Gimmick w/ Jesse La Flair

Of the Law & Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

These are our stories. Dun-dun!

Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Lisa Traeger.

And I'm Cara Clank.

And every week on this podcast, it's SVU episode recaps, true crime deep dives, chats with fascinating actors and other SVU adjacent people.

And up top, it's just, we don't know. We don't know where it goes.

Well, the much anticipated highlighter report.

The highlighter report, yes.

Lisa, last week, last week, Lisa, like, mentions the most beautiful, gorgeous highlighter of her entire life and then doesn't drop the name and everybody has been clamoring.

Because I didn't have it with me. Everyone's been like, what's the.

Name of the highlighter? I'm a marketing genius.

You're back. Leave them wanting more.

I actually went back and bought five more today because I want them in all the purses and on every desk, you know, kind of vibe. And the other highlighters are now also in stock. So much more expensive than these. This is only like $ 2. 50. So that's pretty cool.

Per highlighter.

So what's the brand called? So it's called Zebra.

Okay, so a listener already wrote and said, I'm almost positive she's talking about Zebra.

Yeah. That's a graphic, that's an art director, if I've.

Ever heard it.

So it's the Zebra Mild Liner Double Ended Double Point. So one is bold and one is fine. But it's mild ink. And that's what I'm liking about it. It's mild. It's not neon. It's like, it just is gorgeous and light. And I like that. Because sometimes I think the highlighters are too overpowering of the words.

Yes. Too much. Too much. We need to calm down. Understated.

Understated highlighter.

And it's cute as fuck. Like, now that you're looking at it. Like, don't you feel like it's cute as fuck?

Cute.

Very cute. I don't know.

I love it. I love it so much. So.

Yeah, I'm almost done with Switzy. You know, probably going to finish that today. The Emma Klein book is part of my book report. So I'm nearing the end.

I'm curious.

People are, this isn't a new problem. I felt about this way with Nathan Fielder's movie. I was just about to bring that up. Someone just finished Switzy and like wrote something in their stories. And it's like, obviously we shall be communicating what we're doing. But if something is new, like, can you give us a second?

Yeah, I guess it's just we're.

All on the same, we're all wondering what's new because you and I were criticized at one point for talking about a movie with spoilers that had been out for a month and we thought that was enough.

But what movie was that? That was years ago.

Sure.

That was years ago. What movie was it? Do you remember? I don't remember. I don't remember. But it was like, oh, maybe it was Weapon?

No.

What was it?

I don't know.

It was something where it was like, No, I'm not saying I couldn't be part of the problem.

But no, I agree because I've been telling everybody about You Can See Everything, the Nathan Fielder movie. Do not read an article. Avoid all social media posts about it.

Go with nothing in your brain about it.

Because that was... I saw it right after we recorded last week.

So.

This is me weighing in on it with you.

And I was like, how are we going to talk about this on the podcast without spoiling? Because I really don't want.

Without doing the thing that I just said I'm pissed that people are doing.

Yes, because I don't want to do that. I just will say I loved it. I just will say I really enjoyed it. He's just doing something like no one else is doing. It's a total, like, totally different, like, thing. It's like nothing. I thought I was watching a narrative movie and it's like a documentary.

It's crazy.

I actually have, like, two friends that are contrarians. And both of them, like, started talking. And I went, name one thing that's like it. And they go, well, that's not the point. I go, well, no, maybe you should shut up. Like, if you're seeing something that you've never seen before, like, there is just something to that on top of, like, whatever you have to say. I actually got up from one of them and left when I'm going home. So that was, like, pretty fun for me. I.

want everybody to go see it.

I thought it was so, like, groundbreaking and cool, and I hope it gets nominated for Best Picture. I thought it was really neat.

I know.

I think it'll get nominated.

And I wonder if the Obsession Girl's gonna get the nominations, because she's out there campaigning. Oh, really? Honey's campaigning. They want it. They want it bad. I can't find the meme. And the Hudson Williams at the Met seems to be, like at the Met Gala after party, seems to be one of the more popular Halloween costumes.

Oh, really?

Which is kind of thrilling. And the Peloton.

Yeah, I think people, I think it's like one of the hits of the year.

Wait, can I say two things? First of all, Stephanie March back on SVU. Oh, yeah. I can't wait.

They're really, they're putting out all the stops.

And you already said this, and I didn't doubt you, but I watched, like, maybe five or six season 27 episodes since I talked to you last.

They're so fucking good.

Like, season 27, I was like, this is, like, reminding me of old SVU.

Like, it was so good.

And I'm really happy... that it is like, I loved, they did like a, they did a Sarah, the Sarah Lawrence one, the one with the little boy who is, um, you know, in the cage. Yeah. The psychedelic, love the cage.

Yeah.

Love the little boy in a cage.

Love that.

Um, But like, I just was like, oh my gosh, I had, I watched like three in a row last night. I don't normally like binge my SVU that much anymore because I'm usually doing it for work and I'm watching like the one or two I got to watch. I was just sitting there pleasure watching for hours. Loved it.

I'm like so psyched for what's coming next.

Yeah, I'm watching week by week at this point. So I know now I got to get caught up to 28. Now I got to get caught up to 28, which I think I'll do like this weekend.

Exciting.

I was really.

And I'm, like, good for Michelle Vasikis or whatever, like, if I'm saying her name correctly.

Like, I just... We needed a woman to.

Also, even, like, I like the way that the crew is, like, gelling. I like the way Curry is... Like, that boxing match. There's, like, a boxing match where they're all watching her... fight at NYPD during versus FDNY boxing match. And they're all, they're watching her and like, they're letting Bruno have a bunch of really funny lines. The new guy I think is having some really good stuff. Like we haven't, I haven't like, I don't know. I think most of the new people that have been on in the last few years, everyone's been like, give him some time, give him some time.

This guy feels like he's kind.

Of in the gang already.

And everybody's really, they have good like casual delivery.

I don't know if I'm, like, saying that the right way. Chemistry. They're having chemistry.

Yeah, like, the chemistry is really good. And when they're talking, they're not just, like... I don't feel like I'm watching them read lines. Like, I feel like they're really... I'm loving it.

Loving it.

Good cast, chemistry. You guys should check out Law & Order SVU. What a great show. Give it a watch. Start with season 27, honestly.

You don't need any backstory. I do have a.

A listener so I went to a Michelin star Korean barbecue restaurant and it was some of the best pieces of meat I've ever had in my fucking life it was so good but I went with you know some agents my manager a nice team dinner but I felt so cool because a TMU Tommy works there and brought over some wine for the table shout out yeah so thanks for that felt really cool At the Michelin star.

And I got to get back in there. That meat was so fucking good. It was so good. That's amazing.

I can't even believe it. Yeah.

Michelin star. So you've been doing more protein. You're not going back into meat.

I'm not on the meat yet, but I am watching my protein and I think it's working.

I think it's helping. I really am.

And I appreciate everybody's continuing to send me, you know, protein tips. Because I think I'm getting a lot more now already and I can like, I feel like I can already tell the difference in my hair a little bit, but that's kind of, that's probably crazy.

It's been like two weeks, but I, yeah, I'm going to wait.

Even though like you just saying that made me think, wow, I'd really love to try like the best piece of meat ever at a Michelin star restaurant.

I know.

Yeah.

That was bitchy of me, but it was such good meat. And like, it's four courses of me and it just kept getting better. And I was like, I can't even believe this. But we had some, you know, some raw seafood stuff. I had a lychee martini and a Manhattan. If you're going to put the Manhattan on the menu, I'm going to have it.

You know what? They did it right. Cherries.

Yesterday I went to Blueprint in between like shows and stuff. Have you, do you ever go there by Union Hall, Blueprint?

No.

Okay. So like, I love their happy— I love it there.

Maybe.

I don't think so, though.

It's like wood bar, elevated, really good cocktails, but their menu is psychotic. So, like, I had a duck breast club. They have chicken liver mousse. They have a rabbit pot pie. They have, like, pork butt sliders. They have sardines. They do have shishitos, but you can see, you can hear that this is a psychotic menu.

Yeah.

They do have like a cheese bread that's more on the normal side, but they had, why am I, I can't believe I just did a model all about them, but like such a good Manhattan, but I've had two Manhattans.

Okay. Okay.

My theory is if I'm drinking vodka and tequila, things are party vibes. Once it's brown liquor, sadness has come to play. Like I really, I've like the last two weeks I've been, or it's a weather thing. You know, it is like getting brisk, but I have been dabbling. But I fucking hate when people put orange in a Manhattan.

That's for an old fashioned, get it out of my Manhattan.

Oh yeah, yeah. That's incorrect, right? It really disgusts me.

What's the main alcohol in a Manhattan?

Whiskey? Yeah, it's bourbon.

I like a Manhattan, a Maker's, but like if they don't have it, I'll do what they, like, I don't care.

Then they'll start giving me other options. I'm like, I don't know anything outside of this. You could like. But you're selling, you're saying Manhattan is.

Dark cherry.

I mean, you could have a cheap cherry too, but it should be a dark cherry.

But when you were saying sadness, are you talking about like, it's gets you, makes you sad? Yeah.

No, I think the motivation... I feel like when it's... I've not been drinking brown liquor because it does make me.

Black out fast and have heartburn.

Yeah.

Fair enough. The Manhattans are just insane.

I feel like when it's tequila vodka, I'm like, oh, shots for everyone.

Let's go buy... Oh, fun. Let's go dancing.

And then I think with like when it's brown liquor, I'm like, I'm going to read alone in this corner or I'm going to start a fight about the government.

Like, I just don't find... Like, I don't know.

Yeah. And then, like, when you multiply the Manhattans by a few, it probably just gets to a deeper and deeper situation.

But I had the orange.

But the weather is so nice right now. Like, I really want to quit drinking for a while. I think I'm going to try no drinks November. But, like, I don't think it's going to work. I don't see an end in sight.

I really don't.

I think that these kind of things where you have to, like, give something up for, like, the month or whatever— just feel so restrictive and hard and, like, ultimately, what's the point when you just go back? Like, the second December hits, you're gonna, like, pound again. Like, why don't you make some kind of goal of, like, I don't drink Monday to Wednesday and then I only.

Or Monday to Thursday. Well, that seems crazier to me. Crazy? Like, remove two days from the calendar. I'm not gonna do either. But it has to be... It has to be a.

a circulating two days because, like, because I'm also, I'm going to a Knicks game in November.

I'm not going to have a beer.

Yeah.

Like, that seems crazy to me.

And then it's like, I'm doing Blackout Wednesday, Chicago, get tickets with my friend Tommy Mac at Zany's.

So I'm going to black out. The show's called Blackout Wednesday. Yeah, you're contractually obligated. I mean, you have to give the people what they want. Yeah, I'm going.

To be with family.

Like, I.

I don't know. I just cannot keep going like this.

I don't think.

But I have been.

I'm not, like, obviously quite as heavy, like, on the Manhattans and stuff. But, like, you know, I'm drinking wine, like, most nights out of the week. And then I'm like, I got to cut back. So like this week, yesterday, and the day before, I didn't drink any wine. But you can bet your ass I was thinking about it a lot. I was like, I was like making dinner and was like, I just want to have a little bit while I make dinner. What's the problem? But like I didn't. And then, you know, I'll have some tonight at my show. We're party animals. Yeah, I just don't.

I think the full like quit of it is. It's more power to people that want to like reset their year and do it in January or whatever, especially like November when holidays are coming up.

Lisa, that seems like so unrealistic. I know, but I just feel like I. I mean, I had two Manhattans by myself in my neighborhood.

$ 38.

I know.

That's the other thing. And that's like, okay. And then you know I'm tipping well. It's my neighborhood.

Yeah.

I contribute to the community. But I didn't want to read indoors. It's been so nice. Like you're telling me it's like in the 60s. Like, yeah, I'm going to have, I'm going to get blacked out, I guess, alone in my neighborhood.

I don't know.

Yeah.

But, okay, obviously I've complained about my cleaning woman on here before. Am I out of touch?

I don't care. I have multiple shoes missing. I heard she listens. I'd be careful. I heard she listens.

Well, then she should drop off the shoes. I go, babe, you probably just threw them out on accident. Like, please let me know.

She won't. I don't know.

It's like, my boots are gone. My sneakers are gone.

Shoes are gone?

So, like, We've had talks where I'm like, please stop hiding, consolidating multiple things in boxes. Like, stop it. I would rather have a pile in the corner, fold something. Like, you don't need to stuff things places. Like, I'm fine to look at it. Like, I just don't want things missing. But whatever.

So she sent photos.

So I get home from gigs and visiting my parents.

And.

I'm getting ready to leave the house. I can't find my boots. Like, I can't find them anywhere. And I'm looking for the boots everywhere. And then I go, where are the boots? And she's like, I didn't see boots. I go, there were definitely... What are you talking about?

You didn't see my boots. And then.

You know, so I opened every duffel bag, every suitcase, under the bed, every box, every bin, everywhere. She called me. We were searching. I was sending her photos. I'm like, I have a tiny apartment. Where are my boots? Because I remember packing going, I don't need boots because I'm going to California. And then I usually don't even leave my parents' house. I'm like, so I don't need knee-high boots.

I just need sneakers and Skokie. So I'm like, I remember looking at them. Like, you cannot tell me that the boots were not there. And then I was like, do you think someone else came and took the boots?

