Episode 33 - Trey Hensley

0:41 Yeah, we started doing this. Tyler had this idea. I came over and did some interviews. He used to have his like computer here and I did some interviews or I did an interview with him and we just kind of hit it off, like you were all around the same age, but and he's like, dude, I think we should do a podcast.

0:54 I was like, I know. Exactly how I said it. I was like man people would love to hear his yap. You got tuner? Oh yeah, It's all tuned up. You're all good. Yeah, I've gotten, I've gotten better at my guest rigs. Oh yeah, man. Well with you it's easy bro, it's just you just better tuner down. Well, we will we.

1:12 Will take out some electric guitars before you're gone if that's if that's cool with. You you got a few. I got a few you can choose from. Or two days ago, he hit me up and he's like, dude, have you seen Trey play electric? And I was like, yes. We'll start with these acoustic guitars. So why did you get drawn to acoustic guitar before electric? Or why has that become your instrument of choice? Yeah, man, I grew up I guess listening to more acoustic stuff.

1:36 And then I remember when I, when I started taking lessons, I probably wanted to play an electric and the guy took lessons from was like, you should pick up an acoustic 1st and kind of get that down and then if you want to pick up electric later. And then I got way into acoustic and like I stuck with it for, you know, 5 or 6 years and then got a telly and. How old were you?

1:57 10. Wow, 10 years old, cool man. What was the song that you started playing over and over that annoyed the hell out of your parents? I was, I was like into way older music for when I was a kid. So I was like into flying Scruggs and all that stuff. And so there's nothing and there's a lot of like pretty simple single line tunes like Wildwood Flower and all that kind of stuff. Dude, give me a little sample there you. Have to bear with us because we're not quite at Blues or like standards aficionados as you are. So.

2:24 Dude, you're dealing with it. You're dealing with a bunch of punks over. Here, feel free to demonstrate at any moment when our eyes glaze over. Yeah, it is all like real simple. Stuff like that, you know, it's the first. Thing. A variation did. You have Did your dad or your parents or anyone in your family play guitar? Especially like the bluegrass stuff? Who was listening to it?

3:03 No, my dad played banjo when I was a kid, but he's a car mechanic and like he had a shop Outback so come in from work and then like go work on that and he never really like focused on the banjo. Yeah. And so he picked up, you know, probably 5 songs. Do you play banjo? Very. Little bit, yeah. I used to play more, but I don't it's it's so loud and obnoxious. I don't even have one anymore, you know, But he was always like pretty good and then but nobody played guitar. Like he was the only one that I ever grew up in my family that I knew, that played I think like generations back maybe, but nobody that I knew.

3:36 Now we're around the same age, so like you got into the acoustic really heavy at the same time, I'm assuming you were hearing all this stuff we were hearing. And like, you know, I guess this was at the time, this was like early 2000s, but I think about like the, the, the guitar, it was like new metal back then. So I was hearing all that stuff as a 10 year old. I was like, I was hearing like Limp Bizkit and stuff on the. Right, right.

3:57 Rolling Dude, I had that. I definitely damaged my hearing at age 12 because of hearing that over and over. For me, I was listening to like what my dad was listening to. So it was all like Cream and you know, Zeppelin and all that stuff. So that's I think where that came in. So that that's cool that your dad had that going. Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of missed out on everything, like in the rock world or anything, you know, like it was so specifically bluegrass in my household in some country, but it was like the still just a, an extension of the bluegrass world because it was all like Hank Williams and classic stuff, you know?

4:32 I saw a video of you. I think you reposted it. It was probably a few weeks ago and it was you where you were playing with like Marty Stewart. Oh yeah. Yeah, what was that? You were young. Yeah, I was 11. the town. Yeah, I started, like I said, started when I was 10. I met Marty. He was playing out in East Tennessee, where I'm from, at a fair cool, you know, out like year 2000. And he, it was that like transitional year for him, where he was.

5:14 He just did that Pilgrim album, which is, you know, a killer Marty Stewart record, and he was kind of going to that, the new band that he's got now, the Fabulous Superlatives, but he was kind of doing the Rock'n'roll Cowboys I think was the name of the band then. It was a very loud country band. He was still using like 2 Twin amps on stage, you know.

5:33 But I was always a big fan of his and so when I met him at that fair, I knew like 3 songs. But I brought my guitar. I was wanting to sign my guitar case and I played a couple songs for him backstage and he got me up on stage that night and they were all like girl Scruggs versions of songs. So he whenever he invited me to play the Opry, a few months later, he got Earl to come out and play those songs.

5:57 That was what I saw. Yeah. Yeah, that was. That's insane. I. Think I've been playing around 9 months at that time so luckily I only played two songs because that's all I really. Your dad probably sitting there and he's like, what? Jimmy Brown, the newsboy was the, the one that I actually played on the Opry.

6:14 And then I, I came back out at the end because we did like Foggy Mountain breakdown or something, you know, with Earl. Dude that is so. What a cool core memory. Like I said, I grew up listening to Flying Scruggs and like that was my first memory of wanting to get into music was those records and like seeing Earl Scruggs his face on on album covers. And then it was at the Ryman And so at the times would have been 2002.

6:37 So it was only, you know, still I don't think they'd like really renovated the Ryman backstage yet. So there's still only like 2 dressing rooms back there and they put me and are all in the same dressing room. And so from like 4:30 until 7:30, I just got to sit back there and ask him questions. And so I think all like the nerves had dissipated. Yeah.

6:56 I wasn't really nervous at all. And then I think like 83 people from my hometown drove to Nashville to see that size. 83 of them. Dude you had like a legit like a roadway the. Tip of the tickets at the Ryman that night to hometown folks. But yeah, that was so that was fun. A lot, a lot of family there.

