There's Wh*res In This Gym & Harry’s Masterclass On Grief

0:03 Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday the 14th of October.

0:09 I'm Holly Wainwright.

0:10 I'm Mia Friedman.

0:11 And I'm Jessie Stephens.

0:13 And here's what's on our agenda for today.

0:15 Shane Gillis and a joke that has upset women all over the world. We want to talk about the timing but also the response from female comics.

0:24 I have a question.

0:25 If everyone is cashing in on the memory of your late mum, isn't it only fair that you get two too? I'm asking for my favourite freelance royal.

0:33 I am watching a show that I really don't even like and I want to ask what it has in common with the Matildas and September 11 and.

0:43 Why it's Jessie's worst nightmare.

0:45 But first, Mia Friedman.

0:46 In case you missed it, Girls is coming back. I know.

0:50 I saw that this morning. I was so excited to see this. How good is the promo, the trailer?

0:54 I loved seeing them. Let me explain.

0:57 The announcement came out this morning in the form of a Zoom call with the cast.

1:01 Here's a little bit of it.

1:02 I can't tell what I'm hearing right now, so I'm just going to ask, are you in?

1:06 I'm in. I'm in. I'm in.

1:08 What's up, ladies?

1:09 Hi.

1:10 What are we doing next summer?

1:12 Girls.

1:12 Would you want to do girls again next summer?

1:14 I'm in.

1:14 But only because you trash cans need constant supervision.

1:18 I have a question, though. Seriously, can we still call it girls? Because we're, like, old as fuck.

1:24 She's making five new episodes of Girls. With most of the OG cast, the four girls, Shosh, Jessa, Marnie, and obviously Hannah, and also Elijah, who is Andrew Reynolds.

1:38 And it's going to not be called Girls, it's going to be called Women.

1:41 Is it actually?

1:42 No.

1:43 Oh, okay.

1:43 But they are all pushing 40 or over 40. Do you know how old Andrew Reynolds is, Elijah?

1:49 He's 48 now.

1:50 Wow.

1:51 Gosh, he looks 22. That man does not age.

1:52 I was just waiting for Adam Driver to join the call. Didn't happen, funnily enough. But you know how he wouldn't.

1:56 He's a serious actor with a capital A now. HBO's Green lit five episodes. They're going to start shooting in 2027. I can't imagine we'll see it before the end of next year, but it's such an interesting idea because it's At the time, there was so much controversy about girls and it was one of those lightning rod zeitgeist shows for better and worse. And Lena particularly copped so much.

2:25 Her recent memoir, Famesick, she talked about how, you know, this new generation's discovering it. But she said in this announcement that they're bringing it back that, She said for 10 years, it felt like swimming away from a glacier. She didn't want to know about it. She needed to leave it behind.

2:44 But she said now.

2:44 40 is such a transitional time for women.

2:48 She wants to revisit the characters.

2:49 I reckon there's something about the age of 40 and there's a great line that she's got in her newsletter where she announced it where she basically said at 40 you either haven't had kids yet or you're sending your kids to college or, you know, you're not going to have kids. Basically this idea, and we've talked about this a lot internally, that your life stage is divorced from your age now and that there's never been more– different ways to be 40 and a lot of people I know who are 40 say it's the best decade of their life so I think it's just such a rich text and 40 is kind of being reclaimed so I'm very excited to.

3:27 See what they'll do I just want to know Mia if you're excited because I know you're a big fan of girls I'm not I wasn't really I love I mean I'm very interested and I love Lena I read everything she writes but the show itself not my thing are you excited or are you a little bit worried I'm wildly.

3:42 Excited because I'll do anything to spend time in their world. But I've got a little bit and just like that cautionary tale in my head. But I think we're in safer hands because Lena is in the life stage that she's writing about. She's writing and directing and starring. Anything that Lena Dunham does is interesting to me. And I don't think she could have brought it back before she was kind of rehabilitated by her book, do you think?

4:09 No, I agree. I think it's a perfect time. Before this week, you might not have been very familiar with Shane Gillis' comedy. I think Luca and I maybe turned him on one night and watched 10 minutes of a stand-up special, but we didn't get through it. Had you guys ever seen him before?

4:25 Never seen him before.

4:26 I've seen him before, but I've never watched his stuff.

4:29 He is 38. He has a podcast. He is a regular on Joe Rogan. And on Saturday night, he hosted Saturday Night Live. And he's had an interesting history with SNL. In 2019, he was actually announced as a cast member. And then they found these clips of him on his podcast using Asian ethnic slurs. And he was ultimately fired after just five days. He has hosted the show since.