Like, did you throw away the boot? Maybe they're here. Nothing. So then I also was like, fuck, I thought I had more sneakers. I'm like, where are my Adidas?

So then I stopped at the Adidas store because I need Adidas.

I need Adidas in the home. And so.

And I'm looking at a pair and I go, wait, I have those. And I go, wait, I don't have them. So I messaged her. I go, so I guess my Adidas sneakers too, the black and white ones. And it's just like, they're not here. They're not in my apartment.

They're not like tucked somewhere that she put them?

No, because she usually like will send photos.

Like she'll tell me where stuff, like she's saying that they didn't exist, but it's like, no, I had these items.

So then I'm like, Because I don't think she would take them. I really don't. So I'm just like.

Well, yeah, I mean, the resale value on, like, used Adidas black.

And whites or not, like, you know. That's what I mean.

I don't think that that's what happened. But I was like, I think you consolidated and threw it away. I go, I think you threw it away. And then she's like, let me come over and help you look for it. I'm like, we're going to do theater. Like, there's two rooms, babe. Like, there's two rooms.

We're going to do theater.

I don't know what you're telling me. And why would they be nestled? Like they're on the main shoe rack. So then I go, you know, it's weird because they belong on the shoe rack. And I go, but for some reason you took glitter shoes that I've never worn with paper still in them that are under my bed and put them on the rack. That's strange. And she goes, well, I vacuum under the bed, full dust. I will put the photos on the Instagram. Like there's no way there was vacuuming under the bed. Like, I'm just like, what are you doing? Maybe you need to get another lady.

Well, obviously.

Yeah.

Our relationship is done. I already have a new name. I mean, cleaning person. It will be a woman.

Not man. I have another name already, and I will contact them. But, like, what's up, babe?

Yeah, my thing is always, like, please just put everything back where you found it. Like, I don't like rearranging. It's there because that's where I like it. So just, like, leave it. That's what I told them when they first started this new team that I have. And they're really, nine times out of 10, they're very good about it.

But then sometimes I'm like, I know you want my wedding photo to be here. I don't want it there. Like, I know that you keep moving it there. I'm not changing my mind.

I don't know.

But I need new boots. I need sneakers.

They're gone.

Oh, my God.

A shoe heist.

Oh, my God.

And then I got blacked out, lost my black leather jacket that I just got relined. Then my toilet was clogged, then still broken. I got a new toilet installed yesterday. And so these are all minor hiccups.

Yes.

So it ended up being great. I do love this building. But, like, just to get your period.

To lose boots in.

The fall and a leather jacket and not have a working toilet for.

Days and then have.

To redo the flapper with your hand every time is like, it was just a tough couple days, but obviously not huge problems.

But I bled through my dress at Tiffany's.

I'm really, really glad you made it through, though.

And I mean, to have your full-blown period and a toilet that does not flush is crazy.

For multiple days. Yeah, that's awful.

That's the worst-case scenario. Yeah.

And I bled through my dress at Tiffany's. So then I... So that... I think I bled on the chair, too. I was too embarrassed to look back. I just had to keep moving.

Oh, my God.

Life as a woman.

Life as a woman, just bleeding with my missing boots. Like, I don't know. I, you know, they're a big part of the outfits for the fall.

Yeah, the boots.

You got to get new boots.

Got to get new boots. I just wonder, I just, the mysteries of the world. But I mean, you know what would be the best is if this was a prank with someone else that has the code to my lockbox. Like, that would be awesome. They really got me. They really got me. That's, like, the fun trick.

Trick or treat. If that's, like, a trick, I'd be awesome.

They've just been coming in and, like, taking sort of, like, not valuable items.

Like, I can't speak for the.

Boots, but, like, you know, a pair of sneakers you probably had.

For a little bit. But also, it's like, I think she knows that I'm mentally unwell that I wouldn't be able to realize at first because I was like, oh, yeah, I did have black and white Sambas.

Like, what the fuck?

Well, now she's going to know that You have the mental unwellness that means you are going to remember and you're never going to let it go.

Yeah, and I just don't think she would take... I just don't know. I really don't know.

Maybe it's a spirit.

Didn't you do like a... I'm just devil's advocating here or not devil's advocate even, just like looking for options. You did have like someone come over and do a big cleanup kind of recently, clean out sort of recently. There's no way that friend maybe.

No.

Took something and... Put it somewhere?

No, I don't think my best friend would come in here and ruffle through my items and not tell me as I'm flipping out.

Yeah, no, I don't think that that would happen.

I mean, just throwing it out there. Not even ruffle through, throw them away. Like, put them somewhere.

That's all.

No, what I keep saying is there's two rooms in this apartment.

Yeah, you've taken everything apart. So wherever you want to put the boots... It's two rooms.

And so it's like, if it's not in the laundry bag and it's not in the suitcases and it's not under the bed, then I guess it's in the kitchen cabinets. Like there's nowhere to put stuff. The oven, Carrie Bradshaw style.

I've already looked in the oven.

That's where I kept my extra ashtrays and my vases.

That's a good idea.

Yes. Everything is, like, I have under the couch. Like, there's just, like, did you place it beneath the trolls? Like, there's not many places to do stuff.

This is a crazy mystery. We'll never know. I think she accidentally threw them away.

Yeah.

I really do.

I think, like, she was just putting stuff, thought it was all trash, and then got rid of it. I really, that is where my heart is at. Because I just don't see her being like, I'm going to take these Sambas.

That's what I mean.

I just don't see it. I just don't see it. Yeah, the Sambas. But I'd like to know. Whatever. You got new Sambas, though? No, not yet. No. Oh, you went to the Adidas store. I thought maybe you grabbed some.

You know, I was in such a rage. It was like the Kill Bill. It was like, like that, that noise and kill. That's how I felt. I was like, I need to get out of here. Like, I cannot handle my reality being like fucked with in this way.

Oh my God.

I hope it's not somebody trying to make you crazy with gaslighting.

Oh, something's up. Something's up.

So the person that I saw the Nathan Fielder movie with, Texted me going about heated rivalry. The episodes are going to be played in the movie theaters. I don't know if in the Regals. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

So that person texted going, oh, look, your boys. Are we going to go to the movies? Are we going to go to this? And I wrote, I'm going to this. And capitals. So then later we're socially hanging and it's like another one of our mutuals. And this person's like, can you believe Lisa said this? And I said, I think it's psychotic you think I would let you come.

It's a heated rivalry in the theaters with me. And they were like gobsmacked. They're like, what do you mean? I go, you haven't even watched it once on TV. Why would I watch my favorite thing with you so you could tell me all the things you don't like about it? And they were not ready and they did walk away from me. But I was just like, are you out of your fucking mind?

Like, I really, I want to understand people.

Yeah.

I'm going with a super fan that's supportive. Thank you very much. Why would I do this with you?

Am I out of line?

Am I crazy? Am I just anti-cleaning lady and friendship?

No, I think you're just like, with specifically this thing, you're not going to go to like, I don't know, you're not going to go to something with, like, a casual fan. Like, this is, like, your thing, you know?

That hasn't even taken the time to see it once on TV. Wait, they haven't watched it at all?

No.

Then why would they want to go to the movie theater and watch the second season? That's actually insane. No, they're just replaying the first season. Oh, they're replaying the first season of the movie theater. So they've never seen it. And they're like, oh, I was waiting for it to go to the big screen.

No, and they started arguments with me when it came out because they're like, why are you so obsessed with it?

Like, I hate her.

Like, I'm just, like, so, I'm, like, gobsmacked. I'm going to see episodes five and six. So it's organized one, two, three, four, five, six. And I wasn't going to go because sometimes to be confronted with other people as mentally ill as you is kind of hard, you know? But someone bought tickets for me and was.

Like, we're going, so.

Get in, bitch.

We're going to watch our favorite show in the movie theater. And now I'm going to wear my Ilya Rozanov Hot Topic sweatshirt.

Oh. For people that will appreciate it. I have somewhere to wear it.

Yeah.

Okay, let's get started, guys. The regular announcements are go to That's Messed Up Live to get tickets to our DC show in January, January 24th. Our Brooklyn show, January 26th. You can also shop our merch from that link. And starting in today's election day, so you better be going out to vote if you haven't voted.

Please get your vote in. And then November 19th.

Through 30th is going to be this big, exactly right end of the year, goodbye 2026 merch sale with the code goodbye 2026 for 30% off. So you can go there at our That's Messed Up live site has that. You can also click on Lisa's link to see all her tour dates. Also, if anyone is in the Los Angeles area this weekend, I'm going to be moderating a In conversation with the author of A Dangerous Beauty, which is a book about a woman who had an affair with JFK and was like tied to the Chicago mob and all this kind of stuff. So that's going to be at Sons and Daughters bookstore in West Hollywood on Melrose on Sunday the 8th at 5.

So if you want to come to that.

And I hope you guys like the highlighter that I like. I can't believe I'm such an influencer.

I'm thrilled for me. Stationary influencer.

All right. Let's get going with today's episode.

All right, we are doing today our very first episode of season 27, last year's season. We're doing episode 18. It's called Gimmick. And yeah, this one just came out April of like this year. So it's our most recent one. And it's exciting. And the season was just so good. And I'm just like so happy for a one syllable baby.

I'm getting through. I'm getting through.

Last night, I watched Career Psychopath, the Harry Messner return.

I mean.

Ugh, that one was crazy. It was.

It was a good one. I'm liking the episodes. Like, I'm really loving.

I love that the show can still have, like, kind of a resurgence in the way that they're doing it, like, that I'm liking after 28 years. But, okay, so we're at, like, sort of a shitty hotel, and a maid is complaining to another one, like, this customer won't check out of their room, I gotta go, or whatever, and... we hear a sports announcer's voice blaring. So the TV's on and it's working. And she knocks, lets herself in. And we know a maid has never once found anything good in an episode of SVU. So like, you know, there's no exception here. As soon as she walks in, the room looks ransacked. She opens the bathroom door and there is a man in the bathtub. His ankles are zip-tied together and And they're up on the edge of the tub,

but the rest of the body is submerged in water. And the maid yells to her friends, call 911. And then as the camera like zooms in on this guy, he emerges from the water gasping, scaring the shit out of the maid and frankly me. And I don't know what's going on. Like if this guy was just- It's very.

The Movie 7.

Yes. Yes.

Right. Absolutely.

So- We cut to a little later and Rollins and new guy Jake Griffin are on the scene and he knows the uniform on the scene and addresses her as Katie. And she tells them, yeah, the EMTs resuscitated the victim and rushed him to Mount Sinai. That's where I was born. And she says, but if I were you guys, I wouldn't hold my breath. And then she realizes that was a bonehead comment. She apologizes and Griffin says, bound and dumped in a tub. You ever seen anything like this?

And she says, no, it's a first, but I'm certain they've seen something like this. Like, that's not that crazy. And then Benson rolls in and says, yeah, the guy checked in as John Smith. He paid cash. So maybe this guy was a pro or a John. Like, there's booze there.

There's oil. There's condoms. There's cocaine. But no wallet, no phone, right?

And Griffin pulls out a duffel bag from somewhere that has zip ties, a box cutter, and a snub-nosed revolver in it. So somebody brought a kill bag to this party and that suggests that it wasn't a crime of passion.

So why leave the bag behind?

And Griffin's like, well, whoever's bag this is There's something seriously wrong with them. And he's holding up this bondage hood that he found in, like, I wanted to call it a gimp mask from Pulp Fiction, but it is called technically a bondage hood. And Griffin, I'm like, it's 2026. I don't think you should be kink shaming. Like, just because someone likes to fuck around with a bondage hood doesn't mean that something is seriously wrong with them.

But we go to the credits from there.

So now, Rollins has the idea- you know yeah he's a dork he's a dork and he has like a little new york accent it's just so funny to me that they all have to have like new york him and carisi they're all like but none of the women really have it um so now except you know who did muncie She really tried to have a New York accent.

She really tried that, you know?

So now Rollins has the idea of the victim.

His name is Ian Larkin, age 37. His prints are lighting up the system, okay? Prostitution, drug possession. He's been in and out since he was 18 of trouble, okay? And with the law, with the justice system. So his last known address is a building that's been demolished on the Lower East Side, but they found a family address in South Oregon, New Jersey. Griffin's like, oh, should I swing by Mount Sinai to check on him?

And then Benson gets a call.

Dun, dun.

No need to do that. Ian just died.

He never regained her consciousness. He never regained consciousness. So, she wants to hang... I was confused as to why this man... Why they were called in the first place. Like, usually... Maybe just because of, like, the mask and the condoms. Like, there usually has to be, like, a sexual element or...

it would go to homicide. So I'm not the only person wondering that. Obviously, they're addressing it in the script because Benson's like, I want to hang on to this case. Like, I'm going to call homicide. They're backed up anyway. We're going to keep this one. So she tells Griffin to check in with the medical examiner in the morning. So now he's in the, you know, what we would have called Melinda's house, but now it's called Emmy Horowitz's house.

And she is.

Doesn't ring the same bell. No, no.

But she is played by Renata Friedman.

She's in four episodes this season, and it looks like she's back in season 28. So maybe she's like the new Melinda. She's in this episode a lot because she testifies later. And she's telling Griffin that Ian wasn't on coke or meth, just benzos. And he was knocked out the old-fashioned way, blunt force trauma, bonked on the back of the head by a hotel lamp. And then he was restrained with zip ties, but there's like deep cuts on the zip ties, which means that he was like resisting.

