The New Ways To Be Rude & “How Much Do You Earn?”

0:03 Guys, Halloween is coming up and I just need to put something out there that I need some help with.

0:07 Because now you have small children, you have to pay attention.

0:10 Okay.

0:11 I have probably just this one year where I can dress my twins as anything I want.

0:15 And it's a novelty and it's fun.

0:17 Yes.

0:17 And I'm brimming with ideas. Do I do Timon and Pumbaa from The Lion King?

0:25 Yes.

0:25 Do I do Hansel and Gretel? Do I do Jack and Jill? Do I do Phil and Lil from the Rugrats?

0:30 What do we think?

0:32 Like there's so many opportunities for fun, boy-girl twin, like seven, eight-month-old twins.

0:39 Oh, my God, this is going to be the cutest thing that ever happened.

0:42 The Outlouders, can you just jump into the Outloud Facebook group and just give me some ideas because I just want to think of something really cute. um maybe get Luna involved because she kind of wants to go as Elsa so it's like it's Harry Olaf yeah exactly yeah Olaf and the reindeer yes exactly and Margot can be the little reindeer like yeah oh this is so fun it's so fun I'm so excited project I know we've only got a few weeks the people who care about Halloween like young people who are going to wild parties and parents who have to dress up their children.

1:11 Yeah no one else.

1:12 Cares I'm edging towards the years when I don't have to care anymore, but I've had a lot of years of that.

1:18 Yeah.

1:19 Oh, Mary-Kate and Ashley.

1:21 Oh.

1:21 Mary-Kate and Ashley. Oh, my God. Harry and Ashley.

1:25 Oh, my God.

1:25 Harry's going to love that. Oh, tell us out loud. That is so cool.

1:30 All right, let's go.

1:32 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what we've been actually talking about on Friday, the 16th of October. Now, if you have eagle ears, I'm Holly Wainwright, by the way, you will note that one thing Emily Vernon is back.

1:46 My main show.

1:47 Very excited.

1:48 I was really nervous.

1:49 Were you?

1:51 I was like, can I talk? Do I remember how to talk? I was talking to the quickie girls and I'm like, how do we talk again?

1:56 This is because you went, you saved the world and then you came back.

1:59 Yeah.

1:59 You've been in Cambodia.

2:01 We're going to hear all about it later on. Welcome back. We love you. Thank you.

2:04 Thank you.

2:04 We've got some good things for you on our show today. On what date would you tell someone your number? As in? how much you earn. Would you ever? And would you ask?

2:16 Plus, from a viral speech to building houses to three things you should say before bed, we have a range of different type of recommendations this week.

2:25 Very different.

2:26 And the social cues we still don't understand, plus the new ways in which you're being rude and you don't even know it.

2:33 But first, M. Vernon.

2:35 In case you missed it, stop quiet quitting and start loud working. So according to Business Insider, there's been a cultural shift in the way people work. Before we were quite quitting where we would come and do our jobs and basically just do the bare minimum, never going above and beyond and then going home and prioritizing your lifestyle outside of work. And now we've done the opposite. So people are finding it really hard to find jobs. They're finding it really hard to retain their jobs. So what they're doing is something called loud working, which is basically where you go above and beyond or you make sure that everyone sees you working.

3:12 Performative working.

3:13 So this can be like you finish a project and then you email your boss going, hey, I finished this project and I did really well at it.

3:19 And you do that, you send that email maybe at 10 p.m.

3:22 Exactly.

3:23 Schedule it.

3:23 Schedule it.

3:24 Maybe at like 2 a.m. Yeah, exactly. Start of the day.

3:27 Start of the day.

3:29 I'm working.

3:30 Another way you can do it is if you go on LinkedIn and you talk about all the work you've been doing. If you do your day, corporate girlies, day in the life. I'm working really, really hard. I log off at 7 p.m. and I get to work at 5 a.m. Who's going to know?

3:44 This is second nature for Gen Xers because when we were coming up, everybody was like, girls have jobs. You worked really hard and you made sure everybody knew about it all the time. So that's why there are annoying people in your office who do do that thing of like, putting a message in Slack that doesn't really need to be there at 9pm and stuff just to show you, like, I'm never off, I never stop.

4:05 Yeah, and you have to look, like, a bit frazzled and also. Eating at your desk. Yes, yes.

4:09 Running to the bathroom, like, treating myself to a pee.

4:12 They're like, they see you sitting in the kitchen and they're like, must be nice. Like, very that.

4:17 I haven't even had any water today, they say at 4pm.

4:20 I need to wear a nappy because I don't have time for toilet breaks.

4:23 Like, we're really good.

4:25 At that, aren't we? Yeah.

4:25 Well, what's happened now apparently is that the job market is insecure again. So that means LinkedIn. It means that every job you do, you do a project. You prepped for Outloud today. I hope you've scheduled a LinkedIn post. There's actually a narrative about.

4:39 Like when I was five, I wanted to be on a podcast.