7:18 What advice did he give you backstage? Do you remember anything that sticks out? It was not Earl was kind of, it was very reserved. So it was nothing like ever. You know, you should do this. You should. Here's what I'll say to change your life. Yeah, there was nothing like that, but it was a lot of like, because I play with a flat pick and he played with a thumb pick and two finger picks, you know, because he played banjo. And so I was picking up all these notes that he was playing, you know, like I would do them if it was. Like all this?

8:30 Hold up dude, are you? Are you like a big Chet Atkins guy? I wasn't, but I I have become one like, you know, listen to him, but like it was that stuff so forward and it's so weird because like I I'm more in a Merle Travis and that's like, you know, two finger. You don't use your middle finger at all.

8:48 Man, that's wild that you're able to like, that's like, it's almost like the classical thing where there's like such strict rules, but obviously they're player specific almost or like style specific. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't into the Merle Travis stuff until, I mean, I loved it. But I guess like to the 21 or something like that was the 50th anniversary of that Nitty Gritty Dirt band, will a Circle Be Unbroken album? And they did two nights at the Country Music Hall of Fame Theater.

9:17 They wanted like a particular artist to play the part of like a person that was on that record. So they had Carly and Carter did the Mabel Carter songs. And anyway, they asked me to do Merle Travis stuff and I, I was just like, yeah, of course. I'll be there. And then like the the realization hit, it was like, I don't play that style. So I had to buy like a thumb pick and a finger pick and sit there and just get it all trying to trying to work that out. You know I.

9:42 Don't. I've have a similar story where I joined an Incubus cover band in college and I knew 2 Incubus songs, but I loved them. I was like, yeah, I could join an Incubus cover band. And then I started listening to all the songs and all the effects and all this stuff and I'm like, oh, I got it. I got to put my money where my mouth is, right? Now, well, I think it's a.

10:01 It's a it's like a testament, Like I've said that to a lot of people. It's like there's been times where I've been asked to do things I have no idea how. And I and I go of course, like, yeah. I'll figure that's for future me. You're you're on the way home. You're like, all right, let me let me figure this out and then you just dive in.

10:19 That's it. I mean, yeah. And I think it makes you a better player if it works out. Yeah, 100%. Even if it doesn't work out, it makes. You better, yeah, it humbles you. Which is a state of being that I find a lot of our guests are in. Is this humility state of they're all so great and yet always searching?

10:37 And it is, yeah. Dude, you're sitting right where Tommy Emmanuel is AT, and I know you and Tommy are homies, but he had such great things to say about you. But it's like the same thing on the acoustic level. I feel like there's so many. It's just endless. So it's like once you've once you know that it's, you're never going to master it. It's like the guitar.

10:56 It's like you know, you're you're the ultimate. Acoustic guitar in particular, we should talk more about just the way you work with that versus an electric guitar. And is there some sort of technique or lesson that you would give somebody switching from electric to acoustic or like wanting to go down a path like yours?

11:15 And he and he just like, oh duh, obvious stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it is weird because and even for me, like personally, I use pretty heavy gauge strings on electric or on acoustic, like 13 to 56 and then on electric age 10's. And so it's, you know, two different worlds and I treat it as if it's two different instruments.

11:38 You know, obviously there's a different touch to it. Acoustic guitars for the way I play is so like right hand specific that I feel like that's the biggest like when I'm teaching somebody, especially that's that's going from electric to acoustic. That always seems to be be the biggest hang up for like learning flat picking is getting the right hand stuff down for me.

12:01 Like there's so many cross picking things I do, which is just alternate picking, but it's thinking of it in like series of three notes. So left hand and just practice the cross picking thing. Just going just that. Yes, they're like. Without even any notes maybe. Or, and I've talked about before, like doing 6 like And just getting the right hand thing that and also I try not to like there's so many I can get into the like the weeds. Please do you know not touching the the bridge pins really with your right hand?

12:48 Like, oh wow, so you're almost like you're, you're up. You're kind of hovering above. Dude, this is great for me 'cause I don't even use a. Pig dude, no problem. I love it. No, keep going, keep going. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a weird thing and I like, I had these, these hand problems. We were on the road with Tommy Speaking of like in 2019.

13:10 And I think I just started, when I started playing, I started on Dreadnought, so a big guitar, you know, and I would just always lay my hand back here and everything pivoted from that point and it just really messed up my forearm. Like physically you had pain. Out the first night of that run with Tommy, it was Tommy and Grisman.

13:28 David Grisman and I was in a duo and so we would like open the show and then Tommy and Grisman would play a set and then I would play some with Tommy and like first song of my duo set, my hand would just lock up. It locked up the. Whole night, you know, of my forearm just totally locked. The next year, you know, everything kind of shut down.

13:47 And so I had all that time to really just focus on right hand. Did you play through the pain where you just like I'm going through? I would, yeah. Just, you know, I didn't cancel anything and but I knew that like especially when I get on stage with Tommy and everything like the, you know. The adrenaline goes and you don't. Realize.

14:06 Exactly. And then you go backstage and it's like, I felt like I was just done, you know? A lot of people don't talk about that with guitar especially is like the physical toll it can have, especially when you go from playing at home or you're jamming, you know? But then when you get in that context where you're on stage and it's like, hey, it's like, you know, fight or flight kind of vibe and you go for it. A lot of people, I don't think, realize how much of A toll it takes on your hands, your ligaments, your arms. I mean there's a lot of stuff that I mean a lot of micro muscles and everything else that are getting. So that was your technique up to that point that you had to adjust then I.

