to my city and they booked the holiday and express without even talking to me. I'm not going to promise that you can always stay at my place, but you didn't even ask me. You went straight to the devil tree?

16:44 That is an Instagram user called notwildlyn, and that post has had more than 40,000 shares. And the comments, as I'm sure you can imagine, have all kinds of opinions about that. First of all, where do we stand on this?

16:58 I like his opinion. I think there are sub-rules.

17:03 You like his opinion. Do you want someone to ask this at your house?

17:06 Depends on who the someone is.

17:07 Yeah.

17:08 I think that, and this is the thing, I think it's about closeness. I think it's about how long. I think it's about the last time you stayed in my house. I think it's about whether I have space.

17:16 Context, context, context. What about you, Amelia?

17:19 Yeah.

17:19 You lived in New York for a long time. Did you often have Aussies going like, can I come and stay with you?

17:24 Not often because I think they knew I didn't have a large space I didn't.

17:29 Have a large abode. But I think it's a fascinating question.

17:34 When I went, I visited family in Rhode Island a few years ago, and we stayed with them. And I think that there were a few things. Didn't have kids. I think if you're going to go and stay with them with kids, I think that's just a big, big ask. And I think it was three nights. They had the space. And you also, part of the rule is you have to offer to either make or order or pay for meals.

17:59 Yeah, I think I agree with you. There are lots of sub-rules. But I think what's fascinating about what this video went on to say is he said, we've all become so worried about overstepping other people's boundaries and about the rules of friendship that we think it would be an enormous imposition to say, can I stay with you while I'm in town to see Harry Styles? That's true.

18:19 I think it's changed.

18:21 Yeah, and his point is like... that's what friends are for like if your friends should be able to say well no you can't because I've got kids and they've got to go to bed at seven and that would be hard or I haven't got room or whatever but the idea that you should never even ask to step into someone else's house.

18:36 Well what I'm what do you think interested in too though is he's saying it's a social faux pas for me to I have friends that are in New York I have friends that are in London if I went to any of those places in the next few years, which will be physically impossible. But let's imagine if I went, then I would not ask to stay with them. And he's saying he would find that offensive. And that worries me.

18:58 But what about the idea of refusal can offend? Like, aren't we also seeking to avoid those awkward situations where someone does have to tell us, actually, you know, you can't stay? Like, I found that argument that he's pointing forward convincing except for the notion that it's fine to tell your friend, no, you can't stay.

19:16 That's awkward.

19:16 So this is interesting because there's some etiquette suggestions in the comments about the right way to do it. I have to be on the record. I do this all the time now. Like I stay with my friend in Sydney all the time. I'm not here to see her. I'm here to work or whatever. But I do that all the time.

19:30 Excuse me.

19:30 I do it in London all the time too to my friends who live in London. When I'm in London, I just go stay with them.

19:35 All right.

19:36 Bye. the person in Sydney is your best, best, like one of your closest friends, right? I just think I'm interested in where the line is. Like, can it just be a casual friend? Can it be, like, I think that family, there's a line. with family where if there is any extended family, then you've got to, you've got to have them.

19:55 It's a bit of a flow chart.

19:56 And I would say the first question on the flow chart is, does this person have a guest room?

20:01 Okay.

20:02 Because I'm wondering about your London friends. Presumably they don't have huge mansions. They do have a spare room though. If you have a spare room, let's have the conversation. If they don't have a spare room, I'm thinking twice about asking.

20:14 But when I went last time to stay with them, we all went and someone slept on the couch, someone slept on the floor.

20:23 Meaning you and your children.

20:24 Yeah, we all just bunked in.

20:25 Did you think at all about whether that was too much? I would think it would be really.

20:29 No, because again, really good friends. And they, I think, so this is interesting. See if you agree with this. This is how you test the water so that you don't end up in the confrontation. So you're coming to Sydney to see Harry Styles, right? I'm coming from where I live or, you know, Canberra or somewhere. What you do is you say, I'm going to be in Sydney.

20:48 And are you open for a visit, like a catch up? Or you say, I'm going to be in Sydney. Do you have a recommendation of somewhere I can stay?

20:57 No, that's bullshit. You open the door.