4:56 So this was actually his third go on Saturday night.

4:58 Which means he's back.

5:01 Very much got the stamp of approval by Lorne Michaels, who's the guru, has been the showrunner and the creative force behind that show since the 70s, right?

5:11 And Lorne Michaels also came out and said it wasn't me who made the call to fire him after those five days. That was an NBC thing. So you're right, he has the stamp of approval. It was his monologue that attracted criticism, specifically this part.

5:26 I haven't been to the gym in so long, I didn't know women just dress like whores now. Look, I'm sorry, there's no other way to describe.

5:34 I say, have you seen it?

5:36 I've seen it, the shorts.

5:38 Have you seen the shorts?

5:40 Those neon, they're like the only, they're like artificial bait colored. And the wrinkles, the wrinkles go like around the cheeks and all combine at the butthole.

5:53 Hilarious.

5:53 What a creep.

5:54 Hilarious.

5:55 I reckon putting this into context is actually helpful because I listened to the whole monologue. Same. And in context, I think it's actually worse. And the reason I say that is because.

6:06 I was like, what's she going to say next?

6:09 In context? Before he tells that... He has a whole bit about how he tried to go hiking first. And when he walks past women, they feel scared. And he makes a joke about making a scary face at them as they walk past. And then later on, he refers to his two fat bitch sisters. There was an undercurrent to the entire monologue, which was misogynistic.

6:33 It didn't feel like SNL to me.

6:35 When I watched the monologue, given that last week it was Dakota Johnson, they're always clever. They're always sort of connected to the zeitgeist in a smart way. They always are a bit unexpected and surprising. And it just looked like a really sad middle-aged male comedian.

6:53 Right.

6:54 But I get why they would have him because everything in America is political and polarized, right? And so having someone from that and podcasters and comedians are kind of in tribes. And so having someone from the Joe Rogan tribe in broad terms, I don't mean necessarily politically, but hangs out with Joe Rogan, is on the pro podcasts.

7:17 It's like having someone like that on the show is edgy. It is an edgy choice. You're basically inviting... a lion into the, you know what I mean? It's like, so I understand why they will stand by it because they haven't taken that clip down.

7:33 No, they posted the clip on social.

7:35 There are about 30 clips from, because obviously the way that SNL is mostly consumed now is via social and via short clips. And so every host has their little highlight head on the feed. And then there are about 30 clips from that show. So they're going to stand by that because freedom of speech, comedy is edgy. We make dangerous jokes, dah, dah, dah, dah. But the timing was terrible.

7:57 And that's just it.

7:58 Is there ever a good time for a whore joke?

8:00 No.

8:01 I want to talk about the timing because it has come through in a lot of the commentary. Like Dan Levy has come out and said, especially at the moment in the current climate in the US, that's obviously post the Cornell 7. He's a lovely man.

8:16 I miss him on Chit Chat.

8:17 He's so funny and he doesn't hate women, at least not openly, which is great.

8:22 Not so you can tell.

8:23 Not so– exactly. He keeps that private, which is something more male comics could do. But there was something about a male comic standing there just brazenly– you just got to the end and you go, oh, that's just a guy that doesn't like women. And I think there was this collective moment of just like– Someone just stood, post this Jane Doe case and put the intricacies of that to the side and called women whores on this national, international platform and no one bat an eyelid. I don't think the laughter was enormous and I think he knew by the end of the monologue he hadn't nailed it.

8:54 It was a little, yeah, the laughter, it was one of those things where I thought, oh, what would I do if I was in the audience at SNL? And it was a bit, I hate with comedians now, it's like to prove you're cool, it's like this inverted form of virtue signaling. To prove you're cool, you have to be....

9:15 Anti-woke.

9:16 Racist, sexist.

9:17 Exactly.

9:19 And it just felt, it just didn't feel clever. No. It just felt like a joke, a real throwback joke.

9:27 From prehistoric times. So this is my question, Holly. Do you think, because I believe that this is an old joke of his that he's rehashed. It's not a fresh one. It's actually from the archives. And he took this out.

9:39 And it clearly works for him in some places.

9:41 Well, has he been delivering this for years? And it gets a laugh. Do you think that there was something about this timing that made it especially painful for women?

9:52 I think Mia's right. There's never a good time, particularly on national network television, particularly on, let's be honest, SNL. is a small liberal show like it is. There's never a good time to deliver a joke like that. But I think that America, a certain portion of America, and certainly women are just not in the mood. We're just not in the mood for that with a lot of things that are going on in our culture at the moment.