14:41 Do feel like it was well, I know it was all technique based because once I changed my right hand form, that helped a lot and just getting used to like, I think I mean there's so many different players we talked about, you know, with that with Chet Atkins and Merle Travis. But like, you know, growing up watching Tony Rice play like his technique was so specific to just his like he had gotten it down to where it was just his thumb and his index finger that moved and it.

15:09 But he played really softly. And so when he was playing with a band, yeah, everybody had to quiet. Yeah, he had to. Come down to really accommodate him and I've always been the opposite of that spectrum and I kind of play hard. Trey will be heard. Well, I feel like, dude, I feel like you do have that, that attack. Yeah, it's a little, and it's a little brash, you know, And I always try to be louder than the banjo players and whatever else, you know?

15:33 It all comes back to the banjos. The banjo future to the banjo. But and then like, you know, even I got way into like how my pick hits the string and making sure the picks flat at all times. You know, like I'm. Which is where that term flat picking. I've only ever heard that with. Yeah, acoustic style.

15:51 Yeah, it's like, I mean, everybody uses a flat pick. Right, that's why I was like, you mean picking or? Do you do you use a specific guitar pick? Like do you have like your favorite or do you switch them out? I switch them out between like 3 or 4 different kinds. Like Right now I'm using this. It's a token, but they're all kind of variations of like there was this company called Blue Chip.

16:12 Oh. I've heard of them. And they, they were like the first ones because I used to use tortoiseshell, you know, people would buy like Combs. And yeah, there you go. No, but real tortoise shell, right? You don't mean Tortex? Tyler goes the one with the turtle. You know this one's. Legal. Well, you're kind of right. I didn't murder any tortoises.

16:32 So where'd you get a piece of turtle? Did you? You know, like these people out in Easton's who would buy, go to like antique shops and buy Combs or, you know, like, yeah, like the big cigarette trays or whatever they would you could find and then cut them up. Shave off a shit, yeah. And but they, they, they sounded OK, but like, you would have to work on them continuously because they, it's, you know, a piece of material.

16:57 It'll. Start to go. Yeah, so this this guy in Knoxville created these blue chip pics back. I mean, I don't even plan a few few years when he came up with those and I used those like specifically for 20 years. I I think I saw those at Carter's years ago. They're like 40 bucks apiece, right? Yeah, I remember that serious.

17:18 Some of these guitar players would show me like 1. Dude was like, check it out. Like he showed, he showed me his his blue chip and I was kind of like sick pick dude. You're only as good as how much your pick. Costs, that's right. Yes, we're down to that now. Do you still use that? I've got some that I use quite a bit and these are the same. And then like I've got a so somewhere a tone slab that that are really nice, but they're all made out of it. Yeah, they're tone slab.

17:44 They're. What are the points of the different picks, no pun intended? Like what's the reason for using one versus the other? Well, I well for those three, it's just different tones for me, like the blue chip, I still like the blue chip quite a bit. They just, I mean the when it gets to this, I don't know what the material is, but whatever the material is like a really hard piece play. They're very thick and and when you hit the string like the to me the the notes are rounder.

18:12 Can I feel your pick, dude? Oh, that is pretty thick, dude. That's pretty bad. I like you can use this damn thing as a frisbee, dude. Oh yeah. Here's the tone slab. Oh, that's even. That's badass. This thing is like a base pick to me, yeah. You know, Steve, Steve Warner. I was just, I was just riding with him and he he kept one of the tone slabs. He goes, hey man, you got to pick for my bass. You're like, Yep.

18:38 So he, he kept, I think he bought a couple just for bass, you know, because it's, it is a nice bass pick, but. So it's, it's a volume thing, a tone thing. Is it a mindset? If you're playing a heavier versus lighter versus different material, do you tend to play a certain way? Yeah, I mean like if I'm playing in the studio, I'll bring, you know, Altoid can full of 100 different pics and you know, and for different guitars, obviously it's a different thing. I mean, I'm I'm almost always playing the big, you know, Dreadnought.

19:12 I don't do as much in the studio anymore for, you know, playing on other people's records. But when I was, I would just bring a whole bunch of stuff. Did you do that A lot were. You not a ton, but I would do some when I was here and I like it. It's just I think I'm so I don't know. I've always worked on my thing.

19:31 I know the feeling. You know, it's like even when I play on somebody elses records, I don't, I'm not a great chameleon, you know, and I feel like I always stick out. I feel like I meet a lot of players that are that and, and they could do like an amazing cover band gig or they can walk into a session and sound like 20 different players.

19:50 And one of my biggest faults is that no matter what I pick up, I sound like me. And then if you want that, I got that. But it's, I remember one time someone goes, dude, we need like a edge thing. And I was like, oh God, I was like, you need to go find somebody else, bro, because I don't even know how to do that.

20:07 I always love there's a great Buddy Emmons story, you know, a great pedal steel player and he was playing on a session and they wanted him to play like somebody else. And they said the other person's name and it just came on the talk back and said you hire Buddy Emmons, you get Buddy Emmons. You know that's a badass.

20:23 Yeah, I mean, also that's like the calling card and I think that what defines you, especially with the instrument, you know, it's like you have your own sound, your style and and that's what that's what works. It obviously LED you to glorious heights because you just won a Grammy for the best Blues album of the year.

20:39 Not a bad feather in the cap. Dude how did that feel? I saw the pictures of you, your wife and your daughter I believe. Oh yeah, yeah, that was awesome. Dressed up. That was great. Yeah, I was. So my, I did this album in like 2014 with Rob Ikes that was nominated for the bluegrass album that year. And so my daughter was a newborn at that time. Me and my wife went, but she didn't get to go. And so this time I got to bring my daughter and, and my wife and yeah, we had a great time because, I mean, my daughter's, she's into music a little bit.