21:01 I was like, excuse me, a recommendation of where you should stay. I live in Sydney. I don't have a recommendation of where you should stay in Sydney.

21:09 And they know it.

21:10 That's not fair. You say, where do you think I should stay? And then they might say, you can stay with us. Or they might say, You should stay out at Olympic Park near the stadium.

21:18 No, that's a dance I'm not doing.

21:20 I don't know.

21:22 Someone who lives in Sydney doesn't know about hotels in Sydney by definition.

21:26 They know about areas. They know. If someone said to me, where should I stay in Sydney if I'm going to go to a Harry Styles concert, I'd say you should stay out there.

21:33 You know who else knows about areas? Google Maps. This is the problem, right?

21:37 So we are now so boundaried that we're like, don't even ask. Don't even ask me.

21:41 No, I'm not necessarily saying that, but I'm saying that that question feels disingenuous.

21:46 It does. And if you're asking me that question, I'm assuming that you want to stay in a hotel because this.

21:51 Is the thing too. Oh, no. That's so true. This is the thing too.

21:54 It's like some people don't want to have a sleepover.

21:57 Yes, that's so true.

21:57 And they don't want to stay with people and wake up in the morning.

22:00 So then you're just getting into a dance.

22:02 But then they would never open that conversation. They would say to you, Jessie, I'm going to be in Sydney. I've booked into the hotel at blah, blah. Do you want to have lunch? Do you want to catch up?

22:12 Oh, I'd be so, I'd be annoyed at that too.

22:14 It's like, you didn't want to just ask me first? Do I have bed bugs? What's wrong with my face? I'm coming to Sydney. What do I say to you?

22:24 What do you think they should say? One of your American friends is coming to Sydney.

22:28 Yes.

22:28 One person.

22:29 I had an American friend come to Sydney, one person, a delightfully footloose and fancy free child free woman.

22:37 Great guest. Great guest.

22:39 And she said to me, I'm coming to Sydney. should I stay with you? Should I stay somewhere else? And I said, you know what? I don't think you want to stay with me. I have a two bedroom flat. I have two children, which you don't.

22:53 Want to be around in the morning.

22:55 Here is an Airbnb next to my flat that you should book into.

23:00 Perfect.

23:01 Yeah.

23:02 I think that's, and I'm not going to be offended by that.

23:04 I think that's... But if she had come to me and said, hey, Amelia, I booked the park high.

23:08 When can we have lunch? I would be seriously missed. Would you?

23:12 Really?

23:12 Yes.

23:13 Really?

23:13 Oh, my goodness. This is exactly the problem this guy is spelling out.

23:17 You wouldn't be if I came to your part of the world and said I booked into some hotel and I didn't even ask if I should stay with you?

23:24 No, I wouldn't be because I would just assume... Back to that point about some people, like you can tell if someone's the kind of person who will sleep on your couch or whether someone's a person who'd rather stay in the park higher, right? So I would be fine. If they're park higher people, I don't want you to come to my house. You know what I'm saying?

23:39 The house is not the park higher.

23:40 Yeah.

23:41 So I think that's fine. I think the problem here is we're all, and this is what he was saying, is we're all tiptoeing around offending. Like if you ask, it's offensive. If you don't ask, it's offensive. It's like, why can't we just be... I don't know. I'm just trying to think. I think I would do the dance.

23:58 I think I would do the dance. I think I'd say, I'm coming to Sydney. I'm going to be there next week.

24:02 Yeah.

24:03 Do you want to catch up? And then they might say, why don't you stay with us?

24:08 I like, do you want to catch up? That's the first script I've heard here that I approve of. Do you want to catch up?

24:14 Excellent. I think this is a generational story, and I also think it is about the size of our places, is that my– Parents who, you know, are not Elon Musk, they're not loaded, but they have a, the way that the house is in the suburbs is that if any cousin is in Sydney, they know that they will have a couch, they will have somewhere to sleep. For most people who live not just in Sydney, but all over Australia, that's not necessarily the case. And it also depends on age, certainly not before the age of 30.

24:45 Yeah.

24:46 For example.

24:47 So I think that it's almost like this generation has got the memo, there will be nowhere for me to.

