791. Jim Weiner & Charlie Foltz, Allagash Abductions

0:13 Gentlemen, welcome. So glad to have you here in my humble abode.

0:17 Well, thank you for having us. It's a pleasure and an honor.

0:20 Well, thank you.

0:22 We talked back in 2013 after a conference, and I don't know if you recall this or not. My show was only audio back then. But the problem was, and Peter Robbins was there too at the time, The problem was that we couldn't get people to be quiet. So people who have listened to the show over the years are going, oh my God.

0:44 Why did you do that there?

0:46 So we were at the Exeter UFO Festival and I wrangled you guys, threw you in my car, brought you over here so we can sit here in a nice quiet place this time.

0:57 So thank you all for that.

0:59 Now, I always have to think of this in a way where there's new people listening that Do not know what happened when someone mentions the Allagash incident.

1:11 But let's, I don't know, which one of you want to do in more or less a nutshell? I mean, there's a lot to it.

1:18 Well, 50 years ago this year, my friend Jim and his identical twin brother Jack and I had all gone to the same college and we had discussed going on an extended camping and canoeing excursion in northern Maine so it took us 51 years ago we started accumulating everything and breaking in our shoes and everything for the following summer and we ended up going up to northern Maine climbing Mount Katahdin and then we were planning on 17 days on the Allagash lakes and river system And so you had to fly in on a bush plane with pontoons, land on a lake, take off from a lake as well.

2:12 But once we got there, we were checked in with a ranger who made sure we had enough provisions and safety equipment for our trip. And when we expected to be out, because if you're not out when you think you're going to be, then they start looking for the remains. Right, right. So it was on our second day on the lake system.

2:42 We were on Chamberlain Lake, and it was kind of a windy day, overcast, and we were paddling into the wind all day long. Finally, we found a place to set up camp but the wind was blowing right on the camp so we abandoned that to the sheltered side of this inlet there were other people there and they had asked had we seen two young members of their party two teenage boys and we told them we had seen them and so they were looking for them it was getting on toward dark so we were looking through her binoculars, looking across the water, and then one of the people mentioned something across the lake, and Jim was using his binoculars looking at this light that was like moving at the pace a balloon would move, but it

3:45 was like going into the wind, and then it just sort of disappeared into the night sky. And we didn't think much about it simply because we were looking for two young people that were missing from this other group.

4:04 Can I mention something?

4:05 Sure.

4:05 The one thing that I noticed about this light, because I was looking at it through binoculars, was it had a weird quality to it. It wasn't like just a spotlight or a plain light.

4:18 It had some.

4:21 a strange quality to it, which I couldn't really put my finger on.

4:24 It was, it was different.

4:27 And when it, Does that also, the color was a color, kind of a different color?

4:32 It was a little bit on the yellow side, I thought, looking at it through binoculars. And, uh, when I was looking at it, it just, it blinked out. But instead of just like, instantly blinking out, it went, it imploded on itself.

4:48 Hmm.

4:48 Like a, a camera lens. Hmm.

4:51 And shutting your f-stop down.

4:52 You know, shutting your f-stop down. It just went like that. Wow. Which I thought was strange.

4:58 But, you know, like, I didn't really dwell on it because we were, like Charlie said, we were looking for these two kids out on the lake and it was dark already. So we were really worried about them more than anything else. And we only observed this thing for.

5:16 A few seconds. Yeah, a few.

5:18 So it's probably something. A little more than a few seconds, but less than a minute.

5:22 Pardon me.

5:23 Probably something you didn't really think about that much until after other events.

5:27 Yes. Well, that was on our second day. We tried making it to another destination on day three, but were unable to go up the Allagash River to Allagash Lake, which is a primitive spot that we really wanted to go to.

5:46 Hmm.

5:47 So it was eating too much of her time and energy and everything else to try and fight her way. So we went back down the river, camped overnight. And then on the third day, we went out on Eagle Lake. We did a three-quarter mile portage from Chamberlain Lake over to Eagle Lake. Well, with the four of us, we lashed poles. across the canoes and then we two guys on each side of the canoe made it a lot a lot easier to transport and so we wanted to get out to Pillsbury Island where Thoreau had camped but there was a canoeist maybe about a quarter of a mile or so in front of us and that was where they went and since we'd already camped two nights with other people we decided we wanted to be away from the group and so we camped at Smith Brook

6:49 campsite on Eagle Lake and we set up the camp and we decided to go fishing that night to supplement our food supply well the area of Eagle Lake that we wanted to go to was where the stream emptied down into the into the lake And we set a campfire up to burn for maybe around three hours or so. And it took us over 20 minutes to work our way through standing stumps and deadfall underneath the water. And we just started fishing. We'd been out there maybe about 15 minutes maybe. It took us 20 minutes to get there.

7:45 15 minutes we were fishing. And then the other guy that was with us said, what the blank is that? So we all turned and looked to the back of the canoe. And I saw this, the moon. You know, just about an aspirin size white light. And I'm thinking, what's the moon? But then I noticed it was moving at about this speed from right to left. And I'm there like, What the hell is that? And then it started getting larger. And we realized that it was approaching us.

8:22 And at a certain point, the tops of the trees we could see were illuminated by this thing. And we watched it moving in total silence, not moving the trees at all. They were static. And when it was about maybe... approximately 100 yards from us, I decided I'll shine a flashlight at it, see what it'll do. So I picked the flashlight up and I flashed a quick SOS, three short, pretty long, three short, just out of curiosity. And well, when I did that, it stopped dead. And this beam of light just shot right down from the bottom of it, hit the water, and then the beam of light started coming across the surface of the water toward us. And then I realized the sphere was coming with this beam of light. So I was no longer as curious as

9:23 I was. And I replaced the flashlight with a canoe paddle, locked my eyes in the campfire, and was moving as quick as I could move. I was getting encouraged by the twins, Because each one was paddling with their hands out of the side of the canoe, screaming, paddle, Charlie, paddle. So I was locked on the fire, but Jim and Jack, they were looking at this thing.

9:51 Yeah, when, there's a couple, did you mention the size of this thing?

9:56 It was about the size of a two. two-and-a-half-story house.

10:01 Yeah.

10:03 And as soon as I saw it, I realized it was the same kind of light that I had seen two days prior. It was like this round, bright, yellowish-white, and it had a weird quality where it... seemed to be moving like it was roiling.

10:22 It was active, like physical.

10:23 It was constantly moving around.

10:26 Second time I've heard that in two days.

10:28 Yeah.

10:29 From another person I spoke to yesterday, had an orange orb, showed me a picture of what it looked like, a Navy, retired Naval aviation engineer, and this thing was rolling like it was alive.

10:42 Yeah, yeah.

10:43 It reminded me of the kind of, Fire, you see one, because I used to work as a potter. At the time when we went up there, I was attending Boston University and Benjamin Franklin Institute of Artisanry in Boston.

10:59 I was in a ceramic program. So we fired a lot of kilns.

11:05 And when you get a kiln to 23, 2400 degrees Fahrenheit, which is pretty close to white heat, And you look in the kiln. Anytime you fire a kiln, it's got these little portals in it that you plug with a brick. So you can pull the brick out and look inside with the proper eye protection. And you can see the flame going through the kiln. And when you do that, it's almost like a plasma. It's constantly moving like it's alive.

11:33 That's what this movement reminded me of.

11:36 And when you say, was the whole entire object alight?

11:40 Yeah. Yes.

11:41 Yeah, and it had, like you've seen, halos around the moon.

11:45 Yes.

