Special Episode: Perimenopause, Out Loud

0:00 This is a special bonus episode of Mummia Out Loud in partnership with the Australian Government. This conversation is about personal experiences and general information only.

0:09 It is not medical advice.

0:10 If anything we discuss raises questions for you, please speak to a qualified health professional about your own circumstances. The symptoms we will be discussing today are common menopause-related symptoms. However, they can also be symptoms of other things. It is important you talk to a doctor to get an accurate diagnosis and care. You can also access evidence-based information and support through the Australian Government's website at health.gov.au forward slash perimenopause.

0:38 Hello and welcome to a very special bonus episode of Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's a little bit like a roundtable, except we're going to talk about perimenopause and menopause today. I want to go around the table and we're all going to share our status as women in various stages of hormonal evolution. I'll go first because I am at the earliest stage. My name is Jessie Stephens. I am 35 years old and I am currently perioding. I don't mean to like.

1:12 Like now? Now.

1:14 Now.

1:14 That's a flex.

1:16 It's relatively regular, if you were wondering. And I am about seven months postpartum. And I guess, you know, peri is probably in my future, but I'm not there yet.

1:27 Mia?

1:29 I am Mia Friedman. I am 54.

1:30 I am postmenopausal. And so I have completed my perimenopause. And menopause journeys.

1:39 So you don't have a certificate to prove this.

1:42 I should.

1:43 I should have some kind of trophy.

1:45 Something in your passport.

1:46 You should have a ticker tape.

1:47 Parade is what you should have.

1:48 Yes.

1:50 Oh, me. I am Leigh Campbell. I am 44. I'm also menstruating today. However, that has been going for about 10 days like it's the first day and it was a surprise after about seven weeks. I am the men-y part in perimenopause. Right in the middle of the road. Don't have a map.

2:09 My name is Amelia Lester. I am 43 and my period is due in about five days. They're still pretty regular, but I did forget what year it was when Lee and I were talking this morning. So Lee suggested kindly to me that I may be in Perryman.

2:24 You asked a few questions.

2:26 Very convenient because we're about to go into a session about it. I'm Holly Wainwright. I am the same age as Amir. I am also 54. I also have my I've been through it.

2:36 Bad, Sean, today.

2:38 Now, back in May 2022, so that's more than four years ago, we launched at Mamma Mia!

2:43 Very Peri.

2:45 It was a summit all about perimenopause, a word which at the time I'd never heard of and a lot of women hadn't. 15,000 women showed up, hundreds of thousands of women clicked on stories and podcast episodes about this life stage that our mothers and our mothers' mothers and our mothers' mothers' mothers went through, but they never had any language for it.

3:06 There were no online forums. There weren't.

3:10 They didn't have podcasts.

3:12 They didn't have seminars. They didn't have their special skincare.

3:15 No hashtags.

3:16 Not even WhatsApp to check with their girlfriends.

3:18 I know.

3:19 And now Mum Mayor Out Loud is working in partnership with the Australian government who want to increase community discussion and reduce stigma. And we're really good at that, guys. We're really good at the reducing stigma. And they want to help women feel more informed about perimenopause and menopause, ensuring that they're super confident in knowing where they can find help. Now, I want to start, Amelia, what age is perimen to begin? Because if I'm 35, how far away am I?

3:51 Such a good question.

3:52 Well, first of all, let's define what menopause is, and then we'll figure out what peri is. Menopause is a single point in time. It is your final period. And then perimenopause is what happens in the time leading up to that final period. And that happens until you're confirmed as having reached menopause, which is.

4:13 So that means the way that we've talked about menopause for generations is kind of wrong, right? Because we always go, she's going through menopause.

4:21 But your point is.

4:22 Menopause is actually one day, one time, one thing.

4:25 Yes.

4:25 She's going through perimenopause.

4:27 Exactly.

4:28 Now you might ask, how do you know it's your last period?

4:31 And menopause, you know you've reached menopause when you've gone 12 months after that period.

4:36 That's when you can say, okay, I have reached menopause.

4:40 That's when the medal turns up in the poster.

4:42 Exactly. So there's a bit of a joke that some women refer to Perry as their Wonder Woman era, but that's not in the superhero way, to be clear.

4:52 It's in the, I wonder.

4:54 What the heck is going on and why I came into this room, which is not something I said to you this morning.

5:00 Or what year it is.

5:04 But I should mention that everyone experiences pairing menopause and menopause differently. So we are going to be talking about a bunch of symptoms here today that you might be going through. They might include changing periods, hot flashes, night sweats, brain fog, sleep problems, emotional changes like anxiety, or in Lee's case, rage, weight and body composition changes, skin, sex, and also speak about how our relationships were impacted. And as Jessie said, this is going to be a stigma-free zone.