24:52 Stay, so I won't ask. But also don't you think under the age of 30, you can sleep on the floor, you don't care. Like I spent a lot of my young early 20s sleeping on people's floors, on people's couches, on people's pull-out beds. I didn't care if they were walking through in the morning to get ready for work.

25:07 Like nobody cared. But then as you get more grown up, everybody gets a little more like– I'm worried about how comfortable.

25:15 The bed will be.

25:15 What time do you get up in the morning? Like, you know, we all kind of, we become more high maintenance.

25:20 That's so true, Holly.

25:21 I remember that there was a time when I was sort of sleeping on couches when I went to weddings because I didn't have enough money and it's expensive to buy a plane ticket and then a wedding present and then a dress and then the Spanx and blah, blah, blah. So then there was a time, I think I was about 32 and I asked a friend if I could stay with her parents at their childhood home.

25:42 And the answer was politely, no.

25:45 Oh.

25:45 You're done. You need to book a hotel.

25:47 And were you offended?

25:48 No.

25:49 Or did you get it? I got it.

25:51 I was like, I was pushing it a bit at 32. Like, I get it.

25:56 And it was her parents' place.

25:59 The polite no was, grow up, Amelia.

26:02 It's like, fair, fair.

26:06 And also the house guest contract says you need to be out of the house. Like this is not a hotel. There's no lounging. Like if you're staying over, you're aware of the fact that you've got to get up early, ideally when your host gets up. You've got to get out of the house and then you're not going to come back until the evening.

26:22 This is the distinction of why this is interesting is like if they're coming to visit you, that's different. Long lost friend who wants to come and hang out with you, that's different. If they're coming because they've got to be in Sydney for something.

26:33 Yes.

26:34 That's a different thing right then that's when these guest rules definitely apply yes but i want no interference in my life and we will have maybe one dinner together.

26:43 Or so when i so here's an example from my own life when i um do find myself in new york maybe once a year i'm generally there for work and i have a friend who until recently did not have children and lived in a small apartment, but with a room that could be conceivably called a guest room. And I would stay with her.

27:03 Close friend?

27:04 Close friend.

27:05 And that was really not just a hotel, but a chance to truly spend some quality unstructured time together, which I know you've talked about recently on the show, how important it is with your close friends to not always be doing something together. Now she has a child. I'm not staying there anymore. I'm not asking her. And I understand that those times have gone.

27:25 Yeah, emotionally intelligent. To the rules, I think you're right, Jessie, you need to have– I think also there's a cultural thing here in that when you were a kid, did your family just go and stay with people? Because we did. We just would turn up somewhere and stay there.

27:37 I don't think there were hotels in the 80s.

27:39 No, I don't think there were. I don't think I certainly never stayed in one. There were six of us. That would have been so rude.

27:43 That's true.

27:44 There's too many of you.

27:45 But you have to have a time limit, a very clear time limit, obviously, which is why backpackers are always a worry because you never know what's going to happen. I'm in the generation– I'm at the age now where my friends– from England's children and nieces and nephews and stuff might come. Luckily, no one wants to come down to where I live.

28:00 Some people say that houseguests should never stay longer than two nights.

28:03 That's it, right? So two or three nights I think is the limit. To your point before, Amelia, keep yourselves busy, keep yourselves out.

28:11 Yep.

28:12 And then I think, even though I think it's not about an exchange... There should be some recognition. A bottle of wine.

28:19 I once had a friend who stayed with me in New York, actually, when I didn't have a guest room, but we were close friends. She left me an orchid and a bottle of Australian wine. And I said, that is the perfect host gift.

28:29 That is stunning.

28:30 I killed the orchid, but it was so nice to have for four days.

28:32 Just a question, Ari Linnan. Are we stripping our own bed in the washing machine? Am I then drying it?

28:40 No.

28:41 Okay, no.

28:41 I'm just putting it in the washing machine?

28:43 Is that what you're thinking?

28:43 What do you think, Colleen?

28:44 I think you should ask because not everybody wants you to strip the bed and stuff.

28:48 Is that because they're kind of using it for the next test? I'm totally speaking for Chloe. Some people don't.