11:46 This had a halo around it. And the nearest thing, people used to ask me what it looked like. I would say, if you are in a dark room, you turn a 25-watt incandescent light on, looking at the filament area, and then turn it off. the after image you would have would be about the closest proximity to describing what this was like for us to see.

12:17 And the thing about the beam that shot out at us, it wasn't like a spotlight beam.

12:26 It wasn't solid.

12:27 It was like a straw, like a tube or a straw. Like a glass straw.

12:32 The wall.

12:33 It wasn't like a light. It wasn't like a light.

12:35 It was like a.

12:36 This reminds me of what Colonel Halt was describing at the Rendlesham Forest. The beam that came down at him wasn't like a regular light, and I'm wondering if there's any similarities.

12:46 I don't know.

12:47 It was kind of, it reminded me, it was a bluish white. It was like the wall of the tube was a bluish white color, but it had this kind of sparkle to it, like If you're in a dusty room and light is coming through the window and you can see the dust motes in the light and they kind of have this kind of sparkly effect, that's what it looked like. But the inside of the tube was dark.

13:13 There was no light there.

13:14 Did it actually touch down on the water?

13:16 Yes.

13:19 Yes. Came straight toward us.

13:24 Oh, yeah, it was like we were locked on us. We must have lit up like a candle because our canoe is aluminum.

13:32 I wonder if you didn't flash the light if that would have happened.

13:35 I don't know. I oftentimes thought about that. But, yeah, like I say, it took us over 20 minutes of careful navigation to get to the fishing site. But when this thing started chasing us, it only seemed like a couple of moments had passed, and Jack, Jim, and I were standing on the shore, and the other fellow was seated in the back of the canoe, sort of staring into nothingness, and he still had to paddle across his lap.

14:13 Chuck rack?

14:15 Yeah. And at any rate. I was curious because this thing had followed us right to our campsite and was maybe, what, about 40 feet or so above the surface of the water?

14:29 Yeah, it's that.

14:30 And I picked the flashlight up again. Didn't learn, huh? Well, I just wanted, now that I wasn't afraid to drown, I mean, I was afraid of drowning on the water, but, you know, I figured I'd be eaten by mosquitoes if I was, but they'd find the body, you know.

14:45 And at that time, the light was coming down straight onto the water. So it was, you know, the craft was up here and this light was coming down and just sitting on the water.

14:56 Same exact type of light tube?

14:58 Yeah. I think so. It was sort of like... I mean, you couldn't.

15:02 See it because it's not at an angle.

15:05 You're seeing it as a solid wall of light. So in that sense, it looked different. But it was the same light.

15:13 Yeah.

15:14 And it was close. I mean, this thing was close. We all.

15:17 said, boy, we could pick a rock up and hit it just by throwing it.

15:22 That's how close it was. So this thing was huge. It was as big as a two-story house, if not bigger.

15:27 Was there any reaction when you flashed the second time?

15:30 Well, when I flashed the second time, the light that Jim just described, it was sort of like maybe a golf ball setting on a tee type of a situation. The light disappeared, and it started moving across the lake away from us. And then when it got to the opposite side of the lake, it began to ascend at a 45 degree angle. For some reason, I didn't know why until years later when I was hypnotically regressed, I knew this thing was about to accelerate at a high rate of speed. I don't know why I felt that, but I did. So I looked for the sweep hand on my watch. And while I was doing that, this thing was apparently skipping steps, moving like so up into the sky. I didn't witness this, but the other guys did.

16:26 You know like when you're throwing a frisbee and all of a sudden it goes up?

16:31 Yeah, the air.

16:32 That's what it did.

16:33 It would go like this for a bit and then all of a sudden it would go up here and then it would go up here.

16:37 Wow.

16:38 But it always maintained its approximate 45 degree angle on its ascent.

16:45 Yeah.

16:47 And the other thing that it did, which I should mention, is just before when the light from underneath went, it again went like that. And then I knew, I knew then that that was the same thing I saw two days prior through my binoculars.

17:05 Same behavior.

17:08 Really makes you wonder.

17:09 I know what the Allagash is like, and it's so desolate. It really makes, not desolate, but There's just so much land, open.

17:17 Land, waterways. Oh, yeah, it's totally primeval up there.

17:19 Why would it go there in the first place? It's such a puzzle.

17:23 Because it wouldn't be to explore animals, or I don't think, or humans, definitely not.

17:30 But the nature's beautiful.

17:32 Well, there's a lot of people up there, and there's enough cover where if they wanted to abduct somebody, if it's aliens, that's the place to go.

17:41 Yeah, in the summer there is a lot of people going through there.

17:43 There's a lot of people, like thousands of people go up the Allagash every summer.

17:46 Yeah.

17:48 And the other thing we should mention is this thing was totally silent.

17:52 I mean, no noise.

17:54 And the wind was coming towards us that night on the lake.

17:58 It was clear as glass.

18:01 And the lake was like glass. And it's so dark up there. I mean, you can literally put your hand right here and you don't see it. Yeah.

18:10 And there's no noise. There's no crickets. There's no frogs. You might hear a loon call every now and then. But other than that, it is absolutely silent. And this thing made no noise. And when it went, it had to be going faster than the speed of sound. Because it only took seconds.

18:29 For it to be from where we were to looking like a star. Pinpoint of light.

18:34 There's never been a case that I've heard of since I've been doing this where there was a sonic boom.

18:39 No matter how hypersonic. It just never happens.

18:44 So you get on shore, and what's different?

18:48 Well, after this thing disappeared into the sky, I was suddenly exhausted. It was just like all my energy just poured out of me. And I looked at the fire, and I had been paddling, toward a blazing flame. But yet now, the flames were only maybe about an inch in height, little wisps of flame and coals. And I asked everybody, I said, should I throw some more wood on the fire? And they're like, forget the fire, I'm turning it in. So all of us just basically went, grabbed our sleeping bags, and called it a night. never talking about this thing that had chased us. Yet the following morning, that was the only topic we would discuss.

19:44 Did anyone bring up at that time anything about the fire being down to embers?

19:48 No, no. I mean, because you know when you light a fire, it's going to burn out because fires burn out. So we didn't think anything more about it other than it was out. And it was pointed out to us maybe about a dozen years later by a MUFON investigator by the name of Raymond Fowler and Raymond Fowler actually took a strong interest in our particular incident and Jim met him at a conference in Waltham and discussed and described our experience and he ended up asking us to fill out official report forms for MUFON and each one of us individually did so and mailed them off to Ray and that began what about a four year experience for us over the course of the next four.

20:56 Years 88 to.

20:57 92 Ray is one of the most incredible investigators in the field that probably ever was Oh, yeah.

21:08 He's still going. Oh, yeah.

21:10 He's in his 90s now.

21:12 He can't hear, unfortunately, because I've invited him on the show, and he said he can't participate because of his hearing.

21:18 Yeah.

21:18 And that's unfortunate.

21:20 But he's still writing and publishing.

21:21 Right.

21:23 Two years ago, he sent me a book, and I had it on the side of my website for people to buy. It just came out, I think it was two years ago.

21:30 Amazing.

21:31 Oh, he's an incredible man.

21:34 And.

21:35 Thorough researcher.

21:37 Yeah, I mean, he went so far as to contact the archives of the weather for that area, as well as the position of the moon, and so on. And all these things, you know, were in correlation with everything we had told him. And so he took each one of us a single... member at the time, over the course of a couple of years, did hypnotic regressions on us.

22:12 At that time?

22:14 Yes, yes.