5:34 I also want to mention some women experience early menopause and that's defined as before 45 years. And there is also premature ovarian insufficiency, which can happen before 40 years. I think you mentioned to me that your mom went through early menopause. Some people are also going to experience medically induced menopause. And that's when you have cancer treatments or surgery that removes both ovaries and those symptoms that happen as a result of that can be very severe. Look, let's talk a bit about how the symptoms come about and how common they are. About one in two women report mild to moderate symptoms, and then around one in four women have symptoms that are actually serious enough to affect their daily activities.

6:15 So we've got enough people at the table that... Someone here went through some serious shit.

6:21 Yes, that's true.

6:22 And it's also important to know that about one in four women don't have any symptoms at all.

6:26 Oh, that's nice.

6:26 That's good.

6:27 I feel so pleased for those women.

6:29 You don't get to choose which adventure you're going on.

6:32 No, that's the only problem with this.

6:33 I think someone here's due for some good luck, though. I think I might be the one going into it with no symptoms.

6:38 I'm excited.

6:39 On average, women are going to experience symptoms for about four to six years, and the symptoms can continue for a really long time with one– 10 women experiencing symptoms for years into post-menopause.

6:50 I didn't even know that until I started researching this.

6:52 That was going to be a question for you two lovely elders.

6:55 Later, later.

6:56 Yeah, we are.

6:57 Like did you just wake up on that day and go, oh.

6:59 Wise elders at the table.

7:01 I hope you have some helpful advice there.

7:04 And look, as Jessie mentioned, there are a lot of conversations around peri right now, which is great. But the downside is it is starting to creep into marketing and certain products and potions are being pushed at you that promise a magic pill.

7:16 That's not what we're about here today.

7:18 The most important takeaway from today's episode is that you can find evidence-based information, which we love, at health.gov.au forward slash perimenopause. We're going to be speaking about perimenopause from our own experiences, but the health.gov.au forward slash perimenopause website has information on symptoms and treatments. It's got personal stories from real women all across Australia. It has information in multiple languages, information for LGBTIQA plus people and First Nations women and accessible information. It also includes information on how to find a doctor.

7:55 Can you put the link in the show notes in case people forget?

7:59 Because I will forget.

8:00 I will forget.

8:02 I want to begin by asking, Mia, why did you start talking about peri in the first place? Like when you started experiencing those symptoms, did you ever know that they were peri?

8:14 How did you come across that word?

8:15 Hmm.

8:17 I didn't know.

8:18 And that's why it can be so disorienting, I think, because you think it's a bunch of unrelated things. You think that you're emotionally unstable. So maybe you might think, oh, it's my relationship or it's work. You find yourself. With hot flushes, with some of the physical symptoms, with your skin might change, you start having brain fog. So all of these things feel unrelated and none of them feels sort of severe enough or specific enough that you could even articulate it and you don't put any of it together.

8:56 And it's not.

8:57 Until, I can't remember how I found out about this idea of perimenopause, but it wasn't until I'd been going through it for quite a few years that I kind of had heard of it, but I didn't realize that all these disparate things I was feeling was all the same thing. And so that sort of started me. I just became then very, really curious. And I knew that if I was going through this, then a lot of other women were too. And at other times when I've been going through things that I found really difficult, I've sort of turned my experience of finding answers or finding meaning in them into content and a way to sort of share them with other women.

9:38 It's such a gift because I don't want to blow smoke because anyone who listens to Out Loud, all Out Louders know that's not our dynamic is to sit here and tell me she's great.

9:45 In fact, usually the opposite.

9:47 But one of the things that stops women from talking about this is shame and embarrassment about being pigeonholed.

9:53 As old, right?

9:54 Like we are, ageism is real in all of our you know, lives and communities. And I think that this, the fact that people are talking about it now is such a gift, which you were early to Mia, to be fair, because the thing is, is that you can't, every woman has to almost make a choice this is happening to me in whatever way it's happening to me.

10:12 Do I talk about it and then kind of be holding a flag up that says, I am old, inverted commas, or do I pretend it's not happening and just push through and be.

10:22 Like, what do you mean?

10:24 And I think that that has left a lot of women in the dark.

10:27 And I think that the peri part of perimenopause was a really good on-ramp because it felt like at the time, certainly, there was less stigma around that word. It was like, like a sort of a mini menopause it was like pre literally it's a bit.

10:43 Cute i think you kind of would be cute rebranded it you were like i think we can make.

10:47 Perry cool i tried yeah.

10:49 And holly do you think that like it's only in hindsight that you notice all of the symptoms or in real time especially you're you're going through it relatively concurrently to a you know a colleague who's making all this content about it did you come across it and go oh i was like she always.

11:07 Makes such a fuss.

11:10 She's the only one to ever go through it.

11:12 I'm from Manchester. I'm like, come on. And then what always happens is about six months to a year later, I'm like, she was right.

11:22 I think one of the things.

11:23 Here, as Mia's already said, is that you start having symptoms, whatever kind of symptoms you're having, and Once you start putting it together, what a lot of women want is they then want to be able to go to a healthcare professional and maybe get a test done or something that tells them definitively this is definitely what's happening.

11:41 Now, that isn't generally how it works, right?