And then he was strangled underwater.

So the Emmy thinks... The Emmy is like, so what must have happened is that he suffered from a hypoxic blackout, stopped struggling, and then sank.

The killer thought he was dead.

And then after they left, he regained consciousness. I was like, okay, that's kind of interesting. I've never heard of that really happening before. But then.

he was stuck in the bathtub, she said, for hours.

So I don't understand how this man had any life in him if he was underwater for hours. Like, I don't know how he came to when the maid came in there.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like, I know in Seven, in Seven, it's a guy.

That we think is basically dead because he's been lying motionless for a year. But.

Because he was underwater because there's like one shipwreck that I know of where like someone got to like, they found the one air pocket.

Yeah. But there wasn't an air pocket there.

Right.

Like if he was underwater for four hours.

I don't get how he went or whatever and had that like little burst, whatever.

But I guess I'll never know.

So no luck with the DNA because it's like a nasty hotel room. It's like, you know, there's a shit ton of hair and fluids.

But even if it was not a nasty one, like how well is the Four Seasons cleaning?

Like I just, I don't buy it.

Yeah.

There's just a lot.

It's like a needle in a haystack trying to find the DNA is what they're saying. Yeah.

But I agree.

At Ian's dad's house, his dad is in a chair with a blanket on his lap, which is, you know, the universal sign for not doing well, okay? And he's talking about how smart and capable Ian was. He could have done anything. And he's like, we were close, I suppose, but there are things I could have done better. But then the dad, Louis, is like, well, he was here this morning. Didn't you see him? And then Rollins asks the brother, Sean, how long has your dad been like this?

And he goes, two years. He went downhill after my mom died. And then he goes, another gift from Ian. And you don't understand immediately, like, why does Ian have anything to do with that? But Rollins says, yeah, families tend to bear the brunt of addiction. And he's like, my brother was a junkie who used and manipulated my parents, lost their savings, and made my mom go back to work at 67. And it put her in an early grave.

My notes are insane. I wrote, put her in an empty grave. It's early grave.

What was, I was, must've been like, I must've been very tired.

Ian started using in high school and he never looked.

Back, his brother says.

And Liv is still, bless her heart, trying to talk to this man, Louis, but he's very confused. She's like, I think he'll be home from school soon. Just wait here to see Ian or whatever. Like he doesn't understand what's going around. He obviously has dementia or Alzheimer's of some kind. Sean says it's almost a relief that Ian's dead.

Now we don't have to pay for his mistakes anymore. And he knows where Ian was living. because he conned a check out of their dad last month. So now they're at Ian's apartment on East 111, so East Harlem, or Spanish Harlem. Rollins and Griffin are checking it out. Supplements, steroids, syringes, some crystal. There's zip ties. There's a box for a box knife. There's a bowl of crushed up pills. So they're starting to think like, okay, so if Ian's the one who brought the bag to the hotel room, what was the plan, right? And then Rollins is like, well, I found out one little mystery. Maybe this is, look where he was the day he died. And it's like a ticket stub for the 2026 New York Knockout Expo.

So now, you know we're there, baby. And this is like a con for old like WWE stars, right? sort of yeah any old like.

Well it doesn't it seems more rough and tumble than the w right like it seems very like backyard was it a what was the one ring oh my god there's there was one that i used to watch with like an ex and old friends where it was like they would bleed and use wood like it was just a little more rough and tumble.

A little bit yeah like less campy than wwe And so they're at a con for like these kinds of people. Benson, Rollins, and Griffin are about to split up and see what they can find. But then Griffin gets starstruck and knows all the names of these fighters. Buffalo Joe, Hawk Hawkins. He's like, I'm a fan.

I used to watch the fights. Yeah, it was ECW. Okay.

Oh, ECW.

Okay.

I think so. Yeah, ECW.

Yeah.

I think that was... I googled. Wrestling Federation, more violent. That was more violent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. More violent WWE, yeah.

Yeah, so that's what it was.

But like, Yeah, this seems definitely not as huge because WWE wouldn't have looked so sad in terms of a con. Right. They're still selling out stadiums for the WrestleManias and stuff.

Sure.

Right, right, right.

These people look sad.

Like when people.

Die from WWE, people are so sad and it's like a whole thing.

So this seems a little bit.

This seems so backyard. Even Ring of Honor. Yeah, it just seems like smaller.

Yeah. But people are excited to meet these people, those fans.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've been to Ring of Honor, which was like at a high school gym, but it was huge. But my friend was as huge and like was wrestling in Japan and all over and it was packed, but it was like, it's very like comedy or anything that's, you know, you love it, so you do it and it could be smaller, but you are successful in the small thing, but it's not the big leagues or whatnot.

Something like that.

Right. There's like a middle class to this sort of like, sport yeah in a sense yeah so Benson's like very judgy like she's like what you like this shit but she's like okay try not to ask for too many autographs and stick to the case okay so now I love when the.

Detectives have like a side interest I really.

Yes right and someone that's not just Rollins knowing everything about sports like she normally does yeah um So now Benson, on her own, approaches the booth of Jasmine Jewell, played by, obviously, the legend, Melissa McCarthy. And this episode, like, we obviously heard about her coming on the show. She says it was six years in the making. She snuck onto the set wearing a prosthetic, like, old lady mask. Like, it's very hard, she said, to, like, get an entire set of people to lie to their boss. Like, she is, like, the main person at that fucking set, and all these people were, like, keeping her appearance quiet and everything. So now...

I wonder how they met and became friends and stuff. Yeah, good question. I guess they've known each other for a long time.

Yeah, I also, you know, from last week's episode, I can't wait for this JonBenet show that Josh Stamberg was telling us about. And it reminded me just now, I was watching, I was just on Instagram, but it was a woman going, if I die and go to heaven, these are the questions I want to ask God. And you kind of think it's going to be more like, why do children get cancer?

You know, whatever. But the first one was, who killed JonBenet?

I don't know if I said that on this podcast or on our Patreon, but I said that would be my first question to God. I said, if I could find out a fucking mystery, I'd be like, who killed JonBenet?

I don't know why I'm so obsessed.

And then she asked about like, I Googled these, the Rannoch Passage or the Rannoch Colony and then the something, like Rosanoff.

Okay, something else is on my mind.

Hold on, let me see where my Googles are. Rannoch Colony. I have to look up into that. But it's in Raleigh. First permanent English settlement.

Something happened.

So I have to read about that. That was one of her questions.

And then the Day Out Love Pass.

People died of hypothermia, something happens, tons of conspiracy theories, but it's like Soviet stuff.

The Roanoke colony thing is really, they did an American horror story called Roanoke.

Oh, whoa.

It's basically like this whole colony of settlers just disappeared, I think. And it's like, what happened to them? So people think aliens? What do people say? I don't know.

I have no idea. Obviously, Ryan Murphy had his ideas. I didn't watch that one, though. What about the... Yeah, there were nine in the dead. I don't know about this other third one that you said.

A group of.

Students set out on a trek into the Earl Mountains. Their frozen bodies were inexplicable injuries were discovered in locations that compounded the puzzle of how they died.

It's been over 60 years.

Oh, my God.

I can't even look at the photo of this person. But, yeah, Jean Benet was number one.

Yeah.

I hate to say it.

If there is a God, if I get any answers in the afterlife, it's at the top of my list. But. She's so funny. She's like sitting there in this like little bus driver wig.

I like when every, no, I hate when men do it. I love when women flirt with Benson.

Olivia Benson.

I love when the lesbians are into her.

And when comedians do it. We love when Kathy Griffin does it. You know, we're into it. The comedians of it all. She's like, she can't not be funny. Like they put her in like the perfect role. Because like, I think even though she can not be funny, like in, I'm sure in this new Patsy, where she's going to play Patsy Ramsey, like, as JonBenet's mom. Like, our guest said she's going to win an Oscar. Like, I know she can be serious. But, like, her on Law & Order, it's like, I just wouldn't buy her as just, like, a deli owner being like, haven't seen the guy. Like, I love her as this, like, AEW type of, or, like, just sort of wrestling lady that's, like, trying to sell photos for $ 40 to people. And she's just like not

really paying attention. She's there in a little bus driver wig reading a magazine. And Olivia's like, hi, I have some questions for you. I'm with the NYPD. And she's like, yeah, I never, I didn't do it, blah, blah, blah. And then the minute she looks up from her magazine, she's blown away by the gorgiosity of Olivia Benson and immediately starts like laying and flirting with her so hard, telling her her baby Browns could make her a lot of money in this business, that her legs could make her big money in this business and lives like, And then she goes, yeah, the crowds really go for Amazonians. I think it's a dominance thing. But how's your right hook?

And then Benson goes, pretty good, actually. Because you know Benson has a good right hook. She fucking boxes. Like, she can punch. And then she starts asking her, like, have you seen this guy? And much like the queens at DragCon, you want to talk to him, you got to pay. So Liv kind of roasts her being like, It doesn't really seem like there's much of a line.

And Jasmine's like, well, I mean, if you're low on funds, we can work out another arrangement. I know my way around a set of handcuffs. So she's heavy on the innuendo. And Liv's like, that's tempting, but I think today I'm going to stick with cash. Olivia must have to just like walk around with cash because I feel like a lot of times she has to pay people to talk to her. But she gives this woman the money and she goes, yeah, I seen your guy.

Like she's so hilarious.

And then she's like, he was here the opening day of the expo. I tried to sell him a half price photo of me and he turned me down. And then she goes, in what world? Like it was, it's so funny. Like She just has so much confidence, this character. And afterwards, she goes, yeah, afterwards, he went to the same place everyone did to see the headliner. And then she thanks Jasmine. Jasmine thanks her. And then she just watches her walk away, like watches her ass as she walks away.

So it's an amazing, hilarious scene. Um, and at another meet and greet area.

And it's what we talk about with, like, the earlier seasons is, like, there's this sense of humor.

Yeah.

It's obviously horrific crime. This episode is dark as fuck and very upsetting. But there is, like, this lightness, this scene that's nice. It's like, there's a bunch.

You've got to talk to a guy who's dressed like a bunch of grapes. Like, there's somebody yelling at his, like, family while he's talking to the thing, like, being in, like, a funny... Like, I don't know, these characters that would be the people that they would talk to. The Grapes is such a good pull. Yeah.

But you know what I mean?

Like, there would be funny people they would talk to. Like a lady being like, turn it down! Or yelling at her son.

And then... And if you want to see The Grapes, that's the episode Mean. Yes, if you'd like to get into the grapes. Because that's one of the crimes that I actually think about all the time that I've researched. And that was like one of our first season episodes, and I still think about that crime a lot.

Yeah, that was one of our early ones.

I think because one of the people I think has been let out on parole or something, or it's about time. But I could be making that up.

I think it's just really horrific, but I think about it a lot.

Yeah.

Also.

Yeah, like the last few years, you never really meet any characters.

And I like that this showrunner is bringing it back and kind of we're getting some funny little like side characters here.

So.

At another meet and greet area of this con, we see a female, like, agent. And this actress is named Julie Ann Emery. And she's, like, so familiar to me. I think I know her from Bosch. I think that's where I know her. I think she's, like, another one of the cops on Bosch. Don't bring up Bosch. Don't bring up Bosch.

It honestly makes me mad every time that he hasn't done the podcast yet. It's really hard to deal with.

I know.

Bosch has promised to do the podcast and isn't doing the podcast. I don't know what's happening.

Bosch should watch out if I see him at any event.

If I see Bosch... Bitch.

Ugh.

On site.

But she's familiar.

She kind of looks like she could play like, who's the unreal woman?

Sherry Appleby?

No, the other one.

Constance Zimmer.

She looks like she could like play her like sister or something and something. But she, people are lined up for autographs. Benson asks this one fan, hey, can I take a look at that?

Like, and the lady's like, sure. She's so pumped. This woman's so pumped. She just got this autograph.

And it's this guy in a bondage mask that looks exactly like the one they found at the crime scene.

It's a guy named Executioner. It's his mask.

Like, that's his wrestling character name, and he's selling it as merch. So, dunked on into a commercial break. So now, we're talking to the Executioner. He's this older guy, and he looks at a picture of Ian and goes, he doesn't really look familiar. And they're kind of like, what's up with the mask? And he's like, it's all about intimidation.

You got to scare your opponent before you even lay a finger on them. Like when you come out in that mask, they're scared. And then he's like, also the fans go freaking crazy for it. And I can sell them for 80 bucks a pop. No receipts, cash only. And he goes, they're like, oh, do you have any pictures of any of the fans you met yesterday? He's like, we do Polaroids. This man's living in like another time, okay? Sharon, the woman that I just mentioned, Constance Zimmer's fake sister.

is this guy's name is Clint O'Neill and Sharon Hunsinger is his agent. And he goes, yeah, I'll call you guys if I think of something or whatever. And like Benson and Rollins are having like a nice little combo with him.

They're joking.