21:10 And I've never, like, pushed my music on her that much, as much as I would like to, you know, like, make, you know, make her listen here, listen to Zeppelin. Sweetheart, get in here quick. Well, you got to hear this. She's, she's, she does a great Tom Waits impersonation, which is hilarious, you know, amazing.

21:23 That's how you know you're raising your child, right? And so, but she was all into like, you know, Taylor Swift and Sabrina Carpenter and all the stuff that's huge at the Grammys. And, but I do have a great picture because I, I, you know, like I've met some people through social media. And so like Mike Dirt of Green Day was there and so we get to hang with him and, and then like Rob Halford was there and it sound like I got to introduce my daughter to Rob Halford. That's she didn't know.

21:51 That's cool now, but. She one day, though, she'll see that picture and she'll be like, whoa, you know, even if she's not like a priest fan, like it'll eventually click in like, holy crap. Like yeah dude, what a great honor man. Congratulations. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, that was that was pretty great. I mean, it was a record I did with Taj Mahal, which was way cool.

22:11 What's some highlights on that record that particularly stick out? It's funny. I mean, that record it, it was just total happenstance, like album because it's a live record and we had done probably like a month's worth of shows that year. Or I'd done with Taj and just going out. Like I would sing some songs and, but I was playing all the guitar for the show. He wasn't playing at all.

22:37 And, and then later on that year, he we, we did the tour and then we had started like a studio album pre COVID, like February 2020 and we got half a record done and then we never finished it. And so when Taj called later after the tour was over and he said they had just renovated Leon Russell Studio in Tulsa and I don't think they'd had anybody in there yet. And they were kind of wanting Todd to be the one of the first live recordings that they did there. And so we did that show.

23:14 And it's because when when we did the tour, as most tours, like the longer the tour went, the more refined the setlist went. And we kind of by the end of it, we were doing a pretty standard set and had everything kind of feeling good. And, but then when we did the live record, we we rehearsed and rehearsed all the songs we were doing on tour. And I love it.

23:35 But at the time it was weird because Todd was just calling tunes and it was like, you know, brand new stuff we never played. And this was live and, you know, in front of people. And, and so I remember that night leaving and just not feeling very confident in what I did. And and then a few years later, you know, they're like, oh, we're going to put that record out and I'm saying.

23:56 You're like what? Yeah, I'm singing like two or three of the songs on it and those we did, you know, during the tour. And so I felt confident. Everything else, I was a little shaky, you know, But when it came out, came out great, you know, and, and. I'll say. There's kind of a thing, though, when it's shaky. It is, yeah.

24:13 There's a, There's a. There's energy. And there's a complete energy on that record. And I think, you know, what's the, I've, I've heard like when Don Williams would go in to record and he would bring his band from the road, but he would make them all change instruments and to like, get them to be uncomfortable, you know?

24:31 And so when you hear like some of those records when it's real sparse, it's like it's because the musicians didn't know what to do. Hey, the guitar player's on the drums and he's like. There's no bass pedal. The the bass drum doesn't go with the crash. That was always my weakness. Gosh, that's.

24:52 That's that just came out. That took a while. I mean that it was live in the studio, but it just took a while to actually make time to do it. And now I'm working on another record I with Brian Sutton producing it. And yes, we've got like 4 tracks done for that. Awesome man. But it's a little, it's, it's always kind of weird because, you know, the new record just come out and I'm touring it this year pretty heavily.

25:19 So like, I mean, I want to be excited about it, but by the time they come out, you know? You're already under the next thing, a. Million times and through mixing or whatever. Where does your songwriting voice come from on these albums? When it comes to your specific style of music? Do you have an identity that you've forged from multiple players?

25:40 Do you feel like you have a certain signature that defines you? What would you say? I don't know. I mean, it's like the songwriting part of it is so abstract to me and I don't get it really. You know, it's, it's, it was one of those things that happened for me. Like later, I was just always been a guitar player.

25:58 I was really focused on that. And then I sang. I was saying, but it's that's never been my favorite part of playing. Yeah. Like I was just playing guitar, you know, And then when I, oh, and I would just always do cover songs. But then when it comes to songwriting, yeah, that's, that's always still been a little bit of a mystery.

26:18 And I think I've never written any Like everything's just always from an outside perspective. And so that makes it a little easier to digest from me, but. Well, it's funny because you can nail a lick and that's objectively like you just nailed that lick, but with a song you can't. You can think you nailed the song, but it's like not that was totally wrong.

26:37 Yeah, you don't know. And it's, I mean, a lot of these songs, like I worked with a producer, Scott Brent Mayer, just great producer. You know, I've worked on him on a couple different projects. And really that's what the a lot of the reason that it took so long to get this record done was that I just didn't know like I would send him songs.

26:59 And finally it was like, hey, I've got probably 30 songs, you know, do you want, do would you like to listen to him? And and he and yeah, you know, and, and really I had enough for at least a couple albums that were kind of. But the problem with me also is like getting 10 that because I'm into a lot of different kinds of music and 10 that like cohesively fit together or it's always a different, different thing for me and. It's weird, man.

27:25 I mean, yeah, once. And once you're doing it for yourself, too, especially when you have such like, wide influences. You go, what? It's almost like you throw a dart. It's like, what are we? What are we trying to hit? Yeah, it is. Just captures who you are in that era or that year, that month or whatever it is.

27:40 And I think that could be a way to to alleviate some of that stress of like who am I? What should I be? You just like let it whatever is flowing at that moment. I have friends that will sit their whole lives on songs because they they don't know and they're like, is this it? Is this it? I'm like, just put the music out, man, just go just roll with it.