22:15 Between 88 and 93? Because the book came out in 93. Well, not in 93 is when the book was published. Yeah, so it was like 88 to 92. We joined in for multiple regression sessions. I think it was like two apiece.

22:29 Yeah, yeah.

22:31 Okay, so.

22:32 And we didn't, no one... talked about their sessions between the four of us.

22:38 And we also had to submit our artwork to him without showing it to any of the others so there'd be no collusion. We weren't allowed to discuss it with one another.

22:51 That makes total sense.

22:52 Yeah, sure.

22:53 That's the right way to do it. So, let me ask you this. Jim, I want you to tell what happened to you.

23:04 And if.

23:06 When you were working at that home in Calais, Maine.

23:09 Yes.

23:09 But I also would like to save for the end what you told me last night, if that's okay. And it's for the person who was listening. It's not really related to this topic and UFOs, but it's really an incredible experience that Jim had.

23:25 When he basically died.

23:28 Yeah.

23:28 Yeah.

23:29 But if you could, can you... Years go by.

23:33 Yeah, this was, well, only two years had gone by. My accident was in 1978. I was helping a friend of a friend move his family into a summer house up in Calais, Maine. And we had gone up to Calais and we were preparing this house for him and his family to move into.

23:59 For the summer. And it was a rainy day.

24:02 So at the end of the day, I said, geez, you know, we just tracked in a ton of mud into this place, so we should maybe clean up a little bit. So I said, is there a broom closet anywhere? You got brooms anywhere? And this was an old Victorian house, multiple story. And between the first floor and the second floor, there was– landing with a small room off the landing, which I guess in those days when the house was built was used as a baby's room. So like if the baby started crying or needed something, you got to it just as fast from the second floor as you could from the first floor. And then after the kids grow up, they use them as a sewing room or something like that.

24:48 I don't know.

24:49 But anyway, in this room was a closet, which was the broom closet. and the broom closet, unbeknownst to me, had a stairwell that went into the basement, and the owners of the house had taken the stairwell away, but they left the interior floor, what was left of the floor, minus the space where the stairwell was.

25:18 I didn't know this, and neither did the guy that I was with.

25:22 So he said, yeah, just go up to this there's a closet in there all the brooms and things are in there just grab whatever you want so I go into this room and I go to open the door and the door opens about 10 inches and then it jams it opened inward so I was like what the heck is this you know so I had enough space where I could kind of like get my head inside it was dark but there was enough light from the door space being open that I could see the floor and of the the closet and there were on the wall were hooks with coats and things and there were brooms and along you know leaning up against the wall and there was a chair that appeared to have fall fallen against the door um so i was like oh

26:16 okay i don't know how that happened but i'll move the chair away so i could get the door open enough and i'll i'll swing my way around i'll arc my way in onto the door The space where the stairs were was just dark.

26:32 It was just black.

26:33 But that didn't bother me because the lighting seemed right to be just illuminating the floor enough for me to see. I mean, it wasn't black dark, but it was dark. But I could still see objects on the right side of this. So I arced my way in to get the chair and I had to step back to get the door closed again so that I could get the chair away from the door totally. And so I stepped back and when I stepped back there was nothing there.

27:12 And I just went down into the basement. From the second floor? Well, it was the floor between. It was 14 feet. And when I hit the floor I hit in a sitting position. totally upright sitting position, rammed my spinal cord up into my brain, broke third, fourth, fifth lumbar, first sacral, first, second sacral, and then almost severed the sciatic nerve where it goes through your hip.

27:41 All this I found out later, of course, in the hospital. But I immediately went into shock.

27:48 And when the fellow I was with realized what happened, he ran... to a neighbor house right next door to where we were because we were in the town of Calais. And Calais at that time didn't have a hospital. They had a cottage. So he called the cottage and he said, look, you've got to get an ambulance here. There's a terrible accident that just happened. And you need to get an ambulance here. And they said, well, we have an ambulance, but it just left 10 minutes ago to drive to a neighboring town to pick up a baby to bring back for adoption.

28:26 And I don't know in.

28:27 What way he said it to them, but he convinced them to reroute the ambulance.

28:33 So they called the ambulance.

28:35 And when the ambulance got the call, they were literally right in front of the house.

28:39 Amazing.

28:40 And they just pulled into the driveway. Well, in that.

28:44 Period of time, while all this was happening, I was laying in the bottom of this house. And all of a sudden, I couldn't move. at all and I was going I knew I was going into shock.

28:56 Because I could feel the cold in my legs just like ice cold started coming in started in my feet and started coming up my legs fast it wasn't slow this wasn't like a slow type thing it's like this thing was just climbing and I was like oh my god what's going to happen when it hits my chest you know am I dying now and then just like that I was like.

29:20 In this total velvet blackness I had no pain. I actually felt kind of euphoric. And I thought, oh my God, I think I just died. I can't believe this.

29:32 I can't believe this just happened to me.

29:35 And so I was like wondering what's gonna happen next because i was certain i was dead that's how i felt because everything was like it was totally different it's like i was in another dimension or something and then all of a sudden this light hit the back of my arms this bright brilliant white light because i could see the penumbra from the shadows coming off the front of my arms going like five six feet into this inky blackness and I'm like what the heck is going on here something you know where is this light coming from so I tried to I decided I was going to like change my point of view instead of looking from in front of me to get behind me so I could see where this light was coming from I

30:24 got far enough I got my point of view to move far enough behind me where there was this perfectly round white sphere of light. Brilliant white light. And it wasn't like a light that had rays coming out of it. You know, like a spotlight or a light that sends out rays of light. I'm going to ask you something really weird. Was it anything like the UFO you saw?

30:55 No. Okay. No, this was a flat white light. It was like so many years ago.

31:03 It's almost 50 years ago, and I can see this in my mind's eye like it happened yesterday. It was as if you had a sheet of black velvet, and you took a cookie cutter, popped out a circle of that fabric, and then behind that circle is this just white whiteness, brilliant whiteness.

31:26 But not shining through it. It was behind it. And I couldn't tell.

31:32 I mean, I didn't see like a sheet of black velvet. It's just this light. But that's the best way I could describe it appearing. And it was coming towards me. But I couldn't tell if it was like maybe six feet in diameter and 20 feet away. Or if it was the size of the sun and a million miles away. You know, because there's no sense of scale.

31:54 Yeah.

31:55 But I knew it was coming. It was getting bigger and it was coming closer. And like at that point, I.

32:01 Was like, whoa. You know, I said a few things that I don't want to mention on camera. And then all of a sudden I blinked my eyes and these two guys were looking down into my face and they're like, welcome back.

32:18 You're the luckiest guy on the planet. And the first thing that came out of my mouth was, everything is different. That was the first thing I said, because it was. Like, light seemed different. Everything seemed, I mean, it was the same. I mean, it was like real, but it was a different kind of real. And for years, and I mean years afterwards... I truly believe that everybody I knew were imposters.

32:52 My brother was an imposter. My girlfriend was an imposter. Charlie was an imposter. All these people that I knew were somehow different in some way. They looked the same, but they didn't feel the same.

33:08 That's pretty scary.

33:09 Yeah, it was like really, really weird.