They're talking about occupational hazards, whatever. Back at the precinct, Griffin is filling Benson in on the Bruiser Boys, which was a local like kind of MMA group that fed into the wrestling world. And there was an article about them from like 20 plus years ago. And Ian was mentioned in an article about, about them from when he was a kid. So that's the connection to why this guy would have been at this wrestling world thing. They would hold these like tough dude tournaments, which were kind of like legal street fights. But Griffin's like, yeah, they got really brutal. Like these guys would bleed. And he's like, I used to watch this shit as a kid with my uncle, blah, blah, blah.

And then, yeah, ECW.

So in walks Rollins with some emails that Taru got off of a tablet that they found at Ian's apartment. And one is from Razor Crazer that reads, keep your mouth shut. You tell anyone about us and I'll effing kill you. So in the article, there's a picture of Ian with a kid named Roddy Razor Ray. So now we're at the gym watching two guys just bare knuckle box each other. Griffin is immediately hyped, like his eyes light up when he walks into this place.

We watch Roddy Razor Ray win the fight.

And then back in the locker room, he's enjoying a post-fight smoke, as you do. And then Benson and Griffin come to question him about Ian Larkin. Razor's like, I got nothing to say. He's a crackhead who can't be trusted. They bring up the email threats and they ask, where were you on Friday? He goes, I was home, half a case deep. Why? And they're like, oh, because Ian's dead.

And he looked shocked. I think if they're judging by reaction, Razor looks shocked that his buddy is dead. And he tells them, Like, the reason he told Ian to keep his mouth shut is private. I'm not talking to you guys about that. And he starts menacingly, like, telling Rollins to back off. Griffin tries to get him to chill and back off. And then this guy shoves Griffin. And so Rollins cuffs this huge MMA fighter like no problem.

She just, like, turns the guy around and is like, get your hands behind your back.

So.

Rollins has been working out.

In cement room bars, this guy's still cuffed and talking to Benson and Rollins. And he's like, what's the big deal? You never told one of your friends you wanted to kill him? I've known him a long time. And they're like, well, give us the history.

What's up?

And he goes, yeah, like me and my friends wanted to learn fighting. And we hung around these guys. We did what they told us. Some of the guys took it too far, but they were stars and that's just the way it was.

And he goes, Ian was soft. He couldn't handle being messed with.

And they asked if, did any of these guys ever take advantage of like you young kids? And Benson explains, you know, childhood victims can carry around shame, but the shame only belongs to the adults who abuse the children. And Razor's like, yeah, at first it was like a dream to be able to watch these guys fight, to get close with them. It made me feel older and important.

But then the line gets blurred. He said one got physical and started touching us or me, and it felt gross. And they go, can you tell us his name? And he goes, Clint, Clint O'Neal. So that's the executioner. That's the guy we were just talking to, being buddy-buddy with at the old con. So, Ben.

You mean the guy with the mask that they found on the crime scene is involved in the crime?

I know. I know. Very.

I mean, like, why would this.

If this guy was at the crime scene, which I'm not going to reveal yet, why are you leaving your executioner mask there? Whatever. So. Benson tells him he should come forward and hold O'Neal accountable, and Razor's like, no way. I'd be a joke. I'm not going to throw my career away. And Rollins is like, dog, you spent Sunday nights bleeding at a VFW for a few dozen people.

Like, what are you actually losing?

And he's like, it's not that much to you, but it's the only thing I've ever been good at, and I'm not going to risk it all.

Like, she is being kind of rude.

And so now Benson and Rollins are talking to Sean, Ian's brother, and telling him about Ian's abuse.

And he's like incredulous. He had no idea.

He feels bad for the way he's always treated his brother and how he's like, I'm the one that got him into this fight crap. I basically said I'm glad he's dead. He's like very, very upset to get this news. It sheds his whole brother's life. It sheds a new light on his brother's whole life. So they were like, we'd like to take a look at his stuff if that's okay. So... At the precinct now, Griffin has been working on tracking down these other kids, part of this group, the bruiser boys. One of them refuses to talk to him.

The other said he didn't see anything. And the other jumped off a bridge 10 years ago. And also, O'Neal has an alibi. He had dinner with his agent and two other people that night. And then his phone GPS shows him going straight back to his hotel across town from where Ian was found.

So where are we?

Rollins shows them a journal that she finds in Ian's stuff that the brothers allowed them to see. And he wrote in detail about his abuse, like where it happened, specific details about things he was forced to do, but he never names O'Neill. So around that time, he gets a payment for about $ 1, 200 that's listed as reimbursement for expenses.

But then Rollins is like, yeah, but he signed an agreement for that money. That's like non-disparagement, release of claim to litigation, right? And the company that he signed this contract with is called Fight Reps Incorporated. They're a defunct LLC that was owned by, dun-dun, Sharon Hunsinger, Clint's current agent.

So they have correspondence between lawyers that they found, and it's Ian wanting to sue Sharon and Clint. And according to the lawyer's notes, Sharon Hunsinger flipped out when the lawyer approached with these accusations. So Benson says, I'm going to go give Sharon a little squeeze. And Benson's wearing her very 70s, like almost Jeffrey Dahmer style glasses that we've been seeing her favor these days.

And they look fucking hot. I really like her.

She looks good. I think now that she... Hot take. I'm like, I really like her.

I think now that she's like a captain, she can't really fuck around with her wardrobe as much. She's kind of like always wearing a black blazer. And like, so I think the eyewear, she's doing things with like eyewear, outerwear, you know?

Was she not always in blue? Was she more loose?

When she was a detective with Stabler, it was usually like slacks, but then like, you know, purple top, a little sweater, a little like something, you know?

Damn, I didn't realize that. She's more in suit coats, huh?

Yeah.

Wow. Now that she's the big boss, I feel like she's more in suit coats. But that is my favorite shape of glasses. Ever. And I think she pulls them off so good with like a nice little tint. But they're also like legit because her eyeballs do seem bigger.

Yeah, I'm sure. Like they're a little nerdy. I mean, I'm sure they're so... No, not real in that way. Like, I mean, prescription.

Oh, you think so? They make her eyes look bigger?

I feel like they're thick. Like, I don't know. There's something about it. I... I'm like upset. Yeah, I like it.

Well, her and her eyewear bounce on over.

There was a pair that I tried on at YSL. They looked so good, but I ran out.

I ran out of the store.

I actually had a cool moment because there was a line outside the store, but I texted my sales associate and she went and grabbed me.

Oh, exciting. You're in.

I'm in.

So now she's taken her gorgeous glasses and hauled her ass over to Sharon's office. And she's telling Benson, you know, the fight game's not easy, but I keep the place afloat. Like, I know it's not a fancy, you know, Park Avenue office, but my guys know I'm dedicated. And then she's like, yeah, you must really, you know... whatever, do a lot for them.

And she goes, my clients love a personal touch. And Benson goes, that's curious phrasing considering that Clint O'Neal sexually abuses young boys. Drops the hammer. This woman is emotionless in her response. She goes, the hell he does. What a ridiculous claim. I never heard such a thing. She's like barely upset. And Benson goes, I think you have because you paid this guy Ian off 20 years ago and you had multiple convos with Ian's lawyer about a lawsuit.

So I think you know who I'm talking about.

And she's like, Okay, yeah, maybe it sounds familiar, but I know Clint and he isn't capable of that. And Benson's like, how do you know? She's like, he's more than a client. He's like family. We've stuck together. And now some drug addict wants to ruin his legacy. I can't have that. And then... Benson goes, yeah, that sounds like a motive for murder. And Sharon acts like she doesn't even know what Liv is talking about, so she spells it out. Like, Ian's dead. He was killed the opening night of the convention where you and Clint both were.

So what happened? Like, were you guys scared that he would make a scene? And she's like, I couldn't overpower a man. And Benson's like, you could if he was incapacitated. And then this woman, Sharon... Clint's like family, but she's ready to spill. She goes, okay, listen, Clint didn't go back to the hotel after dinner. She doesn't know where he went. He said he wanted to take a stroll around the city. And then she saw he left his phone on the table and she brought it back to the hotel and left it with the front desk. That's why the GPS showed that he went straight home. And I didn't see Clint until the morning. It is interesting how we just kind of are like, well, people are with their phones. Everyone's with their phones. You know, if

your phone says you're here, then that's where you are. You know, like, because I mean, mostly people are, but it's not embedded. It's not implanted. You know, like you can separate from it. Um, so we cut to the set. This is another area where I think we get kind of funny. We cut to the set of like a local commercial for Kennedy Motors where Clint is starring alongside someone in a squirrel costume.

Very Matt, the mattress episode.

Yes. Like we don't need this person in a squirrel costume, but it's funny.

Clint has to knock.

Out this poor squirrel with like an Oscar the Grouch style trash can, like a shiny silver trash can. It's like he just bonks him and then the squirrel sits down and, Everyone's like, cut. Great job, Clint. Great job knocking out the squirrel.

But also, in what world would, like, a C-rate old fighter in a gimp mask be offered a commercial?

I think it's local.

Like, if it's for a local, like, body shop, you know, it's kind of like, sure, everybody in this area knows this guy. So, like, because we all grew up watching the fights. So, like, he could be, you know, the guy. Yeah. So, and I think we're made to believe also that Clint is as famous as you can get in this like level, right?

Like of this medium level wrestling world. So Rollins and Griffin walk onto the set. They're like, O'Neal, we need to ask you some questions downtown. He's like, can we talk later? I'm obviously busy. And then Rollins like, you want me to tell all these guys that you like diddling teenage boys?

And suddenly- That's such good acting. Like- The face he makes, like... Yeah. It's pissed, but he knows he can't actually be pissed. It's the face of a guilty man.

Yeah.

It's, like, really good acting. I really like his face in this.

And, like, he's not even trying to be like, what are you talking about? He's just like, he's like, sorry, full crew of people. A location's been booked. All these people are being paid a day rate.

Yeah, like a quick weird lie, but also just the rage as he looks at that.

Like, ugh. Yeah. Yeah.

He goes, I double booked myself.

Let's finish this up tomorrow as if this wasn't supposed to just be a one day car shoot at like this dealership. So now in cement room bars, we've got Benson and Rollins taking a run at Clint and they have him on camera a block from Ian's hotel. So he lied about going back to the hotel and they're like, nice move leaving your phone. And he's like, I'm an old guy. I forget things, you know? So they're like, you don't remember someone that you sexually abused and someone your agent paid off. And you're the victim here. And he goes, I ain't the villain. I'll tell you that.

So they're like, we know that Ian came to you with bad intentions. He had zip ties.

He had a gun. If you defended.

Yourself from an attack, that's self-defense. Yeah, so I could tell you that this junkie tries to get one over on me. Tried to put his hands on me. I smack him a couple times, but he keeps coming, crying and whining, pathetic. Guys like that don't learn. You got to teach them. You got to show them there's a cost at coming for the big dog. I think the kid got it. Finally learned his lesson right there at the end as the light went out of his eyes.

And then he goes, I know that's what you're hoping to hear, but it's nonsense. It's hype, like what we give our fans. And then he lawyers up.

So even though he basically.

Just confessed to what happened, he's like, that's a story. It's not true, blah, blah, blah. So I think he's kind of fucking with them. Outside the two-way glass, Carisi's been watching this whole thing go down with ADA, Cindy, CJ, Jones.

Who works with Carisi. She's like another ADA.

I think she's in a bunch of season 27 episodes, and then I think she'll be in season 28 as well. And CJ's like, you cannot.

Put this guy.

I like her.

Yeah, me too.

There's something about her I like. I think she comes from another, I think she comes from a Chicago show.

Oh, yeah, because we're pretty mean, I would say, to any new ADAs more than anybody.

Else in the cast.

No, because she has a Stephanie Cabot.

But she's great.

She has a Cabot, Novak vibe to her, you know? Like, that's why I think she looks tough. And she's like, I think she, I like her.

Yeah, I like her.

So CJ goes, you cannot put this guy in front of a jury. They're going to love his shtick too hard. Like, this guy's just too, like, smooth talky, you know? We got to tie O'Neal to Ian or he walks. So now Benson tracks down Razor at his delivery job. The truck behind him says Nemu, like Timu, but it's Nemu.

And Razor is busy and he's.

Like, I don't want to talk.

I'm working. And Benson's like, I just wanted you to read this journal entry of Ian's that I found. And so he starts reading it and he's like, I'm so tired of going through the motions.

If it weren't for.

And then he stops reading and Liv keeps the reading going and he goes, if it weren't for Razor, I would have checked out a long time ago.

I can't leave him alone. It's just us. No one else gets it.

If I give up, the guy that hurts us wins and that would piss off Razor more than anything.

And so.

this is obviously hitting Razor. And Benson's like, if you don't come forward, this guy gets away with everything. Everything he did to you and Ian, he gets away with. So now we're in court. CJ is questioning Emmy Horowitz. She's back. And she's like, yeah, the victim would have suffered greatly before his death, like given all of the injuries I saw. And then she says, given the injuries, it would indicate that whoever killed him was a person of significant strength. And then O'Neal's lawyer takes a turn and goes, is my client the only person of significant strength in New York City? And she's like, no, you know, whatever.

So then he goes, how much DNA did you gather at the scene? And she goes, 34 samples. And did any of the 34 samples match Mr. O'Neal?

No, they did not.

I do find it kind of hard to believe that if this guy was there, he didn't leave any DNA, but... Next, Carisi is questioning... Like, if they were fighting, he didn't get any skin under his nails, like, nothing. But Carisi's questioning Razor, and he talks about meeting Ian when they were 15 years old. He thought he was a know-it-all at first, but then they bonded, and they became fast friends.