28:57 Want you to strip the bed. I reckon you should, I think, ask. Do you want me to strip the bed? Do you want me to just pull it back? Do you want me to throw it in the wash? Like, I think ask.

29:07 Okay.

29:07 I think.

29:08 I reckon the thing here is like we do probably need to loosen up about just asking what we mean, even though I'm the one who says call up and say.

29:16 Can you recommend a good hotel?

29:20 After the break, the top 100 Australian books have been released and there is definitely a bit of controversy. A few weeks ago, 25-year-old Alex Earle, she is an influencer. And when I say influencer, she has 6 million followers. So she is a woman of influence. She's an it girl. She's someone that everyone around the age of 25 would know um she told interview magazine that she's never read a book and then she followed the statement up with like maybe dr.

29:48 Zeus i'm i'm trying not to judge okay that sounds you can hear is me trying not to.

29:53 Judge Then a month ago, Hayley and Justin Bieber were being interviewed for a different magazine and they were asked about their favourite book. And Hayley's answer received a bit of backlash. She said, as a kid, Angelina Ballerina. For people who don't know that book, it's a children's book. It's like saying Peter Rabbit or Possum Magic or something like that. These admissions have been used alongside extensive evidence that we are moving into a post-literate society. So Rose Horowitz, she wrote in The Atlantic that the end of reading is here. She said that in 2025, more Americans placed a bet than read a book. And in 2022, fewer than half of all adults reported having read a book of any kind. Which brings me to a list that

30:42 came out just over the weekend. It is the top 100 Australian books listed. In an unforgivable oversight, neither my books nor Holly's were on it.

30:51 That's really rude.

30:51 So we're all going to look at the list with a grain of salt, okay? It's obviously not right, but it's a list.

30:55 I mean, how seriously can we take it?

30:57 We can't.

30:57 We can't.

30:58 But it is a list and we should talk about it. There have been a few controversies other than the fact we're not on it. Amelia. Three cookbooks on the list. Discuss, how do you feel about that? Yes, there were three cookbooks in the list. The top one was the Australian Women's Weekly Children's Birthday Cake Book. This is the one that has the iconic duck cake in it.

31:18 We own it, of course.

31:20 56 was The Cook's Companion by Stephanie Alexander, a very serious cookbook. And then 96, I don't think anyone was surprised hearing that cookbooks were on the list to hear that this one was on it. It was Nagi's Recipe Tin Eats Dinner.

31:32 Yes, Mia, having discovered that book last week, must have contributed.

31:36 Must have tipped it over.

31:39 And people are a little angry about this on the internet.

31:44 This is the first time that they've done this list and cookbooks have appeared on it.

31:49 They did it back in 2022 and there were no cookbooks. And now there are three. What do you think?

31:53 Because a cookbook isn't for most people what you get in at night, rugged up and you read page one to three to 50. Do we think it constitutes as a book or is it more of a guide?

32:03 I'm really torn because on the one hand, I understand that cookbooks are great feats, great technical feats and often very beautifully written and illustrated and they're beautiful objects. And I don't want to be judging what people are reading, because as you say, we are in a literacy crisis. If you identify with a cookbook, if that's what you want to spend your time reading, then that's more power to you. But I guess on the other hand, I have to admit, this is probably where I ultimately come down.

32:31 I feel that a cookbook is not the same as a book book in that the things that we say that reading imbues in us, a sense of empathy, a sense of wonder, a sense of curiosity, maybe even like understanding a sustained argument in the case of a piece of non-fiction you're not getting any of that from a cookbook.

32:51 She clearly hasn't had nagi's cowboy chicken.

32:54 Holy what do you think i'm curious what you think on that.

32:58 So this is a list voted for by abc listeners of radio national right that traditionally skews older um middle class so like um tertiary educated they're kind of the people who and they they have obviously Radio National have hit on the fact that this poll goes nuts they're trying to do a triple J hottest 100 but for Radio National so if the criteria is just the Australian book I love the most and you choose Dinner by Nagi All power to you.

33:35 Okay, well, and how do you feel about Possum Magic? Because Hayley Bieber would be, she'd be like, oh, that one looks good.

33:42 Personally, I think it's fine. Like, I think what's interesting about this list is the variety because there are quite a few kids' books.