4:43 The first time I saw a microphone. I knew I was destined for it.

4:47 And then you do a whole thing that has to like just signal to the industry, I'm hot property, come and hire me. And look, I think I find it more annoying than quiet quitting, I must say. I'm seeing a lot of it.

4:59 So I fully agree. I'm so bad at LinkedIn. I need to get on it. I need to do some loud working over on LinkedIn. I'm like, not another platform. I don't understand it.

5:08 Can't we just do the work rather than always performing the work?

5:11 I know.

5:13 I've been with my boyfriend for two years and I don't know his salary. That was the headline on a piece on BBC.com that I immediately needed to talk to M. Vernon about. The reporter was in America, was in New York City, and went out and vox popped a whole load of like youngish dating people about whether or not they talk about what they each earn when they're dating.

5:36 And if you do talk about it, when do you talk about it? One woman who was 25 and dating a guy who she knows earns more than her says he knows how much she earns, but she hasn't asked how much he earns. But she does say he's more free spending, whereas I'm always saying that's too expensive. It's an unspoken rule. He'll pick up bigger bills. Quite a few of the men and women interviewed said that being asked about their salaries on early dates would be a big red flag. Agree. I need to know what Emma Vernon, who is our young and dating person, thinks about this conversation.

6:10 Should you have it? When should you have it? And how would you feel if someone asked you about it on an early date?

6:15 I think you should have it when you should have it third date.

6:19 Third date. Why third date?

6:21 Because third date is like the time where I think I've talked about on the podcast before where I give them like all of the things that I need to achieve. And if they're going to be in my life, this is what we're achieving.

6:30 I'm imagining Em getting ready for date three and she's like in the mirror.

6:34 No book out.

6:35 Here we go. Remember this is the day.

6:37 How many children do you want?

6:38 Exactly. How long an engagement do you think is appropriate? Not even that.

6:43 It's more like I want to be engaged by here, married by here, kids by here.

6:47 Are you aligned? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:48 Are you aligned?

6:49 Yeah, are you aligned? But yeah, the money thing, it's more like I make this much. How much do you make?

6:56 Why?

6:58 Because I am the kind of, and I know this about myself, my favorite kind of dates are going out, going to restaurants, having a fun time. And I want to be aware that we can both afford that. And I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable if they think they can't.

7:12 But what if they said... you earn this and they say, oh, but I only earn this. And then you're like, oh, well, we're not going to be going out for very many dinners then.

7:20 No, I'm not like that. I'll just be like, okay, then I'll suggest some like at home date. Somewhere like really cheap. Yeah, at home date. And then we can hang out at home. But like I like to just know. I just like to know because I'm also the kind of person that more often than not will pay for the first date because I'm more often than not the person who asks the person on the first date. So I think the person who asks has to be the one who pays.

7:41 So the person who asks pays and that's you, so you pay. Yes, I pay. And then second date, you probably expect them to pay? Is there a reciprocal arrangement?

7:48 I never expect them to pay. I always like say either we take turns or we either split it. But then one time I was dating this guy and I just assumed he earned much less than me because I paid for the first date and the second date and then we were splitting and then I paid and then we split and then I paid. He was making three times more than what I was making. And I was like, how dare you say that?

8:08 I would never ask someone how much they earn.

8:12 Me neither. I.

8:14 I don't know that it would– but then I'm wondering that there are certain questions that we ask on dates that infer it.

8:21 The first question is, what do you do for a living, right? And then if you want to go to the toilet– So then you're ballparking.

8:26 You're ballparking because you go to the Google and you go, how much does an anaesthetist or whatever earn in an average year?

8:33 And you go, oh, nice. Then you come back out, right? The second thing you ask– Do you actually do that? Did you actually do that?

8:39 You could.

8:40 You could. I never have, but I could.

8:42 Yeah. The second thing you do, and I notice this on all my dating shows, is that they go, I'm looking for someone really driven and ambitious. What they mean by that is someone who's going to make some money because that's your way of saying, like, career-driven, like, let's be a team here, right?

8:59 But it could also go the opposite where it could be someone who, like, wants to be an actor. True. And they're just, like, auditioning and auditioning and auditioning.

9:07 Yeah, and you don't know.

9:08 But the thing about even asking for how much do you earn is is there are things like debt.

9:17 That doesn't come into that.

9:18 The person I dated who earned the most on paper had the biggest debt.

9:22 So that information actually wouldn't have told me anything.

9:25 So actually you're like, could you bring your financial statements in? How do I have access to your banking app?

9:30 Yeah, you need to ask debt and you also need to say what sort of assets do we have? And also, are you looking at an inheritance? Like, give me like... I'm not asking.

9:38 Them to be there and count it. I'm asking to like figure out.

9:42 I want to see if you agree with this. this right because a psychology professor quoted in one of these articles said apparently there are three questions you should be able to answer yes to before you should ask about how much money somebody makes right because let's say let's imagine that people maybe don't have your three-day rule, but like you've been dating for a while and you're kind of thinking about it and you're like, should I ask?