10:16 And in the interest of pointing at things that you love and uplift you rather than just raging about things that you hate and make you furious. And this did actually make me a bit furious. Like I'm around a lot of young girls who wear those shorts. They wear those shorts because they're in fashion, right? Because the people that they look at at TikTok are wearing those shorts.

10:34 All he did is confirm all your worst thoughts about the judgments that men will make on a woman's character and all the different, you know, purely from what she's wearing. So we all know that, right? But so he's allowed to make that joke. And then women in general are allowed to go back, mate. And they have. What has brought me a lot of joy over the past 24 hours is all the female comedians absolutely owning him, which I think is fair game. He is fair game, mate.

11:02 Not to be, not for like death threats and violence, but to just be roundly have the piss ripped out of him for being a sad little man. I'm here for that. Here's some of it.

11:11 Here's some of what the female comics have said.

11:14 I've just come out of my first trimester.

11:15 I've been catching up on some of the news and Shane Gillis, fellow comedian, told me that women are wearing shorts to the gym.

11:23 Above the knee shorts, lads.

11:25 Not basketball shorts.

11:26 Above the knee.

11:27 At the gym.

11:28 In front of people.

11:29 Skanks.

11:33 Skanks. What's fucking next?

11:35 You want to open your own bank account? The right to vote.

11:38 What I would say to Shane McGillis is, My God, if you think they look like whores, you should see women at the swimming pool.

11:48 I know, I know.

11:50 We're not going low.

11:53 And we want to empower people. And the body shaming's not right. We've never been to the gym.

12:05 You guys been to the gym recently? Yeah, they let women in there. And I get mad about that for reasons I don't quite understand. It's like we want women to look a certain way, and then when they look that way, we call them whores. Why aren't you guys laughing? Relax, I'm a comedian, and a comedian is someone who calls women whores, and then you all laugh.

12:28 Bravo.

12:29 That's all I have to say. To the female comedians of the world.

12:33 I love that because when I first heard about this and I didn't want to do it on the show today until you said this.

12:40 Clever way of doing it. But I was just like, I resent being played.

12:45 Like I resent having to now go, well, that's not great.

12:49 And why did he do this?

12:50 And women and It's just like I feel like I'm being fucking used to make him more famous.

12:56 Yeah.

12:57 Among men because he knows his audience and he's like, look at how much I pissed off the ladies. Yes, exactly.

13:03 It makes him a bit of an anti-hero. So in a way, just better to laugh at the dude. Just better to laugh not with him but at him.

13:09 At him.

13:10 There's a link to all those comedians in the show notes if you feel like having an actual laugh.

13:16 In a moment, what is collective effervescence and why is it Jessie's worst nightmare? I've been behaving a little bit strangely lately. I'm watching a show that I really don't particularly enjoy, even though I don't have a lot of time. I'm watching UK Celebrity Traders.

13:34 How could you not enjoy that show, Mia? It's everything.

13:38 It's fine.

13:39 But the reason I'm watching it is because I read a sub stack by a writer called Rebecca Nicholson, and she talked about collective effervescence, which is something she says it's the connection you feel when you're part of a group of people experiencing an intense emotion. And she hooked it off UK Celebrity Traders, right? And I thought that sounded lovely because it's this massive phenomenon. And, you know, I do love to get on board a phenomenon because I am very much at heart a sheep. And last year's Celebrity Traders final on the BBC got over 15 million viewers, which is unheard of, apparently, for anything other than football, where I will draw my line at.

14:19 And that's live, like, what do you call that now? Concurrent viewers, like while it was being.

14:26 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:27 If you voted in streaming, catch up, all that stuff, it would have been more than that.

14:31 Loads more.

14:32 And I've been thinking about this idea of collective engagement.

14:37 It's not a new term.

14:38 It was actually coined in 1912 by a sociologist called Emile Durkheim. And he describes collective effervescence as something that emerges among people engaged together in a successful ritual. A wide range of emotions can qualify, however, including sadness and vengeance as well as joy. The point is that they are intense and collectively felt. And I want to come back to the ritual aspect. in a moment, because that speaks to sport, that speaks to watching a TV show at the same time as people. But there are other times that I feel, you know, that we have experienced it collectively or that I have.

15:16 The Matildas playing in the World Cup.

15:18 100%.

15:18 The Eras Tour. I think that was probably a ritual.

15:21 I think people came away from the Eras Tour trying to explain what they'd experienced and they didn't have the language. And they were like, I was crying and I felt something spiritual. And everyone who wasn't there was like, you sound like a crazy person.