27:58 You know, especially nowadays, it's like if you're putting out records or putting out songs, it's like, man, just have fun with it and and do what you're feeling. Expect nothing. Expect nothing because guess what? No, I just, I expect nothing. It's a great mantra. So what? What do you practice then? If if you're working on these songs, you're having a career as a guitar player, but you're already so accomplished, how do you maintain?

28:28 Something tells me he still practices a lot. I practice quite a bit. I mean, when I'm home, I practice as much as I can. And it's funny because I mean, I do play electric and acoustic and so like for the last several years it's been so acoustic specific that I've not played electric that much. And this year that was kind of one of the goals was that I wanted to do more electric stuff. So I'm doing some, you know, like electric trio stuff later in the.

28:54 Amazing. Yeah, yeah. And, and this new record that I'm working on with Brian is electric. So that's it's, it's fun. I mean, I, I'm, that still feels a little bit like getting back on the horse for me. Like I'm, I'm getting my sea legs on the electric because I've, it's funny, I'll do an electric show and I just feel like I'm going to break the neck off of my car because I'm so used to this and it doesn't work. You know, it's like it's a totally different approach for me, but there's so much.

29:28 I mean, there's still a lot I want to work on and I'm trying to, I feel like, you know, everybody gets in a rut and you just want to get out of that, you know. And, and so for me, like I, I know last several years have been a lot of jazz standards and that kind of stuff, you know, and then actually just trying to figure out what I, you know, like some theory things or what, what.

29:50 How are you with the theory stuff? I'm not good at all really. Like I never got. In play me a 145 and G now I. Can I can kind of do that, OK. But it's that's about the extent of it, you know, right. What more do you need than that though, right? Well, well, dude, here's the thing. Obviously you've been playing for a while and your ear has been built up so heavily that sometimes I meet players that are really dominant on the actual listening of it, that the theory, it just comes and it goes.

30:21 It's not like it's like, you know, a really steadfast thing. Yeah, I mean, it's, and I the guy that I took lessons off when I was a kid, real old school, you know, and it, it, there was never any, you know, I just always remember playing his guitars and they were always set up, you know, like cowboy chord stuff every that the action will be so high as 12th fret, but it's all about getting volume. And he never played up here really. And so and there was 0 theory.

30:49 It was all just like, here's what I play, you play. Do it. Do it like me. Do it like me. And, and there's so much of that in the bluegrass world where it's like, you know, it's always kind of been that way, where, you know, the older generation showing a younger generation, then you kind of figure it out.

31:06 Feel like it's truly passed down. It is, yeah. It's it's pretty. It's still kind of like that. Yeah. So do you have certain lines that you warm up with or practice that one thing you did with the the threes? That seems like an excellent warm up. Yeah, I do that quite a bit and I'll do a lot of times, I'll just do like A1, four 5 / G. Perfect, Yeah.

31:31 That's exactly what you told me to do. Yeah, exactly what you told me to do. But I'll just do a lot of cord shape stuff. So if really kind of focusing on the right hand more than the left. I mean the left hand kind of, but. The left hand sort of on autopilot and you have because that is, I would agree with you that the right hand really dictates especially with an acoustic instrument how all the notes are going to sound out.

32:15 And so when mutes are happening etcetera, didn't seem like there was any muting going on there. That's just exact precision. Yeah, I mean, I'll do like things like the ending, the the D section of like Black Mountain Rag where it's a lot of repetitive kind of back and forth notes of like it's just over seats like 1, four, 5 / C it's the same idea, you know, but just kind of moving it around in different shapes or different chords, different shape, but a lot of like repetition of that. Anything that I can do that's, you know, going to be like, there's there's another Doc Watson like that's not very useful, like in a musical context, but like it's. I'll be the judge of that.

33:14 Yeah, just a. Chromatic from 1G to the next and just because I don't use my pinky that often, so that's the biggest thing I have to warm up is like actually using that. And then the older I get like my I can feel. You can feel that I. Feel the arthritis coming in. I'll say it's fascinating to hear every note.

33:39 I feel like like that punctual thing you have where it's like when you're playing that line up top, you can hear every note. It's like the same there. There's no falter in the dynamic, which is really sick. Yeah, I mean, I kind of like to to dictate the dynamics when they happen, you know, and that was something I did work on was like trying to get my up strokes on my pick to to make the same volume.

34:03 And that's I mean, because obviously it doesn't, you know, your down strokes are always going to be more prominent. So I remember practicing that maybe not like to the extent of really saying it out loud. I mean I want to make but it was just subconsciously. Hear it in your head and you're like, it doesn't quite sound like what I hear in my head.

34:21 I want it to be, I want them to all be the same. And I don't really know because I mean, you know, it's like what? But when I hear Doc Watson, I kind of hear that. I hear that that's specific. So also the guitar you're holding, that's your guitar? It is, yeah. What's up with that thing? That thing's beautiful. Yeah, I love this thing.

34:38 It's a, it's a Taylor Gold Label. Yeah, my signature. Model, this is your signature. Did did you put a sticker in there? I did. I can see it. From my. End Somebody gave me like a handful of these Charles Bukowski stickers and I would love her. Like you can only see it from this angle. That I can't.

34:55 I love them, yeah. That's I haven't seen a tailor. I have a tailor here. It doesn't look like that. That that's got such a. Yeah, these the gold label, they did a different headstock, OK. And like, I've known the folks at Taylor for a long time and I've always loved Andy Powers because when I would pick with him, like he's a big bluegrass nerd too, and grew up listening to Doc Watson, I always when I would play like a dreadnought tailor, I just didn't feel like it ever had the like power that I was kind of going for in the bluegrass setting as much. And then when they started doing these gold labels, I don't know, it's it's a different bracing that just kind of works for this style.