33:11 I was like, you know, for, I mean, I thought about this a lot like why why is why are these people not them and i thought well maybe i maybe i did die and maybe i went into another parallel universe or something or i just didn't know all i knew was everything was different and um and i couldn't figure out why i couldn't put my finger on it time felt different like the passage of time just seemed different to me light seemed different to me and I you know I had discussions on along these lines with the neurologist at the hospital of course and the neuropsychiatrist they told me that this kind of reaction was common for people that have had severe head injuries and you know that I didn't really die I didn't really

34:11 like go into another universe parallel universe it's just part of the brain damage like Since everything happens in your brain, when you damage the brain, it changes the way you perceive the world around you. That was their argument, which made sense to me. They said, Jim, this is common. Don't worry about it. Eventually, it'll go away. Along with those feelings, I had a feeling that not all of me came back wherever I was, that there was still a part of me on the other side, if that's the term you want to call it, but whatever that was, I felt, and I still feel that part of me is still there somewhere. And every now and then I'll be, I could be reading a book or driving in the car or walking or riding my bicycle. And I'll just,

35:09 the way the light hits something or a noise, and then that feeling comes back and it's like, It's not a thought. It's a bodily feeling.

35:20 Wow. And then I go, ooh, yeah, there he is again, you know.

35:24 Wow, that is really something, really something.

35:27 But what that did was because of that, because of the damage, spinal and brain damage, I wound up with temporal limbic epilepsy.

35:39 So I was having.

35:42 Seizures.

35:42 Yeah, seizures.

35:45 And so, which took, I wasn't, they were unable to diagnose those until 1983. But when they finally did that, then they, I had a team of doctors at Beth Israel Hospital who dealt with me as a patient. And one of the people on this team was a guy named, I think, Jonathan Silverman. He was a neuropsychiatrist. they had me in the hospital doing some EEG, because I was having nightmares, that's when I started having nightmares, maybe a little sooner than that, 83, I think it was like 81, maybe 80, 81, I started having these nightmares, where I would be in my bedroom at night, and I'd wake up, and there would be these figures moving around, and they would be touching me, and pulling on my arms but I couldn't it was dark of course so I couldn't

36:50 make out who they were I became super paranoid like in the middle of summer at night I would go around the apartment and close and lock all the windows and literally padlock myself inside my bedroom wow that's how paranoid I got because they were repetitive and they were extremely distressing.

37:13 Hmm So anyway, this was.

37:15 Can I just ask you this? When you padlocked it, did it make any difference?

37:19 No.

37:19 It still came in.

37:20 Yeah.

37:21 And so because I wasn't sleeping because of these nightmares, it was affecting my seizure activity. It was going up. And so the neuropsychiatrist came in one day.

37:39 I was in the hospital and they had me hooked up to an EEG. monitoring station and he said um.

37:50 I would like you to talk about your nightmares because we can see you're not sleeping and when we we can see you're having like nightmare activity in your brain while you're asleep we're watching it on the eeg so what's going on what kind of nightmares are you having so i described these nightmares and at first i said you know i don't understand what the nightmares would have to do with the seizures but he's like well you have seizures you get the stress you're what's the word for it um stress levels go up yeah and so it affects your sleep and we need to like get your sleep back to normal so your seizures go down so i was like okay so that sounded right so i told him about these nightmares and well actually before

38:40 he came in well between After that, I got bored laying in bed and not being able to move because they want to keep your head as still as possible. So I had asked one of the nurses if she would bring me something to read just so I could kill the boredom. And what she brought in for me to read was Whitney Strieber's book, Communion. And when I saw the face, that face on the cover, I went off the... off the wall. I just went nuts. I was like, why did you bring this in here? What are you doing? Are you playing games with me?

39:20 I just freaked out.

39:24 And so they took the book away. And then a few minutes later... the neuropsychiatrist comes in and says, what's going on, Jim? And I said, I don't know, but I don't know. I don't know why I did that.

39:40 So that, in addition to the nightmares that I had described to him, he said, you know, I'm going to ask you a personal question, and I want you to answer it honestly. He said, have you ever seen a UFO? And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. And he's like, no, I'm not kidding you. So I said, yes, I have seen a UFO. And so he said, do you want to describe it?

40:17 You know, the experience. So I told him about the Allagash and he.

40:23 Said, you know, I just had dinner like a little over last week, maybe a little over a week ago with a guy named John, Dr. John Mack from Harvard University. And he's working right now with Pete, with clients and patients who have dreams very similar to yours and.

40:40 Who have also had UFO experiences.

40:44 And I think you should like maybe talk to him or talk to somebody in that field that deals with that kind of stuff. And at first I was like, no, there's no way I'm going to do that. You know, I, I don't want to have anything to do with that. You know, let's, let's come back to earth here and deal with seizures. So at first I was really against it, but then, Eventually he came in, he said, look, I really want you to do this. And in fact, if you don't do this for me, I don't think I can help you any further.

41:16 Wow.

41:17 So I was like, all right, if that'll please you, then I'll give it a try. So he said, there's a guy named Ray Fowler who's doing a, he's going to be at a conference next week in Waltham somewhere. I think it was the Marriott Hotel. I want you to go and see him. I'm going to call him and tell him that you're coming to talk to him.

41:39 Which he did. Excuse me.

41:43 So a week or so later I went and that's how I met Ray Fowler.

41:47 He was at this conference. At first he seemed.

41:50 Totally disinterested in me because he was selling books. It's just another story from some weird kid who he may not want to have anything to do with. But while I was talking with him i mentioned that i had an identical twin brother and as soon as i said that his ears went.

42:10 Up because a lot of times people say it's something like that yeah the baseline and the you know for the twins.

42:17 And well i didn't know that but at least in his research it it ticked the box so then he he stopped doing what he was doing and said, okay, I want you to tell me the story.

42:32 All over again.

42:33 I'll listen this time.

42:34 And I'll listen a little closer this time. And then afterwards, he said, well, boy, that's really interesting. He said, would you be interested in filing a report to MUFON, which is what all four of us did. And then after he got past that phase, he came back to.

42:52 Me and said, excuse me, would you guys be interested in undergoing hypnotic regression to see if there's any more details of this event that you may be able to remember, like why the fire was burnt down to ashes? He said, you know, have you ever heard of missing time? I was like, I have no idea what that is.

43:14 And he said, well, you may have had missing time, but we can find out more about that under these hypnotic regression sessions. So, That's what we did. We went in and agreed to do these hypnotic regressions separately and do anything.

43:32 If we remembered anything, because we were all artists, would we be willing to make drawings or sketches of things that we remembered?

43:40 So we said, sure.

43:43 And you had to remain separate. You couldn't talk about it, right?

43:46 Couldn't talk about it, and we wouldn't talk about it. Mm-hmm.

43:50 That must have been kind of hard, especially with your twin brother. It was hard, but, you know, you make a promise, you've got to stick by it. I mean, if you really want to find out, you know, like either something really, really bizarre happened or it didn't. So there's no sense, like, talking about it and polluting the information field.

44:09 Right.

44:10 Once you commit to that road of inquiry, you've got to stick to it. That's the way we.

44:15 Looked at it.

44:17 Now, eventually, you may.

44:19 want to be telling me this anyway but eventually did you ever get to look at each other's I know you did drawings but I mean each other's hypnotic you know transcript oh.

44:33 Yeah after it was all over and he brought us all together and presented you know he gave us each a whole thing of it everything that was said under hypnosis.

44:45 And were they basically pretty close to each other yes they were.

44:51 It wasn't in a consistent timeline, but things that we described were almost exactly the same.

45:01 But it was like snippets.

45:04 Snippets of memory where things were missing, but other things were clearly remembered.

45:10 And Charlie, do you want to kind of go over what.