15:35 To be honest. All good big concerts are like that. Like if you are in a room with a whole lot of people who are loving and the reason you're there, you've opted in because you all love this thing and it delivers, which it doesn't always, of course, but it delivers, that term is so perfect.

15:54 I would say there's something about music that does that.

15:56 And sport, as Mia said. I think that that term, collective effervescence, explains sport full stop.

16:03 It's like why sport?

16:04 It does.

16:05 And I think it also can explain religion in some cases.

16:10 And I think it's what I never understood about sport and where I've made mistakes in the past where I've been critical of it or dismissive of it or disparaging of it is because I've not valued that enough. And I think that anything that brings people together and, There's something really, a sense of belonging.

16:31 I think we're all looking for that.

16:33 And I think that what technology and our phones have taken away from us is opportunities to do that. Because do you think it's the same if you're all sitting at home watching something on your couch?

16:44 Can you have collective effervescence? Emile Durkheim would be rolling in his grave.

16:55 Why?

16:56 Because that's not what he meant. He meant in person. And I think he meant this communal, almost like spiritual experience. I agree with you that I feel it to an extent with the traitors. But is there something, when I was reading about this, I felt a bit sad because.

17:13 I thought, I don't do this enough.

17:15 I wish there was more of this in my life.

17:17 And I think that there is an in-person element to this because I was thinking about how during the Football World Cup, as it got to the pointy end, I started to get anxious and sad about the fact it was going to finish. And that was not because, I mean, I do like football, but it was more because of the connections I was having with people because of it.

17:37 So even though I watched a lot of those games like alone pretty much in my house because of the weird times they were on and stuff, the fee then you'd go to work and you'd talk to everybody about it then you could talk to your friends about it it would build in real life connections the same with a show like traders which obviously i am on board with i'm already getting anxious about oh but if they and there are no spoilers in what i'm about to say don't worry but i'm like oh imagine if they voted out all the traders really would the show finish would it finish i don't want it to finish because it's like I really enjoy that it finishes and I want to go listen to everything about it. Then I want to talk to all my friends about it. And

18:12 it is that collective experience because you're right, Mia, I think that what the massive success of something like that does is it reminds us of what's been taken from us by this fragmented culture and we want it back. We want it back.

18:25 Yes.

18:25 We're hungry for it.

18:26 It's also the ritual of it, right? Because it's a ritual of every week. But to the point of football or you experience it at concerts or theatre, it's the dissolving of personal boundaries. It's like... suddenly you feel like part of something bigger than yourself. And there's this, they call it like emotional contagion, where you've been in certain, like I went and saw The Lion King recently, and there are parts where you just feel like bursting into tears.

18:54 You're like, why am I going to cry right now?

18:55 A lot of the parts.

18:56 Yeah.

18:57 I feel that way often when I.

18:58 go to a little kid's concert, like if I go and see the Wiggles or something and they come on the stage and I just want to cry and I don't know why.

19:04 Because the joy is, you know, it infects you.

19:07 You're very emotional.

19:08 You can feel all the emotion. You know where I feel it is at our live shows.

19:13 Yeah.

19:13 That's where I've really felt it.

19:14 On Saturday night I felt it hard when I went to Unleashed Spring Fling, which is like our 80s dance party, which is like three, it was 300 women in a room.

19:24 All celebrating, all dancing to the time warp and, you know, the nut bush.

19:30 And it was that sense of everyone was dressed in 80s clothes and everybody that was there, you know, unless she's Gen X, everyone was there, knew we had that shared experience, even if we didn't know each other. And I don't even mean the shared experience of the night, but the shared experience of our memories.

19:48 Of the Rocky Horror Picture Show and Downing Street. the nut bush and wearing these clothes.

19:52 And I'm feeling it again because I thought this was interesting in that it can also be about sadness or grief.

19:59 I feel it at funerals. That's the last time I felt it. I was thinking about The Lion King and then I went, oh, I feel collective effervescence at funerals.

20:07 I feel it at the moment because... my son's doing his HSC.

20:11 And so I've got this connection, like every school kid I see on their way to their final exams and every parent of a child doing their final exams, I feel very connected to.

20:23 I wonder if this a little bit explains moths. I feel very connected with.

20:29 People in terms of having something to talk about.

20:33 Yeah.

20:33 I hope that out loud gives people a level of collective effervescence. I don't want that to sound like up ourselves.

20:41 Should that be our new tagline?

20:42 Yeah, it's true.

20:44 Yes.

20:45 Collective effervescence for all. Come join our bubble.

20:49 I think it's like if you've got a thing that you ritually engage with. So like say if you, you know, that podcast that I am, Okay.