10:05 Will I still feel attracted to them if I learn they make substantially less money than me? You have to be able to answer yes to that question. Does this partner appear to have enough self-esteem to handle that I might make more than them? very important question do I deeply trust them with this information do I really know their values and morals because that's the other thing is if I was I mean I know it's been a long time since I've been on a date and a lot has changed but if I was on a date and on day two date two someone asked me how much money do you make? I'd be like, why do you want to know that? I would be very defensive.

10:41 To me, that's like very private information.

10:44 It's like, are you trying to either steal from me?

10:47 Or scam me somehow?

10:48 Yeah.

10:49 I would be defensive about it. So if you could answer yes to all those questions, then it's time to ask the question.

10:54 But if you could answer yes, then why are you asking? If it's not going to change anything, then I don't see how it's Relevant.

11:03 I understand that when you move in with.

11:04 Someone or you're combining finances, I think that transparency is really important.

11:11 But when you're dating, I think it's really.

11:14 Hard to ask that question without there being some assumption about what you want the answer to be.

11:21 But I think it's as important as asking other questions. So if you're also like wondering whether they want kids or not, like that could be a huge deal breaker for some people going, that person doesn't want kids, so I only want to date someone who does want kids because that's.

11:34 What I want.

11:35 But I also think we always leave out financial goals when we're talking about dating. And I think financial goals are as important as other goals because it's literally how you set up for your future.

11:46 She's so smart.

11:47 She is smart and I also reckon that the people who are least, like I don't, there are some people who just don't like talking about money and they just were brought up that way.

11:56 I don't like talking about money.

11:57 I'm English.

11:58 I would rather die than have this conversation with anyone.

12:01 But also I've noticed that the people who don't earn a lot, oh, they'll tell you. They'll wear it as a badge.

12:07 The people who have suddenly started earning a lot, oh, it gets very secretive because they don't want to pick up the bill.

12:13 That's so true.

12:14 And because they don't want to have to like, Practice generosity, for example.

12:19 So my, like people I know who have kind of gone up the ladder, I'm like, oh, you've got very coy about money.

12:25 Haven't you?

12:26 That's a nice suit you're wearing.

12:27 Yeah.

12:29 I know that it's cultural and I also know it's life stagey, but I just, it's just deep down in me somewhere that I think it's really rude to ask someone how much money they earn. Like I wouldn't ask any of my friends that. Really? I mean, it's not that it's secret information. Like it comes up in the conversations where you're talking about people might be like, I need a new job because, or like, or whatever, or I'm really pissed off at work because I feel like I'm undervalued or whatever it is. Like it comes up, but I would never sit down with my girlfriends or anything and like, for us all to put on the table how much money we earn.

13:02 That would just be weird.

13:03 Money makes everything weird.

13:05 But why do you think it's rude?

13:06 Because I'm, like, I'm not talking about, like, I guess, like, debt or any, like, family inheritance. I see I'm only talking about, like, the money you earn from working. Like, I think it's just about, like, how you work and what industry you're in and, like, who your managers are and, like, how hard it is to move up in that industry. Like, that's all I see.

13:23 When you have that third date conversation, when you go, how much do you earn? how long an engagement do you think is appropriate? Has it ever freaked anyone out? It has, yes.

13:35 A lot of people, like, because I date men, a lot of men get quite like, oh my God, like what's happening here? And a lot of them don't tell me. But the ones who do tell me, it's really interesting because I feel like they have a bit of, they get a bit of a complex if they find out that I earn more than them. I think we still live in this, especially with younger millennials. I think there's like this group of men who have been brought up in like a toxic masculinity environment and are trying to like push against that. But there's still like some innate feelings of like, oh, I'm bristling at this for some weird reason. And I think that's sometimes where I can get a bit iffy, where if I'm dating someone who's

14:15 a bit older than me, especially when I was in my mid 20s and I was dating someone in their early 30s, And if they earn less than me, that would be a huge red flag for them.

14:24 I think that there is so much... I mean, not that women.

14:26 Don't have complexes about it, but for men, if we look at how, like, gender is socialised, there are these narratives about providing and about income and about that being linked to your worth and your value that... If I were a man who were dating, I would definitely have insecurity about how much I earned and what industry I worked in and that maybe women were looking for that because there are some women on my dating shows who are very open about wanting to date someone who can provide for them, which isn't the same in reverse.

15:00 It would be a massive red flag for me if any guy wasn't. was freaked out by a woman earning more money. Oh, yeah. And also, though I say that, I spent a lot of my younger life dating guys who had no money at all, and none of them were in the least bit worried that I had a job that paid me money. They were much more like, oh, so you can buy my drugs, drinks, pay my rent. Petrol. Like, they were very happy with that.

15:23 So you'll be paying.

15:23 I'm like, damn it, I have not come across these men who were intimidated by women who earned money.

15:29 Where do I find one of those?