45:13 Well, basically we all had the same recollections, but our points of view were a little different. It'd be like, if you got four people driving down the road in a car and there's an accident, the people in the back of the car, you all know you're in an accident, but the people in the back of the car are seeing things that the driver wasn't seeing. The driver's seeing things that, so the affair is the same, but your, you know, your points of view are slightly different. And, uh, So each one of us recalls details that sort of explain something that you were thinking about that you couldn't quite figure out. And all of this came to light when Ray brought all four of us together and laid out our artwork in front of us. And it was

46:13 freaking me out because everybody's artwork was so similar to you. the remembrance of the event. And so we were so impacted by it, we felt that we had to let as many people know about this as possible because we felt that it was life-changing. I mean, it did change our lives, individually, all of us, and even to the point where it changed how we made art.

46:45 That's what I want to dig into, but we'll get into that later.

46:49 I want to know more about that.

46:52 So at any rate, people that used to take me seriously as a professional medical illustrator and clinical medical photographer were now cracking jokes about me. I'd be up in the operating room, the patient's undergoing surgery, And these surgeons are busting my Aggies about, oh, you know, he got abducted by aliens.

47:21 That's awful.

47:21 Well, you're talking back in the early 90s. And this was still, the government was still denying everything. You know, all those don't exist. You know, that's a temperature inversion in the sky and all these other stupid explanations that they had. But, you know, 50 years later? I mean, you turn on any channel, history channels, PBS, there's all kinds of people doing reporting now on what people are seeing around the planet. And so the topic is now accepted more seriously. And even though this happened a half a century ago, there is still an interest in there.

48:14 A lot of people are unaware of our case. But, I mean, in the course of the last five decades, we've encountered some of the most incredible people and befriended many. I mean, famous authors, investigators, other experiencers like Travis Walton, whom we've known for about a quarter of a century. John Mack was a great friend of ours. Amazing.

48:47 Bud Hopkins.

48:48 Bud Hopkins, yeah.

48:49 Rich Dolan.

48:51 Oh, yeah. Giorgio Sluke.

48:53 David Jacobs.

48:54 Just lots of people that we've met and been able to talk to. Maybe you should describe some of the stuff you remember on the craft.

49:04 Yeah, I'd like to hear both of your points of what you remember.

49:07 Well, I... remember a lot of the details basically from the regression sessions. And the first thing I remember was looking at my toes and I was curious about where my socks were and then I was there like well where the hell are my shoes and then I'm looking down from my chest to my feet And I don't have any clothes on. So I'm like, well, where the hell are my clothes? And then I'm there like, where the hell am I? I'm trying to lift my head up.

49:54 I was almost at my physical peak of my age. I was in my mid-20s. I was a practicing martial artist. I was an avid bicycler, hiker. I mean, I was in good shape. And yet I wasn't restrained, but yet I was fighting like I was being pressed down. And I'm looking over my toes and I can see, my three companions, Jack and Jim and the other fellows, sitting on this bench like they were waiting for a bus or something. I couldn't open my mouth and speak, but in my brain I'm screaming, get up, help me, come on, you know, do something. And just about that time while I'm doing all that, this head sort of like comes out of my peripheral vision And looks right down into my face. And here comes the goosebumps again. A half

51:07 century later, I'm looking at these two eyes and this almost like an embryonic type of face looking at me. And I moved my head right back down, probably only about this far. But, you know, that's as far away as I could get. And all of a sudden, just like if you've had the experience of being in a roller coaster and you go to the drop and you feel your stomach or all your gravity come up in your chest. It had a similar feeling for me when I made eye contact with this being that my ability to communicate was as crystal clear as it is with us right now. But it was all telepathic. And I was told, relax, you're not in any danger, comply, and everything will be okay. So I'm there like, oh.

52:17 Do you think, this is a.

52:18 Weird question, but did it feel like English to you, or did you just know it?

52:23 Well, I mean, I understood what was being communicated. So, I mean... Yeah, maybe in English or not, but maybe through imagery or whatever. But there was a clear line of communication. There was no question about what was asked of me. And then they did their exam. And I remember one of the strange things when I was on the table, this like panel that came down from above somewhere.

52:57 and was over my chest, over my torso, I was in a curtain of the same quality blue light that this shaft of light, this sphere projected at us when we first saw it. At the time, I was a medical photographer and I would use ultraviolet film and ultraviolet light sources to photograph subcutaneous or veins just under the skin that you can't see with your naked eye. And so we use radiation in CAT scan machines to look at the inside of bodies. And now we've moved up to MRIs, magnetic resonant enhancement, where we're bombarding the body with a strong magnetic polarity field, and then we switch the field to another angle, all the iron atoms in your body will realign to the new polarity. And it's that movement that's read by the technology as an image

54:15 and creates the image that is used. And so their technologies sort of somehow, in a way, made me have a great interest in medical science. I had been going to college to be a school teacher. I wanted to teach art to kids. But after this, my focus was in medical science. I didn't know at the time that this incident that happened had led me down this path to the field that I ended up doing for 40 years.

55:02 But the same holds true for Jack and Jim, where Jack became obsessed with mathematics when we came back and started studying and talking to me about stuff. I'm like a first grader and you got some college professor throwing I don't understand what the hell you're talking about. I would have to tell Jack, put it in a language you would tell a six-year-old. Then I'll understand what you're talking about.

55:31 Yeah.

55:33 He started doing artwork that was using mathematics and grids. Yes, I've seen it. And Jim, his artwork changed from, like, pots, bowls, platters. Mm-hmm. to this sort of like organic, living works of art.

55:59 Yes, you and I were talking about that, Jim, last night. So let's continue, though, the experience and the craft. You had the examination, and I know that you looked over and you saw them Like doing, I remember you said something about moving someone's arm or something like that.

56:19 Well, yeah.

56:19 That's what I remember.

56:20 Jim was remembering.

56:21 Oh, you remember that. Yeah.

56:23 Okay, so let's go into what you saw there, Jim.

56:25 I didn't remember quite as much as these other guys because what would happen is I would get so worked up.

56:32 Mm-hmm.

56:33 I would like almost be going into a terror, because I was terrorized.

56:38 Yeah.

56:38 All I wanted to do was get out of there at any cost.

56:42 Mm-hmm.

56:42 Sure.

56:43 Because I thought they were going to, you know, dissect us or something. Yeah. That's the way I was. So I was like, I.

56:48 Was, these not, they were not loving me.

56:50 I was not loving them as much as I wish I could say that. Yeah. But I wasn't at that time. I was in fear of my life.

56:59 Mm.

56:59 Plain and simple.

57:01 And, um, I, so I would get so worked up under hypnosis that, uh, Ray and his co, um, tony no well tony was the hypnotist but there was david webb was the other investigator that was always present at the sessions along with ray they really were worried that i was going to have seizures and so they'd have to bring me out repeatedly you know and calm me down and then take take me back in so um anyway so they i felt and i still feel that i didn't They didn't get as much information from me as they did from Jack and Charlie and the other guy.

57:43 But I did remember some things. And one of the things I remembered was sitting on this bench next to Charlie and the other guy.

57:52 As he said.

57:53 Yeah, as Charlie said. And Jack was standing. And there were two beans. These, like, beans. They.

58:02 I remember describing their, it took me a while to remember their faces. I could remember their bodies at first, but I couldn't focus on their faces. It was like, it was like being partially anesthetized, you know, like, I don't know if like you've been partially anesthetized for any kind of surgical procedure, but like everything out here is really fuzzy and you might be able to focus on a little space just in front of you.

58:31 Yeah.