20:58 If we don't say so ourselves.

20:59 Yeah, but if I think about podcasts that I love, right?

21:01 I agree.

21:02 And I listen to it this time and this time and this time, and then I talk to people about it.

21:06 That's the key, isn't it, Hol?

21:08 It's the communication afterwards. It's the text about, can you believe they said that?

21:12 Oh my God, this has happened.

21:14 So the Sydney Olympics and the Matildas, even though I wasn't, even though people might consume the whatever it is alone- It's when it crosses over and you can talk to people on the train, on the bus, in the kitchen, at drop-off, and you've all got the same experience because now everything's so fragmented. One word of caution, though, I think that vengeance, it was interesting that it mentioned vengeance, I think that the.

21:38 Dark side of collective effervescence is pylons.

21:41 Yes.

21:42 Where everyone gets a sense of community and.

21:45 Shared intense emotion from attacking who we're attacking today.

21:49 We were just laughing at those female comics. There was a little sprinkle of collective effervescence in there, right?

21:53 Definitely.

21:54 Which is that you feel as though you are part of something bigger than yourself.

21:58 Yeah.

21:58 You feel seen. You feel like someone's putting words around something. And I guess also cults. Very, very effervescence. Collective effervescence. If everyone feels like they're... part of something, it can turn very sinister.

22:11 It's very energising. You're right, Mia, about the dark side of that, is that it's very energising to be united in anger, judgment, vengeance. It's true. It really is. So you have to kind of watch where you're getting your thrills.

22:26 And in sadness, though.

22:27 I know that after December 14, after the Bondo massacre happened, that need to gather, those senses of gathering.

22:37 I felt it there.

22:37 Yeah. And I went to a lot of commemorative services and gatherings and it felt comforting. It felt devastating, but it felt less lonely in that you were sharing it as a collective experience. And I think that's also, if you, I went to a funeral this week, there is also joy there because everybody in that room is remembering the wonderful things about this person who's died and also experiencing the sadness. And yeah, there's a lot of comfort in that.

23:10 It's like the dissolving as well of ego. It's like your ego disappears and you just become kind of this like giant organism.

23:18 So do you think I'll start enjoying Celebrity Traders more?

23:21 Well, here's what I want. I find it really interesting that you don't like those kind of reality shows, but you want to join the gang. So you're like, maybe I will change. And it's really because maybe you don't have to join the gang. You know what I mean? Like you don't have to be part of that.

23:35 You know how suggestible I am.

23:37 I know.

23:37 So I'm also like, well, if you like it and you like it and so many other people like it, I'm sure.

23:43 I'll like it.

23:44 Why don't you read some commentary and then come into the office and just regurgitate it? Like, can you believe Richard?

23:54 It is tricky for us because we're on that time delay, right? So we're also, because we are being fragmented with it. When I come in and I go, oh, my God, Jessie, what are you up to? Like that kind of stuff.

24:05 Yes, and it's confusing because you can watch it on TenPlay for free, but I'm watching it on Paramount Plus because I've already got a subscription and you can watch it without ads, but it takes a lot longer because the episodes drop much later. Yes.

24:15 So it's tricky. It's messing with our effervescence.

24:18 That's my point.

24:18 That's my problem.

24:19 I'm out of sync.

24:20 What we should do is we should save them up, watch them together.

24:24 No, we need to choose a night. Everyone goes on a Monday night, we watch it, and then we come into the office and we talk about it.

24:30 Yeah. Prince Harry is getting paid to talk about his mum. Cue how very day. My friend Prince Harry is now a freelance royal, as I think we're all across, right?

24:43 Freelance royal. He's not even contracted.

24:47 He's a freelance royal. And one of the new entries into his portfolio career is as an expert, and he is giving a masterclass in grief. Now, let me give you some context here. Masterclass.com is a platform that lots of big names partner with to go and deliver a masterclass. For example, Kim Kardashian has one called The New Rules of Business, The Ten Commandments.

25:13 I've done two.

25:13 Do you want to know what they are?

25:14 Yes.

25:15 I did Margaret Atwood taught me how to write a book and I did Judd Apatow taught me how to write comedy.

25:23 There you go.

25:23 I did Anna Wintour. I forget what she did.

25:26 I was going to say. She taught you how to be cool.

25:29 Clearly her expertise was wasted on me.

25:31 Martha Stewart can teach you, has one called Think Like a Boss, Live Like a Legend. Sign me up. I'm like, that is the one I'm doing. What would yours be about? Mine would be about Prince Harry. Like, obviously.

25:43 What would yours be about?