15:31 So obviously things have changed by now. I asked the Outlouders when in their relationships, if they were in relationships, they found out and a lot of them agreed with you and they said early on. Really? They were not necessarily date three, but they said big turning points were when you move in, which I think is like that's quite obvious. Suddenly you've got to pull finances. And then one Outlouder said she only found out this year when they were doing the census and they'd been together for 20 odd years. What? Oh, my God. But it hadn't been an issue. Like, the money goes into a pot. Like, some people are very protective of separate accounts, joint accounts, all those things. If a guy's got nefarious intentions, you

16:08 want to keep your money to yourself. Like, there's a whole lot of reasons.

16:11 It's when we moved in together that Luca learned about the fines. The parking fines come in the mail if you don't pay them straight away. Uh-oh.

16:19 Out Loud is, in a moment, the new rude.

16:22 We want to discuss the ways in which we, and by that I mean me, am being rude without even knowing it. According to The Guardian, there are five new ways to be rude. Your grandmother could not teach you these rules because it sounded like, it would have sounded like it was something from a sci-fi movie. But let me give you the rundown. And as I list them, I want you to tell me whether or not you think they're rude.

16:47 Okay. Number one.

16:50 Using chat GPT to write a heartfelt message. Rude or efficient?

16:56 100% rude. M?

16:58 Rude if you get found out. Like if the last word in your heartfelt message was like, how about this?

17:04 Do you have any edits? Would you like me to elaborate?

17:09 Can you imagine if you got a text from your mum today that was like, Good luck being back at work, Ham. So proud of you. And then you found out a bot had written it.

17:18 Wouldn't you be offended?

17:19 I'd be very impressed that she knows how to use bots.

17:22 Definitely rude.

17:23 Number two, organising to meet up on a dating app and then never following through.

17:28 So rude. Oh, my God. And just because I asked you about your salary, how dare you?

17:34 It was our third message. It's appropriate. It's fine.

17:37 Message three is please upload bank account details.

17:41 Send me finances.

17:44 Number three, keeping your headphones in when you're paying at the till or the counter.

17:50 Rude. I do it. I do it quite often. But I always pick myself up when I sort of try not to do it because it is rude. No question.

17:59 What if it's like a self-serve thing? Well, that's okay.

18:03 The self-serve thing isn't going to be upset about it.

18:06 You never know.

18:07 But you know when the self-serve thing inevitably goes unexpected item in the bag area and a real human comes over, then you have to.

18:14 Okay, got it.

18:15 But I think because often, you know, they'll ask you, someone will ask you a question because you think this interaction is simple. I'm going to order my coffee. They're going to give my coffee walkway. They ask you a question and you've got your headphones in and you're just like, it's rude. It is rude.

18:28 Is it rude if I walk into a shop and I'm browsing and I have my headphones on?

18:34 No. No.

18:35 Okay. Interesting.

18:36 I think the point at which it becomes rude is any human coming into it. So when someone comes up and goes, can I help you? You're going to have to take them out. Exactly.

18:46 Okay.

18:46 Number four, using social events as content opportunities. So by this, it means like you've got a cousin's wedding. You've got, I don't know, someone's birthday party and you spend a significant portion of that time trying to make a really like aesthetic carousel for your socials.

19:04 I'm handing this one to Em.

19:05 Not rude if the content is for that person. So if you're bringing your digital camera to someone's wedding and you're taking photos of, like, the bride and it's, like, all about her and you're like, here are the photos I took on my camera of you for you, not rude. And then you can maybe make a post after.

19:21 But what about if it was the– you knew that this was an excellent relaunch opportunity because you were going to be wearing an amazing dress and you would have got your hair professionally done, so you go to the wedding– but you spend a large portion of it getting like really aesthetic sunrise shots, sunset shots rather, with a drink because you know you're going to put them on your dating profile.

19:39 Okay, I think it's only rude if the first photo is of yourself in the carousel. You have to always post the person, if it's their birthday, or if it's like a wedding, you have to post that person first to be like, this is their event. Look how beautiful they are. Second photo can be you.

19:58 Third photo, how much do you owe?

20:00 Third photo, you. Fourth photo, your boyfriend's finances. LAUGHTER And then go on.

20:06 Number five.

20:07 It's so complicated.

20:08 Leaving a WhatsApp group without warning.

20:11 I can't do it. I'm still in several WhatsApp groups that I should have left like literally years ago.

20:17 If you archive it, does that– do you leave?

20:21 I don't know. I archive a lot. But I think if you're leaving, I don't really want you to announce it because that's confrontation. Like if we're in a group, which we are, Jessie– and with Mia and you suddenly went I am leaving this group that would be awks I'd rather you just slipped away and then I suddenly was like hold on Jessie's been quiet and I.

20:41 Have all the time people in our messaging system at work. It'll be like, you know, Em left the out loud content window.

20:46 Sorry.

20:47 And I'm like, okay, bitchy.