58:32 That's what it was like. And for some reason, I didn't want to look at their faces. But after a few sessions, a few attempts, I should say, I finally remembered what their faces looked like.

58:47 And I remembered saying, they're bugs.

58:48 They look like bugs.

58:50 And I remember describing this kind of like ant-shaped head that was.

58:58 More lateral.

58:59 It was like more up at an angle than... this way and they had these like big almond shaped eyes.

59:08 Were they black eyes?

59:09 Or like black I remember them as being blackish.

59:12 Yeah like a shark's eyes and then they.

59:14 Had like I remembered them having just like holes for a nose or a really small almost nothing for a nose but I remember seeing like holes here and I remember seeing something that looked like a slit for a mouth Mm-hmm.

59:30 But it could have been a mask.

59:32 Mm-hmm.

59:32 You know, I mean, that's how flat it was.

59:35 Mm-hmm.

59:36 And I remember they had really thin necks, like almost pencil thin necks and really thin arms.

59:42 Were they long necks?

59:44 Yes.

59:45 Mm-hmm.

59:45 They were long necks, longer than ours.

59:47 Mm-hmm.

59:48 And, well, maybe as long as ours, but much thinner.

59:52 Yeah.

59:53 Almost like a stalk almost. Mm-hmm. And they had four fingers, three or four, I remember it saying three. Three or four fingers. I remember that. And I remember that they were opposable.

1:00:09 So they folded.

1:00:10 Yeah, so the four fingers are like side by side. They had an articulating joint in the center of the palm. So they had four opposable digits.

1:00:22 So you saw this too?

1:00:23 Oh yeah, that's how their technology, the devices they would hold in their hands.

1:00:28 That's how they'd hold them.

1:00:30 I hear that's why if we didn't have opposable thumbs, we would never.

1:00:34 Be where we are now.

1:00:37 They definitely could do that. And they seemed to be wearing some kind of a suit, almost like a sheer spandex type of clothing that was really tight against their limbs. I don't remember.

1:00:54 Them saying anything to me. Um, but I would get, I knew what they wanted me to do. There was one, well, they were, what I remember was them inspecting, they were like examining Jack.

1:01:09 They were taking his arms and articulating him.

1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

1:01:12 And I remember thinking, Jesus, they're going way too far here. They're going to like, you know, twist his arm off or something.

1:01:18 Mm-hmm.

1:01:18 And they were.

1:01:19 Turning his head.

1:01:20 Like in a fast motion? Not fast.

1:01:22 But they were just really.

1:01:23 Steady.

1:01:23 Yeah.

1:01:24 You know, like this speed.

1:01:25 Mm-hmm.

1:01:26 To see how his arms articulated and his head. And they had a wand. It looked like a drumstick. Just like a drumstick. It was a long wand with this little bulb on the end of it. About the size of my little finger. The last joint. And they would do this.

1:01:52 Did it actually touch?

1:01:53 No, it was close.

1:01:56 They were like scanning.

1:02:00 At least that's the way it looked to me I mean you have to remember everything's kind of fuzzy and so it's like you're not seeing totally.

1:02:06 Clear and then they walked they walked him through.

1:02:12 Like a door but it wasn't a square door it was an arch space into another section of wherever we were we were in a space and I don't remember it smelling any particular way.

1:02:26 I don't remember any odors at all.

1:02:27 I don't remember it being particularly hot or cold.

1:02:30 It just seemed.

1:02:31 How about breathing?

1:02:33 I don't remember having trouble breathing.

1:02:37 I'm thinking of Travis Walton.

1:02:38 Yeah.

1:02:38 He had a hard time breathing.

1:02:40 Yeah, no, I don't remember having trouble breathing. But I wasn't really paying much attention to that stuff. All I was thinking about is how the hell we get out of here. That was my main.

1:02:53 focus how about any motion did you feel any motion of the craft whatever it.

1:02:57 Was no no no no no.

1:02:59 Steady is this room right here yeah okay and i and so they walked him off and then they came for me and they were doing the same thing with me and at one point they they wanted to walk me off towards this same area where they took jack and i couldn't see where he wasn't in there it was something it was.

1:03:24 I don't remember. Yeah, it was another space. And I didn't want to go. I balked.

1:03:30 And they took one of those wands and they stuck it in my rib, right where the nerve is.

1:03:34 There between the ribs. And I got the clear impression. I didn't hear a voice in my head, but I got the very clear message that you are going to do, you're going where we're taking you. And so they kind of prodded me.

1:03:52 Mm-hmm.

1:03:53 Into this space.

1:03:54 Wow.

1:03:54 And then the next thing I remembered was being on a, a, a slab, some kind of table, like a gurney. And there was, um, two of these beings, uh, like at my shoulders and two at my feet.

1:04:12 Mm-hmm.

1:04:12 And I can't remember if it was one or two, like in my, in the middle. I was so, so I was surrounded on this slab. Mm-hmm. And, um, I, I, I remember thinking, you know, they're close. I could grab one of them, snap its neck.

1:04:29 Oh, boy.

1:04:29 And, you know, create a distraction and maybe we could get out of here. Yeah.

1:04:36 And as soon as I had that thought, these things just, the ones at my shoulder just, they were like here in one blink of an eye and the.

1:04:46 Next blink of an eye they.

1:04:47 Were, away from you six feet away really so they could tell what you were thinking so they had to know what i was thinking wow and then the one of them that was near my feet and they kind of moved back a little bit um they one of them came in.

1:05:02 I mean this is weird the way these things got these instruments they used like you i don't remember seeing any instruments around.

1:05:12 Like if you go to a dentist's office you.

1:05:13 Know there's like all these drills and all this stuff there you know there's nothing in these rooms.

1:05:19 And would you describe them as like white, dark? Yeah, just evenly lit.

1:05:24 But kind of brightly. Like if you had your eyes dilated, how sensitive you are to light and you squint a lot. It was a similar type thing without the pain involved that you get from over-illumination. And as Jim was saying, these instruments, they would just like... When they put their hand up, they would come down with what they had.

1:05:48 Yeah.

1:05:48 Because they weren't like hanging or anything.

1:05:50 Yeah.

1:05:51 No, no, they couldn't see them. And it was like I saw them putting some of the samples that they had taken from us and like putting them into like a storage space or maybe it was some other type of machine. It was an analyzer. I don't know. But there was like no doors I saw open. It was just like everything was like bright in there and your field of actual vision was maybe less than eight to ten feet sort of like about the distance you are from us now that was about the limit of what i could see and make out and that was i could see the other guys on the bench when i was lying on this table and uh it was, you know, confusing.

1:06:49 The whole thing was just like over stimulation of your senses.

1:06:55 Yeah.

1:06:55 When he's, and when I had that thought about killing one and they moved away, one of them just, his hand went up in the air and when he came down, he had this like object in his hand that looked like a, a smooth hockey puck. It was like, convex on one side concave on the other but and a little more it wasn't perfectly round it was more of an oval shape but it reminded me of like a hockey puck and they stuck one on the outside of my shins right here on each leg and then I I like couldn't even feel my legs.

1:07:33 At all so that was like neutralizing.

1:07:35 Yeah so they were just that was that was my thought like okay now I'm really in it deep now mm-hmm But for years after that, skin would not grow in those two spaces.

1:07:47 Hair wouldn't grow.

1:07:48 I mean, yeah, I'm sorry, the hair wouldn't grow.

1:07:51 Wow. And his identical twin brother, Jack, had tumors removed from the exact same locations.

1:08:02 Did he have other tumors or just there?