And Carisi goes, okay, I know this is really hard, but could you describe when the sexual abuse first started?

And Roddy goes... No, I can't. And Carisi's like, what? He goes, I'm sorry.

And then Razor goes, I was never sexually abused. And Carisi's like, what the fuck? You told detectives you had been molested by Clint O'Neal. And he goes, yeah, that never happened. And Carisi's like, may I remind you that you're under oath?

And he goes.

you told Benson that he plied you with drugs and alcohol and touched you sexually. That was a lie. And he goes, yeah. I also lied about thinking that Clint killed Ian. And they're like, why would you lie to the police? And he goes, I just felt terrible about Ian's death. And I told the cops what they wanted to hear. So I hate it when somebody flips their story on the stand. I know it's good TV, but what the hell? Benson shows up at the place that Razor fights. I don't really know why he'd even show up to say no. I feel like he would have just gone, I'm not testifying. Like, I'm not doing it.

You know?

Yeah.

But Benson shows up at the place that Razor... But maybe they would have used his interview and....

Yeah.

Anyway, Benson shows up at the place that Razor fights, the VW, and sees Sharon getting into her car as Benson's getting out of her car. So interesting. And now Razor's in the ring and, you know, shadowboxing. And Benson mentions, oh, I just saw Sharon. Was she here for you? And he goes, she might have said hello. She's a fan of my work. Benson's like, what'd she give you? And he goes, a contract to be a client. She's going to book me some gigs in Japan. And Benson's like, was it worth it? Like, how could you let this guy get away with what he did to you and Ian?

And he's like, Ian's gone and I'm here. I've been living with this for 20 years. And what do I have to show for it? Pain and poverty. The clock is running out and it's my last chance.

If Ian were here, he would understand.

So the next day in court, O'Neal's on the stand saying, I didn't even know the kid and I had nothing to do with his death. And O'Neal says, everywhere I go, people want something from me. They want me to be their dad, their hero, their teacher. In this case, their monster. And Carisi's turn, he goes, how many of your championships are in pro boxing?

And he goes, two.

And then he goes, and then since then, you've pretty much been exclusively fighting for the Bruiser Fighting Championship, the BFC, obviously. Is that because you were permanently banned from professional boxing in 1992, accused of taking a dive? Which I obviously had to Google, even though I kind of thought I knew what it was. And it is. It's when you lose on purpose as like part of a grift or like a corruption thing. So you talk about your skill in the ring, but given your history of cheating, doesn't that call into question... your entire career. And who's to say if any of your fights were real? And Carisi's getting this guy really riled up. He's like, you don't know what you're talking about, this guy Clint is saying.

And then he's like, Carisi goes, you don't fight real men. You hurt teenage boys. And he goes, shut your mouth. And there's a badgering objection and the judge sustains, but Carisi keeps going. And the judge tells Carisi, if you have no more pertinent questions.

Get out of here. And he's like, I have nothing further.

And then Benson is sort of comforting Ian's brother, Sean, in the gallery. In the next scene, the foreman gives their verdict. They find O'Neal not guilty. Sean looks upset. At the precinct, Liv tells her gang, okay, guys, we can be pissed tonight, but tomorrow we start building.

And I feel like Oldie is, like, smug, too.

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

He's gross.

And at the precinct, Liv tells the gang, look, we can be pissed tonight, but tomorrow we start building a new case. They're like, boss, he was just acquitted. And they're like, yeah, of murder, not the sexual assault. We widen the net. We find more victims. We do whatever it takes. Again, this would never in a million years happen in real life. And then a uniformed officer comes in and hands a message to Benson. And her face says it all. It's wild that this is a paper message, what she gets. Like nobody sent her a text or a phone call. Outside a diner, we're now outside of a diner, cops, police tape everywhere.

There's a body on the ground.

The cops on the scene tell her that this guy was jumped as he left the diner, stabbed, choked to death on his own blood. So if you want to talk about the callback to the fact that Ian died a very painful death, choking on your own blood.

Doesn't seem great, you know? So obviously.

Benson pulls back the little sheet and it's Clint O'Neal dead on the ground. And they have the attacker in custody in the back of the squad car. And Benson is sad to see that it is Sean, Ian's brother. And he's like, I had to do something. And that's Dick Wolf, baby. And now this poor man with dementia, Louis, the dad, I don't know who's taking care of him.

One of his sons just died and the other son's going to jail. And the mom died. And now this guy's just going to be In a state-run home.

I guess.

I don't know.

It's terrible.

I wonder how long his sentence will be.

Yeah.

If they could do, like, temporary insanity or, like, you know.

Yeah.

When you're in a rage about something.

But it's interesting, like, we've recently done episodes about... We've recently done episodes about a guy molesting kids at Little League. A guy molesting kids at basketball.

Like, I don't think.

people would think that at these like fight club type of things where the sport is so, so physical that there could be.

Predators, but the, you know, the moral of that story is that there's always a.

You think the more physicality of it makes it less likely?

Well, just like that these kids eventually get to be so strong that they can fight back.

You know what I mean?

Of course, same with basketball players and same with baseball players, but yeah, you're right. There is no, there is no link. The moral of the story is the predators are everywhere. Yeah. It's just like, yeah, with the fighting, it's so... This is actually probably a breeding ground for more abuse because it's so not as regulated. These clubs that they start are just like got kids that want to get involved and then they just hang around and there's recruiters that get them in. It's not like there's a youth league and then there's a travel league for this kind of stuff.

You know what I mean? It's probably actually even worse.

Well, and it's like with everything where it's like just power... Access, people wanting things, mentors, like, easy to groom. Yeah.

And then, like, specifically, it's, like, Roy's, like, they're all, you know, in the gym. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

Okay, this is, like, there's some tough stuff in this one.

Yeah.

So this all has to do with the WWE, formerly WWF, and like Vince McMahon, married to Linda McMahon, our Department of Education secretary.

If it still exists, unclear.

Unclear.

So January 2024, a former WWE employee sued Vince, accusing him of routine sexual abuse and trafficking her to other employees and talent at the wrestling company. janelle grant um it was a 67 page lawsuit in connecticut um federal court um sorry i got distracted by connecticut i was Janelle Grant, and it's just because of you. I live right by those WWE offices. Well, that's what I was about to say. The offices are there. So anyone we've known that's gotten a job writing there, like you do have to move to Connecticut, which is.

Like the worst life. Yeah, or commute out to Stanford. Yeah.

There's worse lives, my bad.

So Janelle Grant in a 67-page lawsuit in Connecticut in the federal courts there. Her job there was coordinator in the WWE's legal department.

And the job became a nightmare.

She was pushed into a physical relationship in exchange for the promise of future employment at the company. So Vince McMahon would greet her for meetings in his underwear, touch her, and repeatedly ask for hugs, and then spent hours detailing his own intimate life. Like, definite cokehead vibes, too.

Ugh.

Her employment became conditional on sex. So if she was not engaging in sexual activity, her job was not guaranteed. Then he took photos and videos of her and started to share these explicit material with other employees.

At the company. Oh my God.

And there's proof of this because he would text her, just passed my phone around to a bunch of guys on the tech crew.

They were screaming.

He then started arranging for her to then have sex with other employees, which included former head of talent relations, John Laranitis, who is a, I didn't say it right, but who cares? And he's a co-defendant in the case. That's fucking trafficking. And those were the charges.

Jesus.

And those were the charges.

So he would recruit people to have sexual relations with her. And then these encounters would leave Grant with brutal, painful injuries, bleeding, swelling, bruising, spans of incontinence resulting from McMahon's use of fists, adult toys, and other objects.

Jesus.

And I know we talk about a lot of fucked up shit on this podcast and like with children, but this might, okay. So during one of these encounters, he defecated on her head. And then he went to shower, but told her she had to stay there in place and continue performing for his friend during this threesome while she had excrement in her hair.

Jesus Christ.

She was used. The thing is, like, there is so much there.

Also, there is a Netflix six part documentary on this man. So, like, if you want more information on him. But I remember watching, like, a documentary in college, like, in some women's studies class, like, about Vince McMahon and, like, the sick shit he did in the ring to women and the way women were treated, like, in the ring. So, like, none of this is even...

I mean, it's a shocking thing to read and listen to. So, like, this is shocking. And it is disgusting. But, like, he would do disgusting things to women in the ring. In front of audiences and pay-per-views. Like, demean them in ways that were tough to watch. And I remember, like, watching it in college.

And this woman is still married to him?

No, this isn't about Linda.

No, no, no.

She was never married to him. Vince McMahon is married to Linda McMahon.

No, that's what I mean. She's still married to him.

Like, I thought maybe they got divorced, but she still married him after, like, this documentary and everything you're saying and, like.

She's a sick bitch. They're all twins with Trump. They're all friends. No, after... It's so gross.

It's interesting you bring that up, Cara, and I'll get to it, but once the wife, Linda, found out, they ended up firing Janelle.

Because she was mad. To her, it was like a... You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Janelle lost her job.

Oh, my God.

Which is.

All the humiliation she endures still.

She gets fired.

And then she was used as a sexual pawn to entice world-famous wrestling talent, including Brock Lesnar, who is not named in the suit, but is referred to in, like, such obvious descriptions that it's clear it's him. And then the Wall Street Journal then did confirm it was him.

Wow.

McMahon gave Lesnar her phone number and said she would do anything that he wanted with her.

She said in the affidavit... I felt used.

Leveraged, humiliated, shamed, dehumanized, intimidated, and exploited for the business and the sexual gratification of these men. And she felt trapped because, you know, COVID-19 and they're all like living and working from home, all in the same building, and she could not escape him. So then January 2022, the assault stopped and she was fired. Then Linda, the wife and Trump cabinet member, found out.

But yeah, what's Linda's take? Like she knows that this is all going on? Oh, well, okay.

So she did find out about all this. She fired, she's the one that fired her and then pressured her to sign an NDA. And then this woman was given a $ 3 million lump sum and But then McMahon just stopped paying out of, you know, stopped paying, obviously. But it's also like, what innocent person gives you $ 3 million and an NDA to sign?

Like, you're guilty. Lederhosen, guilty. Okay, after....

After firing her and quieting her with the NDA, he continued to exploit her and tried to traffic her in March 2022 to a.

Different WWE star.

So then he stepped down because there were so many sexual misconduct claims and payouts to many women. But then he returned in January 2023, then resigned again in June 2024 after the sexual misconduct claims.

Kept piling up. That's another thing.

Why won't these old motherfuckers just stop working?

And I'm including my father in this. Like, leave the pool alone. Well, if you just stay home all day, who are you going to sexually harass? And I'm excluding your father in this. Okay, thank you.

So then the Department of Justice started looking into this as a criminal investigation, but then Trump took power, and then the probe was dropped in 2025, and no criminal charges were filed.

So... Bros helping bros. I cannot believe. I didn't know any of this. Like, I think I sort of in the background knew Vince McMahon was like a horrible person for a long time. I didn't know that Trump dropped the whole fucking thing. I mean, it makes total sense.

But ew.

And Trump would make appearances in the rest, like throughout the year.

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

That was part of my college videos. Yeah, it's, yeah, they've been friends forever. I mean, it's Giuliani, it's all of them, you know, fucking freaks. January 2025, he did, however, settle administrative charges that were filed by the Securities and Exchange Commission, alleging that he violated federal securities laws by failing to inform WWE's board of directors that he had signed nondisclosure agreements with two women who he promised to pay $ 10. 5 million to keep quiet about his sexual misconduct.

So again, it's like people care about money more than anything.

He paid $ 400, 000 in civil penalties and then he had to reimburse the WWE the $ 1.

3 million.

But did the women get any fucking money in the end? That's what I want to know.

And then July 2026, it was decided the case would not head to trial, but instead was resolved outside of the courtroom in arbitration. John Leonidas also agreed to cooperate in this lawsuit. And yeah, and again, reminding you, Linda McMahon is the Department of Education.

A woman who is married to a man who shits on women and traffics them is the head of our Department of Education.

Just a reminder.

I mean, at least in the arbitration, hopefully, these women got some... Like, if they're not going to see any criminal liability for this, then I want them to get some money, at least.

Yeah, hopefully she got millions. I mean, yeah, it's sick.

Gross. So then, now this is the WWF, but it was the same because, you know, there's WCW, and then they combined. But this is a ring boy sex abuse scandal. So five young boys came... I mean, they were men, but... They were boys at the time. So they came forward in May 2024, five men. And then three more victims joined the suit as well later on. And they were sexually exploited by a ringside announcer that Vince McMahon knew about and the whole Federation knew about.

And then they did nothing about it.

Whoa.

So the lawsuit was then. So that's when they came forward.

The lawsuits filed October 2024 in Baltimore County, Maryland. These boys were as young as 12 and they were assistants to ringside announcer Melvin Phillips Jr., who did die in 2012. And the abuse was 70s, 80s, 90s. He was fired in 88 because of all this and then rehired just like a few weeks later. Phillips would lure young boys by promising them backstage access. Linda and Vince knowingly allowed the abuse. So who knows what the fuck Linda's trafficking and doing while working in education, knowing young boys were being abused. Like you couldn't find another ringside announcer. Like this is my thing too. It's like, who are these people you're even fucking protecting?

Yeah.