35:33 And I was playing one of their gold label Grand Pacific's for like a couple several months as kind of my only guitar, which is pretty abnormal cause I've got, I mean, I've probably got, you know, 40 or 50 acoustic guitars. How do you judge an acoustic like the sound of it? Yeah, I mean, like for me, it's always got to have. You have to have the the acoustic chord, but you play first.

35:59 It has to have kind of a big E chord going in, and these strings are pretty good, but I've got to have that. So that was, I mean, that's always it. You know, there's always a little bit of like like for me, these, the gold labels in particular just had this kind of across the board this of them. Like a lot of times, like when I'll play some of my bigger dreadnoughts, they're they're really great for that kind of boomy thing.

36:32 But then when I go for the the like single line clarity notes, it just gets muddy and it's hard to portray what I'm trying to say. And so these like it felt like everything. It was a lot easier for me to to do the things I wanted to do. I think about it too, and, and especially for like the bluegrass setting and all that thinking about it and you talk about like the boominess or if it has the punch. Because truly like if you were sitting there playing, it's like you got to stick out.

37:00 So a lot of your style and your technique, I feel like that'll automatically make you stick out. But to have a guitar that hits with you, that's what you need. It's really important because I mean, a lot of times, like I would, I would go through these different phases where I would bring guitars because I always plug in.

37:15 And so I'll go to these shows and I would play guitar that sounds really great plugged in. And then when I go to like if I was going to jam or something or just even practice backstage with the band, you know, the guitar would just be lost. And so, yeah, it was, I started playing a prototype of this guitar and then it was like, yeah, this is this kind of works perfect for what I do. I didn't really change much, but put different bridge pins a little bit, I think a little different neck. I like that little pickguard.

37:45 Oh yeah, I like the pickguard. Dude I like the the burst on it too. That was a Andy Powers thing. I mean, I was kind of like, I like a burst and he sent me, I think two different guitars, like two different bursts and I like this one. Subtle, but it's like. Yeah, it's it's just just enough to. Do you want to see how it holds U with some rhythm underneath?

38:05 Sure, how about that? Thanks for letting us try. You're doing some sick, sick stuff, man. You guys, when you think about what you're going to play, obviously it's all a stream of consciousness in the moment, but are there certain things that you rely on just getting, getting to know a chord progression, for example, like, all right, I know this is going to take me to the place I'm meant to arrive. It's a lot of chord shapes that I'm always thinking of, like the next variation of.

40:31 So there's a lot of like in G, Kind of basically like different triads. Tri. It's like triads up the neck. Yeah, exactly. I got the one, got the cutaway. That's cool, man. And so, yeah, a lot of a lot of that. And there's a lot of, yeah, I'll practice like triads over different chord shapes, kind of like the 145 thing.

41:04 So there's, I mean, I guess that's really about it. You know, there's certain times I'll think of like, and bluegrass is so contextual with like different players. And it's so it's almost like I always think of it. You know, I just played with Bella Flack last summer and we played a like a flat and Scruggs song.

41:23 And it's just funny to hear somebody that has their own voice playing, you know, a real Scruggs like or you know, and it says the same for like when I'm thinking of, you know, like sometimes I'll I'll play in a like a trad song that had been covered by Tony Rice and I'll hear those Tony licks, you know, you know. And and so when I'm thinking of like those licks, I might have some of that going on, but really that's like the only time that I'm ever thinking licks, like if I want to quote something or somebody.

41:58 Yeah, if you want to hit a certain thing. Other than that it's it's all like around the core shapes. With the speed, did the speed just come or was that something you so like, really consciously tried to build? It was something I consciously tried to build. I remember being younger and like when I got into Tony Rice, that's almost a different, you know, part of bluegrass.

42:19 It's like a sub genre I mean. Tony Rice, Bluegrass. Can you play a few Tony Rice licks for? Me, yeah, I mean, and it's I only do that when I when I mess up. Yeah, that was kind of A and it's funny because that's like late era Tony, early 2000. Dude, Jared's always stealing like. I'm a stealer. I was on the road with Richie Cotson, the winery dogs, and he would do those things where he also Richie would do like a like a.

43:15 It's like an Indian. Sitar Indian sitar like. Stolen. You can do it on another note. And then he would do it like. seizure on the street. That's cool, man. So he brought more of like the bluesy, almost like a little sassy. It was yeah, definitely more of the Blues like before him and you know, in the in the lineage was like Clarence White and he played you know, he played in the birds, yes, Telecaster birds and like there's to me, there's pre birds clearance, which was very Doc Watson like. And then there's post birds clearance where he was playing more like he played this middle thing. I could do more hybrid picking on acoustic guitar, which I I really don't do that at all.

44:07 Like I'll hybrid pick electric. I just don't do any hybrid picking on acoustic. But but he's. Probably hard to match. I can't. Even when you listen to Clarence, you can hear it like there's a there's definitely a volume like he would do cross picking. Well, I even think when I'm trying to play acoustic, if I'm alone playing acoustic, it's great because I can match my dynamics.

44:29 But if I'm trying to play in a the finger the flesh to a pig, it's so much lower, you know? And you have a piece of granite for a fingertip. I do, yeah. Look at that. Look at that nasty sucker dude. Hey yeah, don't be like me kids now. But it is a big difference between that that punctual of a pic to a finger. Much different.

44:49 That's why on the electric it's not as noticeable but. Yeah, because normally you associate an acoustic guitar, at least I did when I first started playing, as like a friendly instrument. And electric is like mean and could be angry. But infusing that energy into an acoustic context I think is really interesting.