1:08:04 Just there, as far as I recall.

1:08:06 Yeah, I think they're right about here, I think.

1:08:10 Yeah. There's photographs.

1:08:12 They were a little higher. I don't know if you can see this, but you might because of the way the light's hitting. See how the skin is still smooth here? But it used to be much more noticeable, but 50 years almost have gone by, so some of the hair is starting. Oh, and they also took a sperm sample from me. I remember that.

1:08:32 They had some kind of device that they used, and they got a sperm sample out of me, which was really... I felt so ashamed because it was clear that that's what they wanted because.

1:08:46 They were examining my parts. And I couldn't get an erection. I was too scared to get an erection. yeah so um you know but i had this this clear message in my head that you are going to give us wow some.

1:09:07 Sperm or you're going to give us what whatever you got to do here and so i just like thought had forced myself to think of like beautiful women and that sort of thing and And they finally got a sample out of me after a great ordeal.

1:09:24 So I remembered that.

1:09:26 Now, did they do that with everyone?

1:09:29 I think so.

1:09:29 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had, like, images of erotica flashed through my thought processes.

1:09:39 Yeah, this is amazing.

1:09:40 I mean, it's that they... All this stuff is, I didn't know this before.

1:09:46 Yeah, Jack remembered having all these, being in all these devices where they had like, they were like scanning him with these like, almost like electromagnetic pattern devices, which I have no memory of whatsoever. Charlie remembered standing... And looking out of a portal down at the canoe.

1:10:08 At the canoe and wanting to be there. Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:10:11 But I don't remember that.

1:10:12 So, like, each of us has these, it's almost like Charlie said, when you're in an accident, each person has.

1:10:17 Like, a different perspective.

1:10:18 Yes, yes.

1:10:19 Now, have either of you ever wondered if there were other, do I want to call them victims, other people that this craft studied elsewhere or around the area?

1:10:31 Has anyone ever wondered?

1:10:32 Come around and said about the same time this happened to me.

1:10:36 Yeah, only one person has come out over the years.

1:10:39 He was a forest worker up there at the time, a young guy. Yeah. I can't remember his name, but I have his letter that he sent to Ray. He actually wrote a letter to Ray years later, like 40 years later almost.

1:10:53 Something like that, yeah.

1:10:54 And he described seeing this craft or something like it.

1:11:00 Hmm.

1:11:01 When they were working out in the woods, him and his crew, he had a forest crew out in the woods up there.

1:11:06 And this craft came over one of his rigs.

1:11:13 And he remembered seeing a red.

1:11:17 Was it a red beam that came out?

1:11:19 Well, a red light.

1:11:20 Some kind of red light or a reddish beam come out.

1:11:23 I can't remember if it was just a light or a beam. But he.

1:11:26 Clearly had an experience up there. It was around the same time that ours was. I don't know if it was the exact same date.

1:11:34 I don't know.

1:11:34 I don't think he had a date in the letter. I'd have to look again.

1:11:38 You know, it would make you wonder if they were exploring what we are, you would think they would want to know what a female was.

1:11:47 You know?

1:11:47 Yeah.

1:11:48 And so that's kind of where I was going with that because... If they did that type of experiment with you, they probably.

1:11:55 Would want to have a female. Especially women who were up there at the time. But, you know, every time we'd run into other campers, we'd ask them. We'd say, geez, you know, did you ever see anything strange?

1:12:08 Yeah.

1:12:10 Nope, nobody saw anything.

1:12:11 Yeah, you guys are the strangest things we've seen. Thank you. Have a good day.

1:12:15 Yeah, bye now, right?

1:12:16 Yeah, so nobody, at least that's what, we never got anyone to admit that they saw, other than the people that were at that first campsite when we first saw the light.

1:12:26 Because there was a lot of people, not a lot, but a lot.

1:12:29 Oh, there was about eight of them. And the four of us.

1:12:33 Yeah, so there was, you know, and they all saw the same thing we saw that night. But the out on Eagle Lake event, nobody talked.

1:12:45 Admitted to seeing anything.

1:12:47 Yeah and maybe it could have gone anywhere in the world really if it can move like this thing.

1:12:52 Hard to say yeah i mean this thing could move so fast yeah i don't think it would have any problem going from here to china and you know a minute.

1:13:01 All right so let's shift gears a little and let's talk about the aftermath and i think it's really really interesting that everyone's art changed and i know last night when you and i jim were having the conversation about how your art just totally changed from, I don't want to say bland at all, I'm not saying that, but just simple, like utilitarian type work, to this amazing thing where you're stretching the pottery and doing, you know, and incising of all kinds. And you're doing Raku, and you're doing slipware, which means, you know, the different types of glaze, and then the flame glaze.

1:13:41 Fuming.

1:13:42 So you just totally changed your art.

1:13:44 Yeah, totally.

1:13:45 Just like day and night. And you did medical. Let's talk about, and Jack went into numbers, but I also saw something that he did with his very grid-like.

1:13:54 Oh, yeah. That's the way his artwork went.

1:13:58 And what was it like before?

1:14:00 Representational, like you see on the wall.

1:14:03 Abstract, you know, abstract impressionist landscapes, that sort of thing.

1:14:08 And very, very graphic. Classic graphic silkscreen designs.

1:14:15 He has a jack that has two pieces of work in the Smithsonian Institute's permanent collection on endangered animals. Oh, really?

1:14:25 Yeah, California garter snake.

1:14:27 And the devil's hole pupfish.

1:14:29 Oh, how about that?

1:14:30 And they're very beautiful images.

1:14:36 His California pupfish got him the... Best New Print Artist in America in Print Magazine Award. The Snake Poster got the 19... Well, it went around the world. It's in the permanent collection in National Archives in Washington, D.C.

1:14:56 And he got the.

1:14:58 1977 Commercial Artist Graphics Award in Boston.

1:15:04 Gold medal for that.

1:15:05 Amazing.

1:15:06 Yeah, his artwork's been around the world.

1:15:09 Wow.

1:15:09 And it turned into this weird kind of geometry.

1:15:13 I mean, he was building these huge isodecahedrons.

1:15:24 Oh, my goodness.

1:15:24 Which is a 20-faced polyhedron out of straws, hanging them from his ceiling in his studio.

1:15:31 All over the place.

1:15:32 And then he was taking these sheets of paper and bending them and then.

1:15:38 doing these.

1:15:38 Kind of weird line graphics on them. I used to go in and ask him and say, what the heck is going on here? And he'd go, I don't know. All I know is I've got to do this.

1:15:47 It's kind of like Richard Dreyfuss building the potatoes. Yeah, it's exactly like Richard Dreyfuss.

1:15:53 Good example.

1:15:54 It's exactly like Richard Dreyfuss.

1:15:57 In fact, I mean, this was like right after, I mean, immediately coming back from the Allagash in 1976.

1:16:02 Mm-hmm. So, um, which was before Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

1:16:08 Yeah. And before Star Wars.

1:16:09 And before Star Wars. And then in 1987, um, a.

1:16:15 Friend of ours who was a student and then later, um, an employee at, um, uh, MIT, brilliant programmer and physicist, um, He came to the house with this book written by David Hatcher Childress called Anti-Gravity in the World Grid.

1:16:35 Mm-hmm. Which at that time was one of the early books on the energy grid that.

1:16:42 Are … For the world grid.

1:16:44 For the world, for planet Earth, which happens to be a Naikazo do Decahedron.