20:48 She hates us.

20:50 And I think that's rude. I think you should announce it and give me a why.

20:53 Yes.

20:54 Now this brings me to a brilliant sub stack I read recently by a woman named Holly Morris and it was called Social Cues. I'm Still Trying. failing to get my head around at 32. And she basically says, what about these things she's clear on and what she's still trying to work out and get her head around.

21:12 So we're going to go through them.

21:14 Number one, if you go to a friend's house, you now have to take something around. You have to take something, right? And she says, all right, I get it. You don't announce I brought a gift. You have to plonk down the bottle of wine really loudly. So everyone knows, but don't announce it. Here's what she can't quite work out. Um, Her question is, if you're not drinking, do you still bring a bottle? And also, if you are asked to bring something, for example, guacamole and chips, are you also bringing a gift or is that the gift?

21:44 Discuss.

21:44 I think if you're not drinking, you still bring the bottle because you have to pretend that the bottle is for the person, not for all of you to share.

21:53 Right.

21:53 So if I bring a bottle, because I would often bring a bottle of something I would enjoy drinking. Yes. Am I allowed to open it or is it now in the possession of the person that I've just.

22:02 Handed it to?

22:03 Do not open that bottle.

22:04 What am I meant to open?

22:05 The bottle is for me. No, the bottle is for the event.

22:09 No, it's not. What do you mean?

22:12 No, it's not. I hope you're not doing this.

22:14 What do you mean?

22:14 You bring the bottle and you're like, here, this is for you. And then I take the bottle and open it on a nice occasion because it's a very expensive bottle of wine.

22:22 And you give me your cheap shit.

22:23 And then I give you my cheap wine because I'm hosting so I can do whatever I want.

22:27 That's not right. That's how it works. You're bringing what you're drinking. That's what I always think. Like you're bringing what you're drinking and like what people are going to drink, aren't you?

22:36 I thought that.

22:37 When I go around to my friends, I always take a bottle of rosé because that's what we're going to open and drink.

22:41 If I wasn't drinking, how would you feel, Holly, if I came around with a big two-litre bottle of Pepsi Max?

22:48 You're bringing what you're drinking. Can you get me a glass of ice, please? Or just draw. That would be so me.

22:55 It's just a straw.

22:56 It's just for me. Get that out of my head. But then I would be like, but where's my wine? Where's my wine?

23:03 Is there a wine too?

23:04 If you're not drinking, bring chocolates.

23:06 So true.

23:07 Okay.

23:08 The next one is if someone's boyfriend does something shitty. You have to tread a fine line of agreeing the action was shitty but not implying he himself is shitty.

23:18 That's the lesson.

23:19 It's very complicated.

23:20 It's very complicated. But she says you must finish.

23:23 So you say, Em, my boyfriend has been liking images of hot women on Instagram and it's hurting my feelings.

23:31 And I have to say, according to her, that's unlike him. I have to say that. I see why you're upset. But he's a good guy. That's what I have to do, right? Here's what she is asking.

23:44 Are you meant to then follow up with something shitty your partner did.

23:47 Or is that making it about you?

23:49 Oh, no, I would want to hear about what your partners are doing too. Like maybe I'll just make up a scenario just so I can hear about your partners.

23:56 I make some up too, yeah.

23:57 This is tricky.

23:58 A friend of mine was telling me something that their partner did that I thought was bad recently and I just found myself, maybe I was tired, maybe my filter was down. I just went like, that's fucked. If that was me, I'd be so pissed off. And then I saw the look on her face and I was like, that's.

24:11 Not what you're supposed to say.

24:14 What was required of me in that moment was to go, Oh, yes, but, you know, he's busy. It's okay. Sometimes you just can't, right? Sometimes you just can't. Sometimes you've just got to say, mate, that's not on. That's not on.

24:29 And it's a balance too because sometimes you can tell a friend really wants you to lean in.

24:33 I'm going, oh, but– Bruce is such a nice guy. And they're kind of like, why are you defending him? Do you love him? And it's like, no, I don't love him. I just thought I didn't want to like diss him because you guys stay together.

24:44 Exactly, because then you'll always know when I go, Bruce, we know this trap. It's a tricky trap to walk up sometimes.

24:50 I do think that then you have to build. It's all about builds.

24:54 It doesn't have to be the same shitty thing your husband did, but it can be like my husband also is.

24:59 Is the worst because blah.

25:01 Like I think that we can, and then it's a fun ping pong. Number three, at a restaurant, just start doesn't mean eating. She says, it actually means that you start shuffling the food around on your plate and you can load up the fork. At that point, when you load up the fork, the other person is going to say to you, no, really start.

25:21 And that's when you're allowed to start.

25:23 We need two signals.

25:27 Yes.

25:27 Because at first you're like, but it's rude, and then they're like, no.

25:31 It's not. My question with this is sides are fair game, right?

25:36 Yeah, like fries.

25:36 Yeah.