45:07 Yeah. I mean, it's, I didn't really. I mean, I thought about it before playing electric, but I think when I went to electric and I could, you know, crank an amp and, and it was, it was important when I went back to acoustic to be able to bring some of that right. And I obviously I, I do miss like a lot of times I'll think about how much I miss having, you know, just some like the notes just die so quickly on an acoustic guitar.

45:33 So you don't really have any. No, no safety net. There's no safety net, Yeah. Yeah, dude, you literally you're naked with an acoustic string. Yeah. And so a lot of times like I'll go to to play a bin and kind of lean on it as if I'm playing an electric more and then it's like, oh man, it's gone. Yeah, just as quickly as it appeared. Well, it's interesting you say that because you're sound is so full even when it's single lines and that's a testament to the dynamics that you have control over. But is there a certain type of playing that or just like, is it an approach more than anything to have that full sound when it's chords and I suppose it's just the evenness of the notes that I'm hearing?

46:14 Yeah, I mean, there is definitely like I grew up, you know, playing by myself for the most part. And so I think I started doing gigs pretty early on and I hated when I would feel there was a hole, you know, almost to a fault. Like now when I do more acoustic solo shows I I've become more comfortable with the silence.

46:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But before it was like, I have to, if there's silence, I must get rid of it. You know, either with with cross and there's a lot of cross picking stuff like an accompaniment, almost like you're playing, you know, Well, I think of bringing Tony Rice back into it. The there's a great album he did called Church Street Blues. And it's just for the most part it's just him. His brother plays on some of it.

47:03 And there's never a moment on that record when he's playing that I feel like it needed anything else. But there's a lot of just cross picking accompaniment. So with that, it's almost like you're outlining things underneath. It's like you're playing and that I guess that would be a dynamic thing that would be happening underneath at all times.

47:20 Yeah, that's cool. It's and so I did try to think about that or like, you know, practice songs that I knew I was going to do in a solo set and try to figure out ways that I could make myself more accompanied, you know. I well, I noticed the difference on an acoustic when it comes to the top, the higher register notes within chords.

47:41 So like this, this chord like this, you might play this on electric and it'll sound fine, but you got to really make sure to hit that note right there. And, and having the the precision to use that word again to make those melodic notes stand out in a kind of convoluted rhythm section. It's really, really an art. I think there's a lot of it for me, like I'll think of something like that where I want to play each individual note instead of a strum.

48:10 And I think I've gotten rid of a lot of like, if I'm playing Fred, I'll just play something off that There's a lot of stuff that's happening that kind of sounds like a strum, but it's really just single note. It's just your single notes are so fast and precise that they almost sounds like a strum. I'm noticing something new about the acoustic guitar that you're sort of treating those top two strings almost like a like a hi hat or, or just like a, a symbol almost. And these are the the drums.

48:57 And these are like kind of brushing every now and then they'll ring out a little bit just for texture. I do think like for me, like the high strings, I always bring them in for rhythm playing and I and I'll, I don't know that it was that I really thought about it as much, but I do remember when I was a kid, I got to to play some with Johnny Cash.

49:22 You did? Yeah. And and. Dude, tell us about that bro. Oh. Really, I was, I played some, we were going to, they were doing a record, like a duo record and all like Carter family stuff. And I mean that's the style I grew up on was all the like Wildflower that I played earlier. Everything that I learned when I was a kid was that. And so they were going to do those songs. But when I really like got into studying Maybelle Carter stuff, there's all every like every, every time she would hit a down stroke, there was an up stroke happening. So like for instance, she played thumb and finger stuff. There's a lot of that always happening for texture. And I think I brought that in a lot with my rhythm playing. Almost subconsciously, maybe,

50:13 yeah. Yeah, like because I don't play that way how it just be I would bring it in Yeah and I studied those records so much that I think it changed the way I play rhythm quite a bit. And even when I play like to to your point, I think that's true. It's like I'll I'll hit a lot of upstrokes on the 1st 2 strings that I'm maybe not even necessarily aware of that are just happening as almost drone notes that, you know, just kind of stay there and.

50:37 How old were you when you played with Johnny Cash? Right after the Opry video. So it was it was 2002. That was a good year. Yeah, it was a good year. 2002 was great. Hits on that. What was that like bro? It was pretty awesome. I mean, I grew up in the very corner of Tennessee, right across the line from like Bristol, VA.

50:54 And so there's still, it's still up there in Hilton's, which is right close to Bristol, the Carter fold, which is where like AP and Sarah Carter started that in the 70s. It's just a like barn on the this two lane Rd. in Virginia. And every Saturday night they still do shows there. But if you keep going down that road, like less than a mile, maybe I'll, maybe I'll Carter's cabin is still there.

51:20 And so this would have been I think the last last year they were alive and they were going back quite a bit to that cabin. And so I met them because of the 1st place I ever played was the Carter fold. Like I, I knew one song. Dude, you were, you were blessed by the. That's like the holograms. Yeah, that's.

51:37 Insane and that so at the time it was ran by Jeanette Carter was AP and Sarah's daughter. And so she would just let me come up and play during the intermission and and play Carter family songs and and then yeah, she introduced me to to Johnny and June and. But it was all studying that Carter family. So I think that's the reason I got to do that was because it was, you know, I was so into that music and. Where is it?

52:02 Was that when you played with him? Yeah, yeah. That was first place I played with him was there. And then I played at June's birthday party that year. Did you play her? Happy Birthday I. Didn't play, nobody played. Happy birthday. OK, here's a here's a question. I don't know if you remember this, but like this sounds so heavy to me, like that you were in that like with that crew of people and I'm sure they're obviously beautiful people, but that's like that's like some heavy heavyweight music family.