1:16:49 Mm-hmm. Is that right? It is, yes. And he said, geez, you know, Jack, I think I know what kind of math you've got going on in your artwork. And he showed him this book, and sure enough, it looked pretty close to me.

1:17:06 And he said, yeah, I think this might be what's going on, what's been going on in your head all these years, Jack.

1:17:12 So we were really surprised by that. Yeah.

1:17:16 And now there's so much out there on the world grid. I mean, it's like, you know, just book after book after book. It's all tied in with the ley lines and energy grids. And one of the things that I became obsessed with, well, my artwork changed from production pottery to this really processural themed kind of way of working.

1:17:41 One of the other things that I became obsessed with was ancient architecture, uh, sites like, Teotihuacan, Mexico.

1:17:50 And, Angkor Wat, other places, Tiwanaku.

1:17:53 Pumapunku, um, Angkor Wat, you know, I believed, and I don't know where the idea came from all of a sudden, but it was just there, like, immediately after the Allagash, that those sites were a form of macro chip technology.

1:18:14 Hmm? that they were.

1:18:15 Some kind of a network of machines that had something to do with the world. I didn't know what it was at that time. I didn't know anything about the world grid back then. I didn't know anything about harmonic energies in the pyramids.

1:18:37 Or any of that stuff.

1:18:38 I just had this thing that was like, when you looked at the the blueprints of the way these the way these centers were constructed they look just like a motherboard and wow and you know in fact i think in peter tompkins one of peter tompkins book secrets of the great pyramids i forget what year that was published in but uh in his in that book and people can look it up if they're interested He's got a section in there that there was, I think, the brother of one of the Mexican presidents, the El Presidente somebody.

1:19:19 His brother was put in charge of the Antiquities Department, which was really just gold diggers. And he was excavating Teotihuacan, the Sun Pyramid, at Teotihuacan. And between the topmost layer, or step part, and the one below.

1:19:40 It, on subfloor, they found a foot-thick sheet of mica across the whole area.

1:19:49 Wow.

1:19:50 And this form of mica wasn't local. It was imported from over a thousand miles away in South America. Now, why would they do that?

1:20:00 That's crazy.

1:20:01 And in fact, over the years since, they found the same kind of, Sheets of mica in many of those pyramids. Really? In Teotihuacan. Wow. Yes. So then the question is, is like, why? Yeah.

1:20:16 You know, what does mica do? Well, mica is used in the electronics industry as an insulator.

1:20:20 Mm-hmm.

1:20:21 Mm-hmm.

1:20:22 And so, like, if you're making a capacitor, you got an insulator between two opposite.

1:20:31 Charges.

1:20:32 Wow. And in fact, in 2003... there was a book written i forgot what the author's name was something chun or cho where he researched he researched this stuff and um he his conclusion was that these pyramids all over the world were had um electronic properties to.

1:20:53 Them wow amazing so just have to get back no uh I don't mean to intrude into this.

1:21:02 There was also another study and they found mercury layer underneath the silica.

1:21:08 So you have an insulator and a conductor. So that helps with the conducting charge.

1:21:14 And another thing, a book that was just published last year, 2024 or 2025, it was called something Seed of Knowledge, Places of Power, Seed of Knowledge, something like that. where these researchers have recently discovered that you can take, they took seeds of different plants and they put them on these sites, on these pyramids for like 48 hours.

1:21:41 Oh, okay.

1:21:43 And then they would take them away and plant them. They'd plant those seeds in a plot and then they'd have a control plot with the same kinds of seeds and the ones that were exposed to the pyramids grew, had like five times the yield. And three to five times the resistance to disease.

1:22:04 Amazing. Well, totally amazing.

1:22:06 So the last thing that I want to ask you here is, if you individually, I'm going to ask this question of, if you could go back in time and have this never happen, would you want to do that?

1:22:19 Or has it been more of a positive than a negative or the other way around?

1:22:24 Jim?

1:22:24 I think over the years I'd have to say it was positive because they really didn't hurt us. I mean, as terrified as I was, I'm still here and I'm still relatively healthy.

1:22:39 Which is a miracle after the accident.

1:22:41 Which is a miracle after the accident.

1:22:42 I mean, every day after that accident is icing on the cake for me, in my opinion.

1:22:47 But anyway, if.

1:22:51 That had never happened, we would not have met an awful lot of incredible human beings in all walks of life. And especially in the UFO research field. People looking for answers with open minds and high intelligence and tolerance for bizarre events, willing to listen to people. And it's the people that have really impressed me. You know, all these amazing people in all these different kinds of fields that are just so incredible to have met over the years.

1:23:35 That I wouldn't give up for anything.

1:23:37 Very nice. And how about you?

1:23:39 Oh, I would agree with Jim that, you know, as unsettling as the actual event was, we were released. So I'm a fisherman, so I release the fish so I can identify with catch and release. Yeah. However, uh, it did change my whole life. I mean, uh, it set me on a course of direction where I totally changed my profession, uh, into something I was unaware of, uh, And I still got to teach art for about five years after I retired. I did teach art to kids.

1:24:27 Nice.

1:24:27 But Jim's brother, Jack, took the obsession with mathematics one step further than his artwork. He ended up working in the aerospace industry in Vermont. He was one of only two people, Jack and another guy. We're the only two people in the state of Vermont trained and qualified to put special optical coatings on lenses and filters used in the military and by NASA. Jack's work was, some of his work was in the Hubble Space Telescope repair package that they put in. Yeah, yeah. The two Mars rovers...

1:25:18 And orbiters, he did the optics in those as well. Not all of them, but a lot of the components that were in them. And, I mean, you know, this is something that when we first met over a half century ago, I mean, I was going to be drawing pictures with kids and so on and so forth. Jim was going to be, you know, making cups and saucers.

1:25:46 And Jack was going to be doing posters and paintings. And within a span of, you know, one evening, all that changed. And we were, you're always unaware until you get to the other side of the trip, how you ended up. And we All the things, as Jim was saying, that we've experienced. All the most incredible people. I mean, Jim and I met Betty Hill. Yeah. And, you know, talked with her. She looked at other people around and was saying, oh, you guys, I don't believe any of you, but I believe you.

1:26:38 She was a character.

1:26:41 Oh, yeah, she was a character.

1:26:42 Everyone said that.

1:26:43 And we had dinner. With Gordon Cooper, we spent like, that's one convention. Gordon Cooper, one of the Mercury 7 astronauts. I mean, this was one of the guys that got us where we are walking on the moon.

1:27:01 I thought the world of Gordon Cooper.

1:27:03 He shared with us his UFO experiences. And I mean, they were like, holy mackerel, my God.

1:27:11 Right, right. And the government confiscated the film.

1:27:14 Oh, yeah.

1:27:16 They were out there with cameras.

1:27:18 It just happened.

1:27:19 That's right, yeah.

1:27:21 And it landed right on the airbase itself. I remember the legs came up and the thing... Shot straight up. Crazy little gentleman. Thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. I'm so glad you agreed to meet up and do this one more time.

1:27:34 It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

1:27:35 Thank you for having us.

1:27:36 Thank you.

1:27:37 And when you said something about the people we meet, I totally agree. And you're some of them. You're part of these people.

1:27:44 Well, we couldn't, we wouldn't be where we are in terms of how we've gotten ourselves through this without people like you.

1:27:53 Yeah.

1:27:54 And quite a few other people.

1:27:55 Yeah.

1:27:57 Well, thank you.

1:27:58 The honor is with you people, not with us. We're just two lugs, you know.

1:28:04 Yeah. All right. Well, thank you.

1:28:18 Thank you.