25:37 Like if you can pick up fries. My favourite in this situation is going, no, please, because otherwise it will get cold.

25:43 Yeah.

25:44 And then you're giving them a reason why.

25:46 Yeah, yeah, I agree.

25:48 You have to insist. Number four, when asked what did you get up to at the weekend... What you have to do, so she says this is an opener. It's not a genuine interest-led question is what she's learned. And your answer has to be just a chilled one, actually, and it's rude to go into any more detail because.

26:08 People don't care. Not much.

26:10 She says, if you don't want to know what I got up to, then why don't you just ask?

26:16 How was your weekend rather than what did you get up to?

26:18 What's that?

26:19 And she suggests that instead we should all just say to each other on a Monday, you walk in, I say, hi, Holly, there was a weekend.

26:26 And you're like, yeah.

26:27 This really made me think because I have always been a big defender of small talk. We are. No, I've talked about this on the show before that when Jessie and Claire first came to work at Mamma Mia, they'd barely been outside. They didn't know how to behave in an office environment. They'd just walk in, sit down and.

26:47 And loudly work, which I thought was the rule.

26:52 Work loudly.

26:53 But I was like, no, you have to say hello to the people around. You have to say hi.

26:59 You guys didn't even say hello.

27:00 I didn't.

27:00 It was called mentoring.

27:02 They were like you on the phone. They were just like.

27:05 You call me.

27:08 And I was like, small talk is great. Small talk is social norms. Small talk is just lubrication. It doesn't matter that no one's saying anything. It's just all like. Got it. But I think maybe this is my like give no fucks. era is that I'm questioning that enthusiasm now. I think I'm done with it.

27:26 No, you're wrong, Holly, because I was reading the comments on this and that actually brings me to point number five, which was relatedly, weather chat on a Zoom call is purely perfunctory, but also absolutely necessary. And one of the comments said, weather talk is is an acknowledgement of our common humanity.

27:45 It's true, and that's what I've always said about Smalltalk is that it's basically like, I see you, I see you, you see me. But I think maybe my, like, the shortened fuse of midlife or whatever is that now I'm like, I don't give a fuck what you did on the weekend. But I do want to say hi. But I love. So just being able to go, we had a weekend would actually be ideal.

28:07 But I think there's, like, also safety in those questions where you know you're going to, especially for introverts. Yeah. Like asking about like, how was your weekend? Oh my God, it was so hot yesterday, wasn't it? That's like a safety thing to say. I don't want to be like, how was your weekend? And then think that you're going to be like, oh, piss off.

28:23 What a shit question.

28:25 Ask me something better.

28:26 That would freak me out. That would freak me out.

28:29 I do want to hear about something. Maybe it should be more like, did you do anything worthy of discussion on your weekend?

28:36 That's a nice way to ask.

28:37 That would be good. Yeah.

28:38 And then like you could be like, no.

28:40 Actually, no. Or you could be like, yes, I went to see, I don't know, I went on my third date and I found out that the.

28:47 Guy I'm dating.

28:48 Is a billionaire.

28:49 Well, I found out that there's actually quite a prescriptive way to have the weather conversation because you get on a Zoom call and I don't know, maybe that person is interstate. And I say, it was hot last week and now it's cold, right? And then the other person says, it was cold here and now it's hot, right? Interesting.

29:08 That's weird. It's like yesterday, hot, today, cold.

29:11 But where do we go from there, right? And she says, this is a script. You have to do a small laugh, ha, ha, ha, or hmm. And then you pause and then someone has to say, right, we didn't come here to talk about the weather, right?

29:24 This is essential. I know someone who for years was pretending he was living somewhere he wasn't living and working remotely, right? And so every day when he'd get on his Zoom calls, he had to Google the weather in the city that he was meant to be living in and be like.

29:45 Ooh, how about that wind? Ooh, it's so cold.

29:49 That's so funny.

29:51 And I'd just be.

29:52 Like, you are a psychopath. You can't lie about weather. Lie about all.

29:57 Kinds of things. It's raining outside and you're saying that you're in a heat wave.

30:01 He was like, very important. He knew the rules that.

30:04 You're putting out.

30:05 It was very important.

30:06 That is so good. Oh my God, I love that.

30:10 We're going to put a link to that sub stack in the show notes because that was a really funny sub stack. It was very helpful.

30:15 Outlouders, after the break, our favorite recos from this week, including something I did last week that makes me a better human than everyone else. It's Friday and we want to help set up your weekend with our very best recommendations. Holly, do you want to go first?

30:32 I will.

30:33 I've got a very specific recommendation this week, which is for people who are interested in writing or creativity, right? Which isn't everybody, but there's a large portion of people who are always like, hmm, I'd like to know more about that. It's actually a lecture, right, delivered by Emily Maguire, who's this amazing literary fiction writer.

30:51 Yes, I have recommended one of her books on the show before called Love Objects.

30:55 It's brilliant.