33:49 Children's books, yeah.

33:50 There are three cookbooks as discussed. I mean, I wouldn't vote for a cookbook. Obviously, I wouldn't because if I had to pick my one favourite Australian book of all time, I'm not.

33:59 Does it make you feel a tiny bit sad?

34:01 No.

34:02 No, because there are 97 other books on the list. Like I think if the top 10 was dominated by cookbooks, that's a story. You know what I mean? But I think the top 10 was dominated by the heavy hitters of Australian fiction. And I also think that those– Tim Winton was number one.

34:17 Yep.

34:18 Trent Dalton was number three. Our friend Sally Hepworth made it in there. With Mad Mabel. Which is amazing because the thing about the best Australian book of all time– These books, a lot of people are voting for books that were written 40 years ago. And some people are voting for books they read last year, like Mad Mabel, like Charlotte McConaughey's Wild Dark Shore. I think that is amazing.

34:42 I saw it broken down by state. So New South Wales was very much Cloud Street by... Even though it's a WA book, that's interesting. A WA also had that. And then Queensland, you'll never guess what their number one book was. It was obviously Trent Dalton.

34:57 What was Victoria? Good question.

35:00 I can't remember what they might have been, Cloud Street too.

35:02 There was a bit of controversy about also the recency bias of it, this idea that people are more inclined to weigh new books rather than understanding the value of old books. So the oldest book on the list was from 1874. It was For the Term of His Natural Life by Marcus Clarke. But there were a bunch of recent books, as you mentioned, Holly, including also in the top 10, Jane Harper's The Dry.

35:26 Not so recent now, but definitely contemporary fiction. Brilliant book.

35:30 And there was a sense that people, some people felt that there's a lack of collective memory at work there because we're all just sort of reading the most recent book that we've read becomes the best Australian book of all time.

35:42 Yeah.

35:42 And I always find this hard.

35:43 Like I couldn't submit my top 10.

35:45 I couldn't do it.

35:46 But I saw that.

35:46 What's your number one?

35:49 I find it really hard because I was looking through it and I was thinking there are books on there that absolutely would be in my top ten. Secret River would 100% be up there for me. Kate Grenville. Boy Swallows Universe would be. I absolutely love that book.

36:03 I thought The Dry was one of the best books I've read.

36:05 The Slap by Christos Tiokas. I would vote for that in a hot minute. And those are, you're right, recency bias. I'd probably put some Helen Garner in there too. I was glad to see that.

36:16 She made the list.

36:17 Yes, I was glad to see that. Charlotte Wood made the list. Leon Moriarty's Big Little Lies made the list because to be honest, I had to search for that because I was like, if it isn't there, I discredit this list.

36:25 I absolutely loved to see that because I think sometimes in Australia, we want to believe that the most relevant stories that we tell about ourselves are about this mythical outback idea. And now there are many people who live in regional Australia and grapple with nature at its harshest out there. But I also think that we're the most suburban society in the world. And this is why, for instance, my favourite Australian film of all time is Muriel's Wedding, because it encapsulates suburban life and the darkness of suburban life.

36:56 And I love that Leanne Moriarty, who writes about these less prestigious topics like the inner life of women in the suburbs, that book's getting recognised.

37:04 I know, I was very happy about that. But back to the idea about people aren't reading and it being kind of cool for an Alex Earle to say, I've never read a book. She's not the first celebrity to say that, by the way. My great friend, Victoria Beckham, once said, and I may mangle this, but that she'd never read a book she hadn't written.

37:23 I can't, no, that's my number one life rule. When I see a book published by someone I know for certain has never read a book, I go, that is against the law of the world.

37:33 You'll never guess some other famous people who don't read, Kanye and Donald Trump. So, I mean, the company we're keeping.

37:39 Melania has also said she only reads executive orders, she doesn't read.

37:42 Which is really bothersome to me because I read Melania Trump's book.

37:46 So you made the effort. I've read more books by her than she's read.

37:50 It's interesting that, you know, those stats are scary about more Americans have placed a bet than read a book in the last year. But then in wanting to not be too doomy about it, I think that the popularity of a poll like this, right, which obviously the ABC have decided is a tentpole for them. They're going to do it every year. They're going to roll it out.