11:44 Because during this period of perimenopause, what we've learned is your hormones are in all kinds of flux. And so even things like blood tests won't necessarily tell you anything, which is why medical professionals will often sort of be making a call based on your age or period history, where you're at in your cycles and say, well, it's likely that these things are perimenopause. A further complication to that.

12:07 is this is very often a time in women's lives when life is very hectic. Maybe they are caring for older parents. Lee, I know that's certainly your experience. Parenting, working really hard. Life is very busy. And what women often do is we'll internalise, this is my fault. The reason I'm feeling X, Y, Z is because I'm not coping or I'm too busy or.

12:29 I'm not this, I'm not that.

12:30 And actually... It's like a little collision of all these things at once and being able to talk about it and realize, ah, and then maybe address those symptoms as separately as you can.

12:42 And what were your symptoms?

12:45 For me specifically, so it wasn't my periods for a long time because I was, like many women, I had an IUD for birth control, and that can kind of mask what's happening with your period. So I wasn't really getting periods anyway, or if I was, they were infrequent and all those things. And I think in my head also, I thought, oh, maybe that will help with my hormone stability.

13:10 So it wasn't actually my periods that gave me the clue at first. It was more for me, the symptoms were more about mood, anxiety, sleep was a massive one for me. I started to get headaches and migraines that I'd never got before. It was those kind of symptoms. And that was when I began to understand, oh, this is what's happening.

13:31 And so.

13:32 On the mood point, I guess one phrase that goes along with that is brain fog. And I guess I'm realizing in real time as we record this that I'm probably in perimenopause.

13:43 We do not self-diagnose. That's what experts are for.

13:46 My fellow 40-something.

13:48 Yes.

13:48 Tell me.

13:49 what brain fog actually feels like day to day. Brain fog, by the way, that's generally defined as like difficulty concentrating or losing your words.

13:56 How did you experience it?

13:57 Yes. I mean, I was always sort of that way inclined, but I had great tools that I'd developed over decades to kind of be hyper organized. Everyone came to me if they wanted, you know, where to go and what time. And I was that person at the airport traveling with you guys. And then slowly, frustratingly, I just couldn't call on those tools anymore. And I was like, you know, my dad's done well, my mom's done well, I've got a small child, my husband, you know, work, it's all of that sort of stuff. But Overall, like I would walk from downstairs and think, get him yogurt. And I would walk downstairs and say, yogurt, yogurt, out loud. And then I'd get to the kitchen and go, hmm, I'll do the washing up. And then he would yell out going, mom.

14:34 And I'm like, oh, you're here.

14:36 It can make you feel crazy and also worried.

14:38 It's incredibly frustrating and time wasting. But for me, I mean, I think. My first symptoms was the hot flushes. I was waking up drenched, like I had gone swimming and I went to my doctor and I said, I think I've got something very, very bad with me, you know, going on. I was like, no, it can't be peri.

14:54 And it wasn't until I again pieced a lot of things together, but I didn't want it to be peri because I feel like it's a huge subset of the public and particularly maybe the other gender that go, Oh, Perry, menopause. Oh, well that's just going to happen to you. So like, that's not a reason for me to, you know, cut you any slack or that's not an excuse. It's just kind of like one big period type thing. I didn't want it to be Perry because then it's like, why can't I cope better?

15:19 Before Lee, when Holly mentioned sleep, that seemed to, um, uh, resonate with you. And I, my experience of, um, I had terrible pregnancy insomnia. So I felt how hormones can impact sleep in a way I never would have anticipated.

15:35 What happened to your sleep? I've never been a great sleeper. And look, to be honest, I just didn't think Perry would touch me. I have endometriosis. I've had several removal surgeries. I've had years and years of assisted fertility. So I was like, come for me, whatever. I'm good with these hormone things. And then I was like, whoa. I've never been a great sleeper. I'm averaging about two hours a night, sometimes three. which is just not very good. And I have to wear a special little monitor from my doctor. Yeah.

16:03 I've always been a great sleeper, though.

16:05 Yeah. Well, that's it. And when it came for me, that was a big shock. That was another symptom. Gosh, I've forgotten about so many of these things. But the lack of sleep, I've always, no matter what's been going on in my life, been able to sleep really, really well. And the insomnia combined with the night sweats often.

16:24 Yeah.

16:26 The nights where it's been different to hot flashes.

16:28 Totally different.

16:29 Which usually come in the day.

16:32 Yes.

16:32 And, yeah, just those nights I found incredibly tough.

16:35 Because for me, I used to be able to fall asleep and I'd wake up worrying just at my normal nature. But this is falling asleep now.

16:42 Yeah, right.

16:42 And I'm quite sleepy at like four in the morning. And with a seven-year-old, they're up at five.

16:45 That was my hormonal, like the actual, it was like there was a switch and I was like I.

16:50 Can no longer flick it and just go. My brain just went, I can't do it.

16:54 Yeah.

16:55 Has anyone had the, I know you said Holly, obviously you had the IUD, so you didn't have the periods go haywire.