Of course, the kids were called liars because men love coming forward about abuse. The lawsuit claims that Phillips groomed them, then exploited and sexually abused these children and targeted kids from Brooklyn.

Homes.

The claimants of the suit say that this happened and not only like events, but hotels, other venues, and he videotaped these incidents. A federal judge paused the case in December 2024, which is wild since like Linda McMahon's, again, position is in like She's in charge of investigating sexual misconduct in education programs. Like, that is the secretary's job.

So it's like, this fucking human trafficking, pedophile, abuse-allowing bitch.

Did none of this come up during her, like, confirmation hearings?

They just, like, went away from the WWE.

But yeah, like, she is in charge of investigating sexual misconduct while employing people for decades with it.

Okay.

February 2025, the Supreme Court of Maryland upheld the Maryland Child Victims Act of 2023 as constitutional and then applied it to this WWE ring boys case and allowed it to move forward. May 2025, Linda tried to force the plaintiffs of the lawsuit to identify themselves publicly and a district court judge said no. June 2025, they tried to get it thrown out again and it's like, it's not gonna happen, lady. So then they tried to stop the case fully, and that got dismissed as well. In February 2026, a report from a Maryland judge did not allow this dismissal.

The case is moving forward, and this last kind of court ruling ended up allowing Discovery to get internal documents and sworn testimony. And figure out who knew the abuse and what they did with the information. The status of the case is ongoing. And I hope these boys get a lot of money and continue to keep their anonymity.

Damn.

But yeah, so this is like timely as fuck because February 2026 is when they're like, no, we're doing this court case.

So I'm sure they're going to.

Settle out of court. Maybe they can get her out too.

If she gets like legally. Kara. I know, I'm just.

Well, no, I was about to say you're delusional because our president's a rapist, but then they are more willing.

He doesn't defend any of the women in his cabinet. That's what I was about to say.

They're more willing to like, you know, get rid of a woman.

So she might.

Damn.

All right.

Well, thank you for all that information. I honestly knew nothing about either of those things. My information of the WWE, despite being a local Connecticut girl, is not good.

I don't, it's not deep.

Don't go anywhere, guys, because we have, I mean, really kind of a lovely interview coming up. Okay, our guest today is an actor, stuntman, parkour athlete, former competitor on American Ninja Warrior. But you know him today as professional fighter and victim, Roddy Razor Ray. Please enjoy our chat with the wonderful Jesse LaFleur. Well, I'm interested in like how you got to acting because you are a free runner and like a parkour, like and a stunt person.

And you've been doing that for like a really, really long time. Has acting always been right next to that? Or is that something that you grew into like later?

You know, they both actually launched like at the exact same time. I was in New York for five years. But after I got out of college, I was, that's where I discovered parkour. It was like back in the day where it was like, non-existent. YouTube wasn't even a thing. So you were like, had to dive into the forums and kind of be nerdy about finding the movement and videos from other parts of the world. But when I got to New York, there's a culture there already and there was like people training it. And so I dove right in and I knew that I wanted to act.

I was already filming and editing and I produced some like kind of jackass style DVD and things. And so like, I was already like skin in the game. I knew my life was going to be cameras and video and But I didn't know how to get there and actually make money doing it. And then on Craigslist, as I'm diving through stuff and trying to look for jobs that are in the creative space of all these things, I found a listing for parkour. And it was for Eastman Kodak Company. And so at that time, they literally were asking for tapes. So I filmed this audition, probably my first ever self-tape, and sent it in and ended up booking this... It was like a short story. It's called Equinox. They, what, what they would do is they'd take different film stocks,

their newest film stock and an older film stock and shoot this like really high end, beautiful piece with multiple film cameras at the same time. And then in the industry, tell this story, then pause the story for a bit, talk about the different film stocks they used and the advantage of the new one and continue to tell this like narrative story. And so I booked the lead of this thing and got to act and do parkour and for my very first like bigger piece.

Yeah, like you were a finalist on American Ninja Warrior.

And I have to imagine that parkour people like crush that because it's not like, it's not enough to be like, oh, I'm a personal trainer at home. I'm jacked, you know, like for American Ninja Warrior, it's like you're doing all this wild stuff.

Yeah, Ninja Warrior is an interesting space because it actually started off very parkour friendly. Like it was like guys like me could just blast through. And I didn't really, there was, I mean, there's people who train the entire year for that moment. And as you know, TV shows are TV shows. And I've done some reality shows like that before, Fox and all that stuff. And you can, it can be like, it's not a very specific sport where there's all these things that can align. Like for instance, my buddy Flip Rodriguez, who's like a diehard training athlete, works his butt off for it. Back in the day before he was like a name for them, you could get up at 4 a.m. out in Venice Beach and everything is just, stuffed with condensation. Everything's wet. There's no

way around it. They could wipe it down, but they're running late. They just had two guys fall. The water's over there. They try to wipe it and they're like, all right, Jesse, go. And now like, imagine being a guy that like worked their butt off to like for this one moment and you just go and slip because it's wet. It's, it's soul crushing. Um, but I wasn't those guys. I was just like, I just want to see if I could do it fast. So that's why I ended up with like the fastest qualifying times, um, in Venice beach, won a little cash for it. Um, But yeah, it was just because I just wanted to see what did my parkour skills, how did they lend to this course? But as time went on, Ninja Warrior became much more about the climbing skills and forearm strength.

And so there's still a lot of like technicalities about how you're grabbing obstacles and how you're moving with them.

But if you don't... Well, now there's full ninja gyms.

Are you guys competitors?

Are you guys kind of like adversaries, the ninja and parkour?

It's a different space.

And kids are doing that.

My daughter's friends are doing ninja class like once a week and they're like, They're like little seven-year-old blonde twins that are like, hi. Just jacked little kids.

Yeah.

And then, okay, so you came to our attention because I hadn't actually watched your episode yet because I was like late on getting season 27 finished.

I hadn't seen your episode yet, but you came to our attention because you had.

This video that went viral, like 12 million views or something on Instagram. I don't know about other platforms where you're talking about like the craziness of getting a role on this show. Like the video is like three seconds long, right? Just a loop, but the message, like the caption.

Quiver crying.

Yeah, which is, I think, cool.

Showing strong, like, you know, you're kind of playing characters that are like, Very hyper-masculine, I would say. And you're like there crying, being like, this is okay that I'm like overcome with emotion.

I'm pro that. And about just how.

I mean, insane the processes of getting a job like this, having to go actually, like it's what we talk about with actors when they come on this show, the process of like, okay, then once you get the call, then what? You have to go to the airport and you might not have the right ticket or like whatever is happening in your video. And I think it just like resonated with so many people.

They think that you get a part and.

It's like, you know, you get on a private jet and you fly to this place and you have four weeks to work on your lines.

And it's like, no, it's so fast.

Yeah, yeah. I'll walk you through some of that experience. I mean, again, now that we've kind of been introduced to who I was, right, with that parkour space and the stunt space, making that decision to become the actor and be actor forward and not be viewed as the stunt guy who's trying to act, which is very challenging.

taboo in a lot of ways. And also if casting is looking at your material.

Is it taboo?

For sure.

I think it's, I mean, it used to be even more, especially even in the stunt space, like stunt coordinators would be like, if you're trying to do that, I'm not hiring you. I want to hire stunt guys. And if you think about it, I want to hire the guy that's training to do the movement. I obviously have enough history that the guys are still going to trust me.

They know that I've been pro long enough, but I'm not going to hire a new guy that's caught between training movement and how to fall properly and do wire work. And then also it was like splitting half his time, um, doing, trying to do that.

Trying to like chat up the director.

Exactly.

I think that used to be, that used to be the thing that was even more scary for them.

You know, I act also.

Yeah. Oh, by the way. Oh, no, for real.

Oops.

Is that my reel?

Yeah.

Oh, there it is. Um, and so it's trying to make that pivot in a way that felt really professional. And And realistically, the industry is a place where you need proof of concept, right? You need to be able to like show them you've done it. And talking about stunts, I've been in the highest stake situations in films where we only have one take, Jesse. And if you mess this up, it's going to cost literally $ 70, 000 because this thing is going down. That's going down. We have to reset all this. And so like thinking about an actor, and again, I had some bigger credits, but nothing, the guest stars I had, I don't, I still, they're still action-based in my mind. And maybe that's my own story.

But I'm here trying to prove myself as an actor and get these co-stars and these guest stars and these whatever, the recurring. And so when I get an audition that is a guest star or a top of show guest star, which is what the role ended up being, I'm going to take it as serious as I possibly can. And this one particular came in, it came in already like, you have less than 48 hours. Here's the full script of the episode, which no one ever gives us a full script. And He said, sorry for it to being so rushed. And so now I know there's an opportunity because they're in trouble. They need someone quickly.

Yeah.

So I'm like, okay, I read the thing. Razor Ray, essentially an athlete who has trained his whole life, trying to live his passion and his dream, has gone through some really heavy material and is still just fighting for his life to do the things he always dreamed of doing. And so I'm like, okay, I can relate to that.

Right.

Like I'm easy, like immediately like in this space and, and we can get into it, but like, I've, I didn't have the easiest childhood. And so like, all of a sudden I'm like feeling this guy. And so I'm read the thing and I'm like, okay, I just go to work. I read the entire script. I stay up. I start doing all my memorization skills, all the things I had learned over the 15, 17 years of doing all this. And I'm writing out my stuff. And the next morning, my wife was also an incredible actor. Her name is Brian LaFleur. Um, She's my best reader. You know, like we have this setup. I'm all ready to go.

She's a great reader. The kids go to school. I think it's like we just have a moment and we film it. And sometimes with these, I'm like not a perfectionist, but I have a director's vision. I have the editor's vision. So I know how I want to tell the story, but also need to show up and perform it properly.

And so I just, I put it on tape. It was like the first scene, by the way, is like six pages or something. It's like a heavy interrogation. It's like all big material. And then the other one's like courtroom scene. And so that one's, it's still serious, but it's a couple pages. So easy peasy. So I dive into it. I think our fourth take, we both just looked at each other like, we're good. Like that was it.

All right. And so then we do the other one.

All right.

Fourth take. We're good. Let's send it. So I blast it off, send it. And then, uh, We both, my wife always does this thing when I book stuff. It's before one, women are just intuitive, I think naturally, but she's extra intuitive sometimes. She'll go like, okay, yeah, that was, we'll probably get a call from that one, you know?

And so I literally said out loud, like, man, we should have, I should probably just start learning the other scenes. I have the full script. Like what if this thing goes, it seems like they're rushing. I didn't, of course, because it was only like less than 24 hours later. I'm outside with my kids, my mother-in-law's here. She's like, Bree's trying to call you. Something about SVU.

I'm like, oh my gosh.

So I'm like, my phone's inside on the charger. I'm like, where's my phone? My agent is also reps my wife. So she was able to call her, but call my agent back. She's like, you got SVU wants you top show guest star. I cannot tell them you will take this because I'm right now in Wilmington, North Carolina. I can't tell him you booked it until you have a flight in your hand. Meanwhile, this is right after that giant snow storm you guys got in New York.

Oh my God.

It's like the weekend after that. Flames are already like super delayed. I don't know what the deal is. Wilmington has two flights that go out after a certain hour to New York. So there's only technically two flights left. My agent's assistant's trying to send me something. It won't let me book the ticket. So I'm already in like stress mode because I'm like, why isn't it letting me book?

I finally get in touch with someone. They're like, yeah, you can't book a ticket online if it's leaving within an hour. Like literally the flight is leaving in like 30 minutes. Like I need to get there. So I like blast off. I grab like nothing, grab a backpack. I think I threw a piece, a pair of underwear in there. I like nothing else. I was just like, I'll buy it, you know? So I go, I'm already stressed and get to the airport. I'm like running. I'm feeling good about it all though. I'm like stoked. I remember I recorded a video of me like running there, sending to like the acting studio that I'm part of and all the people, we have a little support group.

And so I'm like, we're doing it baby. And I'm screaming, but I'm stressing. So I run through, I get there and they're like, sorry, yeah, we don't book tickets at the booth. And I'm like, what do you mean you can't put tickets at the counter?

What?

Against every movie I've ever seen in my life.

I know. And so she's like, here's a phone number. I was like, all right, it's just like a direct number.

Perfect. I call it. So I call it.

And you know, the like speaker thing picks up. It's like, hello, I've seen you've called from this number before. Would you like to remember your name? I'm like, stop. I'm like freaking out. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, fine. Remember my name. It's like, sorry, please say yes or no. I'm like, can I explode? I'm like, oh my God.

So I'm like, yes.

It ends up getting put on hold. And I see the American Airlines counter. I'm like, run over there. Do you guys have any flights to going to New York? And it's, I was told to go to JFK because it was less crowded or less air traffic or whatever the deal was. LaGuardia was American. So I was like, I don't care. Like our flight's going. So yes, we have one more flight. It is delayed. It's delayed an hour.

And I was like, that's only helping me at this point a little bit. Right. But I'm still worried about things getting canceled. Okay, great. She's like, I will say all the flights have left. So I can tell you that today's they're not, they haven't canceled anything and it's in route here right now. Okay. All good news.

Right.