30:56 She is an exceptional writer, but it's about, the lecture is kind of about how she came up with the idea for her book Rapture that was a big, big deal last year, that book. Um, and how it came from really unexpected places and the way that the, and so the whole idea is where you get your ideas, how to keep hold of them. And she starts it by talking about being in one place and taking notes about a certain amount of things. And then by the end of it, where it comes back around to where she got the idea of this book, you actually gasp with surprise, like that there was this connection because as she says about writing, which anyone who writes a lot knows, it's a lot of hard work and discipline and problem

31:35 solving and structure and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But there is a pinch of magic in it. There just is, right? And she does a brilliant job of explaining all that. Anyway, Emily McGuire, as well as being a writer, she also teaches writing. And I was doing some research because I was going to be on a panel with her. Whenever you're going to be on a panel with writers and stuff, you generally find out a bit more about them, do a bit of research, a bit of homework, so you know that you've got common ground. And And someone sent me this lecture that she'd given that now is on the ABC's Big Ideas podcast. Now, I'm not generally someone who listens to a lot of lectures like these days.

32:08 You know, I listen to TED Talks. I listen to monologues.

32:11 I listen to podcasts.

32:12 But I'm like, and it was so great that I am now recommending it to anyone who's interested in creativity because what it was about. is about, and this is something that a lot of people struggle with when they know they want to write, but they're not sure what they want to write or whether their ideas are any good, is it was all about how to find your ideas and how to let them breathe. And she's a massive supporter of journaling, which is both of you two like this, but for different reasons. I think, Jessie, probably yours is a writerly practice in that She doesn't necessarily journal, this is what I did today. Not that I'm saying you do.

32:48 I'm not sure what's in your beautiful journal. That is exactly what I journal.

32:51 I talk about the weather.

32:51 You lie about it. I practice a small talk. It's not necessarily what I did today, but writing down all the small things you notice because she says the number one rule of creativity is pay attention. Writers all know this, but it's so much easier than you think to slip out of that. And so you might be writing down.

33:11 So she talked a lot about the... Journals she keeps that often it'll just be really small things in there, like the color of somebody's coat that just grabbed your eye when you're in the street or whatever it is. And how you put these, when you start building all these things together and you revisit them, you will find that you've got this treasure trove to jump into of ideas.

33:30 She says you've got to read really promiscuously, you know, don't sit in one genre, go in all different places, same with TV and movies and art and all those things. You get your ideas and inspiration from the outside world. And it all sounds so obvious, but we don't do it, right? We are all so tuned into our day, headphones in, in the shop, all those things, and just walking our path and go, well, I don't like those kind of books.

33:56 I don't want to do that. I'm not the kind of person who goes to a blah, blah. But every time you step outside those zones, it's where you're putting your pebbles in. But anyway, I'm not doing her justice. I'm going to put a link in the show notes to this lecture because I found it really inspiring. And when we were talking on the panel, we were also saying how Actually, when you start really paying attention, and this is a bit of what I was talking about the other week, it makes you a better writer, a better artist, but it also makes you a happier person because you're seeing things around you all the time that are like worthy of note rather than just being in your little head.

34:28 I'm actually going to leapfrog off that because my recommendation is very much related to that. So I was scrolling before bed recently, which you should never do, and I came across a– it was like a suggestion– carousel-y post and it said, basically, you should do this practice with your husband, wife, partner, whatever, before bed, every night. When you're in bed together, here's what you should do. These are the three questions you're meant to ask. And I have to say, it has been so lovely and been a great reset. So the first one is, what was most pleasant today? What made you laugh today? And what are you grateful for? And they're the three things.

35:12 And it's always.

35:13 I always learn something about something Lukey did that.

35:18 I didn't know about. What was the first one again?

35:20 What was most pleasant today.

35:21 What was most pleasant today.

35:22 And it's always something little that you like. And they are different questions. They are, you know, we had one day where everyone was sick and we were all tired. But there are just these moments that if you are not looking for them intentionally, you'll miss them. And I think it does rewire you to wake up and notice those moments.

35:39 And it does change things. So those questions are great.

35:41 Do you.

35:43 write them down? I don't.

35:44 I think that's part of the game. Part of the.

35:50 Kind of practice is to go, what does my mind grab onto? And there's like no right answer or wrong answer or whatever. It's just like, and it'll always be something funny that someone said or whatever that otherwise just would have slipped by.

36:05 I love that. I want to do that.

36:06 It's really good.

36:06 That's amazing.

36:08 Em, what's your recommendation?

36:09 So my recommendation is the reason why I was away last week, and it was because I was with a big team from Habitat for Humanity in Cambodia. We were building... Two houses for families in need. It was something I've never, ever done before. I mean, look at me.

36:30 I should be on the campaign poster.

36:32 Like if she can do it, anyone can. It was like the most mentally and physically challenging thing I've ever, ever done in my whole life.

36:41 Easily.

36:42 And I would 100% do it again.

36:44 So it was like you were kind of on holiday because you were staying in a hotel or whatever, but every day you basically went and worked every day, physical labor, building these houses.