17:02 Did anyone experience that? The heavy, the.

17:04 I did.

17:05 I had flooding and that wasn't in the brochure. I thought menopause and peri was when your periods sort of stopped and I've never had heavy periods. I've been fortunate enough to have a really low maintenance cycle. It's always been pretty regular. Hasn't given, you know, not many cramps, not, not very heavy. And I suddenly found in my 40s I was absolutely flooding, they call it.

17:31 So kind of like adolescence.

17:32 No, no, much worse for me because I wasn't like that in adolescence.

17:36 And I remember that that happened to my mum as well and she had to have a hysterectomy because they didn't have hormonal IUDs then.

17:44 Which could– stop your period basically.

17:49 So I didn't know what to do.

17:51 Like I was just, yeah, bowled over by that.

17:54 And then I became really anemic and with all the blood loss and it also just, I wrecked all my clothes.

18:01 It's very confusing because what happened to me once I, because I had my IUD removed and I did, not everybody does, but I did contract get, I think we call it now MHT, menopausal hormone therapy, which I also, here's another misconception is I thought that was one thing. Like I thought you went to the doctor and you said, I've heard there's this magical treatment, give me a pill.

18:25 And like, it's actually lots of different things. And so I did not know that.

18:28 And levels and options.

18:30 And you can take this, but not that, and that, but not this and this together and whatever. And so I And then I had this weird experience where I had my first period in years.

18:40 And I was in my late 40s or maybe even 50. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm pregnant.

18:44 My boobs were hurting. And I kept saying, why are my boobs hurting for the first time in all this time? And I've got friends who won't have period for months and then they'll have a really debilitating one. Like it just suddenly seems to set everything, you know, in a real whirlwind.

19:00 Yeah.

19:00 Holly, you mentioned MHT. Yeah, it does have a menopausal hormone therapy. And people might be wondering what happened to HRT, which is hormone replacement therapy.

19:10 HRT has entered a new era. It's had a glow up. It is now MHT.

19:14 And that is one option a doctor might discuss with you to help manage symptoms. There's lots of non-hormonal medicines and lifestyle strategies. I'm curious, Mia, did you try anything else that you found worked remedies that.

19:29 worked before?

19:30 No, I'm also on MHT. I didn't think, a lot of women don't go on it because we did have some bad press after some inaccurate information was published from some flawed studies.

19:44 So there are a lot of myths around MHT.

19:46 And also a lot of the doctors I spoke to were I was doing the very PERI summit, they said women will often feel like, oh, it's not bad enough for me to take something, I can just put up with it.

20:00 Because my mother did and because my mother's mother did. I think that's an element too, is that you feel like, well, why do I need it?

20:07 Well, no, my mother did go on what was then called HRT. She was probably unusual for her age. She's 80 now and she's still on it. And so I straightaway went to her and asked her about it for the first time and was quite surprised to find out that she was on it.

20:25 My mum was too.

20:27 And so you have to, not you have to, but like a doctor can prescribe it long term?

20:32 Yes, but what a lot of women do, including myself, is they'll try different things. Because I've also been on MHT and then I've also kind of been doing Like this sounds strange because obviously without going into specifics, which we don't want to do to give any kind of specific advice. It sounds a bit strange, but you can kind of do a bit of this one and a bit of that one.

20:50 Like you can.

20:50 Mix and match.

20:51 It's tailored to your own.

20:52 Yes, and most women I know to the point of doing other things are doing that too. So I know a lot of women who are changing lifestyle things around sleep hygiene, around diet, you know.

21:03 Our obsession with protein and all of those things.

21:05 Oh, lifting weights.

21:06 Lifting weights and, you know, magnesium and lots of different supplements. People are often doing a lot of things because what a lot of women will find is is that soldiering on and pushing through and all the strategies that they've always employed throughout the rest of their busy adult lives just suddenly are not.

21:23 Working for them.

21:24 And so sometimes they have to make big changes. Alcohol is something that a lot of women change their relationship to at this time. Exercising, not for a different reason than maybe they were before. Maybe before it was all about weight management. So I think that it's one of those times where Women need to understand the sort of grab bag that's available to them. And there isn't just one magic fix that will fix everything for everybody.

21:48 We're all quite unique.

21:49 But I want to draw out that point you made that things that have always worked for you may not work for you anymore.

21:56 Yes.

21:56 And across different states. different parts of life diet exercise sleep relationships the big message from experts you may have to change how you do things even.

22:08 Your skin care you need to change i'll tell you about that later it's not as important but even if you've.

22:13 Loved it for 20 years you know we talk sometimes on out loud about like the different eras that you're in and how often it's the resistance to the change in those areas that can cause a lot of the tension And I think that's one of the things that's quite confronting when you enter this era where you're suddenly, maybe more than any other time, except maybe teenage years and maybe pregnancy, you're suddenly aware of.

22:35 How much your hormones impact everything.