25:44 You give him Masterclass. Copenhagen Fashion Week.

25:47 I feel like I could do one on twins. You could. Just twin facts.

25:51 Yes.

25:52 So, Harry's is with an actual expert, Dr. Mary Frances O'Connor. She is a grief neuroscientist, psychologist, and the author of The Grieving Brain and the Grieving Body. So, she's bringing the expertise.

26:04 I'm glad to hear that.

26:05 Yep, and Harry's bringing the lived experience. Here is a little bit of the trailer.

26:10 I couldn't remember my mum's laugh.

26:11 I couldn't remember what she looked like.

26:14 I felt like I had to be sad in order to prove to her that I missed her.

26:21 Oh, I actually feel like crying.

26:23 It's really sad, right? He is getting paid, of course, for this, like as you would because it's work. Of course. Not clear how much, but others have got six or seven figures or a share of the subscription deal. And then there are also two charity partners attached to this.

26:35 I reckon he wouldn't have done it for less than half a mil.

26:38 Yeah, don't you think?

26:39 For sure.

26:39 Yeah.

26:40 As with anything Harry and Meghan, though, and as you've heard, it's very vulnerable. And during that, for those who are listening, not watching, there was vision of Diana, vision of his mom in that trailer. So she was evoked, as it were. But as with anything Harry and Meghan related. Some commentators and maybe some siblings sitting in some other castles somewhere else have their hair on fire over this. Some sample headlines.

27:02 Harry selling his memories of Diana feels wrong. He's desperate for cash. Prince Harry torched as grief grifter. Overpaid Princess Diana masterclass. The course itself looks very credible and helpful. Using Diana for visuals in the promo feels kind of what you're... But it kind of feels like what the money's.

27:22 For, right?

27:22 Yeah.

27:23 I'm going to re-up my bid. I think at least a million.

27:26 So I want to know what we think about this because surely he's entitled to talk about his mum, right? As he has already done in his book and in his docos. These are his memories to do what he wants with, aren't they, Mia?

27:39 It's also his experience. I think that there's a few things to unpack here.

27:43 First is.

27:45 I find that our relationship, and I'll put myself in this as well, with Harry and Meghan is very complicated and very conflicted because we don't want them to get public money because they're not working royals. So how very dare the government pay for his security? But then we don't want them to earn money either because someone's got to pay for the security.

28:07 And so I don't.

28:10 Disparage him or criticize him or Megan for earning money off their own lived experience like this.

28:16 Is his story that's his IP right.

28:18 And say what you want about Harry and people don't have to like him or agree with every decision that he's made but the man knows a lot about grief and what happened to him was deeply deeply tragic and people who have experienced profound grief are I think, have access to a certain level of wisdom that can be so generously shared with others.

28:41 Do you think, Jessie, that his experience of grief is completely singular except for perhaps William. But even that, I mean, I suppose everybody's.

28:50 Experience of grief is singular. Everyone is completely singular, yeah. Yeah, that's true.

28:54 And I guess what he said about I can't remember her laugh and then he said I didn't cry for 20 years.

28:59 And this is why grief support groups exist, right, is that when people experience incredible grief, there is something– so alienating about it. You feel as though you're the only person who's feeling like that. And that's why there are groups of people who have lost children or people who have lost mothers or, and there are theories and processes that can really help. I remember this year we lost someone close to us and I was talking to a And we're talking about the theory of, it's called the ring theory of grief.

29:31 Do you remember this? People who are on the inside.

29:33 Remind me.

29:33 I do remember liking this a lot.

29:34 The ring theory of grief is that the person who is closest, so let's say when Diana died. um Harry uh Harry and William uh were probably at the closest the inner circle right and then you go out and you might go Charles Charles and and her brother and family and then you go out out out And then.

29:53 That ring spreads, in that particular case, all over the world and all the people who took the flowers. But those people think they're in the middle, but they're right on the outside.

30:02 And the rules of the ring theory of grief is that you comfort in and dump out. So your job is... is to go as, you know, Harry's friend.

30:13 Yeah.

30:13 You're grieving too because you might have known Diana, but your job is to.

30:16 Because you're in a further... You're in a more outer ring.

30:20 So it's like a social rule.

30:21 Oh, I like that.

30:22 And it's really, really helpful because with this... This is why your leaderboard and hierarchy can come in really handy because sometimes with grief there is a hierarchy and when everyone knows it.

30:31 I've always thought that.

30:32 Yeah.

30:32 When everyone knows it, you go, all right, I'm not going to dump on you because you're actually closer. I'm going to comfort you and I'm going to dump on the people who are further out than me.