36:53 For a full day. So we'd leave the hotel early in the morning after breakfast, drive on a bus an hour to this small village, work, come back at nighttime, go for dinner, do the same thing the next day.

37:08 And in that time, what did you actually build?

37:11 We built two houses. So Habitat for Humanity, they do so much great work. And they don't say they're building houses. They say they're building shelter because houses mean so many different things in different countries. So we were building two houses, one on the ground, a brick house, and then one on stilts, which they have in a lot of Asian countries because of flooding. It was so much fun. Like, I've made lifelong friends in this team and I'm like, I was like one of the youngest ones there.

37:40 And one of them is my bestie, Penny. Yes, Penny. I know she's my bestie. Yeah, you and Penny were away together. Oh, my God.

37:47 And then we'd all come.

37:48 It was really fun.

37:49 I was talking to a friend on the trip who I made on the trip. And the first night I went into the pool at the hotel after the build, and it was just like me and a few others. And then as the days went on, more and more people would join the pool and we'd all just be like congregated and just like, we only wanted to be together like the whole time. It was even, we had a free day, I think Wednesday night, or we could choose to stay with the group and do something. And most people chose to stay with the group and do something together. But it's just one of those things that I feel like a lot of people will see it on their social media or hear of a friend who did it but have never really explored it themselves.

38:24 And don't know how because I didn't know that that's what it was called. So you actually sign up with them. Yep.

38:29 So you sign up with them.

38:29 And it's like a program.

38:30 You treat it as like.

38:31 Your own holiday. So you book your accommodation, you book your flight, and then you raise money. And then the money raised goes towards Habitat for Humanity, the families there. Plus also it will like be spent on like your dinners and lunches and breakfasts and everything. The people who I went with, a lot of them it was our first time build, but a lot of them it was like, 12th build, like some people was in Cambodia for like the 24th time just doing it. They also do it in Nepal. If you don't have the means to travel, they also have like a domestic program called Brush With Kindness, where they set up homes for people in Australia who are either escaping domestic violence or preventing youth from going homeless.

39:14 They also do stuff with corporate. So if you work in corporate and you want to do some team building exercise, you could just do this for a day, get your volunteer leave. I am like, it's like I am amazed by like how this whole thing was just operating outside my world and it was just everyone there was just so bloody kind and nice. And I was definitely one of those people who was like, after day one, I was like, I cannot do this again. Like, I cannot go back for day two. I'm going to have to like leave. It's so hard.

39:41 It was proper hard work.

39:41 It was proper hard. And I was so, so nervous because they were like proper trades people on our team. There were people who were doing it for years and And I was like, I'm just not going to be good enough. Like, it's going to be like really embarrassing for me. And no one cares. Like everyone's just there to help. We all have this, people from like different ages, different professions. There was like a magistrate on my team.

40:01 Like we were all just there for this one goal and everyone just knew they were all doing what they could do. And it was just so beautiful.

40:10 It was so fun. I'm so glad you had a great time.

40:12 I want everyone to do it. Even if it's not for you, everyone has to experience it at least once. It's so much fun.

40:17 My friend Penny, who is the CEO of that charity, right? So I've known her for more than 20 years, 25 years. And she used to work in corporate world and she was, she wouldn't mind me saying, quite a head kicker in that. Like she's a very impressive woman. And I want to say about, Probably seven years ago, she jumped to work in the not-for-profit space. And I'm just so impressed by her every day that that's what she does. And I'm so happy that you went and did that.

40:47 Penny could have built one of the houses by herself.

40:49 Penny can do anything.

40:53 That's all we've got time for this week. But before we go, there's a new subscriber offer. You know how good they always are, right?

41:00 Yeah.

41:00 So an incentive for subscribers. If you're already a subscriber, you are in the running to win it. But if you become one now, you could be. Jessie, tell us what it is.

41:09 So we are giving one lucky subscriber a $ 5, 000 voucher with B2C Furniture to spend online or in store. So if you're looking for something like a couch, then B2C Furniture is a great place to go because it's It makes high-end living affordable. So it's designer looks without the designer price tag.

41:30 Awesome.

41:31 As I say, if you're already a subscriber, you're already in the running to win that $ 5, 000 voucher. But if you're not yet, there's a link in the show notes. Get your bum to the subscriber section.

41:41 Yay.

41:41 Your offer ends October 31st. T's and C's apply.

41:44 The other great thing is it doesn't have that 12-week wait. You know how you go into a shop and you go, I want that piece of furniture. And they're like, you want it in four months? And it's like, I wanted it yesterday. Well, they understand that that is what you are looking for. Everything is already in stock. It is ready to ship. So there is no space between choosing it and actually owning it.

42:03 That's all we've got time for today out loud is a massive thanks to you all and to our amazing team for putting the show together. We'll be back in your ears on Monday.

42:10 Bye.

42:11 Bye. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've recorded this podcast.