22:38 And so things that you thought were your personality, maybe you thought, I've got a high sex drive or I love hardcore exercise or I don't need much sleep or these stories we tell ourselves about ourselves can suddenly be really thrown into into chaos by your hormones. And so I think it's one of those eras again where when you finally go, hold on, I have to ask for help, find out some help, listen to the right people and make some changes is the thing that will help it.

23:08 Be easy.

23:09 And it's not your imagination. That's the other thing that experts keep stressing. It's because estrogen and progesterone, which are hormones made by the ovaries, they're going to shift.

23:18 They're shifting. That's what's happening in perimenopause.

23:21 And that shift of those two hormones is leading to all sorts of other changes and symptoms in your life.

23:27 I'm interested. I really want to get to Skinly. It's low down the.

23:32 List, but hey, I thought I would have that covered.

23:36 Well, I wanted to talk about body because a lot of women in this stage of life talk about weight management, about exercise, about food, as you said, Holly.

23:46 Did you notice... your.

23:48 Body changing in ways that felt foreign because again that feels almost adolescence coded for.

23:55 Me it's my strength it's my knees it's you know I've got a seven-year-old son it's literally what I can physically do I'm not all that great at exercising regularly but I could always you know pretty much get by and run if I needed to whatever but I'm realizing now that wow like I I can't really lift that or that hurts or I shouldn't sleep that way. And I mean, I think that's just part of getting older.

24:15 And the bone density thing.

24:17 Just honestly. And it all happens at once. And I was just thinking, you know, my hardest part was like, I don't like this. I don't like her. And it was me against my body. And I was just, I don't like her. I don't want her to be here. When am I coming back? And then you kind of realize, oh, I got to live with her now or get along with her or treat her well.

24:36 Weight is a big thing.

24:38 And although we all, you know, obviously here we don't like talking about weight and diets in any kind of punitive or judgmental way, but it can really mess with your self-image when things– maybe you've been somebody who, you know, you've exercised really regularly and eaten in a certain way and it's always kept you in a space that makes you feel quite confident.

24:55 Well, you've got a wardrobe full of clothes that fit you.

24:57 And suddenly that shifts.

24:59 The thing is that– and I also have interviewed some experts about this for Very Perry and other things– is that then what will often happen because– Again, our internal monologue is always.

25:09 Well, I must eat less.

25:10 I must deprive myself. My body has changed now. And all the experts say that is not the thing to do. Women often will slip straight into like a self-deprivation mode.

25:21 Restriction or diet culture.

25:22 Exactly, because particularly women, Gen X women like us, we're very primed for that.

25:28 Millennials are not at all primed.

25:34 They'll say it's not about that. It's about changing the things that you eat. eat that will work with your body in a better way. And so it's the last thing you should do is be punishing yourself. But it is just true that sometimes it's very confronting to be... It's very common for women, for example, to hold more weight around their middle. And again, it's related to hormones.

25:54 It's not about you being a lazy person or whatever story you're telling yourself in your head. And so that means, you know, maybe shifting in the foods that you eat, but not depriving yourself.

26:05 Mia, you've always been an exerciser. How have you changed your exercise routine through this period? I've started lifting weights because you have to.

26:13 You're such a cliche.

26:14 I'm such a cliche.

26:15 Do you enjoy it? I do now. Have you gotten to enjoy it? Yeah, I do now. Once I found sort of a new routine.

26:24 I actually like feeling strong and it was true what you say about exercising for different reasons now. You know, sometimes Luna, my granddaughter, is at my house and, you know, I'm doing my weights and I say, yeah, I've got to be strong so I can.

26:41 Carry you, which is true because she's heavy.

26:44 Like she's three now and it's like you've got to be strong and that idea of you want your body– It's not about how it looks anymore. It's about what it can do. And I know that sounds so obvious. And that's true.

26:59 How we're meant to think about our body. But let's be honest, we don't.

27:03 But what it can do, I think also because you can like go to sleep and wake up in the morning and your neck's out.

27:08 And you're just like, what happened? Oh, I just slept.

27:11 So you become more aware of your body.

27:14 The only other time I was this aware of my body was during pregnancy.

27:18 Yeah, it is.

27:19 You become more respectful of your body and more protective and more interested in taking care of it.

27:26 Of course, you can also focus on jumping, running, building bone strength.

27:31 Jumping's very challenging.

27:32 It's true.

27:35 Let's go to skin because I really want to because on the pregnancy thing too, like suddenly your skin texture is completely different.

27:42 There's pigmentation, there's da-da-da.

27:43 Like your skin and what you put on it and what you do completely changes. I imagine that when your hormones go a bit haywire, that happens again. Lee, what happens to your skin.

27:52 Through this period?

27:53 I honestly thought I would have that part covered. When I started to go through peri, I was like, right, at least I'll still look good. I've always had very resilient combination skin. And then we say overnight. It wasn't overnight. It was pretty sudden. My skin became drier. but then still oily, sensitive, reactive. And this is just for me.

28:10 Your skin, like you've put everything on your skin.