30:41 Okay.

30:42 I think that theory is 100% solid and it's used by lots of counsellors and I think it's like a really helpful thing for us in our real lives. Harry and William.

30:51 Mm-hmm.

30:53 Are both in that center of grief, right? And the criticism of Harry, and I'm not saying that I agree with this, because I don't really, but is that of those two sons, obviously, they're in very different positions. One of them is monetizing their experience of grief, and one of them is not. Now, he's allowed to do that.

31:14 But the thing is, is that you've the context here is that the Diana industry is still very strong. So we spoke recently about the book that's just come out that, diana's brother wrote called swan song that book has been so unbelievably successful its first week in the uk has broken all records for non-fiction surprised and that sold way over a hundred thousand copies it is top of the charts it is the only book that has sold more than prince harry's memoir so what that tells you is that the diana industry is still pumping.

31:49 And people are making money and people are making.

31:51 Money now It has also been credibly reported that Harry is working on a documentary for next year about Diana. What I thought when I saw those figures about Charles's sales, as in Diana's brother's sales, is that Harry should write another book. He should write another memoir and it should just be about his mom. It would absolutely go insane. Anyway, so the credible reports that he's making that doco for next year, which is the 30th anniversary, that's a monetizable effort.

32:17 Netflix are allegedly involved. I understand why there is a bit of discomfort about it because sharing your experience of grief is an amazing public service. Charging for it is something a little bit different.

32:32 This is something that I reckon plays out in ordinary lives all the time, which is I don't believe that you can police how someone else chooses to grieve. I understand what you're saying and you know how I feel about capitalism. I'm on the record.

32:46 But.

32:47 Harry has never said, yes, Harry has never said I, the grief belongs to me or I'm grieving harder than William. Some people grieve loudly and some people grieve quietly. And some people, you know, I've seen this. Some people want to grieve on Instagram and other people don't. And then there are comments and there are remarks. And I just reckon do what you have to do. It's the most awful thing to have lost a mother at that age.

33:14 I do think he has something to, um, tell us and to teach us. And he's kind of, you know, everyone else has made money off Diana's death.

33:22 Yeah, I don't think it's fair to compare him to William at all, even though I understand why some people do, because only one of them needs to make money.

33:31 Full stop.

33:31 Yes.

33:32 One of them has explained the money that William has access to.

33:37 So William as the heir, he has an enormous private fortune.

33:41 A billion dollars?

33:41 Yeah.

33:42 He gets public funding and he has an enormous private fortune because it's linked to all the land that he owns.

33:48 Yeah.

33:49 Harry's not poor.

33:51 He's not poor, but he has to earn money. Yes. Like he really has to earn money. He doesn't have a regular income. He doesn't, of course he's not poor, but only one of them has to sell their memories.

34:04 I don't think he did this for money. I reckon he did this because.

34:07 Oh, no, I think he completely did it for me.

34:09 No, I reckon that Harry is the kind of guy who works with like, not a life coach, but like some kind of.

34:15 Oh, definitely.

34:16 Like counsellor psychologist who's like, what do you believe in? What are your values, Harry? And he's like, I want to help people work through grief. Because if you wanted to go, what is the most famous example of grief in the world, you would point to Harry.

34:27 But, you know, you're not an expert.

34:30 Isn't everyone an expert?

34:32 No. One of the criticisms of this was that he talked about his experience using ayahuasca and other kinds of drugs to combat his grief. And the expert, Mary Frances, was like, yeah, I'm not really sure about that. And there's not a lot of scientific evidence. And so.

34:53 I'm relieved because most masterclasses are just the celebrity.

34:57 Just came with her commandments.

34:58 Correct. Just down with her glasses.

35:01 And I am relieved that there's an expert there. But what's interesting to me also, because I always think about this in terms of brands, and when I said he did it for money, I think two things are true.

35:10 I think you're right. I think that he does want to help.

35:13 I really do think he does. And I think he wants people to see him and he wants his.

35:18 Experiences To mean something, yeah. To be acknowledged and to mean something. I agree.

35:21 I think he also needs money. But, Hol, I want to ask you, the brand of Harry is about grief and about grievance. Does that work when the Harry that we all love, or the public love, certainly in Britain... is knock about scamp, Harry?

35:40 I think he's trying to do both. I think that if you listen to the podcast he did last year with Joe Marla, if you look at him when he's at public events, he tries to bring that side of himself out. But there's no question, I think that Jesse's right, that the Californication of Harry, which is like the therapist and the life coach and the ayahuasca and stuff, has got him going, there are going to be branches to my income stream. And I think you're both right, and I think what you said is right.