I'm like, let's do it. And so then, so I book it, I hang up with United or whatever and get onto the line. Now Wilmington airport is like, it's like, it's a pretty small airport comparatively. And I usually walk through with maybe one person in front of me. It's like the easy peasy kind of airport. I get there, it's the longest line I've ever seen. And now I'm like, I'm like, what is happening right now? I know it's delayed.

So I don't, I shouldn't be stressing, but I, so I have the script. I'm like starting to like go through lines and read my stuff and try to see the other stuff I'm doing. I know first up, I think I know at this point that the interrogation scene is first up. Maybe I don't. Anyway, so I get through. The flight ends up getting delayed an hour and a half Then all of a sudden it's two hours delayed.

Now it's really starting to go. I'm starting to go.

It's in route.

It's only like an hour away is what I was told. You know, like that's a short flight. How is it taking this long?

Right.

Anyway, so all of a sudden, okay, we're going to board.

Oh, thank God.

Right.

A moment of that. Now I'm also trying to figure out, you know, my wife's cousin, like she's not picking up. I'm supposed to stay with her maybe. And so there's like all these other little things happening. But we get on the flight. And we end up pulling out. I'm like, okay, we're doing it. And then we're sitting there. We're just sitting there. 15 minutes go by, 20 minutes go by. Finally, dude gets on the microphone. He's like, folks, I'm sorry to say, we just got a little delay going on.

I will say, though, if I do pull back into the gate, that this will be the final destination of this flight. And by this time, my agent has already told production and casting, Jesse's in, he'll be there, 6 a.m. that next morning. And so now I'm like... Okay, I'm about to ruin relationships for a lot of people and ruin a lot of days for tomorrow. So there's like this heavy stress on me.

But in your mind, are you like, if I got in a car right now, could I drive to New York City?

I'm literally doing the math. Okay, if I do the drive, I don't care. I know I can power through nine hours or whatever it is. But does it put me there in time? I'm now in the category of like, will I get there in time? Yeah. Let alone not have sleep and then do this interrogation scene. Finally, he just starts, the plane starts moving and it's driving and driving.

I've never been on a plane that was driving that long. And I don't, I don't think it was just my altered reality of time. I think it literally was driving for like 10 minutes, just driving and driving and driving. I'm like, what are we doing? Finally, we start to fuel up and I'm like, I blast off my text to my wife and my agent. We're taking off. We're taking off. And I think I let out like an audible F bomb for the entire plane to hear.

Yeah.

Um, And so we take off. And then I still get there. I got to figure out where the apartment is, do that, try to sleep. And I don't know if you guys have ever done it, but on those kind of bigger moments in life, you're so afraid that your phone is just going to die in the middle of the night or your alarm is just not going to go off. So you just start waking up every hour.

I can't sleep before anything, even a not big moment.

I'm like, what if I don't wake up?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm like doing that. I'm waking up every hour. At some point, I'm like, screw it. I got to get up anyway. It's still snowy out there. I got to figure out what Trains might be delayed where I'm walking to. So I left at like 4 a.m. or something. I was just like, I'm going. You're starting my day.

Running the lines, New York City, like a, you know, crazy normal person walking down saying some wild things out loud. And then, yeah, we got there and the day started. And then I'll, Answer any other questions.

With interrogation. And you're like Benson and you're with Rollins, right? You're with the two girls in the interrogation. The two very powerful women.

Yeah.

And then did you use the adrenaline, the energy?

How was that first scene, you know, on this like iconic fucking show?

What's nice.

You had a lot of lines like in this episode.

I think I did the math. I forget if it was 10 or 15. It was over 10 minutes of... Me on screen in comparatively to the entire episode. It was like a beautiful arc. Again, you know, as an actor, especially as someone who's like pinned in that action acting space, a lot of the stuff I get is it's not weighted material that could actually impact someone's life or say something or it's like, little things here and there. And maybe there's a moment, but this was something that like, I felt, yeah, it just felt like I really wanted to give every part of me to it. And so like, you know, I'm diving into all my tools and it's last minute, but I'm also like, I'm working things and I have some like, things I've learned that opened certain

emotional doorways. And I wanted emotion to be like there, but he's still a fighter and, you know, guy. And so he's holding the stuff back. And so my goal was to be on that precipice of like emotional release and finally being seen and heard by these people who have never talked about this before. And so I'm admitting it for the first time. And there's so much that is not on the page, but is in the scene.

And then to have Mariska and Kelly be sitting across from me and give me the opportunity to perform with them. And one of my favorite things that they did from that very first get-go was like, my first line in is, I don't care how many times you guys ask, I didn't kill Ian. And it could be said a million ways.

But Mariska knows how strong it needs to come in, right? And so she starts, could you guys drop your curses on here? You curse?

Of course.

So she's like, okay, good, good, good. She's like, she's like, you fucking killed him, didn't you? You fucking killed him. And like, Kelly starts chiming over there. No, yeah, we know you fucking killed him. And so like, now, like, like giving it to me, like everything. And so I'm like, I'm in heaven at this point because it just gives me a second and then keep it going. So like, I'm like letting myself get there before I fire back my first line. And I, she might've even meisnered me a little bit and went, did it again. And so I gave it back to her again. And And I mean, we did the scene for like three hours from every different angle you can imagine. But when they could see they wanted to pull more out, they would go there,

especially when they, because they're professional. They've been doing this for so long. So if the camera's not on them, they know they can get away with saying things that aren't going to be used, especially if we're not overlapping our dialogue. And so again, to be kind of gifted that professionalism as a partner, scene partners, I couldn't have asked for more. And it was, it was, but it was still like, again, as an actor, you're feeling these things for real. You're in it when you're, when you're truthfully in it, like your body cannot tell the difference.

And so not only the stress of getting there, the, the, the, the anxiety of showing up for a show that there's this iconic and being in a scene that's that intense with them. When they finally wrapped me for the day, that's how that clip came about. I, I, they, they said, Jesse's right for the day. I immediately felt all of it being like, okay, I know I'm starting to actually feel it now. Um, I can, I'm starting, it started to bubble up and I was like, Oh, this is going to be wild. And so I went back to the little fitting room and I, I did, I put my phone down to record and I've just been someone who's recorded my life in every aspect of it. So it wasn't like, let me, I don't even know. It wasn't like I'm going to post this one day. It

was just like, this needs to be captured for me and my memory or whatever it needed to be. And so I just quickly just threw the phone down and I laid on the ground and it did. It's only a six second clip. But it's a much longer cry. And there's a moment and my lip just started like, somatically, my body started to like feel it. My lips like, just like poured out. And I was just sitting there just letting it all kind of dump out. And it was happiness and it was sadness. And it was a lot of different things. But it was needed. Out of everything it was, it was like something that needed to happen. Otherwise, I don't know that, you know, the trapped emotion can turn into anything.

Did you sleep well that night?

Yeah. No. I had more roles than that. I had more scenes the next day. And then as an actor, you're never happy. So I'm like going home, replaying everything. I was like, What did I even do?

Were you an SVU fan before you did the show, Book This?

Have you watched it before?

For sure. It was one of the things I was always on. I think my parents would fall asleep to it. It would always just be on the TV. So I'm pretty sure that I might have, because when I was in New York, I was also diving into background work. I would do it at any chance I got so that I could be on set, learn, and watch these big actors and how everything worked, right? And I'm almost certain that I had done background on SVU when, when I was in New York. And so there's, there's kind of like a full circle moment that happened. And the day we shot my final scene, which was the outdoor scene where Mariska comes while I'm working and hands me the note from Ian, I had like a night, like a pretty nice trailer, but it's like on the streets

in New York. And I was just like, you know, like it was just one of those like step back moments. Like, this is so cool. Like this is, this is life I dreamed of, you know, this is the work I want to be doing. But like, there's little check marks that I feel like as a performer and actor that are invisibly there and you don't even know they're your goals until you reach them. And so like, I'm like, cool, you know, this is great.

What other memories do you have from like shooting on the streets of New York, shooting in the gyms, being on the stand, like any kind of Peter Scanovino moments, any other.

Tidbits you'd love to share?

I mean, there was a moment in the locker room that, again, the notes were hard. I mean, all the scenes were just, they were all pretty intense in their own way. And so Kelly could see after we finished the locker room scene that I was still like questioning whether or not I'm showing up in the way that is gonna work and look good. And she kind of pulled me aside.

And so that was a moment with her where she just was like, just so you know, every one of us, when it's like our episode, when we get our like arc or our moment, we all leave that day questioning if we know what the hell we're doing and should we just quit or, you know? And so to hear someone in her position say something like that, we're like, hey, it's normal to question every choice you're making because that means you care. And you're trying, right? It was sort of liberating in a way. And that was, I think that was the last scene of a pretty big day, like the day we did the boxing scene. Oh, no, that wasn't even the last scene. It was like we did the actual fight scene, which was like a 28-beat fight,

which Burt was like, why isn't Jesse practicing? You know, they had no idea that I had an action background, which again, to my like, Oh.

They didn't even know about that. Cause I was wondering with like that boxing scene, like, no, no, no.

They didn't. I mean, they, they brought me in as an actor, which was again, such like a, okay, we're, we're heading in the right direction.

Right.

Um, and so they actually did, they had a stunt double for me who did, he ended up doing like the big throw or when they were shooting through the fight happening and they're filming Kelly and, um, Corey over there. So they used him for all that, but they also, one of the doubles job is to get in there, learn the fight, figure out all the beats and then teach it to their actor. And so Brandon came in and showed me some things. We did the stuff. But once, once we were in there, I, you know, I did the fight. They, they're all like, what the fuck? Cause they have no idea what I did. And then even Marisha came up to me after that scene in our next scene. And she's like, that fight scene was amazing.

You know, like, And so like you're getting a little bit credit, a little bit more respect. You're starting to see that you have something to give.

But it's also cooler than coming in and being like, oh, actually, I know this and that and that. Like, it's cooler to, like, go with the flow and then deliver.

Instead of talking about it.

Yeah, but I'm also like.

This happens on Drag Race.

I don't know if you watch Drag Race, but sometimes the queens will come and be like, well, I'm a dancer. And then they'll suck at the rehearsal. And they're like, I thought you said you were a dancer. And then you have the ones that don't say shit. And then all of a sudden, everyone's like, you just get to be more impressed with the people that just show up and deliver than, like, talk about their thing.

Yeah.

Good move. Not setting a standard for yourself and just surprising people.

Well, and you probably had respect for Brandon.

Oh, for sure. You know, like being like, oh yeah, I'm going to like, let you teach, like give you the kind of professional respect.

Yeah.

And there was like a big throw that ends up happening where Luciano, who's my opponent in the scene, actually is a dude that I grew up in New York training with. Like we would pack out a Camry and head to Queens. And yeah, so like we used to train together and parkour stuff and his career as a stunt performer, and I guess he had a line in this one too, has gone, I mean, this is like, we're talking 15 years ago, at least, maybe more. And so it was cool to like come up against Luciano in this fight. And he's like this jacked, gorgeous man, you know, but yeah, so we get thrown into the fight and yeah, we just, I just, there's a throw that he does where he picks me up and tosses me back. I could do it. We're in a, the

ring is fairly soft, but like, I also know to your point, that stunt guys, there's an adjustment. If you end up doing a stunt, you're often given a little bump depending on how dangerous that stunt is. And a lot of times the stunt coordinators are not able to give you that adjustment because most of the bad stuff happens in rehearsals, but you can't give adjustments on rehearsals most of the time because production's like, we're not, what do you mean? He got thrown, you got hit into the wall 15 times. It's just part of our job to practice before we get there. And then on the day, there's usually a budget that can be allotted for how many times a performer has to do something on camera.

So I also know that, right? So I'm like, I don't need to do the throw. I've had a couple of doubles now in my career. I'm like, let them work, let them cook, you know, let them get their money. And It's not going to make.

Because also, like, even if you can do it, you can't lose a tooth.

Like, you're in the middle of shoes.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, that would be crazy.

And I need.

On that show, I need all the time I can get, too. If I'm not in the ring, then I'm still running the next scene. Because again, this is like, it was a 24, 48-hour turnaround based on when I even got the audition. And so, I use all that to my advantage. And so, yeah, he did amazing. And I was able to get in there and crush the fight. And it was amazing to be in that set because Bert, it's one of my favorite, because he really was able to build it out. It wasn't on the stages. It wasn't just in the streets. This was like a space they had really created. And so I loved just sitting there and there's like all these smokers, just old people that don't give a crap about what's happening. The guy that

like rings the bell immediately is just kind of reading a magazine and Burt filmed that. I was just loving when we were out on the street. I think the next real story that I think you guys would love and needs to be told because Mariska is such a G is we do this scene and. It is our last scene up. Actually, I'll backtrack to the fight scene. And one thing that Mariska gave me, a little gift. As an actor, you're always trying to come back to yourself. You're always trying to find your own voice, stop acting, and be as real as humanly possible.

And when cameras are on and you're in situations that are foreign to you or yourself, it's sometimes hard to do that. And so even in that last scene, I think we were on her coveraged. And she just, she was like, hey, and this is her, right? She's always looking to get better. She's always looking to pull more out of others. She looks at me and she just goes, let's just do this one as Jessie and Mariska, you know, fuck it.

She's like, what?

And then she, I don't know if you know her, watch it, watch this thing. Watch this, watch this. She walks back and then, you know, we come out, we do it. And then after that one, she goes, eh, better, huh? And so like, I mean, She's a teacher. And so to carry that same thought into our final scene together, we do that outside scene where she gives me the letter from Ian. And there's, you know, there's again, directorial notes.