28:13 You'd think it would have some resilience.

28:14 Well, now I'm too tired. But no, it's very common. Because your hormones play such a huge role in your skin, things will change. You might have products you've loved for decades and you're not really a shopper and change. You're not into skincare. And then suddenly they're not working for you anymore. They're irritating. It's not that you have to go and get a new whole skincare range, but it's just we're generally more sensitive and just might need to bring back percentages or just have a play. And then with the hydration, up the hydration. I've never needed many hydrating products before. In my job as a beauty expert, it's wonderful. I've got a whole new face to test products I couldn't use.

28:46 Oh, because you've got dry skin now. Yeah.

28:48 That used to be too rich for me. That's fantastic. But I was really shocked at how much I needed to alter my own routine, knowing what I do know about beauty. Not needing to, but, you know, it's just– A serum I loved six months ago just now makes me react.

29:01 How about you, Mia?

29:02 Same.

29:02 Yeah?

29:03 Same.

29:03 The good news is that I simplified my skincare. It's much cheaper now.

29:07 All those sort of fancy active products just didn't agree with my skin anymore.

29:12 So it's like every part of.

29:14 You changes and the way you feel, the way you look, your skin, your insides, your outsides, and that can be really quite confronting.

29:23 Speaking of insides, sex.

29:25 Oh.

29:25 Can we talk about sex? I can.

29:26 I've got some good news.

29:28 Oh.

29:28 I was on some hormones, gosh, for four or so years and I've just recently changed the last three months, hence the weird period because we're still in the phase, and I found my right hormone. hormones. For me, at the moment, I think my husband would say because I will have sober sex and, like, even in the middle of the day that I'll initiate.

29:47 So your libido's back?

29:48 Yeah, but it never.

29:50 Really went anywhere. I just didn't like him at all because he, like, left the ham unwrapped in the fridge and I'm like, do you know how expensive ham is?

29:57 Is that a euphemism?

29:57 No. It could be.

30:00 It could be.

30:01 Meanwhile, the house is an absolute mess because there's yogurt everywhere because I've forgotten what I was doing in every room. But the ham.

30:07 I'm so glad the ham's back. The ham.

30:10 That point on sex is really interesting because, you know, we talked about brain fog before. That goes away, actually. The brain fog eventually goes away for most women too.

30:18 I can't wait for that part because that hasn't happened. But for me, you know, a little while ago I was like, I don't care if I never do that ever again. Great, whatever. I'm done with that. Like, sure, you're my husband. Great. But now I'm like, oh.

30:29 Oh, you're pretty cute. I think with.

30:31 The emotional overlay of peri and menopause and then also just that life stage, you know, if you've been with the same person for a really long time. So I think all of those things can coalesce and sometimes it can be confusing. I've got a lot of girlfriends who are single or who are in new relationships in peri or menopause and I just– you know, at it like rabbits all the time. So it's not necessarily, some women describe having a big surge.

31:02 In their sex drive.

31:03 That's like I'm thinking all fours, the Peri-Medicals book.

31:06 Oh, yeah.

31:07 It's like for some people it's this like.

31:09 Miranda July's book, that was great.

31:10 Like this change in desire that's really interesting.

31:14 It's true, but there are a lot of women who say their libido goes AWOL at this time and that also messes with the sense of self stuff.

31:23 Mm-hmm.

31:24 So their libido can go AWOL.

31:26 And if you marry that with some other common symptoms like vaginal dryness, the thinning of the walls, sex can be more painful than it was in the past. And again, these are things that often women blame themselves for, they'll be like, but I don't really want to do it. And when I do it, it's not as good, but I've got to do it because, and again, those are things that, as you've already said, Lee, but it doesn't have to be hormonal therapy. There are lots of other options just, you know, that can help with that. If that is something that you're really, that is really messing with your head. as does obviously a really honest conversation with your partner if you have one about it, which is hard because, again, none of this feels sexy to you,

32:07 you know. Like it doesn't feel sexy to be saying to your partner, so I'm going through this thing called perimenopause and my.

32:13 Libido is probably ebbing and flowing.

32:15 But at the same time, that's why– it's so important to keep talking about it.

32:19 And why lubricant was invented.

32:21 Exactly. Amen.

32:22 I was going to say the word lube, but I thought, no, let's leave it up to Amelia.

32:27 Have you noticed any change in your mental health more generally during this period?

32:33 Certainly, I've had periods of anxiety that I haven't had before. And that was one of the things that finally really sent me to get help is Spikes of anxiety, irritability.

32:45 Irritability, imagine that.

32:48 Well, maybe people are just being irritated.

32:50 Well, yeah.

32:51 That's also true.

32:52 People become more annoying.

32:55 There's a perfect storm right here because as your estrogen drops, often like your people-pleasing drops with it.

33:02 And this can be a challenging time. So, but yes, anxiety, overwhelm, just being teary, all of those things certainly all happened for me and was one of the drivers to really get me to go and deal with it, like talk to somebody about it in a really meaningful way. Because I was like, I don't think I can, like, we've all got, this is the thing is you can't turn your life off at this point or at any point.