36:11 Do you think I'm more right than Jesse?

36:13 I think what you nailed is that I think he did it for money and to be helpful because it could have been free, let's be honest. But what I also wonder is it must be so galling to see everyone else making money online. Yeah. Back to the rings of grief.

36:27 Yeah.

36:27 Everyone else making money off this, you know, someone who was the center of your universe, from the brother to the butler to the friends to the astrologer to the.

36:37 To Andrew Morton, to Tina Brown, every book that I've bought and read. Yes.

36:41 So it's like, there must be something so galling about that, that you must tell yourself, well, she would want me... to have my independence and she would want me to do this. So I think it's really interesting. I also think for the little clips of it I've seen, it actually looks really good.

36:56 It does.

36:57 And I think he's trying really hard to appear very, you know, serious and well-read and all those things, bless him. And I also think there's this, we all know this, there is a very invested quarter of the British media who will hate anything Harry does, no matter what it was. If you turned up for cupcakes for them, they'd all be.

37:16 Like, oh.

37:17 To me, it's very Diana coded in a way, because remember that Panorama interview? She was ahead of her time in terms of someone who was so famous being so vulnerable. And she spoke about being cheated on. She spoke about the grief of that. And she spoke about her bulimia. And to see a princess talking about an eating disorder, she was really ahead of her time. So I think that, yeah, there's a lot of Diana in this. And do you know, there's collective effervescence when Diana died.

37:49 Oh, enormous.

37:49 And even in just talking about Diana, I think when it's the anniversary next year, there will be collective effervescence then. Josie, you're probably too young to remember, but I can't remember.

37:59 I remember the funeral, watching the funeral.

38:02 Yeah, I've never.

38:04 With women, men were a bit like, but with women, it was a universal connector.

38:09 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that Harry, and he spoke about this a bit in his book, has a complicated relationship with that because it's lovely that everybody thinks so fondly of your mum and I was so devastated when you lost her. And also it's like, you did not know my mum. Your loss is not my loss. And I think there's also a resentment there. And I think that must be a very complicated little relationship.

38:33 Remember in Spare when he talked about they went, this is before her funeral even, they went to Kensington Palace and he had to shake the hands of all the people who were there crying. And he said, I was watching all these people crying and I was having to comfort them. And that goes against the circle of grief, right?

38:51 They were double wings of grief.

38:52 Yes.

38:55 Before we go today, we do have to tell you about something exciting that's happening in your feed on Sunday that we were all involved in. Do you remember me or do you remember or is it lost to our collective brain fog that we did? We've recorded a special episode all about perimenopause and menopause.

39:10 It was you, me, Jessie, who's in menopause at the moment because she's so old.

39:15 I was the curious outsider.

39:18 Yeah.

39:18 We were all different stages and it was also Lee Campbell.

39:20 We were all different stages.

39:21 I'm not in any stage.

39:22 You're pre-menopause.

39:24 Your pre-perimenopause, which everybody is basically until you hit your mid to late 40s.

39:29 And Amelia Lester.

39:30 And the five of us all gathered around this table and spoke about the different aspects of it. So you were kind of learning about it. Amelia is like possibly on the verge. I'm through to the other side.

39:43 Where are you, Hope? I'm through to the other side.

39:44 I think Lee's in it.

39:45 Lee's in the middle of it.

39:46 And it's a big, it was so eye-opening. It was in partnership with the Australian government and it is about personal experiences, what you've done in terms of going to the doctor, things that you didn't know, what kind of symptoms of it.

40:01 It was actually such a good conversation. Mia was hilarious.

40:03 Lee was great.

40:04 Anyway, it's going to drop in your feed on Sunday.

40:06 I was hilarious.

40:07 I will say that for you.

40:08 Do you know what was less hilarious?

40:09 I laughed so much.

40:10 That. When I got home, I discovered that I was wearing white jeans and I bled through them.

40:14 Yeah, that was... I don't understand.

40:15 Which is unexpected.

40:17 I swear you've been going through some sort of perimenopause for 45 years.

40:20 It was the collective effervescence from the conversation.

40:23 It's true.

40:23 It affected you.

40:24 I think I caught your hormones or something. And my body just went, you know what, it'd be fun for a long.

40:30 Let's bleed again.

40:32 It had FOMO. It was like, let me join in with the period police again. Anyway, that is all we have time for today. That's going to drop in your feed on Sunday. This has been good. It's been great. We will be back in your ears tomorrow. Love you. Goodbye.

40:48 Bye.

40:49 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.