52:30 So like, was the energy like really loose and carefree or was it like, all right, Trey's going to play now. Were you like this? Were you like? No, it's really loose. It was really loose. And honestly that that party's specifically was like, you know, it was only family and a few friends and, you know, like I met Tom T. Hall, which is a.

52:52 Well, I love Tom T. Yeah, so Tom T was there and he, he and Miss Dixie owned a house right across the road from Mabel's cabin. Did you get to jam with Tom T? Hall Yeah, my first come on, the first album I ever did. If you guys don't know who Tom T. Hall is, that's like gold. Now he's the best. Well, he he did this, this thing, him and his wife, like in the in the early 2000s up until, you know, I don't know when they stopped doing it, but they and not a lot of people knew it, but they had a, you know, great studio in their house and they had a separate house on their property.

53:24 And they would specifically have bluegrass bands come in and they could use their studio for free. And like Tom T would produce your and it was, you know, just if he liked you, he would let you come to his house. And so because of Johnny Cash, that's the first album I ever did was at Tom TS. Dude, that's insane. Yeah, it was great.

53:42 A few months ago on Marketplace, I'm a Facebook marketplace dweller, someone had Tom, one of Tom's old guitar cases really, and the guy wanted 50 bucks for it. And it was up there for like 4 days and like I just saw and I was like what? And it was just this beater 70s case, but it looked like you've been around the world like 10 times. I hit the guy up, I was like 2, can I buy this case? He's like, man, I just sold it this morning and I was like, oh, you.

54:05 Can't wait on a Tom T case too long you. Can't wait on that. Dude, that's awesome. That was a core part of my childhood. I've my remember my uncle really liked Johnny Cash and I spent a lot of time with him. And so I would, that was a biggie. But I think Marty was probably, you know, that happened early on.

54:21 But I remember growing up in the 90s and I, I never really liked like the CMT country stuff, but I, we couldn't avoid it. But I remember seeing Marty on television. He was always different. I always liked his music. Is there with bluegrass, is it kind of like because like in the Blues, I know there's a lot of people that are very traditional and there's a very there's a code and like you do you do this or you're not? It's almost like, is it that way in the bluegrass world a lot. And there's people that are like, I, I play traditional bluegrass or I play this type of bluegrass. You know what I'm?

54:55 Trying there's there's a lot of like the whole trad world. I love like flat and scrubs and some building row stuff and the trad world can get a little yeah, just very. I mean they're so into it that like bluegrass only existed in 1946 and anything after that was a mistake, you know, and like even you can hear it in G chords like those that group of people will play AG like that and they keep the BS open.

55:25 But like any anybody that's into like Tony Rice or modern bluegrass gets rid of the GS. So like your A is muted and you're cutting out the so it's almost like this happier chord that you hear for I always think of like John Denver. Ladies and gentlemen, John Denver. I got to get rid of those bees. I could see that being a thing for sure with bluegrass, but yeah, I feel like you embody so much. Like obviously there's the bluegrass in, but you have like a total.

56:02 I don't know, man. I feel like you could sit with anybody. Well, I like, I like everything, you know, And so that's part of it is like I just could never get in that circle where it was like, you have to be this way, you know, because it's, there's so much, there's so much music that I have tried to absorb. When I was a kid in East Troy, WI, we had a big bluegrass festival.

56:23 It would be on the square every year and people would come in in their vans, you know, and, and people would jam, dude, and they'd sit in circles and bluegrass. And I remember my mom, she, bless her, she goes, you should take your guitar up to the bluegrass. Festival. It'll be fine me. And my friend Brad, Literally, we got our electrics, bro.

56:42 And we walk. We're like 15. I'm wearing like a Dark Side of the Moon shirt thinking like people are like jamming, you know? And we walk up and we just see them playing. We have our guitars and we just go, dude, let's go. Let's go back to. You, you're so scared. They're all it was. It was hilarious.

56:59 Dude, it is a whole world, man. It's it's a very, and everybody's so funny because I grew up in it like the East Tennessee, you know, we're talking about ETSU. They've got a bluegrass. You can imagine you could go there and like get a major in bluegrass, you know, like you can, you can study all about it and it's great, you know, great program, but it's really so like that.

57:20 When I was a kid, there was still weekly jams at multiple spots, you know, like every Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, and I would go, you know, 10-11 years old. And like Saturday night. I've left a lot of times, like get there at 7:00 or 8:00 and leave when the sun's coming up, you know, and just just play all night, you know?

57:40 Do you feel like like as it is with Blues, we just went on a Blues cruise with Bonamassa and obviously it was a ton of fun. I, I, I looked at it just now, but do you ever feel man, like with the bluegrass thing? I mean, I feel like you, you're able to bring people in in a cool way because there's a lot of especially guitarists and people that would never really get into that, but they could hear Someone Like You and they could go, wow, I love this sound.

58:03 I love this style. In fact, you're a great gateway for people now to get into bluegrass. Yeah, I would hope so. I mean, that's that. I love it. And I get why it's a acquired taste. You know, if you hear like some of the traditional stuff, I grew up around it. It makes sense to me, you know, But I feel like, yeah, even just playing with other people, like it's, it makes sense.

58:27 Like it clicks. I always think of that, like I got into, you know, like Slayer and stuff when I was a teenager. And it made sense. Like for me, it sounds so akin to like bluegrass playing Slayer. Yeah. I don't know why it's like the the guitar player. Slayer's actually bluegrass dude. Slayer is bluegrass.

58:43 I'll send Carrie. King comes out with the towel. He busts through that door. What'd you say? Guitar World presents Carrie King the bluegrass. Carrie King's new signature banjo did. You ever meet those? Dudes, were you doing that That one thing?