33:26 You can't say, I'm going to quit my job and leave my partner and go live on a mountainside until this all passes.

33:33 Like, that is not, you know, my caring responsibilities.

33:35 I thought I was the only one that fantasized about that.

33:37 Everybody fantasized about that. But that's not reality, right? So, yes, definitely those mental health issues. And I've known people for whom it's become debilitating. I have to say, we don't want to be all doom and gloom. There are lots of people for whom it is not. But I think the fact that it is so different for different people is makes it quite tricky.

33:57 To talk about.

33:57 Isn't it interesting though, because at other stages of your life, which are enormous hormonal fluctuations, so I'm thinking adolescence and pregnancy, there is some grace, right? You go, my teenage daughter is being unhinged right now, but I know why I'm going to give her some grace, right?

34:14 I'm not going to put all these responsibilities on her.

34:17 Even with pregnancy, you go, that's a life stage that's going to pass and people will give you a seat on the bus.

34:25 But this stage, which is invisible.

34:27 But you've got to give it to yourself. That's the biggest lesson I've learned is you've got to give it to yourself and you can't resent her or what you're going through and kind of not like who you are or what you're going through. I've just had to give myself a lot of grace.

34:38 And also potentially name it, which is, I guess, what I'm realizing through this discussion.

34:44 I need to get there.

34:46 Like understanding that you are going to have these more intense moods or rapidly changing moods, panic attacks, lower self-esteem can show up.

34:54 I didn't know that.

34:55 Definitely because you are also, you know, you suddenly, you know, we're, Some of.

35:01 That's societal, right?

35:02 You're washed up.

35:03 Midlife women, we're kind of like, oh, they're a bit sad, aren't they? Societally, I mean. And yet you often have never been more experienced, wise, all of those things. But your self-esteem can plummet because you are blaming yourself for these things and going, I think I'm just losing it. I think I've just lost my edge. I think I've lost who I am.

35:22 And the self-esteem piece can also obviously really impact your relationships. And I wanted to ask each of you who've been through it, How it impacted your work, your marriage, your friendships, your.

35:35 Relationship to your children. Like how did it impact relationships?

35:39 I think all of them.

35:40 It touches everyone who's close to you, experiences it, because you can't keep a lid on things necessarily anymore. I think it's rough, particularly the people who live in your house, because it can go for years. You know, I remember having a lot of conversations with my exes around the dinner table where one of my kids would bravely say, how long does perimenopause take?

36:04 Ten years.

36:05 It can go for ten years. Okay, just asking for a friend. And so, yeah, you can be really hard to.

36:13 Live with, really hard.

36:14 To live with. And do you realise it in real time? Because even like, you know, when you're pregnant and you start crying at Nat on TV or whatever and you go, oh, there it is.

36:22 It's a pregnancy.

36:23 Like do you find, because it goes for such a long time, do you have moments where you kind of go, Oh, I really regret how I just behaved.

36:30 The thing is about perimenopause that I didn't really understand either. It literally is a roller coaster because the whole point of all of these changes we're discussing is they're about hormonal fluctuations. So when you land wherever you're going to land in your postmenopausal era, things begin to even out and you will have gained some things and lost some things.

36:48 And that's another adventure to explore.

36:51 But during the roller coaster, of course, you'll have times where you're fine, like you seem fine or you feel fine. And then you'll have times where it seems to build and get quite overwhelming. And so I think I spoke to my partner, Brent, about it a few years ago. And, you know, he's a good guy. He was just like nodding and going, sure. And you can see the fear in his eyes.

37:12 He was just like, whatever you need, babe, whatever you need.

37:15 Yeah.

37:16 But the tricky part is, it's just like every other part of a woman's life, is we don't really like having our emotions and opinions blamed on our hormones.

37:26 Do we?

37:27 You don't want it weaponized against you.

37:28 You don't want.

37:28 That kind of the eternal thing of like if you're a bit angry in a meeting for your male.

37:34 Boss to be like, oh, is it her time of the month? Like you don't want that version of it.

37:38 So that can also become quite tricky is you want people to be aware well, not everybody, but you want your people to be aware, but then you don't also want them to just write you off for a decade. Everything she says during this time is probably not accurate because that's not true either. So I think one of the things, again, understanding that this period of time, because we don't want to frighten people like you. It's not like 10 years of hell for some people to get through something easy, but also some days are okay.

38:06 It's an up and down.

38:07 How about you?

38:08 How did it impact your relationships?

38:09 I mean, I think ask my husband probably I just send passive aggressive reels and then check if he's read them I feel like it's definitely impacting everything you know my family my husband my son my work my friends but also it's okay because I finally don't care if I say no to going to that thing because I was always a yes sure I'll come and oh wow I really can't fit that in and somehow I'll make it work and now I'm like no I can't fit that in or staying home and trying to sleep is more important and might take a nap um So I'm just, I guess, a little bit more honest or firstly for the first time prioritising like literally my health.