38:08 They're going to do, I think the last one they did, which I think Trent Dalton won, was like books that have been published since 2000. And this was all time. And they're going to find it'll be books written by a man with shaggy hair who lives in Brisbane. But like, it'll be, you know, because they know that readers are really engaged and writers festivals attendance are going up and up and up. It feels a little bit like a lot of people don't read at all, but the people who read are reading hard. And also genre fiction as it's called, which is... And romanticism, you know, crime, all of those things are still selling really well. And children's books are selling really well because parents are worried about

38:49 their kids not reading.

38:50 I'd love to talk a bit about the presence of children's books on this list. Another slight controversy. But for my part, I was delighted to see children's books on the list. The highest ranked children's book was Tomorrow When the War Began by John Marsden.

39:02 Which is, I distinctly remember being a sort of early adolescent maybe.

39:05 Yep.

39:06 And that getting me into reading during my adolescence. And we know how important reading as a teenager is for setting you up for life in terms of that being a habit, but also reading being like neuroplasticity and you being able to do it.

39:21 Absolutely. Cosign that.

39:22 And I think what makes that book series by John Marsden and in fact, John Marsden's whole um collective work so Australian is that he never shies away from tackling really big topics and treating children like they're sophisticated people in the world who can understand big topics.

39:41 It was an ambitious book and yeah it was brilliant I want to say, though, because I know there'll be parents listening to this who are pulling their hair out trying to get their kids to read.

39:49 And sometimes it feels like everybody's telling us how important it is. And of course, it is like it's inarguable, but it is also incredibly hard. As soon as they get autonomy, you can read all the books you want to to a three-year-old, you know what I mean, or an eight-year-old. But as soon as they get some autonomy over their time, realistically, there has never been more competition for that attention. I read a lot when I was a kid, but when I think about it, what else was I going to do?

40:12 You had the cereal box or a book, so you picked a book.

40:14 Exactly. There was TV, but it was only on, like children's TV was only on Saturday mornings or after school. There was not anything like the competition there is now. And we know that it's the best competition. form of defense against ai and we know it's the best form of defense you know against people retreating to bubbles but if you're finding it hard to get your teenagers to read mate i i relate i'm a writer and i have my house is full of books it makes no difference my daughter will still be like but i don't.

40:39 Want to that's why we have to make it cool and that's why i'm annoyed at hayley babar.

40:43 But it's actually even hard to for adults to pick up books with all the demands on our time and I know when I'm feeling at my most anxious and stressed, that is the exact moment when I should be picking up a book and calming down at the end of the day. That's when I literally cannot do it because I'm too stressed. My brain's in too many places. So I decide to doom scroll instead. It's sort of a vicious cycle.

41:04 I agree. But I think because I'm exactly the same. And when I can't focus, I know that's a warning sign.

41:09 Yeah.

41:11 I think we should counteract our Hayley Bieber and our Alex Earl with Dua Lipa.

41:15 Yes.

41:15 Who is a very aspirational celebrity with a very, who's gorgeous to look at and all the things that TikTok and everything loves, but who has a book club. And sometimes the culture is sneery about that and goes like, oh, look at you pretending that you read. I like the more aspirational, you know, generationally appropriate people that are saying that books are great. Like happy days.

41:36 Natalie Portman's got one too. Yes.

41:38 Bring it on. Outlouders, we'll be back in your ears tomorrow. If you're wondering why there was an extra episode yesterday, the three of us were all on it.

41:45 Oh, yeah.

41:46 It was a deep dive into perimenopause.

41:48 I had a realization in real time that I may be older than I think.

41:51 Oh.

41:53 Because it was about lots of different generations talking about that topic, people who'd been through it, people who knew nothing about it.

41:59 No, what's perimenopause?

42:01 Critically, Amelia does not identify as perimenopause.

42:05 But if you see that in your feed and it sounds like something that might speak to you, I will shout it out. It was the three of us plus Lee Campbell and Mia Friedman and it was a very, really interesting conversation.

42:15 Yeah, we kicked things off by speaking about our menstrual cycles and things went from there.

42:18 Yeah.

42:20 We love you out loud as we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

42:23 Bye.

42:24 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.