I just want you to stare at Mariska, you know, as an actor or even a person. When I storytell or I'm thinking, a lot of times my eyes are going down. I'm looking for the thoughts or I'm seeing the world mostly. So when this thing is happening, you know, they just wanted me to like kind of lock eyes and really try to hold it as long as possible, which is an interesting thing. exercise in itself, because if you're feeling these feelings and my tendencies are to hide and tuck that stuff away, sometimes it's almost harder to battle yourself to like, keep that moment there as long as possibly before you just like, I can't do it anymore.

And so we, we have this, the scene, it goes good. And she just, that's Jesse's wrapped. Hey, everybody claps. It's cold. It might even be raining at this point. She's got more to do. she could have very easily just like, thank you.

Walked away.

Instead. She like, she hung back. People are packing up. She gets real close. Like we're talking like very close to me. And she just, she, she starts like having this really amazing heart to heart about, you know, I saw your tape. I can, I can see the type of vulnerable energy that you have as a human and that you bring to your work. I don't know if you train Meisner, but I could see how well you listened and responded. Um, And she just started to like, have this really intimate, like, I see you, keep doing your thing. Remember to come back to yourself. But it was like, you know, as the social media guy, I got 2 million followers online. I'm always playing that game.

How do I promote? What's the thing I can do? There's that guy in me that wanted to ask for the photo. That was like the moment I was having right before she approached me to have this heart to heart. And I was like, that was the biggest gift you could have given me. was showing me that someone that's done 27 seasons of this show, it confused me. I literally talked to the PAs afterwards. I was like, is she that giving with everyone? I'm not the only guest star on this episode. Is she doing this with every actor that comes on board? And they had told me the story on Christmas, she gives out between $ 500 and $ 800 gift cards to every single person, PA, everyone on set.

And I'm like, So she is thoughtful. She is giving. But to give your time and your knowledge to someone who, again, at the end of the day, is sort of just a day player, right? That's an episode player. Just felt like a lesson that if I'm ever in the position of series regular, which I'm certain I will be at some point because that's who I am as a person, that I can offer that same amount of intimate, energetic givingness.

I don't know.

That's not a word, but.

Like mentorship, really.

I mean, she's obviously been at it for 30 years, you know?

Yeah.

That's amazing. Wow.

And you have so many upcoming. Like, you've had such a busy year. A couple years.

I'm grinding, baby. You know the dream?

Yeah, what's double? I saw on your Instagram, Double Trouble. Yeah.

It's coming out soon. I just got back from L.A. yesterday, last night, from the premiere of Double Trouble, which is a really fun.

Where do you live?

I live in Wilmington, California.

Oh, that's where you're full-time?

Unless the casting directors are watching this, then I live in New York.

Then I'm local to Los Angeles.

Or New York. Or Kentucky or whatever you want to say.

And it's like annoying. I get for them it's security, but it's like everyone's desperate. They'll make it. No, we'll make it. It's like, we'll make it.

It's kind of brutal out here as an actor in that regard. There's still shows that'll fly you out for big enough roles. But that's why if anyone, I got a lot of comments online about, I don't understand. Wouldn't they fly you? It was because I essentially lied and said I was local, right? So I did lie. I'm just going to say it. No, but that's where we are.

And so even filming the slate for that Law & Order episode, before I finished the slate, I said, I reached out to my agent. I was like, so I'm supposed to say that I'm in New York, right? She was like, yes, from New York. And knowing that they're in a rush and that this might be a thing. And so, yeah. So that was... part of it and we we again we i guess we didn't still tell them yes until they knew i was ticket in hand which almost was still a mess up but yeah anyway so yeah i'm uh i'm in wilmington north carolina i was just in la double trouble we premiered it at the warner brothers lot it's produced by esx entertainment it's a really cool jewel heist christmas film it's almost like oceans 11 meets.

That's another genre I'm into.

Home Alone. So it is a little bit younger. I think that 15-year-old range will really get a lot out of it. Because the girls, the McGraw sisters, Madeline and Violet, they're horror queens right now. But they're younger ones.

Your character looks cool as fuck. He's fun.

His name is Zane. What's really cool about him, he's like Merv and the other dude in Home Alone. They're the henchmen. And They're not the smartest guys. And so we had people tell us, including the McGraw's mother, they're like, you guys stole the show. And it's because we're just like comedic, physical comedy relief. There's a huge kitchen fight that's actually really badass.

But you and this guy are like, you guys are like the wet bandits if they were jacked. Yeah, exactly.

We're the muscle, but we're not the smartest.

Yeah.

Sharpest tools in the shed.

But it looks fucking cool.

This was so awesome. I was so glad to get the story behind the viral video.

Yeah, thank you.

I mean, that was so fun to talk to him. It was cool to talk to somebody that's actually had to have like the, I mean, he had this viral video obviously of like the, but to walk us through just like the pressure of like getting apart, having to fly there. Like they're not going to get you on the flight. Like there's all this, like everybody, I don't know.

I don't think people realize how crazy it is to get cast on one of these shows.

It's always such a fast process.

Dude, and they just know we're desperate and it's going to get worse and worse. Like, you know, all these people from Netflix have been fired. All these people from, like, that are combining back and off.

Like, they're getting rid of people.

Like, who knows what we're going to, like, who knows what this industry is going to look like and what's up. Like, even now, NBC, huge show, huge money, huge everything. And it's just like, will I make it for this thing? Like, it is, it is just crazy.

Yeah. And we're going to do it.

Yeah, because.

We love it. Right. You've got to take them.

You've got to take your shot or whatever.

Lin-Manuel Miranda. If they.

I just... They just have so much... I just, like, can't. We can't spiral. Let's just think about... This amazing episode of child molestation and trauma.

I'm just like so horrified about everything you told me about the WWE. Like I obviously knew Vince McMahon was a monster, but I just like didn't know all of these details. And wow, that was, you know, harrowing. The shit in the hair, right? I don't love that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is wild because it's like no matter all the horrors we talk about, like there are just some things that hit.

Extra like hard or gross or different.

But it's not like, like I've talked about people that have mummified people and kept them in their homes.

But yet this also, it was just hard to hear. It's like kind of, it's wild.

Yeah.

Living victims.

Yeah. Well, not the mummies.

The mummies. The mummies are dead, dead, dead.

Yeah.

Wait, okay.

So Jennifer Lawrence's beauty brand, I haven't heard it said out loud.

Is it M-E-S? Is it May? Is it Mess? Like what is, how do you pronounce it? It's mess.

Mess.

But it's just like you tricked us by getting on Instagram thinking, oh, fun. J-Law's now on Insta. And it's like, of course, there was a ploy to sell hair care. And then the ad campaign, I don't know. I'm obviously like.

A big fan of hers.

Is it hair care?

Because I thought, I read it was a beauty brand and I honestly had like no idea what kind of beauty.

So it's hair.

Yeah, it's three hair products. And it's like, she's tested 150,000. She need it. Like, it's not, it's like the, it's being like, it's not just like every other celeb beauty brand.

But it's like, I don't know, because you talk to a scientist. Like, I don't know. I just feel....

But I wonder if everyone's getting the ad campaign the way I am, because I am a big fan of hers. It's like, I'm getting every interview, every push, every photo. Like, I am— she' s doing so many photo shoots. And her hair is great. I mean, she's one of the best famous people of our time, I feel.

Yeah, and her hair looks great. But something about, yes, is just like— I don't know.

It was like, Jennifer Aniston did the hairline, and they sponsored our podcast once.

Is it still happening? But she has tons of different ones at all times. Like they come and go.

I don't, yeah, I don't know. I guess have a business, have a business, whatever.

I don't know why I feel like I have to have feelings about it. I just feel like if you're going to have it, just have it. But this thing of like. And it's not like everything else. And it's, I know this seems bad. Like, it's like, you know what I mean? I'm not articulating well, but. She's being very cool girl about it. Like, I know this is crazy.

I'm doing this.

Like, I've seen some of the memes and the quotes where she's like trying to get rich off a beauty brand. Like, it's like, you know, jumping off a yacht onto a door or something like that.

You know, like she's. funny or whatever.

And I saw Get Ready With Me where she was doing her hair and I didn't even like put it together that it was.

I was being influenced.

I didn't even put it together it was like for her hair stuff because it was just her not speaking, putting something in her hair.

But at the end of the day, am I eventually going to buy some of the... products that Hudson Williams has been advertising and is the global ambassador for absolutely I found some I'm not allergic to no but because I like the idea of it it's like if it's low maintenance product that you put in and it gives you texture and fun and it's like that's cool I just yeah just.

Curious these kind of products are just funny to me because there's just like 12 million types of hair and like I just don't think that the little spritz that one girl puts in her hair to like keep it fresh and textured for like the day is not going to work on the next girl's hair.

Do you know what I mean? Like, or is going to look crazy.

And so I just always find it interesting when it's like, this will work for everyone.

It's like, my hair is so different than so many people, but. She just has such good style.

Okay.

So it's an intensive repair mask. You can wear anytime, anywhere for dry hair.

Off duty. Now I'm doing ads for mess. Okay.

Off duty restyling serum. So it's a serum that's for his research. China reshapes yesterday's style. Or Good Roots Volume Mist, a volumizing spray that reduces scalp oiliness and lasting lift.

I mean, these sound great. Let's see. I'm obsessed. Watch Lisa buy them in real time. I'm so embarrassed.

I'm like, the ad is working. At the end of the day, it's working, but I'm pissed. Key ingredients. I need all the ingredients, babe. I need them all if you feel full ingredients.

Yeah, I know.

I need the key. I need the extras.

I need the background actors that are ingredients.

Yeah, I can't do it. She is just so beautiful.

I don't know. She also just seems cool.

You know, she just seems like one you'd want to hang out with.

She seems like a cool girl.

She seems like a really cool girl. These bottles are cool, but there's something about it where I'm like, piss.

Why don't we just ask the Tommies? If anybody tries the mess... Let us know your review.

Yeah.

And also include what kind of hair you have. And maybe we'll give it a shot. I'm always down to kind of try something.

Well, if we're doing this, let me know if you have tried any of the Centella Skin 1004 products that Hudson's doing ads for.

Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm curious.

Because I hear Korean beauty brands, you know, they like use less.

Yeah. Like it's better.

Right.

Oh, I did watch the first two episodes of Yaga. I did pay for AMC +.

Oh, what was your review? I don't have one yet. I'm like fine with it. I'm into it. I'm intrigued. I'm happy.

And like, since I read the play, I like being like that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where like you point your finger when you recognize something from the thing.

Love it. I do get really excited about it.

Oh, God.

Listen, you'll have to stay tuned for next week for all the Halloween recaps.

Oh, yes.

Halloween. It's going to be fun. I did a.

John Hill thing event at SiriusXM. They have this, like, room within a room that's clear. And all of a sudden, special Broadway guest comes in to sing.

Do you want to guess who it is? Former guest on the pod? Laura Benanti?

Yeah. No, Orfe. Orfe!

Orfe came in and sang a song for John Hill and then left into the night.

But, you know, obviously a thrill.

And I would have brought a best for you, but because of the divorce, like, I just was like, I don't know.

So I just kept my mouth shut. I kept my mouth shut.

But I knew there was, her life has very much changed since she's been on our podcast.

But wish her the best. Wish her the best. Yeah, of course.

Sounds like she's thriving. She's performing with John Hill. Yeah. Love it.

I sent John Hill a video the other day.

I saw the most unhinged video and I was like, this seems like something you would post. And I sent it to him and he was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed with this. I was like, yeah, you have a very recognizable brand. Yeah, we were part of a show called The Freak Show. Okay, let's get to our What Would Sister Peg Do segment where we recommend you guys a book, an organization, a doc, something to give you more information about what we talked about in today's episode.

And today I wanted to point you guys to the Netflix docuseries, Mr.

McMahon.

Vince McMahon is actually interviewed in the series, but he halted further interviews after the sexual allegations came out. Shock. If you want to know more about this horrible man, head over to Netflix. Or if you want to like, you know... Show your boyfriend, like, this is who supports the WWE. If he's a big WWE guy, ruin his WWE dreams and show him the Mr.

McMahon doc.

And that will be linked in our show notes and will be shared on a story the day this comes out. And then all of our What Would Sister Peg Do stories are saved in a highlight on our Instagram page. That's messed up pod called WWSPD. That's where we put all of those in case you're It's the holiday season in case you're looking to give some money to some organizations and you're like, what was that place that they talked about? Just scroll back in some of our stories on our highlight. Thank you so much for that.

And next week we will be doing part 33, season 20, episode 14. So thank you all for listening. I hope you have an amazing Halloween filled with all the best candies.

I mean, Halloween will be done by the time this comes out. Oh, I hope you have a great Halloween. I hope you're wishing that to me and Casey. And please vote. Go out and vote. Even if you haven't made a plan to vote yet, just please. We really, really need people to vote in these midterms.

Love ya.

Bye.

That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at thatsmesseduppod at gmail.com. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at thatsmesseduppod and follow us personally at Cara Clank and at Glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien, and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain.

And to our mixer, John Bradley, and our guest booker, Patrick Kottner. And to Henry Kapurski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgariff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media. Dun-dun!

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