38:48 Yeah.

38:48 Which is my mental health as well. So if that impacts my relationship, so be it. It needs to happen.

38:55 And that sounds almost like a bit of a silver lining. In terms of people listening who have not gone through this yet and are looking down the barrel of it eventually, Amelia is one of them too.

39:04 No, I think I'm in the barrel of rolling down the barrel.

39:07 Yeah.

39:09 What do we have to look forward to, guys?

39:11 There is a wonderful freedom to what Lee's describing and Mia has described before about there's a happy side to the people-pleasing hormone drop, which is often at this point in life women will shed things that are, it's a cliche, but shed things that aren't working for them, things they've always felt.

39:30 They had to do.

39:30 I just heard my friend Amelia Lester saying this because it's a year of the snake.

39:34 Year of the horse.

39:35 Year of the horse.

39:35 And you were saying something about shedding.

39:37 She told me that was what was wrong with me. I'm shedding. See, so it can happen to your hair as well.

39:43 So for a lot of women, it's a time of like reassessment, realignment, which is what Lee's talking about, right? Is that when you're having to prioritize your health more, prioritize yourself more, sometimes that can be great. The other side of, I mean, I'm in, I'm postmenopausal and I still do have like things like sleep are still issues for me. I do still have some symptoms of various things.

40:04 But generally it's really good not to have periods.

40:06 Yeah.

40:07 You, you are officially entering your next era and there's, there's, There's dignity in that and there's power in that and there is freedom in that when you get to the other side.

40:18 I really like that idea of entering our next era.

40:21 It's very Taylor Swift eras to her.

40:24 Can't wait till she starts writing songs about her.

40:26 Her era.

40:26 It's going to be amazing.

40:28 She's going to dress as like a big droplet of blood.

40:30 Less than 10 years away.

40:32 Yeah. And, look, the whole point of this was everyone's obviously experiencing it differently.

40:36 We want to validate however you're.

40:38 Experiencing it if you are. And if it is affecting your life, talk to your doctor because support is available.

40:45 And would you say that that would be your advice?

40:47 Everyone who's gone through it, would you say that that was kind of a bit of a turning point when you went and spoke to a doctor?

40:53 Definitely.

40:54 And I've actually done it a couple of times during this period. Like I've gone to doctors and different doctors, but... one i think that sometimes we we tell me we give messages that like doctors don't really know but the thing is is that training and awareness is changing a lot yeah and there i've got a really good gp who does take it seriously who understands it um and you do it i think that you need to you need to start that conversation with your doctor i found it really helpful um to have some kind of almost like scripts to say when you go in there to talk specifically about this is what I'm struggling with, this is what I'm struggling with, I think it's this.

41:33 And maybe write it down because of the brain fog.

41:34 Yeah, of course, write it down because of the brain fog and start that conversation because I think things are changing so much in what's available to us and the likelihood of you being dismissed, which used to be something that women talked about a lot, I think, and I know it still happens, but it's getting... I think that likelihood is getting smaller all the time with the awareness raising.

41:56 And if you don't like the answer that you're given, go to another doctor.

42:01 Yeah.

42:01 Get a second opinion.

42:02 I totally agree.

42:02 And I know it can be tricky, particularly if you're living in a rural or a regional area. There aren't very many doctors in some places. But Go online somewhere reputable.

42:13 Well, there's somewhere to go. There is somewhere to go.

42:16 Health.gov.au forward slash perimenopause has information on doctors who are specifically experienced in menopause care.

42:22 And I think that's really crucial because I think the upside is so many more people are talking about perimenopause and menopause now, but so many more people are trying to sell you things and so many people who don't have experience are and who aren't medically trained and who aren't necessarily credible are giving information out. So you really have to be very discerning about where you seek out information.

42:47 Also, if you're experiencing these symptoms, then see a doctor because it could be a sign of something else. Don't do the self-diagnosis thing because, you know, you need to get tailored care to you.

42:58 Thank you so much to.

42:59 All of you for being so generous with your experiences. I don't think there is a single 35-year-old who has heard more about perimenopause.

43:08 No, it's true.

43:08 Your generation is going to be particularly well prepared for this.

43:12 You've literally lived it sitting in between us.

43:16 I've lived like three perimenopauses.

43:18 And just when you think you've finished some, you've got more.

43:22 Yeah, exactly.

43:23 I've got Amelia popping her head out. And then I've got my mum who, when this first came up, when you did the summit, mum was like, There was no perimenopause when I was going through it.

43:31 It didn't exist.

43:32 It didn't exist.

43:32 It's just look at them making it up with their genetics.

43:35 Making it a bit faster.

43:35 She's now looked back and she's been like, I do believe I went through the perimenopause.

43:39 I do believe I didn't sleep for 10 years and that may have been it.

43:41 Maybe that was it.

43:43 Maybe that was it.

43:44 Thank you so much and we'll be back in your ears next week.

43:48 Bye. Bye.